Ethics Question

[Samadhi]

Scenario:
Running the Reaver. We fail, because the party leader can't handle the puzzle. Not a time issue, he uses up all 12 guesses and still couldn't get it right. No, he is not a child.

The Question:
Should the party leader have disclosed that although he would be doing the puzzle he was not proficient with it?

The Good:
I applaud players that don't use a puzzle solver, and are willing to take chances to learn. (play online mastermind until you are good enough to do it under pressure...)

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

Comments invited.

[Ghoste]

It's also a possibility this person has done the puzzle before and considered themself competent. In that case it may not be a question of dishonesty or ethics.

Do you know they know what you claim they know?

[Samadhi]

Now that is a good point Ghoste - I certainly won't claim to know the person's mind.

What I do have, is him saying "I failed another one!" before I dropped party. My evaluation of his tone, at the time, was that it was sardonic to the point of my thinking that perhaps he failed it purposefully as a joke on the party. My irritation at the time, however, made it so that I will not qualify myself as an impartial judge at that point in time - hence why this fact was not included in the initial post.

[issiana]

although i hate failing quests my response would be tempered by the performance of the group in general.
if we had a fun time, then its no issue,
if it was a "i'm only sticking this out for the loot" type of bad group then yeah i'd drop after that failure.

sometimes its not really a waste of your time if you fail simply because you had fun failing!

[~Maui_86]

i think everyone should learn that puzzle its not hard at all. that way when u do join a pug group u can say "hey do you want me to do the puzzle, im pretty good at it" ( then ur puzzle solving problems are over). Bassicaly what im trying to say is if ur limited in playing time maybe u should depend on urself and ur own knowledge that way u hold ur fate in ur own hands. form ur own group lead it and do the puzzle. that way if u fail maybe then u will get a little taste of not everyones perfect if u succeed then u solved ur problem.

[smatt]

Hmm, I failed it yesterday..... 3rd time in 57 runs on main... No I never use a puzzle solver... Think that's chincy really.....

It happens...... I could blame it on the 3 casters who had 67 dance circles up instead of a couple and actaully KILLING the ele's instead of letting them build up in front of the puzzle.. But nawwwww.. I messed it up :)

[Aspenor]

Scenario:
Running the Reaver. We fail, because the party leader can't handle the puzzle. Not a time issue, he uses up all 12 guesses and still couldn't get it right. No, he is not a child.

The Question:
Should the party leader have disclosed that although he would be doing the puzzle he was not proficient with it?

The Good:
I applaud players that don't use a puzzle solver, and are willing to take chances to learn. (play online mastermind until you are good enough to do it under pressure...)

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

Comments invited.

I did that once...messed it up cuz I'm colorblind. Felt bad, but the next run we completed it.

I told everybody I was colorblind, that I do the puzzle by numbers and not colors. They let me do it, I didn't promise anything :)

Ya can't win every one.

[Dogchair]

Everyone does something someone else finds chincy. You can't make everyone happy. I do agree with running your own raid if things feel out of your hands. I suggest motivating yourself to either learn the puzzle and offer suggestions, or host the raid with you as the solver.

No one does anything the way I want them to all the time, even me, i screw me up alot. I host alot of pugs, and i join pugs with the idea that i may learn something new, even if "new" is patience and holding my tongue. :-)

The odd thing about this community we have online is that it reflects like a funhouse mirror, our own selves and lives, at times.

Proactive is the way to go. Ask up front, who is, who is and who is. Don't like your answers you receive, stay or move on, but you can now make a choice.

ack, i sound preachy. sorry

Dogchair.

[Samadhi]

i think everyone should learn that puzzle its not hard at all. that way when u do join a pug group u can say "hey do you want me to do the puzzle, im pretty good at it" ( then ur puzzle solving problems are over). Bassicaly what im trying to say is if ur limited in playing time maybe u should depend on urself and ur own knowledge that way u hold ur fate in ur own hands. form ur own group lead it and do the puzzle. that way if u fail maybe then u will get a little taste of not everyones perfect if u succeed then u solved ur problem.

Actually Maui, just for the reasons you stated, I usually do a) form my own group and b) do the puzzle myself. So far haven't failed one yet (did I just jinx myself :P) and my usual completion time is 40 seconds (assuming a puller that isn't distracted).

As with the stated problem that night, however, it was a situation of limited time. Should I post an LFM and try to compete with a group already recruiting? Even on my cleric, that would take longer than just joining an existing group. Whenever someone asks for a "puzzle solver" I ALWAYS volunteer for exactly the reasons stated above.

