Bringeth thy hate. Ren caps his permatoon

[Renegade66]

Thought it worth mentioning that I capped my permadeath character Marauder today. I'm sure you're all happy for me. :D

Pic (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2155/2095488551_d1303c49ec.jpg?v=0)

[Impaqt]

What is your guys permadeath ruleset?

[Renegade66]

What is your guys permadeath ruleset?

Legion uses Sublime ruleset except we don't allow the use of the Auction House.

[parvo]

Congratulations.

How many times did your Permadeath character die on the way to cap?

[Renegade66]

Congratulations.

How many times did your Permadeath character die on the way to cap?

Since last time you asked that question, zero.

[parvo]

Since last time you asked that question, zero.

Last time I asked how many times your GROUP died. Now I'm asking how many time YOUR CHARACTER died. This is a legitimate question. It's reasonable that the group lost track but I figured if yours was only one or two, you could remember. I guess it's ok if you don't remember how many times your Permadeath character died, but I've allways thought that was an important in Permadeath play. If my question bothers you, let me know and I'll quit asking.

[Avonwey]

Since last time you asked that question, zero.

I apologize for being late to the party, but just so I know - how many times did your character die *before* the last time he asked the question?

[Renegade66]

I apologize for being late to the party, but just so I know - how many times did your character die *before* the last time he asked the question?

We estimated that deaths in our group was maybe 6 total. Since I held 95% of the aggro, I believe I had 3 deaths along the way. The other three guys had 1 or 2 along the way, so our total may be as high as 8.

[parvo]

We estimated that deaths in our group was maybe 6 total. Since I held 95% of the aggro, I believe I had 3 deaths along the way. The other three guys had 1 or 2 along the way, so our total may be as high as 8.

Not too bad. What is your next challenge? Will you be forming a group where all the members don't have raise ability?

[jjflanigan]

Thought it worth mentioning that I capped my permadeath character Marauder today. I'm sure you're all happy for me. :D

Pic (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2155/2095488551_d1303c49ec.jpg?v=0)

Congratulations, that's an extremely impressive accomplishment.

[Renegade66]

Not too bad. What is your next challenge? Will you be forming a group where all the members don't have raise ability?

That wouldn't be a challenge, that would just be stupid. We have however started a permadeath group fresh on Sarlona. Our group make-up is more typical. For example, I'm playing a straight Barbarian. Again, no AH. We aren't using Vendors for weapons and armor, but do use it for wands, scrolls and pots.

[Cannon]

That is an impressive feat. Not everyone plays by the same permadeath rules but frankly that is impressive!

Cannon

ps I like the rule set that you play under. Seems like a great challenge and a lot of fun

[Mad_Bombardier]

Congrats to Ren and his crew!
Not too bad. What is your next challenge? Will you be forming a group where all the members don't have raise ability?parvo, you really need to stop. You are antagonizing for no real reason. Ren can play by any rules he wants and can achieve any goal he wants.

[parvo]

Congrats to Ren and his crew!parvo, you really need to stop. You are antagonizing for no real reason. Ren can play by any rules he wants and can achieve any goal he wants.

I asked a real question. No antagonization intended. I'm sorry you see it that way. I'm glad to see more people trying Permadeath play. The important thing is that the Legion group had fun. And by all accounts they did.

[twix]

Nice! made a permadeath toon put him in a permadeath guild and no one was ever on so he was deleted...Would love to try it though.Congrats on your capped permadeath toon!!

[jstarr]

Thought it worth mentioning that I capped my permadeath character Marauder today. I'm sure you're all happy for me. :D

Pic (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2155/2095488551_d1303c49ec.jpg?v=0)


YO MAN

the pic is so small i couldnt see your ACHIEVEMENT
Nice Pic of a giants rear end:eek:

Any ways --nice work on that drow caster

JStar
Officer of Wicked Rebellion

[jstarr]

That wouldn't be a challenge, that would just be stupid. We have however started a permadeath group fresh on Sarlona. Our group make-up is more typical. For example, I'm playing a straight Barbarian. Again, no AH. We aren't using Vendors for weapons and armor, but do use it for wands, scrolls and pots.

ya dude my barbarian got his 2nd deathnip - fun stuff

maybe ill roll a squatty short stubby phatty dwarf for once-for our own permadeath

JStar
Officer of Wicked Rebellion

[Renegade66]

I asked a real question. No antagonization intended. I'm sorry you see it that way. I'm glad to see more people trying Permadeath play. The important thing is that the Legion group had fun. And by all accounts they did.

Listen, I answered your question to the best of my ability. Now, can you stop boring us to death with the endless, monotony about how perma isn't perma unless you never take a raise? I'm trying to get people interested in perma and you're not helping. I'm pretty sure everyone gets your point. You've certainly beaten us over the head with it. As an ambassador of permadeath, your approach really sucks. Can't you just go accomplish something on your own and come back and let us know how fun and challenging permadeath can be?

If you don't have the skill to accomplish anything notable with your ruleset, then there's no shame in backing off a bit and playing within your abilities then ramping up the difficulty as your play improves. It's like the solo, normal, hard, elite thing. Our skill level is elite, but we're playing on hard setting, so it's not surprising we did well. Your skill level is normal and you're playing on elite, so it's not surprising you've made little headway in two years.

[Cowdenicus]

Hey Parvo,

Whats up with the animosity man?

Renegade, Grats man.

[parvo]

Listen, I answered your question to the best of my ability. Now, can you stop boring us to death with the endless, monotony about how perma isn't perma unless you never take a raise? I'm trying to get people interested in perma and you're not helping. I'm pretty sure everyone gets your point. You've certainly beaten us over the head with it. As an ambassador of permadeath, your approach really sucks. Can't you just go accomplish something on your own and come back and let us know how fun and challenging permadeath can be?

If you don't have the skill to accomplish anything notable with your ruleset, then there's no shame in backing off a bit and playing within your abilities then ramping up the difficulty as your play improves. It's like the solo, normal, hard, elite thing. Our skill level is elite, but we're playing on hard setting, so it's not surprising we did well. Your skill level is normal and you're playing on elite, so it's not surprising you've made little headway in two years.

Ambassador of Permadeath...hmm...I kind of like that. As such, I should be clear that I'm not so much against the raise as I am against a full party of raisers.

Ren (and to some extent, others in Legion), I feel like I wrangled you a bit and if that's the case, I'm really sorry. I do honestly think that capping your character with only three deaths is quite impressive. As I've mentioned several times, I know it takes a skilled group to do it. But please quit saying that Sublime or members of, have never accomplished anything of note or implying that their skills are not up to it. There are some awesome players in all the PD guilds I've played in and just because they choose to delete when they die or quest in groups without a raiser, doesn't make them stupid or skilless.

[Renegade66]

I should be clear that I'm not so much against the raise as I am against a full party of raisers.

GFU. In my opinion though, Permadeath is more about strategy than your normal zerg runs. Although zerg make-up is somewhat important, part of perma strategy is taking the time to devise complimentary party member make-up with builds designed for survivability. You need a cleric and we chose a battle cleric. Clerics happen to be able to raise. You need a nuker and we chose a Sorc (of course). Sorcs happen to be able to raise. We felt a bard could get us out of a jam with fascinate, plus can buff and heal. Great fit for a permateam and they happen to be able to raise. Our fourth needed to be a batman build with the ability to do traps, unlock doors, plus melee and heal in jams. We chose a fighter/pally/rogue build that HAPPENS to be able to raise. Raising wasn't at the core of our strategy, but a definite benefit. You seem to think that playing smart is cheating or at least takes away from the experience. I could not find your arguement to be any sillier. It kind of reminds me of the player on Survivor that decides they have to be completely honest throughout the show. It's a game of strategy and wits. Use both to succeed or neither and fail.


But please quit saying that Sublime or members of, have never accomplished anything of note or implying that their skills are not up to it.

Once again (getting very old), I have never made a negative comment about Sublime. They were our inspiration and I have the highest regard for them. Sublime has been nothing but complimentary of our accomplishment. You, however, are a different story. You grill me with the same question over and over (tedious and mindnumbing). I do answer, but then ask what you have accomplished. You don't answer except to say that you've been doing it for two years. Well, I've never heard of you or any notable offering to the DDO community. I think you personally should scale back and play at your own level then advance as your skill advances. Mostly though, I think you should just go away.

[Oreg]

Impressive Renegade.

[parvo]

...Once again (getting very old), I have never made a negative comment about Sublime. They were our inspiration and I have the highest regard for them. Sublime has been nothing but complimentary of our accomplishment. You, however, are a different story. You grill me with the same question over and over (tedious and mindnumbing). I do answer, but then ask what you have accomplished. You don't answer except to say that you've been doing it for two years. Well, I've never heard of you or any notable offering to the DDO community. I think you personally should scale back and play at your own level then advance as your skill advances. Mostly though, I think you should just go away.

