Bucklers

[GuitarHero]

Hey, while you guys are fixing ranged combat, how about this. A buckler is designed to be used by archers. An archer can have a buckler equipped and suffer very little to hit ability to fire a bow. Could we get this applied to DDO? It just makes sense to me that this should be possible.

[Fennario]

Totally agree. Have always wondered why this wasn't the case. Not an unreasonable request at all, and doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement.

[Memnir]

Bucklers in DDO are an utter joke as they are now. Either fix them or remove them. Why have them if they are only a Light Shield in all but name only (and occasionally smaller graphics)?

But hey... this is just another item on the long, long list of things that have been asked for since beta. I'm sure we'll see a fix to them sometime around Mod 12 or so at this rate.

[Rouge]

Hey, while you guys are fixing ranged combat, how about this. A buckler is designed to be used by archers. An archer can have a buckler equipped and suffer very little to hit ability to fire a bow. Could we get this applied to DDO? It just makes sense to me that this should be possible.

hmmmm.....

Currently a Buckler takes up the same equip slot as a Bow does.......

Drag a Bow and a Buckler to a weapon quick slot (you must do this or it will not work) when you click it, both equip (the physical part would work for sure) and you do not take that penalty to your AC for things attacking you with a bow in hand, and you take a small penalty (say, -2) to hit with your ranged attacks.

[Invalid_86]

I brought this up to the reps at the DDO booth at Gen Con 2006. Still haven't seen any changes.

[Aesop]

They'd need to add a Buckler Slot. We argued for this in Beta and since launch but to no avail.

Aesop

[QuantumFX]

This isn't the first time nor the last time that this subject will come up. Honestly I don't think it will happen until Double weapons get implemented. (The developers have either been working on it since before mod 3 or they're just cruel sadistic bastards.)

The problem starts with the fact that we have an off hand weapon slot and no shield slot. AFAIK in the 3.5 ruleset you should be able to equip a buckler while TWF/THF/Ranged fighting but at a -1 to hit (on the off hand for twf). That may be problematic to code right there.

[llevenbaxx]

Agree, I went too equip one my second character(a 2-handed ftr) a couple days after launch and was like *** is this ****.:) One of those things you just want to say, figure this out already.

I remember some were saying they did it for balance reasons but with the limited usfulness of AC currently I think this line of thinking falls a little flat.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

should bucklers be more like bracers...then?
not function if you are wearing a shield but apply their defense in all other applications?

Huh...

And why the heck are they still giving arcane spell failures?
The things look like frisbies...and move (visually speaking) with the arm fluidly...leaving the fingers free.

I would think that greatsword wielding sorc would get more of an arcane spell failure than a buckler wearing one..


lol...

[QuantumFX]

remember some were saying they did it for balance reasons but with the limited usfulness of AC currently I think this line of thinking falls a little flat.

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

[ErgonomicCat]

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

All weapon specific feats now apply to a class of weapons, not a specific weapon.

That is a *huge* upgrade to TWF. No more dual wielding short swords, because they're the best you can get without double spending the feats....

Now you can go Khopesh and Kukri for huge crits, or rapier and short sword, or....

You can pick up enhancements to give you bonus to hit, negating the TWF penalty in ways you can't get in PnP.

Really, TWF has it so much better in DDO than it does in PnP. The loss of bucklers is a minimal impact - TWF is a damage dealing style, just like THF. It's not an AC style.

Now the loss of animated shield hurts....

[muffinlad]

Bucklers should become relevant, and be able to be used by TWF/THF/Archers.

The End.

muffinbucker

[Mad_Bombardier]

Bucklers should become relevant, and be able to be used by TWF/THF/Archers.

The End.Sort of. Archers can use a Buckler at all times without penalty. TWF who choose to attack with offhand lose the Buckler AC. There's no room for normal Buckler use in DDO as it's an either/or situation. Why take -1 to hit when you can always swap weapon sets to shield and weapon. THF always uses the offhand, so can never benefit from normal buckler use.

