Stat modiers and you

[MrWizard]

For those contemplating min/max or generalists builds, here are how the stats work to the best of my knowledge. This is in response to people gimping builds thinking these things worked different than they really do.


Hit Points - +1 con modifer will equal 14 hit points at 14th level. That is all, no more, no less. The difference between a 14 con and a 18 con to start will be 28 hit points at 14th level.

Spell points - For the stat that relates to spell points, each modifier you will get (9 + level) extra spell points. At 14th level this is 23 (9+14) per '+' of the stat modifier. The difference between a 14 (+2) and an 18 (+4) stat (int/cha/wisdom) at 14 will get you 46 spell points.
(9+14 level)= 23. 23 * 2 (14 stat) =46, 23*4 (18 stat) = 92. 46 spell point difference.

AC- your dex bonus only allows the modifier to add to your AC as long as you are not wearing any armor. If wearing armor, the armor will list the max dex bonus allowed.

Each +1 modifier will add +1 to any relevant dice roll - Examples.... Dex, con, and wisdom will add 1 to your save for each +1. Spell casters will add +1 to their DCs for an opponent to save versus their spells for each +1 mod.

Class based enhancements - If you muli class, class based enhancements are not only based on amount of action points spent, but also on the level of the class. You will not be able to advance enhancements with lower side of your multi class which can cause gimping.

Spell Penetration - Only your caster level, SPell pen items, feats, and enhancments matter to this roll. 1d20 + caster level + item/feat/enhancemnt. No stat modifiers are added to this, ever.

Skill points - Intelligence modifier directly influences your skill points per level. Only your base intelligence, not including items or buffs. Each class has a base amount of skill points per level (2-8 points) + the intel modifier. At creation this is multiplied by 4.

Skill Checks/ranks- Your stat modifiers (+ or -) will be added to your total ranks for a skill check roll. Also Items, enhancements, feats, and buffs will add to this too. Total base rank can only be "your level +3" before any additions. For some skills there is not a roll, either your skill is high enough or you fail (such as to search for a trap) or to 'spot' something or someone.


I will add more info as flames or discussions or questions develop to clear up things for others.

[Impaqt]

AC- your dex bonus only allows a max of +6 to ac (it may be five, I forgot, anyone?).

Incorrect.

There is no limit to dex benefits to AC. There are ARMOR limits that limit how much dex you can apply to your AC, but these can be overcome with Enhancements and Items as well.

If you wear Robes, and have a 36 Dexterity, your Base AC without Sheilds, items, or any extras is 23(10Base +13SDex =23)

[Zenako]

OK, for some aspects of the stats you are correct but for example, with a Spell Casting Stat, the DC goes up by the Modifier as well, which compounds the benefit. More Spell points with spells that hit the target better (ie monster fails its saving throw). So the combined effect is where the power of those builds come into play. (you do note this effect at the end, but I feel it is a pretty important benefit).

For DEX and AC, that limit only applies when you are wearing Armor that limits the Max Dex Benefit. Some Armors like Certain Robes have no Dex Limit. But Dex also affects you attack skill with ranged attacks as well.

For All stats, the modifier in place will affect your SKILLS too. Some of those can be pretty significant to the build.

There is a lot of synergy with stats and how they affect gameplay.

I do agree however that some players do sweat the details too much. Does it really matter if you hit the monster with the spell 80% of the time instead of 85%? One times in 20 attempts will it make a difference. Both are pretty effectively cast spells.

There are however a few skills where no roll happens. You either have the skill level to spot the trap, or you do not, you either have the skill level to search for the trap or you do not. For things like that, where the chances of success are 100% or 0%, every point can matter, sometimes a lot.

[MrWizard]

yep..what was I thinking about ac...hmmm

[MrWizard]

OK, for some aspects of the stats you are correct but for example, with a Spell Casting Stat, the DC goes up by the Modifier as well, which compounds the benefit. More Spell points with spells that hit the target better (ie monster fails its saving throw). So the combined effect is where the power of those builds come into play. (you do note this effect at the end, but I feel it is a pretty important benefit).