I have also been publicly complimentary of your accomplishment. Sure, I asked how many times you died. After all it's a Permadeath accomplishment. If I hadn't asked it others would have.

Notable offering to the DDO community...hmmm...good point. What do people consider a notable offering to the DDO community? Maybe I should contribute more...

[Renegade66]

I have also been publicly complimentary of your accomplishment.

I don't consider, "Congratulations, but *smirk* you don't play real permadeath" to be much of a compliment. It's akin to the sorry-but's I get from my wife. "I'm sorry I called you a lazy good for nothing SoB, but you really are one."


Notable offering to the DDO community...hmmm...good point. What do people consider a notable offering to the DDO community?

That's not for me to say, but typically anything that others haven't done or that others find it difficult to believe you actually did it. I always say that you know you've done something exceptional when others call you a liar.

[MondoGrunday]

to solve the issue, ren should call his "quasi" permadeath, since by general understanding of the term "perma" means forever. If you die, you cannot raise. I think claiming to cap a perma death toon when in fact you have been raised or recalled back to life isn't really an accurate statement. If you remove the perma death part , nobody will criticize your accomplishment.

on the other hand I don't think it would be that hard to cap a toon in perma death. particulary in a guild where everyone knows each others playstyles and how the quests are going to be attacked. picking easy quests and doing them on easy difficulty isn't hard to do, but it would take a long time.

grats on only 3 deaths in 14 levels tho :)

[GeneralDiomedes]

Congrats again ..

When I first spied 'Legion Permadeath' in the Who list .. I knew that there would be little ****ing around and you would just get it done.

[arminius]

Congratulations on the extremely impressive achievement. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

_

[GeneralDiomedes]

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?
_

It would be very interesting indeed if Raise Dead adhered strictly to PnP rules, i.e. you must have a body. :D

[Renegade66]

to solve the issue, ren should call his "quasi" permadeath, since by general understanding of the term "perma" means forever. If you die, you cannot raise. I think claiming to cap a perma death toon when in fact you have been raised or recalled back to life isn't really an accurate statement. If you remove the perma death part , nobody will criticize your accomplishment.

on the other hand I don't think it would be that hard to cap a toon in perma death. particulary in a guild where everyone knows each others playstyles and how the quests are going to be attacked. picking easy quests and doing them on easy difficulty isn't hard to do, but it would take a long time.

grats on only 3 deaths in 14 levels tho :)

Well, quasi is fine with me, but then it would have to be Sublime Quasi Permadeath and Mortal Voyage Quasi Permadeath as well. We just followed exising PD rulesets. Also, the other guys in my 4 man group reached 14th level with less deaths than I did.

I tend to agree that capping wasn't so bad since we were in the same group of likeminded and likeskilled players. Getting to lvl 9 can be rocky though. I wouldn't know about picking easy quests on easy difficulty. We didn't do that. We ran some of the toughests quests in the game (e.g. Madstone Crater hard 3man, Crucible elite 3man, PotP elite 3man, etc.). There was much risk, but we leveled quickly (less than a month from creation to 14 including Womp and me rerolling once). I couldn't handle a slow, no risk approach and I definitely don't recommend it. The thrill comes from the adreneline surge you get from; A) getting in over your head and managing to play your way through certain death, and B) pulling killer loot above your level as a reward for that risk.

[Renegade66]

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

You're absolutely right. The only thing you've missed is one person's obsession with not raising at all. Although certainly a great challenge, I haven't seen any permarules that forbid a Cleric from using his raise/resurrection spells. So I guess I'm left with an asterisk next to my name in the record book as the first "quasi" Permadeather to reach level 14 and cap. C'est la vie.

[arminius]

It would be very interesting indeed if Raise Dead adhered strictly to PnP rules, i.e. you must have a body. :D

Oh, I'd definitely be in favor of something like that for Raise Dead. If you die from Cloudkill and you get a Raise Dead, then you'd better have a Neutralize Poison ready to be whipped out. Same with Disease, etc. Resurrect, and the poison or disease's gone. I'd even be in favor of Raise Dead not applying to death from Disintegrate--requiring a full Resurrection instead, thought that would be more controversial in an MMO. When I did PnP, that was the real terror of Beholders....

_

[Talakus]

Ce la vie.
First of all, who gave you permision to use french sentence in your text? I don't recall authorizing this.
The proper writing is: C'est la vie!
Second.
I had hard evidence on video surveillance that you died during the goodblades quest, but manage to give a huge amount of plat to the warforged inside the quest, to raise you, so nobody would know. But the CIA apparently destroyed it with a bunch of other videos so I can't expose you!
Third. Well done! Gratz! Bravo! You and your group are kick A** players!
Four.
Send me back my W/P rapier that you stole on the auction house the other day and give me tome piece 2.

:D

[parvo]

I don't consider, "Congratulations, but *smirk* you don't play real permadeath" to be much of a compliment. It's akin to the sorry-but's I get from my wife. "I'm sorry I called you a lazy good for nothing SoB, but you really are one."



That's not for me to say, but typically anything that others haven't done or that others find it difficult to believe you actually did it. I always say that you know you've done something exceptional when others call you a liar.

Here's the disconnect. You took what I said as an attack on what you accomplished and it wasn't so. I simply didn't want people thinking that existing PD guilds quest with full parties of raisers. The attacking back and forth isn't necessary. This can be a valuable discourse if you let it.

[Oreg]

Here's the disconnect. You took what I said as an attack on what you accomplished and it wasn't so. I simply didn't want people thinking that existing PD guilds quest with full parties of raisers. The attacking back and forth isn't necessary. This can be a valuable discourse if you let it.

Yeah except that just about everyone else took what you said as an attack also. Then again maybe it is all of us and not you. *shrugs*

[Renegade66]

Congrats again ..

When I first spied 'Legion Permadeath' in the Who list .. I knew that there would be little ****ing around and you would just get it done.

Thanks GD. If interested, you're welcome to start up a new permatoon on Sarlona and join our group. We're all low level right now and would love to have your PD experience in our group and also get your take on how we roll.

[parvo]

...There was much risk, but we leveled quickly (less than a month from creation to 14 including Womp and me rerolling once). I couldn't handle a slow, no risk approach and I definitely don't recommend it. The thrill comes from the adreneline surge you get from; A) getting in over your head and managing to play your way through certain death, and B) pulling killer loot above your level as a reward for that risk.

One thing we absolutely agree on is how fun it is to manage your way through a quest where there is significant risk. My favorite questing is when the group plays extremely well because they have to in order to survive. When you finish a quest and the whole group says "AFK bio..." but they're really just catching their breath, that's sweet.

I'll point out again that I'm not so much against the raise. What I don't like is the availability of Raise Scrolls at commodity vendors which give all characters with high enough UMD the ability to raise. The commodity vendors were really poor MMO design. I tried to adress that with the Mortal Voyage rule set. Without them, the game is much more balanced.

[GHOSTRYDER]

First off congrats to the OP, no doubt doing what you did took a tremendous amount of planning, teamwork, and execution. And shouldnt be written off as not being a great accomplishment just because it doesnt follow what somebody else considers "legit".

I think Parvos problem is that he just feels a little shown up in his area of expertise, or maybe doesnt actually feel shown up personally, but feels it's making him look that way, or like it's making people believe that what HE does is easier than it really is, because he may take it as you guys saying "Im doing the exact same thing as you just better", while it certainly is just good planning and taking steps to heighten your chances of survival, and taking advantage of the resources the game offers in character customization and availability of life saving commodities, no it's not EXACTLY the same as having only one character that can raise, thus meaning if that one character dies it's over for him/her, and quite possibly over for the rest of the group at that point, and/or allowing ONLY the use of scrolls, potions, etc found in chests. I think that's all he's trying to point out, is that youre not doing the exact same thing that he and others are. Which i believe has already been pointed out Parvo, so there's really no need to keep insisting so.

Point is, noone here said that legion is doing exactly what Mortal Voyage does or any other guild, and doing it better, they simply relayed what THEY had accomplished, how they did it, and the rules THEY followed, which is still very much considered permadeath, perhaps to spark interest among other players who are tired of the daily grind of loot runs and constant raiding, and inspire them to give this risky and rewarding play style a try.

Again i applaud the OP and his group for the accomplishment, as well as anyone else, including Mortal Voyage, Sublime, or any one else for setting challenging goals and achieving them. And for spreading the word about the fun you had doing so, so maybe others on the brink of moving on will find new life with something that's "getting old" to them.

[Renegade66]

I think Parvos problem is that he just feels a little shown up in his area of expertise, or maybe doesnt actually feel shown up personally, but feels it's making him look that way, or like it's making people believe that what HE does is easier than it really is, because he may take it as you guys saying "Im doing the exact same thing as you just better", while it certainly is just good planning and taking steps to heighten your chances of survival, and taking advantage of the resources the game offers in character customization and availability of life saving commodities, no it's not EXACTLY the same as having only one character that can raise, thus meaning if that one character dies it's over for him/her, and quite possibly over for the rest of the group at that point, and/or allowing ONLY the use of scrolls, potions, etc found in chests.

