Congratz Legion PD!

[Memnir]

Okay, I rarely tout my own achievements in DDO - let along those of others - but I was talking to some members of Legion PermaDeath, and I wanted to share this one.

Legion Permadeath four-manned the Titan w/o a single death.

I've seen some of the screenshots, and if I can host them I'll gladly share them. I know Legion started the whole "screenshots or it means nothing" deal... that's why I wanted to see the shots before I believed it myself. I may be friends with a few of the Legion guys, but that's still quite a thing to pull off. I had to see it to believe it.

So - congrats Legion Permadeath!!! Four-manning the Titan is a hell of a thing even when non-permadeath rules are in place. Doing it permadeath, and winning, is both insane and amazing at the same time.

[Renegade66]

Okay, I rarely tout my own achievements in DDO - let along those of others - but I was talking to some members of Legion PermaDeath, and I wanted to share this one.

Legion Permadeath four-manned the Titan w/o a single death.

I've seen some of the screenshots, and if I can host them I'll gladly share them. I know Legion started the whole "screenshots or it means nothing" deal... that's why I wanted to see the shots before I believed it myself. I may be friends with a few of the Legion guys, but that's still quite a thing to pull off. I had to see it to believe it.

So - congrats Legion Permadeath!!! Four-manning the Titan is a hell of a thing even when non-permadeath rules are in place. Doing it permadeath, and winning, is both insane and amazing at the same time.


Hey, thanks for the kudos Mem. That was a lot of fun and we went for full completion on the preraid and raid. Within a week, we should be knocking it out on elite. We might ask a guildy to come along to record only.

[Memnir]

Okay, here is the pic I was sent. I could only get my email to open one of them, but I'm told they also have shots of them getting past Twilight Forge w/o a death as well.

Like em or hate em (and I do both in equal measure) Legion can back up what they say. Part of the reason why I had to congratulate them is the fact that this is something I'm not sure I could pull off. Had to tip my hat to em.


screenshot link (http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5355/titan05ff2.jpg)

[Strings]

Thanks for the note Memnir.

Forge Completion SS:

http://www.cjcrawford.com/img/titan01_thumb.jpg (http://www.cjcrawford.com/img/titan01.jpg)

[parvo]

Let's not get confused about Permadeath. Permadeath rules are as varied as the players in DDO. Recently I heard (on the DDO cast) that a group of Permadeath players hit level fourteen. People are free to play how they wish, that's what makes DDO fun, but let's not get confused about how major public PD guilds quest. I've played with Sublime for over a year and never was there a party made up of every member who could cast raise dead either from scroll, spell or otherwise. Nor are there many members who repeat quests to grind XP and loot. Although not illegal within the Sublime ruleset, most people understand it's not within the spirit of PD and don't do it. Some won't even accept a scroll raise when it's available. Don't get me wrong, level fourteen under any PD ruleset is quite an accomplishment. I know it was a highly skilled group. But if that is how Sublime played, it would have been done a long time ago. Congrats to the folks who did this. It takes a lot of skill, patience and even luck but let's not confuse people about how major PD guilds play.

[Strings]

Let's not get confused about Permadeath. Permadeath rules are as varied as the players in DDO. Recently I heard (on the DDO cast) that a group of Permadeath players hit level fourteen. People are free to play how they wish, that's what makes DDO fun, but let's not get confused about how major public PD guilds quest. I've played with Sublime for over a year and never was there a party made up of every member who could cast raise dead either from scroll, spell or otherwise. Nor are there many members who repeat quests to grind XP and loot. Although not illegal within the Sublime ruleset, most people understand it's not within the spirit of PD and don't do it. Some won't even accept a scroll raise when it's available. Don't get me wrong, level fourteen under any PD ruleset is quite an accomplishment. I know it was a highly skilled group. But if that is how Sublime played, it would have been done a long time ago. Congrats to the folks who did this. It takes a lot of skill, patience and even luck but let's not confuse people about how major PD guilds play.
>>> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128596
I see what you did there.

[parvo]

>>> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128596
I see what you did there.

Yea, I made the comment before but it was burried under a mountain of folks jonesing for their fix.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great what they've done. But there are important distinctions between the way they play and the way public PD guilds play. As an example, I have a level ten that has never died and has close to the same amount of favor this group has. One has to wonder if they could do it without scroll raises along the way and re-running the same quests. And I don't mean keeping a level nine cleric in the back either. I believe it can be done. Perhaps that is Legion's next challenge.

[Dirac]

First of all grats, guys. Second, I am very interested in learning how to do a full completion of TF with a four person group. I've done Titan about 8-10 times with a full group. I am aware of how to get to the titan without getting completion on the TF part, but do not know how to do it and get completion with just four.

The reason is that I run with a static group of four people, and we have never done this raid for the sole reason I didn't know this point. Is the strategy posted in a public place I may look up? If not, would you guys be open to a pm in the future to ask how to do it?

Dirac

[Renegade66]

First of all grats, guys. Second, I am very interested in learning how to do a full completion of TF with a four person group. I've done Titan about 8-10 times with a full group. I am aware of how to get to the titan without getting completion on the TF part, but do not know how to do it and get completion with just four.

The reason is that I run with a static group of four people, and we have never done this raid for the sole reason I didn't know this point. Is the strategy posted in a public place I may look up? If not, would you guys be open to a pm in the future to ask how to do it?

Dirac

All four go purple and clear.
Three take red and 1 takes blue. Complete red water puzzle while blue range warforge uptop.
All four beat down 4 Golems then walk through red and purple barriers.
Dim Door back to begining and destroy purple and red crystals.
All four take green and complete green puzzle.
Two take blue and two take yellow.
Yellow clear to the south and (east?) levers. 1 blue goes to lever in water.
Remaining blue runs the floor puzzle and hits switches.
All gather and walk through green, blue and yellow barriers.
Done

[Renegade66]

If that is how Sublime played, it would have been done a long time ago. Congrats to the folks who did this. It takes a lot of skill, patience and even luck but let's not confuse people about how major PD guilds play.

