Raid Loot Protocols. . .

[Mithran]

The GM of Knights of Insurrection was recruited to be part of a meeting of Guild Masters from other large guilds on the newly-merged server, Khyber. These aforementioned GM’s ran a few raids together, got to know one another a bit, and the word was passed along to members of KoI that we were to adhere to specific raid loot protocols:

1. The person for whom a raid loot item drops has first dibs on using the item for him/herself, no questions asked, and no hard feelings.

2. The person for whom raid loot drops has the alternative option of trading his item for the raid loot item automatically assigned to someone else (from the same chest).

3. In the absence of either of the above alternatives, the item can be offered to the raid in general, where everyone who is interested in the item has an opportunity to roll on it.

Several members of my guild were in a Reaver pug, and for one of them, a +3 to Strength Tome dropped. This member was immediately offered the very lucrative trade of a Bloodstone and a +6 to Charisma ring for the Tome. In strict adherence to the raid protocols we had been instructed to follow, this member of KoI ignored the offer of a trade, and put the Tome up for a general roll. Three or four raid members rolled on the item.

The raid member who won the roll on the item had the loot transferred to them by my guildie, but rather than triple-clicking it, he/she then transferred the item to the individual who had offered the items to my guildie in trade.

Please note that I am not attempting to smear any players, here. I have specifically named no player characters, and I was not personally in the raid. My feeling is simply that members of my guild are following rather strict raid loot rules that members of other guilds are not similarly following.

What are your feelings about this incident?

[Redcoil]

...that sucks, but ultimately you cant define other people decisions.

Personally, I go for more or less the same rules.

You get it, you essentially won the roll already - its in YOUR NAME... then raid loot/loot trades n' what not, then to party...except for certain items. Reaver gloves for example, are fairly obviously cleric, while dragonsword is a bit tank-ish.

I also believe in gifts... if you choose to give your raid item to someone else because they can truly use it, as long as its for the benefit of the character and not for the ultimate motive of greed, I'm ok with that.

If a barb pulls +3 wis tome, and chooses to just give it to a cleric... the other clerics may object, but to me, at least its going to a good home :-)

[Ninety]

I don't know of any large gm meeting, or any multi guild agreement, but you can't make anyone that isn't you do anything.

[Mithran]

The question in my mind is given that this behavior is possible, should we assume that other people would do the same, and take the offer for the healthy trade?

Clearly my guildie should have taken the trade, rather than putting the item up for roll, in retrospect.


A Protocol is a set of guidelines or rules that help in governing an operation. . .


I used the term "protocol" very deliberately because I'm wondering if members of my guild should assume that the high standard set by my guildie (which had been our stated guild policy) is far out of the ordinary. Obviously, one cannot force someone else to do or say anything; nor should one try.

[Aranticus]

The question in my mind is given that this behavior is possible, should we assume that other people would do the same, and take the offer for the healthy trade?

Clearly my guildie should have taken the trade, rather than putting the item up for roll, in retrospect.


A Protocol is a set of guidelines or rules that help in governing an operation. . .


I used the term "protocol" very deliberately because I'm wondering if members of my guild should assume that the high standard set by my guildie (which had been our stated guild policy) is far out of the ordinary. Obviously, one cannot force someone else to do or say anything; nor should one try.

as you mentioned, it is a protocol and not a hard set of rules. in real life, protocols are not strictly adhered to even.... think of the kyoto protocol (global warming). given that we are in a virtual environment behind the annonomity of the internet, there is no true ways to enforce anything set. you can alienate, punish these individuals but its a lose-lose situation. IMO this player has done a greater thing by giving it up for a roll. he/she gave up loot he had to other players when he/she could have used it to enrich him/herself... such self sacrifice should pervade in people.

that said, there are exceptions. just this week i was disgusted by 2 players in a dragon pug. when the loot item dropped, they automatically assumed that they would get the loot that dropped for me. i asked who needed it, no one else apart from the replied, i looted it then finished out.....

[Barumar]

The only clarification I would want is did the person who won the roll, and then made the trade your Guildie was offered know that your Guildie was offered the exact same trade? If so, then that is messed up! If not, then I have no issues with that person...

Bottom line - your Guildie following such a strict policy got him screwed out of a sweet trade - imho!

