Why wouldn't I want a lvl of Rogue?

[Standpoint]

?? It seems to me that the only thing a Bard is missing over a Rogue is Evasion, and Disable Device. Why couldn't I take a lvl of Rogue for these two items? What would you lose on the Bard side of things?

Thanks for any replies,

[Obitus]

?? It seems to me that the only thing a Bard is missing over a Rogue is Evasion, and Disable Device. Why couldn't I take a lvl of Rogue for these two items? What would you lose on the Bard side of things?

Thanks for any replies,

Well, for one thing, you'd need 2 levels of Rogue for Evasion, and then you'd be giving up fifth level spells.

If you take only one level of Rogue, then you get two fifth level spells, but you lose out on an Inspire Courage upgrade at 14. That's probably a worthwhile trade off at the current level cap (if you want to roll a relatively high-INT Bard to disable traps), but when the level cap goes up (to 16), you'll be locked out of taking sixth level spells. :)

[Thrudh]

A Bard/Rogue is a great combination (My main is one)... but you have to plan it out ahead of time... And it IS a trade-off

To keep Perform, Haggle, UMD, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and Spot all maxed out takes some planning (plus you probably want a few ranks in Jump, Tumble, Balance, etc. if possible, right?)

What you mainly lose is spells... plus you'll want a decent to high INT (which means other stats have to suffer a little)

My 11/3 Bard/Rogue currently can't cast 5th level spells.. I do wish I could cast Mass Suggestion and/or Mind Fog... Greater Herosim I can get off scrolls (kind of expensive though), but in exchange I can open any lock and disable any trap in the game (not counting Cabal on elite - I can get it on hard).

If you do go this route, definitely plan out your skills from level 1 to 14... definitely take Rogue at 1st level... I highly recommend taking Rogue at 6th and 13th (and someday 19th) for the most efficient use of skill points.

You can skimp on Spot and Open Lock if you want, and only get 1-2 levels of Rogue (If you're going to splash Rogue, get at least 2 levels though.. Evasion is very nice).

When they raise the cap, I'll be a 13/3 Bard/Rogue... I'll finally get my 5th level spells... but I'll be missing out on 6th level spells... I don't plan on seeing 6th level spells until 20th level (when I'll be a 16/4 Bard/Rogue)

[DasLurch]

I have to say, I like the idea of your build. Can ya post it?

[EinarMal]

BlackBard The Pirate

Goals:
This is a TWF DPS with rogue skills build. Take another level of Bard at 15 and pick up GTWF. At that point when getting sneak attacks you will have the highest possible DPS Bard in the game. It does require a +1 dex tome so that you can take ITWF and GTWF with 16 starting dex.

(Drow Male Neutral Warchanter Bard 10/Rogue 4)

Stats:
Str 16 (28 =16 +3 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh +6 Item)
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Favor Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 14 (20 =14 +6 Item)
Wis 8 8
Cha 12 (20 =12 +2 Enh. +6 Item)

Level Progression:
1-Rogue
2 thru 5-Bard
6-Rogue
7 thru 12-Bard
13 thru 14-Rogue

Skills:
Disable Device-17 Ranks
Search-17 Ranks
UMD-17 Ranks
Spot-17 Ranks
Perform-17 Ranks
Open Lock-17 Ranks

Feats:
TWF
WF Piercing
Power Attack
ITWF
IC Piercing

HP:
84(Levels) +20(Hero) +10(Draco) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 228(Raged)

SP:
275(10 Bard) +95(Cha) +100(Magi) +40(EOM II) = 510

Enhancements:
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Bard Inspired Damage II
Bard Inspired Attack II
Bard Charisma II
Bard EOM II
Bard Inspired Bravery II
Warchanter
Rogue Disable Device II
Lingering Song II
Rogue Dex I
Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Rogue Haste Boost II
Rogue Skill Boost II
Bard Extra Song I

Spells:
1-Exp. Retreat, Remove Fear, Cure Light, Focusing Chant
2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Cure Moderate
3-Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Cure Serious
4-Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door

To Hit:
BAB 10
Racial 2
Str 9
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
34 (29 PA)

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 9
Song 6
PA 5
Racial 2
27 (22 Offhand)

