Killstealer: level 14 pure rogue

[Fennario]

SableShadow requested some pure rogue builds, so I thought I'd throw mine out there. I built this character not long after the Drow invaded Stormreach, after my sorcerer pulled a +1 Int tome out of the Giant Caves... back when +1 tomes were a bit harder to come by.:) I've had this rogue for a long time, so he has become pretty prosperous in regards to tomes and gear.

True Neutral Drow Rogue

STATS

Level 1:

STR 10
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 10
CHA 12

Level 14:

STR 18 (10 + 6 item + 2 tome)
DEX 32 (17 + 3 levels + 4 enhancements + 6 item + 2 tome)
CON 18 (12 + 6 item)
INT 26 (17 + 6 item + 3 tome) *also ate a +1 tome at level 1 for extra skill points
WIS 16 (10 + 6 item)
CHA 20 (12 + 6 item + 2 tome)

*stats not all maxed at once... items swapped in as needed

FEATS

TWF
Weapon Finesse
Skill Focus: UMD
ITWF
Improved Crit: Pierce

SKILLS

Max ranks in:

Diplomacy
Disable
Hide
Jump
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Search
Spot
Tumble
UMD

13 ranks in Balance

Spot:

17 ranks
13 item
4 GH
3 wis
2 luck
2 racial
__________
41

Search:

17 ranks
13 item
8 int
4 GH
3 skill boost
2 luck
2 racial
1 Find Traps scroll
__________
50

Disable:

17 ranks
13 item
8 int
7 tools
4 GH
3 skill boost
2 enhancement
2 luck
__________
56

Open Lock:

17 ranks
13 item
11 dex
7 tools
4 GH
3 skill boost
2 luck
__________
57

UMD:

17 ranks
5 item
5 cha
4 GH
3 feat
2 luck
__________
36 (39 with skill boost for a must not fail Heal scroll :eek:)

*two Planar Girds and plenty of scrolls allow GH to be nearly always up and running even without a friendly Arcane

SAVES

Base level 14 rogue:

F 4
R 9
W 4

With stat bonuses:

F 8 (4 + 4 con bunus)
R 20 (9 + 11 dex bonus)
W 7 (4 + 3 wis bonus)

Self buffed:

F 19 (8 + 5 resistance item + 4 GH + 2 luck)
R 31 (20 + 5 resistance item + 4 GH + 2 luck)
W 18 (7 + 5 resistance item + 4 GH + 2 luck)

* 20 vs enchantments (18 + 2 elven enchantment save bonus)

HIT POINTS

84 rogue level 14
20 Heroic Durability
56 con
30 Greater False Life
10 Draconic Vitality
__________
200

AC (in a dress without a shield)

Standing:

10 base
11 dex
6 bracers
5 protection item
3 Chattering Ring
__________
35

Self buffed:

35
4 shield spell clicky/wand
3 barkskin pot
1 haste pot
__________
43
__________
49 in bursts with +6 from Improved Uncanny Dodge

*add in a friendly ranger barkskin and pally auras and this goes up of course

ATTACK

10 BaB
11 dex
5 weapon
4 GH
2 enhancement
-2 TWF
__________
+30 to-hit on the first swing (+32 when flanking... as a rogue should always try to do)

ENHANCEMENTS

Sneak Attack Training IV
Subtle Backstabber IV
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Haste Boost III
Skill Boost II
Disable II
Rogue Dex II
Elven Dex II

* I've played around with so many different enhancement sets, but this is the one I am rolling with now. Way of the Mechanic is nice but not needed. Tried Way of the Assassin, but was not impressed with the poisons. The beauty of enhancements is they can be changed as the game changes.

This rogue can handle pretty much every trap in the game except the infamous Cabal elite. But this is not your typical Trap Monkey. As you can see, only 6 action points were spent on trapsmithing. The rest were spent on what I feel the rogue class is all about; dealing out death... quickly.

STRENGTHS

Can deal out massive damage from the shadows. With full Sneak Attack Training, 25% haste boosts, and two weapons, he has had a few different barbarians scratching their heads. He has heard many a cry of "killstealer", much to his delight.:D Has solid trapsmithing and UMD skills. Ability to hotswap different robe effects is nice to have as well.

