Preaching to the Choir: A rant about some rangers

[RavenStormclaw]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...doing very little damage (we all know how well pierceing weapons work against skeletons) and generally was becoming a mana sponge. I repeatedly told him to stop and go with something more effective. He refused. Told the party leader he was being a drain and he asked him to stop. Finally I just gave up and stopped healing him. Of course he threw a stink..told him i was happy to run his stone to the shrine but until he listened to me i was not going to heal him. He never did listen just kept dying. Perhaps letting him die so much was bad but he had to learn a lesson. I know most who read this I will be preaching to the choir but if even one young ragner learns somethinhg I will be happy.

Raven

[Tanka]

Did you explain why he should stop?

Simply saying "Stop ranging or I'll stop healing you" doesn't tell him why. It just tells him that you don't like range, which may just confuse him.

[DoctorWhofan]

Sorry, My ranger and my hubby's use nothing but bow. However, we tend to pick our targets, barely get damaged and heal ourselves. Next time, if he wants to range everything until his death, remind him he too, can heal. And turn his autoattack off.

OR, you can tell the rest of the party to let him handle everything, while you all watch all the mobs go past you and straight for him. precision is an excellent feat. Use it.

[sigtrent]

Lol, the only group I ever walked out on was a delera's run with three bow users who not only insisted on only using the bows, but would all pick seperate targets to attack. I almost had to assume they were torturing me on purpose as they were generaly expereinced players from a guild known for its skill. That or they were all drunk out of thier midns... who knows..

But they kept getting ther butts kicked and the one real melee kept going link dead and the rogue kept zerging ahead whenever things slowed down... it was crazyness. I eventualy just politely excused myself. Really it was kind of funny in a way as it was so rediculous.

[Draclaud]

Do you know if it was a holy bow? Generally doing no damage draws very little aggro... Did you try to explain to him about aggro management, and how you have to wait until the mele has established aggro b4 you range? Or did you just tell him to play his character the way you wanted him to?


Just checking...more flys with honey you know...

[Onubis]

Now i generally try to accomadate my grp with playing the way that'll help us best(not a ranger, just how any player should play in grp). But unless, some1 is getting us killed multiple times, I try to refrain from telling them how to play their character. I also, being a grp leader alot, try to take into account the burden put on the healer. If the healer feels, some1 is pulling too much aggro and its becoming a probelm to keep said person healed, then I myself will ask the person to play differently by explaining the situation fully. Only then if the person doesnt listen do I say "ok, you just took up a space in my inventory. See you at the next shrine" or the end of the quest if the guy is really being a noob.

[RavenStormclaw]

Yes,

I did explain the range, aggro management concept to him. I patiently explained why he was drawing to much aggro, why i needed him to stop, and what he could do to help me out. Mind you he did not even have a heal wand and ran out of pots on the first quest. He was using a +1 long bow of pure good which i realize does some damge but not when used like a maching gun...he was literraly changing targets after every 2-3 shots....left a lot of ticked off skellies alive. Yes I have seen some rangers used bows almost exclusively with wonderfull results...but it was very obvious he was not being effective...and i took the time to explain to him why.

[Onubis]

Yes,

I did explain the range, aggro management concept to him. I patiently explained why he was drawing to much aggro, why i needed him to stop, and what he could do to help me out. Mind you he did not even have a heal wand and ran out of pots on the first quest. He was using a +1 long bow of pure good which i realize does some damge but not when used like a maching gun...he was literraly changing targets after every 2-3 shots....left a lot of ticked off skellies alive. Yes I have seen some rangers used bows almost exclusively with wonderfull results...but it was very obvious he was not being effective...and i took the time to explain to him why.

Yea, then i probably would have done samething. More though because he didnt have teamwork in mind... I do the same thing with zergers, well the 1's that think they can zerg but really can't. (disclaimer: if you can zerg and take care of urself, i have no problem with you. disclaimer: disclaimer: unless its a "sensitive" area to be defined quest by quest.)

[oronisi]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...doing very little damage (we all know how well pierceing weapons work against skeletons) and generally was becoming a mana sponge. I repeatedly told him to stop and go with something more effective. He refused. Told the party leader he was being a drain and he asked him to stop. Finally I just gave up and stopped healing him. Of course he threw a stink..told him i was happy to run his stone to the shrine but until he listened to me i was not going to heal him. He never did listen just kept dying. Perhaps letting him die so much was bad but he had to learn a lesson. I know most who read this I will be preaching to the choir but if even one young ragner learns somethinhg I will be happy.

Raven


This really has nothing to do with rangers specifically. I've run with low level casters that are just as much a drain. It really just comes down to players' ability to adapt, manage aggro, and be self sufficient. Now I would have thought those 3 things are quickly learned, but I've come to realize they aren't. In my opinion, refusing to be someone's crutch is the ONLY way to help them.

[Draclaud]

Yes,

I did explain the range, aggro management concept to him. I patiently explained why he was drawing to much aggro, why i needed him to stop, and what he could do to help me out. Mind you he did not even have a heal wand and ran out of pots on the first quest. He was using a +1 long bow of pure good which i realize does some damge but not when used like a maching gun...he was literraly changing targets after every 2-3 shots....left a lot of ticked off skellies alive. Yes I have seen some rangers used bows almost exclusively with wonderfull results...but it was very obvious he was not being effective...and i took the time to explain to him why.

Ranged Ranger 101-Range 1 target at a time until you get improved precise shot. Wait til mele gets good aggro b4 ranging. Your bursting bow may be nice on paper...but pull out the wounding/paralyzing/weakening/cursespewing/disruption. DDO rangers are not PnP rangers. You will never be a DPS power house. You are a support character. If you can live with that, then range away. If not... don't pick up a bow.

[RavenStormclaw]

This really has nothing to do with rangers specifically. I've run with low level casters that are just as much a drain. It really just comes down to players' ability to adapt, manage aggro, and be self sufficient. Now I would have thought those 3 things are quickly learned, but I've come to realize they aren't. In my opinion, refusing to be someone's crutch is the ONLY way to help them.

You are right on both accounts...its just that it has happened a lot to me lately specifically with rangers but that probably is just a fluke. As I have said I have run with some very good ones...but then again they heal themselves and others...and knew when to switch to meelee weapons..although even this isn't a requirement if you have the bows to do the job right. He just didn't and didn't know/care enought to go melee.

[Zenako]

Sounds like the Ranged Ranger Guild needs to bring this guy out and teach him a few things...sad to say that players like that become more obvious than some bad players with other classes. Their poor play style DOES impact the rest of the group adversely and needs to be dealt with. He also may have been used to running with some twinked toons that could easily cover for his poor choices. Usually you see that when someone with a character barely of level suited for a quest makes semi boasting remarks about how this should be easy since they already went through it on elite with no problems. Sigh...So often that is a result of some toon being able to carry an entire group through something and effectively hide how hard it might otherwise be. (For example someone with RR Disruptor running in Delaras for example. Even one of those can make the whole thing close to a cakewalk.) Then when a more normal groups does the run, they stick with their old mindless routine, expecting things to be "taken care of" and are shocked when the bleep is hitting the fan.

My ranger packs more melee weapons than bows (and he has about 8-10 bows on hand). Combos, we got combos (and I also have +5 Shield if it really becomes necessary).

[QuantumFX]

Raven: Please keep in mind that there are nightmare stories about ALL the classes in DDO. Your complaints read more like a dis on rangers rather than an expression of anger about players that refuse to adapt.

[Zenako]

Raven: Please keep in mind that there are nightmare stories about ALL the classes in DDO. Your complaints read more like a dis on rangers rather than an expression of anger about players that refuse to adapt.

Agreeed... The Bad Cleric, the Zerging Barb, the Man sponge Rogue, the Clueless Sorc, the "I didn't know I could use wands" Paly, the Silent Bard, the Greatsword swinging Wizard (lowbie style) with never moving mana bar... These and others I have seen over the many months of play. All have been overcome....sometimes by shear force of will.....sigh

[RavenStormclaw]

Raven: Please keep in mind that there are nightmare stories about ALL the classes in DDO. Your complaints read more like a dis on rangers rather than an expression of anger about players that refuse to adapt.

Was not meant to be a dis on rangers...if it was taken as such I apologize. Was really meant to be educational for those young..read new players who might think that all a ranger can and should do is use a bow...which is not really true. As I said my OP..I like the class. They can be very versatile and effective but like all classes need to be played right. Sometimes a light spanking is needed to get someone going in the right direction. Lord knows it happened to me until I learend aggro managment on my sorcerer. Had several clerics point out to me how my stone would be a keepsake in their pack if i did not learn how to not **** of everything at once...lol. l learned...now I live much longer.

Raven

[DaveyCrockett]

the Man sponge Rogue

Aspenor? :D

[KiwiJoe]

I have a ranger (that 95% melees) and I have to say... a badly played ranger is one of the most annoying toons to group with. The worst are the bow users that target mobs before the tank(s) get aggro, then charge round like headless chickens trying to avoid damage whilst doing very little themselves. We all know how hard it is to try and melee moving mobs in DDO :(

I'm sure a few bow rangers will come on and say they can kite a mob round, avoid all damage AND kill it quickly. Maybe with manyshot, and the right bow, but its a hell of a lot easier for the group, particularly the cleric, just to let the tanks do their job - TANK, and have the bow ranger attack without aggro.

Then theres the TWF build with 160 hitpoints that THINKS he's a tank when in reality he's an accident waiting to happen. :rolleyes:

A well played ranger can be an awesome part of the group, problem is you never know what ya gonna get in a PUG thus its usually safer to go for the BARB/FIGHTER/PALLY.

[Thame]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...doing very little damage (we all know how well pierceing weapons work against skeletons) and generally was becoming a mana sponge. I repeatedly told him to stop and go with something more effective. He refused. Told the party leader he was being a drain and he asked him to stop. Finally I just gave up and stopped healing him. Of course he threw a stink..told him i was happy to run his stone to the shrine but until he listened to me i was not going to heal him. He never did listen just kept dying. Perhaps letting him die so much was bad but he had to learn a lesson. I know most who read this I will be preaching to the choir but if even one young ragner learns somethinhg I will be happy.

Raven

Since when were you god of how someone should play their character?

[Draclaud]

I have a ranger (that 95% melees) and I have to say... a badly played ranger is one of the most annoying toons to group with. The worst are the bow users that target mobs before the tank(s) get aggro, then charge round like headless chickens trying to avoid damage whilst doing very little themselves. We all know how hard it is to try and melee moving mobs in DDO :(

I'm sure a few bow rangers will come on and say they can kite a mob round, avoid all damage AND kill it quickly. Maybe with manyshot, and the right bow, but its a hell of a lot easier for the group, particularly the cleric, just to let the tanks do their job - TANK, and have the bow ranger attack without aggro.

Then theres the TWF build with 160 hitpoints that THINKS he's a tank when in reality he's an accident waiting to happen. :rolleyes:

A well played ranger can be an awesome part of the group, problem is you never know what ya gonna get in a PUG thus its usually safer to go for the BARB/FIGHTER/PALLY.

On a side note of this Manyshot, and a WP bow...hmmm mob death goodness...

[RavenStormclaw]

Since when were you god of how someone should play their character?

Easy...since I was the cleric he kept screaming at for heals...whose mana bar was dropping fast, who wands were getting wasted on him in almost 5 to 1 over everyone else including the casters. You want me to heal you you need to listen to me...i have a responsibility to the whole group not just one person.

[SpiRosM]

All i have to say is So many people have rangers that make me wanna puke. Dude if your ranger sux just delete it. My ranger could out dps, and tank better than most Wannabe tanks out there. For those who know me know it. Like every class in the game, It depends on the guy Playing it. Btw, fewer and fewer good tanks these days. I mean Sensitive has more Ac than most of them without a freaking shield. I have 7 rangers on my friendlist, I just deny to party with any more than that. Do the same, and stop Complaining.

Tip: A Ranger is heavily dependent on good gear. Black Abbot Bow, Chain of conviction, 30 dex, 30 strength, mentau goggles, Etherial bracers, all uber and dps weapons. Thats my style. Cant go wrong.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Transmuting bow......works fine on skellies and zombies.
However, most rangers should switch to melee before something gets close enough to wack on them.
Ran VON1 recently with a ranger that just kept shotting and running from the troll champion, even though it was obvoious he was regenerating faster than he could damge him, and that no one else could get a swing in on the troll while he had agro and was running. (I've seen the same thing with mages)
I like ranged combat, but there comes a time when you need to put the bow down and go hand to hand. Although i suppose I could argue that in some situations it would work better if everyone pisked up a bow. :)

[DaveyCrockett]

If only they would give us the Yuan-Ti Serpent bows. (not that I play a ranger, but I think rangers would love em)

[Strakeln]

You will never be a DPS power house. You are a support character.Does this statement refer to ranged rangers only? In that case, I would agree... but otherwise, I'd have to strongly disagree.

[RavenStormclaw]

Spi who are you talking to...deleting my ranger...I don't have a ranger. Never said I had one. And if you could read my original post title again I said some rangers not all.


All i have to say is So many people have rangers that make me wanna puke. Dude if your ranger sux just delete it. My ranger could out dps, and tank better than most Wannabe tanks out there. For those who know me know it. Like every class in the game, It depends on the guy Playing it. Btw, fewer and fewer good tanks these days. I mean Sensitive has more Ac than most of them without a freaking shield. I have 7 rangers on my friendlist, I just deny to party with any more than that. Do the same, and stop Complaining.

Tip: A Ranger is heavily dependent on good gear. Black Abbot Bow, Chain of conviction, 30 dex, 30 strength, mentau goggles, Etherial bracers, all uber and dps weapons. Thats my style. Cant go wrong.

[SpiRosM]

If you are talking about Ranged Rangers (few seconds of manyshot excluded), i agree. Thats not called a support character though. Thats called a "we can do it with 5 people, u can come along" lol.

If you arent refering to that. Sorry, you are clueless.

[Draclaud]

Does this statement refer to ranged rangers only? In that case, I would agree... but otherwise, I'd have to strongly disagree.


If you read the whole post I thought it was pretty obvious, as the Title is Ranged Ranger 101-, and as the end is says if you're not ok with it, don't pick up a bow, but if it wasn't clear enough then...I'll attempt to be even clearer than that next time.

[SpiRosM]

If you read the whole post I thought it was pretty obvious, as the Title is Ranged Ranger 101-, and as the end is says if you're not ok with it, don't pick up a bow, but if it wasn't clear enough then...I'll attempt to be even clearer than that next time.


Clear enough for me. Im glad u brought this up. This is somthing that annoyes me 2, cant deny it.
Then again, if I do start using Unwavering bow (Mostly for the fun of it), dont think many people will get a chance to hit stuff :P

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you are talking about Ranged Rangers (few seconds of manyshot excluded), i agree. Thats not called a support character though. Thats called a "we can do it with 5 people, u can come along" lol.

