Do Chattering Rings' Dodge Bonuses stack?

[Gror_Stoneshard]

I just want confirmation from someone that has two Chattering Rings if you can wear both and that the dodge bonuses stack for +6? Per PnP rules, dodge bonuses stack. Not sure if this would be the case in DDO for two of the same named items (dodge bonuses do stack as Chaosgarde and Chattering Ring do stack right now). Thanks.

[Shyver]

Last I checked two chattering rings do not stack since the bonus is considered to be coming from the same source even though it's 2 rings.

[Arkat]

Last I checked two chattering rings do not stack since the bonus is considered to be coming from the same source even though it's 2 rings.

Hmm...I thought that rule applied to "un-named bonuses."

[Tanka]

Hmm...I thought that rule applied to "un-named bonuses."
It was confirmed by Eladrin that Chattering Rings don't stack, since they're technically the same item.

[Lifespawn]

guildy has 2 from pre stacking days he's still ****ed they were changed so no they donot stack

[Aspenor]

guildy has 2 from pre stacking days he's still ****ed they were changed so no they donot stack

THey never stacked.

[Lifespawn]

they sure did

[Aspenor]

they sure did

I'm not even going to bother discussing this further, after this.

No, they didn't.

[Grimdiegn]

I'm not even going to bother discussing this further, after this.

No, they didn't.


lol I'm not sure one person saying "yes, they did". and another saying "no, they didn't" is a discussion. :D

[Aspenor]

lol I'm not sure one person saying "yes, they do". and another saying "no, they don't" is a discussion. :D

Heh, true. Well there's not much more to it, other than they did not and never have stacked. It was not nerfed, or changed, chattering rings just have never stacked.

There's ALWAYS somebody that has to insist otherwise, i.e. banishing slashing weapons, random +5 resistance items, etc. :cool:

[Tanka]

lol I'm not sure one person saying "yes, they did". and another saying "no, they didn't" is a discussion. :D
You haven't been paying much attention to the forums, have you? :p

[Ekental]

Eladrin has certainly posted that they have never stacked, I'm sure someone more anal-retentive and more frequent on these boards will soon dig up that post for you to clear it up.

[Mhykke]

Heh, true. Well there's not much more to it, other than they did not and never have stacked. It was not nerfed, or changed, chattering rings just have never stacked.

There's ALWAYS somebody that has to insist otherwise, i.e. banishing slashing weapons, random +5 resistance items, etc. :cool:

What do you want for that slashing banisher!?!?!? I have to have it! :D

[Tanka]

Eladrin has certainly posted that they have never stacked, I'm sure someone more anal-retentive and more frequent on these boards will soon dig up that post for you to clear it up.
I just tried searching about an hour ago. I think the post was in the wipe that came by a few months ago. :(

[Ziggy]

they sure did
No they didnt.


Eladrin has certainly posted that they have never stacked, I'm sure someone more anal-retentive and more frequent on these boards will soon dig up that post for you to clear it up.
It was graal.

I just tried searching about an hour ago. I think the post was in the wipe that came by a few months ago. :(
Tis why i keep a record of the interesting info in the link in my sig.:D
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1019436#post1019436


The dodge bonuses for multiple chattering rings are being treated as coming from the same source so they do not stack.

[Yaga_Nub]

Heh, true. Well there's not much more to it, other than they did not and never have stacked. It was not nerfed, or changed, chattering rings just have never stacked.

There's ALWAYS somebody that has to insist otherwise, i.e. banishing slashing weapons, random +5 resistance items, etc. :cool:

You gotta remove that one now or clarify it with RANDOM banishing slashing weapons. That new sword from the Abbot raid..... yummy.

[Aspenor]

You gotta remove that one now or clarify it with RANDOM banishing slashing weapons. That new sword from the Abbot raid..... yummy.

;) I don't feel like clarifying, everybody knows that I meant random.

Although it is a pretty neat sword. Too bad it's not cold iron.