Thanks for the comments though everyone. Wanted to expose myself to some differing thoughts on the matter.

[~Maui_86]

right on man im glad u can do all that stuff not everyone can. it was just a suggestion but just try to remember not everyones perfect at that stuff u know. and if u join a pick up group u really never know what ur gonna get. the best thing u can do is offer ur assistance.

i wanted to also say i really enjoy pick up groups :) great way to meet new players. but joining a pick up group for a raid is just not my cup of tea. always very unpredictable.

[Bebopalula]

I did that once...messed it up cuz I'm colorblind. Felt bad, but the next run we completed it.

I told everybody I was colorblind, that I do the puzzle by numbers and not colors. They let me do it, I didn't promise anything :)

Ya can't win every one.

Lets unite and sue Turbine for it's thoughtless abuse of us colorblind people! If people can sue McDonalds over a warm cup of coffee - why not? I will contact a disability lawyer today!

First thing I say when running reaver - I am colorblind, who's doing puzzle?

[Aranticus]

Lets unite and sue Turbine for it's thoughtless abuse of us colorblind people! If people can sue McDonalds over a warm cup of coffee - why not? I will contact a disability lawyer today!

First thing I say when running reaver - I am colorblind, who's doing puzzle?

this is the reason why stupidity is so random these day. my nephew asked me a question few days back. "why does the cup has a 'caution: hot contents' label"?

answer: coz there are people so dumb they dunno that the cup of hot coffee they ordered is hot!

[kaidendager]

Thats a hell of a thread necromancy for a comment about McDonald's coffee. I'm actually impressed.

[Whippy]

I've never really agreed with lfm saying 'need puzzle solver', if you can't solve it yourself, don't run the raid, there will be another reaver group any minute.

As for what happened to you OP, who can say if it was greifing or whether the guy genuinely got confused somewhere, mistakes happen, but doing it on purpose is obviously wrong.

I applaud people who don't use solvers, especially for the reaver, colour blind people or people with IQ's of less than 90 aside, noone should need a solver for it. Practise the online mastermind... get confident with it, then try it out, there will pretty much always be someone in the party who will watch your back if you ask them to. And yea, the first couple of times will be scary and at the end you might shake a little from the adrenaline, but after a few times (or 400) you'll be doing it with your eyes shut, standing on your head with your hands tied behind your back!

Down with lamo's who are too lazy to use their brains for something so simple!

[soupertc]

most of the time when someone messes things up in RL or in game they try to offset it by humor. He could have been trying to be funny cause he knew he had 11 people with him that were not very happy....he just had a Epic Fail in the humor dept. I've seen people that I know can do the puzzle and have done it alot fail before....it gets irrating when a easy raid like that fails...but I just move on.

Ah **** I just realized 2 things......1 this isn't in the genral forums( sorry to intrude into ur server thread )
and 2 this thread is OLD

I'm a NOOB and had a EPIC FAIL..****!

[Uska]

While I would have been mildly annoyed at failing the quest I would have gone with the op again at a latter time if I couldnt then due to time. as I encourage people do try to do the puzzle without a solver I cant do it myself as I am partialy color blind and have trouble seeing the crystal color but willing to let anyone who wants try.

[Lehrman]

I don't use a solver and completion varies from 4-7 "guesses" normally. I failed once about 6 months ago and most of the players did not come back for a second go around either because they were out of time or felt that the solver--in this case me--was not competent. It happens, rarely, but it happens.

Its possible that the guy running the raid has solved it the last 99 times, and failed this once. Its also possible he has failed the last 99 times and this makes 100. There really is no way to know off of a single run. If he fails twice in a row and its a 3 color puzzle...or a 2 color...form your own reaver.

[Uska]

Now that is a good point Ghoste - I certainly won't claim to know the person's mind.

What I do have, is him saying "I failed another one!" before I dropped party. My evaluation of his tone, at the time, was that it was sardonic to the point of my thinking that perhaps he failed it purposefully as a joke on the party. My irritation at the time, however, made it so that I will not qualify myself as an impartial judge at that point in time - hence why this fact was not included in the initial post.

Now if he failed it as a joke thats different I would have noted the name and made sure my friends new about his joke and let it go from there.

[Lehrman]

this is the reason why stupidity is so random these day. my nephew asked me a question few days back. "why does the cup has a 'caution: hot contents' label"?

answer: coz there are people so dumb they dunno that the cup of hot coffee they ordered is hot!

