Why stay pure Ranger beyond level 12?

[Talakus]

Hello all I need your input on this. I have a Ranger 11/1 wizzy Warforged, my dex and strength are balance around (24-26).
I'm about to be level 13 and I'm wondering what are the advantages to stay Ranger Class, and If I should switch class?
If I switch class which one shouls I take?
Thank you in advance for your answers!
:)

[Benjai]

Favored Enemy at 15, and possibility of important enhancments at 15-16 are the two main reasons I think.

[Taerdra]

Forthcoming Superior TWF if you're a STR based build or would rather get the feat for free.

[CSFurious]

the only reason to not stay ranger at this point would be to take levels of figher for additional hitpoints, bonus combat feats, & fighter enhancements

you sort of decided the future of your build when you took that level of wizard

[Talakus]

Level 13-14 only gives one more spell, more spells points and more hit points right?
No new feats?

[rpasell]

Level 13-14 only gives one more spell, more spells points and more hit points right?
No new feats?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Level 12 = +5 Bark, 30 pt Resists.

[Zenako]

11th level caster for the 30 point resists, but I think you do need 12th level for the Barks

[Mad_Bombardier]

Correct,

11Ranger = Combat Style Mastery feats and 30pt Resists
12Ranger = +5 Barkskin
13Ranger = Favored Damage IV enhance
14Ranger = +1 L1 spell, +1 L4 spell
15Ranger = +8 total favored enemy damage and new FE, +1 L4 spell (based on current progression)

[rpasell]

Correct,

11Ranger = Combat Style Mastery feats and 30pt Resists
12Ranger = +5 Barkskin
13Ranger = Favored Damage IV enhance
14Ranger = +1 L1 spell
15Ranger = +8 total favored enemy damage and new FE

Level 14 is also your first level 4 spell, and FoM comes in handy :)

[MysticRhythms]

And there are supposedly goign to be some enhancements similar to the Rogue "Way of" enhancement line.

Though they might not require Ranger levels beyond 12, I wouldn't want to take my chances.

[5footStep]

Level 13-14 only gives one more spell, more spells points and more hit points right?
No new feats?

but level 16 is just around the corner!

[Cowdenicus]

And there are supposedly goign to be some enhancements similar to the Rogue "Way of" enhancement line.

Though they might not require Ranger levels beyond 12, I wouldn't want to take my chances.

especially if multiple tiers of them come out in the future.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Level 14 is also your first level 4 spell, and FoM comes in handy :)hehe, knew I was forgetting something. :)

[WeiQuinn]

Forthcoming Superior TWF if you're a STR based build or would rather get the feat for free.

Ok, so I have a Strength based Ranger that will be taking the Tempest enhancement. Are you saying that Ranger will get Superior Two Weapon Fighting as a class feat at Ranger 16? I know I won't have the Dexterity to take it as a feat at level 15.

[Yaga_Nub]

Ok, so I have a Strength based Ranger that will be taking the Tempest enhancement. Are you saying that Ranger will get Superior Two Weapon Fighting as a class feat at Ranger 16? I know I won't have the Dexterity to take it as a feat at level 15.

Most likely it will not be given for free. You will need to meet the dex requirement to get it.

[Taerdra]

Ok, so I have a Strength based Ranger that will be taking the Tempest enhancement. Are you saying that Ranger will get Superior Two Weapon Fighting as a class feat at Ranger 16? I know I won't have the Dexterity to take it as a feat at level 15.

While I hate to disagree with Yaga, everything I've read indicated that Rangers would get the feat for free with no DEX requirement just like the other TWF feats. I think the only question is whether it comes at 15 or 16.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

While I hate to disagree with Yaga, everything I've read indicated that Rangers would get the feat for free with no DEX requirement just like the other TWF feats. I think the only question is whether it comes at 15 or 16.

No offense, but I'd have to see where you are reading this from. It's not in PNP at all, and although they have given us two feat trees for free(ranged and twf), they've still been consistent in handing them out at the same pnp levels.

