Experienced player, 1st attempt at a bard

[bandyman1]

Hello all.

Never played a Bard before, but I'm itching for a change of pace.

A buddy of mine has recently started a guild of casters and clerics, but has given me license to be the odd man out :D.

Now. I am really overwhelmed and undereducated with the options on a bard build ( and yes; I understand that this is a bard's strength ), so I'd appreciate some help from the pros.

The three things I would like;

1) A 32 point halfling build. ( you can expect about 3-4 +1 tomes at first level. )
2) I'll be running with casters and clerics almost exclusively, so being able to enhance spellcasting abilities should take great focus ( spellsinger I'm guessing )
3) With the arcanes and clerics I'm playing with, most everything is going to be dead before I can even consider drawing a weapon, so while I'd like to be able to support a low level group while I'm earning those first few levels, a melee focus is wasted for this toon.

THX in advance all.

[geezee]

Start with 17 CHA and 15 CON. Take as much INT as you need to max the skills you want. I like to take at least 5 skills on my bards(at 8 INT): perform, UMD, jump, balance, and concentration. If you dont have a haggler you will want that too. So you could start at 9 INT and burn a tome. Put the rest of your build points into DEX and STR. A few points of STR could save you wearing a STR item most of the time and will help you carry loot. WIS is an aweful choice, as we will get the feat that uses CHA for will saves in mod 6. So maybe 10 16 15 9 8 17. 16 starting DEX is fine for ranging or finesse with your bard buffs.

Good feats for cc bard: MT, IMT, SF: enchant, GSF: enchant. Heighten is nice for cc too, esp. for soundburst. Extend is good for haste and displacement, but if youre running with casters you should save your mana for cc spells whenever possible. Haste and displacement are great for battle bards, but not as mandatory for a cc casting style. So I wouldnt take extend on this guy.

If youre set on halfling you should also consider the dragonmarks. These can make you a legitimate healer, in addition to your buffing and cc. I took finesse on my DEX/cc bard, but sounds like it may be a wasted feat for you. If you do find yourself wanting to melee, you will want finesse and possibly improved crit. Toughness is a luxury you cant afford on this feat-starved character.

Multiclassing will screw up your cc spells.

Sounds like a fun group you have there. They will be happy to have this character around.

[maddmatt70]

Max out your charisma 18+ your just like any caster so do that. Con is your second most important score. The dragonmarks are a good idea if your healing first and cc second, but if you want to be the other way around probably not because you would need to invest 3 feats into them. Quicken spell feat sounds like a good idea with the casters you run with. Quicken helps your dancing ball casting speed and some other spells.. I would also use haste all the time and displacement as often as u can it saves clerics mana so they kill more things although this depends on how much of a buffer bard you want to be.. There are 4 different types of bards: 1. healing, 2. cc, 3. buffing, 4. battle and they all work figure out what is the order you want to do things and go with it - it sounds like battle is last for you then what do you want the order of the other 3 to be and build accordingly..

[Nick_RC]

Heya bandy!

Hehe this is gonna be awesome - im gonna roll around a few nmbers and stuff and try and post a build later that might cut it- are you ok with just cc/buff/healing/charming whatnot?

For anyone interested the guild he will be putting a character in is my one - main emphasis is casters/offensive casting clerics, battleclerics/bards/wizards. If anyone has some input it would be great as bards and rangers are the two classes im least experienced with at this stage in the game. Assume top of the lime equipment - pretty much anything he needs. As a guild we will make sure of it.

Cheers

N

[bandyman1]

Heya bandy!

Hehe this is gonna be awesome - im gonna roll around a few nmbers and stuff and try and post a build later that might cut it- are you ok with just cc/buff/healing/charming whatnot?

For anyone interested the guild he will be putting a character in is my one - main emphasis is casters/offensive casting clerics, battleclerics/bards/wizards. If anyone has some input it would be great as bards and rangers are the two classes im least experienced with at this stage in the game. Assume top of the lime equipment - pretty much anything he needs. As a guild we will make sure of it.