We'd also need to see the feat, Improved Buckler Use. With that feat, TWF and THF can maintain the Buckler AC while fighting (like in DDO, ImpShieldBash gets to maintain AC while bashing), but still get the -1 to-hit.


P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

[GuitarHero]

P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

well, this has to do with the fact that there's things you can do with a light shield, such as bash, or add spikes, that you can't do with a buckler. Not defending it, but they offer basically the same protection with a few modifications in the things you can do with them.

[Mad_Bombardier]

well, this has to do with the fact that there's things you can do with a light shield, such as bash, or add spikes, that you can't do with a buckler. Not defending it, but they offer basically the same protection with a few modifications in the things you can do with them.Yup, I understand those limitations. But, I always considered that the trade off for being able to wield while TWF or using bows. I suppose the creators wanted to give some value to non-magic/masterwork bucklers, as you use them considerably more than enchanted ones in non-Monty Haul campaigns. :)

[Aesop]

LIke I said a buckler slot would need to be added. Shields would take over both the off hand and buckler slots. Bucklers would only take the BUckler slot. There is a -1 to hit while using a buckler (but then again Tower Shield have a significant negative for being tower shields). I personally always thought Tower Shield should offer a +5 base shield bonus, Heavy +3, Light +2 and Buckler +1... but that's just me. Implement Improved Buckler Defense (because you don't technically get the bonus while attacking otherwise). Then again I always thought that the base Blocking DR for a Shield should be based off the shield bonus (including enhancement bonuses) and have Adamantine double this base (without enhancement bonuses). Making a +5 Adamantine Tower Shield have a base DR (before involving BAB, Feats or anything else) of 13... but really that's for a different topic I suppose.



Aesop

[Elthbert]

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

[GuitarHero]

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

BUT, TWF was so powerful because you had to sacrifice to get it. formerly 2 feats, now just 1. to get THF, you just had to drop your shield and put your other hand on the hilt, and bam, your THF'ing!!! in the land of min-max MMO, you STILL have a major sacrifice to TWF, and almost no sacrifice for THF, since this game is more based on dealing more damage to them than they deal to you and hope you win! Even though this is the case, i see this having very little to do with the fact that bucklers have no signifigant advantages, and don't even do the basic things they are INTENDED to be used for. Nobody picks up the dinner plate sized shield to go into battle because they thought it was "cute."

[QuantumFX]

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

Actually double weapons are the most powerful in P&P. (You can mix and match THF/TWF) Followed by THF (They get the most advantage out of Power attack and cleave/greater cleave)

Turbine added the whole passive cleave functionality (which I have no problem with.) to THF. Now TWF did get power attack applied to the off hand which is a plus but we lost defensive capablity. The argument made earlier that somehow the Improved Crit feat managed to magically equalize the styles is false. The change affects affects all fighting styles equally. So in comparison to P&P THF gained more and TWF lost out.

What people don't seem to understand about Sword n Board is that it's also a TWF style. Thanks to the messed up implementation of Improved Shield Bash we get a slow single attack and not Gladiator or 300.

[ErgonomicCat]

Actually double weapons are the most powerful in P&P. (You can mix and match THF/TWF) Followed by THF (They get the most advantage out of Power attack and cleave/greater cleave)


QFT.

If you haven't seen some of the ubercharger builds, which typically end up doing something like 2d6 (weapon) plus 22 (str) plus 300 (power attack), you should look at them. They're just disgusting. You can get something like a x8 return on your power attack, which is already 2:1 to start.



What people don't seem to understand about Sword n Board is that it's also a TWF style. Thanks to the messed up implementation of Improved Shield Bash we get a slow single attack and not Gladiator or 300.

It's a possibly TWF style. The majority of people that take it, though, don't use it that way really. It's an AC style primarily.

[GuitarHero]

Hehe, i remember my Pally in PnP built around shield bash. Had a lot of the Defenders of the Faith feats, as well as Shield Expertise. My pally said forget the sword, i'm using two shields!!! RYGAR FTW!!!!