I'd be very happy if they did hand them out for free, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Taerdra]

That's why I was trying to say "indicated"... I don't think there was any definitive direction either way. Precedent would dictate that they give it out for free for Ranger 15/16/whatever, but the devs don't have to hold themselves to that. I don't see any reason as to think that they would require DEX when they haven't before should they give it as a class feat.

The feat isn't in PnP as you said and the last extra attack happens at 16 in PnP, while 15 seems to be when in DDO, ... so there's nothing definite other than it will be in. I've seen folks pointing to notes that "indicate" 15, but 16 makes more sense.

To the OP's question, the only reasons to stay in Ranger past 12 is this possible feat -- which possibly will be given to Rangers as class feat--, an extra Favored Enemy and added bonus, possible enhancements, and FoM.

[Cowdenicus]

While I hate to disagree with Yaga, everything I've read indicated that Rangers would get the feat for free with no DEX requirement just like the other TWF feats. I think the only question is whether it comes at 15 or 16.

I can tell you you are wrong, and you would take my word for it, or I could prove it and get slapped around again from Turbine.

[CSFurious]

rangers have always gotten 2-weapon feats for free & without meeting the dex-requirements

why would Turbine suddenly decide to make rangers have to use a feat to take a 2-weapon feat & have a minimum dex-requirement? where i come from that would be called being dumb

it will not affect my ranger/fighter at all as her base-dex is high

but, i feel bad for the str-based rangers if Turbine chooses to make a poor decision with the implementation of this proposed feat

[Taerdra]

I can tell you you are wrong, and you would take my word for it, or I could prove it and get slapped around again from Turbine.

I'm happy to be wrong... :D and don't want to see you get slapped...

[ShadowFox1978]

If rangers don't get it as a granted feat at 16, then we won't get it untils level 18. I believe one pre-req is BaB 16.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

rangers have always gotten 2-weapon feats for free & without meeting the dex-requirements
Correct, but as their class-granted combat style feats. They get at levels 2, 6, and 11. Combat style, improved combat style, and combat style mastery. In pnp, rangers have to choose between archery feats and twf feats... But DDO has granted them both styles for reasons they really haven't expanded on. I haven't seen any signs that they've deviated from the class requirements in too many other ways, discounting spellcasting.

why would Turbine suddenly decide to make rangers have to use a feat to take a 2-weapon feat & have a minimum dex-requirement? where i come from that would be called being dumb
Again, I'll be happy if they do it this way. But I wouldn't call it dumb necessarily. I'd call it matching the D&D requirements.

I'd actually be inclined to give the feat req's a BAB requirement, OR a certain number of ranger levels to qualify for. Something similar to weapon spec. for fighters.

it will not affect my ranger/fighter at all as her base-dex is high
It would affect a couple of my rangers, but the other ones would be fine. It might be one of those balancing things for the dex based vs str based. Strength based does more damage per hit... Dex based can get more attacks.

but, i feel bad for the str-based rangers if Turbine chooses to make a poor decision with the implementation of this proposed feat

My thoughts in red... They're not horribly different from last time.

I just want to make sure people understand that there have been no dev posts anywhere, saying rangers will get the feats for free. There also haven't been any posts saying they won't. All talk about rangers getting them for free has been(so far) pure speculation by the player base, and actually isn't supported by anything the core ruleset has listed.

[Aesop]

I can tell you you are wrong, and you would take my word for it, or I could prove it and get slapped around again from Turbine.

Would it make you feel better if I slepped you around? I've got a whip and a ... certain outfit just for the occassion....

oh and if you don't stay Ranger... paladin is always nice for 3 levels :D


Aesop

[Cowdenicus]

If rangers don't get it as a granted feat at 16, then we won't get it untils level 18. I believe one pre-req is BaB 16.

No the pre req is not bab 16.

[Cowdenicus]

My thoughts in red... They're not horribly different from last time.

I just want to make sure people understand that there have been no dev posts anywhere, saying rangers will get the feats for free. There also haven't been any posts saying they won't. All talk about rangers getting them for free has been(so far) pure speculation by the player base, and actually isn't supported by anything the core ruleset has listed.

Actuallly there has been communication from the developers, it just cant be reposted without their permission.

[Kerr]

My thoughts in red... They're not horribly different from last time.

