TS Runs - Skill Gap - I miss Hellfire

[Sambvca]

/rant on

I have had the 3 worst TS runs over the past 2 days. 2+hrs each. (This excludes Scully's run on 12/20) Backtracking to pickup people can't make the lava run, who drown, who can't stay with the group and get lost. People who mess with the puzzle, let the rust monster out, kill fire 4 times when he's facinated.

Is there that big of a gap in skill between capped players and low-mid levels? If I pug one of my 14's, everyone knows what they're doing/ suposed to be doing, and things run smoothly. I've pug'd Horseman up to 9, and there seems to be a lack player talentin the mid-lower level player base. This isn't a blaket statement - roughly 40% of the lower population knows what's up. Another 40% of you I'd give a B- to C. I can live with the middle of the pack and try to help you. It's in the other 20 % that get the F grade. Wow, how have you made it to level 7? You're the ones who do the annoying stuff (see above). Grrrr.

/rant off

On a side note, is anyone that used to be in Hellfire still on. We used to 3 man TS in 15 minutes. Good times.

[Impaqt]

Surprise! The Recent promotion has actually gotten us quite a few brand new players......

Tempest spine is a very difficult quest at first. No map for the vast majority of it, The first time you have to kill 2 things at once to progress, Deep Lava, etc etc etc.

Pugging tempest spine at low levels means you need a Solid leader. One that will take the time to educate folks, make sure people dont get lost, and have the patience to follow through when things dont go smooth.

[Ringos]

I think that most of us used to be in the 'lower skill' catagory at one point. Once we gain knowledge and skill we tend to forget what it's like to be without. Taking time to help people out ensures that people stick around and, who knows, the people you take time for may be the same people you are having a blast running with a few months down the road.

All that said, I've capped a toon and I STILL don't know my way around many quests. I've run TS about 5 times total with all my guys, so if I was pressed, it would take me abut 17 hours to get through it. I know people with a few capped toons that don't even know as much about the game as I do. How did they get capped? I imagine that they are fun to run with, hold their own and don't do all the stupid things that pss people off. The newer folks that adapt and learn a bit will stay around. Most that don't will probably soon find it hard to find groups and will fade away.

As a side notes:
I think it's great that DoctorWhoFan holds hands during TS runs. Newer folks appreciate it and the people that have been around a while know how she rolls, so there should be no complaints if they group with her.

As far as the grading stuff, I basically have 3 catagories: Friends List, Folks I'll Run With and DNG. After a year, I think the DNG list probably has about 6 people on it....FAR eclipsed by the Friends List!

[Dorthin_Othortin]

while i dont agree that TS is a "hard" quest, i would say that for first timers it can be confusing at best

i hate to say this, and really, no offense intended but, a great/smooth raid starts with the raid leader(s)

if you assume anything on any pug raid anyone can quickly come to the conclusion that the raid party is a bunch of idiots!

for instance with TS, if you assume ppl who have never done the quest know how to get from any point A to any point B in the quest you are seriously setting yourself up for a major headache

if you assume that any lvl 9 cleric has 4-5 rez scrolls on a mid/low lvl run you are setting yourself up for a major headache. This applies to any scroll, potion, wand or spell from any class.

bottom line on pug grps is this: expect everyone on the raid to know absolutely NOTHING about the quest layout, encounters, spells to use, tried and true strats or even how to play the character they have built

i would fully expect any lvl 7-10 TS run raid leader to spend a min. of 10-13mins briefly explaining the quest before anyone takes a step and then i would fully expect a continuous speech throughout the quest about every little aspect

you ever heard the comment "give a boy a rope and he wants to be a cowboy"?

give a noob player room to question on a pug raid and they will do everything they possible can to "ruin" your raid. they will pull levers that they dont know what the results are, they will loot chests with rooms full of mobs while dying, they will run into lava pits to the point that a rez is nearly impossible, they will fall into "trap" areas from which there is no return, they will run out of sp within the first 2 battles, they will try their best to bounce agro all over the map, they will ask you and others for the best loot pulls, they will blame everyone except themselves for their own stupid actions, they will have the weirdest builds known to the game and boost about how they are superior, they will use great axes to kill oozes, they will...................................

YOU GET THE POINT!

everything, and i mean E V E R Y T H I N G must be spelled out, almost in capital letters and said through voice on a pug raid such as TS when dealing with players that have never run the quest. same with reaver, titan, dragon and everyday grinding quests. If you dont, you will be right back here after your next pug explaining to us how you had the worst experience ever

just some thoughts from one weekly pug raid leader to another pug raid leader :)

Join Jmar's Famous "your loot is your loot" booty bam bust reaver raids sometimes and listen to my pug "speech"!!!

[Winded]

i hate to say this, and really, no offense intended but, a great/smooth raid starts with the raid leader(s)


/signed

Stop assuming everyone is as uber and experienced as you and provide some leadership, always.

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

[Dorthin_Othortin]

and, speaking of missing the "good ol days" and TS

gosh i sure do miss the 4 min "wounding" TS runs....................

i miss running back to the quest and zoning in just in time to get the xp for quest completion cause 2-3 ppl were just that fast!

/dreams back.......went form lvl 7 to almost 9 in one night in TS on my cleric :)

ah, the golden days!

[Sambvca]

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

Fair enough. I'm more worried about how Lvl 7's don't have an UA item, can't stay with the party, tell you they're lost 5 minutes after the fact, ect. These are things you should learn by lvl 3.

Side note on good times - Therenal South 3, 2 min loot runs.

[Brai]

TS is a hard quest. that is why it was run for so many timed speed runs back in the day. At one point my WIZ Bruw was ransacked on xp and loot from all the chests. I made it a mission to run it everyday back when that was one of the only places to get tomes. I have run it a few times lately as well and noticed that the leaders of the group were usually people who ran it once or twice on their capped toons and not much after. I also noticed a lot of people doing the old ways of fire and ice and people not knowing how to go around the intel rune if you get thrown off by Sorjac. All around there is a large gap between the veteran players and newer ones. If people want to have someone show them the ropes I will gladly offer my services, free of charge even. Send me a PM, I have 2 accounts with all levels of chars. so like I said send me a PM, and I'll give you a list of toons to look for. I've been mostly soloing because I never know what I'm getting into with a PUG, but if I know it is a learning experience for group members I will plan accordingly!