[stockwizard5]

Two chattering rings did in fact stack - there was a dev post (somewhere eaten no doubt) that said they did not - I posted screenies that they did - they posted later that this was unintended - and it was changed shortly thereafter :( I am still unsure why :(

Never comfortable disagreeing with asp on anything factual - but this I know for sure - first hand - no doubt.

[Ekental]

Ah... Ziggy, that was the name I was looking for.

Could you perhaps repost those screenies stock?

[Dane_McArdy]

No they didnt.


It was graal.

Tis why i keep a record of the interesting info in the link in my sig.:D
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1019436#post1019436

When I read, someone more anal attentive could find the link, I thought of you dear Ziggy, but in a good way. Then laughed when I scrolled down and saw you had already replied.

Thanks for the smile on a moody day.

[Aspenor]

Two chattering rings did in fact stack - there was a dev post (somewhere eaten no doubt) that said they did not - I posted screenies that they did - they posted later that this was unintended - and it was changed shortly thereafter :( I am still unsure why :(

Never comfortable disagreeing with asp on anything factual - but this I know for sure - first hand - no doubt.

Well, here's my issue with this assertion....

The topic came up originally on these forums when there was a post by an individual complaining that the rings did not stack. There was never any mention of the rings stacking before that, in any forums literature or otherwise. The very first post ever posted on this topic was a complaint about the "non-stacking" of chattering rings, whereupon Graal came with his clarification post about why.

Now, I've been a forums geek for a long time now, and there's been pretty much zero posts about these topics that I have missed since I logged in to the forums and started my forums account.

While, it's tough to argue with a person about their personal experience, I still have doubts about the rings ever stacking.

I do remember a post previous to the original complaint post about the rings not stacking, where the question was asked whether the WOULD stack. I remember very well that it was myself that asserted that the rings would stack, since dodge bonuses stack. However, I remember no posts confirming this, I only remember the post that followed approximately a month later complaining about their non-stacking nature.

[Furgulder]

I have a slashing banisher. I diplo'd a chest to get it though.

Screenshot? My screenshot key is um...broken.

[stockwizard5]

I will see if I have them - I have wiped/replaced my playing machine multiple times but usually keep stuff like this somewhere.

Refresh my memory: Titan was live server only?

PS: Actually I thought about trying to dig them up to "discuss" a recently refreshed "urban legend" :)

[Aspenor]

I will see if I have them - I have wiped/replaced my playing machine multiple times but usually keep stuff like this somewhere.

Refresh my memory: Titan was live server only?

PS: Actually I thought about trying to dig them up to "discuss" a recently refreshed "urban legend" :)

I don't recall if Risia was around when the Titan was released. I believe it was around that time that they did Risia.

What urban legend?!?! OOOO!! I love those!! If you can't tell ;)

[Riot]

I gotta agree with Aspenor. They never stacked, and first post was a complaint about them "not stacking".

Now I do remember posts stating how they "should stack" due to Dodge Bonuses stacking...

And Believe me.... I was paying very close attention to anything that could boost AC. =)

[Aspenor]

Now I do remember posts stating how they "should stack" due to Dodge Bonuses stacking...

I'll take the blame for that one.....:cool:

[MysticTheurge]

I'll take the blame for that one.....:cool:

Same source:


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source

Moreover, while we're at it:


A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.

[Lifespawn]

sry asp i know they did stack as a guildy of mine had 2 like i said it's a rl friend and i saw them stack a patch was put in and he freaked out because his ac was lower we searched the release notes and it was in there that they wouldn't stack anymore.I will search tho i'm sure it's disappeared by now but i know 100% that they used to stack.

[Tanka]

Moreover, while we're at it:
I had to keep quoting this against Gimpster, MT.


Dodge: A dodge bonus enhances a character's ability to get out of the way quickly. Dodge bonuses do stack with other dodge bonuses. Spells and magic items occasionally grant dodge bonuses.
Double checked the eratta, no changes on that statement. Unless there's a FAQ somewhere the doubles back on the ruling...