Cheers

N

Heya bro :D.

Yeah that be great!

I'm thinking mainly CC for you guys. Saves your mana for nuking:p!!! I'm also looking at boosting my buffs to beef up the melee damage on the battleclerics. Decent healing would be nice as well, so that those clerics can stay focused on swinging those weapons!

[Nick_RC]

Aye - the more i think about it spellsinger is definately the best route for our guild - the extra umd will help heaps for the healing, the reduction in sp cost will be golden...i dont think we will need to worry too much about crowd control things will be dying in swathes...although the dancing balls would be nice at chokepoints once we gather them all up.... hmmm lets thrash it out - gotta be a halfling?

N

[geezee]

Nick, youre not still in TF? Ive been too busy drinking and womanizing to logon much lately.

In response to MaddMatt, I disagree with a lot of what he said.

1) The question of odd or even starting stats. This depends on whether or not you will be raiding with the toon to get tomes and whether or not you believe that we will get +5 tomes in the end-game. For a non-human, I would start with the odd number in order to have an even number with the best tomes available at levels 14 and 20.

2) There are not 4 types of bards, there are many more. Buffing, healing, melee, and cc spells are 4 (but not all) of the areas which bards can contribute. All bards are excellent at buffing. Buffing is the thing that bards are best at. Beyond buffing, a bard can concentrate on one or more other things, including healing and cc.

3) Quicken??? While I'm not doubting the effectiveness of the feat on other casters, Ive never seen anyone on the bard board say anything about quicken. This is because bards have less mana than other casting classes. And I cant think of what spell other than dancing ball quicken would really help. There are at least 5 other feats I would take first for spellsinger.

The main thing you need to ask yourself, is what is the purpose of this character? Keep in mind that a cc bard will never be as good at cc as a cc specd wizard or even sorc, for that matter. It sounds like you want a support character, whose spellsong will boost the DCs of other casters. Combined with bard buffs and hero's companion, this sounds like a very strong support character. In this case, you will need something to do when you are not the best cc caster in the group.

So here's an idea:
Halfling Bard 14
9 16 15 9 9 17 (INT tome at lvl 1), all levelups into CHA
feats: MT, least dragonmark, heighten, 2 more dragonmarks. Or drop the dragonmarks and take IMT,SF, and GSF.
enhancements: spellsinger, hero's companion, mana, CHA, healing spells, halfling saves
skills: perform, UMD, jump, balance, concentration, haggle

Any caster would want to run with this guy.

[Arianrhod]

Another idea might be to try a ranged character (since you mention things being dead before you can get to them to melee, and many bard CC abilities are pretty short range. An elf archer (with or without ranger added for bow strength) or halfling repeater type might be worth considering. Can still be a great buffer, and have respectable to-hit (compared with all those clerics & mages, anyway), and have something to do besides heal after the fight starts.

[maddmatt70]

Nick, youre not still in TF? Ive been too busy drinking and womanizing to logon much lately.

In response to MaddMatt, I disagree with a lot of what he said.

1) The question of odd or even starting stats. This depends on whether or not you will be raiding with the toon to get tomes and whether or not you believe that we will get +5 tomes in the end-game. For a non-human, I would start with the odd number in order to have an even number with the best tomes available at levels 14 and 20.

2) There are not 4 types of bards, there are many more. Buffing, healing, melee, and cc spells are 4 (but not all) of the areas which bards can contribute. All bards are excellent at buffing. Buffing is the thing that bards are best at. Beyond buffing, a bard can concentrate on one or more other things, including healing and cc.

3) Quicken??? While I'm not doubting the effectiveness of the feat on other casters, Ive never seen anyone on the bard board say anything about quicken. This is because bards have less mana than other casting classes. And I cant think of what spell other than dancing ball quicken would really help. There are at least 5 other feats I would take first for spellsinger.