[Hvymetal]

I know a few rogues that would love to see bucklers implemented properly, and (not sure about 3.5 ruleset and really too lazy to go check srd right now about to play) the improved buckler defense feat:)

[DSL]

I know a few rogues that would love to see bucklers implemented properly, and (not sure about 3.5 ruleset and really too lazy to go check srd right now about to play) the improved buckler defense feat:)

Here's the problem - nearly everyone that wants bucklers "implemented correctly" means they want to be able to use the Improved Buckler Defense feat. This feat is not a core rules feat, and Turbine has only rarely used non-core rules feats for DDO. Once you exclude this feat (which is unbalanced anyway), then what exactly do people expect in DDO from the "correct implementation of bucklers"? Given that you would have to have some method of swapping between using your off-hand between shield use and weapon use without switching weapons, isn't switching weapon sets more or less the same thing?

The advantage of a buckler in PnP is not having to spend a move-equivalent action to swap out your shield for a weapon, but to simply decide from round to round whether or not to use your off hand for AC or for attack. The buckler-using archer does not gain AC from it while shooting, but can quickly gain its AC benefit when an enemy closes (of course forfeiting any two-handed bow use while doing so). I suspect many people seem to think they should be getting the full AC benefits with only a -1 to hit as the trade-off.

Yes, it would be nice to see shield/off-hand weapon use mesh better, but long ago Turbine decided to implement their "blocking" mechanic, which fundamentally changes how this sort of thing works.

[Ithrani]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.

And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer. ;)


PS FIX BUCKLERS

[DSL]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.

And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer. ;)


PS FIX BUCKLERS

Try a well-equipped paladin with all the mounted combat feats, using a lance.:D




Two-weapon fighting in PnP, as in DDO, works best with sneak attacks, but it doesn't take much in the way of feats for 2-handed weapon damage to reach crazy levels (Power Attack is really all you need) compared to a similar feat expenditure for two-weapon fighting. I would hazard a rough guess that you need a 2 for 1 feat expenditure to keep up with 2-H users in damage, but 2-weapon style has other benefits as well, mostly in terms of versatility, and remains a good option for lower-strength characters.


As to your P.S., how exactly would "fixing" bucklers change things for you, given that you don't get the AC benefit while attacking with the off-hand?

[muffinlad]

P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

To steal from you...sort of.

It makes sense that Bucklers ad to your HtH AC at the same bonus as a light shield, and then offer no, or reduced (Magic +'s only) vs. missle weapons, and were more used for THF than TWF/Archery (but I am willing to bend).

This is something, btw, I could show you in real life. I can't show you how to run fast, or how to play basketball, or how to paint a picture, but I could show you how bucklers and two handed weapons work....and it would be a great skill if people didn't have handguns.

Now, off to learn more about Ascii art......

muffinlad

[ErgonomicCat]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.


The extra attacks are a mug's game. A single huge attack with a large to hit is where it's at. Yes, you get more attacks. All at -2. And you get a 1:1 return on your power attack, not a 2:1. And you can't use two attacks on a charge, which is where THF shines.

As an example, I'll point you to this thread:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5436939&postcount=104

I'll quote a couple salient point for you:



Basically, under normal conditions (Battle Jump + Leap Attack), this amounts to a 10:1 return on Power Attack, plus 3x normal weapon damage, every round. On foot.




This means that, for the big guns, he can end up with a 14:1 return, plus 5x normal damage




Finally, since he's moving a fair bit more than 10', he gets +3d6 on all damage and +3 AC. This isn't terribly critical but it's helpful considering your lighter armor and your need to make your one attack this round count.


For a half orc:



4x, 12:1 standard, 6x, 16:1 above build while mounted, 8x, 20:1 cavalier version, without a critical hit.


And



This version, using Unstoppable Charge on a Battle Jump, has a whopping 18:1 return on Power Attack, along with 7x the normal weapon damage, provided he uses the lance two-handed.