WEAKNESSES

Must be always aware of the damage you are dealing. With only 200 hitpoints and most damage coming from sneak attacks, aggro is bad. Even with the full Subtle Backstabber enhancements, you can still be overwhelmed if not playing smart. Aggro management is a constant dance with a build like this. Diplomacy does help, but make sure to let the party know if you are diploing in case some of the mobs take a fancy to the casters, clerics, or anyone who does not want the aggro. Will and Fort saves are a problem at lower levels or without high end gear. And of course, undead and constructs are not a favorite opponent.:mad: Soloing with this build is a challenge for the simple fact that you always have all the aggro... so you can only get one sneak attack in there. Stealth is helpful for soloing some quests though.


This build has been an absolute delight to play. I obviously have logged alot of time with this rogue, but even without the high end gear and tomes, I think he would still perform quite well. In fact, he did perform quite nicely before he collected all that loot.:) If I were to do it all again, I probably would alter his skills a bit. I might have stolen some points from Tumble and Listen, and put them into Haggle. All of those scrolls can get expensive. :( I've also thought that I might have lowered his Int a bit to raise some other stats. But having solid trapsmithing skills without investing many action points and no feats is very nice... so probably not.

When its all said and done this probably has been my favorite character to play, with my sorcerer a close second. Its been quite a challenge learning how to play him well.

[BatWingAlegria]

Wow,now that s a nice build,I am new to the DDO Game,but not to the DD game,and I think Rogues are some of the coolest classes,with Monk,Druid and Sorcerer,and I just got my 3rd level Rogue,and even if it s a good trapsmither,I would like it to be used for PvP too.
Thank you.:D

[bigj1608]

excellent looking build. my first character was a halfling rogue and i enjoyed playing him very much :) you've inspired me to remake my old rogue as a drow and get into the shadows once again

cheers!

[drachine]

so you have +6 items that you can wear all at the same time?

[sigtrent]

so you have +6 items that you can wear all at the same time?

Most rogues will only wear wisdom/int when doing traps, although some might wear wisdom at all times.

Mine simply doesn't bother with a wisdom item, and equips charisma/int only when using a related skill. I still list the items for the build because they do effect my typeical stat bonuses when using the skills where the calculation comes into play.

[Fennario]

so you have +6 items that you can wear all at the same time?

No I don't... but close. :) I swap between a +6 wisdom and +6 charisma helm. As I stated before, I've been playing this character since shortly after Drow were introduced. So what's that... a year and a half or so? I've accumulated a good deal of loot in that time. Here is my set up in case you're curious:

Head: +6 wis (+6 cha swapped in for UMD, Diplo, Haggle, etc.)
Goggles: +6 int
Necklace: +6 con
Bracers: +6 armor
Gloves: Seven Fingered (+5 UMD, +11 DD, +11 OL... also have +13 DD and +13 OL to swap in, but the +11 is usually enough)
Ring: +6 dex
Ring: Chattering (+3 Dodge, +13 Spot, -10 Move Silently... +13 search swapped in for searching and when I need to sneak)
Boots: Boots of the Innocent (+5 resistance and 15% stride... swap in 25% stride when the 15% isn't cutting it)
Cloak: +5 protection
Belt: Brute Strength (+6 str and greater false life)
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune (+2 Luck, Mod Fort... get Heavy Fort from robe)

I do have a +6 cha ring that my sorc uses, so I could wear +6 items all at the same time if I wanted to... but that would just be silly wouldn't it? :p

[MrWizard]

you have +11 dex for your standing ac, but I think dex caps at 6 for AC bonus...or 5..something like that.

[KoolHand]

He getg his full modifier when wearing robes.

[Vormaerin]

Yup. Robes (or any normal clothes) are unlimited dex mod. Padded caps at +8. Leather and mithral chain shirt at +6. Studded Leather and Mithral Breastplate at +5. High level rogues (as well as some rangers and bards) give up on armor entirely after a while. Either get armored robes or bracers of armor. Even +5 padded is only 6 points of AC, so if your dex is 28 or better you can usually do better with robes.

[rekoil]

Hello, total rogue noob here with a question. How many attacks are you able to execute and still get the sneak attack bonus? The reason for the question is I am wondering how useful the TWF is for a backstabbing rogue.
Thanks.

[Hvymetal]

Hello, total rogue noob here with a question. How many attacks are you able to execute and still get the sneak attack bonus? The reason for the question is I am wondering how useful the TWF is for a backstabbing rogue.
Thanks.
Well that is actually a fairly complicated question. It all is determined by how long it takes you to pull aggro away from whomever has it currently.