1) I consider Sublime to be a "major PD guild".
2) We followed Sublime rules except we didn't allow the use of AH.

[KoboldKiller]

Awesome job guys!!!!!!!!!

[Strings]

And I don't mean keeping a level nine cleric in the back either.

The only time we left someone out of a fight the entire time of leveling, was doing Prison of the Planes, where you needed someone to pull the lever.

Our cleric is always front line (lol battle clerics). As the bard, I stayed in the fight to crowd control mobs who broke out of web, main heal and fascinate if things got dicey.

I guess we didn't know that it was "more honorable" to only do the quest once. As mentioned in many of the PD rulesets we observed, it stated that it was encouraged to do the quests at highest difficulty to keep it a challenge. So when running a static group, you HAVE to do the quest 3x to get elite difficulty - which we did. As soon as it was done on elite, we were done with that quest, as it's less efficient use of time to not get the bonuses and the penalty of repetition.


I've played with Sublime for over a year and never was there a party made up of every member who could cast raise dead either from scroll, spell or otherwise

I guess I don't see the point of NOT doing this...? But if you call "planning a perfect permadeath group" not playing fair (at least that is how I interpreted it), then I would like to hear your reasons. Honesty, we just thought we were being smart by planning ahead when we started our toons :) Not flaming at all! <3 I love the input from a hardcore permadeather as yourself, I'm just curious as the reason behind it.

[Dirac]

Thanks Renegade66, I greatly appreciate the help. Awesome. Grats again.

[parvo]

1) I consider Sublime to be a "major PD guild".
2) We followed Sublime rules except we didn't allow the use of AH.

You followed the letter of the rules true. But you certainly didn't play the way Sublime plays. Look at a high level sublime group and your lucky to have one raiser in the group and you will almost never see them "hang back". Nor do many members re-run quests to grind XP.

I'll give you the best example I can. We had a member come in that many regard as the most knowledgable ever in the ranks. I played with him quite a bit. He followed the letter of the rules, but in doing so, he purchased from broker and re-sold via auction. He had practically unlimited funds and was equiped better than most non-PD characters. He very rarely entered a quest where there was any chance of death and he had immunity to anything that was really dangerous. He reached level 13 with zero deaths. However, he found himself soloing almost all the time. Although he, I or both would have likely reached 14 together, I chose not to quest with him. Besides wanting to spend more than his 30-min House P buff limit in a quest, I didn't like the whole twinked out thing. It was not in the spirit of PD play. The same is true of parties with all raisers. You can call it PD, but it's really not in the spirit of PD play.

In two years, there has never been a party of four raisers in Sublime. That is not how they quest. Most of the Sublime players have zero deaths and some even delete after a "legal" scroll raise. I know only one member who reruns quests for XP and he only re-runs on elite and only in a very challenging way. I get the point that you used that rule set, but you didn't play the way Sublime plays.

It's still a great accomplishment. My hat's off to what is undoubtedly a skilled and patient group.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I've been in several Sublime parties where multiple members could raise (3/5 was the highest I think). It saved us once from a nasty turn of events with the VON1 troll when our main cleric went down. I've also been in a Gwylans Elite run where our Ranger sacrificed himself to save the only raiser .. who then proceeded to raise us all from scrolls. So I think most decisions are really up to the player. The guild rules are just there to make sure we are all pages from the same book.

I've always wanted to be a part of a static group that was build exclusively for permadeath. This group sounds like it is perfect, right down to Fascinate for backup (although I must admit my own dream group would be 6 battle clerics lol).

Now that Legion has done it without the auction house .. maybe that will shame Sublime into finally changing their rules hehe..

[maddmatt70]

I find the gripers all so odd. I think the most successful traits in a pd group are knowing the other players well and having a well built group for those players/the game. I think the "major PD guilds" should rethink their organizational strategy if they want optimum success. The whole strategy of having part time players or a revolving door of players coming and going will not get it done from an optimum success standpoint. I think the most successful pders are either in a small guild who has been playing with each other for months or a faction within a larger guild who have done much the same thing oh and these players should be pretty darn good as well. If the goal of a pd guild is to have fun trying to do pd that is fine, but if it is optimum success - you should rethink your strategy...

[parvo]

....I guess we didn't know that it was "more honorable" to only do the quest once. As mentioned in many of the PD rulesets we observed, it stated that it was encouraged to do the quests at highest difficulty to keep it a challenge. So when running a static group, you HAVE to do the quest 3x to get elite difficulty - which we did. As soon as it was done on elite, we were done with that quest, as it's less efficient use of time to not get the bonuses and the penalty of repetition.



I guess I don't see the point of NOT doing this...? But if you call "planning a perfect permadeath group" not playing fair (at least that is how I interpreted it), then I would like to hear your reasons. Honesty, we just thought we were being smart by planning ahead when we started our toons :) Not flaming at all! <3 I love the input from a hardcore permadeather as yourself, I'm just curious as the reason behind it.

I read from a post from one of the members that you farmed the hell out of quests for XP. That gave me the impression that you re-ran things like SC over and over. I like the idea of only doing each quest once on each difficulty and that is almost how I've set up the rules for Mortal Voyage. If my assumption was incorrect, I apologize. It does make a significant difference. I think almost anyone could grind XP to level a "PD" character to 14.

Hmmm...the point of not having everyone in the party as a raiser? The original Sublime PD'ers took great pride in reaching high levels with zero deaths. Some would not accept any raise period. Death was death. Sublime still has a lot of that original spirit left. They think nothing of questing with no raiser. I hope it's not offensive and I certainly don't intend it, but you're bypassing the primary alure of PD play. You've practically eliminated risk unless you have a full party wipe. I've seen very few full party wipes at the higher levels in PD play and most of those would have been avoided if every member could raise. As smart as it is, most PD'ers believe death is to be avoided, not planned and accounted for.