For DEX and AC, that limit only applies when you are wearing Armor that limits the Max Dex Benefit. Some Armors like Certain Robes have no Dex Limit. But Dex also affects you attack skill with ranged attacks as well.

For All stats, the modifier in place will affect your SKILLS too. Some of those can be pretty significant to the build.

There is a lot of synergy with stats and how they affect gameplay.

I do agree however that some players do sweat the details too much. Does it really matter if you hit the monster with the spell 80% of the time instead of 85%? One times in 20 attempts will it make a difference. Both are pretty effectively cast spells.

There are however a few skills where no roll happens. You either have the skill level to spot the trap, or you do not, you either have the skill level to search for the trap or you do not. For things like that, where the chances of success are 100% or 0%, every point can matter, sometimes a lot.

I was not trying to tell people how to build or why, but to give people a general understanding of what the stats can do and not do for you. No opinion, just facts (as much as I want to give an opinion...lol)

The skills were about skill point totals for leveling, but I added another section for skill checks. :cool:

Dont know why I was screwed up on the dex thing....

[Impaqt]

[I
Skill points - Intelligence modifier directly influences your skill points per level. Only your base intelligence, not including items or buffs. Each class has a base amount of skill points per level (2-8 points) + the intel modifier. At first level this is multiplied by a number depending on class (x2-x6).


Its always x4 at Creation, there is no variation to this by class. And its "At Creation" Not "1st Level" Many people when Multiclassing thinkthat no matter where their first level of Rogue is, they are going toget the X4 for that level.

[GrayOldDruid]

There are however a few skills where no roll happens. You either have the skill level to spot the trap, or you do not, you either have the skill level to search for the trap or you do not. For things like that, where the chances of success are 100% or 0%, every point can matter, sometimes a lot.

Pretty sure both Spot and Search there are rolls. They are hidden, but there is a roll. Could a Dev clarify this? Is there a roll or not?


Its always x4 at Creation, there is no variation to this by class. And its "At Creation" Not "1st Level" Many people when Multiclassing thinkthat no matter where their first level of Rogue is, they are going toget the X4 for that level.

to clarify:

Skill Points - INT modifier directly influences your skill points per level. Skill Points = INT Modifier + (2-8 depending on class) ; only at character creation - aka level 1 - this total is multiplied by 4.

[Zenako]

Pretty sure both Spot and Search there are rolls. They are hidden, but there is a roll. Could a Dev clarify this? Is there a roll or not?


Pretty sure there is no roll involved per se, or else you could eventually succeed at finding the secret door or trap or trapbox.

What does happen is what is called an opposed check. Your Spot / Search vs the Hide level of the target. If the Trap box is assigned a Hide value of 20, then you need to have a Search Value that hits that or more. You can have a 19 and never succeed. The reason you see rogue often trying again is they are remembering to equip more gear, or drink or pot, or trigger a boost and try again. First try normal skill, second try equip standing gear, third try hit a boost and get normal spells, 4th try add in some potions or consumables to pump the value even more (Heroism for example) and rehit the boosts. Looks like rolling, but really all they are doing is moving up the total skill level until they find the point of success.

When you SPOT hidden enemies, you are comparing your Spot skill vs their Hide Skill. Listen vs Move Silent. With a good Listen skill I often see noise of footsteps flashing on the ground with my scout. That is why spiders and certain mobs often find hidden party members, from the NOISE of their footsteps, not seeing them. Which is why my scout also has substantial ranks in Move Silent and Listen skills. It can be VERY useful being able to enter the enemy camp, scout it out and return all without alerting the mobs in it of your presense at all.