I just want to make sure people understand that there have been no dev posts anywhere, saying rangers will get the feats for free. There also haven't been any posts saying they won't. All talk about rangers getting them for free has been(so far) pure speculation by the player base, and actually isn't supported by anything the core ruleset has listed.

I think they should absolutely make a FREE Ranger Feat at level 15 or 16. Also allow it as a Feat anyone can get if they purchase the Feats necessary for it and have stat requirements. It should be a benefit for remaining a pure class character, as they should always be significantly superior in their field than multi classed characters that have several fields of study.

[Elleron]

I have built a str-ranged ranger who is on the shelf unit mod 6. Though he does have a dex of 22, so I should be alright either way.

But if normally for the lower beings (non-rangers):
2-weapon fighter - dex 15
Improved -17
Greater -19
Superior -21?

21 shouldn't be that hard to get to. Even if you started @12 dex- +3 tome(i know, i know) +6 item = 21

Many others way to get there, but if you are already 14th level and now you just need an item and a tome and be done with it.

[ShadowFox1978]

I have built a str-ranged ranger who is on the shelf unit mod 6. Though he does have a dex of 22, so I should be alright either way.

But if normally for the lower beings (non-rangers):
2-weapon fighter - dex 15
Improved -17
Greater -19
Superior -21?

21 shouldn't be that hard to get to. Even if you started @12 dex- +3 tome(i know, i know) +6 item = 21

Many others way to get there, but if you are already 14th level and now you just need an item and a tome and be done with it.

Items don't count. Neither do Enhancements. Str rangers don't put level points in dex. So unless a Str ranger starts with dex 18 (unlikely) and eats a +3 tome he is not going to get to 21 dex. I am not advocating for or against it being class granted. I am saying Turbine created the expectation of it being class granted by how they have handled combat-styles to this point.

Cow, if BaB 16 is not a prereq, I stand corrected. Thank you.

[Cowdenicus]

Items don't count. Neither do Enhancements. Str rangers don't put level points in dex. So unless a Str ranger starts with dex 18 (unlikely) and eats a +3 tome he is not going to get to 21 dex. I am not advocating for or against it being class granted. I am saying Turbine created the expectation of it being class granted by how they have handled combat-styles to this point.

Cow, if BaB 16 is not a prereq, I stand corrected. Thank you.

From what I have heard through the grape vine, it is BaB 15 and not free for rangers (probably a good reason to have it at 15.)

[Cowdenicus]

I think they should absolutely make a FREE Ranger Feat at level 15 or 16. Also allow it as a Feat anyone can get if they purchase the Feats necessary for it and have stat requirements. It should be a benefit for remaining a pure class character, as they should always be significantly superior in their field than multi classed characters that have several fields of study.

There is no basis in the PHB for rangers to get it for free period. The only justification I could see to asking the developers to give STWF (or a bow feat) for free at 15 is IF they do not put Hide in Plain sight in the game (an auto ability granted at 17 that will be a pain for the devs to code)

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I think they should absolutely make a FREE Ranger Feat at level 15 or 16. Also allow it as a Feat anyone can get if they purchase the Feats necessary for it and have stat requirements. It should be a benefit for remaining a pure class character, as they should always be significantly superior in their field than multi classed characters that have several fields of study.

I'm afraid I don't really agree with this one.

Not because I don't want my rangers to get it for free, but because I don't agree with the "benefit for remaining a pure class " line of reasoning. Branching things out and being able to multiclass to pick up various class features is one of the things I like the most about the current edition of D&D rules. It's something that really adds to the gaming system, in my opinion. Your benefit for remaining pure class are your class features.

Here's the latest and greatest, from a little bit ago for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.
(Not necessarily for Kerr... I think I already saw him posting in that thread)


Greetings,

As currently implemented, the feat requires DEX 19, BAB 15, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting. I will follow up if any subsequent changes happen to it before we push module 6 out.