If you arent refering to that. Sorry, you are clueless.

That would be 2-3 Tanks, 1 Buffing Sor who occasional throws a maxed empowered firewall when things get too tough for your tank, a cleric to heal you the entire time you are swing your greataxe, and maybe a rogue if you think the traps are too tough to jump through.......right?

[SpiRosM]

You can do the same with 2-3 "Good" rangers, a sorc u mentioned, and a cleric. Maybe a rogue if someone in the party needs extra xp. Rephrased a bit ;)

Party with me and FingerSmith in the same group, Im not just words ^^

[Draclaud]

If you are talking about Ranged Rangers (few seconds of manyshot excluded), i agree. Thats not called a support character though. Thats called a "we can do it with 5 people, u can come along" lol.

If you arent refering to that. Sorry, you are clueless.

Paralyzers, Curespewers, W/P bows, destructions...I think I can be a good support guy. People seem to like having +5 to Ac from our barkskin too...2 hits from a wounder lowers a fort save by one so that fod hits a little better

[SpiRosM]

Paralyzers, Curespewers, W/P bows, destructions...I think I can be a good support guy. People seem to like having +5 to Ac from our barkskin too...


Drac, playing my ranger support isnt my style and goal, but hey if group is strong , it can only get stronger. i will not disagree with you. Lets not start talking about barkskin, cause I think most people dont even know how much AC it can give them these days lol..

[Draclaud]

Lets not start talking about barkskin, cause I think most people dont even know how much AC it can give them these days lol..

Sadly...point set match to Spir...can't argue that as no one will group with rangers as a gereral rule...

[SpiRosM]

Whats your Ranger's name btw bro?

[oronisi]

You are right on both accounts...its just that it has happened a lot to me lately specifically with rangers but that probably is just a fluke. As I have said I have run with some very good ones...but then again they heal themselves and others...and knew when to switch to meelee weapons..although even this isn't a requirement if you have the bows to do the job right. He just didn't and didn't know/care enought to go melee.

Oh, it's not a fluke. I see more crappy rangers than good ones... moreso than any other class probably. I often ask myself 'what are you bringing to the group?' With rangers, unless they go 1-2lvls of rogue to fill the trapsmith responsibilities, usually aren't providing substantial damage, buffing, or healing. A lot don't know how to manage agro so they are also draining healing resources at the same time. On the flip side, I have seen a few that lay some serious crowd control or debuffing through their speedy attacks (para, cursespewing, etc), but those are few and far between. But those problems aren't class specific. I think the ranger class is naturally gimped, so it is just easier to fail at being one.

[RavenStormclaw]

I will,

Its nice having a melee type back by me when all hell breaks loose and the wall of badies gets through....but as I said know when to give up the bow and go hand to hand. You may not ever have to do it (that's for you Spi) but by god please have the common sense to know when your bow has failed you and its continued use is hurting the group.



Sadly...point set match to Spir...can't argue that as no one will group with rangers as a gereral rule...

[SpiRosM]

Least i can ask people to do is, be able to notice the good rangers, have them on your friendlist or something, and dont invite any that you are in doubt with. Thats my tactic :P

Bottom line : rangers are a very Common - sense required Class. Lacking such sense WILL be a guaranteed 100% disaster, no money back or refund :P

[Thame]

Easy...since I was the cleric he kept screaming at for heals...whose mana bar was dropping fast, who wands were getting wasted on him in almost 5 to 1 over everyone else including the casters. You want me to heal you you need to listen to me...i have a responsibility to the whole group not just one person.

Perhaps it wasnt the ranger, perhaps your a shoddy cleric with too low sp or poor choice of feats, or just cant play a cleric very well, perhaps you should just hang it up or delete your character.............its a double edged sword. Not everyone who plays a cleric is good at it.

[RavenStormclaw]

Dude,

You are going to take a thread that was not aimed at anyone in particular and make it personal. I hope the infraction gods see that. As to being a poor cleric I doubt it. Nobody else had a problem. They all lived..heck even the idiot was kept alive until I let him die on purpose after failirng to head my advice and costing me tons of mana...which I have plenty of. I don't even know why I am justifying myself to you..please give me your character names I think i don't want to group with you.
Perhaps it wasnt the ranger, perhaps your a shoddy cleric with too low sp or poor choice of feats, or just cant play a cleric very well, perhaps you should just hang it up or delete your character.............its a double edged sword. Not everyone who plays a cleric is good at it.

[Zenako]

Bad player - bad results
Good player - good results

insert whatever class you want into this statement and you get a true statement.

How bad the results are and how OBSERVABLE they are does depend on character class to a good degree. Ineffective Cleric and Rangers tend to be more obvious. Frankly an ineffective tank might slide under the radar for entire quests, but anyone whose actions affect others (healing, or triggering excessive aggro) gets noticed.

My ranger goes by the Kill what I shoot mantra. If I begin shooting at it, I fully expect to kill it, no help expected.

A well played ranger will cull the enemy herd and pick out the casters, get their aggro and get them to either spend time futilily chasing or casting mostly REF save based spells at my Evading butt. Keep away from the rest of party to avoid collateral damage and everyone wins. Tanks get to wail on the enemy grunt mobs. Our casters help where needed, free from incoming damage spells, and the team wins.

My Ranger also has 2 Rogue levels and can do all but THE trap.

So he covers traps and locks, provides certain buffs for the team (Barkskin, Jump, etc), has superior ranged attacks and excellent melee debuffing. TWF with nice weapons can shread the abilities of the mobs. Curses, Destructions, Wounding, Wound on Puncturing, etc. With finesseable weapons I am hitting pretty much anything. If the mob is a favored enemy all the better for more fun and games. Oh, I can heal myself nicely too. I do not have melee DPS, but then I have not seen ANY melee that comes within shouting distance of capped arcanes anyway. (mmmm...500 points Area of effect damage spells, every few seconds...nope..nothing with a weapon will come remotely close so I do not worry about that.)

[Staedtler]

I have a method for dealing with rangers who like to kite -- let them. If they want to pull agro on one mob and run around in circles slowly picking away at it's HP while the rest of the party runs ahead, more power to them. I will not, however, run back to heal them or pull agro off them if things get out of hand. If someone plays a character who intends on kiting things I see it as a statement that they don't need the rest of the party and can handle whatever mess they get themselves into.

It's a successful compromise. Ranged guy gets to run around in circles and the rest of the party doesn't have to chase anything.

[Thame]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...doing very little damage (we all know how well pierceing weapons work against skeletons) and generally was becoming a mana sponge. I repeatedly told him to stop and go with something more effective. He refused. Told the party leader he was being a drain and he asked him to stop. Finally I just gave up and stopped healing him. Of course he threw a stink..told him i was happy to run his stone to the shrine but until he listened to me i was not going to heal him. He never did listen just kept dying. Perhaps letting him die so much was bad but he had to learn a lesson. I know most who read this I will be preaching to the choir but if even one young ragner learns somethinhg I will be happy.

Raven.


Well here your saying how someone should play their chqaracter that they created and spent time to develop, then because he wont do it your way, you let him die. This shows a lack of respect for fellow players and in general the type of person you really are.....











Dude,

You are going to take a thread that was not aimed at anyone in particular and make it personal. I hope the infraction gods see that. As to being a poor cleric I doubt it. Nobody else had a problem. They all lived..heck even the idiot was kept alive until I let him die on purpose after failirng to head my advice and costing me tons of mana...which I have plenty of. I don't even know why I am justifying myself to you..please give me your character names I think i don't want to group with you.


No you didnt specify a name at the beginning. You specified a whole class that they should play a certain way. And how can u say u werent a poor cleric? Of course no one else had a problem. You probably would have let them die if they argued. And again you didnt specify a 'name' but then you call the guy an idiot for once again not playing the way you felt he should. Usually people who seek justification are starting to realize they were wrong and are trying to find a suitable excuse for what they did.

[Strakeln]

edit: nevermind. Attempting to converse with certain people is something akin to herding cats.

[RavenStormclaw]

I was not seeking justification. I am quite certain I did nothing wrong. I was not telling him how to play until he started demanding way more of me then any one else in the party while drawing more aggro and contributiing quite a bit less and for your reading comperhension skills I said some rangers in my OP title not all. Your posts suggest your are judgemental to say the least. I kept they entire party alive for the whole quest. But when someone is taking 5 timesthe resources while contributing less then half of anyhone else...there is a problem. If that is the way your play I hope your stone is carreid around a lot. I did not start this out pesonal and think you are just looking for a fight. Please do not post to this thread anymore.


Well here your saying how someone should play their chqaracter that they created and spent time to develop, then because he wont do it your way, you let him die. This shows a lack of respect for fellow players and in general the type of person you really are.....













No you didnt specify a name at the beginning. You specified a whole class that they should play a certain way. And how can u say u werent a poor cleric? Of course no one else had a problem. You probably would have let them die if they argued. And again you didnt specify a 'name' but then you call the guy an idiot for once again not playing the way you felt he should. Usually people who seek justification are starting to realize they were wrong and are trying to find a suitable excuse for what they did.

[isldur]

I have a method for dealing with rangers who like to kite -- let them. If they want to pull agro on one mob and run around in circles slowly picking away at it's HP while the rest of the party runs ahead, more power to them. I will not, however, run back to heal them or pull agro off them if things get out of hand. If someone plays a character who intends on kiting things I see it as a statement that they don't need the rest of the party and can handle whatever mess they get themselves into.

It's a successful compromise. Ranged guy gets to run around in circles and the rest of the party doesn't have to chase anything.

Ya good team work. I like to do that for the wiz/sorc who thows the fireball at the mobs too. It's a team game. Op is right there are many bad rangers out there.(many bad clerics wiz, barbs ect. as well). A good ranger is probably kiting the mob or mobs that came after the squishies. So you saying leave him is just silly. "Hey buddy thanks for getting aggro off the mage now were gonna leave you because I'm too lazy to run around in a video game". Maybe that's not how you meant it but that's how it sounds to me. You ever think that kiting saves the cleric manna? Or do you think that is just the ranger showing off.


Actually, here's the real ironic part. The ranger is doing his job, while kiting the mob. It's the fighter who isn't.

Gee, what fighter skill would stop that mob from chasing that silly ranger? Here's a hint it starts with an I.

So in conclusion I will not tolerate any whining about having to chase after mobs that are chasing the kiting ranger.

To the op ignore the bad cleric comments, by other posters. I'm sure it wasn't your fault, but sadly the offender will never read this. Because if he ever went to the ranger forums there is plenty advice on playing a good ranger and he obvious hasn't and probably never will. I agree tho, if you could just turn one bad ranger into a good one it was worth it.

[Thame]

I was not seeking justification. I am quite certain I did nothing wrong. I was not telling him how to play until he started demanding way more of me then any one else in the party while drawing more aggro and contributiing quite a bit less and for your reading comperhension skills I said some rangers in my OP title not all. Your posts suggest your are judgemental to say the least. I kept they entire party alive for the whole quest. But when someone is taking 5 timesthe resources while contributing less then half of anyhone else...there is a problem. If that is the way your play I hope your stone is carreid around a lot. I did not start this out pesonal and think you are just looking for a fight. Please do not post to this thread anymore.

Nope not looking for a fight at all. You posted this and I responded with my opinion of the situation. You bash a certain class and person (whom you called an idiot(If this isnt starting a fight I dont know what is)), for not playing the way you felt he should for that certain quest.

You wanna talk about taking 5 times the mana is a 2 handed fighter or barbarian who is always hit each time while running any high end content, but the ranger has the option to kite the guy, so what if it takes him 100 shots to kill a skely. So would you have done the same with a 2 handed fighting barb at say 14th level? No you wouldnt so to me their is no justification to not healing this guy and letting him die, again because he didnt play the way you felt he should. I hope in the future all your parties are fighters with 60 AC because any rogue, sorc that throws a fireball, or anyone in general with a low AC can expect no heals from you right? Will you tell them they are using too much of your resources?

FYI, I have a cleric, I have run into many people you have described, but guess what, its just a game.......heal em move on and laugh about it later. Dont come on here bashing someone for not living up to your standard.....

[RavenStormclaw]

Apparently you missed the whole point. My criticism was that he was being ineffective...very ineffective. He could not hanlde the aggro he generated. Would not switch to meelee when he wasn't doing his job. My whole point was that some very inexperienced rangers think they are bow wielders only and that simply isn't true. I did want him to play my way because will all may mana...and I have above average for my level and wands i was having a terrible time keeping him and the rest of the party alive. At that point if he wants me to heal him it is my right to make a suggestion or two. This is teamwork...not watch me aggro everything with no regard to the rest of the party. You obviously fail to understand this. I was not bashing anyone that could every be recognized. I used no names. This protects their idenity while still trying to make a point. You publicly attack me...and yet know nothihng about what else happened in that quest. Their are certain classes that draw aggro and must learn how to manage it...rangers...two handers...nukers. He did not know how to manage his aggro. When I gave him suggestions on how to do it...he refused. Anybody will tell you aggro management is important. If you can't do it...dont generatet the aggro. If you do you are a burden to your party. You can not argue that point.


Nope not looking for a fight at all. You posted this and I responded with my opinion of the situation. You bash a certain class and person (whom you called an idiot(If this isnt starting a fight I dont know what is)), for not playing the way you felt he should for that certain quest.

You wanna talk about taking 5 times the mana is a 2 handed fighter or barbarian who is always hit each time while running any high end content, but the ranger has the option to kite the guy, so what if it takes him 100 shots to kill a skely. So would you have done the same with a 2 handed fighting barb at say 14th level? No you wouldnt so to me their is no justification to not healing this guy and letting him die, again because he didnt play the way you felt he should. I hope in the future all your parties are fighters with 60 AC because any rogue, sorc that throws a fireball, or anyone in general with a low AC can expect no heals from you right? Will you tell them they are using too much of your resources?

FYI, I have a cleric, I have run into many people you have described, but guess what, its just a game.......heal em move on and laugh about it later. Dont come on here bashing someone for not living up to your standard.....

[bandyman1]

My money is on Thame being the ranger in question !!!!!!!:D

[Pyromaniac]

I have a method for dealing with rangers who like to kite -- let them. If they want to pull agro on one mob and run around in circles slowly picking away at it's HP while the rest of the party runs ahead, more power to them. I will not, however, run back to heal them or pull agro off them if things get out of hand. If someone plays a character who intends on kiting things I see it as a statement that they don't need the rest of the party and can handle whatever mess they get themselves into.

It's a successful compromise. Ranged guy gets to run around in circles and the rest of the party doesn't have to chase anything.

QFT

Here's one poster that knows exactly how to deal with ranged rangers. Move on to the next mob, let the ranged ranger finish what he started.

