Mass Casting Spells

[Bogenbroom]

I have a request. Could it be taken under consideration to modify the "Mass" casting of targetable spells. I believe it would be a lot more player friendly if Mass spells just went away and that functionality was moved to a meta-magic type functionality.

I am MUCH more concerned about the spells that are cast on allies, not those cast on enemies. Buffing is one of those things that is just annoying to do and annoying to wait through.

[MysticTheurge]

Mass spells are generally separate spells and should stay that way. The added amount of power in a mass spell varies significantly from spell to spell.

The difference, for instance, between Aid and Mass Aid is less than the difference between Resist Energy and Mass Resist Energy.

That said, they should add more mass spells, specifically Mass Resist Energy, which is what takes up a disproportionately large part of the "buffing time."

[Zenako]

I have a request. Could it be taken under consideration to modify the "Mass" casting of targetable spells. I believe it would be a lot more player friendly if Mass spells just went away and that functionality was moved to a meta-magic type functionality.

I am MUCH more concerned about the spells that are cast on allies, not those cast on enemies. Buffing is one of those things that is just annoying to do and annoying to wait through.

Not sure I really understand you. Removing the Mass versions will result in both A) more spell points being used to cast them seperately, and B) having to wait even longer.

Right now I can cast Mass Aid, Mass Spell Resistence, etc and get every one with my cleric. If you are concerned about getting hit with Area of Effect spells like Rage, let your casters know and step away.

I am really not sure how it would be more player friendly to have them go away?

[MysticTheurge]

I am really not sure how it would be more player friendly to have them go away?

He's suggesting that there would be a "Mass Spell" type metamagic. You'd turn it on and then all of your buffs would be mass buffs.

[Aspenor]

I would like to see mass resist energy, that should only be what, level 6?

[MysticTheurge]

I would like to see mass resist energy, that should only be what, level 6?

Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4

[Aspenor]

Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4

Well shoot, even better...I just sorta assumed it'd be similar to the mass stat enhancing spells.

[Bogenbroom]

Mass spells are generally separate spells and should stay that way. The added amount of power in a mass spell varies significantly from spell to spell.

The difference, for instance, between Aid and Mass Aid is less than the difference between Resist Energy and Mass Resist Energy.

That said, they should add more mass spells, specifically Mass Resist Energy, which is what takes up a disproportionately large part of the "buffing time."

Understood, and if that is functionality that is deemed worth continuing a case-by-case cost should be easy enough to implement. I would assume this data lives in a table (is it extendable? is it expandable?) So rather than yes/no a value could be there.

And yup, resist energy is specifically the worst one, mostly because of the cool down timer. But Death Ward, FoM, True Sight, Hero, blur, etc are al l a rectal annoyance.

[MysticTheurge]

But Death Ward, FoM, True Sight, Hero, blur

Mass Death Ward is an 8th level spell and hopefully we'll see it in Mod 6.

There is no Mass FoM, True Seeing, Heroism or Blur.

And that's the other reason not to make a "Mass Spell" metamagic. Some spells don't have mass versions by design.

[Zenako]

Having a Metamagic toggle (and having to take a Metamagic feat to get it) could also be an issue. There are many spells that affect self/allies that you might not want to be casting on "all". Things like Restoration for example if only one victim is about. Having to toggle Mass on and off would be a pain, especially for those clerics who use things like Mass CSW in battle for example.

I personally do not find it all that much of a pain, especially if only the needed buffs are cast and everyone is not getting the whole shopping basket of buffs.

[Strakeln]

I like your idea, OP.

I think we should have a free version of this... sort of the PnP equivalent of "I cast resist energy: fire on the entire party". Same spell point cost as if you had cast them individually, but a single cooldown.

Maybe make this available only at quest entrances and rest shrines?

[Tanka]

Mass Death Ward is an 8th level spell and hopefully we'll see it in Mod 6.

There is no Mass FoM, True Seeing, Heroism or Blur.

And that's the other reason not to make a "Mass Spell" metamagic. Some spells don't have mass versions by design.
Technically, Good Hope is a Mass version of Heroism, though it adds a few more things to it and is only castable by Bards.

[Bogenbroom]

Mass Death Ward is an 8th level spell and hopefully we'll see it in Mod 6.

There is no Mass FoM, True Seeing, Heroism or Blur.

And that's the other reason not to make a "Mass Spell" metamagic. Some spells don't have mass versions by design.