[Aspenor]

Same source:


Thanks, mom. :p

[Ekental]

sry asp i know they did stack as a guildy of mine had 2 like i said it's a rl friend and i saw them stack a patch was put in and he freaked out because his ac was lower we searched the release notes and it was in there that they wouldn't stack anymore.I will search tho i'm sure it's disappeared by now but i know 100% that they used to stack.

Yeah, we're going nowhere.

"They stacked, but.. we don't have a screenshot/my computer was wiped, we'll try hard to find it but no guarantees".
It's not that we think you're flat out lying, but no one's going to believe this without the relevant screenies.

[MysticTheurge]

Double checked the eratta, no changes on that statement. Unless there's a FAQ somewhere the doubles back on the ruling...

The reference for that quote is the D&D Glossary on the Wizards site. Which claims to use the PHB as it's source. But I can't find a reference there either.

Moreover, Haste definitely gives a +1 dodge bonus to AC, so the spells part is proved wrong by the D&D Core materials.

That said, I think putting Dodge bonuses on magic items was a huge mistake and should never have been done. Nearly the entirety of the D&D game balance is built on things not stacking to outrageous extremes. Obviously, you still need something that stacks to allow special add-on effects that everyone benefits from (i.e. Fighting Defensively), but allowing +5 (for now) to AC that stacks with everything else is just asking for trouble. And it's only going to get worse from here on out as people go "Gah, why is Chattering Ring/Chaosguardes still the best dodge bonus at 18th level?!?!?"

[Lifespawn]

never thought at the time i would need to ss something to prove 8 months later my bad dropped the ball on that 1.

They stacked ask Guru or Cashiry they both had 2 rings and loved the armor bonuses.

[Ziggy]

Ah... Ziggy, that was the name I was looking for.

My pleasure.

When I read, someone more anal attentive could find the link, I thought of you dear Ziggy, but in a good way. Then laughed when I scrolled down and saw you had already replied.

Thanks for the smile on a moody day.

Glad to be of service.:D

[Borror0]

And it's only going to get worse from here on out as people go "Gah, why is Chattering Ring/Chaosguardes still the best dodge bonus at 18th level?!?!?"

Honestly, they'll probably need to change it soon, with the way mobs' to-hit is going UP...

[Tanka]

Honestly, they'll probably need to change it soon, with the way mobs' to-hit is going UP...
AC, IMO, was never meant to scale along with mob to-hit. Eventually it comes down to killing them faster than they can kill you, which is why the high-level Fighter in PnP was usually a poor choice for all-out damage output.

Six of one, half dozen of another.

[stockwizard5]

Yeah, we're going nowhere.

"They stacked, but.. we don't have a screenshot/my computer was wiped, we'll try hard to find it but no guarantees".
It's not that we think you're flat out lying, but no one's going to believe this without the relevant screenies.

Dude - Relax - I said I would look.

I am on the road - I will check when I get home. ****.

[smithers]

I am one of the people who acquired 2 only to learn that they don't stack.

That fact, together with any future plans to maybe change this for the people like me who feel robbed are all that matters.

Whether the rings stacked a year ago, who freaking cares?
If you are really so convinced that you are right about this point then let it go. I don't see the motive for trying to convince someone else they are wrong about a point that today means absolutely nothing.

Glad I was able to make my point without using that stupid word e-peen. Doh!

[Harncw]

5 months later and **** now I gotta read this...

yeah they dont stack...

[Riorik]

I just tried searching about an hour ago. I think the post was in the wipe that came by a few months ago. :(

I would agree with Aspenor (& others) - the ring has never stacked with itself and I remember the post stating the same.

[Lifespawn]

5 months later and **** now I gotta read this...

yeah they dont stack...

anymore

[jjflanigan]

anymore

And by "anymore" he means "never"

[DaveyCrockett]

sry asp i know they did stack as a guildy of mine had 2 like i said it's a rl friend and i saw them stack a patch was put in and he freaked out because his ac was lower we searched the release notes and it was in there that they wouldn't stack anymore.I will search tho i'm sure it's disappeared by now but i know 100% that they used to stack.