[isldur]

QFT

Here's one poster that knows exactly how to deal with ranged rangers. Move on to the next mob, let the ranged ranger finish what he started.


Why because his gimped fighter doesn't have intimidate?

[In_Like_Flynn]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...I think I was in this group. If not, the exact thing happened to me a couple of days back. The ranger used only his bow even when surrounded by skeletons. Death followed.

[RavenStormclaw]

Who was your cleric? I was playing Whiskie my cleric.
I think I was in this group. If not, the exact thing happened to me a couple of days back. The ranger used only his bow even when surrounded by skeletons. Death followed.

[AkromaAoW]

There certainly are number of rangers running around that do strange things that don't seem very helpful:(. The bad news is that these rangers make it tough for all rangers. Although I have seen all classes played badly, rangers seem to be shunned more often than most, and I have even run into some folks that just will not group with rangers at all. It's a real shame. I know some very capable ranger types...

[Aranticus]

Least i can ask people to do is, be able to notice the good rangers, have them on your friendlist or something, and dont invite any that you are in doubt with. Thats my tactic :P

Bottom line : rangers are a very Common - sense required Class. Lacking such sense WILL be a guaranteed 100% disaster, no money back or refund :P

precisely this is the kind of attitude that make bad players exist. quit being an elitist. if we all adopt your approach, the newbs learn nothing and there will be even more of such players around. i dun regard myself as a uber player but i try my best to bring new players up. i believe that the more lowbies you help, the less noobs you get at the top. being proud of yourself and grouping only with the good players while helping your game, doesnt help the community..... :mad:

[TEK]

yeah ill probably bet thame is the ranger in question too. don't think i've ever seen someone be so sensitive on a topic that has nothing to do with them

[KiwiJoe]

Ya good team work. I like to do that for the wiz/sorc who thows the fireball at the mobs too. It's a team game. Op is right there are many bad rangers out there.(many bad clerics wiz, barbs ect. as well). A good ranger is probably kiting the mob or mobs that came after the squishies.

A GOOD ranger would switch to melee and kill that mob in secs flat.

I wouldnt heal a ranger constantly kiting mobs and being a total NEWB ass either.

[Strakeln]

There certainly are number of rangers running around that do strange things that don't seem very helpful:(. The bad news is that these rangers make it tough for all rangers. Although I have seen all classes played badly, rangers seem to be shunned more often than most, and I have even run into some folks that just will not group with rangers at all. It's a real shame. I know some very capable ranger types...I agree. Rangers are a funny class... when played by a good player, they are nothing short of amazing. When played by a bad or notably inexperienced player, their ability to hinder and wipe the party is nothing short of amazing.

My ranger is easily my most solo-able character, and always has been. Yet I've seen countless rangers unable to get 2 feet away from the party without dying. Heck, I've seen rangers who managed to get killed over and over and over, despite hiding behind the cleric and arcanes the entire quest.

[Staedtler]

Ya good team work. I like to do that for the wiz/sorc who thows the fireball at the mobs too. It's a team game. Op is right there are many bad rangers out there.(many bad clerics wiz, barbs ect. as well). A good ranger is probably kiting the mob or mobs that came after the squishies. So you saying leave him is just silly. "Hey buddy thanks for getting aggro off the mage now were gonna leave you because I'm too lazy to run around in a video game". Maybe that's not how you meant it but that's how it sounds to me. You ever think that kiting saves the cleric manna? Or do you think that is just the ranger showing off.


Actually, here's the real ironic part. The ranger is doing his job, while kiting the mob. It's the fighter who isn't.

Gee, what fighter skill would stop that mob from chasing that silly ranger? Here's a hint it starts with an I.

So in conclusion I will not tolerate any whining about having to chase after mobs that are chasing the kiting ranger.

To the op ignore the bad cleric comments, by other posters. I'm sure it wasn't your fault, but sadly the offender will never read this. Because if he ever went to the ranger forums there is plenty advice on playing a good ranger and he obvious hasn't and probably never will. I agree tho, if you could just turn one bad ranger into a good one it was worth it.

Here's the rub: A ranged ranger "doing his job" makes it near impossible for melees to do their jobs. Since the "job" of a ranger is to run around and kite how can a fighter, which excells against relatively stationary mobs, do their job? If they pull agro from the ranger or spam intimidate then the ranger isn't outputting sufficient DPS and they aren't doing their job.

I'll say it again - if you kite you're on your own. It's difficult for other people to pull agro off of you. This is due to poor melee mechanics while moving, intimidate having a limited range and some things being plain immune to intimidate. If you can't handle the agro and need someone to peel it off you, SHIELD BLOCK IN FRONT OF A MELEE -- NEVER, EVER RUN AWAY. Any melee class will be more than glad to take the two or three swings required to get rid of the pest.

Of course, there are wonderful exceptions to the rule. Good kiting occurs when a mob has decimated the party and agro needs to be diverted so the party can recover, heal and counterattack. This is a great time for a ranger to grab agro, speedboost and backpedal. Bad kiting occurs when a ranger starts shooting into a mob, pulling initial agro and then proceeding to backpedal around the room while the melees try to finish the lone straggler and his ranger friend. Quality rangers know the difference and can adapt to the situation. But, as has been stated several times, quality rangers are particularly rare.

[SableShadow]

Easy...since I was the cleric he kept screaming at for heals...whose mana bar was dropping fast, who wands were getting wasted on him in almost 5 to 1 over everyone else including the casters. You want me to heal you you need to listen to me...i have a responsibility to the whole group not just one person.


I agree here; ran an elite new-necropolis quest with the slimes....and a bard who was afk most of the time. Granted, he had family issues he had to deal with, but in the last half of the quest it was easier to just leave him dead and drag his stone around than to rez him.

Last half of the quest was much quicker, easier, and cheaper than the first half.

And I'm no the cleric, I'm the bloody rogue. :(

[Hvymetal]

Well here your saying how someone should play their chqaracter that they created and spent time to develop, then because he wont do it your way, you let him die. This shows a lack of respect for fellow players and in general the type of person you really are.....


So then thame you agree that it's ok to allow one characters playstyle dictate how another should play their character? Cause that's basically what your saying, pot meet kettle.

[Hvymetal]

Why because his gimped fighter doesn't have intimidate?
No because obviosly the Ranger felt he could handle the mob.......

[Aranticus]

Here's the rub: A ranged ranger "doing his job" makes it near impossible for melees to do their jobs. Since the "job" of a ranger is to run around and kite how can a fighter, which excells against relatively stationary mobs, do their job? If they pull agro from the ranger or spam intimidate then the ranger isn't outputting sufficient DPS and they aren't doing their job.

I'll say it again - if you kite you're on your own. It's difficult for other people to pull agro off of you. This is due to poor melee mechanics while moving, intimidate having a limited range and some things being plain immune to intimidate. If you can't handle the agro and need someone to peel it off you, SHIELD BLOCK IN FRONT OF A MELEE -- NEVER, EVER RUN AWAY. Any melee class will be more than glad to take the two or three swings required to get rid of the pest.

Of course, there are wonderful exceptions to the rule. Good kiting occurs when a mob has decimated the party and agro needs to be diverted so the party can recover, heal and counterattack. This is a great time for a ranger to grab agro, speedboost and backpedal. Bad kiting occurs when a ranger starts shooting into a mob, pulling initial agro and then proceeding to backpedal around the room while the melees try to finish the lone straggler and his ranger friend. Quality rangers know the difference and can adapt to the situation. But, as has been stated several times, quality rangers are particularly rare.

beg to differ but i feel that ranged rangers can help a group in other ways too. i have been in groups where the melees could not handle the mobs. so after a particularly bad battle i gave the following instructions:

1. form a wall
2. i move up agro mobs
3. kite mobs into wall
4. tanks hit 1 mob trapped in wall
5. i kite other mobs away
6. rinse and repeat

using this tactic i was able to make several contributions. the use of range weapons esp destuction and other debuffing weapons made it easy for the melees to handle the mobs. by kiting the rest of the mobs and using speed boost, i ensured that damage taken by the group is lowered thus making it easy for the cleric. teamwork isnt about adapting to the strength of the group. its about using everyone's strength to contribute....

[Staedtler]

beg to differ but i feel that ranged rangers can help a group in other ways too. i have been in groups where the melees could not handle the mobs. so after a particularly bad battle i gave the following instructions:

1. form a wall
2. i move up agro mobs
3. kite mobs into wall
4. tanks hit 1 mob trapped in wall
5. i kite other mobs away
6. rinse and repeat

using this tactic i was able to make several contributions. the use of range weapons esp destuction and other debuffing weapons made it easy for the melees to handle the mobs. by kiting the rest of the mobs and using speed boost, i ensured that damage taken by the group is lowered thus making it easy for the cleric. teamwork isnt about adapting to the strength of the group. its about using everyone's strength to contribute....

No doubt, under certain circumstances, ranged combat can be very effective and preferable to melee combat. Problem is, these situations are few and far between and are supreme exceptions.

I love how this thread has brought forth a seeping resentment from everyone towards THAT ranger who insists on being a bad example for ranged combat as a whole. I hope you're proud of yourself, Mr. Archetype.

[underlordone]

I have one fully ranged and one meele ranger both are very good at what they do . I do with my full range alt have a very good heal (41-50 base 91-118 crit). I feel that u can and if u know how to tank very well with a bow at any lvl with RIGHT BOWS and most of all KNOWING WHERE U R or yes most def with out that u r a hinder to group and should let die. This is comeing from some one who knows bow's and when not to run and when to stop block let tanks take move agine.

my 2 copper

[Tresha_D'Artet]

i have 2 rangers, 1 pure dex build and 1 multi class...love'm both, fun to play

but here i personally agree with the OP decision. folks can argue this all they want, they can agree or disagree with it all they want and its goin to turn into is a mudslinging contest.

took me awhile to learn that shooting everything in sight with a bow and having to run around to keep from gettin slapped by a few ogres wast he wrong way to go about things. oh..before anyonestarts i KNOW there are no ogres in deleras...that was of course an example. see how that works?

there is the wizard/sorc that wants to hit everything with a fireball or their magic missile, theres the barb/fighter/pally that wants to zerg ahead and whack at everything in sight, theres the ranger that doesnt know that he can use a heal wand or a rapier, theres the ...it goes on and on and on and on. if it takes a cleric..wait..rephrase..if it takes a HEALING cleric to tell the ranger that hey...your +1 bow isnt doing anything but causing the tanks to chase mobs and me running out of resources and said ranger dying a few times to help him understand whats going on...then i say whatever works. this does NOT in my opinion make the player playing the cleric "a god and having the right to tell someone how to play their character".
personally, im still wondernig why the .03 seconds it takes to locate/disable a trap is too long to wait for and usually just sit back and watch folks run right by the rogue looking for it...easier to spot when folks die in a trap...yep they take up backpack space too :D

[Tresha_D'Artet]

My money is on Thame being the ranger in question !!!!!!!:D

lmao!!

[Kreaper]

Sorry, My ranger and my hubby's use nothing but bow.


Those aren't Rangers. Those are archers. :p

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Perhaps it wasnt the ranger, perhaps your a shoddy cleric with too low sp or poor choice of feats, or just cant play a cleric very well, perhaps you should just hang it up or delete your character.............its a double edged sword. Not everyone who plays a cleric is good at it.

Well, in his defense (by the way, I love Rangers!) the Ranger in his group should have been healing himself.....especially when the cleric stopped doing it.
I would never beg for heals on any of my toons......I won't even ask, since the low red bar should be ovious to everyone.
I had a fighter that got beat up bad and had no heal pots, and for some reason the cleric didn't try to heal me......I switched to ranged weapons or stayed out of fights all together until they figured out that they were getting more beat up than usual and finally figured out why.......the ranger could have done the same. (assuming he didn't have any wands like he should have had!)

I am constantly amazed by the number of Rangers and pallies (also rogues past lvl4) who do not carry wands (CLW is cheap). I'm also amazed by the number of those classes that do carry wands but do not use them on others (or at least not until the cleric is OoM and even then only between fights).
All of my Rgrs and Pals will stop fighting and start healing if I notice people about to go down....it's not the prefered method, but I've saved the party like that many times.

Rangers can do way more than range with a bow. And even if you are really good with your bow (difficult with the slowness of all ranged weapons) you should know when to use your other abilities to support the party best.

I know this post is getting long, but I've got to add that I really disagree with the guys who think most rangers are bad.......not true at all in my experiance, and overall Rangers are such a good class that even a bad one is still a capable toon. I will admit that that the guy that runs around canstantly while something chases him and contiues to shoot uselessly is a common sight (especially in WW)......but you can always stop chasing him and just let him figure it out himself (or die). And I've seen even more arcanes do this than Rangers.... Most annoying thing ever....why these guys won't run toward the tanks I will never know.

Anyone being chased should run toward the biggest tank in the group and stand right on top of him.....it won't keep yo ufrom getting hit, but it will most likely keep you from getting hit more than once, as the tank will quickly get agro and probably kill the guy real fast.

Something I noticed recently was the mephits in SC would run toward my Archer until I switched to melee weapons and then run away from me.......very annoying....but it wa easy to swiched back to my bow and after the first time they usually did not come running back toward me.

[Strakeln]

I know this post is getting long, but I've got to add that I really disagree with the guys who think most rangers are bad.......not true at all in my experiance, and overall Rangers are such a good class that even a bad one is still a capable toon.Perhaps it's this: by the time you reach level 14, the majority of the rangers are pretty good. Most of the horrible ones drop off the face of the earth between levels 6 and 10. But oh golly, if you dare to pick up an unknown ranger level 6 and under, you are really rolling the dice. That's the level range where you will find the auto-attack-always-on-and-I-draw-agro-from-all-mobs-using-bows rangers.

[llevenbaxx]

No doubt, under certain circumstances, ranged combat can be very effective and preferable to melee combat. Problem is, these situations are few and far between and are supreme exceptions.

I love how this thread has brought forth a seeping resentment from everyone towards THAT ranger who insists on being a bad example for ranged combat as a whole. I hope you're proud of yourself, Mr. Archetype.

I kite mobs into the melee fighters. Instead of kiting them away from the fight I run them through the fight. Its not too hard to get them hooked/tangled up in the melee scrum. I do this in most every fight with my ranger. Granted Im only currently level 8 but I didnt notice a huge difference in AI from start to endgame. Sometimes I kick on the speed boost and literally run perfect circles around mob, while shooting, its a trip.:)

One thing I have been forcing myself to do though is not walk into every fight with the preconceived notion that I WILL no matter what use my ranged combat(even though thats very much what he is geared tward). To say "Im not going to melee, period" is to deny the TWF part of your core class make-up. Thats really the only way to truly gimp a ranger imho. Use all the tools at hand.

Im definitely FOR making ranged combat what it is in PnP ROF wise and manyshot wise though.