Best regards,

Codog

[Taerdra]

There is no basis in the PHB for rangers to get it for free period. The only justification I could see to asking the developers to give STWF (or a bow feat) for free at 15 is IF they do not put Hide in Plain sight in the game (an auto ability granted at 17 that will be a pain for the devs to code)

Not sure how they will work HiPS... in SRD, it is only suppose to work in "natural terrain" for the Ranger version. If implemented by the book, the ability will be neglible.

I disagree on your justification point: if you implement something along the weapon style for rangers that is not in the core set and a ranger has access to, is even suppose to be a "master" of, that weapon style -- why shouldn't the ranger also gain access to this feat in the same way he/she gained access to the others? I don't see why as a master of TWF -- even such that he/she can do so without meeting prereqs -- the ranger shouldn't get the feat. NOTE: I don't mind either way, I don't have a STR-based ranger.

[barecm]

I have never found a compelling reason to stay pure ranger. However, I would not recommend taking more than 1 lvl of anything elase. The two common splashes are 1 lvl fighter or rogue. 1 lvl fighter gives you the extra feat, access to better shields and armor ect... 1 lvl rogue works well to be able to pick locks and disarm traps at a high level. Either way, staying pure ranger (at this point) only gets you 1 4th lvl spell, usually FoM which can be obtained from you local cleric, a pair of Kundarak's boots or the helm from the Titan. In any case, I would not change the splash for 1 spell. Once the lvl cap raises, maybe there will be something more compelling... but for now, I say splash a level in.

[BUpcott]

I have built a str-ranged ranger who is on the shelf unit mod 6. Though he does have a dex of 22, so I should be alright either way.

But if normally for the lower beings (non-rangers):
2-weapon fighter - dex 15
Improved -17
Greater -19
Superior -21?

21 shouldn't be that hard to get to. Even if you started @12 dex- +3 tome(i know, i know) +6 item = 21

Many others way to get there, but if you are already 14th level and now you just need an item and a tome and be done with it.

Heads up its, for DDO its:
TWF - dex 15
Improved -17
Greater -17
Superior - seems it will most likely be 19


If rangers don't get it as a granted feat at 16, then we won't get it untils level 18. I believe one pre-req is BaB 16.

Since it's likely the Dex will be lowered I think it would be likely the BaB is dropped to 15 as well.



Level 13-14 only gives one more spell, more spells points and more hit points right?
No new feats?but level 16 is just around the corner!

Feats are at level 15 ;)

[Yaga_Nub]

There is no basis in the PHB for rangers to get it for free period. The only justification I could see to asking the developers to give STWF (or a bow feat) for free at 15 is IF they do not put Hide in Plain sight in the game (an auto ability granted at 17 that will be a pain for the devs to code)

Actually HiPS is already coded in the game. The Beksera (the evil outsider lions) use this ability.

They can't be detected by a spot check (that I can tell and I have 35 spot on a character) or see invisibility.

[MysticRhythms]

Isn't it far more likely that the "next chain of two weapon fighting" becomes something like a Prestige Enhancement ... say "Way of the Tempest?"

In which case it's likely to be a ranger enhancement and not a feat.

[Gol]

Well, Codog just posted that Rangers will NOT be getting Superior TWF as a bonus feat. That pretty much kills any incentive to stick with Ranger in the long haul. Good opt-out points will be 12 and 15 I think. I'm prolly not going past 12 at this point.

[Benjai]

Well, besides any unknown enchantments (Ranger Dex IV anyone?), don't forget level 15 is another favored enemy, which is starting to get very useful. Thats like 8 bonus damage plus enhancements, and even cooler is favored defense, so if you pick your favored enemies wisely it can be a huge boost to your AC in key situations. As is Evil Outsiders, Giants, and Undead covers alot of bases, so that 4th slot can be sort of interchangeable, depending on what new quests bring. Level 16 does seem pretty weak though atm, but we'll see.

[jmonty]

Heads up its, for DDO its:
TWF - dex 15
Improved -17
Greater -17



i just got greater twf at dex 16. :confused:

[BUpcott]

i just got greater twf at dex 16. :confused:

Not as a non ranger you didn't. Rangers do however get it for free, so if you are a ranger that would explain it.

[Ghoste]

you sort of decided the future of your build when you took that level of wizard
Hmm...I thought it was when he decided to take those 13 levels of ranger...whatever, half full/half empty...