I've submitted your post to the Guiness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language. :eek:

Thanks for the grats.

[arminius]

I've submitted your post to the Guiness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language. :eek:


Wow, for a founder, you really don't read the forums much, huh?

;)

[GHOSTRYDER]

I've submitted your post to the Guinness Book of World Records as having the single, longest run-on sentence in the history of the English language. :eek:

Thanks for the grats.

cool, hope i get it

oh, and fixed your spelling error Mr. english teacher.

[GeneralDiomedes]

mmm Guinness

[Clay]

Congrats Renegade...

Here, to help us all understand are Mortal Voyage's rules:

The Rules of Mortal Voyage
Members agree to play by the letter and spirit of the following rule set. The rule set is intended to support the original mission of the guild. If game mechanics or common strategy change we will consider changes to the rules.
1. Your character must be level one to join the guild.
2. No spoilers. Don’t talk about what is coming up in a quest.
3. If your character dies, delete it or leave the guild. Lag deaths count. City deaths count. We do not use raise shrines. Nor do we recall/raise out to taverns. You can only be raised if one of your living group-mates has the ability. You cannot invite others into the group to assist with raises. The same rule covers incapacitated characters.
Exception; Known bugs do not count (listed below).
Exception; PvP deaths do not count.
4. Do not use repeatable innate raise abilities below level nine. Consumable raise abilities are acceptable at any level.
5. If your character dies, surviving party members may loot one item from your corpse. The surviving members must recover your Soul Gem to loot your corpse. If they can not get the Soul Gem, they can not loot the corpse.
Exception; you may designate one item as an heirloom. The one heirloom item can be passed to a new, level one character.
6. If your character dies, any equipment not looted by survivors (and the one heirloom item) is either deleted, sold for guild funds or transferred out of the guild. Bank items and money included.
7. Do not use the auction house to buy or sell.
8. Do not purchase commodity magic items from vendors (wands, potions, scrolls, etc). Pawnbroker purchase is OK. Non-magic purchase is OK. Favor-related vendors are OK.
Note: Commodity items are items that are always available at vendors. Purchase of magical commodities is not allowed. Non-magical commodities are allowed. Inscription and spell components are non-magic, and therefore permissible. Broker purchase is allowed. Brokers can be identified by their NPC title. NPC titles can be viewed by turning on the option in the User Interface. You can sell items to any Non-player vendor or broker.
9. Do not exit and re-enter a quest. You may not re-enter to complete objectives or loot until the instance re-sets.
Exception; you may re-enter a quest to save a fellow group-mate who needs help.
10. No PUGing. Do not group with others outside the guild.
11. Do not accept gifts of any sort from characters outside the guild.
12. No Twinking. Do not pass any item, gear or money to any other character. This includes your own characters within the guild.
Exception; you can trade collectibles and consumable items like potions, wands, scrolls and ammo within the guild. Note: If Turbine gives us a workable collectible solution, we will drop the collectible exception.
Exception; Group-mates can share items that are found in chests within an adventure. End rewards cannot be traded.
13. No “tag-alongs”. You may not “tag-along” in a quest just for item drops. If you’re getting no XP from power leveling, you are tagging along. Don’t do it.
14. Run quests at the highest level of difficulty available to the group. You are not required to reset quest chains if you start over with members who have not started.And Sublime's:

GUILD CHARTER:

You die, you delete. We do not use Resurrection Shrines.

A cleric or other character which is able to raise a dead person in the party can raise you, otherwise your gone. You can not bring somebody into the party to raise you, they must have already been there when you died. You may not be raised before reaching level 4.

*PvP deaths DO NOT count
*Deaths to known bugs DO NOT count (listed below)
*Lag deaths DO count
*Death in the city DOES count

When you die you can pass your gear to the survivors in the group. You may pass down one item to your next character. The bank will be considered family property (at level 4 and above) and it is left to the player to decide what to do with the those items on death. You also have the option of mailing items to the guild bank 'Hargus' to be used in the next guild event.

For the first 3 levels you may only accept gifts from teammates, and may not buy from Brokers or the Auction House. Normal vendors are ok. We do not accept gifts from or trade with characters outside of the guild.

We do not play in PUGs (Pick-up groups) with our permadeath characters, only with other guild members.

Don't rush ahead of the group. We stick together and work as a team to try and get everybody through the quest alive. Don't recall from a quest to recover and re-enter at full strength.
From what I can see, with my poor English reading ability, both guilds allow for raising. Parvo's own rules allow for raising by either consumable or spell ability! Now I don't know, but his constant harping about raising seems less about real sublime and more like... feelings of being left out? I dunno.

Now his rules are definately stricter about helping out your teamates... i.e. rule 12. Let me see... I, paladin superb, am running along in a quest without our inestimable rogue. I loot some gloves of open lock +uber number... Obviously I can't use em... so, according to MV i would of course leave them there, in the chest. How does this represent PnP reality? If I am questing, but Bob couldn't make it this day because of a family obligation... would I not take the gloves and give them to him next time I see him? I fail to understand this rule. What happened to helping each other?

[totmacher]

Grats Legion on both the cappage and the other accomplishments (titan, etc).

I've played using both Mortal Voyage and Sublime rules. I "converted" my character on the Argonessen server from MV -> Weird Funky Sublime Subset with Custom Attachment and Dohickeys (Patent Pending).

For anyone interested in Permadeath reading this thread, most of the arguments and counter-argument is based around what you consider Permadeath to be. Everyone has their own view of what it should be and thus anything derived from that, like "accomplishments" is totally in the eye of the beholder. What is an accomplishment for one guild is not for another.

I, personally found MV's rules to be a bit too hardcore and as someone who has played with the guild leader up to level 4, it just wasn't my cup of tea (no offense). I loved that what you looted is what you got, I loved that you couldn't buy off vendors, I loved the hardcore aspect of it. I found the not talking about stuff coming up to be particularly frustrating because when I was with random people, I wouldn't talk at all in the group. And what's the point of playing D&D if you are sitting there silently grinding away, I wasn't able to form any relationships with the people I was playing with for fear of loosing my tongue. So I left and rolled with my usual guild who all rolled permies because we've done these quests a trillion times so we know what's going on. I also found the rules set too hardcore for the people I wanted to play with (LK on Argo).

Conversely though Sublime's rules are a LOT looser when it comes to random Permadeath options and thus are more easily "twinkable". Auctions, buying stuff off vendors, etc etc. Buying stuff off vendors seems to be a 3rd edition ism which doesn't really appeal to the 1st-2nd edition crowd. "Magic" in 2E (this is just a personal thing) wasn't so easily bartered with that there were price values for every item. And yes, you can grind money forever reselling stuff to the Auction House because of lazy players but that's obviously not in the spirit of Permadeath. Also, I really found using vendors to be the best source of twinking. It makes those random drops of cure wands not really as important if you're playing with Sublime's rules as opposed to MV.

So overall, I do enjoy the MV rules set to a point (and find it to be more "permadeathy") but I find the Sublime rules set to be a bit more palatable. It's just more condusive to an atmosphere of partying with people who are not supremely hardcore players.

Also for anyone still reading this, TRY PERMADEATH. YOU'LL ENJOY IT. :) It's a lot of fun because not of only the "you die, you lose" aspect but also because item drops are rare and uber and you feel like a noob again. Party especially with guildies/friends because random partying is boring and almost the same as PUGing but for much higher stakes. If you can get 3 of your friends into it, it really is a lot of fun to take a night away from doing titan, reaver, dragon, etc etc. and roll Permadeath and roll on that epic +2 longsword that just dropped in STK on Normal. :)

[MysticRhythms]

First off, congratulations. I wish I had the time to be able to get my permadeath characters through the game.

I have a few questions:

1) What quests did you skip?
2) How much favor did you obtain?
3) Did you go back and run any quests that were several levels below your characters?

I ask because I have some additional PD rules I wanted to enforce on my PD charcter above and beyond the Sublime rule:

1) Aside of raids (where it might be impossible to get 12 people of high enough level), try to avoid skipping level-appropriate quests.
2) Acquire as much favor as possible.
3) Set up a maximum limit to where no character is mroe than +x levels above the intended quest level.

I'm not sure what X should be ... 1 ... 2 ...

That also means a liklihood of holding off on leveling a character if there are some level-appropriate quests you haven't attempted.

I say this because it is exceptionally challenging to do Elite-level quests even in the Harbor where your characters aren't several levels above the quest level.

P.S. Another rule would be:
4) Do all optionals possible (skipping only the ones where you need a rogue to open a lock and don't have a rogue with you, for example).

[Renegade66]

First off, congratulations. I wish I had the time to be able to get my permadeath characters through the game.

I have a few questions:

1) What quests did you skip?
2) How much favor did you obtain?
3) Did you go back and run any quests that were several levels below your characters?