[Seylene]

I agree that it doesn't take much to just survey your group to see who knows what they're doing and who does not. You can always get experienced ppl to help keep the new ppl together (like sheep herders LOL :p). That will save you a world of pain and agony and having to go back to find ppl. BUT in addition to this, NEW PPL should be up front about saying they do not know the quest well and would need a little extra guidance to help keep up. I say it's important for both sides to speak up if you're pugging with a large group. :D

[aldan]

There has been a large influx of players coming in that seem to be coming from games that are solo based. Ran TS last night and our sorc decided he would pull ice before we even got setup, he went halfway in and pulled the giants, no ice, fire came up and would you know we had leave fire up, while we pulled ice again. The lack of player coordination does seem to be amplified lately. I have had groups with unexperienced players and never had a problem, its when the unexp players dont listen to the lead and lonewolf and get the group into trouble.

Experience really shouldnt matter. if you have a solid leader and everyone does their roll in the battle, then everything should go ok for the most part.

I love this game and I do help the lesser experienced ones if they are open to it.

[aldan]

/signed

Stop assuming everyone is as uber and experienced as you and provide some leadership, always.

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

Not always true, a leader is only as good as his group. Take football for example, you can have a Tom Brady, but without the teammates to support him, its a losing proposition. I do agree that a necessary ingredient is a qualified leader but that will not lead to sucess if the team will not support his efforts.

[Zenako]

Despite all the nay sayers, since EXP is so easy to get now, it is very easy to get a character up a lot of levels with only minimal play experience, and even, facing mainly the same type of foes and challenges every time. Tempest Spine is one of the first places people might get to where lots of new mobs appear. Maruts, Beholders, Blackguards, etc. Powerful MOb Spellcasters, etc. Play style must adapt. If you are used to just killing dumb giants in SC all the time, this can be a shock.

Back when I was first running TS, used to get lost on occasion and fall behind. Some of that was actually me taking time to look around and see the dungeon we were in, while the veterans were zerging ahead to the next chest/fight. (Since I was often on my Cleric back then, they did tend to wait some or come back and find me. ;)) After one run was finished, I just then spent the next hour back in the upper halls exploring and mapping. Figuring out that the water portion was not all that hard. Learning where all the rooms were. I made a map. I as the player gained a lot of experience in that hour. My character got none, BUT, was then able to quite freely move about the map, know the layout, anticipate the mobs, etc.

There were a number of runs where my Paladin, was being very Paladin like and helping any and everyone who needed help. I went back out and found the dying souls in the lava and brought them into the quest. I went out and found the lost soulstone (at that point) of the toon who turned the wrong way trying to help fighting ICE. It can get pretty nasty back there if you wake everything up...sigh. Mephits and Flensers Anonymous. We did finish the quest, but it was lot longer than a veteran group would have taken. HOWEVER, the only way to become a veteran is to do the quest, to learn it and to learn what you should not do as well. NOONE was brought into this game with perfect knowledge. Everyone had to learn sometime. Its probably time to "pay it back" as that movie put it. With a guild run and veteran players...no mercy. With a mixed group/pug and new people, the hat of kindness and teaching appears. On a quest I know well, I will ask the other players, if they seem new, how much help they want to get. For example: A) There will be a trap box on the second pillar on the left for the blade trap, please find and disarm to save healing, or B) This passage looks like a good place to put a trap or ambush, scouts be on the alert. (A) is handholding, but teaching them the quest, (B) is pointing out when it is a good time to use those scout skills and letting the scout figure things out. Option (C), yup there is a trap in this hall, but we can just ignore it and go the other way instead since the halls connect...unless we want conquest, ransack and being clever bonuses. With some players with limited time, I often suggest we go for everything. Helps to maximize experience from that quest. Exposes them to the entire quest, not just the beeline to the end (WW for example). And lets them use more of thier skills and feel useful.

Given the many higher level quests available, TSE runs are no where near as frequent as they used to be, BUT some of my mid levels are getting to the point where they are ready to crack those doors.

[dawnyel]

I am fairly new and been trying to learn the quests better. I am one of those folks with a quicky capped toon. I can get lost and fall with the best of them. I find myself repeating things I been told and another player tells me it is wrong. Oh well I too hope to be able to one day to know what is the right way to do something or right way to build my character. Alot times I am just trying to not get lost, fall off a ledge and trying to keep up to remeber where I have just been. For now I ask question about things and probably drive folks crazy. I like to talk sorry. I am sure I am probabaly on some folks do not play list. I have learn to ask before pulling and opening and doing things. It does take time. Sometimes I get a little crazy thinking, I remember this quest. I know where I am going and boom dead or lost or fallen< but it is part of the learning process. Oh do not do that again.

I have some mid and lower lvl toons that I am playing and folks just do not understand why I do not care about xp or do not level when I can. It is just me trying to learn not just run through the stuff as quick as I can.

There are some great teachers out there. I have met alot and generous folks always trying to help and support new folks. I want to say thank you all for you help and paitience. I have been in their groups, but one time through with them does not make me an experience ldr. I strive to be like them. I am not sure I will be able to. Heck I still can not lead folks comfortably through water works. I have tried and failed (fell of the ledge as a suiqshee when freeing arlos) thank goodness for a quite little fighter or babarian darwf that took up the lead. Thank you again.

I have also learned that one time through a quest with someone does not mean that is how the person is. They just may be having a bad day.

[STROBE]

Fair enough. I'm more worried about how Lvl 7's don't have an UA item, can't stay with the party, tell you they're lost 5 minutes after the fact, ect. These are things you should learn by lvl 3.

I hope you're just exagerating with the level 3 comment. If not, they you have seriously forgotten what its like for a new player at the beginning of this game. I have not. At level 3, people have not even figured out all the basic UI controls.

In regards to your original post, Welcome to the State of the Player Base! I feel you were quite generous in your grading. That's why i've moved on. I could take the new players, and even enjoyed grouping with them. Its the experienced players (like me, since March 6 2006) that I got enough of.

Its the experienced players I see causing their own frustration, over and over again. Top five ways to make yourself unhappy:

(Note that hereafter, the use of the words you and yourself are rhetorical, and do not refer specifically to Sambvca.)

5. Don't stop not even 1 second to catch everyone in your haste. Just cast it on the run, and leave some behind. Then get all huffy and put out when the party gets scattered and starts dieing piece-meal

4. Dont say anthing; don't type anything. Expect everyone to think just like you do. Or read your mind over the internet. Then get all angry and emo when the party partially wipes.

3. When someone asks for help, don't give it. Just keep going hell for leather, and then wonder why there's only about half the party at the end before the big battle, and they are not buffed right.