[Strings]

You followed the letter of the rules true. But you certainly didn't play the way Sublime plays. Look at a high level sublime group and your lucky to have one raiser in the group and you will almost never see them "hang back". Nor do many members re-run quests to grind XP.

I'll give you the best example I can. We had a member come in that many regard as the most knowledgable ever in the ranks. I played with him quite a bit. He followed the letter of the rules, but in doing so, he purchased from broker and re-sold via auction. He had practically unlimited funds and was equiped better than most non-PD characters. He very rarely entered a quest where there was any chance of death and he had immunity to anything that was really dangerous. He reached level 13 with zero deaths. However, he found himself soloing almost all the time. Although he, I or both would have likely reached 14 together, I chose not to quest with him. Besides wanting to spend more than his 30-min House P buff limit in a quest, I didn't like the whole twinked out thing. It was not in the spirit of PD play. The same is true of parties with all raisers. You can call it PD, but it's really not in the spirit of PD play.

In two years, there has never been a party of four raisers in Sublime. That is not how they quest. Most of the Sublime players have zero deaths and some even delete after a "legal" scroll raise. I know only one member who reruns quests for XP and he only re-runs on elite and only in a very challenging way. I get the point that you used that rule set, but you didn't play the way Sublime plays.

It's still a great accomplishment. My hat's off to what is undoubtedly a skilled and patient group.

Let's not get too off topic here, I explained our point of a few posts above, and you would be hard pressed to find anyone, including ourselves, who doesn't respect sublime and how they play, so we'll just leave it at that because we're all having fun, yes? <3

Anyways, this post is about an achievement of 4-manning the titan raid, permadeath style, not how we got there. Awesome work guys!

We plan on going back this friday to do it on Hard setting. Since we have other permadeath people posting in this thread, would it be wrong if we invited a non-permadeath toon to just come and video the raid, provided he or she doesn't do anything but video?

[parvo]

I've been in several Sublime parties where multiple members could raise (3/5 was the highest I think). It saved us once from a nasty turn of events with the VON1 troll when our main cleric went down. I've also been in a Gwylans Elite run where our Ranger sacrificed himself to save the only raiser .. who then proceeded to raise us all from scrolls. So I think most decisions are really up to the player. The guild rules are just there to make sure we are all pages from the same book.

I've always wanted to be a part of a static group that was build exclusively for permadeath. This group sounds like it is perfect, right down to Fascinate for backup (although I must admit my own dream group would be 6 battle clerics lol).

Now that Legion has done it without the auction house .. maybe that will shame Sublime into finally changing their rules hehe..

The Sublime exceptions you site are just that. I agree it's a great group. There's really two schools of thought here and neither is "correct".

[Drak]

You followed the letter of the rules true. But you certainly didn't play the way Sublime plays. Look at a high level sublime group and your lucky to have one raiser in the group and you will almost never see them "hang back". Nor do many members re-run quests to grind XP.

I'll give you the best example I can. We had a member come in that many regard as the most knowledgable ever in the ranks. I played with him quite a bit. He followed the letter of the rules, but in doing so, he purchased from broker and re-sold via auction. He had practically unlimited funds and was equiped better than most non-PD characters. THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT ALLOW AH (and next time round even the brokers are to be off limits) He very rarely entered a quest where there was any chance of death and he had immunity to anything that was really dangerous. He reached level 13 with zero deaths. However, he found himself soloing almost all the time. Although he, I or both would have likely reached 14 together, I chose not to quest with him. Besides wanting to spend more than his 30-min House P buff limit in a quest, I didn't like the whole twinked out thing. It was not in the spirit of PD play. The same is true of parties with all raisers. You can call it PD, but it's really not in the spirit of PD play.

In two years, there has never been a party of four raisers in Sublime. That is not how they quest. Most of the Sublime players have zero deaths and some even delete after a "legal" scroll raise. I know only one member who reruns quests for XP WE ONLY EVER DO A QUEST ONCE ON NORMAL ONCE ON HARD, ONCE ON ELITE. paraphrase of sublime rule "repeating a quest only on increased difficulty"and he only re-runs on elite and only in a very challenging way We do not rerun, even on elite. I get the point that you used that rule set, but you didn't play the way Sublime plays.

It's still a great accomplishment. My hat's off to what is undoubtedly a skilled and patient group.


I just noted some of your points where you got our ways wrong, hope this helps you understand better how we play.

[parvo]

I find the gripers all so odd. I think the most successful traits in a pd group are knowing the other players well and having a well built group for those players/the game. I think the "major PD guilds" should rethink their organizational strategy if they want optimum success. The whole strategy of having part time players or a revolving door of players coming and going will not get it done from an optimum success standpoint. I think the most successful pders are either in a small guild who has been playing with each other for months or a faction within a larger guild who have done much the same thing oh and these players should be pretty darn good as well. If the goal of a pd guild is to have fun trying to do pd that is fine, but if it is optimum success - you should rethink your strategy...

I agree with what you say about sucessful traits. I probably disagree on what is optimum success. In my opinion, optimum success in PD is zero deaths.

[Strings]

I read from a post from one of the members that you farmed the hell out of quests for XP. That gave me the impression that you re-ran things like SC over and over. I like the idea of only doing each quest once on each difficulty and that is almost how I've set up the rules for Mortal Voyage. If my assumption was incorrect, I apologize.
Yes, that was me haha.. but what I meant was yes, we shamefully chose to pick the higher xp quests over the favor grind quests in the market, house J or house K. And yes, we did run those 3x, once on each setting.. there are plenty of these quests where you're much more efficient by running all of them for max xp / time spent.

[parvo]

Yes, that was me haha.. but what I meant was yes, we shamefully chose to pick the higher xp quests over the favor grind quests in the market, house J or house K. And yes, we did run those 3x, once on each setting.. there are plenty of these quests where you're much more efficient by running all of them for max xp / time spent.