I ask because I have some additional PD rules I wanted to enforce on my PD charcter above and beyond the Sublime rule:

1) Aside of raids (where it might be impossible to get 12 people of high enough level), try to avoid skipping level-appropriate quests.
2) Acquire as much favor as possible.
3) Set up a maximum limit to where no character is mroe than +x levels above the intended quest level.

I'm not sure what X should be ... 1 ... 2 ...

That also means a liklihood of holding off on leveling a character if there are some level-appropriate quests you haven't attempted.

I say this because it is exceptionally challenging to do Elite-level quests even in the Harbor where your characters aren't several levels above the quest level.

P.S. Another rule would be:
4) Do all optionals possible (skipping only the ones where you need a rogue to open a lock and don't have a rogue with you, for example).

1) Skipped quests that had little reward (XP) for the risk.
2) A bit over 1000 favor
3) Rarely ran quests below our level unless it was to finish up favor

As far as your new rules, I wouldn't rope yourself into something that limits your fun. For example, I would shoot myself if we were forced to get all the breakables to ransack before finishing a quest.

[neoanderthal]

Thought it worth mentioning that I capped my permadeath character Marauder today. I'm sure you're all happy for me. :D

Pic (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2155/2095488551_d1303c49ec.jpg?v=0)

That's awesome :) congratulations!

[MysticRhythms]

1) Skipped quests that had little reward (XP) for the risk.

Do you have a list? Obviously just scanning your completed quest log would show which ones you skipped. And why skip something "for the risk" in a permadeath setting? Isn't "for the risk" kind of the whole point?


3) Rarely ran quests below our level unless it was to finish up favor
What I was getting at was how often? How many? Which pieces of favor?


As far as your new rules, I wouldn't rope yourself into something that limits your fun.
Eliminating risk would limit my fun. I'd feel a bit dirty if I skipped quests like The Pit or other quests deemed "annoying" by the populace. I'd much rather open my quest log and see a page full of "Normal/Hard/Elite" rather than a lot of "Not completed." To me, that's a little more impressive than achieving level 14. Though beating the titan is impressive.


For example, I would shoot myself if we were forced to get all the breakables to ransack before finishing a quest.
I prefer leaving no stones unturned. I'm not into turboing dungeons. Again, maybe that's why some PD players can't go from 1-14 in two months.

[Renegade66]

Do you have a list? Obviously just scanning your completed quest log would show which ones you skipped. And why skip something "for the risk" in a permadeath setting? Isn't "for the risk" kind of the whole point?


What I was getting at was how often? How many? Which pieces of favor?


Eliminating risk would limit my fun. I'd feel a bit dirty if I skipped quests like The Pit or other quests deemed "annoying" by the populace. I'd much rather open my quest log and see a page full of "Normal/Hard/Elite" rather than a lot of "Not completed." To me, that's a little more impressive than achieving level 14. Though beating the titan is impressive.


I prefer leaving no stones unturned. I'm not into turboing dungeons. Again, maybe that's why some PD players can't go from 1-14 in two months.

1 month, not 2. Eliminating risk was not my point, in fact, you need that risk and we challenged ourselves the entire way with risky endeavors. I should have said, we skipped quests that took a long time for little XP. A list would be difficult, since most quests we never touched. That doesn't mean we ground quests to death either. We ran quests on normal, hard, elite then moved onto the next one. We did run the pit. I don't consider forcing ransack on every quest to be a good idea. It would just be boring. Personal preference though. Maybe there are others out there wanting your slow and painful approach :D

[Rayzorlew]

Badonkadonk=My perma toon.
1st=received her coin lord 150 favor.
Tangle=N.H.E. (house p favor)
Necro=N.H.E.
Redwillow=N.H.E.
Gwylans=N.H.E.
Caged Trolls=N.H.E.
Stormcleave=N.H.E.
Greymoon=N.H.
Co6=N.H.
The pit=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Thernal=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Von1-4=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but needed another wisdom char. and we don't allow pugging)
B.A.M.=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Went and got helms from Orchard.
All of Gianthold (except preraid and raid)=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but we still didn't have enough relics, and we don't use AH.)
Received 150 Argo favor.
Finally got her portable hole, for coinlord, lol.
H.I.P.S=N
Ghola=N
Hit level 14, in here somewhere.
Shriek/mines=N
Restless Isles=N
Titan=N

I know I'm missing the little in between quests, but by looking at this list it's hard to say we ducked anything.
She died 2x's in 14 levels, Axcent/Bard res'd me both times.



I prefer leaving no stones unturned. I'm not into turboing dungeons. Again, maybe that's why some PD players can't go from 1-14 in two months.

What I don't like is the availability of Raise Scrolls at commodity vendors which give all characters with high enough UMD the ability to raise. The commodity vendors were really poor MMO design. I tried to adress that with the Mortal Voyage rule set. Without them, the game is much more balanced.

Statements like these are so funny..........
Yeah well I like playing DDO with my monitor turned off and just because I'm never gonna get anywhere doesnt matter MY WAY's BETTER!

All you need to do is accomplish something your way guys, hell anything, and we'll congrat ya.
LOL :D




**edited= I added Co6 and Greymoon**

[Renegade66]

Statements like these are so funny..........
Yeah well I like playing DDO with my monitor turned off and just because I'm never gonna get anywhere doesnt matter MY WAY's BETTER!

ROFL, what, not everyone plays with their monitor off? What kind of challenge is that? I would never lower myself to playing in a group with all monitoons. Congratulations on your accomplishment, but even though I've never reached the end of the spawn dock, "real" DDO is played with monitors turned off, leg chains on and both hands tied behind your back.

[neoanderthal]

1 month, not 2. Eliminating risk was not my point, in fact, you need that risk and we challenged ourselves the entire way with risky endeavors. I should have said, we skipped quests that took a long time for little XP. A list would be difficult, since most quests we never touched. That doesn't mean we ground quests to death either. We ran quests on normal, hard, elite then moved onto the next one. We did run the pit. I don't consider forcing ransack on every quest to be a good idea. It would just be boring. Personal preference though. Maybe there are others out there wanting your slow and painful approach :D

holy .... you went from 1 to 14 in 1 month? I'm flabbergasted - what do you do all day? Between work, girlfriend, movies, books, nights out, etc., I've barely managed to scratch level 5 with my primary. I already feel like I spend too much time playing DDO - probably upwards of 10 hours a week. I do have a ton of alts (full slots on my main server, and working on it on another), but given the rate at which the level progression seems to slow, I can't imagine playing enough to do 70 ranks in one month. That just blows my mind.

[MysticRhythms]

1 month, not 2.
Pardon me for my error.


Eliminating risk was not my point
That's exactly what you said, however. You eliminated risk unless it suited your reward (in this case, experience points). So you actually faced much less content and in particular, ignored the most difficult content by your comments below.


in fact, you need that risk and we challenged ourselves the entire way with risky endeavors.
How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?


I should have said, we skipped quests that took a long time for little XP. A list would be difficult, since most quests we never touched. That doesn't mean we ground quests to death either.
No but it DOES mean you skipped a lot of content that you found might slow you down. Just above you corrected me on the timeframe it took for you to achieve your goal. Well, if you ran the easiest quests that gave the most experience points (for example, something like Recovering the Lost Tome for lowbies), then achieving level 14 isn't as impressive.


We ran quests on normal, hard, elite then moved onto the next one. We did run the pit.
SO which ones did you skip? You say the list is long, but you can easily do a screen shot or two of your favor achievements, right? I'm just curious to see which quests you considered to be "not worth your time."


I don't consider forcing ransack on every quest to be a good idea. It would just be boring.
Or rather time consuming which is contrary to your goal - most reward with least effort.


Maybe there are others out there wanting your slow and painful approach :D
Interesting jibe there. You seek to be aggrandized for accomplishing a goal quickly but then point out that you kind of engineered your approach to avoid the most time consuming (and probably difficult) quests in the game. While the achievement from 1-14 is impressive for a PD character, if the majority of the tiem spent from levels 1-4 was in Waterworks, STK, Tangleroot, Greymoon, Co6 and such, then I submit it's not difficult to get someone close enough to level 9 without much effort. Then once level 9 is achieved, the availability of Raise Dead makes the last five levels that much simpler, again, if risky quests are averted.

But if "level 14" was your main accomplishment, then congratulations on achieving your goal in the least painful way possible.

[MysticRhythms]

ROFL, what, not everyone plays with their monitor off? What kind of challenge is that? I would never lower myself to playing in a group with all monitoons. Congratulations on your accomplishment, but even though I've never reached the end of the spawn dock, "real" DDO is played with monitors turned off, leg chains on and both hands tied behind your back.

So when someone suggests that you could play ithe game in a way that challenges you more, this is your reaction?

Interesting.