2. Please by all means, 3 or 4 tanks run off to complete the quest objectives in the shortest possible time, leaving the squishies behind, and then take a toke or two, while waiting for the cleric to catch up to your now 10 hit points left barbarians. Be sure to get all huffy while half of the squishies die and spend 20 minutes fighting thru the mobs you left behind.

1. Just keep thinking, I don't need nobody, every man for himself, I can two man this on elite with my mom's lvl two character in 11 seconds.

PS: Oh, I almost forgot - please assume that everyone has a 40+ jump like your chatracter, then be shocked, I say shocked, when a bunch of people miss the jump and can't find their way back. Or find themselves dieing. Gotta love that Giant Hold!

PPS: ATTENTION, ATTENTION!. PUGS are not filled with your elite, uber twinked, can do no wrong guildees, some of whom game for a living, apparently. And shock of shocks, puggles are not going to function like them.

[Impaqt]

I stand by my statement that TS is a difficult quest.....

Just because the "Uber" are used to it and have every nook and cranny memorized so wel they could run it with blindness doesnt make it "Easy"

Its WAY easy to get lost inthe first 5 minutes if you dont make an attempt to keep the party together.. The Haste thing is a great example... Many TS Experst throw it down and go zerg. WHile the newbie is stil taking in the view, or may stil be loading in even. You zip around that corner with a fork.... WIth NO Map... and have no idea which way peole went.

My first character didnt have FF and A Items until l9 or so if I remeber correctly. First tempest spine run I did I had to shrine and pick up the waterbreathing spell.(and NOT just for me)

If you wanna Zerg Tempest Spine, by al means, start a group and Announce that its a Zerg. No one will be shown anything. You can then leave the newbies in the dust(If they do join) and satifsy your uberness.

Too many people lose site of what your first characters experience was once they have a few capped toons and a constant flow of twink items being handed down.

[MysticRhythms]

The amount of skill lacking in newer players is directly proportional to the lack of patience of skilled players.

The best leader on Tempest Spine (or any other raid, for that matter) is the one who can train a first-timer to obtain all of the objectives of the quest after only a handful of runs.

A good leader doesn't just give orders. They should be able to create a protege who can run the quest similarly. A goodleader most certainly does not complete the quest himself.

If you can't, then you lack communication skills. You may be an incredible player, but a poor leader.

Leading a PUG group is one of the most difficult communication challenges in this game.

that said, one of the posters above hit the nail on the head. New players of this game are so hyped on leveling up as fast as possible that they never learn the strengths and weaknesses of their characters. They stay "lost" up through level 14 and are just happy to click on the contents of a chest regardless of who really did the workload in a quest to get them there. There is too much emphasis on running WW->STK->Tangleroot->Delera's->Stormcleave->Co6 just to hurry up and level. Along the way, you HOPE those players learn the UI ... and what DR means and that some monsters may have different kinds of it and that saving throws and energy resistances matter and a whole slew of other nuances.

The lack of a map in Tempest Spine coupled with the fact that you always seem to have 2-3 guys who know thequest really well and 5-9 who really don't is what creates this gap.

The problem lies more with those 2-3 folks though. Sure the newbies lack skill, but if those 2-3 had a modicum of patience and could just slow down the raid and teach the other folks, they'd all be experts after just a few runs together.

[MysticRhythms]

For those really experienced with the raid who have the patience, try this:

Put up an LFM for Tempest Spine that says "Slowest TS run ever. Newbies welcome and encouraged."

Watch how fast it fills up and then play tour guide. Take your time. Yes you know the quest inside and out and people will probably make mistakes and die.

At the end of the quest, check to see how many of those newbies thanked you or welcomed the patience. It will be more rewarding to you than a 15-minute run ever could be. I promise.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Fire and Ice can be nasty.
The end fight can be bad too....especially if a bunch of people get blown off.
The map is horible and inescusable.....there is the real problem with this quest. (unless you think zergers are the problem)

How can a new or almost new TS player possible figure out where everyone ran off to in this quest?
The only real problems I have seen here have mostly been due to people getting lost.
Second problem is that fire and ice can be very difficult at times.....not even because of bad players....just bad luck really.

I am amazed at the lack of overall skill of many newplayers though..... I thought that by lvl 10+ you would be compitant about basic tactics in this game.....but I've seen a lot of players lately that seem really really new.

I have noticed that in TS we often see one player without UA.... That really surprises me.
Underwater Action is the first of the must haves for my toons.
Feather Fall is second
Poison immunity is third. (I am constantly amazed at how effective enemy cloudkills are, even on lvl 14s......my toons dance in them)
Every toon capable of using them should have wands of remove disease, remove blindness and remove curse.....probably lesser restore as well......this includes Rogues and Sors with a decent UMD.

But going along with the TS complaints are that in any quest, you should never leave the rest of the party behind.
I understand it in TS with its useless map......but I am amazed at how many lvl 14 seem oblivious to where the other blue dots are on the map.....I swear I must be the only person who even has a map on my screen....cause the rest of you have no clue where anyone is.

Zerging is ok (I don't always like it, but it's not truly bad by itself, and for Barbs it can be arguesdto have a tactical reason)
But not knowing that someone (or everyone) is not with you is not ok. (TS excepted because of map)

[Shamguard]

Let's face it just about any quest can be a tough quest the first time.
TS has additional issues:
1) No internal map, so it is easy to get lost.
2) It's probalbly the first raid for most people and the size of the group can be intimidating for a noob.
3) At levels 8-11 a haste will miss someone, some new players don't realize this and will either run off without the haste or run off before they give everyone haste.
4) Fire and Ice is a tricky encounter and that needs to be coordinated by the party leader.
5) You need someone smart to handle the Intelligence rune (and I don't mean the character:D) or the party can get splitup.
6) When you run this quest at level, with new players, people will probably die. The party leader needs to be sure they are raised.
7) The quest has been modified, several times, so even experienced players may have some issues with this raid.

I guess what it comes down to is the party leader has to be just that a leader and not just the guy who found eleven other people to run the raid.
Of course it also means the other eleven need to be good followers. Even if the leader knows what he is doing if no one pays attention and just runs off and does their own thing the results will be the same as having a bad leader.

[Jaywade]

I miss the old days... speed runs of 23 min (not using cloud kill) 2 and 3 manning it w/ Dev, and bluebottom, I miss the blackguards of old (lvl 10 lvl cap era) when no one could hit them (they have since took their ac back quite a bit) ...the old way of doing fire and ice was a show (we'd pull fire to the hallway through ck and kill him then hast and run to kill ice.. was lots of fun) ....remmember when vorps worked on a crit and a vorp scimy was the best weapon in the game....it would own TS...always thought the end fight was a bit boring (gald they changed that) ...... the map not too bad once you learn the dungeon ... I wish we had 1 or 2 more raids like TS..