[Sigmoid]

It seems to me that this discussion is not really about rangers, but about agro management. I've seen every class mismanage agro. Agro management is a key concept, that I don't think any of us always does well. I'm pretty good at not getting agro regardless of whether I'm ranging (ranger, or other class), using two weapons, or using a two hander (as barbarian) and generally can avoid major problems as a wizzy. As a two hander or a two weaponer or archer, I let the good melee types get attention then join in. I don't throw fireballs into open rooms unless absolutely necessary because the red bars on the melee types are going down. Then a fireball, or other area effect spell can pull agro and I have to surive for a while so the melees can get their act back in line. I'm not all that good at quickly taking agron away from others with melee or archery. In the interest of learning, I'd like to hear tricks others have on agro management.

[GrayOldDruid]

Yes,

I did explain the range, aggro management concept to him. I patiently explained why he was drawing to much aggro, why i needed him to stop, and what he could do to help me out. Mind you he did not even have a heal wand and ran out of pots on the first quest. He was using a +1 long bow of pure good which i realize does some damge but not when used like a maching gun...he was literraly changing targets after every 2-3 shots....left a lot of ticked off skellies alive. Yes I have seen some rangers used bows almost exclusively with wonderfull results...but it was very obvious he was not being effective...and i took the time to explain to him why.

Oh, yeah, I agree... with the bow, you pick one target, tap till it is no longer twitching and then move on to the next. In Delera's I usually skip my bow and go for a mace or something... then again, the Pure Good bow is more effective on the 'ghostly skeletons' and those immune to non-magical bashing weapons in Delera's. Still, that is a tough quest for a bow... too many bones.

[GrayOldDruid]

Perhaps it's this: by the time you reach level 14, the majority of the rangers are pretty good. Most of the horrible ones drop off the face of the earth between levels 6 and 10. But oh golly, if you dare to pick up an unknown ranger level 6 and under, you are really rolling the dice. That's the level range where you will find the auto-attack-always-on-and-I-draw-agro-from-all-mobs-using-bows rangers.

My auto attack is almost always on...

... then again, I don't usually target anything until Melee is in progress or I am asked to 'pull' it in - and then stay on one target until it dies. Auto attack is awesome (when used correctly).

I will admit though, that it took me till around level six to figure out the best tactics to use... :|
Also like to do caster support by targeting anything coming at the caster... whether that is Cleric or Wizzy or Sorc.

[5footStep]

I think the quickest way to being irritated in DDO is to mainline your strategy or playstyle as THE way to play/fight. Granted, we have all been in a quest where things went cataclysmic...

I think the habit of a ranger, and I have found myself fighting this urge, is to run when a mob fixates on me. Maybe its the thought of actually having that giant troll make a beeline for me and pass 5 of my teammates and bash my head in. The thing that is really annoying as a ranger is I can range a mob and do massive damage and become aggro magnet. However the way the ranger class is right now.. they shooting is all messed up. I shoot projectile A at the troll. Troll beelines for me and I have what would seem to be enough time to change to a shield. However I try to switch to a shield and guess what, the ranger bug/programming then does some fun stuff. Instead of letting me switch to my shield it fires off projectile B without me hitting my fire button. Troll is really NOT happy now, and his club is gaining momentum towards my cranium. Now I am screaming at my bow and and still trying to switch to my shield but guess what now.. NO SHIELD FOR YOU! Cause... we have to now RELOAD! ARRRGH! I am madly clicking my hotbar as my character now stops and reloads his weapon for the missing projectile I never fired in the first place. Mr. Troll has now managed to claw, claw and bite me. But hey.. fun isnt over people! I now am madly clicking the shield hotbar button and now my hands are at my waist in reload motions but with a shield and sword and I still don't get an attack. In the meantime Mr. Troll is also starting attack round Number 2 of Claw and Claw.

This is probably why your rangers may not be bothering to switch to a shield. Sometimes It just is really IMPOSSIBLE to have it work as intended. One thing I have found useful as of late. NOT running, just keep firing and when the mob comes to me (party trailing behind and swinging madly) I hit diplomacy! And viola!! Mr. Troll and I have a minor negotion. Mr. Troll says.."You know .. now that you phrase it that way.. I think I will go and smack your friend here instead of you! Toodleloo! Claw Claw Bite on Paladin!"

Also.. are you a tank that hates chasing after Mr. Troll as he fixates on Mr. RAnger? Welcome to the marvelous world of Intimidate! If you put skills into this you will draw Mr. Troll right off his beeline path of destruction for Mr. Ranger or Mr. Wizard and come back to play with you instead! Granted you may get more aggro than you plan on, but it leaves the rest of your party a free for all in sneak attacks and squishiless joy in range, spells or melee.


Diplomacy! Its not just for running counter clockwise around a chest three times before you open it.

[In_Like_Flynn]

I find Rangers to be more at risk in zerg groups. Every class has more to offer when tactics are used.

[Ironwind]

Disclaimer: I'm a new player

I started up a Ranger a couple days ago and really love the class.

I took Reptilians as Favored Enemy and TWF with a Reptilian Bane scimitar and a Reptilian Bane hand axe. I also have a Reptilian Bane longbow.

I ran WW with a group last night and after it was all over it occurred to me that the only time I used my bow was in the big rooms with the kobolds ranging down on us from platforms. I wondered if the people in my group thought I was a bad Ranger for using TWF dual Reptilian Bane weapons 95% of the time. I do have the PBS, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot feats, but WW just seems too cramped for lots of bow usage.

[Strakeln]

My auto attack is almost always on... The only time I use auto-attack is on Titan pillars, but I agree there is nothing inherently wrong with using auto-attack. What you do with your targetting when auto-attack is on is what really matters. :)

[GrayOldDruid]

Diplomacy! Its not just for running counter clockwise around a chest three times before you open it.

Okay, tried that. Troll said, "Well, now I think I not bash in your head. Now I flay you alive, pour salt on raw muscle, fart in your face, then bash in your head..."

My Charisma is rather low and Diplomacy relies on it (if I am not mistaken)... Not a viable option for me, especially at higher levels where CHR vs WIL is totally in their favor.

... and its cross-class, ergo costs more to raise.

[5footStep]

Okay, tried that. Troll said, "Well, now I think I not bash in your head. Now I flay you alive, pour salt on raw muscle, fart in your face, then bash in your head..."

My Charisma is rather low and Diplomacy relies on it (if I am not mistaken)... Not a viable option for me, especially at higher levels where CHR vs WIL is totally in their favor.

... and its cross-class, ergo costs more to raise.

This is true! Diplomacy does rely on charisma. I have a warforged ranger that has a CHA of 6 and I wear a diplomacy item, put skill point into it, and wear a CHA stat item. For the most part I still manage to diplo my way out of some sticky situations.. buying me time to get out my pesky shield LOL! yah... warforged ranger... scary isnt it?

[GrayOldDruid]

This is true! Diplomacy does rely on charisma. I have a warforged ranger that has a CHA of 6 and I wear a diplomacy item, put skill point into it, and wear a CHA stat item. For the most part I still manage to diplo my way out of some sticky situations.. buying me time to get out my pesky shield LOL! yah... warforged ranger... scary isnt it?

Still, the quickest way to be diplomatic about aggro is to drop them dead before they get to you. :D I've found that standing still and manyshot takes care of that most of the time.

[ErgonomicCat]

The only other thing I'll add is that at level 6, there are people who can't afford to stock themselves with healing wands. Until I ran in to someone that was doing a "Find the vet and get a lot of plat" thing, I was that guy. There are still a few new people coming to the game that don't have the funds built up yet, or people that just moved servers. ;)

But typically, that can be ascertained by a "Hey, guy with bow, do you have any wands?" The answer will likely be either "No, I can't afford them" or "Huh? Wands?" The former gets a sympathetic comment. The latter gets a sympathetic boot to the head!

[Zenako]

Well with a decent stack of plat (and a Haggle Fiend Bard) I make sure all my new toons have certain resources (like Cure Wands) available. I often hand them out. My Fighter (with one Cleric level) has often handed out wands to clerics in PUGs to help with healing.


But typically, that can be ascertained by a "Hey, guy with bow, do you have any wands?" The answer will likely be either "No, I can't afford them" or "Huh? Wands?" The former gets a sympathetic comment. The latter gets a sympathetic boot to the head!

To which I usually end up replying, yah, about one of each....Remove X, Resist Elements, CMW or CSW as appropriate. and clickies and pots and more...walking 7/11 of options.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Perhaps it's this: by the time you reach level 14, the majority of the rangers are pretty good. Most of the horrible ones drop off the face of the earth between levels 6 and 10. But oh golly, if you dare to pick up an unknown ranger level 6 and under, you are really rolling the dice. That's the level range where you will find the auto-attack-always-on-and-I-draw-agro-from-all-mobs-using-bows rangers.

True: I notice this a lot with low lvl Rgrs. The higher lvl ones have usually learned much better tactics and cooperation.

It just bothers me that so many people have bad opinions of rangers, when I notice so many bad players of other classes. And I also notice so many players of other classes that even though they have a good toon, just cannot "play well with others" (including playing well with Rangers).

Zerging Barbarians are my favorite pet peave.....especially when I play my cleric. Mellee types that have only one strategy: charge and let my HP and the cleric keep me alive.....I hate this type of play. At least the ranger, bow and run around style doesn't get them hurt (well, not if they are real good at running around anyway)
Most of those zerging barbs get huge kill counts and do massive DPS.........but I really dislike this kind of (lack of) strategy.
Or the arcane that doesn't know anything about CC. he buffs, he firewalls, and he FODs......so everyone likes him......but what he should be doing IMO is incapacitating (not killing) EVERY monster in the dungeon. I have a lvl9 Sor that can do this in most dungeons (Int undead, Vermin, and high Spell resistant monsters aside).....and it is super effective. The party takes almost no damage if i am allowed to "work my magic". But i can't keep up with the Barb who is so far out in front that he is out of range of my spells, and hits evertything with his 2Hnder even though i did somehow manage to hypnotise them from so far behind him.
And I've seen so many arcanes that seem like they are more worried about getting a higher kill count than the mellees.

These are the people I wish everyone would complain about: not the Rangers.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It seems to me that this discussion is not really about rangers, but about agro management. I've seen every class mismanage agro. Agro management is a key concept, that I don't think any of us always does well. I'm pretty good at not getting agro regardless of whether I'm ranging (ranger, or other class), using two weapons, or using a two hander (as barbarian) and generally can avoid major problems as a wizzy. As a two hander or a two weaponer or archer, I let the good melee types get attention then join in. I don't throw fireballs into open rooms unless absolutely necessary because the red bars on the melee types are going down. Then a fireball, or other area effect spell can pull agro and I have to surive for a while so the melees can get their act back in line. I'm not all that good at quickly taking agron away from others with melee or archery. In the interest of learning, I'd like to hear tricks others have on agro management.

If you want to know how to take agro from others with a bow, the most reliable way is to do a lot of damage (can be difficult). But there are some other tricks. When you see a mob, aim for an enemy caster and fire off a shot before anyone else in your party can get close.......do this to as many casters as possible, especially if they are perched up in some unmovable spot. They will immediately be agroed on you and will try to attack you, even though you are out of range of their spells. Targeting the far away guy keeps them from casting those same spells on the rest of your party. (casters are the bane of all fighters by the way....all that str and AC do nothing against flame strikes and holds)
Also, it is usually not to hard to pull agro off of the cleric in your group, since he is seldom doing any damage to the baddies. With the current AI, clerics do get agro from the start, but it shouldn't take many bow shots to pull the baddie off of him.
Arcanes are harder to save. They pulla lot of agro. Best thing I know after the fact is to switch to melee weapons and stand in the same spot as the arcane and start swinging. (difficult if he is running around, but now you know why so many melee types hate rangers. :)

[RavenStormclaw]

After reading all the posts on this thread that I started I suppose my biggest complaint really is aggro management as opposed to some rangers specifically. Its just that I've had a bad couple of weeks with some really terrible rangers...after having several months with some really good ones. I suppose all classes can be run bad...just some stand out: the zerging barb, the poor cleric, the mad wizard, and of course the ranger. I've seen all types. I have offered advice to all types. It was just this particular ranger who refused to listen. Rangers and paladins have the ability to use heal wands, rogues do as well if they have umd. Bards use them as well. This is a group game. Team effort. In the heat of battle go do your job guys (i mean the bard, ranger, and paladin) trust your cleric to keep you alive. But after the fight....use your abilities to self heal yourselves. Save the sp of the cleric and their wands for when it is really important.

While this is a group game...self reliance is important. I think most of us only ask that someone know what they can handle and don't exceed that unless there is no other choice. Know that there is more than one way to skin a cat. ie rangers can use swords to, barbarians can use shields, paladins can heal, wizs/sorc don't always have to kill everything buffing/cc work well to. The real point of this whole thread is that all characters are versatile to some degree, there is no one perfect way to run a toon. If something is not working.....CHANGE YOUR STRATEGY. I, on my sorc, have been asked more then once to change my actions because for particular quest x they just weren't working....I happily obliged. Change isn't a bad thing don't be afraid of it.

[TEK]

These are the people I wish everyone would complain about: not the Rangers.

um they do. or have you forgotten that on these forums people complain about


EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p:)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think the quickest way to being irritated in DDO is to mainline your strategy or playstyle as THE way to play/fight. Granted, we have all been in a quest where things went cataclysmic...

I think the habit of a ranger, and I have found myself fighting this urge, is to run when a mob fixates on me. Maybe its the thought of actually having that giant troll make a beeline for me and pass 5 of my teammates and bash my head in. The thing that is really annoying as a ranger is I can range a mob and do massive damage and become aggro magnet. However the way the ranger class is right now.. they shooting is all messed up. I shoot projectile A at the troll. Troll beelines for me and I have what would seem to be enough time to change to a shield. However I try to switch to a shield and guess what, the ranger bug/programming then does some fun stuff. Instead of letting me switch to my shield it fires off projectile B without me hitting my fire button. Troll is really NOT happy now, and his club is gaining momentum towards my cranium. Now I am screaming at my bow and and still trying to switch to my shield but guess what now.. NO SHIELD FOR YOU! Cause... we have to now RELOAD! ARRRGH! I am madly clicking my hotbar as my character now stops and reloads his weapon for the missing projectile I never fired in the first place. Mr. Troll has now managed to claw, claw and bite me. But hey.. fun isnt over people! I now am madly clicking the shield hotbar button and now my hands are at my waist in reload motions but with a shield and sword and I still don't get an attack. In the meantime Mr. Troll is also starting attack round Number 2 of Claw and Claw.