My Guildies and I run the Reaver twice a week. We have somewhere between 4 & 8 Guildies in each run. We normally offer our drops we already have to all to roll on, but (again imho) +3 Tomes are different. That is why we keep running that raid, and when one drops we are of course first looking to ourselves, and then to our Guildies with these very rare and very awesome Tomes! If/when a +3 CHA Tome ever drops I am of course hoping it has my name or one of my Guildies names next to it, as I have passed on rolling for (in the old Raid loot mechanic when we 4 - 6 manned the Raid with all Guildies) +3 STR and +3 DEX tomes to allow Fighters and Rangers/Rogues to have them. Of course there is always the multiple of 20 chance for one (almost to 40!)...

Again, I am thinking it is best to clarify BEFORE the raid any Raid loot policy, especially for +3 Tomes, as I think these are the items that get the most attention/cause the most "issues".

Barumar

[Impaqt]

I know I'm not on your server, but i have to comment.

Trying to enforce your own high standards, Protocal, and ways of doing things in a PuG is a recipie for heartache, Frustration and ill will.

The game has given us a raid loot system that is beyond absolute control. Trying to control is is an exercise in frustration. If you expect people to live up to your standards, only group with people you know that do.

If you are going to try to enforce your raid loot rules onto random players, the rules should be laid out before the quest begins so they have an oppertunity to drop group and find another.

[Serpent]

Isn't the new raid loot system wonderful!!!

[Boldrin]

Why has no one else heard of this meeting of the great leaders of Khyber?? I know I haven't . Personally, I give away 95% of the raid loot I get. Because I already have it or don't need it. If a friend is in the group and he needs it, he gets it. If none of my regular raid runners need it, I offer it to the group. If more than 1 person wants it, they roll, how hard is that. If someone offers me an insane trade for an item, I'm taking it, plain and simple. If I pull a +3 tome I'm eating it, regardless of what class I am, just for a better saving throw, or any other enhancement it may give me( combat expertise- int, will save- wis, and the others are more obvious, except my fighter has given away a +3 cha tome, only one I'll pass up. )

[Harncw]

Why has no one else heard of this meeting of the great leaders of Khyber?? I know I haven't .

What you missed that? They opened up the 12 just for it... Yeah it did sound a little egotistical.

as for my opinion, cause I guess he asked...

it was dirty pool but then there are all kinds out there. I have played dirty pool before too!

[Lo_Pan]

I don't know about others, but I know KoI are an honourable bunch....So are TA, Hobt, KotA, DoA and a few other pre merge guilds I could mention....Now, I am getting to know some of the post merge guilds, and I can say that Legion of the cold children and Stormreach thieves guild are good guys....Don't know many others out there. All I will really say is: It's a pug.....It's up to the leader of the group to define the loot system He/She wants to use.....other than that....if a guild has rules about pugs and pug raid loot system, then the individual should act in accordance with their own principles. As the old cliché says: 'You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink!'

[Cowdenicus]

This is strictly my opinion but if raid loot drops for me, it is my choice on what to do with it period. If I want it I am going to use it, if I dont want it, I will choose whom I will give it to, and my friends come first, then my guildies, then me.

(Bards are my friends)

[Ninety]

I love how he hasn't come back to comment on the lack of anyone knowing about this guild leaders meeting.

[Ghaldar]

The GM of Knights of Insurrection was recruited to be part of a meeting of Guild Masters from other large guilds on the newly-merged server, Khyber. These aforementioned GM’s ran a few raids together, got to know one another a bit, and the word was passed along to members of KoI that we were to adhere to specific raid loot protocols:




Are you refering to the meeting where 1 guy invited 11 other guilds to meet to talk about the loot raid changes?

Whilest I am not the Leader of the MAC, I am an officer. I forget even who the lad was that invited the MAC to this meeting.....I do know one occured as I passed the invite to my guild master and trap finder Featherstone.
I know featherstone attended, I also know that these guild leaders ran some raids and got to know each other....I know that Raid loot discussions took place, I also Know that the discussions moved to cover more important things, like guild relations etc. What I do not know is that anything was ever really formalized about Loot. If this was the meeting being refered too by the op, nothing has been passed down the chain of command to me about a "protocol", I thought it was more of a mature handling of loot where if you get it it is yous and if you do not use it you can trade/put up for roll....course I couold be wrong.....which i am frequently...ask Dane.

[Conquistador]

I did hear about this meeting of the 10-12 largest guilds meeting shortly after the new raid loot system was announce. How the big 12 was determined or what protocol they deemed fair and just for the new loot system I don't have a clue. Our guild was not in attendance. Anyhow, just wanted to confirm that there was a powwow.