But that is sort of the point. Why do I need to spend the time to individually cast blur but not aid? Yeah, I get that there are correlation in PnP, but they don't map out to DDO. In DDO the difference between single target and mass spells is, really, time. You could make the argument there is a SP cost as well, sure, but SP hits could be mitigated with proper implementation. Aid+Mass cost 20. Bull's+Mass cost 40 (or whatever Mass Bull cost now). It is still one field in the table.

Just because FoM doesn't have a Mass version in PnP doesn't mean we should have to suffer through an annoyance factor with it. My opinion of course.

I would think it should be an auto-granted Feat. Level is debatable, but my inclination would be 5, for clerics at least, since that is when mass spells first show up (from memory.)

I mean, yeah, it is a minor annoyance in the grand scope of things, but it is something that I woul dthink it would be relatively easy to do that would smooth out the game a bit.

[Laith]

In DDO the difference between single target and mass spells is, really, time. You could make the argument there is a SP cost as wellyou also forgot "higher level spell slot"

so that's 3 differences: time, SP, higher level spell slot.

Sure, the spell slot becomes less important as you get more of them, but those of your highest level are generally fairly "valuable". Also, if you want a "mass" and "single" version of the spell, you're using TWO spell slots. A toggle would cut that to one.

~~~~

"Per round" spells (like displacement for example) generally don't have Mass versions. If they did, their usefulness for recast during combat is greatly increased as they are most likely to expire.


"Time" is more than just an annoyance factor. In both DDO & PnP, how much you can achieve in a particular time frame is generally the difference between success and failure. Buffing generally occurs before a fight, but that's hardly the ONLY time it occurs.

I'm not against mass spells. Mass Resist, in particular, is long overdue. An ability that can add "Mass" to all buffs though just isn't right.

[Mercules]

Just because FoM doesn't have a Mass version in PnP doesn't mean we should have to suffer through an annoyance factor with it. My opinion of course.

You could always play a game NOT based on the ruleset you don't want to follow... like WoW.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As much as I sometimes wish there was a mass resist energy spell, I think I am against adding any more mass spells to the game, at least if they are not in D&D already.
Right now my cleric casts all the mass spells I can at the beginning of a dungeon and at shrines......this take about 1/4my SP right aff the bat.
I do not cast resist energy spells except in certain dungeons (Taming the Flames). Usually someone else in the group will cast some other buffs.....seems a lot of casters actualy like handing out buffs so others can get kill counts.
Rangers are great for resist energy spells, and don't seem to mind handing it out.

But that aside, just imagine how much time we would spend (and SP) casting every mass buff spell possible at the strart of a dungeon......plus how much the Devs would have to scale up the mobs to overcome all of those resists.
As it is, not everyone is resisted all of the time.....(and no need to be either contrary to what many gamers think)

We don't need more buffs for people to demand for no real good reason, and we don't need to give the Devs resons to make the overpowered mobs even more overpowered just to compensate for super buffs players.

I have many times commented on the lack of tactics used by players in this game.....giving the zergers more buffs and less reason to fear anything the baddies throw at them, is not the way to make this game better.

Buffing up before an end fight is great and to be expected.....buffing up for a certain type of damage in certain dungeons is also ok and should be expected......in fact, I would like to see foreign environments that require resists to make things more of a challenge.
A cold environment that does 1pt of cold damage a min would require zerging barbs to replace their heavy fort ring with a cold reist ring for instance......thereby forcing players to adapt and make things more challenging. (without ubering the mobs)

Added: Maybe I should be careful what I ask for.....I can hear the screams now..."I need another cold resist!"...."hey cleric, you listening?".....and oh the fun when I run out of mana..........."well, you're gonna recall for more, right?"

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You could always play a game NOT based on the ruleset you don't want to follow... like WoW.

There are mechanisms in D&D to create a slightly improved spell based on an existing template. In this case people are suggesting it would improve gameplay to come up with some mass versions of existing spells, and since there is a template from going form normal to mass spell (ie - resist energy) that would be an easy call for a DM to make. In some cases in PnP where spells are more limited that could be overpowering and that would need to be considered, but the same restraint isn't true here due to the SP pool and higher pool count.

[MysticTheurge]

In some cases in PnP where spells are more limited that could be overpowering and that would need to be considered, but the same restraint isn't true here due to the SP pool and higher pool count.

As Laith laid out, SPs aren't the only consideration.

Having mass versions of some spells would be overpowering, even in DDO.

[Bogenbroom]

As Laith laid out, SPs aren't the only consideration.

Having mass versions of some spells would be overpowering, even in DDO.

Yeah I would agree with that. Displacement being an obvious example, but I would still say those spells could be made to not qualify. I would think, as a default rule, only the 1min/level spells would qualify.

Someone posted about there already being too much buffage demand, and I would certainly agree with that. Personally I think there should only be so many buff slots that will have effect at once. But that is a whole other discussion.

Re: not liking the ruleset. It isn't that at all. There is just a bit of translation between PnP and DDO. I don't believe Mass spells translate very well, but as they are implemented fill a certain niche. I am not at all sure, however, that niche is really balanced to game play. There are all sorts of limitations that could be put on on it to prevent overpowering... someone mentioned only at entrances and rest shrines, which I think would be fine.

Last point, someone mentioned the extra spell slots it would free up. Yes indeed it would, and I think that is only a good thing, as it would/could/might help increase the variation in casting a bit. But again, that is probably another discussion.

[BurnerD]

There was another thread on this I started about asking for Mass Death Ward. There were some good posts about mass resist energy. There are two ways to imrpove this in my opinion.

1. Have a true mass resist energy which allows you to case resist fire for example on the entire party.