The main thing you need to ask yourself, is what is the purpose of this character? Keep in mind that a cc bard will never be as good at cc as a cc specd wizard or even sorc, for that matter. It sounds like you want a support character, whose spellsong will boost the DCs of other casters. Combined with bard buffs and hero's companion, this sounds like a very strong support character. In this case, you will need something to do when you are not the best cc caster in the group.

So here's an idea:
Halfling Bard 14
9 16 15 9 9 17 (INT tome at lvl 1), all levelups into CHA
feats: MT, least dragonmark, heighten, 2 more dragonmarks. Or drop the dragonmarks and take IMT,SF, and GSF.
enhancements: spellsinger, hero's companion, mana, CHA, healing spells, halfling saves
skills: perform, UMD, jump, balance, concentration, haggle

Any caster would want to run with this guy.

Of course you disagree with me icy because I dont believe in 210 hp melees of the future at least without evasion. There will always be items like the litany of the dead book which raises your stat to whatever that you are not taking acount of. Stay with max score in charisma since this is what you want to be is a caster.. Of course there are many types of bard variations which will have combinations, but those are the pure bard focuses as is right now. The OP sounds more and more like he is going to having a heavy buffing emphasis (in order to save the casters mana) interspersed with cc and healing. I have heard the comment bard will never be as good as cc sorc and wiz many times but those classes only have a +2 to dc over the equivalent bard character and quite frankly there are not too many cc specced arcanes anyway (as long as the mobs can be affected by enchantment and this does not factor in fascinating which can affect undead and construct)...

The hero's companion is range near right now but they are probably going to fix that for mod6 (according to Eladrin) so you will be able to hit your guildies then easily. It does not surprise that many of the people on the bard forums don't discuss quicken because there are not too many spellsinger types posting right now (battle bards are posting most of the forum comments), but quicken for disco ball and healing is very effective. Try doing an abbot raid without quicken as a healer - oh wait Icy you have never even tried to fight the abbot... Since your going pure bard and not splashing rogue the dragonmarks are pretty irresistable for a halfling bard, but that would make you more of a healing focus which is not bad because you would have the flexibility to save your sp for more buff/cc if you want and use the dragonmarks instead... Extend is also not a bad feat to have if you plan on displacing and hasting your party members all the time - I dont know how it will look like in mod6 but right now it is still nice..

[bandyman1]

Aye - the more i think about it spellsinger is definately the best route for our guild - the extra umd will help heaps for the healing, the reduction in sp cost will be golden...i dont think we will need to worry too much about crowd control things will be dying in swathes...although the dancing balls would be nice at chokepoints once we gather them all up.... hmmm lets thrash it out - gotta be a halfling?

N


I guess I don't have to be a halfling bro, but I really, really want to :D. And the more I think on it, the more I'm leaning toward the dragonmarks...sure they are 3 feats.....but it would save some sps to muck with.

IDK though, at high level ( since none of you are raging barbs ) it seems to me that heal scrolls will be about the extent of our healing anyways. And I should be UMDing them with NP.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah play around with the other two feats (three when mod6 comes out). Other feats you should look into include empower healing which affects your dragonmarks and other healing spells, extend if you want to buff alot but not haste and displace constantly and skill umd at least until you can do your healing scrolls without fail when you accumulate more raid loot, if you decide to use more healing spells quicken, and Mental tougness for sp. I would not take heighten right now because you will probably use 3-5th level cc spells anyways so it does not do alot for you other then cost spell points for you at least until the next mod when you get 6th level spells. In the next mod spell resistance will probably be more important for cc so keep that in mind down the road.

[Delt]

And the more I think on it, the more I'm leaning toward the dragonmarks...sure they are 3 feats.....but it would save some sps to muck with.


I have never encountered a single build where Dragonmarks are even remotely worth the investment (compared to other options)...especially on a bard where feats are inherently tight. Of course, doing it to RP or just try something different is fine...just saying.

[maddmatt70]

I have never encountered a single build where Dragonmarks are even remotely worth the investment (compared to other options)...especially on a bard where feats are inherently tight. Of course, doing it to RP or just try something different is fine...just saying.