All the release notes are on the internet. Please show me the ones that mention the chattering rings no longer stacking. I had 2 within 2 months of the Titan being beat regularly, and they didn't stack (that was well before the issue arised on the forums).

[Snoggy]

What do you want for that slashing banisher!?!?!? I have to have it! :D

I'll trade mine for a Maladroit Light Pick of Bone Breaking.

[Borror0]

All the release notes are on the internet. Please show me the ones that mention the chattering rings no longer stacking. I had 2 within 2 months of the Titan being beat regularly, and they didn't stack (that was well before the issue arised on the forums).

I know someone that had a screenshot of two chattering not stacking, I'll try to get him to post it.

However, no matter if it stacked or not, it was a bug. Wearing the same kind of item, even though the bonus would stack, does not grant twice the bonus. I know it's in the PHB and on the SRD, but I'm too lazy to find it. So, whether they fixed it or not, it's working properly.

[query]

Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!


Sorry, I wanted to "contribute" as well.

[Glenalth]

Heh, true. Well there's not much more to it, other than they did not and never have stacked. It was not nerfed, or changed, chattering rings just have never stacked.

There's ALWAYS somebody that has to insist otherwise, i.e. banishing slashing weapons, random +5 resistance items, etc. :cool:

You're going to hate this then. +5 Resistance Cloak RR lvl 15 in Argonessen auction house 2-3 days ago.

[croger1520033]

I didn't bother reading the entire thread so I am just answering the OP question. Read the ring, it actually says on the ring that it will not stack with another in the description.

[Borror0]

You're going to hate this then. +5 Resistance Cloak RR lvl 15 in Argonessen auction house 2-3 days ago.

Yeah, but they didn't drop prior to module 6, which is when he wrote that.

[Jondallar]

I will trade all of my slashing banishers for 2 stackable chattering rings... and maybe throw in Yaga deleting all his gimp toons and rerolling as a sweetener... ok the rings and just his ranger....thats my final offer;)

[Cashiry]

I wish I had a screenshot for you guys.. but they did stack at one time.. I enjoyed the higher AC while it wasa there, however, It didnt last more than a month before the change was put in... I remember seeing the post about 2 chattering rings not stacking and a screenshot showing it but that pic was posted after the fix was implemented...I am very big on AC...Those that know me, know it...Take it as its worth... since I dont have a screen shot... Believe what you will... But, I do know they stacked at one time...

[Lifespawn]

All the release notes are on the internet. Please show me the ones that mention the chattering rings no longer stacking. I had 2 within 2 months of the Titan being beat regularly, and they didn't stack (that was well before the issue arised on the forums).

as i stated before the great forum wipe took those notes out and just above this post 1 of the people i knew had 2 just posted that he had them and they stacked not i knew a guy like i said he actually Had 2 and my Guildy who like i said is my rl friend had 2 aswell i Know they worked because i lost the roll on the second 1 h had and went to his house to see them stacking because i was gonna beat his A@#$ if they didn't for taking 2 :)

I am going to pm a dev to post on this i am not saying they work now i know they don't they were changed but when a dev confirms that at 1 point they did stack all your snarky remarks will just make you look stupid.

[Jarlaxel]

Well, here's my issue with this assertion....

The topic came up originally on these forums when there was a post by an individual complaining that the rings did not stack. There was never any mention of the rings stacking before that, in any forums literature or otherwise. The very first post ever posted on this topic was a complaint about the "non-stacking" of chattering rings, whereupon Graal came with his clarification post about why.

Now, I've been a forums geek for a long time now, and there's been pretty much zero posts about these topics that I have missed since I logged in to the forums and started my forums account.

While, it's tough to argue with a person about their personal experience, I still have doubts about the rings ever stacking.