Everyone knows that a cup of hot coffee is hot, but if you are excessively stupid and put the cup between your thighs and crush the cup while driving...well then you "didn't know" to the tune of $5mil. The disclaimer is on the cup because of one person who sued McDonald's because she could not take a little bit of personal responsibility. She won the case.

The punchline? Its been over 15 years and she has yet to see a dime because the judgement is tied up in appeals. Ha!

[krud]

Wow! dawn of the living thread!

seriously, i've been the guy in that situation once. I can do the puzzle without the solver, and since I figured out how to do it, I have had no problems, ...until recently. I got ahead of myself, then got befuddled, and in the panic of running out of time could not regroup in time to correct it.

I apologized profusely, a few people dropped group in frustration. Nobody likes to be the one to make the party fail (well, some do). However, think of how many other half hours you wasted. It can easily be run again, and remember that mistakes can just as easily be made when using the solver too.

btw - I have not had any trouble at all since then. really "I know the puzzle" ;)

[Montrose]

Actually Maui, just for the reasons you stated, I usually do a) form my own group and b) do the puzzle myself. So far haven't failed one yet (did I just jinx myself :P) and my usual completion time is 40 seconds (assuming a puller that isn't distracted).

As with the stated problem that night, however, it was a situation of limited time. Should I post an LFM and try to compete with a group already recruiting? Even on my cleric, that would take longer than just joining an existing group. Whenever someone asks for a "puzzle solver" I ALWAYS volunteer for exactly the reasons stated above.

Thanks for the comments though everyone. Wanted to expose myself to some differing thoughts on the matter.

It's possible to solve the puzzle even if you run out of guesses (assuming you don't run out of time). You have all the info from the previous pulls, plus you get feedback in the form of elemental spawns.

Elementals spawn when you get white results. So if you put the colors in, pull the lever, and get one elemental then you have one white result. Black and blank do not spawn, so it's tricky but theorhetically possible.

[Khroc]

Lets unite and sue Turbine for it's thoughtless abuse of us colorblind people! If people can sue McDonalds over a warm cup of coffee - why not? I will contact a disability lawyer today!

First thing I say when running reaver - I am colorblind, who's doing puzzle?

Nice.. My favorite quest to pike !!!

[Draccus]

Everyone knows that a cup of hot coffee is hot, but if you are excessively stupid and put the cup between your thighs and crush the cup while driving...well then you "didn't know" to the tune of $5mil. The disclaimer is on the cup because of one person who sued McDonald's because she could not take a little bit of personal responsibility. She won the case.

The punchline? Its been over 15 years and she has yet to see a dime because the judgement is tied up in appeals. Ha!

If you're going to post the details of this case, you might want to post all of them.

Did you know that that particular McD's was warned by inspectors on several occasions that their coffee was too hot? Did you know that the coffee in question was significantly hotter than the maximum allowed by McD's? Did you know that people spill coffee on themselves all the time and aren't injured if the coffee is kept to the correct temperature?

I hate frivolous lawsuits where stupid people think they are victims and owed something but this case isn't as cut and dry as people like to think it is.

[Khroc]

If you're going to post the details of this case, you might want to post all of them.

Did you know that that particular McD's was warned by inspectors on several occasions that their coffee was too hot? Did you know that the coffee in question was significantly hotter than the maximum allowed by McD's? Did you know that people spill coffee on themselves all the time and aren't injured if the coffee is kept to the correct temperature?

I hate frivolous lawsuits where stupid people think they are victims and owed something but this case isn't as cut and dry as people like to think it is.

Are you kidding me? $1,000,000 for being scalded from your own negligence? Maybe like $50,000 ... maybe

[oogly54]

I have completed the Reaver over 500 times now, and out of those 500 I have been the puzzle solver at least 400 of them and I have failed three times or less than 1%. I do not use a solver because a solver is slower and still can cause failures (geting lost i the chart or reading it incorrectly). There are times when you have a few different options as to where the colors go and you can get confused. i like to think I am a relatively intelligent person, but I know that I am not such a genious that I am unable to fail. The last time I failed wasn't so long ago, about a month, after I had sucessfully completed it like 350 times.

[smatt]

Everyone knows that a cup of hot coffee is hot, but if you are excessively stupid and put the cup between your thighs and crush the cup while driving...well then you "didn't know" to the tune of $5mil. The disclaimer is on the cup because of one person who sued McDonald's because she could not take a little bit of personal responsibility. She won the case.

The punchline? Its been over 15 years and she has yet to see a dime because the judgement is tied up in appeals. Ha!