[Impaqt]

Pretty sure both Spot and Search there are rolls. They are hidden, but there is a roll. Could a Dev clarify this? Is there a roll or not?
THere is no roll.. Of if you want to get technical, the DM is Giving us a 10.... So all Spot/Search checks are 10 Higher than our discovered Marks. DD and OL get a roll of course.



to clarify:

Skill Points - INT modifier directly influences your skill points per level. Skill Points = INT Modifier + (2-8 depending on class) ; only at character creation - aka level 1 - this total is multiplied by 4.
My comment was in regards to "At first level this is multiplied by a number depending on class (x2-x6)."

More comments within

[MrWizard]

Thanks for the comments, updated the notes so far.

again, this is just an attempt to explain to new people how some things work, not how to plan a build or 'which way is best'

(although it is hard to not add notes to that effect.)

[Darconeious]

On constitution ,
Is it - hit dice+ level+ modifier+ base constitution ?
On every level you advance?

On str - will that apply to your attack and damage?
If so would that be x3 on a critical with a x3 weap such as a great axe?

And on critical threat range- imp crit drops that range by 1, what else can be used to drop the crit threat range that stacks?
And how can you get more crit to apply? I know lowering the threat range is good , but how can you do this other than imp crit? Oh and weapon, clarify , how do you get a great axe from 19 to 17 or even 15 that's what I would like to see 15 :)
I like it when crts hit back to back to back, but it's so situational. How can you be more consistent ?
I need to know!

[Fejj]

Its Alive!!!!!!

Nice three year necro!!!

[Iwinbyrollup]

That's an old post you've bumped there. :)

In terms of answers:

HP. At level 1, you gain 20 HP (from a free feat given to all characters called Heroic Durability) + class Hit Dice + Constitution modifier + 3 HP if you have Toughness. That means that a Rogue with 14 CON who takes Toughness at level 1 will end up with 20 + 6 + 2 + 3, or 31 HP. On the other hand, a Drow Rogue with 6 CON and no Toughness will end up with 20 + 6 - 2, or 24 HP.

For each subsequent level, the amount you gain is class Hit Dice + Constitution modifier + 1 HP if you have Toughness. So our 14 Con rogue gets 6 + 2 + 1 for 9 HP (40 total) at level 2, while the 6 Con rogue gets 6 - 2 for 4 HP (28 total) at level 2. Adding Racial Toughness/Class Toughness enhancements can also increase HP, as does False Life and CON-boosting equipment.

Strength applies to attack and damage unless a) you have the Weapon Finesse feat and are using a Weapon Finesse weapon, in which case attack uses Dexterity and damage uses Strength, or b) you're using a ranged weapon, in which case attack uses Dexterity and damage doesn't get a boost unless you have the Bow Strength feat, which makes Strength modifier apply to damage.

All boosts to damage from Strength modifier IS multiplied on critical. So, if you have a Strength score of 30, you have a Strength modifier of +10. This means that on a critical with a Greataxe, your Strength adds an extra 30 damage to the attack.

Regarding Improved Critical: in terms of a Greataxe, it does drop the critical threat range by 1, but that's not technically what Improved Critical is doing. Technically, it doubles the critical threat range. So, with a weapon that only criticals on a 20 (like a Greataxe), it will instead critical on a 19 or a 20. Take a weapon like a Falchion, which has a standard critical threat range of 18-20, and with Improved Critical you'll see Falchions getting criticals on 15-20.

Weapons have a Keen effect, and notably, this does NOT stack with Improved Critical. Such weapons can be great at lower levels when you won't have the Imp Crit feat but are not useful on characters that have it.

In terms of other things that increase the critical threat range...there are a few class effects that do so and that's about it. The Fighter Kensai Weapon Mastery III, for example, increases the critical threat range of the character's chosen weapon by 1. The only other thing that comes to mind is a Paladin's Exalted Smite. If you have Exalted Smite IV, using an Exalted Smite attack will add a +2 to your critical threat range (so, with a Greataxe and Imp Crit, it would be 17-20) as well as +2 to the critical multiplier (so x5 rather than x3). Note that this particular ability only applies on the specific Exalted Smite attack. There may be others besides those two, but I can't think of any offhand. Notably, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker does not increase the threat range (at least I don't think it does, correct me if I'm wrong) but does increase the critical multiplier--while raging, the multiplier on a Greataxe would jump to x5.