Peace,
Conq

[Ghaldar]

Essentially One person from one of the newly merged servers asked 11 other Guilds to come to this thing....I know we in the MAC not being "uber" were leary of said meeting...but our leader attended mostly out of curisousity. The protocol for Guilds to be invited was never clear. At the time I thought some very good guilds were not there. I know the meeting was intended to be very loot oriented by the host, I believe it turned to be very non loot oriented and more of a get to know the other guilds....

[Fallout]

PUG and strict raid loot protocols.
Hmm they go together well.
When you introduce pug into the picture, then the loot protocol should go away since it can't be enforced, and people simply don't care/don't listen. Guild only group, different scenario.

[Oreg]

...../snip What are your feelings about this incident?

Turbine already put rules in place for raid loot.

1. You can keep your loot
2. You can choose to give it to someone else on the raid


You guys tried to add/change the rules to the result of some raid loot fixing scheme. I am not surprised that it fell apart because in the end the only rules that matter are #s 1 and 2 listed above.

[Citymorg]

We have 2 very strict protocals for our raids, they apply to guild raids and guild + pug raids.

1. If the loot drops in your chest, it is your's to do with as you wish

2. If you don't need/can't use the loot, ie. Barbarian gets a Stormreaver Napkin or a Sorcerer gets a Sword of Shadows (or someone puts something up for a roll and you win and give to someone else for a trade), then don't be a jerk. If you are, we have a very long lis....memory for people who those sorts of thing. PM please.

[Staedtler]

Whenever I pull raid loot I ask myself "Can I use this?" No? "Can I anyone I like use this?" No? "Roll for my loot if you want it. I will also take bribes."

Does this meet the standards of the Khyber Raid Loot Protocol?

[Azoralq]

If I pull loot I can't use. I cry about it endlessly in DDO Chat, then recallout, leaving the item to rot. :cool:

Kidding, of course...:rolleyes:

[muffinlad]

I love how he hasn't come back to comment on the lack of anyone knowing about this guild leaders meeting.

So, now do we need to expect you to come back and apologize for basically implying that the person is a liar when they did not comment on your time table, or perhaps ignoring your request altogether? I mean, now that others have confirmed it, shouldn’t you? Or perhaps you may want to doubt their truthfulness as well?

My point here being, how you ask something is often more important than what you ask for.


muffinscheden

[Strakeln]

After a few bad experiences, I'm changing my personal raid loot policy.

Tomes I will eat unless I already have eaten the same tome. I put a +2 cha tome out for roll and had something similar to the OP's situation happen... burned me so much that I started missing the +1 to my intimidate that it would have provided (essentially useless, but at least I wouldn't feel robbed now if I'd followed the "eat your own tomes" policy.

If someone offers me plat or items for something I don't want, I will sell it. I'd really be ****ed if I had the OP's situation happen word for word.

If no one offers me plat/items and I do not want the loot, I will offer it up for a roll but will not hand it over until the winner and I are the only two people in the instance. Furthermore, I will strictly define who is rolling based on strongest need.

I don't like handling my loot this way, but people on Khyber have now repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to follow the original loot owner's wishes. Sucks that a few jackholes ruin it for the rest of us, but I'm sick of seeing loot I rolled off being sold or given to the winning roller's guildie or anything like that.

[muffinlad]

After a few bad experiences, I'm changing my personal raid loot policy.

Tomes I will eat unless I already have eaten the same tome. I put a +2 cha tome out for roll and had something similar to the OP's situation happen... burned me so much that I started missing the +1 to my intimidate that it would have provided (essentially useless, but at least I wouldn't feel robbed now if I'd followed the "eat your own tomes" policy.

If someone offers me plat or items for something I don't want, I will sell it. I'd really be ****ed if I had the OP's situation happen word for word.

If no one offers me plat/items and I do not want the loot, I will offer it up for a roll but will not hand it over until the winner and I are the only two people in the instance. Furthermore, I will strictly define who is rolling based on strongest need.

I don't like handling my loot this way, but people on Khyber have now repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to follow the original loot owner's wishes. Sucks that a few jackholes ruin it for the rest of us, but I'm sick of seeing loot I rolled off being sold or given to the winning roller's guildie or anything like that.

Hmmmm, at first I thought...well, if you give them the loot, who cares if they sell it/trade it, etc...but after thinking about it, it would/could get under my skin if this happens.