This is probably why your rangers may not be bothering to switch to a shield. Sometimes It just is really IMPOSSIBLE to have it work as intended. One thing I have found useful as of late. NOT running, just keep firing and when the mob comes to me (party trailing behind and swinging madly) I hit diplomacy! And viola!! Mr. Troll and I have a minor negotion. Mr. Troll says.."You know .. now that you phrase it that way.. I think I will go and smack your friend here instead of you! Toodleloo! Claw Claw Bite on Paladin!"

Also.. are you a tank that hates chasing after Mr. Troll as he fixates on Mr. RAnger? Welcome to the marvelous world of Intimidate! If you put skills into this you will draw Mr. Troll right off his beeline path of destruction for Mr. Ranger or Mr. Wizard and come back to play with you instead! Granted you may get more aggro than you plan on, but it leaves the rest of your party a free for all in sneak attacks and squishiless joy in range, spells or melee.


Diplomacy! Its not just for running counter clockwise around a chest three times before you open it.

God I hate trolls! For just that reason. I try to time the switch to sword/board just right, but usually they get to whack me three painful times no mater what I do......and if i switch too early they suddenly lose interest in me and turn around before they are close enough to whack with my sword.........real annoying.
Add to that the apparent delay in what I see on the screen and what the server thinks is going on......you get a troll that can somehow melee me from across the room, even though I long ago moved out of that spot he is now swinging in.... :(

Plus like you said I have to fight the urge to keep shooting and run backwards.......it is a very strong urge, and works great when soloing......but it makes the rest of your party furious and doesn't capitilise on the other party members strengths.

One of these days I'll try diplomacy again......when I first started this game I tried it a few times and got my head bashed in......running seems so much safer.
I find intimidate even more useless, anything I would want to bring closer to me is always out of range.....I guess I need to just stop in front of the group, wait till the baddie is about to pass me, and instead of trying to get one good swing in as he runs past me towards the squishy(Ranger :) ), use intimidate instead.......maybe that will actually work. So far I'm starting to think the best tank strategy is to walk backwards right behind the cleric..........that way, I know I will be able to mellee 90& of the mobs since that is where they will go as soon as they see even one person in the group.
"hey, guys! I see a zerging Barbarian heading our way!, lets run right past him and try to find a squishy!"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Disclaimer: I'm a new player

I started up a Ranger a couple days ago and really love the class.

I took Reptilians as Favored Enemy and TWF with a Reptilian Bane scimitar and a Reptilian Bane hand axe. I also have a Reptilian Bane longbow.

I ran WW with a group last night and after it was all over it occurred to me that the only time I used my bow was in the big rooms with the kobolds ranging down on us from platforms. I wondered if the people in my group thought I was a bad Ranger for using TWF dual Reptilian Bane weapons 95% of the time. I do have the PBS, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot feats, but WW just seems too cramped for lots of bow usage.

I'd say you are a great ranger (unless you were getting beat up all the time).....curious how you knew enough to take Reptilians on your first toon, and how you aquired all the reptilian bane weapons right away though.
Outstanding Harbor Ranger IMO.
"go the the market and buy a wand of CLW and you will be truly awesome!"

[Staedtler]

curious how you knew enough to take Reptilians on your first toon, and how you aquired all the reptilian bane weapons right away though.

The weapons are pretty easy to get if you collect Idols of Khyber.

[isldur]

A GOOD ranger would switch to melee and kill that mob in secs flat.

I wouldnt heal a ranger constantly kiting mobs and being a total NEWB ass either.

Really isn't always easy to switch while kiting, but you'd know that cause your not a NEWB ass either.

So a fighter who hasn't figured out how to use intimidate is what? Yes it has short range. Yes it has a cool down time. Don't you know the range by now? Don't worry I'll bring the mob back if I'm kiting it.

Just stay there. He's coming back. PSSt when he runs by hit intimidate, don't just try and swing at him. Trust me he's plenty ****ed at me. Your one swing, if you hit probably won't change his mind but you saying something about his mother might.

And to all those you say well I won't heal him or he started it let him finish, that's not really team play. If that's the way you play then fine. I'll survive, I can heal, barkskin, resist and protect myself, fom myself, longstrider myself, sneak past mobs if i need to, and twf if the risk vs. reward is good. (I could probably use this more in pugs if fighters would use intimidate correctly) Run ahead I'll be fine, just don't mind me as I kite the mob past you time and time again. He's dying and I'm probably taking very little damage.

[Ironwind]

I'd say you are a great ranger (unless you were getting beat up all the time).....curious how you knew enough to take Reptilians on your first toon, and how you aquired all the reptilian bane weapons right away though.
Outstanding Harbor Ranger IMO.
"go the the market and buy a wand of CLW and you will be truly awesome!"

Thanks for the vote of support! :)

I got lucky with the bane weapons, I picked them all up pretty cheap. The only thing that I can figure is that the acid/fire/frost weapons are the things in demand, and I steer away from weapons that are racial, especially rapiers. I found a heavy pick of undead bane for super cheap, for example; I guess nobody uses picks.

I didn't know I could use cure wands until I was level 4 ranger, when I get my first spell. I found out this info from the Ranger forums today, so I plan to buy one when I get home.

Oh, I should mention that a veteran player gave me some starter plat when he found out I was brand new to the game. That helped tremendously.

[Aranticus]

edited


I am constantly amazed by the number of Rangers and pallies (also rogues past lvl4) who do not carry wands (CLW is cheap). I'm also amazed by the number of those classes that do carry wands but do not use them on others (or at least not until the cleric is OoM and even then only between fights).
All of my Rgrs and Pals will stop fighting and start healing if I notice people about to go down....it's not the prefered method, but I've saved the party like that many times.

edited

Something I noticed recently was the mephits in SC would run toward my Archer until I switched to melee weapons and then run away from me.......very annoying....but it wa easy to swiched back to my bow and after the first time they usually did not come running back toward me.

not every ranger u meet have high level alts, not every player you meet twink their toons, not every new player buys plat. yes if you have a high level alt, some plat to buy wands help alot but we need to be aware of the recent influx of returning or new players who simply do not have the plat to buy them

then again, pin not the blame on the wanding classes. i'm also surprised at how many non casting types who refuse to kit themselves out properly ie remove fear pots, lesser restore pots, etc at L14.... there is simply no excuse for not having these.

the mephits in SC goes for the player furthest away from the pillar. if you stand near the pillar, its unlikely to agro you first.... i'm surprised you do not know this well known fact....

[Aranticus]

Disclaimer: I'm a new player

I started up a Ranger a couple days ago and really love the class.

I took Reptilians as Favored Enemy and TWF with a Reptilian Bane scimitar and a Reptilian Bane hand axe. I also have a Reptilian Bane longbow.

I ran WW with a group last night and after it was all over it occurred to me that the only time I used my bow was in the big rooms with the kobolds ranging down on us from platforms. I wondered if the people in my group thought I was a bad Ranger for using TWF dual Reptilian Bane weapons 95% of the time. I do have the PBS, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot feats, but WW just seems too cramped for lots of bow usage.

i'm pleased to say, NO. :)

when you are higher up in levels you can be so destructive with your bow that melees dun even get to hit them.... at least for 20 seconds :D

as you level up, you get precise shot (allow u to shoot thru enemies), multishot (20s boost to shoot multiple arrows, 2 at BAB6, 3 at BAB 11) and improved precise shot (shoot all enemies between you and your target). i have been in senarios where the scene is a long sloping tunnel with 20 or so mobs. i'll target the 1st mob, run past everything to the end, agro-ing everything in the process, stop, hit multi shot and fire away. with the correct bows, they will all be dead when your party arrives.

you need alot of experience to be able to handle such a situation. risks are high but results splendid. gear is also important, especially the bow. for me, my fav are wounding of puncturing, holy burst of pure good and +4 flaming burst of pure good. these are my main killers

[Aranticus]

True: I notice this a lot with low lvl Rgrs. The higher lvl ones have usually learned much better tactics and cooperation.

It just bothers me that so many people have bad opinions of rangers, when I notice so many bad players of other classes. And I also notice so many players of other classes that even though they have a good toon, just cannot "play well with others" (including playing well with Rangers).

Zerging Barbarians are my favorite pet peave.....especially when I play my cleric. Mellee types that have only one strategy: charge and let my HP and the cleric keep me alive.....I hate this type of play. At least the ranger, bow and run around style doesn't get them hurt (well, not if they are real good at running around anyway)
Most of those zerging barbs get huge kill counts and do massive DPS.........but I really dislike this kind of (lack of) strategy.
Or the arcane that doesn't know anything about CC. he buffs, he firewalls, and he FODs......so everyone likes him......but what he should be doing IMO is incapacitating (not killing) EVERY monster in the dungeon. I have a lvl9 Sor that can do this in most dungeons (Int undead, Vermin, and high Spell resistant monsters aside).....and it is super effective. The party takes almost no damage if i am allowed to "work my magic". But i can't keep up with the Barb who is so far out in front that he is out of range of my spells, and hits evertything with his 2Hnder even though i did somehow manage to hypnotise them from so far behind him.
And I've seen so many arcanes that seem like they are more worried about getting a higher kill count than the mellees.

These are the people I wish everyone would complain about: not the Rangers.

zerging barbs are not half bad..... a zerging half barb bard (8bbn/6brd) is painful. low ac, low hp, low bab...... yah theres a turkey in Khyber thats like this... BAD.... :eek:

edit: his idea of team work is he fight you heal. i was the cleric, we were in BAM. each blackguard he took down too 3 heal spells...... when my 70 sp bb takes a few down in 20 seconds....

[GrayOldDruid]

Gear is also important, especially the bow. for me, my fav are wounding of puncturing, holy burst of pure good and +4 flaming burst of pure good. these are my main killers

(with a wide fixed grin) Where do you get all those wonderful bows?

I've really tried to pull good bows - the Serpentbranch is the best I've actually pulled from a chest or end reward.

[Zenako]

Well until you pull any of those, keep an eye out for the Silver Bow. It is VERY good and often can be found for a LOT less $$$. I have even picked up 2 at the weapon vendor in house D.

[Strakeln]

(with a wide fixed grin) Where do you get all those wonderful bows?

I've really tried to pull good bows - the Serpentbranch is the best I've actually pulled from a chest or end reward.Like the guy above me said, be on the lookout for the Silver Bow. It has a low min level and is found in the quest "The Church and the Cult" (I think... most people know it as "the Vampire Quest" - it has a rather difficult end battle for level-appropriate groups).

Here's a (possibly somewhat dated) list of the best bows... pulled it from a quick search on the forums, although I'm pretty sure someone had a newer version now:

1. 3856 = +3 Elemental Bow of Greater (Mob type) Bane
2. 3507 = +3 Bow of Greater (Mob Type) Bow
3. 2589 = +5 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Bow of Pure Good
4. 2451 = +5 Elemental Burst Bow of Pure Good (race restricted ML 12)
5. 2344 = Silver Bow (ML6)
6. 2327 = +4 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Bow of Pure Good
7. 2219 = +5 Bow of Righteousness
8. 2152 = +5 Elemental Burst Bow
9. 2097 = +3 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Burst of Pure Good
10. 2052 = +3 Holy Bow of Pure Good
11. 1943 = Tortured Livewood Bow

Notice how the first two bows are specific to monster type? #s 3 and 4 are really hard to find. But the Silver Bow can be found all over the place... in the quest, on the Auction, at the brokers. Plus the holy effect works against 95%+ of the enemies in the game. My ranger still uses hers all the time... and she has all the goodies a lil spoiled ranger could ever dream of desiring.

[GrayOldDruid]

Like the guy above me said, be on the lookout for the Silver Bow. It has a low min level and is found in the quest "The Church and the Cult" (I think... most people know it as "the Vampire Quest" - it has a rather difficult end battle for level-appropriate groups).

Here's a (possibly somewhat dated) list of the best bows... pulled it from a quick search on the forums, although I'm pretty sure someone had a newer version now:

1. 3856 = +3 Elemental Bow of Greater (Mob type) Bane
2. 3507 = +3 Bow of Greater (Mob Type) Bow
3. 2589 = +5 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Bow of Pure Good
4. 2451 = +5 Elemental Burst Bow of Pure Good (race restricted ML 12)
5. 2344 = Silver Bow (ML6)
6. 2327 = +4 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Bow of Pure Good
7. 2219 = +5 Bow of Righteousness
8. 2152 = +5 Elemental Burst Bow
9. 2097 = +3 (Holy/Axio/Anarchic) Burst of Pure Good
10. 2052 = +3 Holy Bow of Pure Good
11. 1943 = Tortured Livewood Bow

Notice how the first two bows are specific to monster type? #s 3 and 4 are really hard to find. But the Silver Bow can be found all over the place... in the quest, on the Auction, at the brokers. Plus the holy effect works against 95%+ of the enemies in the game. My ranger still uses hers all the time... and she has all the goodies a lil spoiled ranger could ever dream of desiring.

Right now I have a +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good and a (recently acquired) +4 Frost Longbow of backstabbing (which works well with my 3 levels of Rogue). I am currently searching for a way to get lots of Flame Arrows on hand... fire them from either bow and you get bouceaux dmg (I am guessing). Did some math on one thread here and my +3 GTCLBoPG has average damage of 25.15 per hit and the +4 FLBoBs will have average damage of 30.75 per hit. (both taking into account targets susceptible to their special damage and getting sneak attack) - and add 3.5 to each for shooting Flame Arrows (or acid arrows, etc)

[Kreaper]

You can also usually find a silver bow on the AH for next to nothing.


I think the best way to become a good player is to do a lot of solo/duo running. The only catch is that when you group you will have to change you tactics a bit. But I don't really consider that a problem. I am often surprised at how much easier I think most quests are than other players that have only ever played in groups. And no, I don't consider myself a l33t uber pwner (God I hate that. Learn to spell and you don't have to cover up your ignorance with digital graffiti.) power gamer at all.

[GrayOldDruid]

[EDIT] Nevermind... replied to a way too old post...

[rpasell]

Well until you pull any of those, keep an eye out for the Silver Bow. It is VERY good and often can be found for a LOT less $$$. I have even picked up 2 at the weapon vendor in house D.

Silver Bow is a must get for any ranged ranger IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The weapons are pretty easy to get if you collect Idols of Khyber.

True, but not usually on one toon. Now I do pass them down to new toons of mine, but it took a few dozen Ichons and set of arrows/bolts before I got the real weapons.......plus realized their value.
Maybe I'm just a slow learner......sold my first muckbane too. :(

[Talon_Moonshadow]

not every ranger u meet have high level alts, not every player you meet twink their toons, not every new player buys plat. yes if you have a high level alt, some plat to buy wands help alot but we need to be aware of the recent influx of returning or new players who simply do not have the plat to buy them

then again, pin not the blame on the wanding classes. i'm also surprised at how many non casting types who refuse to kit themselves out properly ie remove fear pots, lesser restore pots, etc at L14.... there is simply no excuse for not having these.

the mephits in SC goes for the player furthest away from the pillar. if you stand near the pillar, its unlikely to agro you first.... i'm surprised you do not know this well known fact....