Abstaining from the auction house and running quests only once is a great way to go. Take a look at this rule set (and the spirit of) and see if that's what you guys want to do next.

www.mortalvoyage.com

Of course if you all made Clerics (raisers) under the MV rule set, I'll still smirk :)

I'm sorry if it sounded like griping, it certainly wasn't intended to be. I just wanted to answer the question of why Sublime hasn't done it. Sublime does a lot of questing at all levels without a raiser. A lot of high level Sublime characters would still be alive if everyone could raise.

[Strings]

Of course if you all made Clerics (raisers) under the MV rule set, I'll still smirk :)
haha.. to be very honest here.. our success was because of our sorc, maurader (sorry Ren, I gave it away). I made my bard to heal, CC, and DV for him. If it wasn't for a sorc, cleric buffs, traps being disabled, and fascinate / buffs, we would have never made it. An all cleric group would be far from my dream group. I honestly can't imagine a better group that what we put together. If anyone finds a better group than:

13 bard / 1 cleric (14 DVs - 32 CHA CC / Healing spec)
9 fighter / 3 rogue / 2 paladin
13 cleric / 1 fighter
14 sorc

Please let me know =)

[Strings]

Oh! and hats off to you "no-multi class" PD groups, that is a big feat.. I think that might be our next conquest.

[parvo]

haha.. to be very honest here.. our success was because of our sorc, maurader (sorry Ren, I gave it away). I made my bard to heal, CC, and DV for him. If it wasn't for a sorc, cleric buffs, traps being disabled, and fascinate / buffs, we would have never made it. An all cleric group would be far from my dream group. I honestly can't imagine a better group that what we put together. If anyone finds a better group than:

13 bard / 1 cleric (14 DVs - 32 CHA CC / Healing spec)
9 fighter / 3 rogue / 2 paladin
13 cleric / 1 fighter
14 sorc

Please let me know =)

The perfect group in Sublime is whoever is on at the time. It's a completely different mindset.

[parvo]

Oh! and hats off to you "no-multi class" PD groups, that is a big feat.. I think that might be our next conquest.

Don't make all Clerics and don't buy magical commodities, ie wands, scrolls, potions and then your challenging yourselves. Zero deaths should be the goal.

[Clay]

Hats off to Legion Permadeath... That's quite an accomplishment!

The glow from the congratulations (the one followed by the big "but" (no not my butt, but it certainly is a big one too.) positively warms my heart!


Congrats ... but let's not confuse people about how major PD guilds play.(There are, I am sure, other venues for discussion of the various rules regarding permadeath. But what do I know)

I think I shall take the glow I am still feeling from the congratulations and go start a permadeath character. I just hope I follow the right rules. Perhaps I should look for a major guild. Can anyone recommend one to me?

[Drak]

Hats off to Legion Permadeath... That's quite an accomplishment!

Thanks mate, we truly were not worried about it, but still were surprised by how easily we did it.

[parvo]

Thanks mate, we truly were not worried about it, but still were surprised by how easily we did it.

How many character deaths along the way?

[Renegade66]

How many character deaths along the way?

Not many and all were legitimately raised, per Sublime AND Mortal Voyage PD ruleset.
Your own rules allow raising the same as the rules we followed. I quote:
3. . . . You can only be raised if one of your living group-mates has the ability. You cannot invite others into the group to assist with raises. The same rule covers incapacitated characters.
4. . . . Consumable raise abilities are acceptable at any level.
Furthermore, you allow twinking in the form of giving pots, wands, scrolls and ammo. We allow NO twinking whatsoever.
"Exception; you can trade collectibles and consumable items like potions, wands, scrolls and ammo within the guild."

Smirk all you want, but the fact is that our 4-man permadeath group was able to accomplish on our first try in less than a month what all other "major PD guilds" could not over the past 2 years. Yourself included. We used a harsher version of the Sublime rules and even harsher than your own Mortal Voyage rules. You say yes those are the rules but not the "real rules". A "real" PD player would never take a rez even if it is within the confines of the rule. Not following your own guild's rules is kind of silly don't you think? You say oh sure, make a perfect set of characters, no wonder; then follow with I'm going to smirk if you make a perfect set of characters i.e. all battle clerics. What is your perfect set of characters? What we did or battle clerics? You say that Sublime would have reached 14 already if they would have followed their own rules like we did. Well, the fact is that they have been following their own rules and have not reached 14. This is not a rip on sublime they themselves admitted their biggest hurdle is getting a core group to play consistently together as we have. Not one of them has come back saying what you have and you need to stop speaking on their behalf. Make yourself look like a whiner and don't bring their outstanding guild into the mix.

You challenge us to do it without deaths. That's fine. I challenge you to come back when you've accomplished anything notable. You've gotten nowhere in two years with your rules. Maybe you don't have the skills to play at that level. I recommend you step back and follow your Mortal Voyage or Sublime rules and see how far you get. Then talk to me when you hit 14 and 4-man the Titan in less than 4 weeks effort.

[Recovery]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

[Renegade66]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

FRAPS or not, there's no way to prove rules were followed (no twinking, etc.). You used a lot of words to state your simple point being that you don't believe we did what we did. I love this kind of post because you know you did something exceptional when people start implying you are lying.

[parvo]

Not many and all were legitimately raised, per Sublime AND Mortal Voyage PD ruleset.
Your own rules allow raising the same as the rules we followed. I quote:
3. . . . You can only be raised if one of your living group-mates has the ability. You cannot invite others into the group to assist with raises. The same rule covers incapacitated characters.
4. . . . Consumable raise abilities are acceptable at any level.
Furthermore, you allow twinking in the form of giving pots, wands, scrolls and ammo. We allow NO twinking whatsoever.
"Exception; you can trade collectibles and consumable items like potions, wands, scrolls and ammo within the guild."