I can't think of any way to get the critical threat range of a Greataxe to 15-20. I think there's a reason for that, and it's that it would be super overpowered. For evidence of its overpowered-ness, consider the Epic Sword of Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sword_of_Shadow). It has a x3 multiplier (like a Greataxe) but has the critical threat range of a Falchion. With Imp Crit, that's a 15-20 weapon with a x3 multiplier. Now imagine that with a Paladin Exalted Smite IV...crits on 13-20, x5 multiplier. Oh, and of course, don't forget that the weapon is 5d6 + 10.

[PopeJual]

Its Alive!!!!!!

Nice three year necro!!!

That was a thoroughly long nap for this thread, but all of the information in the thread is still 100% accurate, so there isn't a big problem with the necro in this case.

For Darconeious's questions - at each level, you get +maxed out hit die (8 HP for Rangers, 10 HP for Fighters, etc.) + Con modifier (and any changes to Con will have a retroactive change to your total HP). Your base Con and your level don't have any direct effect on your HP except in how they determine the number of hit dice you have and the amount of your Con modifier (e.g. +4 for an 18 Con, etc).

For the Strength question - you get +1 to hit for every 2 points of Strength above 10 that you have. That is replaced by your Dex modifier if you have Weapon Finesse AND your Dex modifier is greater than your Str. modifier AND you are weilding a finesse weapon. Your Str. modifier is added directly to your base damage for the first damage number that you see floating above your opponents' heads. That modifier is also multiplied for critical hits just like the Seeker bonus is multiplied for critical hits. Unlike Seeker bonuses, the Strength modifier also applies to "normal" hits as well.

Improved Crit does not improve your crit range by 1. It doubles your crit range. The same thing happens with Keen and Impact modifiers on your weapon, but Keen/Impact does not stack with Improved Crit. That means a Rapier will go from 18-20/x2 to 15-20/x2 and a Khopesh will go from 19-20/x3 to 17-20/x3 with the appropriate Improved Critical feat (or Keen).

You can also improve your crit range with a single weapon type with the Kensai III prestige enhancement. Additionally, if you cast Hold Person or Hold Monster or you use Stunning Blow successfully on an opponent, they will be put into an autocrit situation where every hit that you make will count as a critical hit and you will hit on a 2+ no matter what your To Hit bonus or their AC is. Heavy Picks are a lof of fun when your opponent is under an autocrit condition.

[dkyle]

Major necro, but what the heck...


On constitution ,
Is it - hit dice+ level+ modifier+ base constitution ?
On every level you advance?

No base constitution. Just hit die (max value) + CON mod (including all bonuses) + 1 for each Toughness feat per level. You also get some base HP that is not per level: 20 extra for everyone, extra from items (30 from GFL, 20 from a Toughness item, others).


On str - will that apply to your attack and damage?
If so would that be x3 on a critical with a x3 weap such as a great axe?

Yes, STR mod adds to attack and damage.

The damage bonus is part of the damage that is multiplied on crits (x3 on a Great axe). Some other damage that is multiplied: weapon's enhancement bonus, damage die, power attack damage.


And on critical threat range- imp crit drops that range by 1, what else can be used to drop the crit threat range that stacks?

Imp Crit doubles the size of the threat range, which means going from 20 to 19-20 on Great Axes. Falchions go from 18-20 to 15-20.


And how can you get more crit to apply? I know lowering the threat range is good , but how can you do this other than imp crit? Oh and weapon, clarify , how do you get a great axe from 19 to 17 or even 15 that's what I would like to see 15 :)

Easiest way is to use a Falchion instead of a Great Axe. The only way to crit on a 17 with a Great Axe is to use a Carnifex (it has a 19-20 base crit range, plus Keen, which makes it 17-20). There used to be a Barbarian enhancement called Crit Rage which expanded crit threat range, but that's no longer available, having been replaced by Frenzied Berserker, which instead increases crit multiplier on 19s and 20s.