2. Change the way you can select resists to cast. What I mean by this is when you select resist energy and the energy type selection window comes up it should be redesigned so you can select multiple resists to cast on a single target and then cast them all at once.. at the appropriate sp cost of course. If you are casting multiple resists on one target this will save you some time. The same should be done with protection also.

Taking it one step further it would be really nice to have an ui screen which you could load up with all of the buff type spells. This ui would have a single icon on your bar. When you clicked on it it would come up like the resist enegy screen I mentioned above, but would allow you to select all of the buffs you wanted to cast on a target instead of just the resists. You could select resist fire, cold, death ward, aid, bulls strength, etc.. and then group cast them. Maybe this would be too complex ... I dunno. It sure would clean up caster's hot bars if they could do this with buffs. Once again the appropiate sp would be used for the group of spells you cast.

[sirgog]

RE: the OP's idea:

I think that having mass buffing available for all spells at the cost of a Metamagic feat would be overpowered. Imagine getting a raid party (say a lvl7-10 group in Tempest Spine, just before Sorjek) and dropping mass Stoneskin, mass Displacement, mass resist lightning, mass protection from lightning, mass resist sonic and, from the Cleric, mass FoM and during combat, mass cure critical wounds.

IMO it'd make a fight that can be a moderate challenge to untwinked parties into a ludicrous cakewalk.

Some buffs are more powerful as mass spells than others, and IMO mass stoneskin would be overpowered as anything under a level 9 spell.

[Kire]

Sorry if this has been suggested before:

Why can't you just click on a buff (has to be from an ally) and it removes it? im talking about the icon of course.

~Kire

[Bogenbroom]

RE: the OP's idea:

I think that having mass buffing available for all spells at the cost of a Metamagic feat would be overpowered. Imagine getting a raid party (say a lvl7-10 group in Tempest Spine, just before Sorjek) and dropping mass Stoneskin, mass Displacement, mass resist lightning, mass protection from lightning, mass resist sonic and, from the Cleric, mass FoM and during combat, mass cure critical wounds.

IMO it'd make a fight that can be a moderate challenge to untwinked parties into a ludicrous cakewalk.

Some buffs are more powerful as mass spells than others, and IMO mass stoneskin would be overpowered as anything under a level 9 spell.

Not sure I follow you. Yes, i get the dropping Mass spells in combat part, but why is cast stoneskin six times less overpowering that casting it once on the whole party?

[MysticTheurge]

Not sure I follow you. Yes, i get the dropping Mass spells in combat part, but why is cast stoneskin six times less overpowering that casting it once on the whole party?

Because the ability to instantly cast it on everyone in the party is more powerful than having to select and target each of your party members and cast the spell over a longer period of time (specifically, during combat).

[Wizzly_Bear]

Mass spells are generally separate spells and should stay that way. The added amount of power in a mass spell varies significantly from spell to spell.

The difference, for instance, between Aid and Mass Aid is less than the difference between Resist Energy and Mass Resist Energy.

That said, they should add more mass spells, specifically Mass Resist Energy, which is what takes up a disproportionately large part of the "buffing time."

qft and
/signed

[GrayOldDruid]

Instead of doing a "Mass" version of a spell or having a "Mass" metamagic feat :

Multi-Cast Macro - a "Cast on Party" timer-based free feat for casters. Multi-Cast Feat - all friendly (buff) spells cast for the next 20 seconds affect all party members in range.

A "I AM going to cast this spell on all party members, so why not automate the casting" - the click would fire off full-party casting of any spell and cost just as much SP as if the caster did it all manually, would last just as long as individual casting - and would cut the time in spent doing it in half (or more). If a party member is blocked or out of range, it just doesn't affect them. Would not work for wands though.... or could... Just a little 'automation' of repetitious task that saves a little time, but is not overpowered.

One more hotbar item, but no additional spells or spell slots used or freed. But, can cast Blur, stoneskin and Displacement on all 6 party members in much less time. If that is your thing...

[MysticTheurge]

But, can cast Blur, stoneskin and Displacement on all 6 party members in much less time. If that is your thing...

Again, this becomes problematic in a situation where quickly casting buffs that would otherwise take longer is actually problematic.

When you're standing around at the quest entrance or in a shrine, it's not such a big deal, but anything that allows you to do it mid-fight is a problem. Someones earlier suggestion of having a thing like this that only worked at quest entrances and shrines might not be so bad though.

[Bogenbroom]

Again, this becomes problematic in a situation where quickly casting buffs that would otherwise take longer is actually problematic.

When you're standing around at the quest entrance or in a shrine, it's not such a big deal, but anything that allows you to do it mid-fight is a problem. Someones earlier suggestion of having a thing like this that only worked at quest entrances and shrines might not be so bad though.

Yeah, I would absolutely go for that.

[GrayOldDruid]

Again, this becomes problematic in a situation where quickly casting buffs that would otherwise take longer is actually problematic.

When you're standing around at the quest entrance or in a shrine, it's not such a big deal, but anything that allows you to do it mid-fight is a problem. Someones earlier suggestion of having a thing like this that only worked at quest entrances and shrines might not be so bad though.

Throw in "Locks out casting offensive spells for the duration" ?? Then you pretty much have to be in a "Safe spot" instead of ONLY a entry point or shrine. Yeah, those would be the two MOST common spots to use it, but not totally exclusive - like standing outside the door to the last fight....
still has a slight potential to be used in combat - a buff-n-hide thing... but not as much. And it would require animation time to effectively cast the spell six times. Just would not have to have the player select each member, remember who they had cast it on and who they had not and not forget anyone. Saves a LITTLE time and goofs, but wouldn't be a handy combat thing where one casting hits whole party as it would still be casting it six times.

.... then again, having it be able to be done BEFORE the 'change spells' option goes away at a shrine would be awesome... shrine, memorize buffs, cast buffs, memorize useful spells.... ;D (no, not overpowerful at all, really! - lol)

[Laith]

Throw in "Locks out casting offensive spells for the duration" ?? Then you pretty much have to be in a "Safe spot" instead of ONLY a entry point or shrine.
That or you just gained a mass buffer for your raid bosses ;)