Hmm, I seem to remember that the orginal case was won, and then the award reduced to $50,000, and paid in full. And that particular McDonald's coffee was 175 degrees...... Very hot.... BUT if you're stupid enough to put hot coffee between your legs.....


This brings to mind a VERY sad case that just happened...... An 8 year old boy being allowed to fire a fully automatic Uzi..... Well guess what happened..... Extremely sad case of stupid human behavior by adults......

[Sweets]

Scenario:
Running the Reaver. We fail, because the party leader can't handle the puzzle. Not a time issue, he uses up all 12 guesses and still couldn't get it right. No, he is not a child.

The Question:
Should the party leader have disclosed that although he would be doing the puzzle he was not proficient with it?

The Good:
I applaud players that don't use a puzzle solver, and are willing to take chances to learn. (play online mastermind until you are good enough to do it under pressure...)

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

Comments invited.

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

This line really got my attention in your post. The fact that you said you wasted 1/2 hour of your lives is kinda funny. If you play this game then you are still wasting your time weather or not you succed in beating a quest. I play this game for fun and for the fellowship of the others players in the game. I do realize that I could find something better to do with my time then to sit in front of my monitor wasting hours at a time to achieve nothing that will help me in life. This game can't be measured by time wasted , if it was then alot of use would be guilty of letting fantasy controll a good part of our lives which would make us pathetic and shallow.

As far as the ethics part comes into play. If you join a pug group with a leader you dont know then all gloves are off when it comes to blamming them for their mistakes. Remember you joined their group therfore releasing any leadership responsibility. Point being you ask to join their group and if he had an lfm up which I'm sure he did then you made the mistake of requesting to join his group. Not to mention that he probley just got confused and flusterd while doing the puzzle which caused you to fail. Doubt it was dont intentually but if you really think it was then pass on the name so the rest of us know better than to join into a group with a non team player.

That being said sorry to hear you failed because it does suck when you dont have the time to rerun it.

[Return_To_Forever]

Necrotic Touch

[Zenako]

Necrotic Touch

For sure...

but keep in mind that when this thread first posted...almost a YEAR ago, the Reaver was still relatively new compared to now, and the number of players who had the puzzle down pat were a lot fewer back then....

Gotta agree about the time wasted comment too. ANY time you spend in the GAME is wasted as far as the rest of your life is concerned. Just like watching a repeat of Heroes or Friends, or Trek, is time "wasted" from the rest of your life.

[Gunga]

Even if you've practiced the puzzle, watching and taking mental notes as a skilled puzzle solver completed it, like I did, at some point you need to get up there and do it yourself.

I never messed the puzzle up though.

[Vyctor]

Hmm, I seem to remember that the orginal case was won, and then the award reduced to $50,000, and paid in full. And that particular McDonald's coffee was 175 degrees...... Very hot.... BUT if you're stupid enough to put hot coffee between your legs.....


This brings to mind a VERY sad case that just happened...... An 8 year old boy being allowed to fire a fully automatic Uzi..... Well guess what happened..... Extremely sad case of stupid human behavior by adults......

No, what happened was she originally tried to just recover her medical bills which totaled something like 20k for the degree of burns and I believe she required a skin graft, but McDonalds refused. The judgment was awarded so high to punish McDonalds, because although they knew that the coffee was too hot at that particular store McDonalds did nothing to correct the issue. They're call punitive damages and intended to create action on the part of the person being punished to not fail to correct known deficiencies that create probable harm to people, among other things.

[captain1z]

I would blame all 12 members of the group for the failure.

- We all go in with the idea that its ok to "pike" the raid and many never learn what it takes to complete it, they are just along for the ride. I admit I have like many others, I did learn to do the fly part and Ive been playing mastermind online at work (dont tell my boss)

I think at some point everyone should at least attempt to learn how to complete the quest and if you see someone get to pull #7 with no solution someone should ask if they can jump in and finish if they are able to do it in 3.

failures happen, the win is never a gaurentee just bad luck sometimes.

[Airie]

<sarcasm> I hate it when people have the audacity to use a puzzle solver in the reaver! That's actually when and why I bought and signed up for DDO is when I heard it had a cool graphical interface to Mastermind, which is my true love in gaming. </sarcasm>

Seriously... why do people care if people use solvers or dont? I've done the reaver many times, and in all different types of party makeup, and I can say for certain there are far more stimulating challenges in this game than a mastermind puzzle. And that's coming from a guy who likes brain teasers...