Already, I NEVER agree to a roll on my loot in a PUG, but I would offer to highest bidder. (by PuG I do not mean guild only, as I would not consider a group of people I know, who happen to not be in TFC, a PuG.) In a Familiar group (Guildies, and known players) I would give stuff away at a drop of a hat, and if someone I gave something to sold or traded it in that case, I really would not care. I more than likely would have given them money if they needed it anyway.......

Regs,

muffinlooter

[jkm]

After a few bad experiences, I'm changing my personal raid loot policy.

Tomes I will eat unless I already have eaten the same tome. I put a +2 cha tome out for roll and had something similar to the OP's situation happen... burned me so much that I started missing the +1 to my intimidate that it would have provided (essentially useless, but at least I wouldn't feel robbed now if I'd followed the "eat your own tomes" policy.

If someone offers me plat or items for something I don't want, I will sell it. I'd really be ****ed if I had the OP's situation happen word for word.

If no one offers me plat/items and I do not want the loot, I will offer it up for a roll but will not hand it over until the winner and I are the only two people in the instance. Furthermore, I will strictly define who is rolling based on strongest need.

I don't like handling my loot this way, but people on Khyber have now repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to follow the original loot owner's wishes. Sucks that a few jackholes ruin it for the rest of us, but I'm sick of seeing loot I rolled off being sold or given to the winning roller's guildie or anything like that.

just so you know, it was suwsuw that pulled yet another +3 useless stat tome.

i've amended my raiding policy to this:

guild raid - follow our rules
other guild's raid - follow their rules
pug - whatever i feel like doing

[Strakeln]

just so you know, it was suwsuw that pulled yet another +3 useless stat tome.

i've amended my raiding policy to this:

guild raid - follow our rules
other guild's raid - follow their rules
pug - whatever i feel like doingI should have probably more clearly stated that guild raids and non-pug raids with other guilds will have different rulesets that I follow. My new policy is for pug/semi-pug raids.

And I am SO gonna start raiding with you. See if I can get that horseshoe removed from your ass so that I may insert it into mine.

[Ninety]

So, now do we need to expect you to come back and apologize for basically implying that the person is a liar when they did not comment on your time table, or perhaps ignoring your request altogether? I mean, now that others have confirmed it, shouldn’t you? Or perhaps you may want to doubt their truthfulness as well?

My point here being, how you ask something is often more important than what you ask for.


muffinscheden

No one confirmed it until after I posted that, and if I had posted something as controversial as that I would have checked in on it the next day to say the least. Nor did I ever say that I believed him to be a liar, cheat, scoundrel, etc

But anyway how did he pick 12 guilds out of the 300 or so guilds on the server?

I can just hear the thought process "hmm lets invite the leaders of what we believe to be the top 4% of the guilds on this server and expect 100% of the population to follow this" I don't see the logic behind this.

[maddmatt70]

No one confirmed it until after I posted that, and if I had posted something as controversial as that I would have checked in on it the next day to say the least. Nor did I ever say that I believed him to be a liar, cheat, scoundrel, etc

But anyway how did he pick 12 guilds out of the 300 or so guilds on the server?

I can just hear the thought process "hmm lets invite the leaders of what we believe to be the top 4% of the guilds on this server and expect 100% of the population to follow this" I don't see the logic behind this.

It sounds like it was based on the size of the guilds on the server. I doubt it had to do with the top 4% of the guilds on the server as there are some excellent small guilds on our server... I personnaly have characters in three excellent small guilds - the largest being about 9 members and the smallest having one (go cdc).....

[Ninety]

It sounds like it was based on the size of the guilds on the server. I doubt it had to do with the top 4% of the guilds on the server as there are some excellent small guilds on our server... I personnaly have characters in three excellent small guilds - the largest being about 9 members and the smallest having one (go cdc).....

Even if it was based off size, i believe Dwarven Defenders could probably make up there in the top, where as my other smaller guild (that are you are a part of :P) Zergers annon would definately not be close. Fallen Heros has a lot of members as well, not sure how Ashen is fairing now a days, but I know I still see a lot of them running around too (all Riedra guilds, except zergers)

[muffinlad]

No one confirmed it until after I posted that, and if I had posted something as controversial as that I would have checked in on it the next day to say the least. Nor did I ever say that I believed him to be a liar, cheat, scoundrel, etc

But anyway how did he pick 12 guilds out of the 300 or so guilds on the server?

I can just hear the thought process "hmm lets invite the leaders of what we believe to be the top 4% of the guilds on this server and expect 100% of the population to follow this" I don't see the logic behind this.