Smirk all you want, but the fact is that our 4-man permadeath group was able to accomplish on our first try in less than a month what all other "major PD guilds" could not over the past 2 years. Yourself included. We used a harsher version of the Sublime rules and even harsher than your own Mortal Voyage rules. You say yes those are the rules but not the "real rules". A "real" PD player would never take a rez even if it is within the confines of the rule. Not following your own guild's rules is kind of silly don't you think? You say oh sure, make a perfect set of characters, no wonder; then follow with I'm going to smirk if you make a perfect set of characters i.e. all battle clerics. What is your perfect set of characters? What we did or battle clerics? You say that Sublime would have reached 14 already if they would have followed their own rules like we did. Well, the fact is that they have been following their own rules and have not reached 14. This is not a rip on sublime they themselves admitted their biggest hurdle is getting a core group to play consistently together as we have. Not one of them has come back saying what you have and you need to stop speaking on their behalf. Make yourself look like a whiner and don't bring their outstanding guild into the mix.

You challenge us to do it without deaths. That's fine. I challenge you to come back when you've accomplished anything notable. You've gotten nowhere in two years with your rules. Maybe you don't have the skills to play at that level. I recommend you step back and follow your Mortal Voyage or Sublime rules and see how far you get. Then talk to me when you hit 14 and 4-man the Titan in less than 4 weeks effort.

Let's be perfectly honest. You didn't play by a rule set even close to Mortal Voyage. You used scroll raises the whole way which you purchased at vendors. You also bought wands and potions. I have no issue with your accomplishment until you start comparing it to what other guilds do. And BTW, I've played with Sublime for over a year, personally recruited many who play there and still consider it my PD home. They have members who regularly enter a dungeon with their highest character who have never set foot in it before (PD or non-PD). Don't belittle Sublime or any other PD guild by doing a bunch of quests you've done 200 times, raising your characters the whole way, and then calling PD easy. The Sublime rule set was created during a time when it was difficult to get people to try PD, so they left it pretty loose and relied on people to make personal choices if they wanted further challenge. They have a great spirit of challenging themselves beyond the letter of the rules.

I have a level ten Sublime with exactly zero deaths. Most of the quests he's done were with no raisers in the party. He's never purchased any potion, wand or scroll and he has 905 favor. From what I understand that is about 100 short of your level fourteen. He quests with whomever else is on in his level range. Everything he purchased from auction was deleted when I realized what a joke that was. He's a solid 28-pt build but nothing Uber. He hasn't accomplished everything I dream of but perhaps he will. It will certainly take more than four weeks and that is part of the point. I don't have a single PD character that has been raised. Those that have, were deleted the day after.

Be honest, how many times were your characters raised? Did any of them complete the permadeath journey with zero deaths? These are legitamate questions. Not that I doubt you could do it. On the contrary, I know you can. I'm surprised you didn't set a higher standard for such great players.

[parvo]

I have read the forums long enough to know the Legion accomplishments....and know the way they are presented to the public. On this issue there is absolutely no way to prove this was done with any rule set. ANY PD group could of leveled to 14, but unless you have an unedited FRAPs of the entire voyagae to 14 there is no way to prove this was done without any bending of rules or not. Also for a guild that always says "Screenshot it or it did not happen"... all you did was 4-manned the TF and cannot prove there was 0 deaths. All you can prove is that you 4-manned it.

That does not go to just the Legion guys, but anyone for that matter. Anyone can say we did it, cause they know there is no way to prove such a journey actually happened the way it did.

I am not here to take sides... If all is said and true then Congrats on a well done accomplishment...

on a side note i had a feeling that once this accomplishment area of the forums came up, this kind of jerkery would start.

I am not trying to flame just trying to give a neutral opinion on this.

I don't doubt the honor of anyone here at all. I just don't want folks thinking that Sublime runs around with every character having a stack of Raise scrolls and still can't get characters to 14. It's simply not the way most in Sublime play.

Furthermore, I don't see any jerkery here. Legitimate discussion that can be positive so long as folks take it for what it is and don't get bent. There's no sense in that.

[parvo]

FRAPS or not, there's no way to prove rules were followed (no twinking, etc.). You used a lot of words to state your simple point being that you don't believe we did what we did. I love this kind of post because you know you did something exceptional when people start implying you are lying.

I wholeheartedly believe you did it. I'd be shocked if Legion couldn't avoid a party wipe.

[Clay]

The thing I don't understand is that anytime you Say "congratulations" or variations thereof, it is immediately followed by a "but."

Discussion is always a healthy thing, but so are questions.

Instead of assuming that the rules Legion followed are easier than the rules "major public PD guilds" follow (again belittling any words of praise you have previously uttered.) Do you not see how condescending that makes your posts appear? Or is that your intent?

How about a post, in the Thread Congrats Legion PD, you simply say: Congrats Legion. Hey I was just wondering what rules you followed? Why is it so important for you to make readers of this thread believe Legion's accomplishments aren't "real PD" accomplishments?

And as for Sublime... We at Legion have the highest respect for them. They are the whole inspiration behind our creation of PD characters. Do you think that there has been no discussion between our guilds? Sublime and your own rules allow for rezzing by clerics and those who can umd scrolls. Your guild rules do not allow the purchase of magical consumables... but I haven't seen that stated in the Sublime rules. (I guess that included Jellycakes purchased on the AH which Legion does not allow.)

I welcome any discussion, but lets not kid ourselves that that is the purpose of your posts.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Too bad it has descended where it has. I do believe it has gotten a little harsh (on both sides).

Completing everything in the game (or something like it) without any deaths whatsoever is beyond the capability of mortals. That's an unrealistic challenge that is clearly designed to diminish the accomplishment. If _nobody_ in your party is _ever_ dying, it just means you are skipping the truly dangerous stuff. I'm sure you guys felt guilty enough whenever someone did die (all PD players do). Claiming a couple of tanks that haven't died yet is missing the point: groups need more than indestructible tanks.

On the other hand, rubbing a raid 4-man in the face of people, most of whom have never done a raid before is a bit uncalled for as well (althought it was clearly a reaction to a stick in the eye). There are plenty of folks that only play PD and experience all quests that way. The open PD guilds (I'd prefer to call it an open PD guild and not a 'major' one) serve as a haven for newbs who don't like the general populace spoiling everything for them, and also as a safe place for people to try out whatever wacky build they want to without the pressure of being shoe-horned into typical PUG roles. Sublime operating as it does, by having a revolving door, welcoming all comers and partying with whomever is on at the time, will probably never complete any raid in the game unless a dedicated experienced group of folks decides to create a static group within it.