[Renegade66]

holy .... you went from 1 to 14 in 1 month? I'm flabbergasted - what do you do all day? Between work, girlfriend, movies, books, nights out, etc., I've barely managed to scratch level 5 with my primary. I already feel like I spend too much time playing DDO - probably upwards of 10 hours a week. I do have a ton of alts (full slots on my main server, and working on it on another), but given the rate at which the level progression seems to slow, I can't imagine playing enough to do 70 ranks in one month. That just blows my mind.

Well, believe it or not I have a real life. Full time job, wife, kids, schnauzer, etc. The four of us played a couple nights a week for 2-3 hours and a bit more on weekends. The key to leveling quickly, even in permadeath, is knowing which quests give you the most XP for the amount of time required. Also, we had a core group of four very experienced players that know every quest like the back of their hand. All game time was devoted to gaining XP. Even when we were farming tapestries for the hvy fort/toughness helm we were getting a ton of Explorer/Slayer XP in the Orchard.

Good XP quests to run on normal, hard and elite (careful on permatoons):
Goodblade quests
Low Road
Durk's got a secret (muckbane and XP)
Information is key
Kobold's New Ringleader
Waterworks
Shan-to-Kor
Tangleroot
Delera's & Necro
Gwylan's
Stormcleave
Co6
The Pit
Threnal West/East/South
BAM
VoNs
Gianthold
Titan
Reaver

[Renegade66]

Pardon me for my error.


That's exactly what you said, however. You eliminated risk unless it suited your reward (in this case, experience points). So you actually faced much less content and in particular, ignored the most difficult content by your comments below.


How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?


No but it DOES mean you skipped a lot of content that you found might slow you down. Just above you corrected me on the timeframe it took for you to achieve your goal. Well, if you ran the easiest quests that gave the most experience points (for example, something like Recovering the Lost Tome for lowbies), then achieving level 14 isn't as impressive.



Here's where you've gone awry. You relate us skipping quests that slow us down to running the easiest quests. This is not the case at all. We ran quests with the highest XP that take the shortest amount of time. We ran quests above our level on normal, hard and elite, which was much more challenging but much quicker. We ran Crucible elite and Madstone Crater with 3 people. You should do the same (if you can). How is that ignoring the difficult content. We did not need to run every quest to hit lvl 14. We ran high XP quests on normal, hard and elite and voila, we were 14. We did not grind easy quests. We did not grind at all. You say it's not a challenge because we didn't run every quest. Where is that in the PD rulebook? You guys seem to have an endless list of unwritten rules that we should have known about and followed in order to really succeed.



SO which ones did you skip? You say the list is long, but you can easily do a screen shot or two of your favor achievements, right? I'm just curious to see which quests you considered to be "not worth your time."

Or rather time consuming which is contrary to your goal - most reward with least effort.

Rayzorlew just posted the general list of what we ran. What more do you want to see? I'm at work and can't give you a screenie.





Interesting jibe there. You seek to be aggrandized for accomplishing a goal quickly but then point out that you kind of engineered your approach to avoid the most time consuming (and probably difficult) quests in the game. While the achievement from 1-14 is impressive for a PD character, if the majority of the tiem spent from levels 1-4 was in Waterworks, STK, Tangleroot, Greymoon, Co6 and such, then I submit it's not difficult to get someone close enough to level 9 without much effort. Then once level 9 is achieved, the availability of Raise Dead makes the last five levels that much simpler, again, if risky quests are averted.

But if "level 14" was your main accomplishment, then congratulations on achieving your goal in the least painful way possible.

Yes we did "engineer" our approach. It's ludicrous to consider this a bad thing.

Yes we avoided time consuming quests with low XP. We did not avoid difficult quests.

How do you NOT spend a majority of your lvl 1-4 time in those quests. You typically don't even get to Greymoon until lvl 5. Are we playing the same game?

I love how you submit that our approach was easy. Can you do it? Go show me then maybe someone will take that comment seriously.

[rpasell]

Why do people seem to want to hijack a thread like this with snide "Congrats on doing it *snicker* (the cheesy way)"? Isn't that against the rules of this new forum anyway?

Very nice accomplishment. Congratulations.

[MysticRhythms]

You relate us skipping quests that slow us down to running the easiest quests. This is not the case at all. We ran quests with the highest XP that take the shortest amount of time.

It would be more telling to display the ones you actually skipped and explain why they were skipped. Personally, I don't care.


You should do the same (if you can).
Was that statement necessary?


How is that ignoring the difficult content.
Skipping quests = ignoring content.


We did not need to run every quest to hit lvl 14.
That's exactly my point, actually. If "achieving level 14" is the goal, I merely submit that it's an easier goal than "attaining X favor" for example.


We ran high XP quests on normal, hard and elite and voila, we were 14.
Congratulations.


You say it's not a challenge because we didn't run every quest.
I didn't say it's not a challenge. I said it's less of a challenge than running all of the content.


Where is that in the PD rulebook?
1) I don't write any rulebooks
2) I never said it had to be done

You are posting your accomplishment in an acknowledgement thread.

I can post "My character made it to level 2."

This is a discussion forum. I certainly think it's on topic to describe just how much of an accomplishment achieving *insert your goal here* actually is. Otherwise, why does it need to be in a discussion forum? Would you rather just see a dozen posts saying "Congratulations" or ... "That's really not a big deal?" Or would you rather people actually discussed your accomplishments?


You guys seem to have an endless list of unwritten rules that we should have known about and followed in order to really succeed.
I'm not a member of The Sublime so there's no need to lump me into "you guys." I'm just "random guy who plays DDO." In my ever-so-minor-and-unimportant-opinion, it's not AS impressive to PD your way to 14 as it is to PD to, say 1750 favor. Would you say it's easier to just attain the favor?


Rayzorlew just posted the general list of what we ran. What more do you want to see?
Nothing, actually.


Yes we did "engineer" our approach. It's ludicrous to consider this a bad thing.
It's not a bad thing. I never said it was a bad thing. What I said was "to challenge yourself MORE you could ______,"


Yes we avoided time consuming quests with low XP. We did not avoid difficult quests.
If Rayzor's list is the majority of your accomplishments, then I'll simply disagree with you here. There are many difficult quests not listed above.


How do you NOT spend a majority of your lvl 1-4 time in those quests. You typically don't even get to Greymoon until lvl 5. Are we playing the same game?
Actually, running nothing but Harbor and Marketplace content, not even counting Tangleroot OR Shan Ta Kor can get someone from level 1-6. It's not easy, hoewever.


I love how you submit that our approach was easy. Can you do it?
It's easier by your assertion. You specifically stated you maximized your XP output per hour of play. You specifically avoided what you called "risky" quests to do so. Please note that you used the word 'risky' - I didn't. And again with the "can you do it?" Is that your defense to anyone saying something other than "congratulations?"


Go show me then maybe someone will take that comment seriously.
ok

[LOUDRampart]

Congratulations.

How many times did your Permadeath character die on the way to cap?

First, grats on the achievement.

Second, Permadeath is only permadeath up to level 9 (or 6 if you allow the enhancement). After this, it is just a more difficult ruleset you follow.

And if you won't allow the cleric to raise dead at 9, then it wouldn't be dnd anymore...

[neoanderthal]

Well, believe it or not I have a real life. Full time job, wife, kids, schnauzer, etc. The four of us played a couple nights a week for 2-3 hours and a bit more on weekends. The key to leveling quickly, even in permadeath, is knowing which quests give you the most XP for the amount of time required. Also, we had a core group of four very experienced players that know every quest like the back of their hand. All game time was devoted to gaining XP. Even when we were farming tapestries for the hvy fort/toughness helm we were getting a ton of Explorer/Slayer XP in the Orchard.

Good XP quests to run on normal, hard and elite (careful on permatoons):
Goodblade quests
Low Road
Durk's got a secret (muckbane and XP)
Information is key
Kobold's New Ringleader
Waterworks
Shan-to-Kor
Tangleroot
Delera's & Necro
Gwylan's
Stormcleave
Co6
The Pit
Threnal West/East/South
BAM
VoNs
Gianthold
Titan
Reaver

My comment came off sounding more snide than I intended, for which I apologize. I've done the majority of my playing solo - I didn't really have a consistent group to play with until last week when the g/f finally got her own account. I thought that our new characters were gaining levels faster than my primary, but I hadn't actually confirmed that grouping did it. Given the quests that I've done, for the most part, it would probably take me (forever-1) days to get to level 14, since I generally only run them once or twice, and I'm pretty random in what I've done. That's an awesome list, though - thanks! I'll keep it handy. Again, congrats - I still think you've got an achievement there, regardless :)

[Tulsa_Doom]

On a side note, I think I scrolled up and read something MysticRhythms said about skipping content or ignoring content. I guess thats the rub isnt it. The content is kind of old. I could die happy without ever having to do TR or GM/CO6 ever again. And if you know what the acronyms stand for then you must have some semblance of sympathy for the sentiment.