~~~~

the technical concern for this sort of ability is that it requires the spell's SP cost to be variable dependant on the number of applicable targets in the AoE.

This is something that i have yet to see occur in DDO. You're already adding effective time to all of your buffs (wasting less while buffing), the SP cost should be as similar to casting X times as possible.

I do like it as a quest entry & shrine sort of ability.

[sirgog]

Not sure I follow you. Yes, i get the dropping Mass spells in combat part, but why is cast stoneskin six times less overpowering that casting it once on the whole party?

Because casting Stoneskin 6 times costs 180sp and 6 components. Casting it with this hypothetical mass spell feat would likely cost 1 component and 55-70SP. In a raid party it's the difference between 360sp and 55-70.

[samagee]

Understood, and if that is functionality that is deemed worth continuing a case-by-case cost should be easy enough to implement. I would assume this data lives in a table (is it extendable? is it expandable?) So rather than yes/no a value could be there.

And yup, resist energy is specifically the worst one, mostly because of the cool down timer. But Death Ward, FoM, True Sight, Hero, blur, etc are al l a rectal annoyance.

It sounds like D&D may not be your kind of game then.

[Ishturi]

mass spells have always been separate in D&D. A mass metamagic feat would be OP.

Examples: Mass finger of death. Mass hold monster. Mass flesh to stone. Mass firewall (:eek:). Mass Disintegrate. Mass harm. Mass Chain Lightning (ZZZAAAPP).

[redoubt]

Not sure I follow you. Yes, i get the dropping Mass spells in combat part, but why is cast stoneskin six times less overpowering that casting it once on the whole party?

Because stone skin absorbs a lot of damage. Same problem with protections.

Imagine being in the blue dragon room gathered around a caster. Mass stone skin... shoot shoot... mass electric pro... shoot shoot... mass stone skin.... shoot shoot...

Every time the stoneskin or protection gets close to zero the caster recasts on everyone (fast). Makes a great spell and a decent spell both awesome in that kind of scenario. The amount of time it takes to cast the spell IS the balancing factor to it.