The implication was there, and quite clear. You challenged him not just on the logical strength of his assumptions, but the very core of his story, i.e. that such a meeting even happened in the first place. That is the same as calling him a liar, and the hair's bit of difference in saying it out loud, or merely implying it by your arguments is spurious at best.

Your follow up "reminder" for not showing up to what you considered an appropriate timeline of response further demonstrates my point. Even if I consider it in the most optimistic light, it was a challenge by you, that was answered, and you at the very least should have the grace to acknowledge that the person was in fact, telling the truth...at least regarding the particulars.

That you may or may not have had time to respond to the follow up postings is all part of the delicious irony that is forum posting, and I would refer you to your second post on the matter.

That being said...I ENTIRELY AGREE WITH YOU regarding the results, and conclusions one should draw from such an agreement, and its level of impact on a server based community. The spread of voluntary standards, as launched by a “Cabal” and then never publicized or formally agreed on at anything other than a “Raid Meeting” has all the power of toilet paper in a hurricane. It might get tossed though the side of a barn, but more than likely, it is just going to cause a mess all over your yard.

My final thought(s) on the matter is a bit of a rehash. Stating that you doubted that such a meeting ever took place is “fair argument” only if you are willing to admit when you are wrong. You being wrong about the meeting does not in any way lessen the strength of your other arguments, BUT, and most importantly, it would not have improved the strength of your arguments had you been right!

The concept of multi-guild agreement regarding loot, in execution and vision was fatally flawed from the get go, as many people have pointed out. Calling into question the veracity of such a meeting, and then dictating response times to suit your posts borders on rude, and in no way helps your argument. It may seem I am trying to pick a fight with you, but it is really quite the reverse. You had the right idea, but the excess distracts.

muffinlad

[maddmatt70]

Even if it was based off size, i believe Dwarven Defenders could probably make up there in the top, where as my other smaller guild (that are you are a part of :P) Zergers annon would definately not be close. Fallen Heros has a lot of members as well, not sure how Ashen is fairing now a days, but I know I still see a lot of them running around too (all Riedra guilds, except zergers)

You mention some Riedra guilds. To be honest Old Riedra Guilds do not have some of the bigger guilds (in terms of size i.e. number of members) on our server; in fact, they might not have any guilds in the top ten in terms of size.

[Sensei]

You mention some Riedra guilds. To be honest Old Riedra Guilds do not have some of the bigger guilds (in terms of size i.e. number of members) on our server; in fact, they might not have any guilds in the top ten in terms of size.

Nope

[Dark-Star]

My recollection of what the guy did was to count the amount of people in each guild at a specific interval for a week or two.

Although this yields the most populous guilds, it certainly does not equate to the guilds that raid or host raids the most. There are some mid and small sized guilds with very competent and active players.

Unless everyone buys in to such a policy, which will never happen, the policy will just set someone up to get screwed over eventually.

[Mithran]

To address why I hadn't discussed why this or that guild wasn't in the meeting, I have no information about who was invited, who was there, why they were invited, or what else was discussed.

I took one of my clerics on a Titan raid for the group, but that's the extent of my involvement with them.

Another reason I didn't address it is because it was off topic.

[Mithran]

I think my own behavior in pugs will reflect that outlined by jkm.

[Ghaldar]

Whenever I pull raid loot I ask myself "Can I use this?" No? "Can I anyone I like use this?" No? "Roll for my loot if you want it. I will also take bribes."

Does this meet the standards of the Khyber Raid Loot Protocol?

Depends......can I bribe you with ale or Dwarven spirits?

[Ghaldar]

You mention some Riedra guilds. To be honest Old Riedra Guilds do not have some of the bigger guilds (in terms of size i.e. number of members) on our server; in fact, they might not have any guilds in the top ten in terms of size.

Who knows about size ...hell I do not even know how big the MAC is now. I do know we have over 222 registered people on our guild forums....peak times 20-30 folks logged in and off peak around 10. Is that big? We have run on a raid night two full dragon raids...well one spot was puged out. Does this make the MAC a large guild? As I said I have no idea how big the rest of you are.....and honestly who cares really. have fun and do not forget to stretch and stay hydrated.

[Altarboy]

Turbine already put rules in place for raid loot.