[Cireeric]

The amount of skill lacking in newer players is directly proportional to the lack of patience of skilled players.

The best leader on Tempest Spine (or any other raid, for that matter) is the one who can train a first-timer to obtain all of the objectives of the quest after only a handful of runs.

A good leader doesn't just give orders. They should be able to create a protege who can run the quest similarly. A goodleader most certainly does not complete the quest himself.

If you can't, then you lack communication skills. You may be an incredible player, but a poor leader.

Leading a PUG group is one of the most difficult communication challenges in this game.

that said, one of the posters above hit the nail on the head. New players of this game are so hyped on leveling up as fast as possible that they never learn the strengths and weaknesses of their characters. They stay "lost" up through level 14 and are just happy to click on the contents of a chest regardless of who really did the workload in a quest to get them there. There is too much emphasis on running WW->STK->Tangleroot->Delera's->Stormcleave->Co6 just to hurry up and level. Along the way, you HOPE those players learn the UI ... and what DR means and that some monsters may have different kinds of it and that saving throws and energy resistances matter and a whole slew of other nuances.

The lack of a map in Tempest Spine coupled with the fact that you always seem to have 2-3 guys who know thequest really well and 5-9 who really don't is what creates this gap.

The problem lies more with those 2-3 folks though. Sure the newbies lack skill, but if those 2-3 had a modicum of patience and could just slow down the raid and teach the other folks, they'd all be experts after just a few runs together.

This was extremely well said. This needs to be on billboard on walls outside of quest entrances.

With attitudes like this, the population would surely grow since you are showing people how to get the most out of a quest experience.

[Huebacca]

I miss Harlox he ran the best tempest spine elite runs back when the cap was 10, he is the reason why I know that quest like the back of my hand.

[Sambvca]

The amount of skill lacking in newer players is directly proportional to the lack of patience of skilled players.

The best leader on Tempest Spine (or any other raid, for that matter) is the one who can train a first-timer to obtain all of the objectives of the quest after only a handful of runs.

A good leader doesn't just give orders. They should be able to create a protege who can run the quest similarly. A goodleader most certainly does not complete the quest himself.

If you can't, then you lack communication skills. You may be an incredible player, but a poor leader.

This might be right on the mark. I've done my share of teaching/ leading/ helping. I've deleted and rerolled every toon I've
capped. I wasn't leading the party, just taking part in it. I'm mad that while I've been a 14 since you could be a 14,
someone else should have been teaching/ leading/ helping. I like the thread someone started on helping people learn, I'm
just sick of being the one. I'm probally more mad that there's not been that much to do for a while. If you cap all your
characters, have raid or better loot in every slot, what's there to do but reroll another toon and try to cap him in a month.
I guess I'm just been waiting for lvl cap increase for so long I became a grumpy old DDOer.

I hope Mod 6 comes out before February.

Here's the link to the next gen of freindly peops. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130500

[DagazUlf]

Too many people lose site of what your first characters experience was once they have a few capped toons and a constant flow of twink items being handed down.

'Tis true. I myself have fallen into this category, and greatly regret it. There really isn't much to do before level increase and I should be working to try to make those awesome initial experiences for some of the new folks, but instead I've been levelling up another fully-twinked character.

In the seasonal spirit, I'm going to grab an ale, get online, and try to be helpful. Thanks Impaqt for the nudge. ;)

[mardersteinel]

I do not think I was on any of the Tempest Spine runs initially described by the OP but I think some of my experiences mirror them. I would begin by saying I would imagine that if I was an experienced player who has done a run many times it would only be natural to be frustrated by some of these problems but in some respects they are unavoidable.

As a new player starting any run these are my thoughts:
1. Do not get lost (and die or waste everyone's time)
2. Do not do stupid things (and die or waste everyone's time or cause others to die)
3. Try to make a contribution
4. Try to absorb the strategy/layout/goals of the dungeon for next time

I have done this run 3 times. Run one I fell in the lava and died. They knew I was new - they tried to help me. I recalled and tried to get back and got lost and a giant stepped on me and I died. Then somebody came out and got me and I made it in. I experienced shame and frustration. The group went in on elite and the first mob killed everyone. I waited 2 weeks and tried again. On second run I made it in without incident. We made it through the adventure without difficulty. We did have a party separation at the intelligence rune (me not involved). The last battle was rough. Everyone died. The cleric recalled twice to come back and raise people and we eventually succeeded but as you might expect it took forever. The third run was a few days ago with a very experienced group. I said "everytime I do this people die and it is rough." I made it in without incident (still the most stressful part). Until the final battle the run was great. One of the experienced players got separated and I offhand made what I think is a true comment which is that - "I play this game in constant fear of getting lost." The final battle (which I still do not really understand) went fair - people (including me) died and were raised multiple times but nobody had to recall and we killed the giant. I will put a separate post under strategy on this topic.

My observations on being a new player were listed in a previous forum post here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=127751

My two cents on Tempest Spine coming at it from a novice point of view is that the run to get in is not intuitive. You have a fork and run up an incline. You run/hop over lava 2 times. I screwed that up the first time but was successful the next two (but experienced stress). Even if someone tries to help you they cannot do it for you and the player has to get it done.

The patience of the experienced players has been exceptional however I can only guess that at times it is very very frustrating.

[DoctorWhofan]

When I post on the LFM as "the goddess is holding court..." means that EVERYBODY is welcome to attend, new and old. And I scale the run to the lowest common denominator, ie the new people. Come on, it isn't that hard to help new people, is it? But have been on runs that I was NOT the leader go badly for new people. THe responsiblity of a leader with identified new people is to take the time to show them everything, help them when they get lost or confused, not to condemn them when they make mistakes, and to make sure they get every chest. Not many people havethe time and patience to do that. But that is how I run every TS run. Not all work like clockwork. We all (including the expiranced players) make mistakes, the question is are we willing to own up and learn from them?

[DoctorWhofan]

If ANYONE needs TS (or help with it) and sees one of my charaters on, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send me a tell. If I am not grouped, I will help! I will run! and if you want, I will lead it! I have level 10's who don't get xp for it anymore, that is how much I run it. And I have a rogue and another cleric at levels 8 and 9 ready to do it. LET ME KNOW!!! Sometimes my parties might not go as smooth as people (especially older players) want, but YOU WILL NOT BE LEFT BEHIND!!!

