Multi-Class Spellcasters

[Brunnor]

Greetings All,
I was just looking through some of the PnP books and thought I might mention the feat Practiced Spellcaster. I tried playing a Cleric Sorcerer a while back, but I was hampered by the lack of caster level limits. I was wondering how hard it would be to add this feat? I think it would give all of us 'solo' players and 'what if I..." type players a great deal of new stuff to play with :)

[Baltire]

Where did you find this feat. I can't sem to find it in the 3.5 core rule book. If it's not in the core rule book could you post the feat, I'd like to see what it does, sounds interesting.

[Brunnor]

Its from Complete Arcane. I increases your caster level by 4 for a chosen class. You cannot go over your HD though. For example a Sor 3/Cleric 5 could choose the feat for the Sorcerer class and his effective caster level for that class would be 7.

[Mad_Bombardier]

nvm

[Baltire]

nvm

So my thought for a cleric 11/wizzard 3 wouldn't bring it up to a caster lvl 7 for the wizzard spells then ehhh???

Well that's no good then :) :) :)

lol, you must have edited while i was posting, cause that didnt say nvm a second ago :)

[Mad_Bombardier]

So my thought for a cleric 11/wizzard 3 wouldn't bring it up to a caster lvl 7 for the wizzard spells then ehhh???I looked it up and found myself mistaken. Yes, you'd be caster L7 for Wizard. You could even take the feat a second time and be caster L14 for Cleric. :)

P.S. WotC has the feat listed here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2

[MysticTheurge]

Practiced Spellcaster is pretty much must-have for multiclassed spellcasters in D&D. It's shame we don't have it yet in DDO.

For the record, it only increases your caster level. It doesn't give you more SPs, more spell slots, higher level spells, or anything else. All it does is make it like you were (up to) 4 levels higher for the purposes of determine the variable effects of your spells.

[HeroGuild]

They absolutely should add this feat in then. I think you should be "allowed" to create a level 7/7 wiz/cleric and be able to contribute in a lvl 14 party. Personally I don't see why you can't be allowed to have a lvl 14 for caster lvl , spell penetration, and saves, while keeping the lvl 7 dice effects like damage. I would be just fine casting 7d5 dice fireballs if they had a chance to hit as if i were a lvl 14 caster.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

They absolutely should add this feat in then. I think you should be "allowed" to create a level 7/7 wiz/cleric and be able to contribute in a lvl 14 party. Personally I don't see why you can't be allowed to have a lvl 14 for caster lvl , spell penetration, and saves, while keeping the lvl 7 dice effects like damage. I would be just fine casting 7d5 dice fireballs if they had a chance to hit as if i were a lvl 14 caster.

Well, actually, with your example, you'd have all the spells and spell points of a level 7 cleric and a level 7 wizard combined. Your damage dice, duration, and caster level for overcoming SR, assuming you took practiced spellcaster twice (once for each class, the maximum) would be as a level 11 (7+4) caster.
This feat, while useful in that situation, is also handy for making something like a cleric 10 / paladin 4 as a battlecleric, and keeping full duration and damage on spells (albeit less sp and spell slots).

[Mark_G]

If any feat is a "must have" for a particular character type (short of, of course, prerequisite feats), then that feat (imho) is probably overpowered. I understand the desire to have the 7/7 wizard/cleric be more useful on high end content. However, a 7/7 wizard/cleric probably shouldn't be that helpful on high end content. I'm not saying it would be impossible to be helpful...just the build, generally, doesn't lend itself to that. I'm sure that toon would be awesome at doing other things though!

Here is one vote against adding practiced spellcaster to DDO.

[honkuimushi]

They absolutely should add this feat in then. I think you should be "allowed" to create a level 7/7 wiz/cleric and be able to contribute in a lvl 14 party. Personally I don't see why you can't be allowed to have a lvl 14 for caster lvl , spell penetration, and saves, while keeping the lvl 7 dice effects like damage. I would be just fine casting 7d5 dice fireballs if they had a chance to hit as if i were a lvl 14 caster.

A 7/ 7 really wouldn't be that usefull even with Practiced Spellcaster. You would still only have level four spells, but your spells would have the durations and numbers(damage, healing, etc.) of a level 11 caster. What you want is the Mystic Theurge Prestige class. That requires 2nd level spells in both arcane and devine classes and then allows you in increase caster level and spell advancement for 10 levels. So at level 14 you could be a Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 8. You would have the casting ability of an 11th level Wizard and a 11th level Cleric. In exchange, you get a d4 hit die and your BAB and saves use the wizard advancement(i.e. low BAB, only Will for a strong save) and you do not gain any bonus feats. If you took Practiced Spellcaster you could increase your caster level, but not spells, to level 14 in one class, both classes if you took it twice. A popular build is Cleric 3/ Wizard 7/ Mystic Theurge 10. That gives you level 9 wizard spells and level 7 Cleric spells. Some people prefer cleric and will switch the Cleric and Wizard levels.