Learn something new everyday. I assumed the SC mephits were just going after ranged guys, arcanes, or clerics. (seen a lot of monsters prefer these targets)

And you're right: many people do not have the money, and all classes would do well to be as self sufficent as possible.....But some wands are relitively cheap and can go a long way (at least if the group is fairly competant)

I've created toons on all the servers, many of which don't have a sugar daddy or big brother to help them out. The fighters really struggle with cash to buy pots. My fighters are poorer than my clerics actually. Seems i always get in a bad group right aftewr buying a bunch of potions. :(
My Pallies and rangers usually have to get by on CLW wands....but I do try to have at least one before going into a dungeon. CLW wands are pretty cheap. One lesser restore wand can last a long time. I'm not saying they should try to be a primary healer (although they could be on short quests, if the group is careful) but they should at least try to have one wand for emergencies. (I will admit that not all of my toons take my own advice though.......mana is cheap, anything else takes money, sometimes a lot of it)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

beg to differ but i feel that ranged rangers can help a group in other ways too. i have been in groups where the melees could not handle the mobs. so after a particularly bad battle i gave the following instructions:

1. form a wall
2. i move up agro mobs
3. kite mobs into wall
4. tanks hit 1 mob trapped in wall
5. i kite other mobs away
6. rinse and repeat

using this tactic i was able to make several contributions. the use of range weapons esp destuction and other debuffing weapons made it easy for the melees to handle the mobs. by kiting the rest of the mobs and using speed boost, i ensured that damage taken by the group is lowered thus making it easy for the cleric. teamwork isnt about adapting to the strength of the group. its about using everyone's strength to contribute....

I'm sure everyone here has seen many near party wipes on the Ogre in WW3. I've made a bunch of lowbie toons on every server and it is the same thing every time. Open door, kill kobolds, charge ogre (who is standing in plain view ignoring the party), get severly beat up by Ogre.
I did WW with just my Fighter4 and my daughter's Ranger3. I made sure she had wands and I had pots.
When we got to that room, I shieldblocked the door and told my daughter to range the Ogre.........the Ogre died and we didn't loos a single hit point.
Surprises me that few people use this tactic. (I'll admit they sometime use it with arcanes, STK, VON3)

[GrayOldDruid]

Silver Bow is a must get for any ranged ranger IMO.

Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

I would have to actually get one to be sure, but I think my +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good does slightly better because of the +1 to hit advantage, the Silver Longbow has a +4.15 average damage per hit advantage but, Holy affects fewer enemies than Pure Good.

... dang... yes, I need this bow... I think I will be running the Church and the Cult tonight...

[rpasell]

Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

I would have to actually get one to be sure, but I think my +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good does slightly better because of the +1 to hit advantage, the Silver Longbow has a +4.15 average damage per hit advantage but, Holy affects fewer enemies than Pure Good.

... dang... yes, I need this bow... I think I will be running the Church and the Cult tonight...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124462


Expanded crit range does a lot to the bow, it's min level 6, and if you don't have an Axiomatic Burst of Pure Good (or maybe Transmuting of Pure Good) is easily the best bow for the Demon Queen.

Oh, and using +3 Sturdy Denith arrows negates your +1 to hit advantage.

[Strakeln]

Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

I would have to actually get one to be sure, but I think my +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good does slightly better because of the +1 to hit advantage, the Silver Longbow has a +4.15 average damage per hit advantage but, Holy affects fewer enemies than Pure Good.

... dang... yes, I need this bow... I think I will be running the Church and the Cult tonight...It's all about the crits. Many rangers, especially those who focus to some degree on ranged combat, will have Improved Crit: Ranged. Since the Silver Bow is the *only* bow in the game that is "naturally keen" (expanded crit range without the keen effect), the improved crit: ranged feat will expand this to a 17-20 crit threat range. Then factor in the 1d10 base damage, things start to add up in a hurry.

Unless you can find any of the below bows (taken from link above, and they are not easy to find), then the Silver bow will be your best general use bow.

8. 4040 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst of Pure Good
9. 3858 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good
10. 3705 = +4 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good

In fact, assuming my math is right, if you have +5 arrows, then the Silver Bow winds up just a few points below #8. Not that you would carry +5 arrows around, simply not enough backpack space once you get the House D arrows.

[Cupcake]

Learn something new everyday. I assumed the SC mephits were just going after ranged guys, arcanes, or clerics. (seen a lot of monsters prefer these targets)

And you're right: many people do not have the money, and all classes would do well to be as self sufficent as possible.....But some wands are relitively cheap and can go a long way (at least if the group is fairly competant)

I've created toons on all the servers, many of which don't have a sugar daddy or big brother to help them out. The fighters really struggle with cash to buy pots. My fighters are poorer than my clerics actually. Seems i always get in a bad group right aftewr buying a bunch of potions. :(
My Pallies and rangers usually have to get by on CLW wands....but I do try to have at least one before going into a dungeon. CLW wands are pretty cheap. One lesser restore wand can last a long time. I'm not saying they should try to be a primary healer (although they could be on short quests, if the group is careful) but they should at least try to have one wand for emergencies. (I will admit that not all of my toons take my own advice though.......mana is cheap, anything else takes money, sometimes a lot of it)

Ever since I moved Cuppcake off Argo I am having money issues also.

I do have a suggestion on a possible solution. Make a bard.

That is what I did and she is totally spec'd for haggle. At lvl 3 her haggle with no items is already up to 17.

On Ghallanda my lvl 9 bard's haggle is 35, I know I can get it higher. I can buy cure serious wands for 10k gp and raise dead scrolls for 6k gp.

I keep meaning to send sellable items to her to sell from my other characters but I keep forgetting since she gets better prices.

[Cupcake]

Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

I would have to actually get one to be sure, but I think my +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good does slightly better because of the +1 to hit advantage, the Silver Longbow has a +4.15 average damage per hit advantage but, Holy affects fewer enemies than Pure Good.

... dang... yes, I need this bow... I think I will be running the Church and the Cult tonight...

Having a lvl 14 12/2 ranger fighter, to be honest, I am not that thrilled with the Silver Bow. I have better, though Cuppcake is in no way uber. I just don't care that much for the performance of the Silver Bow.

[Cupcake]

It's all about the crits. Many rangers, especially those who focus to some degree on ranged combat, will have Improved Crit: Ranged. Since the Silver Bow is the *only* bow in the game that is "naturally keen" (expanded crit range without the keen effect), the improved crit: ranged feat will expand this to a 17-20 crit threat range. Then factor in the 1d10 base damage, things start to add up in a hurry.

Unless you can find any of the below bows (taken from link above, and they are not easy to find), then the Silver bow will be your best general use bow.

8. 4040 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst of Pure Good
9. 3858 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good
10. 3705 = +4 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good

In fact, assuming my math is right, if you have +5 arrows, then the Silver Bow winds up just a few points below #8. Not that you would carry +5 arrows around, simply not enough backpack space once you get the House D arrows.

First, When I comment in threads like this its from personal experience, not to argue or anything.

Cuppcake has weapon focus ranged and improved crit ranged. I still do better using my +5 icyburst LB (forgot of what). I have various +3 and +4 bows and just the one +5. Still does better for me than the Silver Bow.

[rpasell]

Ever since I moved Cuppcake off Argo I am having money issues also.

I do have a suggestion on a possible solution. Make a bard.

That is what I did and she is totally spec'd for haggle. At lvl 3 her haggle with no items is already up to 17.

On Ghallanda my lvl 9 bard's haggle is 35, I know I can get it higher. I can buy cure serious wands for 10k gp and raise dead scrolls for 6k gp.

I keep meaning to send sellable items to her to sell from my other characters but I keep forgetting since she gets better prices.

Those collectable turn ins in House D for the stackable +3 CHA pots will help too, and free.


First, When I comment in threads like this its from personal experience, not to argue or anything.

Cuppcake has weapon focus ranged and improved crit ranged. I still do better using my +5 icyburst LB (forgot of what). I have various +3 and +4 bows and just the one +5. Still does better for me than the Silver Bow.


The difference betwwen your Icy Burst, and the Silver bow over 100 rounds of combat is 500 points of damage or 5/round. Part of that advantage depends on crits, so you really won't notice too much of a difference in real time.

[Cupcake]

Those collectable turn ins in House D for the stackable +3 CHA pots will help too, and free.

Without a doubt.

[Strakeln]

First, When I comment in threads like this its from personal experience, not to argue or anything.

Cuppcake has weapon focus ranged and improved crit ranged. I still do better using my +5 icyburst LB (forgot of what). I have various +3 and +4 bows and just the one +5. Still does better for me than the Silver Bow.I hear ya on going with personal experience over mathematical formulas. There are often things that we don't consider initially, such as attack speed of different weapons (Greataxes vs Greatswords, for instance).

I've owned a few bows like the one you mention, they all "felt" less effective than the silver bow (to me). Currently, barring immunities, I only have two "DPS" bows that I use besides the Silver Bow: a +5 acid longbow of righteousness and a +4 acid longbow of greater abberation bane. The former feels like it does a bit less than the Silver Bow, the latter feels like it does a bit more (to abberations).

You know, it's possible that the 1d10 roll leans more to the left than a 1d8 roll. There's no such thing as truly random numbers in the world of computers... perhaps the DDO RNG favors smaller dice. What I mean by this is that it is possible that the average of 1000 1d8 rolls is 5.1 while the average of 1000 1d10 rolls is 4.9.

If you decide to investigate this further (say, by tallying up a bunch of attacks with both bows), let me know. I'd be interested in hearing the results.

Edit: one thing to consider: favored enemies. I don't often think about which enemy type I'm attacking, but that could easily make a less powerful weapon zoom right by a more powerful one.

[Tresha_D'Artet]

[QUOTE=GrayOldDruid;1433383]Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

YES! silver longbow, i know lots of folks have done numerous "real damage" posts of several bows...and regardless of those posts, in my opinion, the silver longbow is STILL one of my personal favorite bows, 2 rangers 1 capped, 1 almost capped, silver longbow right on quickbar next to almost any other bow in the game- excluding raid bows which i dont have yet :(

i personally dont go by the posts- i look at them, just dont let them persuade me- when someone is comparing this bow to that bow to that bow to that bow. ive seen the damage numbers my rangers get and have compared with the others bows i have.
although...do your own comparisons and decide for yourself. remember, the crit range with improved crit- ranged will be 17-20/x3 add in many shot and str modifiers, types of arrows used types of mobs your shooting...lots of things to be considered, but again, in my honest opinion the silver longbow - ml6- is STILL one of the best bows in the game.

[ErgonomicCat]

The weapons are pretty easy to get if you collect Idols of Khyber.

And I typically find them on the AH for under 600 plat.

I've rerolled so many times I think I literally have or have had a reptilian bane of every non-exotic weapon type, except maybe heavy pick.. I would put them up for 2k, and they wouldn't sell. Now I'm to the point of just giving them to people.

Currently, I have:
Longbow
Shortbow
Short Swords x3
Light Pick
Light Hammer
Sickle
Longsword
Greatsword
Maul
Greataxe.
Rapier

And those are just the ones I've kept around. That pretty much insures that whatever type of character I roll, I'll have a reptillian bane weapon ready to go.

[Zenako]

I have found few mobs where another whole Bow type becomes more effective. I have been working on my +3 Transmuting LB of pure Good the last few nights. Out on Axtarias Island those Razor cats will die pretty easy with the transumting bow, since it gets past the DR.

In my experience, if I had to choose one 24/7 bow = Silver. If I have specific foes ahead, special ones come into play (Such as transmuting, Disruption, smiting). I still pack a number of elemental bows, but find I do not use them very often and I am considering how useful they now are to keep in the backpack. Yup, those trolls do not like the +5 Acid Longbow, but I still kill them as fast with the Silver and its increased Crit chances.

[Bekki]

My 2 Cp's
Here are some of the weapons My Rogue / Ranger has.

+3 Acid Composite Longbow.
(In search of one that is a combo of Acid or Fire and Pure Good)
(And For when she has to mele)

+1 Flaming Long sword of Pure Good
+2 Acid Long Sword of Pure Good

(For Off hand) she also carries an + 1 Acid Kukri of Deception
and a +2 Flaming Kukri of Righteousness.

In addition she has some Frost and Ghost touch weapons as well.

It never hurts to be Careful.

My theory has always been to think of the party overall.
She may be a trapfinding, Trap Disabling ,Lock opening,
Sneaky, little Ranged atttack Machine.

But, if I (meaning Peniafrancia) get squished; I am no use to the party...

So for my little rogue/ ranger; I chose to plan for having to go toe-toe if need be.

The key is to find out what works, find out what doesn't; and improvise on the Fly!

[spifflove]

Well the problem here is twofold. One you need to organize your groups better. A good group consists of:
1. cleric
2. Fighter or paladin
3. Barbarian or twf (ranger)
4. Rogue
5. Arcane caster
6. Anything you want (bard prefered, but may be a 7rogue/7wizard, for example, or a bow user)

Let the 6 man do what he wants. You do not have to heal him. If he asks why you are not healing him explain to him that he is using up too many resources and needs to see to his own healing just like a warforged needs heal himself/herself.

[rpasell]

Well the problem here is twofold. One you need to organize your groups better. A good group consists of:
.....

Well, the problem HERE is one fold, you forget to say "In my opinion".

I was in a Titan run that was 2 Rangers, a Cleric, and a Fighter. That was a good group.

DQ run that was Wizard, Cleric, Ranger x 2, Fighter. That was a good group.

Many groups that were not in the mold you picked that were good.

IMO, a good group is a group that completes, and has fun doing it.

[Cupcake]

I hear ya on going with personal experience over mathematical formulas. There are often things that we don't consider initially, such as attack speed of different weapons (Greataxes vs Greatswords, for instance).

I've owned a few bows like the one you mention, they all "felt" less effective than the silver bow (to me). Currently, barring immunities, I only have two "DPS" bows that I use besides the Silver Bow: a +5 acid longbow of righteousness and a +4 acid longbow of greater abberation bane. The former feels like it does a bit less than the Silver Bow, the latter feels like it does a bit more (to abberations).

You know, it's possible that the 1d10 roll leans more to the left than a 1d8 roll. There's no such thing as truly random numbers in the world of computers... perhaps the DDO RNG favors smaller dice. What I mean by this is that it is possible that the average of 1000 1d8 rolls is 5.1 while the average of 1000 1d10 rolls is 4.9.

If you decide to investigate this further (say, by tallying up a bunch of attacks with both bows), let me know. I'd be interested in hearing the results.

Edit: one thing to consider: favored enemies. I don't often think about which enemy type I'm attacking, but that could easily make a less powerful weapon zoom right by a more powerful one.

without a doubt. FE does play a big part.