1. You can keep your loot
2. You can choose to give it to someone else on the raid


You guys tried to add/change the rules to the result of some raid loot fixing scheme. I am not surprised that it fell apart because in the end the only rules that matter are #s 1 and 2 listed above.
I agree with this guy
for the most part but if someone needed the loot and I gave it to them and then the just traded it I'd be a little annoyed and most likely would never pug with them again

[Altarboy]

So, now do we need to expect you to come back and apologize for basically implying that the person is a liar when they did not comment on your time table, or perhaps ignoring your request altogether? I mean, now that others have confirmed it, shouldn’t you? Or perhaps you may want to doubt their truthfulness as well?

My point here being, how you ask something is often more important than what you ask for.


muffinscheden

Um....what?...::applies this misguided logic::

Can I please have your +5 holy flaming burst paralizin vorpal long sword?...pretty please

[Riot]

were in a Reaver pug,

That's where things went wrong....

KOI is good peeps. But PuG Raiding is a problem waiting to happen.
It's a self inflicted wound waiting to be opened.

[Staedtler]

Depends......can I bribe you with ale or Dwarven spirits?

If I find 500k plat in the bottom of my stein, I'm more than happy with ale bribes.

[maddmatt70]

That's where things went wrong....

KOI is good peeps. But PuG Raiding is a problem waiting to happen.
It's a self inflicted wound waiting to be opened.

I know this is somewhat out of context, but as a member of guilds under the size of 9 and frequent pug raider, unless we decide to shortman it or every once in awhile when we form an alliance, pug raiding is not a self inflicting wound waiting to be opened. Perhaps Riot you should try pug raiding as you might learn a thing or two. Seriously..... There are alot of quality players out there who know this game really well and that is all I have to say on the matter..

In regards to loot systems - we don't have any, but if we did we would not include pugs in the equation. i.e. it would be like the pugs were not there when determining loot, but even so I like grabbing people to finish out a group even if we only need 3 people to complete the quest because well I like to help grow the game if I can help it..

[Aranticus]

That's where things went wrong....

KOI is good peeps. But PuG Raiding is a problem waiting to happen.
It's a self inflicted wound waiting to be opened.

Riot, you should stop running guild runs (had heard from one former riedran in your guild that you ONLY do guild runs). there are lots of quality players pugging out. not only that, more importantly, if we want to build a collective spirit, pug is the only way out. when i first did velah post merge, when i told some of the players in the pug about hero-ing velah (which we always do in riedra), i was surprised to note that many of the players in that raid had no knowledge of such a tactic even thou they were vets (mostly did the rushing method). yeah i figure you could keep all these within the guild but if we do not share a collective spirit and knowledge in pugs, then pugs will ALWAYS be bad.

such thinking like yours is the self inflicted festering wound, not pugs.....

[Mithran]

I've had the full gamut of experience in pug runs, and while I prefer to run in-guild raids, I have too many flagged characters to run them all within my guild, and I know that some other members of my guild have, too. Also, I typically only run pug raids when I recognize at least a couple players' names and know they're capable and courteous.

Those guilds who hadn't heard of this group for guild leaders should initiate your own. Reach out to the GM's of other guilds and either try to get involved or start your own trans-guild raids.

I'm certain there are many guilds that weren't represented in the group that should have been. Any inter-guild communications and interactions are (or should be) a good idea.

[Riot]

I'll preface this by saying my tone is not meant to sound "mean".


Perhaps Riot you should try pug raiding as you might learn a thing or two.
(calm voice)
Learn what exactly? How to take forever to form up? How to deal with failure? How to deal with the one guy who doesn't listen?
Seriously, what will I learn from PuG raiding, that I won't learn either from guild raiding or PuG grouping?
If you can show me one positive thing that cannot be learned elsewhere or that I have not already learned I'll change my position.



Riot, you should stop running guild runs ..... there are lots of quality players pugging out. not only that, more importantly, if we want to build a collective spirit, pug is the only way out......
It has nothing to do with my perception of "quality players" out there. I know they are out there, I see them in PuG groups. I've recruited them personally into guild. I've had them request to join our guild of their own free will. Quality Players and Server spirit or pride has nothing to do with my personal choice to avoid pain and suffering at the hands of PuG raiding.


such thinking like yours is the self inflicted festering wound, not pugs.....
My thinking is self inflicted what?
Success?
Guild cohesiveness?
Again, what wound do you speak of? Am I self inflicting myself (by raiding in guild) with the wound of constant success? or with the wound of "no loot problems"? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of starting on time and finishing quickly? Or the horrid wound of group cooperation and capability? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of having scheduled raids so I can log in complete it and spend time with my family?