A 15-20 crit range with a Great Axe is impossible (at least, not continuously), althout Kensai III could get 16-20 using a Carnifex, and anyone can get 15-20 using the greatsword Sword of Shadow.


I like it when crts hit back to back to back, but it's so situational. How can you be more consistent ?

Use Stunning Blow, or run with a caster holding things. Either will let you automatically crit the enemy.

Other than that, it's just luck of the attack rolls.

[MrWizard]

yea, I am nowhere near the concise and detailed writer of strategy or information threads that a large number of people are here, this was my best attempt at some of it.
One of these days I will redo it a bit better.

I just remembered as a new player that all of this was rather confusing and not all in one place.

[Darconeious]

Thanks alot everyone I know it's an old post but I liked the info in there, was just abit foggy on the points of constitution and strength and threw in the crit range for fun cause I was still alittle unknown in that topic also.
As a fighter I have put together for the most part a min/max build focusing on str and con as main stats with some into dex dumping everything else.
At lv 12 this toon can really put out some really impressive damage but only if the roll are going my way which tends to go my way more than expected, thus spoiling me in a good fight and ticking me off when I can't get a crit when really needed, and was why I was asking about it , looking for that edge. Currently I'm useing a +3 seeker 6 PG, with PA on in a decent group I can flash some pretty impressive damage numbers accross the screen. Bigest problem I have so far , are not enough HP to sustain a really tough battle , if things go my way it works out nice but if not well I die alot
I have no toughness feats so far but will address this in the next few lvs. I have currently 232 HP and that's obviously not enough.
Thanks for all the replies
And sry for bring up an old post

[MrWizard]

Thanks alot everyone I know it's an old post but I liked the info in there, was just abit foggy on the points of constitution and strength and threw in the crit range for fun cause I was still alittle unknown in that topic also.
As a fighter I have put together for the most part a min/max build focusing on str and con as main stats with some into dex dumping everything else.
At lv 12 this toon can really put out some really impressive damage but only if the roll are going my way which tends to go my way more than expected, thus spoiling me in a good fight and ticking me off when I can't get a crit when really needed, and was why I was asking about it , looking for that edge. Currently I'm useing a +3 seeker 6 PG, with PA on in a decent group I can flash some pretty impressive damage numbers accross the screen. Bigest problem I have so far , are not enough HP to sustain a really tough battle , if things go my way it works out nice but if not well I die alot
I have no toughness feats so far but will address this in the next few lvs. I have currently 232 HP and that's obviously not enough.
Thanks for all the replies
And sry for bring up an old post

get toughness asap...
3+ level (12th) = 15
opens enhancements, racial and normal, for 10 hp each, total of 60 to 70 hp at 20th level. I would assume at least 3 or 4 at your level for 40 Hit points.
That is 55 hit points altogether.
A good con of at least 15 would help.
False life item
A con stat item
minos helm from necro/orchard for 20 more

this should get you a good 100 or more...and is needed.

[Darconeious]

get toughness asap...
3+ level (12th) = 15
opens enhancements, racial and normal, for 10 hp each, total of 60 to 70 hp at 20th level. I would assume at least 3 or 4 at your level for 40 Hit points.
That is 55 hit points altogether.
A good con of at least 15 would help.
False life item
A con stat item
minos helm from necro/orchard for 20 more

this should get you a good 100 or more...and is needed.
First of all , thank you so very much!
2- my race is dwarf, I started my con at 16, 1 racial, 2 tome, 3 item so far for 22 con un buffed
3- I do have a false life item for +20
I took alot of offensive feat at first to kill quick which for the most part worked well on norm , hard alittle tougher on elite but the only difference i had was on swings , norm lots of one swing kills, and hard 2-3 swings per kill ,on elite 3-5 swings per kill, at present lv they fight back lol
Any ways thanks again , I will check often the info in this thread , it is most valuable