[Cowdenicus]

Everybody knows though that barbarians are way cooler than rangers.

"Look at me, I am a ranger, I am going to float like a butterfly, blah....."

Give me a real class, Barbarian, Sroceror, Clerics and Bards. That is all. :eek::D

[Cupcake]

Everybody knows though that barbarians are way cooler than rangers.

"Look at me, I am a ranger, I am going to float like a butterfly, blah....."

Give me a real class, Barbarian, Sroceror, Clerics and Bards. That is all. :eek::D

*Shoots you with a greater cow bane arrow. :D

[Cowdenicus]

*Shoots you with a greater cow bane arrow. :D

Ouch that actually hurt.......

/Throws a PIE at cupcake.

[Zenako]

*Shoots you with a greater cow bane arrow. :D

mmmm, don't you really mean....

Shoots you with ManyShotted Inproved Critical Silver bow nocked Greater Cow Bane Arrows!!! Mondo serious Ouchy!!!!:eek:

[Gratch]

Well, the problem HERE is one fold, you forget to say "In my opinion".

I was in a Titan run that was 2 Rangers, a Cleric, and a Fighter. That was a good group.

DQ run that was Wizard, Cleric, Ranger x 2, Fighter. That was a good group.

Many groups that were not in the mold you picked that were good.

IMO, a good group is a group that completes, and has fun doing it.

You tell 'em Rpasell. Good players make the group. Class has very little to do with it. Noone's ever accused me of having class.

BTW, can you um, die, and get to the switch with the other rangers. The guild leader wants to tank the Reaver underneath the spikes. Plus I think he's running his wizard and doesn't realize it... again.

It's always best to run with people who know how to play their toons. Unlike me... who um... enfeebled Cinnis at the end of Inferno elite and got the comment: "Did you just use the Staff of Arcane Power to enfeeble the boss?" "Yeah..." "But you used wands and spell points to put out all the flames?" *MASSIVE DAWNING REALIZATION OCCURS* "Um... Oops. Good Point."

[rpasell]

BTW, can you um, die, and get to the switch with the other rangers. The guild leader wants to tank the Reaver underneath the spikes. Plus I think he's running his wizard and doesn't realize it... again.



"Dang it Strump, you ARE NOT playing Spawnd stop trying to hit him with Cloudburst and put up some dancing balls."

[Mercules]

Well the problem here is twofold. One you need to organize your groups better. A good group consists of:
1. cleric
2. Fighter or paladin
3. Barbarian or twf (ranger)
4. Rogue
5. Arcane caster
6. Anything you want (bard prefered, but may be a 7rogue/7wizard, for example, or a bow user)

Let the 6 man do what he wants. You do not have to heal him. If he asks why you are not healing him explain to him that he is using up too many resources and needs to see to his own healing just like a warforged needs heal himself/herself.

See... I thought a good group consisted of:
1. Me
2. A Friend
3. Another Friend
4. Oh... right another Friend

The other night it was a Clr X/Pal 1(friend) and Clr X/Rog 1 running around, THAT was a good group. Everyone could self heal/buff. Traps were disabled, doors/chests picked, mobs tanked, CC being called upon when needed, and I had fun.

[rpasell]

You know what would be fun to try sometime? Get 6 rangers in a group, and do a quest where mobs tend to line up behind each other (Feast or Famine comes to mind). Then just take turns alternating many shot, while each ranger is is some state of many shot cool down.

[Mercules]

You know what would be fun to try sometime? Get 6 rangers in a group, and do a quest where mobs tend to line up behind each other (Feast or Famine comes to mind). Then just take turns alternating many shot, while each ranger is is some state of many shot cool down.

Apparently in Beta(had to upgrade my video card so I didn't get to take part in this) a few friends of mine had created an all Ranged Combat group. They were giggling because groups of giants a level above them were not making it into melee range. I wonder why Range is less effective than melee now?;)

[rpasell]

Apparently in Beta(had to upgrade my video card so I didn't get to take part in this) a few friends of mine had created an all Ranged Combat group. They were giggling because groups of giants a level above them were not making it into melee range. I wonder why Range is less effective than melee now?;)

I'm not sure you could get a group of 6 ranged rangers at the same time now anyway. Rangers suck after all ;)

[Mercules]

I'm not sure you could get a group of 6 ranged rangers at the same time now anyway. Rangers suck after all ;)

Who said they had to be Rangers? I've got a Fighter specialized in Ranged Combat. :) Oh wait, I was thinking of picking up Paladin or Ranger for wand usage... one level.... Hmmmmm...

[Thame]

This whole thread has been about bashing on rangers or how people should play them which is lame to begin with but no one seems to be posting the good experiences about ranged combat, such as.....

Air room in POP, 4 of the 5 are dead inside with 3 aireleys still floating around, my RANGE BUILD rogue finishes killing the room due to good RANGE DPS and evasion keeping him from being knocked down or getting hit by lightning.

Wait.........rangers can do the same thing...............play you people the way u want, dont listen to whiners on here saying you should do this or that......

This whole threads a joke......

[Cowdenicus]

This whole thread has been about bashing on rangers or how people should play them which is lame to begin with but no one seems to be posting the good experiences about ranged combat, such as.....

Air room in POP, 4 of the 5 are dead inside with 3 aireleys still floating around, my RANGE BUILD rogue finishes killing the room due to good RANGE DPS and evasion keeping him from being knocked down or getting hit by lightning.

Wait.........rangers can do the same thing...............play you people the way u want, dont listen to whiners on here saying you should do this or that......

This whole threads a joke......

Of course had my cleric been in there, it would never have gotten to that situation.

[Kreaper]

Who said they had to be Rangers? I've got a Fighter specialized in Ranged Combat. :) Oh wait, I was thinking of picking up Paladin or Ranger for wand usage... one level.... Hmmmmm...


My main is a 28 pt Fighter 1/ Pal 1/ Rgr 1 Dorf (Will get another level of Rgr at cap raise for bow speed.)
I also have a 32 pt Ftr 12/ Rgr 2 Dorf.
A 32 pt Barb 14 Dorf
A 32 pt Barb 9/Ftr2 WF

My current, still solo toy is:
A 32 pt Ftr 2/ Rgr 7 (Tons of fun.)

(Yes, I prefer melee. I have a Sorc and have tried other casters but I like starting at a distance and then getting up close and personal.)


I have other builds I just don't play much for various reasons and there have easily been at least fifty that were re-rolled. (I'm addicted to rolls. ANY rolls. Brown and serve. Sourdough. Yeast. Re. ) (And my habit is costing me a fortune in plat!) I think your best bet is a level of Rgr for bow strength. I just don't see the usefulness of one level of Pally any more. Two levels of Rgr is even better. (I am assuming, because of your post, that you have Imp Crit ranged.) Then, if you took rapid shot as a feat, you can respec as it is granted at Rgr lev2. That is just my junkie opinion so take it for what it's worth.


Oh yeah, all of them except the Rgr have been respeced for THF. For now, the Ranger does both (THF and TWF).

[Kreaper]

Everybody knows though that barbarians are way cooler than rangers.

"Look at me, I am a ranger, I am going to float like a butterfly, blah....."

Give me a real class, Barbarian, Sroceror, Clerics and Bards. That is all. :eek::D


Try a strength based Ranger. Mine is just as badass as any of my Barbs or Ftrs have ever been. The difference being self buffing. It was good enough to SOLO full House P favor at lev 6/7 for the pendant and that included TR elite and Thrennal West. If that ain't "real" enough for ya, maybe you need to be playing CoH so you can be a super hero... LOL :D


And stop wasting cake. There are starving Elves in Ethiopia that would do ANYTHING for some cake.

[Cowdenicus]

Try a strength based Ranger. Mine is just as badass as any of my Barbs or Ftrs have ever been. The difference being self buffing. It was good enough to SOLO full House P favor at lev 6/7 for the pendant and that included TR elite and Thrennal West. If that ain't "real" enough for ya, maybe you need to be playing CoH so you can be a super hero... LOL :D


And stop wasting cake. There are starving Elves in Ethiopia that would do ANYTHING for some cake.

Why be a superhero there, when I am THE SUPERHERO !11!!11!1!one1! here. :eek::D

[Kreaper]

Why be a superhero there, when I am THE SUPERHERO !11!!11!1!one1! here. :eek::D



Faster than a speeding mephit...

More powerful than flatulent troglodyte...

Able to drink a Dirty Kobold in a single gulp...

LOOK!

In the air!

It's a wraith!

It's a dragon!

IT'S COWDENICUS!!!

[Ironwind]

Faster than a speeding mephit...

More powerful than flatulent troglodyte...

Able to drink a Dirty Kobold in a single gulp...


LAWL

[Perceval418]

Ive said it before, ill say it again. The problem with rangers is that they are a class that A) People with almost no MMO experience are attracted to cause they watched or read LOTR one to many times and B) Are easy to mess up if you dont understand your classes capabilities. So you encounter alot of nerfed, lame, noob rangers who dont know when to use thier most useful spells, dont even attempt to heal themselves, cant control thier aggro and range things the second they can click them and proceed to run away from the mob, causing the whole group to chase after them while they feeblely and pathetically die at the hands of a mob that would have been dead 30 seconds ago if it werent for the cowardly ranger running and shooting thier target...

grr...

But rangers pwn when they are good and anyone who wont invite a ranger because of this possibility also doesnt understand the usefulness of the class.

[cucukacho]

My 3rd, latest and favorite toon is a Ranger. I am having a ball with her, i think its probably the best classes to run. Here's how i run her, if you think i am doing it wrong tell me. I view a ranger as a support toon. We can't nuke, but we can provide healing, range, melee and sneak options.

When in a party i will target the closest target if its a large mob as to not drag too much agro. I will hit them with a cursespewing bow to soften them up. Or i might hit them with a paralyzer when they get to my front line. I have a special bow for those nasty giants... Let the blockheads do the heavy lifting i say....

If i draw their agro and they get past the front line, i whip out my weapon set that fits best and start swinging, first i take a rage pot, haste, and speed boost. I usually get out of any mess i create. When we are done with the fight, i take out my wand and heal myself, and top off the other party members.

Overall, rangers have to be mindful that they are not front line toons, we are support. Know your place and your abilities, strengths and weaknesses.


One last note, I don't care which toon you run, you should always have heal pots.

[AkromaAoW]

I believe that a well-built ranger type can do many things - including frontline. Generally, Eriik will frontline if there are less than three other frontline types in the party, or if it seems like some extra frontline power is needed. If the frontline is covered, he might play support with utlilty weapons to soften mobs, act as trap monkey, or be the auxilary healer.

Overall, it's the makeup of the party that determines what role Eriik plays. It's kind of funny, because different parties can get completely different views of Eriik depending on their makeup and need...

[Vengenance]

Ok,

I like the ranger class...have run with some very good one. However, lately I've run with some idiots. Please, please remember you (as rangers) can use something other then a bow..like wow perhaps a sword or mace. I bring this up because I finally had enpugh the other night. Was running delera's with my cleric. The ranger (level 6) never used anything but his bow...it was not a bane bow nor were his arrows. In fact it was nothing special at all. The guys kept drawing aggro...doing very little damage (we all know how well pierceing weapons work against skeletons) and generally was becoming a mana sponge. I repeatedly told him to stop and go with something more effective. He refused. Told the party leader he was being a drain and he asked him to stop. Finally I just gave up and stopped healing him. Of course he threw a stink..told him i was happy to run his stone to the shrine but until he listened to me i was not going to heal him. He never did listen just kept dying. Perhaps letting him die so much was bad but he had to learn a lesson. I know most who read this I will be preaching to the choir but if even one young ragner learns somethinhg I will be happy.

Raven

Dude, there are crappy players that play each class, believe me I've played with lots of terrible clerics, awful fighters & barbararians, useless rogues, gimped casters and worthless rangers. You can apply your title to each class and it would be true. This isn't a class problem it's a player problem, and if you don't like the way someone is playing suggest an alternative, if that doesn't work then leave the party. It's very rude to throw the entire class under the bus when in fact it's a player problem and not a class problem.

My 2 CP

[GrayOldDruid]

Dude, there are crappy players that play each class, believe me I've played with lots of terrible clerics, awful fighters & barbararians, useless rogues, gimped casters and worthless rangers. You can apply your title to each class and it would be true. This isn't a class problem it's a player problem, and if you don't like the way someone is playing suggest an alternative, if that doesn't work then leave the party. It's very rude to throw the entire class under the bus when in fact it's a player problem and not a class problem.

My 2 CP

My least favorite - experienced last night - is the loud-mouth barbarian sqeeking out "oh, this is such an easy quest, no problem" then zerging into battle and dead in three whacks. Barbarians can deal DPS, but they are punching bags and mana sponges in the end (at least when played poorly). My Ranger can jump into combat and deal just as much damage, yet, Miraculously be at 3/4 health or more when its over. Hey! Barbarian! ARMOR CLASS!! GET IT!

[Mercules]

My Ranger can jump into combat and deal just as much damage, yet, Miraculously be at 3/4 health or more when its over.

And then heal that 1/4 up with wands and/or spells.

[Zenako]

Rangers are FUll BAB class and can easily be a "front line fighter" if they want to be. Rangers have extreme synergy with rogues and can pick up a very useful subset of the rogue class skills very easily. Jareko 11Ran/2Rogue can find and disable almost any trap and pick any lock. I have Spot skills rogues would dream about (extra +10 from Wild Instincts Ranger self only spell). Stats looking like this as I recall, Male Elf, Str 20 Dex 30 Con 16 Int 20 WIS 18 CHA 10. He was my first character so was only 28 points. Has some good gear now. Has Spot, Search, Open Locks, Disable Traps skill ranks all maxed out. Has enough points in Swim (can swim upstream in Crucible), Hide, Move Silent to sneak past most anything.

I have been playing him a lot the past few weeks (almost to 14th now). In party, Barkskins on all who need them, and Jump and Elemental Resists. (Ranger resists are only 10 spell points, so that means the Weapon of the Magi I have in my hand hear is good for 10 spells on party members before cracking into my "real spell points". Since I do not intend to go into battle with that mace, it is really a use it or lose it scenario. I have done the Trap in Cabal on Normal. With Manyshot cranked, can kill things safely with great ease. I have many two weapon combos for close in fighting. Due to some good pulls recently, I have some of the special bow types (Disrupt, Para, etc), but still hold the Silver as the default.

As for Delaras, find a good Transmuting bow. That should help. I have found I kill many of the Undead out in the orchard faster with my +3 Tramsuting of Pure Good Bow than I do hoping they get affected by Disruption. (Toss in a stack of Adamantine arros from house D and you can rip into those stupid Flesh Golem out there pretty well too. Those guys are almost impossible to smite it seems.)