[Fennario]

Hello, total rogue noob here with a question. How many attacks are you able to execute and still get the sneak attack bonus? The reason for the question is I am wondering how useful the TWF is for a backstabbing rogue.
Thanks.

As Hvymetal stated, all of your attacks are sneak attacks as long as you don't have aggro. As soon as you have the mob's attention, you lose your sneak attack bonus.

That's why Subtle Backstabber is my favorite enhancement. It really helps alot. Sometimes I forget to turn it on when I log in, and man can you tell the difference.

Also I have one of these in my offhand:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Treason.jpg

Treason is a great little rogue weapon, and something worth farming once you're high enough level to run the Reaver raid.

And to answer your other question. TWF is awesome on a backstabbing rogue. I wouldn't roll any other way. :)

[MysticRhythms]

My current level 5 Rogue is almost this same build with a few minor exceptions:

1) Human (for the feat, skill point and cheaper build points into Con)
2) Different stats:
3) Only two feats different for the plan

Starting stats:

Str 14 (5 build points + 1 tome)
Dex 16 (10 build points)
Con 14 (5 build points +1 tome)
Int 16 (8 build points + 1 tome)
Wis 10 (1 build point +1 tome)
Cha 12 (3 build points + 1 tome)

For the feats, I have one extra and instead of Skill Focus(UMD) I wet with Combat Expertise with the plan for Inproved Feint at level 6. As a result, I have Bluff instead of Balance and I did add Haggle.

I didn't want to be the supreme UMD user - just enough to use stuff in fights against undead. If the Improved Feint doesn't work out for me, I may dump it and go with the UMD again and free up another feat slot.

I can vouch for the raw damage, though. I don't have the Drow enhancements but I have a higher strength which adds to the damage and I actively use the Rogue damage boost and Human Versatility damage boost as well.

I haven't had problems with traps unless I didn't have the appropriate gear for my level on or the quest level was higher than my level.

Super fun build to play. I can't wait to hit the mid levels.

You really end up cherishing every odd level gained with the build because of the boost to Sneak Attack.

Can I ask which Rogue special abilities you would plan on taking if you had the choice, like what we're getting in Mod 6?

Also - what do you think you'll be taking as a feat and special ability when Mod 6 is released? Are you still going to stay pure?

[rekoil]

Thanks for the replies.

[Fennario]

Can I ask which Rogue special abilities you would plan on taking if you had the choice, like what we're getting in Mod 6?

Also - what do you think you'll be taking as a feat and special ability when Mod 6 is released? Are you still going to stay pure?

Well if I understand correctly we will now be able to choose between 5 special abilities. One each at levels 10, 13, and 16.

Improved Evasion
Crippling Strike
Skill Mastery
Defensive Roll
Slippery Mind

We already had Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike granted to us automatically, but we will be able to change those for something else now if we wish.

I will probably keep Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike, and choose Slippery Mind at level 16. Improved Evasion is a must have, and I have become fond of Crippling Strike, even though some rogues I've talked with don't care for it much.

I was leaning towards Defensive Roll for a long time, but now that I have thought about it I'm not so sure. It only is useful if you are below 20% health. At 200 hitpoints, that would mean it would only help while I'm at less than 40 hitpoints... that's not a place I try to hang out for very long. :eek: Where's the Heal scroll?

Slippery Mind lets you make another roll on a failed Will save, which seems more useful to me.

Skill Mastery grants +1 to all of your skills. My skills are ok for now, so I'll go ahead and skip this one. If it were +3, I would consider it.

As far as my new feat, it will be Greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 15. That's pretty much a no-brainer.

The future of my rogue will be to stay pure all the way up to level 19. At level 20, I probably will take a fighter level so that I can take Superior Two Weapon Fighting. That's a long way down the road, but that's the plan as of now. :)

[Lo_Pan]

I don't even need to finish the build to say that this build will not end up as a kill stealer....it's not even close.... It lacks the focus on combat to be effective. Go back to the drawing board and look at getting ur strength to 13!!!! Look at power attack and possibly cleave. Oh, and you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON A ROGUE HAS: Spring attack!

[MysticRhythms]

I don't even need to finish the build to say that this build will not end up as a kill stealer....it's not even close.... It lacks the focus on combat to be effective. Go back to the drawing board and look at getting ur strength to 13!!!! Look at power attack and possibly cleave. Oh, and you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON A ROGUE HAS: Spring attack!

Do you have any idea how many feats that "idea" would eat up?

