Fleeing mobs

[The_Phenx]

Just curious if the fix is in to alter the hittable area on fleeing mobs so they can be hit from behind again?

[Oreg]

That would be nice.

[Mad_Bombardier]

It would make Spring Attack useful again. "Check it out, I'm getting my full to-hit on this guy while running. Wait a sec, why am I not getting to-hit rolls at all?!?" :(

[Xaymaca]

Yeah, this is a big problem. I find that if I get up next to the mob, and swing, I get a to-hit roll.

[The_Phenx]

Dev Responce? is this being worked on?

[TKnor]

Yeah, this is a big problem. I find that if I get up next to the mob, and swing, I get a to-hit roll.

Heheh, yeah. Right now it's like a mean-spirited foot race where the participants have to run along side each other to bat their opponents in the knees.

I found that's the only way to really get them while they're fleeing. 'course, they flee away from you so as soon as you're along side them you've got only a second to bat them before they start running away from you again.

[Mercules]

Funny... I pull out a ranged weapon and they drop dead. It would be nice if I didn't -have- to do that, but in the meantime you can alter your own tactics instead of chasing them around. :)

[In_Like_Flynn]

I've found the only way I can hit a fleeing mob is to anticipate where the mob will be. I do this by running right behind the mob, pressed against it. The hits are still, at best, occasional.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Funny... I pull out a ranged weapon and they drop dead. It would be nice if I didn't -have- to do that, but in the meantime you can alter your own tactics instead of chasing them around. :)Just because there are workarounds doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the problem. In most cases, I also choose to not chase. Wait for it to stop, then go killit. But, with Tempest I enhancement coming and me taking Spring Attack as a prereq, I'd like to actually be able to get an attack roll while running. ;)

[The_Phenx]

I bounce all over the place with spring attack. If you have a good enough jump the fun thing to do is smack the guy about two or three times in the face.. then hop over him smack him in the back... then run in circles around him while strafing and cutting him from all sides...and repeat.

I almost never get hit doing this. Which is why I was also hoping for just a moving component to mobility as well as the tumbling... since you can't attack while tumbling. +2 to ac while moving +4 while tumbling sorta thing.

That being said... I'm hoping Q or one of the other dev's will just pipe up that they have or are fixing it.
Having a wizzy with a fearsome robe on definately leads to some nasty footraces.

:)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

This has been posted over in "The Dog House" thread. Codog posted a response:


TBD with design. We are aware of the problem --Codog 12/19/2007

So to answer your question, they are looking at it, and are aware.

In the interim, the trick that I have found is that if you can run up alongside them and swing pretty much in front of you while running side-by-side with the mob, you will register hits... or better yet, STOP moving and stop everyone from chasing the mob. If you stop chasing it, it will go a little ways off, then stop and turn around to range you. You may take a ranged attack or two closing in, but it seems that the AI is barfed up such that if you are pursuing it, it will never stop (unless it leashes) because the AI is saying "Run until XX feet separation, then stop and range them"... so that if you are following, it never gets the separation, so it never stops running

[MysticTheurge]

So to answer your question, they are looking at it, and are aware.

Dworkin to the Rescue!

[parvo]

Funny... I pull out a ranged weapon and they drop dead. It would be nice if I didn't -have- to do that, but in the meantime you can alter your own tactics instead of chasing them around. :)

Sure you can change your own tactics. But it still sucks if you've invested two feats for Spring Attack.

[parvo]

This has been posted over in "The Dog House" thread. Codog posted a response:



So to answer your question, they are looking at it, and are aware.

In the interim, the trick that I have found is that if you can run up alongside them and swing pretty much in front of you while running side-by-side with the mob, you will register hits... or better yet, STOP moving and stop everyone from chasing the mob. If you stop chasing it, it will go a little ways off, then stop and turn around to range you. You may take a ranged attack or two closing in, but it seems that the AI is barfed up such that if you are pursuing it, it will never stop (unless it leashes) because the AI is saying "Run until XX feet separation, then stop and range them"... so that if you are following, it never gets the separation, so it never stops running

Most of the mobs that are running should be. I actually think it's good AI for them to never stop. If I saw me charging after myself, I'd run too.

The most messed up AI I see now is caster AI. They mess around way too long before they cast and usually don't get a single spell off before dying.

[Mad_Bombardier]

The most messed up AI I see now is caster AI. They mess around way too long before they cast and usually don't get a single spell off before dying.Or they do their caster animation as you approach, then turn and run and cast in the opposite direction. Sure, it's realistic and much better than casting the spell in our direction outta their bum as they flee. But, the AI needs a little tweaking. Maybe backwards movement while in a casting animation, then turn to flee after the spell goes off.