So on behalf of the Sublime, thanks for realizing our pipe dream. Maybe the devs (and other players) will take notice.

[Renegade66]

Too bad it has descended where it has. I do believe it has gotten a little harsh (on both sides).

Completing everything in the game (or something like it) without any deaths whatsoever is beyond the capability of mortals. That's an unrealistic challenge that is clearly designed to diminish the accomplishment. If _nobody_ in your party is _ever_ dying, it just means you are skipping the truly dangerous stuff. I'm sure you guys felt guilty enough whenever someone did die (all PD players do). Claiming a couple of tanks that haven't died yet is missing the point: groups need more than indestructible tanks.

On the other hand, rubbing a raid 4-man in the face of people, most of whom have never done a raid before is a bit uncalled for as well (althought it was clearly a reaction to a stick in the eye). The open PD guilds (I'd prefer to call it an open PD guild and not a 'major' one) serve as a haven for newbs who don't like the general populace spoiling everything for them, and also as a safe place for people to try out whatever wacky build they want to without the pressure of being shoe-horned into typical PUG roles. Sublime operating as it does, by having a revolving door, welcoming all comers and partying with whomever is on at the time, will probably never complete any raid in the game unless a dedicated experienced group of folks decides to create a static group within it.

So on behalf of the Sublime, thanks for realizing our pipe dream. Maybe the devs (and other players) will take notice.

Thanks for the note and I do admire the service Sublime offers the DDO community and for providing the incentive for Legion to do something new. I would say though that Legion did NOT "rub a 4-man raid in the face of people". We chose to not publish this achievement, although I think it silly to not post things like this as it raises the bar for others and provides a worthy challenge. In any event, Memnir (not in Legion) caught wind and thought it a good idea to post in the new "Achievements" forum. Very nice of him. Not so nice that people get butt-hurt when hearing other people talk about their accomplishments.

[Renegade66]

Don't belittle Sublime or any other PD guild by doing a bunch of quests you've done 200 times, raising your characters the whole way, and then calling PD easy.

There aren't any quests we haven't done 200 times. As stated over and over, we didn't grind any quest beyond once on normal, hard and elite. We didn't have that many deaths. Probably less deaths than the number of raise scrolls we've pulled from chests. We didn't say PD was easy. We said getting to 14 on PD was easier than we expected. I haven't belittled Sublime. I've only commended them.

Your response reminds me of when I posted the Jellybean Barbarian build as being a good alternative to the cookie cutter, dwarven THF build. The self-proclaimed barbarian gurus came out to defend their position only to fall to the reality of the situation. I see you in the same boat. I don't know for sure, but maybe your PD achievements held some weight in the PD community. Now Legion Permadeath comes along and leap frogs your years of effort by such a huge margin that you realize you may never have that sense of PD accomplishment again. You can twist and manipulate in a futile attempt to belittle what we did. In the end though, you will look bad for whining and we will look bad for being braggart pricks. Why not instead, go do something noteworthy of your own and post in the achievements forum. I think you'll end up with a sincere congratulations from us. And, if the accomplishment has surpassed our own then we'll greatly welcome the raising of the bar as a new challenge for ourselves.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

This is not a rip on sublime they themselves admitted their biggest hurdle is getting a core group to play consistently together as we have.

I think, Parvo, that you have to look closer at this information, rather than trying to belittle Legions accomplishment.
And thats exactly what you're doing, belittling them.

I believe that if you have a core group of people, who are online consistently, running only with each other, thats a pretty powerful force. I think you're underestimating that Parvo. (I tried real hard not to use the phrase "play with each other", could ya tell?)

These guys are telling you they follow MV rules and the Sublime rules, yet its still not good enough. Why?

They're telling you they dont repeat quests, they are telling you they dont buy off the AH (something even Sublime allow), why cant you congratulate them? Id imagine as a fellow PD player you'd be one to see the awesome achievement in getting to 14 and then shortmanning a raid.

I guess not though.

Through all the information on this thread, and through all your posts you're looking like a jealous man, Parvo.

[Strings]

In parvo's defense, he has congratulated us on several occasions. He is correct by saying we all had a few rez scrolls that we purchased from the house J vendor, and we are now aware that is not allowed in his rule set.

[Scarsgaard]

Thought I'd go slumming and say GRATS!!!

I'm almost inspired enough to return... lol.. but dang if that aint freaking amazing... even on my best day I never got close to this kind of achievement.

[Jaywade]

ahh scar's is teasing us....so if you can post here you must still have a active account.......any chance seeing you around?

[Rayzorlew]

Thought I'd go slumming and say GRATS!!!

I'm almost inspired enough to return... lol.. but dang if that aint freaking amazing... even on my best day I never got close to this kind of achievement.

SCAR!!!
Wasup bro?

Anyway's, I'm a little slow, but I'm here now.......
Thanks Mem, you rock.
Actually alot of nice people came here:
GeneralDiomedes, I'm sure you know this by now but your guild was definetly our inspiration.
...but after reading this whole thread (from front to back just now) its easy to see why Sublime is looked up too, with members such as yourself.
Beherit Baphomar, thanks for having the ability to simply read what was written, I appreciate it.
Clay, thank's bro. we can always count on you.;)

:D



parvo.......your reeeeaaallly bitter, Kinda see why your not in Sublime anymore.
They kicked you out didn't they?
It's ok.......you have your own one-man PD guild now, with your own uber rules. ;)

[parvo]

I think it's a great thing that your achievement was posted. I'm not belittling the achievement and if it seems that way I appologize. The members have been nothing but forthright on the rules they used. Sublime rules, sans auction house. As far as I can tell, none of them are claiming to have used the Mortal Voyage rule set.