DPS Calculation:
+5 Holy Rapier/Treason

Rapier = 1d6 + 27 +2d6(Holy) +2d6(Sneak) + 9(Sneak Bonus) = 30.5 + 23 (61 + 23 Critical) = 87.96
Shortsword = 1d6 + 22 +2d6(Sneak) +9(Sneak Bonus) = 25.5 + 16 (51 + 16 Critical) = 32.65
Total: 120.61

Level 14 Skills:
Search:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +2(Drow) +3(Boost) +13(Item) +2(Luck)= 46

Disable:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +11(Item) +7(Tools) +2(Luck) +2 (Enh) = 51

Open Lock:
13(Ranks) +7(Dex) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +11(Item) +7(Tools) +2(Luck) = 47

Spot:
17(Ranks) -1(Wis) +4(GH) +2(Drow)+13(Item) +2(Luck) = 37

UMD:
17(Ranks) +5(Cha) +4(GH) +5(7 Fingered) +3(Boost) +2(Luck)= 36

[EinarMal]

As for your original question, what you give up is some of the fighting/casting versatility of the Bard class. You can't really be good at rogue skills (requires int to keep skills up), casting, and fighting. So, the build above I pretty much gave up on any spell based crowd control. So, I fight, buff, and do the rogue stuff. You could also go more with a casting style Bard/Rogue as well.

[Standpoint]

Thanks everyone.

I currently am at 2nd lvl with an 18 INT and 18 CHA unbuffed. Drow build. While I would likely miss the higher level spells, I think that evasion and disable device, along w/ sneak attack, would make more sense to me. It takes me a long time to level charecters, and I honestly don't think this bard would even reach past 10th level until a good year from now, so those benefits mentioned would probably be better for me and my purpose.

I think I need to do some research on multi-classing, as I don't get the concept of when to take another class yet. I was thinking of taking my 3rd and 4th levels as Rogue. If anyone has a good reason why I should not do this, please let me know.

Thanks again,

[Obitus]

Thanks everyone.

I currently am at 2nd lvl with an 18 INT and 18 CHA unbuffed. Drow build. While I would likely miss the higher level spells, I think that evasion and disable device, along w/ sneak attack, would make more sense to me. It takes me a long time to level charecters, and I honestly don't think this bard would even reach past 10th level until a good year from now, so those benefits mentioned would probably be better for me and my purpose.

I think I need to do some research on multi-classing, as I don't get the concept of when to take another class yet. I was thinking of taking my 3rd and 4th levels as Rogue. If anyone has a good reason why I should not do this, please let me know.

With 18 INT (on a non-human), you should be getting 10 skill points for each Bard level, and 12 for each Rogue level.

Key skills for you will include:

Disable Device
Search
Spot
Open Locks
Perform
UMD

Skills that are nice to have include:

Jump
Balance
Tumble
Diplomacy

So, starting with Rogue will give you enough to put 4 points each into all of the above, plus 2 more skills besides. From then on, you have just enough points to keep the skills in the first list maxed on your Bard levels (2 each in DD, OL, Search, and Spot + 1 each in Perform and UMD = 10), so it really doesn't matter when you take Rogue 2, except to the extent that you might want to toss a few extra points into Jump or Diplo.

Starting with Bard makes it a little harder, because (AFAIK) you can't even put points into Disable Device and Open Lock unless your build has those as class skills. So right off the bat, you're 8 ranks behind. But if you don't want to reroll, then at second level I imagine you have something like this going on:

Disable Device N/A
Search 5
Spot 5
Open Locks N/A
Perform 5
UMD 5
Jump 5
Balance 5
Tumble 5
Diplomacy 5

And then you probably have 10 points floating around in other places. If that's the case, then you could take Rogue at 3, rank up DD to 6, Open Locks to 3, and Search, Spot, and UMD to 6 each. From there, you can proceed more or less as in the prior example, except that you'll have to steal another point away from Open Locks at some point (before Bard level 9) and put it into Perform.