AND EVERYONE GETS THE CHESTS!!!!!!!

My alts: Trissa 14 cleric

Kleo: 14 sorcerer
Sousake: 14 Paladin
thetenth: 14 cleric
Scully: 12 cleic
Mulder: 11 Paladin
Roselyn: 8 cleric
Caboose: 7 paladin/fighter
Kaname: 8 rogue/ranger
Allura: 2 cleric
Oncoming: 6 wizard
Courwin: 5 bard

AND I WILL HELP WITH ANY QUEST, especially Stormcleave, Korrormar, STK, Delera's, Crucible (the hubby knows this one, not me!), PoP, Gianthold Tor, Gwylan's Stand, Tear of Daakan, Xorian Cypher, Water works, Proof is in the Poison, and Tangleroot. THese are some of my favourite quests and I LOVE to show new people around!

[Ringos]

When I post on the LFM as "the goddess is holding court..." means that EVERYBODY is welcome to attend, new and old. And I scale the run to the lowest common denominator, ie the new people. Come on, it isn't that hard to help new people, is it? But have been on runs that I was NOT the leader go badly for new people. THe responsiblity of a leader with identified new people is to take the time to show them everything, help them when they get lost or confused, not to condemn them when they make mistakes, and to make sure they get every chest. Not many people havethe time and patience to do that. But that is how I run every TS run. Not all work like clockwork. We all (including the expiranced players) make mistakes, the question is are we willing to own up and learn from them?
..

[Clay]

Heya Horesman! I was with you on one of those runs... lol Yeah it was bad! but was nice running with YOU!

In counter to some of the comments, a "newb" running TS for teh first time, should still not be opening chests before the fighting is done. That is just no cool, regardless of game experience. A new player should state as such at the beginning, and should make an effort to stay with the group, or speak up BEFORE they get lost.

Yes there is an onus on the leader to LEAD, but there is also an onus on the group members to follow. Giving clear instructions matters little if they are promplty not followed. I was in one of the quests that the OP was talking about. i know the quest well... but was often running back to get the lost players, getting the people in from the lava. It was not as much a case of 2-3 people zerging and leaving others behind, in fact all were remarkably patient.


Have a great Christmas!

[DoctorWhofan]

/rant on

I have had the 3 worst TS runs over the past 2 days. 2+hrs each. (This excludes Scully's run on 12/20) Backtracking to pickup people can't make the lava run, who drown, who can't stay with the group and get lost. People who mess with the puzzle, let the rust monster out, kill fire 4 times when he's facinated.

Is there that big of a gap in skill between capped players and low-mid levels? If I pug one of my 14's, everyone knows what they're doing/ suposed to be doing, and things run smoothly. I've pug'd Horseman up to 9, and there seems to be a lack player talentin the mid-lower level player base. This isn't a blaket statement - roughly 40% of the lower population knows what's up. Another 40% of you I'd give a B- to C. I can live with the middle of the pack and try to help you. It's in the other 20 % that get the F grade. Wow, how have you made it to level 7? You're the ones who do the annoying stuff (see above). Grrrr.

/rant off

On a side note, is anyone that used to be in Hellfire still on. We used to 3 man TS in 15 minutes. Good times.


Trissa=Scully

well, at lest i seem to know what I was doing. Thanks for not placing me in the bad catgory. Rep to maintain and all. Seriously, I have a level 8 and level 9, and cannot find good parties at all. I'm very confused by the gap there between 8-11.

[Shamguard]

Seriously, I have a level 8 and level 9, and cannot find good parties at all. I'm very confused by the gap there between 8-11.

Your to big for the noobs and to small for the capped. This gap is only going to get wider as the level cap is raised.
It's the whole power level thing, as the level cap goes up 4 levels is not enough.

My suggestions are:
Ping on your friends and guild members.
Try to stick to the quests that have the better XP.
Be ready to suffer through some of the worst PuGs of your life.;)

Just remember your not alone, many of us have been leveling up new characters.:cool:

[DoctorWhofan]

Your to big for the noobs and to small for the capped. This gap is only going to get wider as the level cap is raised.
It's the whole power level thing, as the level cap goes up 4 levels is not enough.

My suggestions are:
Ping on your friends and guild members.
Try to stick to the quests that have the better XP.
Be ready to suffer through some of the worst PuGs of your life.;)

Just remember your not alone, many of us have been leveling up new characters.:cool:

I agree, but all I ever do is PuG. Trust me, I've seen the worst. And the best that DDO has to offer. It doesn't help I'm trying to level a rogue. I know withthe gap when the cap goes up, but there seems to be dead air on the LFMs for 8-11. It's like everybody puts on Miracle-Gro at 7 and suddenly becomes a shiny new 12! Thereare lack of parties, and many of the LFMs that are up, are horrid, which I think what the OP was saying. However, TS is covered by me. I think when my level 8 cleric gets 11, I'll stop leveling her and use her for TS runs only. I've got enough clerics!:D

[Shamguard]

I agree, but all I ever do is PuG. Trust me, I've seen the worst. And the best that DDO has to offer. It doesn't help I'm trying to level a rogue. I know withthe gap when the cap goes up, but there seems to be dead air on the LFMs for 8-11. It's like everybody puts on Miracle-Gro at 7 and suddenly becomes a shiny new 12! Thereare lack of parties, and many of the LFMs that are up, are horrid, which I think what the OP was saying. However, TS is covered by me. I think when my level 8 cleric gets 11, I'll stop leveling her and use her for TS runs only. I've got enough clerics!:D

I just broke level 11 with Shamgard this weekend, mostly through PuGs. I got the most fun out of what happend to me on Saturday. I was trying to get reflaged for the dragon but all the VON 1-4 groups in my level range were running, or at least starting, without a rogue. So I never got flaged on Saturday. Then later that night I got tells from 3 different raid groups looking for a Rogue to run VON 5 & 6.:D Give you a hint folks, If you want a Rogue for VON 5, we need to get a group for VON 1-4.:cool:

Anyway, good luck. I still have 2 characters in the 8-10 range a Rogue/Paladin and a Dwarf Fighter. So maybe I'll see you around.:cool:

[Uamhas]

Yep, I have a new girl that's hit the mid-level blues. Last 3 times I've logged on, I've had to *sigh* build my own party. *shakes head* I hate being in charge. But then, you find these little pearls like Shamgard in the cold, slimy, snot-like layers of oysters that is mid-level. He's fun, and has a voice like a late-night jazz radio station d.j.. I kept trying to get him to talk provocative to me, but he refused to say, "Yes, I will stop and ask for directions." :p Anywho, I'll add Ifriti to my sig sooner or later. Happy Yule.