[jmonty]

Not as a non ranger you didn't. Rangers do however get it for free, so if you are a ranger that would explain it.

ah i see. i didn't read that right.

[CSFurious]

i do not believe taking the level of wizard was a wise decision in the first place, you would make it a horrible decision by taking additional levels of wizard

therefore, his only choice is to continue to take levels of ranger or take approx. 2 to 4 levels of fighter for hitpoints, bonus combat feats & fighter enhancements

the question of whether wf should be rangers is a completely different discussion, but i think you can figure out my opinion


Hmm...I thought it was when he decided to take those 13 levels of ranger...whatever, half full/half empty...

[MysticRhythms]

i do not believe taking the level of wizard was a wise decision in the first place

Why? There are some very handy first level wizard spells for a robe-wearing ranger to have. A TWF fighting ranger can make use of Mage Armor and Shield quite well. He gets the Extend Spell feat for fee which helps all of his ranger buffs and both of those wizard spells. He improves his will save and gets access to arcane wand usage.

I like the splash. My pure ranger is always hunting down clickies of Shield and Mage Armor.

[Ikuryo]

I'm sure he splashed in the wizard level to get access to arcane wands so he could repair his WF butt without having to lean on or lend wands to the casters in the group. I often see complaints about arcanes thinking that wands are gifts when they were supposed to be used for that adventure and then returned. Oh and no one probably thought of the fact that he can use wands of Flame Arrow himself to increase his dmg. Looking ahead most of the bonuses to ranger have been mentioned already. The only other one I can think of is a 4th arrow from many shot when you hit ranger 16. I could see splashing in a couple levels of Paladin to get the save bonuses but a WF has an abysmal starting CHA so you are not likely to get much from divine grace and you are already immune to disease. Unless you really want the LoH for some reason.

[CSFurious]

no need to use repair wands

wf do not wear robes:eek:; also, i would not believe that this build is that dexterous in the first place so the ac is probably 40 tops which is going to get hit on end-game elite content, casting shield & mage armor on yourself is not going to help out that much unless you can get over 50 at end-game, and many would say that is low

i fail to understand how taking a level of wizard makes your will saves better

extend makes sense, but most rangers have enough mana to give everyone 10 or more minutes of bark, & maybe a resist or two, do you really need 20 minutes between shrines? every group i am in is constantly hasted & since we have all memorized the quests most ranger buffs last without extend

& also to the robe-wearing rangers, but on some mithral bp, mummy wraps, or fearsome leather & start acting tough, you **** sissies! my ranger/fighter has 32 dex & will never wear a robe because it looks silly

p.s. most good rangers are not worried about flame arrow because currently when compared to melee combat, ranged fighting is a waste of a ranger's time


Why? There are some very handy first level wizard spells for a robe-wearing ranger to have. A TWF fighting ranger can make use of Mage Armor and Shield quite well. He gets the Extend Spell feat for fee which helps all of his ranger buffs and both of those wizard spells. He improves his will save and gets access to arcane wand usage.

I like the splash. My pure ranger is always hunting down clickies of Shield and Mage Armor.

[Zenako]

extend makes sense, but most rangers have enough mana to give everyone 10 or more minutes of bark, & maybe a resist or two, do you really need 20 minutes between shrines? every group i am in is constantly hasted & since we have all memorized the quests most ranger buffs last without extend

& also to the robe-wearing rangers, but on some mithral bp, mummy wraps, or fearsome leather & start acting tough, you **** sissies! my ranger/fighter has 32 dex & will never wear a robe because it looks silly

p.s. most good rangers are not worried about flame arrow because currently when compared to melee combat, ranged fighting is a waste of a ranger's time

Fully agree on Extend being of marginal use for Rangers (and Palys too). Umm, lets see, lets double the Cost for resists and make them last twice as long. Absolutly no savings. Lets double the time for Jump for double the cost. Duh. Perhaps for Barkskin it makes a little sense, but as mentioned, how many times are you going that long before people are reshrining anyway.