Its odd how these forums have become some breeding ground for disenchanted players nasty sentiments. And its all in the guise of discussion, freedom of speech, and witty banter. Noone can ever say hey I accomplished such and such, and Im excited enough to post it because I like the game without being slammed ruthlessly. I mean so many ppl disenfranchised with this game it seems, I mean seriously the forums are full of some pretty inflammatory stuff, and yet you all keep playing. I guess do what makes you happy. I cant imagine what new gamers (they are out there :)) think about some of these posts.

As for Ren, good for you man, found a way to make the content worthwhile for yourself. Its cool if you used Mortal Voyage, Sublime or Geneva Convention rules. Maybe bringing it a bit upon yourself by making the thread name Bringeth thy hate but hey what the hell. :). Sorry got sidetracked there on earlier thought. I guess if I had to permadeath a new character, I would not go through Bringing the Light, Irestone Inlet, or any number of other quests not because I wanted to ignore content or bypass it but because in addition to it not being much use to me xpwise it had ceased to be fun.

Grats again Ren.

[MysticRhythms]

Its odd how these forums have become some breeding ground for disenchanted players nasty sentiments.

If you're referring to me, I'm not disenchanted. If you're referring ot my posts, I don't see how they were nasty. Am I supposed to agree with everything posted? SHould I jsut type "congratulations" and be done?


Noone can ever say hey I accomplished such and such, and Im excited enough to post it because I like the game without being slammed ruthlessly.
My posts were far removed from "ruthless slamming." If you disagree, I'd like to see where and why.


Maybe bringing it a bit upon yourself by making the thread name Bringeth thy hate
That's actually quite an interesting point. You might say the OP set the tone of the thread with his title.


I would not go through Bringing the Light, Irestone Inlet, or any number of other quests not because I wanted to ignore content or bypass it but because in addition to it not being much use to me xpwise it had ceased to be fun.

So if it's not the "lack of XP" that makes such quests less fun, what is it that makes them less fun than the ones you mentioned via acronym?

[parvo]

Badonkadonk=......
Yeah well I like playing DDO with my monitor turned off and just because I'm never gonna get anywhere doesnt matter MY WAY's BETTER!

All you need to do is accomplish something your way guys, hell anything, and we'll congrat ya.
LOL :D

I'll hold you to it :)

[Tulsa_Doom]

I dont know if you can just type congratulations and be done with it. :P. A bit of a penchant for the verbose. Total joke. Not meant to provoke or inflame. Have a good one. Best way to end this one is to walk away.

Grats Ren!

See that was easy.

Grats Ren!

Did it again!

Ok sorry. Really have a good one and cya in game.

[Clay]

Eliminating risk would limit my fun. I'd feel a bit dirty if I skipped quests like The Pit or other quests deemed "annoying" by the populace. I'd much rather open my quest log and see a page full of "Normal/Hard/Elite" rather than a lot of "Not completed." To me, that's a little more impressive than achieving level 14. Though beating the titan is impressive.
That's exactly what you said, however. You eliminated risk unless it suited your reward (in this case, experience points). So you actually faced much less content and in particular, ignored the most difficult content by your comments below.
Where does not running all content equate with limiting risk? 3 man madstone/crucible elite is low risk? Actually, most of us in Legion like quests like the Pit--its actually one of my favorites. I really fail to see how you think, by anything that was typed in this thread, where they ignored the most difficult content? Especially considering they did EVERYTHING with a maximum of 4 people?


How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?Right... this is such a common occurrence that posting that someone capped a permadeath character, is akin to posting that he successfully complete Elphonia's challenge. Skipping quests does not equal ignoring difficult content.


Or rather time consuming which is contrary to your goal - most reward with least effort.Uh huh. 4 people dedicating 3-4 hrs a couple nights a week, playing hard and fast = little effort. God I hope you don't work on a hourly rate. Let's imagine that they are contract workers... they get the money when they finish the work. The choice is: take it easy, take a rest every couple hours... day off here and there; or they go in, geterdone, get the money. Their goal was FIRST to hit lvl 14. That was the goal... they accomplished it. The goal was not to hit lvl 14 at the same time as reaching 1750 favor. I don't think it is even possible.


avoid the most time consuming (and probably difficult) quests in the game.Sorry looking at Rayzors quest log (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1469245&postcount=49) is not even close to avoiding difficult quests. Have you actually 3-manned Madstone/Crucible elite under level? Have you done any of the level 10 or higher quests, in permadeath, on elite, under level and under(person)ned? If you have, I retract this comment and take my hat off.

We started up on Sarlona recently. In order to get drow unlocked focused all my playing to getting favor at the same time as getting xp... If at all possible I tried to get in parties doing elite first. It took me 2 days of playing to hit lvl 6 and 400 favor, reaching both at the same time. This was with a 28pt build completely untwinked. I did not touch house K, D, or J quests (the ones actually in those houses) reaching that xp/favor limit. With the amount of XP in the game, how would it be possible to reach lvl 14 with more than 1000-1100 favor unless you are sandbagging levels. Especially considering there are no elite openers... they can't, like I did, join a pug running the Elite level bypassing the xp from normal and hard. I have a capped cleric with under 800 favor. Was never a main toon--used only to unlock drow on my second account. Then just brought out to help guildies/friends. Actually might be closer to 900 now after running Orchard stuff.

I also enjoy discourse about different approaches to the game. But all your statements, without having actually attempted to determine how "easy" what they did was by doing it yourself, looks less like discourse and more like finger pointing. I also fail to see what if was in Renegade's posts where he slighted you causing you to come out guns blazing... you asked questions, he answered them... and... ?

[Rayzorlew]

Badonkadonk=My perma toon.
1st=received her coin lord 150 favor.
Tangle=N.H.E. (house p favor)
Delera's/Necro=N.H.E.
Redwillow=N.H.E.
Gwylans=N.H.E.
Caged Trolls=N.H.E.
Stormcleave=N.H.E.
Greymoon=N.H.
Co6=N.H.
The pit=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Thernal=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Von1-4=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but needed another wisdom char. and we don't allow pugging)
B.A.M.=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Went and got helms from Orchard.
All of Gianthold (except preraid and raid)=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but we still didn't have enough relics, and we don't use AH.)
Received 150 Argo favor.
Finally got her portable hole, for coinlord, lol.
H.I.P.S=N
Ghola=N
Hit level 14, in here somewhere.
Shriek/mines=N
Restless Isles=N
Titan=N





How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?


What did we skip, piddly little crappy quest's maybe.
My quest completions are above Mystic, you tell me.
Maybe Necropolis tomb quests?
I would rather stab myself in the eye with a broken Doritto, than run those.
We never did quests that were not in our level range, but to accomplish what you keep arguing about, we would of had too.
I would think that would be kind of cheating, considering we would of reached the Vons at level 14 by doing everything else first.
Then you'd probably complain about that.

By the way, try and refrain from picking apart my post line by line....thats one troll tactic your over using.
Go hook up with Parvo and do somethig.
Get your own accomplishment thread.
Here I'll even title it for you.....

"HIT 14 WITHOUT DOING A QUEST OVER LEVEL 8"
Have fun with Stormcleave at level 13....real challenging. ;)

[MysticRhythms]

Where does not running all content equate with limiting risk?
Skipping encounters that are tough simply because it's easier to get XP elsewhere = limiting risk, no? Is it riskier to get leevl 14 or riskier to get 1750 favor, for example?


3 man madstone/crucible elite is low risk?
Nope. I never said that. Though I wouldn't advocate running Ghosts with a PD group, would you say that's a low-risk quest? How about running level-appropriate stuff on Elite before level 9? For example, doign the optionals in a quest as low level as Walk the Butcher's Path. Do you consider that to be low-risk at 4th level? I suppose it is if you get none of the nameds or don't even bother trying to do the optionals. Perhaps now you'll understand where I'm ocming from.


Actually, most of us in Legion like quests like the Pit--its actually one of my favorites. I really fail to see how you think, by anything that was typed in this thread, where they ignored the most difficult content?
Well, it's difficult for you to be objective since it's your guild here. They skipped a lot of optionals. Granted, optionals are just that - optional. I also mentioned that performing level-appropriate quests before achieving level 9 is actually more difficult than proponents in this thread seem to be acknowledging. Perhaps they assumed I meant somehting like "How DARE you not run The Miller's Debt on Elite?" Nothing could be further from the truth.


Especially considering they did EVERYTHING with a maximum of 4 people?
While this is a topic for another thread, oftentimes it's easier to do something with 4 than it is with 6.


Skipping quests does not equal ignoring difficult content.
I disagree. I also hardly believe that they mapped out the toughest possible quests on their way to 14. Again, if the goal is to achieve 14 in the most efficient way possible, then I'd definitely try to minimize my risks too, especially if I'm tryign to get there extremely fast.


Uh huh. 4 people dedicating 3-4 hrs a couple nights a week, playing hard and fast = little effort. God I hope you don't work on a hourly rate. Let's imagine that they are contract workers... they get the money when they finish the work.
If you equate DDO to a job, then I guess this is where I leave the conversation.