Practiced Spellcaster works best in the case of splashes. It allows splashing a caster class to be somewhat effective. And it allows casters to splash a separate class without having their spells loose too much power. While some people will mention that if everyone takes it, it's broken as Mark G said. I disagree strongly. First of all, most characters will not take it. It only benefits multiclassed casters. There are many people who wouldn't even consider multiclassing a caster. Other that warforged, there aren't too many caster splashes either. But yes, for a multiclassed caster, Practised Spellcaster is a must have feet. But that's not because the feat is all that strong, it's because 3.0 broke multiclassed casters. Caster level and spells per level are about the only things that have no synergy when multiclassing. BAB, saves, skill points all increase no matter what class you take. Multiclassing can even increase them. But caster levels and spells do not increase when you take any other base class. You need certain prestige classes to do that. Those prestige classes and Practiced Spellcaster are best thought of as a patch.

I for one have been eagerly awaiting Practiced Spellcaster for a long time. (P.S. It's also in Complete Divine.)

[MysticTheurge]

If any feat is a "must have" for a particular character type (short of, of course, prerequisite feats), then that feat (imho) is probably overpowered.

This is slightly complicated by the fact that being a multiclass spellcaster strongly kneecaps your character in terms of power.

Even with practiced spellcaster, a Wizard 10/Whatever-else 4 doesn't, for instance, have access to 6th or 7th level spells. Even if their 1st-5th level spells are being cast at a caster level of 14, they're still going to be significantly behind a Wizard 14 in terms of power, especially since they had to spend an extra feat to even get the caster level of 14.

While I generally agree with you in theory, in practice Practiced Spellcaster is a very well-balanced feat.

[Mad_Bombardier]

While I generally agree with you in theory, in practice Practiced Spellcaster is a very well-balanced feat.Especially considering it costs a feat for each spell casting slot you want to increase, further depowering the caster (taking a feat from mental toughness, metamagics, spell foci, penetration).

In DDO, 10Wiz/4xxx means with practiced spellcaster can have higher caster level for checks and spell effects, higher damage dice, and longer duration. But, you are still limited by spell levels, slots, and SP of the lower caster level. The price for multiclassing is still high, but added duration and higher damage/effects allow you to function in the game.

[Mercules]

A 7/ 7 really wouldn't be that usefull even with Practiced Spellcaster. You would still only have level four spells...

Level 2 spells are highly useful. There are a ton of good low level utility spells that are not often used because people wish specific spells for those slots. Having the best of the level 1-3 spells from both the Cleric and Arcane lists would be kinda nice. I would miss some of the higher spells, but the lower ones have a lot of use.

[honkuimushi]

Oh, I agree that there are a lot of useful spells in the lower levels, especially the buffs, but you need something to synergise with those spells. For example, I'm testing a Warforged buil that would be Ranger 12/ Fighter 4 / Wizard 4. I get healing, wand enhancements, shield, blur, false life, and a bunch of other spells to make me more surviveable. I can also use flame arrow wands. I also get extend for free. But shield and blur last for 4 minutes, 8 if extended. It would be hard to keep them up in most later quests. Practiced Spellcaster would increase that to 8 minutes, 16 if extended. I am primarily a ranged or TWF combatant. It would only rarely use combat spells. Practiced spellcaster would make it so that damage spells would ocassionally be a good option (Think STK, SC, the original vamp, etc.)

But what if you were a 6/6 Sorcerer/ Cleric? If the group had a caster and a Cleric, you would be very useful for additional healling, some CC, and an occasional damage spell. But you really couldn't fill either role. Practiced Spellcaster would make your damage spells more effective, but most blasters have trouble in this game. Think of the popular spells that you don't have that a Pure , or nearly so, caster of your level has. Cleric: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Restoration, Raise Dead, Mass Cures, Blade Barrier, Cometfall, Heal, Heroes Feast. Sorcerer: Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Charm Monster, Wall of Fire, PK, Dismissal, Cloudkill, Teleport, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Greater Heroism, Chain Lightening, Disintegrate, and Flesh to stone. That's a lot to give up and it makes me wonder what this character will be doing most of the time.

[GlassCannon]

Are wonderful things.

I vote yea on this to expand the horizons of creativity.