8x, 20:1 return. Using a large maul with greater mighty wallop (8d6 damage), that's 48d6 damage. Assuming a -10 power attack and 34 str, that's 48d6+18+3d6+200, or right about 400 damage. Casting Wraith Strike or True Strike, and PA'ing for 20, you're looking at +400.

TWF doesn't *typically* get that.



And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer. ;)


Oh, dear.

In 3.0, maybe. In 3.5, unless you're within a couple minutes of a marathon buff session, not so much.

Arcane Archers lose pretty much all their useful casting, and most of their combat. The AA is such a nice class, but so not useful in practice. It *should* be amazingly interesting, but it's just not.

IMHO, of course. ;)

Please see my other post in the "which race are you" and adjust my munchkin score up above 60%....

I may not know DDO, but I can beat PnP until it cries, mostly by stealing from the geniuses at the CharOp boards.

[QuantumFX]

to your P.S., how exactly would "fixing" bucklers change things for you, given that you don't get the AC benefit while attacking with the off-hand?

Lets see - Bucklers have a higher defensive DR than an off hand weapon. (It's called the shift key where the full AC bonus of the buckler could be applied to the characters AC.) Bucklers can also have some nifty attributes attached to them like elemental resistances, fortification. And this is before we start talking about Improved Buckler Defense.

[Vormaerin]

Even without all the whacked feat combos that the powergaming forum at Wizards' pulls out of where ever, THF is better than TWF if you possess a high strength (14+) because you get 1.5x Strength damage and superior base weapon damage. 1d12+6 at full to hit is just better than 1d6+4/1d6+2 (for rapier/shortsword or twin shortswords) at -2 to hit. Further, most folks who argue the TWF cause are spending a ton of feats on TWF without giving the THF guy credit for the feats he'd have instead. Almost as importantly, TWF only gets all its attacks if you can take a full action (ie your opponent is standing there toe to toe with you). If you have to move around a lot, you are only making a single one handed attack.

TWF has its place, but it is for finesse types with relatively low strength who wish to make up for it by taking additional attacks. Or who have some other damage output to apply (sneak attacks, principally).

As for bucklers, their only core functionality is to always give you a -1 to hit but let you choose each round whether to use your off hand to attack or shield. Essentially irrelevant in DDO with weapon switching hotkeys, as already mentioned. So in a way they are implemented properly.

[DSL]

Lets see - Bucklers have a higher defensive DR than an off hand weapon. (It's called the shift key where the full AC bonus of the buckler could be applied to the characters AC.) Bucklers can also have some nifty attributes attached to them like elemental resistances, fortification. And this is before we start talking about Improved Buckler Defense.


Ahh, now these are valid arguments in favor of them, rather than the tired old "I want the AC benefit I'd get with the Improved Buckler Defense feat". Of course, this brings up the question as to whether a -1 to hit is too small a trade-off for what is almost a free ring slot, considering how many melee'ers go THF instead of "Sword and Board" these days. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that we are extremely unlikely to see this, as it involves an overhaul of the item-slot/weapon-set system. Incidentally, I am certainly not opposed to bucklers being "fixed", but it does bother me to see how many people asking for this seem to expect that it would come with a broken feat from an optional supplement.

[SteeleTrueheart]

IIRC a mithral buckler would remove all ASF and attack penalties.
I believe you suffer the skill penalty to all attacks when using a buckler. (The -1 in the description) This was mentioned in a Sage article I think (?? cant recall) Mithral reduces this skill penalty to 0.

I remember this because the Sage said that all arcane casters should be carrying a mithral buckler.

Also bucklers can be used by archers without penalty.


Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

[QuantumFX]

Ahh, now these are valid arguments in favor of them, rather than the tired old "I want the AC benefit I'd get with the Improved Buckler Defense feat". Of course, this brings up the question as to whether a -1 to hit is too small a trade-off for what is almost a free ring slot, considering how many melee'ers go THF instead of "Sword and Board" these days. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that we are extremely unlikely to see this, as it involves an overhaul of the item-slot/weapon-set system. Incidentally, I am certainly not opposed to bucklers being "fixed", but it does bother me to see how many people asking for this seem to expect that it would come with a broken feat from an optional supplement.