[BlueLightBandit]

Just because there are workarounds doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the problem.

I suppose the "workarounds" will work in the meantime... you know... because very few mobs drop dead when you sit and complain about them.

The devs are aware of this. They are working on it. There has been no definite response as far as when this will be "fixed".

Come on guys, they don't even let us know the release date of a mod until about a week before it comes out. You'll get the news the same time everybody else on the forum gets it.

[MysticTheurge]

I suppose the "workarounds" will work in the meantime... you know... because very few mobs drop dead when you sit and complain about them.

You clearly don't complain well enough. ;)

[Kreaper]

The devs are aware of this. They are working on it. There has been no definite response as far as when this will be "fixed".



No. They are "looking" at it. There is a difference.

[Hence]

I do not mind them fleeing forever, as long as I could roll to-hit them while Im humping their legs chasing them.

Usually I will have to use my Cleave and Great Cleave attacks to hit them and that completely negates my Spring Attack, which I picked up because we used to be able to hit mobs as they ran.

The problem came when they updated the AI. Somehow the mobs are now in two places at once, we can be stopped by them in one place, but can only hit them in another. I really dislike the AI, mobs do not go after the closest person, or the one with the most agro... they go randomly to different party members, and especially like to attack rogues. It makes no sense, and should be based on either proximity or damage taken.

I hate seeing mummies turn around from me to chase a party member that has not touched them. Further infuriating me because I cannot get a to-hit roll while I chase them.

[Bogenbroom]

The problem came when they updated the AI. Somehow the mobs are now in two places at once, we can be stopped by them in one place, but can only hit them in another. I really dislike the AI, mobs do not go after the closest person, or the one with the most agro... they go randomly to different party members, and especially like to attack rogues. It makes no sense, and should be based on either proximity or damage taken.



Don't know if I'd agree with that across the board. Their behavior should vary depending on their intelligence and personality. Humanoid creatures should go after whoever appears to be the greatest danger. Animals should go after whoever is doing them the most damage. Somethings should coordinate attacks, some should just flail around and do damage where ever it is wholly convenient.

[MysticTheurge]

Somehow the mobs are now in two places at once, we can be stopped by them in one place, but can only hit them in another.

I'm pretty sure we established that player hit-arcs (the collision detection zone for your weapon) lags behind you as your running.

Like it generates the instant you press the button and executes from that point in space, even though you're no longer there.

[The_Phenx]

Sounds about right. BUt they did break it when they fixed the AI.

No complaints about them running... I just wish I could hit them while they were doing so.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm pretty sure we established that player hit-arcs (the collision detection zone for your weapon) lags behind you as your running.

Like it generates the instant you press the button and executes from that point in space, even though you're no longer there.

it does, however, there is a work around, but I've yet to try this on any moving mob. Only statoinary.

you can try this out on barrels and boxes.

If you are running at something to destroy, and you swing, 9/10 times it won't destroy the box and you'll have to swing again now that you are stopped.

If you actually stop moving for a split second, and hit attack at that same point you were going to swing any way, you will actually destroy the box 10/10 times.

It is like player swing arc when moving is actually being done in the square (going back to pnp terms) that we are in instead of actually in front of us where the animation occurs, and only stationary attacks have the weapon in front of us.

This actually works out logcially why we have to pretty much be infront of running mobs to hit them. It does not explain why near side running works also. The swing archs are rather funny. I mean, I've killed kobolds that are to my emediate left or right before swinging a weapon, but my casters can't cast anything at them. really strange.

[The_Phenx]

Still hoping/praying for a responce.

[llevenbaxx]

Sounds about right. BUt they did break it when they fixed the AI.

No complaints about them running... I just wish I could hit them while they were doing so.

Not that its a super great thing but you can run sideways(while facing the mob) next to the fleeing mob and hit them fairly easily. Little coordination required but it does work if you stay even to just a smidge(precise unit of measurement:)) in front of them. This really only works if they are fleeing from fear or taking a straight route to something. By no means 100% but much better than trying to trail them.

[stockwizard5]

I would also mention that this issue makes it nearly impossible to land touch attack spells like Slay Living on a fleeing mob as well.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Most of the mobs that are running should be. I actually think it's good AI for them to never stop. If I saw me charging after myself, I'd run too.

The most messed up AI I see now is caster AI. They mess around way too long before they cast and usually don't get a single spell off before dying.

Well.......they do sometimes get a spell of after dying! :)
Or after being held....etc.

[Emili]

Not that its a super great thing but you can run sideways(while facing the mob) next to the fleeing mob and hit them fairly easily. Little coordination required but it does work if you stay even to just a smidge(precise unit of measurement:)) in front of them. This really only works if they are fleeing from fear or taking a straight route to something. By no means 100% but much better than trying to trail them.