The goal was not to hit lvl 14 at the same time as reaching 1750 favor. I don't think it is even possible.
Actually, it is.


Have you actually 3-manned Madstone/Crucible elite under level?
Definitely a great accomplishment. No doubt.


Especially considering there are no elite openers... they can't, like I did, join a pug running the Elite level bypassing the xp from normal and hard.
How is that relevant to PD?


I also fail to see what if was in Renegade's posts where he slighted you causing you to come out guns blazing...
Where were my guns blazing? Quote me, please.

[MysticRhythms]

What did we skip, piddly little crappy quest's maybe.
What does "crappy" mean? Some people take it to mean "wow that's a hard quest with nothing to show for it." One element of that statement is "that's a hard quest." So what do you mean by "crappy?"


My quest completions are above Mystic, you tell me.
You do realize that the quest completion you listed is exactly the quest completion most people who power-level perform, right? Why do you think they do those quests for power-leveling? Is it because they're difficult?


Maybe Necropolis tomb quests?
Those are pretty challenging for their level, aren't they?


I would rather stab myself in the eye with a broken Doritto, than run those
If I were trying to achieve level 14 as fast as possible, I would too. If I were trying to challenge myself to complete the content of the game at the levels the quests are supposedly designed for, then I'd consider it a badge of honor worthy of an acknowledgment in this forum. Wouldn't you?


We never did quests that were not in our level range,
Earlier above, someone in your group stated that you "went back to complete quests for favor." So which is it?


but to accomplish what you keep arguing about, we would of had too.
No you wouldn't have. If you wanted to, you could hold off leveling and perform the majority of quests at the stated levels. But holding off leveling would detract you from your goal - fast achievement of level 14, so I can understand why you wouldn't do it a different way.


I would think that would be kind of cheating, considering we would of reached the Vons at level 14 by doing everything else first.
I do believe I mentioned in my previous posts that I wouldn't advocate running quests far below a character's level.


By the way, try and refrain from picking apart my post line by line
I prefer to address items line by line so that I make sure I point out proper quotations where I use them. It also helps me avoid copying entire posts when I'm addressing just a few points within a particular post. Your'e the first person that I've ever seen consider that form of response "trolling."


"HIT 14 WITHOUT DOING A QUEST OVER LEVEL 8"
Have fun with Stormcleave at level 13....real challenging. ;)[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you read what I write, you'd see htat this is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

I have one more question and then I'll respectfully bow out of the thread.

What did you want to hear from anyone (outside of Legion) about your accomplishment?

[Renegade66]

I titled my post "bringeth thy hate..." because historically any legion achievement is met with scorn, resentment and bitterness. This does not bother me. In fact, I encourage it. Without lamebrain, wannabe's jumping in and making themselves look like complete fools, there would be little to no fun on the forums.

I appreciate all the sincere congratulatory posts received by many of you. However, I also appreciate the idiotic, singleminded posts that make me feel a little better about myself and help speed my work day along.

Thank you both.

[juniorpfactors]

I am sure someone will add that your not "Permadeath" capped until you beat the Abbott without dying....:D

JRP sure was permadeathed last night about 6 times:)

[Rayzorlew]

What did you want to hear from anyone (outside of Legion) about your accomplishment?

Honestly, the truth......thats it.
From you it would sound like this....

Congrats Ren,
I play a PD character also, yet I haven't accomplished really anything compared to you and your group.
So instead I'm going to pick apart your accomplishments and be as petty as I possibly can, out of plain jealousy.
I really don't have a leg to stand on with my arguement so I'm just going to babble on, and say things as ridiculous as the
Necropolis tomb quests are hard.
See I know I'll never be able to complete most of the quests Rayzorlew has on his quest completion page with my PD character.
So instead I'll say stuff like "You do realize that the quest completion you listed is exactly the quest completion most people who power-level perform, right?
Why do you think they do those quests for power-leveling? Is it because they're difficult?"
knowing full well those quest have the best xp because they are harder.
The only thing I didn't figure in was what am I going to say to my own guild "Sublime."
Oh well its just a game no one can see me, I don't care how bitter I look.


Try that.:D

[JayDubya]

From a long term (although not recent) Permadeather, congrats Razor. That's an awesome accomplishment.

Having a cohesive team of great players is probably the ideal way to do it, too.

[Rayzorlew]

From a long term (although not recent) Permadeather, congrats Razor. That's an awesome accomplishment.

Having a cohesive team of great players is probably the ideal way to do it, too.

Thanx Jay. :D
I also agree with you, I believe it is all in the team make-up.

[Clay]

The thing I don't understand MR, is where you get the idea that they ran everything over level?

We in Legion, when leveling, usually run everything under level where possible to max out xp. WE don't run "level appropriate"... we run under level. You still are not giving any justification for your equating skipping quests we a. don't like b. have low xp for time for completion and c. have low favor with skipping hard quests.

It really sounds like you have a row to hoe against them reaching lvl 14 in PD and are trying to find someway to detract from it.

I don't see anything in their quest list that is called easy.

Again you accuse them of minimizing risk. What thread are you reading? It certainly isn't the same one I am. 3 man PotP elite is minimizing risk? C'mon man.

I don't equate DDO with a job, I was trying to use it to illustrate a point. Which was in vain as you are intentionally harping on the same assumptions anyways. Or are being intentionally obtuse.

The purpose of the thread is not to have people say how great they are... I am pretty sure their self image is not dependent upon what you think of them as DDO gamers. Discourse is always welcome, but you are providing no substance to support your claims. It is more like you read the thread, judge it by your own ezperiences, assume they can't have done that they did without being over level for quests and they come out with fingers blazing.

[Dirac]

Sorry, late to the party here. Congrats! That is very impressive; in fact, the accomplishments are more impressive all the time.

[MysticRhythms]

The thing I don't understand MR, is where you get the idea that they ran everything over level?
I never said this. In fact, if you read the thread you'll see this in post #45:


3) Rarely ran quests below our level unless it was to finish up favor


You still are not giving any justification for your equating skipping quests we a. don't like b. have low xp for time for completion and c. have low favor with skipping hard quests.
Do you consider something liek Freshen the Air or Swiped Signet at-level to be hard quests? Yes or no? Before suggesting that they are not worth much XP, jsut answer - are they difficult to do at-or-under level?


It really sounds like you have a row to hoe against them reaching lvl 14 in PD and are trying to find someway to detract from it.
Nope. I already stated that level 14 is impressive. Doing the Titan Permadeath is impressive. I can quote myself on these points if you like, but I did state that.


I don't see anything in their quest list that is called easy.
Waterworks, Tangleroot, STK, Cult of the Six, etc, are not normally considered difficult quests, are they? They're done by the general populace most often because of large ratio of rewards to risk. That's why they're done over and over, isn' it?


Again you accuse them of minimizing risk. What thread are you reading? It certainly isn't the same one I am. 3 man PotP elite is minimizing risk? C'mon man.
Simple question - is it easier to do ALL of the content or to do only the content that rewards you the most? If you do all of the content, aren't you doing everything they've done above and then some? So isn't it by definition, harder?


Which was in vain as you are intentionally harping on the same assumptions anyways.
Harping? No. repeating statements I've made that have yet to be addressed? Absolutely.


The purpose of the thread is not to have people say how great they are...
Alright. What is its purpose then?


Discourse is always welcome, but you are providing no substance to support your claims.
What kind of substance am I missing? I've named quests and objectives. The response so far has been "we don't liek those quests/objectives." Well, ok then. That doesn't mean said quests/objectives aren't challenging or risky, does it?


It is more like you read the thread, judge it by your own ezperiences, assume they can't have done that they did without being over level for quests and they come out with fingers blazing.
I believe they played by their stated permadeath rules and achieved level 14 the way they say they did. Absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[gemineye]

I have one more question and then I'll respectfully bow out of the thread.

enough already....As much as I like laughing at the troll, enough is enough.

[Renegade66]

zzz...zzz...zzz...

I'd say this thread jumped the shark long back.

Simply put, being first to cap a permatoons is worth mentioning. Disappointment in not being the first is an unfortunate side effect. Idiots coming out of the woodwork is inevitable.

Thanks for all the words of encouragement. Kind or otherwise, all are appreciated.

I really hope more people try Permadeath in whatever rule set you find fun and challenging. I was really against it until I tried it. If you have half as much fun as we have then you'll have a blast that adds a new dimension to a sometimes stale gaming experience.

[Strings]

Here's my quest list for my perma/qausideath bard: 1024 favor @ 14.

Renegade and Rayzor played more than me and did many adventures while they waited for a full group (edit: by full group I mean all 4 of us), so there's will differ from mine, but to at least give you guys an idea, here's some screen shots:

http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor01.jpg
http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor02.jpg
http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor03.jpg
http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor04.jpg
http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor05.jpg
http://cjcrawford.com/img/favor06.jpg

[MysticRhythms]

Thanks for the list, Strings.