[Riorik]

The thing with Tempest Spine is, it is an easy quest, after you learn how to do it. Back when the level cap was merely 10, you'd find a lot of players who'd run it dozens of times always up to run it. Now that the cap is at 14 and it's nowhere near the loot run it used it be (same loot, but it's nowhere near as good as from other quests), the experienced players pretty much only use it to level their characters.

I can run the darn thing in my sleep, practically, and I've probably only been on 20 or 30 runs, total in the last year and a half.
Unfortunately, except for a single uncapped character - you won't see me on this quest at all. My guess is, the story is the same for a LOT of players.

Same thing applies to a lot of quests.

Nax

[Tannniss]

Im still around....and 4-5 more ex-Hellfire's are in The Order of the Asylum.......sometimes I run into Purge and Magnyr.......very rarely I stumble across Daer......:)

[DoctorWhofan]

The thing with Tempest Spine is, it is an easy quest, after you learn how to do it. Back when the level cap was merely 10, you'd find a lot of players who'd run it dozens of times always up to run it. Now that the cap is at 14 and it's nowhere near the loot run it used it be (same loot, but it's nowhere near as good as from other quests), the experienced players pretty much only use it to level their characters.

I can run the darn thing in my sleep, practically, and I've probably only been on 20 or 30 runs, total in the last year and a half.
Unfortunately, except for a single uncapped character - you won't see me on this quest at all. My guess is, the story is the same for a LOT of players.

Same thing applies to a lot of quests.

Nax

I would disagree. i have run this quest on a average twice a day for over a year. I'm not the Goddess of Tempest's Spine for nothing! :p I ran it that many times because I WAS POOR, and with at least 10 chests in the quest, i was going to get some good loot to sell. I didn't wste any wands or scrolls on te quest, so it was lways a money maker for me. Now i run it for fun, and so does alot of people.

All in all, it is the one of the most enjoyable quests in the game. And one of the favourite raids, according to the poll. There are no strings attached, no flagging, no nothing, just fire resist and running with 11 other people. And it is the only quest of its type in the game (so far, awaiting for mod 6 eagerly!) In short, PEOPLE RUN IT FOR FUN! My level 11 cleric and Paladin don't even get xp for it, as most of my char. I don't care. I'm having fun, and I've asked 11 other people to join me in the pure enjoyment of the game. When the loot and xp doesn't stop you from running the quest, that means Turbine got it right.

And Tempest's Spine is one of those quests.

[Shamguard]

Yep, I have a new girl that's hit the mid-level blues. Last 3 times I've logged on, I've had to *sigh* build my own party. *shakes head* I hate being in charge. But then, you find these little pearls like Shamgard in the cold, slimy, snot-like layers of oysters that is mid-level. He's fun, and has a voice like a late-night jazz radio station d.j.. I kept trying to get him to talk provocative to me, but he refused to say, "Yes, I will stop and ask for directions." :p Anywho, I'll add Ifriti to my sig sooner or later. Happy Yule.

:o:o:o

Sorry I am just the quiet type.:) Just like anyother man, "I NEVER get lost.":D

Anyway it's people like sean, & DrWho that keep me coming back to play.

Though I hope DrWho as forgiven me for my mistake on "the" Cabal trap, then that "Cry for Help" run.:o Andromeda is capped and I was a little friskier than I should have been.:o Andy's been banished to only doing Reaver raids, at least till the level cap is raised.:cool:

[DoctorWhofan]

:o:o:o

Sorry I am just the quiet type.:) Just like anyother man, "I NEVER get lost.":D

Anyway it's people like sean, & DrWho that keep me coming back to play.

Though I hope DrWho as forgiven me for my mistake on "the" Cabal trap, then that "Cry for Help" run.:o Andromeda is capped and I was a little friskier than I should have been.:o Andy's been banished to only doing Reaver raids, at least till the level cap is raised.:cool:

Welllllll, you are not on my nasty list so yeeah, i must of forgiven you!:D

[Shamguard]

Welllllll, you are not on my nasty list so yeeah, i must of forgiven you!:D

Must be my roguish charm.:cool::p

[5footStep]

I will add this as I have met a few new players to DDO in the last month or so... who have tempest as their first raid whatsoever. Its novel, it is often their first time in a 12 man group or experienced such a confusing map as TS can be at times. Also.. don't forget alot of the newer players.. not only may it be their first raid.. but they are still learning about builds, gear, feats, enchancments as well as just strategy. They will most likely be playing on an untwinked 28 pt build. Forgotten what that was like???

Here is a fun reminder you can try. Take 11 of your closest friends and form a Naked Tempest Raid. Remove ALL your gear and weapons from your body slots and erase all of your enhancements. Then start Tempest spine. Next put the stipulation that you can only wear and utilize the weapons and gear you find in chests.

I have done this a few times and its a blast... and its a quick flashback to your first tempest spine :D

[DoctorWhofan]

I will add this as I have met a few new players to DDO in the last month or so... who have tempest as their first raid whatsoever. Its novel, it is often their first time in a 12 man group or experienced such a confusing map as TS can be at times. Also.. don't forget alot of the newer players.. not only may it be their first raid.. but they are still learning about builds, gear, feats, enchancments as well as just strategy. They will most likely be playing on an untwinked 28 pt build. Forgotten what that was like???

Here is a fun reminder you can try. Take 11 of your closest friends and form a Naked Tempest Raid. Remove ALL your gear and weapons from your body slots and erase all of your enhancements. Then start Tempest spine. Next put the stipulation that you can only wear and utilize the weapons and gear you find in chests.

I have done this a few times and its a blast... and its a quick flashback to your first tempest spine :D

I hope not! My first TS raid was the single most horrid expirance i ever had! I almost quit the game over it. But I'm stubborn and I stuck around and now i made it my duty to make sure noone ever has the same experiance as I did. I can't catch them all, but I will get most.

To all guild leaders: send one of my people a tell or Trissa a letter if you have people who need to run through it. I am more than happy to set some runs up.

again, alts: Trissa, Kleo, Scully, Mulder, Kleo, Sousake, Kaname, Oncoming, Caboose, Allura, ROselyn, Tnannet, and Keatheran

[Westerner]

I've run TS 3x with mixed experiences.