There's also the possibility, with a combat system overhaul, to give a weapon an alternate stance. Things like switching from weapon/buckler straight to TWF without Turbines signature weapon switch lag, throwing weapons and using a normal weapon with both hands come to mind in these cases.

[GuitarHero]

Ok, honestly, i just want to be able to equip my +2 Ghost Touch Longbow of Greater Undead Bane and my +1 Deathblock Buckler. Yeah, selfish of me, but thats why i started the thread!!! I don't care which martial style beats which one, because its all personal opinion! I don't even care about some feat that lets me throw my shield like Rygar from the old video game!!! I just want to take on the beholder in GoP with my bow and buckler equipped.

[DSL]

IIRC a mithral buckler would remove all ASF and attack penalties.
I believe you suffer the skill penalty to all attacks when using a buckler. (The -1 in the description) This was mentioned in a Sage article I think (?? cant recall) Mithral reduces this skill penalty to 0.

I remember this because the Sage said that all arcane casters should be carrying a mithral buckler.

Also bucklers can be used by archers without penalty.


The Armor check penalty of any shield applies to skills and attacks when you're not proficient with it, which is applied to all attacks regardless of which hand you're attacking with. In the case of a masterwork buckler, the ACP is zero, thus eliminating this penalty (this is why MW/magical bucklers are often used by rogues or other non-shield proficient classes). However, the -1 referred to above is not the same as the ACP, and applies to anyone (proficient or not) who uses a buckler and attacks with their shield arm at the same time. This is to reflect the awkwardness of attacking with a 5-pound weight strapped to your forearm (and is very much akin to the -2 penalty to all attacks while using a tower shield).

Technically, if you were not proficient with shields and you were using a normal (non-MW) buckler while using a 2-handed weapon or an off-hand weapon, you would do so at -2 (-1 for off-handed buckler use, -1 for ACP nonproficiency). The benefit of a mithril buckler over a non-mithril MW buckler for spellcasters is that there is no arcane spell failure chance with mithril, thus eliminating all penalties for using one (a mithril light shield also has an ASF of zero, but somewhat limits what you can do with that hand).

[QuantumFX]

Ok, honestly, i just want to be able to equip my +2 Ghost Touch Longbow of Greater Undead Bane and my +1 Deathblock Buckler. Yeah, selfish of me, but thats why i started the thread!!! I don't care which martial style beats which one, because its all personal opinion! I don't even care about some feat that lets me throw my shield like Rygar from the old video game!!! I just want to take on the beholder in GoP with my bow and buckler equipped.

Silver Flame Trinket rank 3 is way more handy when dealing with enervation spambots... err... beholders and doomspheres...

[GuitarHero]

Silver Flame Trinket rank 3 is way more handy when dealing with enervation spambots... err... beholders and doomspheres...

yup, i know, but say i haven't gotten that yet, or that slot is preoccupied... Not saying it can't be worked around, but just throwin' the possibility out there. i mean, i can swap gear around and work around it, (which is what i do now) or i could get something i should technically be allowed to do in the first place.

[QuantumFX]

yup, i know, but say i haven't gotten that yet, or that slot is preoccupied... Not saying it can't be worked around, but just throwin' the possibility out there. i mean, i can swap gear around and work around it, (which is what i do now) or i could get something i should technically be allowed to do in the first place.

I'm not saying give up on the bucklers I'm just saying there's something more efficent. :) And with that configuration you could use a buckler of greater elemental resists for the living and undead versions of enervation spambots... err beholders and doomspheres...

[GuitarHero]

I'm not saying give up on the bucklers I'm just saying there's something more efficent. :) And with that configuration you could use a buckler of greater elemental resists for the living and undead versions of enervation spambots... err beholders and doomspheres...

aye, either way requires the proper use of a buckler. and besides, my cloak is my Greater elemental resist items. :)