The reason you get no roll while swinging behind the mob is it is actually 3 or 4 steps ahead of where you see them on the server when you take the swing on the client. This is a latency issue. That is why people who look like they're aside them can hit them ... they are actually aside and behind them a little not really aside of them.

There are a few ways to handle running mob.


With SA I will often jump left and right around the mob... the mob slows down because it does not note a focus of agro very well which is airborne.

Run the opposite way the mob is. Should you do this the mob will run back towards to cast or range... this actually is the best solution because in the time they get positioned and start casting or ranging you will be on top of them again.


I hate to break it to those who wish this to be fixed but it possibly may never be as like I said it is the fact we have a game running on two machines and latency will always come into play since the server and clients can never be exactly in sync in a realtime environment... well maybe in 50 years when they have some other means besides electrons moving thru a trace wire on a motherboard?.

[The_Phenx]

It used to work fine tho.

When they fixed the AI back in the day it got broke...

either way.. blech... irritating.

[Missing_Minds]

I hate to break it to those who wish this to be fixed but it possibly may never be as like I said it is the fact we have a game running on two machines and latency will always come into play since the server and clients can never be exactly in sync in a realtime environment... well maybe in 50 years when they have some other means besides electrons moving thru a trace wire on a motherboard?.

Hate to break it to you, but it is not latency. If it were latency, I could not trip the air in front of me and immediately watch the running troll fall down.

What it is, is anti cheat software at work. It was part of the package Turbine picked up with the AI, and they either 1) fix it. 2) leave it alone. Chances are they'll just leave it alone.

[The_Phenx]

Anti cheat? do share

[Missing_Minds]

Anti cheat? do share

It is the same premise that fps use. Person A and Person B are shooting at each other. Person A cheats saying he is actually 5 feet away from where he is at so never gets shot although he is standing right there, and Person B gets owned.

It makes it harder for cheaters to cheat, and more annoying for non cheating players.

[llevenbaxx]

It is the same premise that fps use. Person A and Person B are shooting at each other. Person A cheats saying he is actually 5 feet away from where he is at so never gets shot although he is standing right there, and Person B gets owned.

It makes it harder for cheaters to cheat, and more annoying for non cheating players.

Sounds like a good way to impliment Mirror Image.:)

Is this for sure the case?... and they added it into the game after launch or has it always been there?

[Missing_Minds]

Sounds like a good way to impliment Mirror Image.:)

Is this for sure the case?... and they added it into the game after launch or has it always been there?

I would say it got implemented when Turbine started using AI code that they either bought or leased. This was... Mod 3 or 4? We did not have this issue before then, so that is why I think it is such. You know.. inadvertently it probably added a metric ton to the issue with ranged attacks. *never stopped to think through that one*

[The_Phenx]

Definately added.

I don't remember which mod... but they changed the AI on monsters... This was when they stopped stewing in cloudkills and went for the casters :) And they made mobs flee, including ranged combatants running to get a shot in etc.. (AI Kiting) You guys should remember that.

At this point I swapped cleave for spring attack to compensate and noticed I could no longer hit mobs when running directly behind them.

I kept SA.. just because i like the play style of being able to superball around. But it shure would be nice to be able to attack fleeing mobs with swords again. I can hit them all day with my xbow or throwing weaps.. but still....

If it's not fixed in mod 6 im taking the halfling dragon mark chain.. self healing is ALWAYS nice.
As my new Battle Clizzard has taught me.

Ghinsuu Sushichef
Pyroclastic Flow
Officer of Entropy - Khyber

[Mad_Bombardier]

I would say it got implemented when Turbine started using AI code that they either bought or leased. This was... Mod 3 or 4?Update4.1, IIRC. The one with Cerulean Hills.

[Missing_Minds]

Update4.1, IIRC. The one with Cerulean Hills.

Thought Cerulean came out before Gianthold. Am I just remembering wrong?

[MysticTheurge]

Update4.1, IIRC. The one with Cerulean Hills.


Thought Cerulean came out before Gianthold. Am I just remembering wrong?

I'm about 98% sure that Cerulean Hills and Gianthold were released at exactly the same time (Mod 4.0).

[Mad_Bombardier]

Ok fine, make me look it up... It was Cerulean Hills, but as MT said, that was Mod4.0. I just remember first seeing the problem with the orcish rangers and shaman. :)

[McGraham]

Course if you kill em the first couple times you hit em, you don't have to worry about em fleeing! :p

[parvo]

Whatever the case, the current state of affairs <<edit>> is less than optimal ;)

[The_Phenx]

Aye and no word yet on if they are planning or have already addressed the issue.