The OP has it right. This type of Rogue will deal massive amounts of damage.

[Fennario]

I don't even need to finish the build to say that this build will not end up as a kill stealer....it's not even close.... It lacks the focus on combat to be effective. Go back to the drawing board and look at getting ur strength to 13!!!! Look at power attack and possibly cleave. Oh, and you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON A ROGUE HAS: Spring attack!

You're joking right??? Lacks focus on combat? That's what this rogue is all about. Solid trapsmithing and UMD is just the gravy on the potatoes. Have you looked at his feats and enhancements?

A pure rogue with full sneak attack + an extra 8 sneak attack damage from enhancements + an extra 2 damage from rapiers and shortswords + an attack bonus of above 30 + ITWF = massive DPS.

I regularly peel the aggro right off of raging 40+ strength barbs.

Power Attack? Spring Attack? Cleave? You're kidding right? That would burn up all 5 of my feats:

Power Attack
Cleave
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

No ITWF? No Improved Crit??? No Weapon Finesse? So you're gonna rely on your 13 base strength to hit mobs? With PA rolling you're not gonna be able to hit a kobold.

How is Spring Attack the most important weapon a rogue has? There's a bug right now that doesn't even give you an attack roll half the time while chasing a mob... Spring Attack or not. And even when I get a roll, my attack is high enough to hit regularly.

Not effective??? This rogue has been tested and proven in combat on the highest level elite content in the game. I think you're the one that needs the drawing board my friend.

[Lo_Pan]

okay, okay.

1st lvl: TWF, dodge

3rd: Finesse

6th: Mobility

9th: Spring attack

12th: Power attack

15th: Imp crit Pierce

18th: Imp twf OR: toughness!! OR: CLEAVE!!


If no one else here considers feats and ability points to 20, then you SHOULD BE ashamed of yourselves. Planning a character from 1st to 20th is ALMOST ESSENTIAL in pen and paper... Why should that not carry over here?

Also: Who said I would post the entire build...if you looked at my original post you would see that it's vague in detail... Quite deliberate... Otherwise how would I get you to see that it's meant to make you think, made to make you consider the options in the plan.... The original build is not really that bad, it's just not that good either... In fact horrible is not far from the truth. With a little tweaking, and the correct use of points, then it could be SUPER! Forget trying to compete with a drow trap monkey, you can't. Stop encouraging it and run with the alternative: A pure DPS rogue to make any DPS barb cry!

[Hvymetal]

I'd have to disagree, it's all a mater of taste really. For me, on a Rogue cleave and power attack are not as usefull. Cleave depends on you having a group of critters in front of you, also increases the chance of you gaining aggro for a short term burst of DPS for the trade off of having a harder time controlling your aggro while this feat is being used.

Power attack, I feel that the STR normally obtainable, unless you sink a lot of build points, tomes and the best gear along w/ your level ups into STR makes the benifit of power attack diminish compared to a higher strength class. Not being a full BAB class the penalty to hit can end up hurting a Rogue more than a fighter for not nearly the same benifit.

I do plan for 20, my latest Rogue (Well Rogue/Ranger/Fighter, but 16 levels of Rogue) should end up with Superior TWF, Oversized TWF, Imp Crit Pierce & Toughness.

In my opinion Cleave is too situational to be worth the feat from a class that does not get a lot of feats and power attack damage is not going to be worth the cost compaerd to what you are going to be putting out in sneak attack damage anyways.

[MysticRhythms]

Cleave and Power Attack are most efficient on high Strength Two HANDED fighters.

Spring Attack might be useful but it costs too much for a class that doesn't get many feats.

The two-weapon version has more room to grow and take advantage of new feats that come out before we even see level 20.

[Ironwind]

A couple of questions for the OP.

1. why true neutral?
2. why not weapon focus: pierce in place of skill focus: UMD?

[Hvymetal]

A couple of questions for the OP.

1. why true neutral?
2. why not weapon focus: pierce in place of skill focus: UMD?
Not the OP but may be able to help you a bit.

True Neutral has several benifits, especially to a UMD user, can use Taint Of Evil items w/out penalty, don't take extra dmg from unholy weapons(like those stupid arrows undead like to ues), can use Stability when it is still benificial. For giving up a few alignment specified items, most of which have abilities that can be made up for either by other items or scroll.