[Strakeln]

Overall, rangers have to be mindful that they are not front line toons, we are support. Know your place and your abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Not all rangers are front line toons. But they certainly can't be excluded from the job. My ranger is almost exclusively on the front line, TWFing. You don't even want to know how few hitpoints she has. However, she is incredibly tough to hit.

Are there some things that can clean her clock? Sure, but they're clean anyone else's too.

I haven't made one, but I think a well-built str-based dorf ranger could be an excellent front line combatant.

[Yaga_Nub]

(Toss in a stack of Adamantine arros from house D and you can rip into those stupid Flesh Golem out there pretty well too. Those guys are almost impossible to smite it seems.)

Ummmmmmmm, doesn't a transmuting bow sort of make this unnecessary?

[Zenako]

Ummmmmmmm, doesn't a transmuting bow sort of make this unnecessary?

Yah but I was using the Adamantine Arrows with my Silver Bow, and did not make that clear. Switched to Transmuting once I ran through the 2 stacks of 100 I had on hand.

[RavenStormclaw]

Perhaps you should re-read the title of my original post...it says "some rangers"...that therefore implies a subset of the class and not the whole class. Those that it applies to know who they are...those that don't are actually in agreement with me. Read and understand before telling me I am rude for condeming a whole class when in fact I did not.


Dude, there are crappy players that play each class, believe me I've played with lots of terrible clerics, awful fighters & barbararians, useless rogues, gimped casters and worthless rangers. You can apply your title to each class and it would be true. This isn't a class problem it's a player problem, and if you don't like the way someone is playing suggest an alternative, if that doesn't work then leave the party. It's very rude to throw the entire class under the bus when in fact it's a player problem and not a class problem.

My 2 CP

[Riorik]

Since when were you god of how someone should play their character?

You're right, he's not - however wouldn't this also apply to the Ranger in question who was demanding to be healed?
I'd say it's always a negotiation - they tried and failed so each did their own thing - sadly, it was a poorer choice for the Ranger.


Perhaps it wasnt the ranger, perhaps your a shoddy cleric with too low sp or poor choice of feats, or just cant play a cleric very well, perhaps you should just hang it up or delete your character.............its a double edged sword. Not everyone who plays a cleric is good at it.

Sweet, flame bait!


My money is on Thame being the ranger in question !!!!!!!:D

That's my guess.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

(with a wide fixed grin) Where do you get all those wonderful bows?

I've really tried to pull good bows - the Serpentbranch is the best I've actually pulled from a chest or end reward.

AH with a platfarmers allowance! :)
I've pulled a silverlongbow......then sold it (what an idiot I was!)
Bought another much later on auction....and didn't even pay a lot for it. (I think rangers were very unpopular then)
Curse spewers seem to drop a lot on high lvl quests, but other than that the best I've got is a +1Holy of Puregood (use the +2 denieth arrows and it's ok.
Since I've been capped I've aquired curse spewers and ghost touch of puregood bows. No paralyzers or burst ones for me yet.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Silver Longbow ??

"Silver Longbow - +2 Longbow (1d10, 19-20/x3 crit), Holy"

I would have to actually get one to be sure, but I think my +3 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow of Pure Good does slightly better because of the +1 to hit advantage, the Silver Longbow has a +4.15 average damage per hit advantage but, Holy affects fewer enemies than Pure Good.

... dang... yes, I need this bow... I think I will be running the Church and the Cult tonight...

That's what I thought, and why I sold my forst one.......the crit range is what makes it so good.....especially if you have improved crit feat.....holy damage is ok, but too many things are immune to it. I have a ranged fighter who uses the silverlongbow as standard, but switches out for elementals/mephits/vermin etc.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have found few mobs where another whole Bow type becomes more effective. I have been working on my +3 Transmuting LB of pure Good the last few nights. Out on Axtarias Island those Razor cats will die pretty easy with the transumting bow, since it gets past the DR.

In my experience, if I had to choose one 24/7 bow = Silver. If I have specific foes ahead, special ones come into play (Such as transmuting, Disruption, smiting). I still pack a number of elemental bows, but find I do not use them very often and I am considering how useful they now are to keep in the backpack. Yup, those trolls do not like the +5 Acid Longbow, but I still kill them as fast with the Silver and its increased Crit chances.

I have a flaming burst LB of lesser vermin bane, that seems to take trolls down pretty fast. And a transmuter of parrying that I use on skellie/zombie types....but actually if the holy damage applies the silverLB might be better for the undead.

The crit range of the SLB especially with imp crit is what makes this bow stand out. And with muli-show on it does a lot of crits! For those brief 20secs, my ranged fighter is actually the best DPSer in the dungeon. Without it, I'm a distant third in the kill counts.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well the problem here is twofold. One you need to organize your groups better. A good group consists of:
1. cleric
2. Fighter or paladin
3. Barbarian or twf (ranger)
4. Rogue
5. Arcane caster
6. Anything you want (bard prefered, but may be a 7rogue/7wizard, for example, or a bow user)

Let the 6 man do what he wants. You do not have to heal him. If he asks why you are not healing him explain to him that he is using up too many resources and needs to see to his own healing just like a warforged needs heal himself/herself.

I sooooo disagree. Any group of any combination, with good players who work together and minimise any weaknesses will do just fine on most quests......(not all, but most)
It's a struggle if no one in the group can use wands....or raise dead maybe. But if you know what you have going into it and stock up on needed potions, you will do fine.

Done Tor with three Rgrs, 2 arcanes and a Clr twice now with no problems. Done Maze of madness with three clerics, no rogue, no arcane.....I think we even only had 5 total in the group, and we did great. Ran the end guy through three BBs and he didn't last long at all.

In fact the most fun runs I've been on have had the oddest party mixes. (usually several rangers in the groups though :) )

[rpasell]

I believe I posted this earlier in the thread, but since it seems to have come back to this point, I'll repost it.

For bow by bow (pun intended) breakdowns

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124462

for the attention challenged:

1. 5541 = +5 (+9) (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst Bow of Greater Bane
2. 5235 = +3* (+7) (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst Bow of Greater Bane
3. 5057 = +5 (+9)(Elemental) Burst Bow of Greater Bane
4. 5053 = +3* (+7) (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Greater Bane
5. 4751 = +3 (+7)(Elemental) Burst Bow of Greater Bane
6. 4608 = +3* (+7) Elemental Bow of Greater Bane
7. 4164 = +3* (+7) Bow of Greater Bane
8. 4040 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst of Pure Good
9. 3858 = +5 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good
10. 3705 = +4 (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good
11. 3632 = "Silver Bow" (+3* Holy, increased dmg and expanded crit range)
12. 3620= +3* (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Burst of Pure Good
13. 3552 = +3* (Axio/Anarchic/Holy) Bow of Pure Good
14. 3519 = "Unwavering Ardency" (+3* Cursespewing Slowburst, increased dmg)
15. 3407 = +5 True (Law/Chaos) Bow of Pure Good
16. 3112 = +5 Burst (Elemental) Bow
17. 2830 = +5 Longbow of Righteousness (assuming evil mob)
18. 2719 = "Tortured Livewood Bow" (+5 Melf's Acid Arrow effect)

* Denotes +3 Sturdy Deneith Arrow in +1/2/3 bow.
** If you can not use Pure Good effect weapons subtract 444 from the totals.
***Righteousness would add 254 for the totals, if you subtituted for P.G.


Pay particular attention to where the Silver Bow is in comparision to non-bane bows (i.e. 4th best "all around bow")

Throw some +5 arrows for even better comparison numbers. The caveat is that these are cumulative numbers over 100 shots, so the per strike difference isn't huge. The Silver Bow really shines with the higher crit range though.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This whole thread has been about bashing on rangers or how people should play them which is lame to begin with but no one seems to be posting the good experiences about ranged combat, such as.....

Air room in POP, 4 of the 5 are dead inside with 3 aireleys still floating around, my RANGE BUILD rogue finishes killing the room due to good RANGE DPS and evasion keeping him from being knocked down or getting hit by lightning.

Wait.........rangers can do the same thing...............play you people the way u want, dont listen to whiners on here saying you should do this or that......

This whole threads a joke......

I've long thought that you could build a rogue to do a lot of the same things rangers do.......plus Sneak Attack and UMD.

Playing a Rgr build has always left me no understanding peoples hatred of the air room in POP. Evasion and bows= no problem with air elementals. Get the whole party ranging them from diferent directions and I think it would be a snap.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I believe that a well-built ranger type can do many things - including frontline. Generally, Eriik will frontline if there are less than three other frontline types in the party, or if it seems like some extra frontline power is needed. If the frontline is covered, he might play support with utlilty weapons to soften mobs, act as trap monkey, or be the auxilary healer.

Overall, it's the makeup of the party that determines what role Eriik plays. It's kind of funny, because different parties can get completely different views of Eriik depending on their makeup and need...

Eriik, I think you were with Brinks and me (Talonkage) on one of those no tank Tor runs! And people thought we needed a tank....bah!
Rangers are awesome!

[spifflove]

Well, the problem HERE is one fold, you forget to say "In my opinion".

I was in a Titan run that was 2 Rangers, a Cleric, and a Fighter. That was a good group.

DQ run that was Wizard, Cleric, Ranger x 2, Fighter. That was a good group.

Many groups that were not in the mold you picked that were good.

IMO, a good group is a group that completes, and has fun doing it.

The other part of the problem (I was interrupted at work) is that you people are scaring away the noobs, who are the new blood that will sustain DDO. You are shooting yourselves in the foot and insuring an ever shrinking, increasingly incestious player pool. Congrats. Why not try to be a mentor instead?

[Lightdragon]

I am sick of these rangers are the only class in the game that cause problems posts. Truth be told, I've had quite a few ftrs, pallys, barbs, rogues, and bards that even though they weren't getting killed, they were not built well enough and were not doing enough to really help the party complete the quest. Please don't get me started on bad casters and clerics either. I'll never stop. The point I'm making is this-Why are you posting specifically about a ranged combatant? I have went through this quest many times with a wizard that did not switch out to halt undead. Whether you realize it or not, that wizard has just cost you hundreds of spell points in heals because he isn't really playing his character well. I've also seen tanks pull ahead when they should be finishing mobs and cause undue stress on the healer.

I'm not saying this ranger wasn't messing up. He was. But it's also possible others were messing up in your party and causing the quest to be more difficult and you weren't realizing it. Tanks moving forward too quickly, casters not controlling the situation well enough, and support characters not giving enough support to make up for the lack of dps they do can also all lead to undue stress on the healer. This will happen quite often during your advancement through the levels and the only thing you can do is heal the best you can, burn some wands to get to the shrines, and ask for donations afterward. It is the life of a healer and unfortunately it's not a perfect one. But make sure to post about the idiots that aren't rangers also. Keep it fair or it will look like you are picking on them.

Did I ever tell you the story about the boss mob that we were having trouble getting enough dps to kill? I asked the party to switch to two handed weapons. The level 12 paladin replies that he doesn't have one.

I am also detecting that you personally do not have a ranger. You say that you know good rangers-you don't say you have one. This makes it look a lot more like ranger hate to me than a general post about a problem player. I'll admit that a ranger is a tricky class to build esp since they don't get a toughness enhancement line they seriously need. But its no reason to flame on them. There are a ton of anti-ranger posts on these forums that scare people out of playing rangers. You don't need to add more.

[BRINKS]

Eriik, I think you were with Brinks and me (Talonkage) on one of those no tank Tor runs! And people thought we needed a tank....bah!
Rangers are awesome!

You didn't even give others a chance to get a word in edgewise ;) That has got to be the greatest number of consecutive posts by one user in a single thread!





Oh, ya, I agree with everything you said :)

(stay on target...Stay on Target....)

Brinks lvl 20 ranger, Thelanis <--------(ssooooon....) BwahahAHAhaha!!

[Frodo_Lives]

Like others, I have had some bad experiences in PuGs with characters and classes that were either a) not effective or b) sponging up mana like a dog in the desert or commonly c) both.

I ran Delera's on normal on my cleric a while back and there was a WF fighter 1/bard 4 who was wielding an acid greatsword with very little effect. He also was taking more damage than the rest of the group combined. The rest of the group ranged from ok to good, but this fighter/bard was horrible.

It got to the point where I as the cleric would always stand beside the bard to take all the aggro off of him cause he was getting damaged almost every time something took a swing at him. Like the ranger in the OP, this bard did not heal himself either.

The point is that there are classes that stand out when the player behind the keyboard is lacking, rangers is just one of them. The biggest problem with the ranger that the OP was playing with is that he refused to listen when getting advice on how to play better and be more effective.

If you can't consistantly stay on your feet for 10 consecutive seconds without a healer then you are doing something wrong.

[ArchStriker]

This happens...even today...-facepalm-

[Noctus]

It lives again!

http://images.epilogue.net/users/raist/necromancerM.jpg


Return of the Threadomancer 2 - Now it gets old!

[azrael4h]

Well the problem here is twofold. One you need to organize your groups better. A good group consists of:
1. cleric
2. Fighter or paladin
3. Barbarian or twf (ranger)
4. Rogue
5. Arcane caster
6. Anything you want (bard prefered, but may be a 7rogue/7wizard, for example, or a bow user)

Let the 6 man do what he wants. You do not have to heal him. If he asks why you are not healing him explain to him that he is using up too many resources and needs to see to his own healing just like a warforged needs heal himself/herself.

The best group I've ever ran in as a pug consisted of my on my old Monk, two Bards, a Rogue, and a Ranger. We only slowed down when one of the bards DC'ed. Amazingly enough, our elite run of Carnival went by with no issues, despite having no Cleric, no Arcane, no Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian, and even the Ranger was an AA.

And some people play Warforged who aren't arcanes (shocking I know) so self-healing isn't quite up to par, thus they need a Cleric or Favored Soul or Bard to heal them when things get tough. As a person who has one of each, I have no problems healing WF characters, and even have grown to enjoy having them in a group much more than Half-Orcs.

And if you're not healing your "sixth man" just because you decided he was useless before ever filling that spot, then you're the useless one, and a Cleric/FvS I'd blacklist very quickly. A good Cleric has no trouble healing a Warforged, if you can't, then reroll. A good Cleric has no troubles healing a full 6 man group that is competent, if you can't, then reroll.

A good group consists of

1: a good player
2: a good player
3: a good player
4: a good player
5: a good player
6: a good player

Nothing more, nothing less. Class is really irrelevant, as I've seen Barbarians with the UMD to scroll Heal scrolls, and Bards who could dps as well as your average Fighter.

I'll go farther, and give you the layout of an outstanding group:

1: an outstanding player
2: an outstanding player
3: an outstanding player
4: an outstanding player
5: an outstanding player
6: an outstanding player

Pretty simple formula for success.

*edit* didn't notice it was a necro. Doh!