Run 1 - was needed for rogue skills. Good leader, intro'd everyone to the quest, helped ppl over the difficult parts to make sure we stayed together. Got lost on the swim but leader came back for me. Got blown off and died at the boss fight, but felt I contributed by unlocking doors and had a good time from the excitement of the raid.

Run 2 - Leader starts off by saying, if you're new, keep up, or we'll have to leave you behind. I stick to leader like glue to avoid this. Another player gets annoyed that I'm not disabling traps. I say, I was told to keep up, if party wants to slow down, I'll be happy to disable. Get blown off at the top, don't know why, or how to fight the giant. I say, I got blown off, but am alive, is there any way to get back to the top. No one answers, they all grab their loot and FO. Meh.

Run 3 - Get lost on run to entrance, but someone comes back for us. Am able to keep up with group. Party explains boss fight and how to avoid getting blown off. I contribute on kills, but no time to disable. I stay back from the edge during the boss fight and finally get loot.

I know the quest well enough to keep up, I guess. Would like to learn more, but don't have much opportunity to, now that I've leveled past it.

[DoctorWhofan]

I've run TS 3x with mixed experiences.

Run 1 - was needed for rogue skills. Good leader, intro'd everyone to the quest, helped ppl over the difficult parts to make sure we stayed together. Got lost on the swim but leader came back for me. Got blown off and died at the boss fight, but felt I contributed by unlocking doors and had a good time from the excitement of the raid.

Run 2 - Leader starts off by saying, if you're new, keep up, or we'll have to leave you behind. I stick to leader like glue to avoid this. Another player gets annoyed that I'm not disabling traps. I say, I was told to keep up, if party wants to slow down, I'll be happy to disable. Get blown off at the top, don't know why, or how to fight the giant. I say, I got blown off, but am alive, is there any way to get back to the top. No one answers, they all grab their loot and FO. Meh.

Run 3 - Get lost on run to entrance, but someone comes back for us. Am able to keep up with group. Party explains boss fight and how to avoid getting blown off. I contribute on kills, but no time to disable. I stay back from the edge during the boss fight and finally get loot.

I know the quest well enough to keep up, I guess. Would like to learn more, but don't have much opportunity to, now that I've leveled past it.



I do high endcapped runs too. Almost every day. Would love to show you around

[Pittminion]

Im still around....and 4-5 more ex-Hellfire's are in The Order of the Asylum.......sometimes I run into Purge and Magnyr.......very rarely I stumble across Daer......:)
Nothing to add, just another ex-hellfire. And I do remember you even if you don't remember me.

[Westerner]

I do high endcapped runs too. Almost every day. Would love to show you around
Big hat tip for the backstage tour!!

After completing the quest, DoctorWhofan took the time to show me the quest in detail. I picked up an extra 4 chests that I missed, learned the puzzle, some rules of thumb for not getting lost, how to handle the boss fight, just about everything.

A bounty was generously offered for the killing blow on the beholder. A WF took him down before I even knew where he was, darn robot! However, I made up for it by landing the killing shot on Sorjek. Ok, so what if it was from behind. :)

Thank you!!

[Sokar6000]

My question to the OP is, were any instructions given out?

I know that it would be nice if people who have never done a quest before would speak out, but you can't just assume that everybody knows the quest.

[TreknaQudane]

I miss Weirdo's TS runs...

[DoctorWhofan]

Big hat tip for the backstage tour!!

After completing the quest, DoctorWhofan took the time to show me the quest in detail. I picked up an extra 4 chests that I missed, learned the puzzle, some rules of thumb for not getting lost, how to handle the boss fight, just about everything.

A bounty was generously offered for the killing blow on the beholder. A WF took him down before I even knew where he was, darn robot! However, I made up for it by landing the killing shot on Sorjek. Ok, so what if it was from behind. :)

Thank you!!

HEY ! I killed the other beholder!!! so THere! :p No problem withthe help, and I'll do it for anyone who wishes a guided tour. Let me know and if I have the time, you will get the tour.

[GrayOldDruid]

I only recently ran Tempest Spine for the first time... it took me 15 feet to get my little sorcerer killed by fire elementals, because everyone took off running BEFORE I had time to put on fire resist - and I had NO idea where I was going. Everything else was confusing and I didn't know where to go or where to not go... so I died again when I got surrounded by mephits and blinded... while the person aggroing them ran back down to the rest of the group to finish them off... duh-hu... The rest of it, I managed to keep up... but still don't know what was going on... just that I was helping some and kept my eye on Eryol Flynn... :D

So, cut people some slack - if you want "Experienced Only" post it on the LFM. I did send a tell saying, "I've never done the raid, but would love to" and accepted the invite. So, I let at least the leader know I had no idea what I was doing... some people don't know to do that yet... :D

[DoctorWhofan]

I only recently ran Tempest Spine for the first time... it took me 15 feet to get my little sorcerer killed by fire elementals, because everyone took off running BEFORE I had time to put on fire resist - and I had NO idea where I was going. Everything else was confusing and I didn't know where to go or where to not go... so I died again when I got surrounded by mephits and blinded... while the person aggroing them ran back down to the rest of the group to finish them off... duh-hu... The rest of it, I managed to keep up... but still don't know what was going on... just that I was helping some and kept my eye on Eryol Flynn... :D

So, cut people some slack - if you want "Experienced Only" post it on the LFM. I did send a tell saying, "I've never done the raid, but would love to" and accepted the invite. So, I let at least the leader know I had no idea what I was doing... some people don't know to do that yet... :D

again, if you want a TS run ran right, just send me a PM, and I give u a list of my alts. I would love to do TS with you the right way. That is, noone gets left behind everyone learns the quest and EVERYONE gets the chests.

[Ringos]

I only recently ran Tempest Spine for the first time... it took me 15 feet to get my little sorcerer killed by fire elementals, because everyone took off running BEFORE I had time to put on fire resist - and I had NO idea where I was going. Everything else was confusing and I didn't know where to go or where to not go... so I died again when I got surrounded by mephits and blinded... while the person aggroing them ran back down to the rest of the group to finish them off... duh-hu... The rest of it, I managed to keep up... but still don't know what was going on... just that I was helping some and kept my eye on Eryol Flynn... :D

So, cut people some slack - if you want "Experienced Only" post it on the LFM. I did send a tell saying, "I've never done the raid, but would love to" and accepted the invite. So, I let at least the leader know I had no idea what I was doing... some people don't know to do that yet... :D

My advice:

Step 1: Stick DoctorWhoFan's alts on your Friends list

Step 2: When you see her alts log in, send her a Tell

Step 3: Listen to her (even if she is being a bit 'momish'

Step 4: Open all the chests after she tells you where to get them

Step 5: Come back and tell us how much better a run with her through TS is

I really need to run some alts through there. I gotta start following my own advice!!!!