I'm struggling here to understand your point and see how my thinking / personal choice is a self inflicted wound.

Again, I have no doubt there are good raiders out there, and great raid leaders.
I've recruited them, I've met them, I've grouped with them in plain PuGs.

This thread is about a guild that, imho, is good enough (to the last of my knowledge) that they shouldn't have to PUG raid.
Because we've all heard/experienced PuG raids that have been, "less than spectacular" to say the least.

If you joined a guild of 4 people or 9 people or whatever. It's your own self inflicted wound. It's great you have a close circle of friends or that you have a tight bond. It's great you have that. But everything in life and in game comes with tradeoffs.

If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.

Good luck with your PuG raiding.
I don't do it. Not with with the bindable loot. (Tempest Spine is of course the exception)

[Altarboy]

Again, what wound do you speak of? Am I self inflicting myself (by raiding in guild) with the wound of constant success? or with the wound of "no loot problems"? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of starting on time and finishing quickly? Or the horrid wound of group cooperation and capability? Or maybe it's the self inflicted wound of having scheduled raids so I can log in complete it and spend time with my family?

I'm struggling here to understand your point and see how my thinking / personal choice is a self inflicted wound.

Again, I have no doubt there are good raiders out there, and great raid leaders.
I've recruited them, I've met them, I've grouped with them in plain PuGs.

This thread is about a guild that, imho, is good enough (to the last of my knowledge) that they shouldn't have to PUG raid.
Because we've all heard/experienced PuG raids that have been, "less than spectacular" to say the least.

If you joined a guild of 4 people or 9 people or whatever. It's your own self inflicted wound. It's great you have a close circle of friends or that you have a tight bond. It's great you have that. But everything in life and in game comes with tradeoffs.

If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.



Jeeeeez calm down yer spraying pus all over the place!...::pokepoke::

sorry bored an trollin

[maddmatt70]

I'll preface this by saying my tone is not meant to sound "mean".


(calm voice)
Learn what exactly? How to take forever to form up? How to deal with failure? How to deal with the one guy who doesn't listen?
Seriously, what will I learn from PuG raiding, that I won't learn either from guild raiding or PuG grouping?
If you can show me one positive thing that cannot be learned elsewhere or that I have not already learned I'll change my position.

[quote]


Fair enough it is your choice of course.

I have not failed a raid (pugs, in guild, etc.) in I don't know how long with the exception of course being the abbot. It does not take too long to finish any raids especially since generally the optimum number of people needed for most raids is 3.

Learning can be different styles or ways of completing a raid or just adventuring in general - I know that you pug some in non raids so you get some exposure to this..




[quote]
If you want to raid and you join a small guild. Your playing poker with less than a full deck. And if (and I do mean "if") you get burned on a PuG raid. That's the downside. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to anyone. But I've played MMO's for a long time and human nature can be a witch.


Bah now that is ignorance if you are referring to succesfully completing a raid. The only exception to this is of course the abbot raid. Form a guild alliance or you may have to expand your guild to 12+ for that one I will not deny.

If you are referring to raid loot I am of the school of if the barbarian wants his +3 charisma tome he can have it...

[Riot]

Bah now that is ignorance if you are referring to succesfully completing a raid. The only exception to this is of course the abbot raid. Form a guild alliance or you may have to expand your guild to 12+ for that one I will not deny.

If you are referring to raid loot I am of the school of if the barbarian wants his +3 charisma tome he can have it...

It's not ignorance. VoN and Titan both took quite a while before the "less than optimal numbers" were beating them.
Reaver is just plain stupid easy, barely qualifies as a raid in my book. (only the bindable loot makes it so)
And DQ well, it's just borked beyond comprehension.

if you come from a small guild, you have to make a choice.

a) Form some sort of alliance. (which can either be a Large guild mentality with factions) or (PuG explosion waiting to happen)
b) PuG it. (your virtual box of chocolates)
c) Wait until the raid is capable of being solved with lesser numbers. (which can take a while, or be very quick).

None of those steps needs to be taken in a guild like the one I am in.