Skill Focus: UMD would be my choice as well. IMO a +1 to hit is a very steep price to pay for a Feat in a class that already has a shortage of feats. The UMD allows you to use things such as Raise Dead scrolls earlier and easier with less failure rate, which equals more money saved:)

[mortrae]

I don't even need to finish the build to say that this build will not end up as a kill stealer....it's not even close.... It lacks the focus on combat to be effective. Go back to the drawing board and look at getting ur strength to 13!!!! Look at power attack and possibly cleave. Oh, and you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON A ROGUE HAS: Spring attack!

I'd have to guess you've never played a pure Rogue. :)

I have a build very similar to the OP, and I *average* about 55 points of damage PER SWORD when I'm getting sneak attacks. That's 55 times 6 swings, or 330 *average* in a full TWF attack round. Not including crits of any kind.

My Khopesh Fighter... with Power Attack... averages about 35 per swing... non crit. And only 4 swings per round. If I pull out a 2 hander, I average about 55 per swing. Non crit. And again, only 4 swings per round.

On my Rogue, I'll go up to Mentau in the Abbott Preraid with a Fighter swinging a Sword of Shadows. I let him swing for a few seconds to get agro. Then I start swinging. Before Mentau is done, I've taken agro from the Fighter.

Now that by itself would seem to show how much damage a pure Rogue does, but then you have to remember that with enhancements and Treason, my agro is reduced by 50%.

That means that Mentau thought I was only doing half the damage to him than I really was... and I still pulled agro well before the fight was over.

As to Power Attack for a Rogue, not advisable. The key for the Rogue is to hit so the Sneak Attacks will go off. You don't want anything making it harder for you to hit. Even if you're swinging a two hander, the loss in Sneak Attack dice far outweighs any bonus Power attack will give you.

[Hvymetal]

I'd have to guess you've never played a pure Rogue. :)

I have a build very similar to the OP, and I *average* about 55 points of damage PER SWORD when I'm getting sneak attacks. That's 55 times 6 swings, or 330 *average* in a full TWF attack round. Not including crits of any kind.

My Khopesh Fighter... with Power Attack... averages about 35 per swing... non crit. And only 4 swings per round. If I pull out a 2 hander, I average about 55 per swing. Non crit. And again, only 4 swings per round.

On my Rogue, I'll go up to Mentau in the Abbott Preraid with a Fighter swinging a Sword of Shadows. I let him swing for a few seconds to get agro. Then I start swinging. Before Mentau is done, I've taken agro from the Fighter.

Now that by itself would seem to show how much damage a pure Rogue does, but then you have to remember that with enhancements and Treason, my agro is reduced by 50%.

That means that Mentau thought I was only doing half the damage to him than I really was... and I still pulled agro well before the fight was over.

As to Power Attack for a Rogue, not advisable. The key for the Rogue is to hit so the Sneak Attacks will go off. You don't want anything making it harder for you to hit. Even if you're swinging a two hander, the loss in Sneak Attack dice far outweighs any bonus Power attack will give you.

100% agree, also why I don't think STR based Rogues are such a huge improvement over Finesse based Rogues, normally their to hit is slightly lower as it is easier to get a higher DEX on a Rogue than STR and honestly compared to sneak attack an extra +1-+5 dmg or so is really negligible....

[Fennario]

okay, okay.

1st lvl: TWF, dodge

3rd: Finesse

6th: Mobility

9th: Spring attack

12th: Power attack

15th: Imp crit Pierce

18th: Imp twf OR: toughness!! OR: CLEAVE!!


If no one else here considers feats and ability points to 20, then you SHOULD BE ashamed of yourselves. Planning a character from 1st to 20th is ALMOST ESSENTIAL in pen and paper... Why should that not carry over here?

Also: Who said I would post the entire build...if you looked at my original post you would see that it's vague in detail... Quite deliberate... Otherwise how would I get you to see that it's meant to make you think, made to make you consider the options in the plan.... The original build is not really that bad, it's just not that good either... In fact horrible is not far from the truth. With a little tweaking, and the correct use of points, then it could be SUPER! Forget trying to compete with a drow trap monkey, you can't. Stop encouraging it and run with the alternative: A pure DPS rogue to make any DPS barb cry!

Hey man, I have a suggestion. Why don't you start your own thread with your uber build, instead of trashing mine? I mean the things that you suggest are not even close to what this build is. You aren't suggesting tweaks, but a complete re-roll. Hell, I can see by the fact you get 2 feats at level 1, that your build is either multi-classed or not even the same race.