Yeah I am slightly disconcerted when he says heal from scrolls which indicates he does not plan to heal regularly/be a secondary healer. The dragonmark feat choices make more sense for a healing bard...

[bandyman1]

Yeah I am slightly disconcerted when he says heal from scrolls which indicates he does not plan to heal regularly/be a secondary healer. The dragonmark feat choices make more sense for a healing bard...

HUH?

What would lead you to believe I wouldn't be healing regularly? I have the plat to support a large heal scroll habit, and the haggle on a Bard should stretch that even farther.

[maddmatt70]

HUH?

What would lead you to believe I wouldn't be healing regularly? I have the plat to support a large heal scroll habit, and the haggle on a Bard should stretch that even farther.

It is really more about healing speed then affordability when I made that comment. Depending on how difficult and what quests you run scrolls do not provide the "healing speed" neccessary for some quests/difficulty. Dragonmarks do bridge some of that gap, but your regular healing complement is also necessary and if you are a healing focused bard planning to do all the quests as primary healer I would say take the following feats: 3 dragonmark feats, empower healing, and quicken. Of course as the previous poster indicates your cc will take a hit if you take those feats because there are other better cc feats out there and in addition other feats to help some of the other bard ability/sp. You will just have to play it out and see what works for you dragonshards can always remedy feat issues...

[geezee]

"Of course you disagree with me icy because I dont believe in 210 hp melees of the future at least without evasion" Oh, I see, the problem is arguing with someone who doesnt read. No, I disagree with you because most of the time, you dont know what youre talking about. I said why I disagreed with you, and there was no mention of hps or melees.

Empower heal on a bard? The only feat worse than quicken for a bard. Why wouldnt you just take empower? And quicken too, for healing? Quicken + chain healing spells on a bard = Out Of Mana with a quickness. Ive seen lots of spellsinger builds on here, and none has ever listed quicken or empower heal. And I'm not counting your gimpy crackpot builds, Matt. I guess I better hurry up and run the abbot so I will be qualified to tell people how to screw up their characters.

I'm done posting on this board for a while. Tired of all the whiney kids acting like they're worried about if anyone knows how small their pee-pee is.

[maddmatt70]

"Of course you disagree with me icy because I dont believe in 210 hp melees of the future at least without evasion" Oh, I see, the problem is arguing with someone who doesnt read. No, I disagree with you because most of the time, you dont know what youre talking about. I said why I disagreed with you, and there was no mention of hps or melees.

Empower heal on a bard? The only feat worse than quicken for a bard. Why wouldnt you just take empower? And quicken too, for healing? Quicken + chain healing spells on a bard = Out Of Mana with a quickness. Ive seen lots of spellsinger builds on here, and none has ever listed quicken or empower heal. And I'm not counting your gimpy crackpot builds, Matt. I guess I better hurry up and run the abbot so I will be qualified to tell people how to screw up their characters.

I'm done posting on this board for a while. Tired of all the whiney kids acting like they're worried about if anyone knows how small their pee-pee is.

Bah I do know what I am talking about. I don't think you have ever made a healing bard - that is what hangover is. She has 1300 sp and could have 200 more if I respeced her/got some items. Most people don't make healing bards they make cc or battle oriented ones with alot of buffing although some people make primarily buffing bards (permahaste/permadisplacement). I would list quicken as the 5th feat I would take, but I will toggle it on in certain situations (dropping a disco ball around a corner for example or a short end boss fight) or for certain quests the reaver and abbot raid are the primary ones (although the abbot has been seriously gimped so I probably will not use it as much there). Empower healing if you are a healing bard and a cleric for that matter are pretty much a must. No reason to take empower as no bard spells use it other then the shout spells, which are not really effective, and empower healing cost less sp (5 less) per usage. With the halfling bard some of the sp issues are remedied that most bards have so a healing bard can be realized. I am sorry to get personal or the like, but you keep holding yourself out there as an expert, but you had not done/tried the most challenging raid which after you badmouth others well I don't know what to think. I am an adult overly educated if there is such a thing who unfortunately has a really boring job right which is why I am on the forums alot right now so that is my excuse whereas yours for personally insulting me in such a manner is?...