Some people like to entertain themselves in DDO by gathering collectibles, some like the satisfaction of seeing a max'd out favor, some like to roleplay, some play permadeath, some like to solo VoD, and some like to be puzzle gurus. My point being, why do y'all care if I use a solver? Heck, I'll even have the audacity to volunteer to solve the puzzle and not tell people I use a solver! *SHOCK*

Guess what... I do that because I dont care about mastermind at all, I have nothing to prove to an elementary grade brain teaser set to easy-mode (10 guesses and 4 colors is about as easy as MM gets guys), and it doesn't cross my mind that I need to issue a disclaimer to the group I'm in to make sure I don't ruffle some puzzle purists feathers. I dont care if that ruffles your feathers. You know what ruffles my feathers? Waiting for 30 minutes to start the freaking quest that can easily be soloed might be one thing I find way more offensive than using a solver.

Also, FWIW, I use the solver because it's easy. Yeah if I had to ALT TAB to use the solver I would probably just solve the puzzle the traditional way, but I programmed a PocketPC mastermind solver in a few hours of coding, implemented one of the solving algorithms and now I just use my phone to run the solver during the quest. Works great while soloing or otherwise.

Yeah, I'm a software architect. I do that stuff for a living. Learning the solution algorithms and implementing a solver in a embedded device was a cool toy project to me. Didn't take much more than 4 hours of coding after I did all my homework on the math and patterns involved.

<sarcasm> But yeah, my IQ is probably too low to solve this puzzle, I better go back to traditional solving to prove how smart I am to all the player base of Ghallanda </sarcasm>


All that said... I respect your style and purist approach, but am not at all impressed that you can solve an elementary brain teaser, and my opinion has not and will not change to a puzzle purist... ever.

Furthermore, if people are talking smack on solver users, A) I usually stop listening, B) my opinion is not affected by their judgments, and C) I will usually lose a little bit of respect for that person talking smack for what I perceive to be a narrow-minded perspective.

[Khroc]

<sarcasm> I hate it when people have the audacity to use a puzzle solver in the reaver! That's actually when and why I bought and signed up for DDO is when I heard it had a cool graphical interface to Mastermind, which is my true love in gaming. </sarcasm>

Seriously... why do people care if people use solvers or dont? I've done the reaver many times, and in all different types of party makeup, and I can say for certain there are far more stimulating challenges in this game than a mastermind puzzle. And that's coming from a guy who likes brain teasers...

Some people like to entertain themselves in DDO by gathering collectibles, some like the satisfaction of seeing a max'd out favor, some like to roleplay, some play permadeath, some like to solo VoD, and some like to be puzzle gurus. My point being, why do y'all care if I use a solver? Heck, I'll even have the audacity to volunteer to solve the puzzle and not tell people I use a solver! *SHOCK*

Guess what... I do that because I dont care about mastermind at all, I have nothing to prove to an elementary grade brain teaser set to easy-mode (10 guesses and 4 colors is about as easy as MM gets guys), and it doesn't cross my mind that I need to issue a disclaimer to the group I'm in to make sure I don't ruffle some puzzle purists feathers. I dont care if that ruffles your feathers. You know what ruffles my feathers? Waiting for 30 minutes to start the freaking quest that can easily be soloed might be one thing I find way more offensive than using a solver.

Also, FWIW, I use the solver because it's easy. Yeah if I had to ALT TAB to use the solver I would probably just solve the puzzle the traditional way, but I programmed a PocketPC mastermind solver in a few hours of coding, implemented one of the solving algorithms and now I just use my phone to run the solver during the quest. Works great while soloing or otherwise.

Yeah, I'm a software architect. I do that stuff for a living. Learning the solution algorithms and implementing a solver in a embedded device was a cool toy project to me. Didn't take much more than 4 hours of coding after I did all my homework on the math and patterns involved.

<sarcasm> But yeah, my IQ is probably too low to solve this puzzle, I better go back to traditional solving to prove how smart I am to all the player base of Ghallanda </sarcasm>


All that said... I respect your style and purist approach, but am not at all impressed that you can solve an elementary brain teaser, and my opinion has not and will not change to a puzzle purist... ever.

Furthermore, if people are talking smack on solver users, A) I usually stop listening, B) my opinion is not affected by their judgments, and C) I will usually lose a little bit of respect for that person talking smack for what I perceive to be a narrow-minded perspective.


oh the audacity !!! First off, you lost me once you used the word algorithm . :eek:

"Yeah, I'm a software architect. I do that stuff for a living. Learning the solution algorithms and implementing a solver in a embedded device was a cool toy project to me. Didn't take much more than 4 hours of coding after I did all my homework on the math and patterns involved."

And I thought I was a geek !!! Thank you for making me feel better about myself !!