I posted this build in response to SableShadow's request for proven, pure rogues played to the current level cap. And that is exactly what this build is. I have been playing this rogue since the day Drow were introduced... how ever long that is. I know, and the players that I group with know, what this build is capable of. Maybe take your suggestions to someone who is still trying to figure out what kind of rogue they want to play. That's not me... I already know.

Don't get me wrong. I welcome tips and suggestions. But with you saying things like this being a borderline horrible build, I can see that flaming others is more interesting to you than adding anything constructive.

[Fennario]

I'd have to guess you've never played a pure Rogue. :)


QFT

[ORCRiST]

No offence, but remove the 3 +2 tomes, and the one +3 tome, and you have an average build.

A solid build to be sure, but average.

ORC

[Fennario]

A couple of questions for the OP.

1. why true neutral?
2. why not weapon focus: pierce in place of skill focus: UMD?


Hvymetal summed it all up pretty well.

I chose true neutral at the time mostly for the Stability. Way back then the level cap was still at 10, and Stability was useful for a large portion of the characters life. As the game has progressed, I am glad I made that choice for the other reasons that Hvymetal stated.

The 3 points that SF:UMD gives are much more useful than the 1 point that WF:Pierce gives. My attack roll is pretty good without it. With skill boost I can use level 6 scrolls without failure. Without SF:UMD, I couldn't do that.

[Fennario]

No offence, but remove the 3 +2 tomes, and the one +3 tome, and you have an average build.

A solid build to be sure, but average.

ORC



Yes, I have been lucky with the loot on the character as I stated in the original post. But to be fair, only take away 2 of the +2 tomes as anyone can get a +2 favor tome. I chose dex as my favor tome. So take away the int tome, the cha tome, and the str tome. Where does that leave you?

-1 on int based skills
-1 on cha based skills
-1 on str based skills and -1 on damage

How does that suddenly make him just average? I'm pretty sure that he will still be more than a capable and effective rogue. In fact, he was before I pulled all that loot. :)

[ORCRiST]

Yes, I have been lucky with the loot on the character as I stated in the original post. But to be fair, only take away 2 of the +2 tomes as anyone can get a +2 favor tome. I chose dex as my favor tome. So take away the int tome, the cha tome, and the str tome. Where does that leave you?

-1 on int based skills
-1 on cha based skills
-1 on str based skills and -1 on damage

How does that suddenly make him just average? I'm pretty sure that he will still be more than a capable and effective rogue. In fact, he was before I pulled all that loot. :)

And the +3 INT tome? "Average" as in what any rogue should be. If you remove the tomes, like you suggest, that means anyone can make that build, and therefore, nothing special - what anyone that wants to make a rogue should aim for. <shrugs> I'm not trying to **** in your Wheaties, I'm just sayin'. Lol.

ORC

[Fennario]

And the +3 INT tome? "Average" as in what any rogue should be. If you remove the tomes, like you suggest, that means anyone can make that build, and therefore, nothing special - what anyone that wants to make a rogue should aim for. <shrugs> I'm not trying to **** in your Wheaties, I'm just sayin'. Lol.

ORC


I did take away the +3 int tome. As stated in the original post, I ate a +1 int tome at level 1, so taking away the +3 tome drops him down to a 24 int.

I misunderstood what you were saying I guess... sorry about that. I never claimed that this build was the end all be all of pure rogue builds. And the fact that anyone can make this build and have a solid rogue is a good thing in my opinion. :)

[Cold_Stele]

I don't even need to finish the build to say that this build will not end up as a kill stealer....it's not even close.... It lacks the focus on combat to be effective. Go back to the drawing board and look at getting ur strength to 13!!!! Look at power attack and possibly cleave. Oh, and you forgot the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON A ROGUE HAS: Spring attack!

Spring Attack???

Why would you need Spring Attack when your best tactic is to stand still inside the Sorc's firewall (or right next to your new best buddy Intimi-Tank) and put out ridiculous DPS with your Sneak Attack bonus?

I see a lot of builds on the Rogue forum splashing Ftr this and Rgr that for extra combat feats, but reducing their Sneak Attack damage. If that works for them that's cool and all. Seems to me though that with my base Str of 8 and full Sneak Attack line my DPS is pretty sweet, and I've been playing DPS melees for a long time.

It's all about getting the max number of d6's in Sneak Attack and learning the tactics to ensure you keep getting them...

[SableShadow]

bump for upcoming maintenance