I am particularly interested in one recent comment. Although you haven't told us how many deaths you had, you pulled Raise scrolls approximately equivalent to the number of times you used them. Obviously that is very interesting and of particular importance to Mortal Voyage. We have yet to pull any raise scrolls and we have members who are in the level seven range. In fact, I've never pulled one even with my level ten Sublime character. At what level did you start pulling raise scrolls and was that prior to using any? Also, how many deaths did you have? Are we talking one or two here? One or two per character? Five per character? That question is not intended to insult. It's intended to demonstrate just how difficult PD play is. Even to the best players in the game. Although it was easier than you expected, I bet you can understand how hard it would be to do without any deaths. And with that understanding, you know not the RULES that Sublime and Mortal Voyage play by, but HOW many of them play.

[parvo]

...Why not instead, go do something noteworthy of your own and post in the achievements forum. I think you'll end up with a sincere congratulations from us. And, if the accomplishment has surpassed our own then we'll greatly welcome the raising of the bar as a new challenge for ourselves.

Have you ever congratulated anyone else's PD accomplishment?

[Drak]

Yes parvo, I at least have congratulated, I believe I did when the first L13 sublime was posted.

I dont think there were more than 6 deaths from L7-14, The scrolls pulled came from Gianthold quests, we did these to 150 argo favor (For the collapsed portable holes and 10 hp) Orchard tapestry runs (8 full runs netted us the slayer / explorer / 750 slayer XP's and 4 Helms, Minos legans) and I believe 1 dropped in either the forge or the titan itself.

Oh ans something I meant to correct last time, there was no deaths whatsoever in the forge, but the titans cannon did take our bard as a casualty once during the titan awakes itself. Sorry mem that it wasnt made clear to you before you posted, on hard we will get the no deaths whatsoever, lol

[Renegade66]

Drak's right. I've pulled at least 6 and only used 1 prior to pulling from chests and zero since then. I pulled 4 from my Crucible Hard then Elite runs. We didn't count deaths, because it didn't seem to be an issue when following the rules, but a combined 6 seems in the vacinity. I completely agree that doing it with zero deaths would be much, much harder. It would mean not doing crazy things like 3 manning Madstone on Hard (although I don't think we had anyone die on that run). Painfully slow and steady would be the way to go. I hope you guys make it.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

Please denote that the following behavior is not acceptable in the Achievements forum:

Poster: We did it!
Respondant: No you didn't
Poster: Yes we did!
Respondant: No you didn't
Poster: Yes we did!
Respondant: No you didn't
Poster: We did it better than you even
Respondant: No you didn't

That is not the purpose of the Achievements forum. We appreciate the civil discussion that avoids name calling, but belittling one another is not any more acceptable. Things seem to be going fine for quite a while in the discussion, but it seems it's starting to get a bit on the semantical argument side of things. Let's settle it down folks. Matters of taste are not for dispute.

[parvo]

Drak's right. I've pulled at least 6 and only used 1 prior to pulling from chests and zero since then. I pulled 4 from my Crucible Hard then Elite runs. We didn't count deaths, because it didn't seem to be an issue when following the rules, but a combined 6 seems in the vacinity. I completely agree that doing it with zero deaths would be much, much harder. It would mean not doing crazy things like 3 manning Madstone on Hard (although I don't think we had anyone die on that run). Painfully slow and steady would be the way to go. I hope you guys make it.

This is really all I was getting at. ~Six deaths is impressive, but how was I to know until you answered the question? A party of all raisers could die hundreds of times on the way to a raid and still claim it was PD. I'd suggest putting deaths and perhaps incaps in your character bio, as those make for some of the most interesting stories for others.

Slow is actually what a lot of PD'ers like because it's more like classic D&D.

Congratulations Legion. I hope to read more of your permadeath accomplishments.

[Strings]

We would like to do the dragon, but we need a 5th person for the levers / wisdom rune. Can we borrow a cleric? :D

[parvo]

We would like to do the dragon, but we need a 5th person for the levers / wisdom rune. Can we borrow a cleric? :D

I couldn't join a group of all raisers. It wouldn't be fun for me. If you start fresh with Mortal Voyage rules, Then we're talkin'. Even though I don't care much for the raise, I love playing Clerics. Go figure. However I love MV too much to dedicate anything more than one evening per week to something else. If you were to ask, I bet there would be Sublime who would join you. And since you are already using their rules, it would be an easy transition. There are some great players there who would make any group better and I've had discussion with some about a group dedicated specifically to higher level play. Good luck.

[Renegade66]

I couldn't join a group of all raisers.

He was kidding and heaven forbid you join a group of players that can rez. I can't imagine how dirty you would feel afterward. If you can't play with a poorly designed group then there's no since playing at all.

[hennebux]

Congratulations Legion on an amazing accomplishment...


if you can't play with a poorly designed group then there's no sense playing at all.

ROFL Ren can you read my thoughts...? I think this all the time when I pug :D

[Rayzorlew]

ROFL Ren can you read my thoughts...? I think this all the time when I pug :D

Hey, those can be funnest parties, just let me hit party chat one time on accident instead of vent, lol. :D

[Renegade66]

Hey, those can be funnest parties, just let me hit party chat one time on accident instead of vent, lol. :D

Or, type in party chat instead of tell or guild chat. You're reknown for that. My favorite though was when I sent you a tell abusing a newb. You wanted to forward it to Drak, but instead typed it in party chat and got ME busted. Classic Womp!

[Gratch]

Congrats on the Titaning. Elite Titan (prequest) is painful even with 14's... to say nothing of 14's with PD concerns and a small group. That should be ... fun.


Or, type in party chat instead of tell or guild chat. You're reknown for that. My favorite though was when I sent you a tell abusing a newb. You wanted to forward it to Drak, but instead typed it in party chat and got ME busted. Classic Womp!