Perform is only important to the extent that you need a certain number of ranks in the skill to qualify for certain Bard-related feats (songs). Since there are no saving throws to oppose songs, having the highest possible perform skill doesn't do a whole lot for you. I believe that the highest number you need in the current game is 15, for Song of Freedom, though I'd question how useful Song of Freedom really is in practice. Next lowest is 12 ranks for Inspire Greatness. So in theory you could stop ranking up Perform after Bard level 9 if you want extra points for something else, but you do definitely want to keep Perform maxed at least until Inspire Greatness.

Open Locks is a bit less important than the other rogue skills, because there is no penalty (except of course for the time invested) for trying to unlock a door as many times as you want. Eventually, you'll get it as long as your skill is within 20 points of the DC. I've seen Rogue builds with only 5 or 6 base ranks in the skill do fine in most of the game's content, but happily your build won't be that far behind. Just keep in mind that it's not necessarily a high priority always to keep OL as high as possible throughout.

You have enough skill points floating around that you can get away with splashing Rogue almost whenever you want and still be fine at the end, as long as you keep your skill-point priorities firmly in mind.

[~Jules921]

To map out your multi-classing options try the character planner available here:
http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/

One of the nice things about the program is that you can export your buil and paste it here for us to give you pointers on the build. It allows you to do a lot of what if's. How many spell points would I have if I took a level of.... etc.

Jules

[query]

(Curently warforged Wiz 12 Rogue 2....but at this instance going to wiz 13.....and this was back in the day when they simply didn't "do" warforged wizzies yet. Now, every other one has some or is a wiz or evn a "gimped" sorcerer.)

Yes, I too was advisd how my build was "gimped" on both sides of the class debate. Yes, I lost the highest tier of spells, can't "boost" as high as a pure rogue, and sometimes since my dex is a measly 22 I don't open that lock as fast and I didn't ALWAYS find the pre-mod 6 Cabal "impossible for non pure" rogue but ALWAYS disabled it if found.


But they shut up when they got stuck in a bad trap with "no" rogue in the party who disabled it while forgetting to put his disable device on in elite (oopsie.) They gawked as I ran out of spell points, brought Treason out, and slaughtered em flanking the tanks. And the other wizards were grateful when they made their reflex save yet died from the damage, while I'm in the enemies's CK taking every elemental spell thinkable, and not taking a scratch a I PK and MM/Force Missiles those annoying casters left-so I could take their soulstones back to the shrine if the cleric was out of resources......or I could use my own Res scroll with my 6 cha and mostly succeed even when I forget my Cartouche. ("But....but wizards/rogues don't DO that!" "Oh really? What did I just do" ]and without Insightful Reflexes which I'm getting at L 15 making me even HIGHER in the reflex saves?])


Yeah, when Reaver came out and "they" mentioned I was not going to be in the raids since "it's impossible without Finger of Death and 'disco balls' to do," funny who took down all those eles by PK without metamagic while the other casters cast those unused Otto's Sphere's and I happened to buff the entire raid nicely if the other pure wizzies didn't jump the gun before me. Gosh...was it my lowly disintigrate and wall of fires at the end that helped kill the reaver while I was flying in the air?


Yeah, NEVER accept a buld simply "won't work."

But as stated before, this doesn't happen on the fly. Every point, every feat, every EP must be watched and tracked, and you have to be ready to redo it all over or at least respec what you are able to (such as it just didn't work out with Mithral plating, but Composite plating worked fine, even with a non-prof shield carried, I have lesser sigil and never fail a casting with it on.) And mind you...I did this my first 28 point character on DDO (yes my first PC there ever,) without the character planner's help then. You can imagine how merticulous I had to be with stat, skill, feat, enhancement poitns, even spell selections are carefully thought out every level by level (since you only get 2 after wiz1/level and not all scrolls are obtainable to learn....*&^*&^&* no mass charm when it was around!)




So, you now know why we go at least 2 rogue, and begin to weigh the pros/cons above beyond 2 (eg more sneak damage vs fewer spells and power of casted spells.)

But don't be afraidf to splash a little L 1 rogue too (highly highly highly reccommended at L 1 for the max skill,points, but not impossible if done later.) Just never be afraid tyo ask in DDO, "what if...."


My Deepwoods ranger Sniper with "only" 1 level of rogue and "ruined" since he's not getting Ranger 16 at mod 6,. would agree already at character level 4. Here, let me get that trap Mr. dead from failing their evasion save no disable specialist.......