[Uamhas]

That guy was a crackup. He was the Queen of Tempest Spine before the merger, but he disappeared one day, and suddenly, no more wierd TS runs at 3 am.

[DoctorWhofan]

My advice:

Step 1: Stick DoctorWhoFan's alts on your Friends list

Step 2: When you see her alts log in, send her a Tell

Step 3: Listen to her (even if she is being a bit 'momish'

Step 4: Open all the chests after she tells you where to get them

Step 5: Come back and tell us how much better a run with her through TS is

I really need to run some alts through there. I gotta start following my own advice!!!!

(gasps, panting for breath)

Five
TS
runs
today!


(nods)

wait!!!

momish???? It's Den Mothering!!! :D

Seriously, its a blast, even when it takes 3 trys to get Fire and Ice right cuz you have 7 new people in the party with you. But you know when you are doing it right when one ofthem sticks around to do 3 of the 5 runs in a day with you. Geez! my level 8 cleric doesn't even get xp for it anymore! Oh well. BRING IT ON!!!!

[Master_of_None]

I had the honor of doing Tempest with the Doctor (as Roselyn) last night, and it's all true. Kept everyone together, made sure everyone got all the chests, explained what to do. Didn't lose patience as one player whose chat server wasn't working ignored all her instructions ("Do not go past me" "Don't go past me!" "Nobody go past me!"--guess what happened). A few more runs with her, I might actually know my way around in there.

Aleswiller is at your service for future TS runs, Doc, as is Soraia when she gets high enough. Great fun, and made a couple k in plat selling the loot.

[DoctorWhofan]

:
I had the honor of doing Tempest with the Doctor (as Roselyn) last night, and it's all true. Kept everyone together, made sure everyone got all the chests, explained what to do. Didn't lose patience as one player whose chat server wasn't working ignored all her instructions ("Do not go past me" "Don't go past me!" "Nobody go past me!"--guess what happened). A few more runs with her, I might actually know my way around in there.

Aleswiller is at your service for future TS runs, Doc, as is Soraia when she gets high enough. Great fun, and made a couple k in plat selling the loot.

:o:o:o Thanks! I try.

You forgot the person, after i told everyone NOT to go into the portal yet, found himself with Sorjek!! At least he was good humoured about it! Then the very confused "should I use firewall on Iron Golems or not?" Which wasn't his fault! Or the know-it-all cleric who forgot to ask for a jump cuz she couldn't get anyone else to get Fire, promptly falls into the lava and dies.:)

Roselyn is the current mid level cleric who will be my TS runner. I have rogue that needs to do it, but she can wait.

[Master_of_None]

:

Or the know-it-all cleric who forgot to ask for a jump cuz she couldn't get anyone else to get Fire, promptly falls into the lava and dies.:)



Hmm...now who could that have been?:rolleyes: Don't want to break any forum guidelines by mentioning names, so I'll just say that said cleric still did a fine job. Maybe she just shouldn't worry about a harmless grease or two :D.

[MrWizard]

/rant on

I have had the 3 worst TS runs over the past 2 days. 2+hrs each. (This excludes Scully's run on 12/20) Backtracking to pickup people can't make the lava run, who drown, who can't stay with the group and get lost. People who mess with the puzzle, let the rust monster out, kill fire 4 times when he's facinated.

Is there that big of a gap in skill between capped players and low-mid levels? If I pug one of my 14's, everyone knows what they're doing/ suposed to be doing, and things run smoothly. I've pug'd Horseman up to 9, and there seems to be a lack player talentin the mid-lower level player base. This isn't a blaket statement - roughly 40% of the lower population knows what's up. Another 40% of you I'd give a B- to C. I can live with the middle of the pack and try to help you. It's in the other 20 % that get the F grade. Wow, how have you made it to level 7? You're the ones who do the annoying stuff (see above). Grrrr.

/rant off

On a side note, is anyone that used to be in Hellfire still on. We used to 3 man TS in 15 minutes. Good times.

IT just is not a good tempest spine run unless someone is still entering while the top two are going after sorjek...and everyone is spread out over the whole dungeon. That is the way it should be, 16 minutes of wild fun running through it.
Most long time players can duo or trio it anyway, so just bring everyone for fun and giggles and go for it....

Nothing better than to hear everyone gather for fire and ice and take 10 minutes of prep only to find out you and the ranger have already vorpaled them both and are killing achikar....sigh...the good old days.

[DoctorWhofan]

Hmm...now who could that have been?:rolleyes: Don't want to break any forum guidelines by mentioning names, so I'll just say that said cleric still did a fine job. Maybe she just shouldn't worry about a harmless grease or two :D.

:D

Can I nominate said cleric for the Coyle award? For opening her mouth and sticking her plate boot in it, and in front of a brand spanking new guildie too! Good thing he dragged Fire back where he could be killed by the party, while said cleric was still trying to jump her dead body out of the space between the two bridges. Good thing the other puller kept the group together.

FYI: my alts...
Trissa-cleric
Kleo-sorcerer
Sousake-Paladin
thetenth-cleric
mulder-paladin
Roselyn-cleric
Caboose-paladin/fighter
Oncoming-wizard
TNannet-rogue/cleric
Scully-cleric
Lanarissa-cleric (not MY cleric, but I have control of him)
Keatheran-Ranger
Keitherland-paladin
Tramin-cleric
Allura-cleric
Courwin-bard (healing)

....ahhh yes, Turbine, I am yours for life!

[Uamhas]

:D

Can I nominate said cleric for the Coyle award? For opening her mouth and sticking her plate boot in it, and in front of a brand spanking new guildie too! Good thing he dragged Fire back where he could be killed by the party, while said cleric was still trying to jump her dead body out of the space between the two bridges. Good thing the other puller kept the group together.

FYI: my alts...
Trissa-cleric
Kleo-sorcerer
Sousake-Paladin
thetenth-cleric
mulder-paladin
Roselyn-cleric
Caboose-paladin/fighter
Oncoming-wizard
TNannet-rogue/cleric
Scully-cleric
Lanarissa-cleric (not MY cleric, but I have control of him)
Keatheran-Ranger
Keitherland-paladin
Tramin-cleric
Allura-cleric
Courwin-bard (healing)

....ahhh yes, Turbine, I am yours for life!

You're my kinda girl, darlin.;)