As for robes, kinda agree. My Dex Ranger likes his Silken Mail. It has a nice look, and the other boosts come in handy. (I also have some +4Mith Breastplate and Mummy Wraps, but the Mummy wraps look, how shall I say this...UGHLY!)

[MysticRhythms]

no need to use repair wands
Repair Wands heal more.


wf do not wear robes:eek:;
They also don't always wear armor. Being able to use Mage Armor can free up some interesting Docent choices. Mage Armor is still a valid choice for non-wf Rangers. It's also jsut ONE of the first level spell options. I could have said Protection/Evil or Obscuring Mist or Feather Fall or even Detect Secret Doors.


also, i would not believe that this build is that dexterous in the first place so the ac is probably 40 tops which is going to get hit on end-game elite content
There is more to the game than Elite end-game content. More AC is always better than less, regardless. Shield has other uses aka "preventing Magic Missile damage." And there are still other choices for first level spells.


i fail to understand how taking a level of wizard makes your will saves better
Wizard level 1 gives +2 to Will saves since Will is a Wizard's best save category. It's a Ranger's worst. You ahve to take 6 ranger levels to improve your Will save to a base of +2, for example.


extend makes sense, but most rangers have enough mana to give everyone 10 or more minutes of bark, & maybe a resist or two, do you really need 20 minutes between shrines? every group i am in is constantly hasted & since we have all memorized the quests most ranger buffs last without extend
Then take another metamagic like Quicken. Many times a PUG group DOES take that much time between shrines. For those who do use Shield or Mage Armor or any of the 1st level wizard spells, having Extend WILL be useful even in a shrine-heavy environment.


my ranger/fighter has 32 dex & will never wear a robe because it looks silly
OK, but some of the best enhancements/clickies come on Robes and they can be hot-swapped like Docents.


most good rangers are not worried about flame arrow because currently when compared to melee combat, ranged fighting is a waste of a ranger's time
I think ranged combat gets bad perception because of everyone's desire to do a quest in record time. The ability to deal damage at range while minimizing damage received is valuable to patient groups. Regardless, the ability to pile on damage via Flame Arrow when you really do need to deal damage at Ranged is worth the cost.

[CSFurious]

do you seriously think a reason for the level of wizard is detect secret doors or obscuring mist? i can count the number of quests that i am attacked with mm's on probably less than 10 fingers

the only vaild reason is the access to the arcane wands

rangers do not need a metamagic feat, please, quicken, that is just plain silly

as to ranged combat, there are 2 quests in the current game, i pull out a bow, stormreaver & demon queen pre-raid & raid

as to will saves, i thought rangers were supposed to be wise to begin with, & if you take luck of heroes all saves go up by +1

anyway, to all of the wf ranger/wizards in stormreach (probably 5 on each server), i wish you the best of luck


Repair Wands heal more.


They also don't always wear armor. Being able to use Mage Armor can free up some interesting Docent choices. Mage Armor is still a valid choice for non-wf Rangers. It's also jsut ONE of the first level spell options. I could have said Protection/Evil or Obscuring Mist or Feather Fall or even Detect Secret Doors.


There is more to the game than Elite end-game content. More AC is always better than less, regardless. Shield has other uses aka "preventing Magic Missile damage." And there are still other choices for first level spells.


Wizard level 1 gives +2 to Will saves since Will is a Wizard's best save category. It's a Ranger's worst. You ahve to take 6 ranger levels to improve your Will save to a base of +2, for example.


Then take another metamagic like Quicken. Many times a PUG group DOES take that much time between shrines. For those who do use Shield or Mage Armor or any of the 1st level wizard spells, having Extend WILL be useful even in a shrine-heavy environment.


OK, but some of the best enhancements/clickies come on Robes and they can be hot-swapped like Docents.


I think ranged combat gets bad perception because of everyone's desire to do a quest in record time. The ability to deal damage at range while minimizing damage received is valuable to patient groups. Regardless, the ability to pile on damage via Flame Arrow when you really do need to deal damage at Ranged is worth the cost.

[ArkoHighStar]

Superior TWF will not be a free feat for rangers as of right now, according to Eladrin, although he said he would monitor and if rangers were getting beaten up to badly he would reconsider