I got into a long argument with someone who was sending tells for group invite... by accidently /r'ing him a pretty abusive response... which had been meant for a guildy that I had been conversing about "stuff". Sometimes when you tell someone "mt", they just won't believe you. I admit I've also done something like this on purpose:

/p Wow, this guy has fallen in Von2 6 times causing restarts, maybe he should just learn to stay in the center if character control is beyond his capability.
/p Oops... mt.

So the titan crystals... easily destroyed and repicked up. Is there any requirement for grabbing crystals to even out the total crystals or only the limits of 3 yellow/red and 6 purple/green/blue. I thought you had to alternate grabs just based on whether one or both sides are lit. But based on the explanation for a 4-person completion... I'm guessing there's only a total available limit. And what you can grab doesn't change based on party size.

[Renegade66]

So the titan crystals... easily destroyed and repicked up. Is there any requirement for grabbing crystals to even out the total crystals or only the limits of 3 yellow/red and 6 purple/green/blue. I thought you had to alternate grabs just based on whether one or both sides are lit. But based on the explanation for a 4-person completion... I'm guessing there's only a total available limit. And what you can grab doesn't change based on party size.

There are only so many of each colored crystal at each crystal station. The first station has 6 green and 6 purple (makes sense for a 12 man raid). If you go Green the next station has 3 Yellow and 3 Blue (again makes sense for the 6 that went Green). If you go purple the next station has 3 Red and 3 Blue.

You only need 1 of a given color to open the barrier, but you need to do it in order. Red is first then purple, so going purple side first then red makes sense. Once red and purple barriers are down, you no longer need those crystals. You destroy them because you cannot carry two crystals of certain combinations.

You can't carry at the same time a:
green and purple
yellow and blue
red and blue

[Rayzorlew]

Or, type in party chat instead of tell or guild chat. You're reknown for that. My favorite though was when I sent you a tell abusing a newb. You wanted to forward it to Drak, but instead typed it in party chat and got ME busted. Classic Womp!

Lol, that was sooo funny, yet I felt so bad.
The funniest part was you were just like.........oh well, he does suck.

[parvo]

...parvo.......your reeeeaaallly bitter, Kinda see why your not in Sublime anymore.
They kicked you out didn't they?
It's ok.......you have your own one-man PD guild now, with your own uber rules. ;)

Thanks for giving me a chance to address. I still have characters in Sublime. I still play one of them and I'm freindly with the the Zorn and Tous two of the real pioneers in DDO PD play and leaders of Sublime and Extreme Explorers. I'm grateful to both of them for inviting me to a playstyle that kept me interested in DDO. I'm particularly thankful for Zorn who helped me get Mortal Voyage started. It's something I allways wanted to do. Create a guild of players who enjoyed a DDO challenge in the spirit of classic paper and pencil campaigns. Thankfully there are a lot of players who share that vision and Mortal Voyage has quickly grown into the most active PD guild in DDO. When a new member joins, I encourage them to understand the rules but just as important the spirit behind them. We don't consider ourselves uber. Just playing the game in a challenging way and hopefully progressing our characters along the way. Perhaps some members of Legion would like to join us as we explore Stormreach in a manner that would make Gary Gygax proud.

[Rayzorlew]

Thanks for giving me a chance to address. I still have characters in Sublime. I still play one of them and I'm freindly with the the Zorn and Tous two of the real pioneers in DDO PD play and leaders of Sublime and Extreme Explorers. I'm grateful to both of them for inviting me to a playstyle that kept me interested in DDO. I'm particularly thankful for Zorn who helped me get Mortal Voyage started. It's something I allways wanted to do. Create a guild of players who enjoyed a DDO challenge in the spirit of classic paper and pencil campaigns. Thankfully there are a lot of players who share that vision and Mortal Voyage has quickly grown into the most active PD guild in DDO. When a new member joins, I encourage them to understand the rules but just as important the spirit behind them. We don't consider ourselves uber. Just playing the game in a challenging way and hopefully progressing our characters along the way. Perhaps some members of Legion would like to join us as we explore Stormreach in a manner that would make Gary Gygax proud.

What do you want Parvo?
You have single handedly destroyed this thread with your stalker like tactics.
No matter how we continue to reason with you, you continue to go on and on.
So please listen up:
Why would we EVER come and join your guild?
What have you ever accomplished?
Except, showing everyone that has read this thread how disrespectful you can be.
We've hit 14 with 4 characters, and ran the Titan 4 man all while using Sublime rules.
So if you continue to have a problem I suggest you talk to the leader of Sublime, you did say you were in that guild.
Actually, I would be surprised if anyone joins you after reading this thread.
Just reread this thread yourself and you will see this is not how a guild leader acts.
Go ahead we will wait..........................
Crazy huh?
Went a little "Chris Crocker” on us, kind of stalker/trollish/whiny.
Anyways, why don't you just do us all a favor and stop hijacking our thread.;)

You can think what you want about "LEGION," but you'll never find us in someone else's achievement thread unless it's to say congrats. :D

[Renegade66]

No kidding. I felt like standing up and saluting the flag when reading that dribble. zzz...zzz...zzz

[Rilen]

Unbelievable.

Sorry .. still shaking my head here - this thread couldnt make it past *one single page* before
someone had to drop in to pee on it.

Legion fellas - hat's off to you again - really sweet accomplishment. Definately respect the
discipline & skill it takes to pull this off.

And on a side note - what a shame - a few weeks back, you guys got flack for posting
that one of your group hit Level 14. I believe the negative consensus was that you were
"grats'ing yourselves". I remember thinking at the time "Who cares who made the post", the
point was your toons made 14 under a tight and commonly accepted PD ruleset.

In this thread .. Memnir, a 3rd party from a different guild, attempts to post a well-deserved grats and
someone *still* goes out of their way to try and mess with it. Pathetic really.

Anyway, congrats guys. Keep the posts coming - I enjoy seeing how far folks can push it
when they try. Gives me a little inspiration now and again.

-Rilen

[parvo]

I did go back and re-read this thread. There are some things I could have said differently. For that I appologize. I look foward to reading more Legion PD accomplishments.

[deepshadow]

Congrats on the accomplishment!