Some of he Elite/Hard stuff is impressive and of course all the Titan stuff is on any difficulty.

[Hafeal]

Having just started a permadeath character in the past week and being involved in re-invigorating permadeath on Khyber with the only active permadeath guild, I will say I am impressed. We have had people dying at level 2!



Congratulations on the extremely impressive achievement. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

_

You are correct by my account and that is how we have the permadeath set-up.


First, grats on the achievement.

Second, Permadeath is only permadeath up to level 9 (or 6 if you allow the enhancement). After this, it is just a more difficult ruleset you follow.

And if you won't allow the cleric to raise dead at 9, then it wouldn't be dnd anymore...


Hail Guidlmate. Well, yes and no - party wipe is a party-wipe. And if you lose your rezzer ...

Overall I agree, there is a mental "safety-net" when you know the cleric or other party member can rez you. But it is far from fool-proof.

[Clay]

Do you consider something liek Freshen the Air or Swiped Signet at-level to be hard quests? Yes or no? Before suggesting that they are not worth much XP, jsut answer - are they difficult to do at-or-under level?

Honestly, no I don't consider FtA hard. All it takes is a little strategy and preparation. Swiped signet, more of a challenge, but again, not more than any of the chain quests at or under level. Of course if you try to toe-to-toe the mobs standing in the sleet storm, then yeah yer gunna have trouble... but the whole point they are saying over and over is that: they ran in a tight group working together with strategy and tactics.


Waterworks, Tangleroot, STK, Cult of the Six, etc, are not normally considered difficult quests, are they? They're done by the general populace most often because of large ratio of rewards to risk. That's why they're done over and over, isn' it?

So, you think a fighter not twinked, casters not twinked, tackling CO6 elite under level is easy? Flamestrike, DR/SR on the renders and reavers... Is it at all possible that they are done more because they are better designed and more fun? Tackle Tangleroot elite with a level 4/5 group. The end boss is CR 15. That's easy? Well, I think it isn't hard... but it does take skill and teamwork. Any lowbie quest, with Kobald shamans on elite, can be difficult. How is it that you can say that freshen the air is hard an these examples are not? What ARE you doing in freshen the air? The end boss in STK... can easily wipe out a group by standing on the shield blockers' heads and wiping the caster/cleric out--and in PD thats instant reroll... They did state that first off they got 150 coin lords favor, then House P favor.



Simple question - is it easier to do ALL of the content or to do only the content that rewards you the most? If you do all of the content, aren't you doing everything they've done above and then some? So isn't it by definition, harder?

Well... as I play this game for fun, even though I have 11 capped toons, 4 midlevel and several lowbies, I have only completed Catacombs on 4 toons. I disagree that doing all the content is necessarily harder than just playing the game to get maximum enjoyment. Harder in terms of forcing myself to do quests I don't enjoy then sure. harder in terms of strategy? No, I don't think so. I think some quests are mislabeled in their dificulties sure, but not anything that makes them hard enough that I would not do them.


I believe they played by their stated permadeath rules and achieved level 14 the way they say they did. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. You know MR, I keep looking in the game guides section on how to properly achieve lvl 14 permadeath style but couldn't fine one. You intentionally misinterpret and mis read when, to be honest, I think they have made an effort to answer your questions... if you choose to read with a closed mind then of course you wouldn't see the answers anyways.

But sure have welcomed the "discussion."

[Strings]

You know MR, I keep looking in the game guides section on how to properly achieve lvl 14 permadeath style but couldn't fine one.

Strings' Guide to lvl 14 Permadeath:

Classes Needed:

1-2 Mage(s) - Sorc + Wiz would be awesome
1 Rogue (Traps on Elite are brutal)
1 Bard (Fascinate will save your group countless times)
1 Cleric - Buffs & Raise Dead


Preparation

Master the crucible swim on your squishiest character.
Learn the fastest / safest tapestry run in the orchard
Have your mage(s) learn the web + firewall trick (Thanks Renegade!).
Make your non-essential classes be fat dwarves for better door blocking.
Block every door, make sure non-door blockers don't have initial agro.


Misc

If you click buttons with your mouse to cast spells, don't roll a mage.
Get house P buffs as soon as you can while leveling.
Always group with the same people so you can share loot and get to know each other's play style.
Beholders can be fascinated (which does not break on a save, *hint hint*)
Refrain from playing when you're completely hammered (oops)


Hope this helps Clay!!

[MondoGrunday]

i think the most amazing accomplishment here is the fact he capped a toon in a month and that toon was perma death!!!!
i just don't see how that is possible.

[Renegade66]

i think the most amazing accomplishment here is the fact he capped a toon in a month and that toon was perma death!!!!
i just don't see how that is possible.

It really doesn't take that long if you run high XP quests and have a good team with you with little downtime transitioning. I expect people that play all day long can get there within a week and certainly less than two.

[MondoGrunday]

It really doesn't take that long if you run high XP quests and have a good team with you with little downtime transitioning. I expect people that play all day long can get there within a week and certainly less than two.

it's still amazing to me (not saying it can't be done) that it was done with a perma death toon tho. i would figure a much more slow and cautious approach which would drastically increase the time to complete. somewhere between a casual player and hardcore player. I teach so I have summers off and play quite a bit during the day in summer. It took me 3 1/2 weeks to level my sorc. I only used pug's and no effecient leveling runs with my guild. That toon was not perma death and I figure it would take significantly longer to cap that toon if it were perma death. But less time if I ran specific quests with guildmates. I'm still amazed it was done in a month. that is the most impressive part of your accomplishment. Gratz :D

[Renegade66]

Thanks again.

A more cautious approach is definitely required, but that's relative.

Non-perma, we zerg 99%+ (run, die, rez). With perma, we still zerged a ton. Maybe as high as 90%. In any given quest, the time difference between running into a room and laying waste versus shield blocking at a door is a matter of seconds. Having everyone in the group knowing when to zerg and when to slow down allows the fastest perma-leveling possible. Forming a like minded and like skilled team as we did can be incredibly difficult.

[Uamhas]

Congrats to Ren in particular, and Legion Permadeath in general. Good times, gentlemen.

[parvo]

Any plans for this character or Legion PD group to do any of the mod six content without doing it non-PD first?

[Renegade66]

Any plans for this character or Legion PD group to do any of the mod six content without doing it non-PD first?

Doubtful. Legion is first and foremost a bunch of zergers looking to be the first to get the best new loot.

[parvo]

Doubtful. Legion is first and foremost a bunch of zergers looking to be the first to get the best new loot.

Oh man...you gotta do at least one quest like that in your PD career. It's the most memorable PD play you can do. It'll really take you back to those PnP days. Preferably one you hear is hard but not a total death trap. Poison (pre-nerf) was a good one like that.

[Riorik]

I am amazed that somebody could run a permadeath character to level cap in that short a time - I'd guess he probably lived online.

However, stating what I think is probably obvious, the single most important factor for survival in quests is experience. There are a lot of things that affect survival but the #1 item in my book is knowing the quest - something that transforms something impossible or hard into CandyLand difficulty. Sometimes, Zerging is actually the technique that minimizes quest difficulty - why wait to let them hit you?

[Renegade66]

I am amazed that somebody could run a permadeath character to level cap in that short a time - I'd guess he probably lived online.

However, stating what I think is probably obvious, the single most important factor for survival in quests is experience. There are a lot of things that affect survival but the #1 item in my book is knowing the quest - something that transforms something impossible or hard into CandyLand difficulty. Sometimes, Zerging is actually the technique that minimizes quest difficulty - why wait to let them hit you?

Didn't live online at all. We played 3-4 times a week. Maybe 2-3 hours on a weekday and a bit more on a weekend day. I'd say this is a reasonable amount of playtime. The key to leveling that fast is hitting the high XP per minute quests. Run on normal, hard and elite and move on. You can level even faster if you pharm the high XP/min quests, but our PD rules don't allow that. We ran Crucible on norm/hard/elite in about 90 min including going back to town. That's huge XP for such a short amount of time.

You're right in that knowing the quests and knowing when to slow down is absolutely key. It only takes one idiot to wipe the party though (especially when you're only 3-4 manning), so having the same core group of players knowing how each other plays is at least as important. Also right up there is having the right group make-up. We had a battle cleric, heal bard, batman build and the sorc to kill everything. A very flexible group that can each get the others out of a jam. Finally, you have to throw into the mix player skill.

[brshelton]

That wouldn't be a challenge, that would just be stupid. We have however started a permadeath group fresh on Sarlona. Our group make-up is more typical. For example, I'm playing a straight Barbarian. Again, no AH. We aren't using Vendors for weapons and armor, but do use it for wands, scrolls and pots.

ive seen yall running around sarlona and for some reason your cleric gets in the PvP pit. Whats the rules on that?

[Renegade66]

ive seen yall running around sarlona and for some reason your cleric gets in the PvP pit. Whats the rules on that?

PvP deaths don't count. I think this is a pretty standard PD rule.