My server has some excellent bards - I don't know where I fit in the group, but I have been playing the game for a long time and bard for a year and half. My bard/bards and fighter are my favorite characters enough said.

The poster probably does not want to make this heavy of a healing specced bard almost no players do which is fine - he probably will want to go a more cc route that is just what people like to do when they make bards who are not very melee oriented. I would say that if the clerics are as offensive spell casting oriented as he says having a healing bard in group would work really well that way the clerics don't have to worry about healing but casting offensive spells and in effect become back up healers.

[Zenako]

wow...1300 sp on a bard...

Back to styles...appears Spell Singer is the speciality of choice. Sounds fine. Works fine (my Bard is a drow spellsinger.)

As for choice of feats, some of that will depend on playstyle. If you are going to be with the same group and the group is a good size almost all the time, you can afford to be a bit more specialized in your choices. The only dragonmark line I have personally even considered taking is the Halfling healing, so that could be interesting, perhaps very interesting.

AS for spell feats, beyond Extend, the other ones are very situational. Quicken, yah sure in a few circumstances, but in a group with other casters and clerics, you are not the only one with healing, so quickened healing will rarely be needed. Empower is also generally a waste, since you only get access to lower level healing spells and the bump in sp cost is not efficienent at those levels, kinda like a half step up from Rangers and Palys. (When it was a percentage, it made a little sense, now, very little.)

Haggle will be worth its weight in skill points.

I would argue that you should pimp up your CHA as much as possible. Almost all of the core BARD skills you will be using will feed off of that. That will help you DC on all those charms and disco balls later on.

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=Zenako;1471078]wow...1300 sp on a bard...


AS for spell feats, beyond Extend, the other ones are very situational. Quicken, yah sure in a few circumstances, but in a group with other casters and clerics, you are not the only one with healing, so quickened healing will rarely be needed. Empower is also generally a waste, since you only get access to lower level healing spells and the bump in sp cost is not efficienent at those levels, kinda like a half step up from Rangers and Palys. (When it was a percentage, it made a little sense, now, very little.)

QUOTE]

probably off topic but my cure critical wounds hits for almost 100 with sup devotion and empower healing and my cure lt wnd mass in the 60s. With the spell pt. change empower healing is less about efficiency and more about healing speed for me. By the way the empower healing feat also is applied to dragonmarks. I agree with your other general points although quicken is nice. If you have a few dragonshards handy you should experiment with it Zenako you might find you really like enough to justify the expense or not.. I like it for big boss fights alot....

[Hasteclicky]

perhaps you could offer a bit more as to what you generally run with. If your guild is comprised of mostly clerics and casters than are the clerics the tanks and if so would you then be mostly healing. Also while the heal scroll is nice for bards it only hits for around 120 and has a terribly slow cast time, so if your hoping to rely on it you may want to consider the scroll mastery line. I have a spellsinger I love to tank with (clerics hate it when I do) and they can be effective when they do, but rely on maxing the songs for their effectiveness. this presents your dilemma, your IC song will do little for your party members if they are all casters. I think perhaps you may want to look at more of a tanking bard to draw aggro and allow the casters the time to cast. Fascinate is going to be your friend when your party members draw aggro.

[~Jules921]

I have never encountered a single build where Dragonmarks are even remotely worth the investment (compared to other options)...especially on a bard where feats are inherently tight. Of course, doing it to RP or just try something different is fine...just saying.

I have to completely disagree with you on this. I have the healing dragonmarks on all 3 of my halflings and they have kept me and my party on our feet plenty of times.

My Human Fighter has used her Lesser Dragonmark during the Dragon raids - the guild depends on it :rolleyes:

My Elven Rogue uses her dragonmark for sneak attacks - works every time.

Geeze, I was under the impression that straight Empower doesn't effect healing spells. You have to use the Empower Healing feat for that and it does include dragonmark healing.

Jules