[ateknogod]

why do people keep trying to apply their rules for what they think should be done with smething i get in a chest? if i pulled +5 mith full plate on my wizard, i wouldnt put that up for a roll? so why is it that something that binds is SO much different? on my given example, i would sell/trade the armor, so why is it so much of a taboo to do the same with raid loot? my guild was represented at the meeting mentioned in this thread, and the 'rules' were explained guildwide. so what did i do? i ignored them. when a warded chest is opened, every player makes a roll to see what they get in that chest, so whatever is in the chest is THEIRS. they can loot it, trade it, sell it, give it away, or leave it there. and nobody should care because that item dropped for that player. it is THEIRS. if i am in a pug and the party leader wants me to do something his way, i will. but NOBODY will tell me what to do with something that drops in a chest for me. is that selfish? probably. however, i pay my $15/month to play, so it is my right to be selfish in that manner. this may get flamed, and if so, oh well. i am simply stating what i know a lot of people feel, even though they wont admit it because of the rules of their specific guild. need before greed is dead. turbine got rid of it for us. now everyone gets something from the raid chest, so ease up on what others do with their loot.

[Mithran]

The reason I posted this thread is because I wanted people's feedback on it. You're free to ignore the rules, as you're free to ignore all other rules, not just in this game, but outside it as well, for that matter. The run that I detailed was a pug, and I was curious to know what other people thought about the willingness of a member of my guild to follow the rules to their personal detriment. You're clear with your post: You think we're being foolish to follow what had been our collective policy.

The real question in my mind is if you think we should follow the rules when my paladin pulls a +3 Intelligence tome and you're in the raid on your wizard. If it's a raid in your guild, everyone but you could rightly expect that I would follow the rules that had been laid out. If we were in a pug, you can now expect that I would not put it up for a roll, myself.

[Staedtler]

I'm still really interested to know where you got the notion that there were any PUG rules in the first place.

[ateknogod]

The reason I posted this thread is because I wanted people's feedback on it. You're free to ignore the rules, as you're free to ignore all other rules, not just in this game, but outside it as well, for that matter. The run that I detailed was a pug, and I was curious to know what other people thought about the willingness of a member of my guild to follow the rules to their personal detriment. You're clear with your post: You think we're being foolish to follow what had been our collective policy.

The real question in my mind is if you think we should follow the rules when my paladin pulls a +3 Intelligence tome and you're in the raid on your wizard. If it's a raid in your guild, everyone but you could rightly expect that I would follow the rules that had been laid out. If we were in a pug, you can now expect that I would not put it up for a roll, myself.

i cant see why anyone would put any +3 tome up for a roll (unless they had already used that stat). that is the only reason most people i know even run reaver anymore.

but to answer your question, no, i wouldnt expect to get your loot. i would be happy that i was present when someone got a +3 tome. and if you had already used a tome of the stat that dropped, i would pretty much offer everything i had (short of my soul) to you for the tome.

[Mithran]

I'm still really interested to know where you got the notion that there were any PUG rules in the first place.

The rules were for members of my guild and for the other guilds who were represented in the GM group.

[Svetelana]

Several members of my guild were in a Reaver pug, and for one of them, a +3 to Strength Tome dropped. This member was immediately offered the very lucrative trade of a Bloodstone and a +6 to Charisma ring for the Tome. In strict adherence to the raid protocols we had been instructed to follow, this member of KoI ignored the offer of a trade, and put the Tome up for a general roll. Three or four raid members rolled on the item.

The raid member who won the roll on the item had the loot transferred to them by my guildie, but rather than triple-clicking it, he/she then transferred the item to the individual who had offered the items to my guildie in trade.

Please note that I am not attempting to smear any players, here. I have specifically named no player characters, and I was not personally in the raid. My feeling is simply that members of my guild are following rather strict raid loot rules that members of other guilds are not similarly following.

What are your feelings about this incident?


My feelings are.....It doesn't seem to working out too well! lol

With 12 people squawking away, do you really think a non KOI cares what your guild does? Kudos to the dude that got the ring and the bloodstone :)

[Inkblack]

I'm not sure that the guidelines proposed can truly be followed. Once ownership of an item is transferred to a player, there is simply no enforcement mechanism to prevent them from doing whatever they want with it. As you said, it sounds like KoI is following strict guidelines that others are not.

Next time I would either limit the roll to those involved in generating the guidelines, or take the trade if none are available. At least then you could file a complaint with the player's guild leader if a problem occurs.

Ink

[Staedtler]

The rules were for members of my guild and for the other guilds who were represented in the GM group.


My feeling is simply that members of my guild are following rather strict raid loot rules that members of other guilds are not similarly following.

If the player from the original incident is not in one of the represented guilds I don't see why you should complain.

[Mithran]

I didn't see a complaint, but feel free to point it out.