I do remember a post previous to the original complaint post about the rings not stacking, where the question was asked whether the WOULD stack. I remember very well that it was myself that asserted that the rings would stack, since dodge bonuses stack. However, I remember no posts confirming this, I only remember the post that followed approximately a month later complaining about their non-stacking nature.

I do remember this post since I was the one who had asked if the rings stack. I believe it was sometime in Novemeber 2006 I was sitting in my ships office on duty browsing the forums wondering if it would behoov me to obtain 2 of them and so I asked... I remember being annoyed when someone corrected you and stated they did not stack. I so wanted them to stack! lol. Since the titan was first beaten 27-Oct-2006 it would have been a really really small window prior to a demon sands hotfix IF the rings stacked. Or a bug unique to a particular situation that caused the rings to stack.

[Riggs]

I am sure they never stacked...unless some got bugged....

But bugs never happen now do they?

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!


And where is your evidence for this argument? Huh?!? No fool is going to believe such baseless claims. :eek::D;)

Master Kadish
P.S. Lifespawn -- I can't speak for the personal experiences of you or your friends, but I've read the every release notes Turbine has posted (for DDO at least) and I have to say I do not recall ever seeing anything about Chattering Rings being changed. So I'm going to have to disagree with you until further evidence can be turned up.

[Emili]

AC, IMO, was never meant to scale along with mob to-hit. Eventually it comes down to killing them faster than they can kill you, which is why the high-level Fighter in PnP was usually a poor choice for all-out damage output.

Six of one, half dozen of another.


Nomore so then the Barb or pally really when you considered the PnP fighter had GWS + SA chains + PA + Cleaves + whirlwind typically the light and medium armoured fighter pulled off as many attacks as the TWF spec'd ranger out of that... plus they most often pulled off damage output of all but the most extremely strong barbarian under rage under the barb's best conditions... because they would move from mob to mob within a round or so. Thier combat prowess is what bought the time for a caster to actually cast a spell rather then be swamped. While a caster could do 10d6 damahes with a spell it was the time afforded them to cast it which let it come to fruition. SR and touch AC among other things limited the caster class to being more stealthy in how to deliver thier real powers ... to sneak into a lair and get off a spell and land them to great effect took more then just hopping around twirling a finger. Figure it out... limited spells per day - at lvl 20 4x9, not knowing what lay ahead, possible random encounters, healing took place mainly at resting, Monster SR, you're not sure what the monster is as is painted by the DM, You're not sure what the CR of it is... nor it's resistances, class (if any), a game where surprise, initiative rolls and so many other factors come to matter, etc...

[JFeenstra]

What do you want for that slashing banisher!?!?!? I have to have it! :D

beat the abbot...

a few times

its one of the raid items

[DaveyCrockett]

I am going to pm a dev to post on this i am not saying they work now i know they don't they were changed but when a dev confirms that at 1 point they did stack all your snarky remarks will just make you look stupid.

I left snarky remarks? I just asked you to use some resources (the release notes are in way more places than just the DDO forums) to back-up your claims. Doesn't seem too snarky to me.

[Lifespawn]

i have been searching and everything is wiped all the links on ten ton hammer are linked back to here and so come up blank

[brshelton]

why was this necroed?

[GeneralDiomedes]

FYI "random +5 resists" are dropping now

What is the level progression with that anyhow? Is it 4 levels per +1?

So that would make +5 resist items min lvl 17, i.e. RR lvl 15?

[Wu_Jen]

What is the level progression with that anyhow? Is it 4 levels per +1?

So that would make +5 resist items min lvl 17, i.e. RR lvl 15?

+1 Resist No RR is lvl 1 - 5
+2 Resist No RR is lvl 7
+3 Resist No RR is lvl 9
+4 Resist No RR is lvl 11
+5 Resist No RR is lvl 13

So lowest +5 Resist item you can get is Bound RR for lvl 9.

[Mad_Bombardier]

What is the level progression with that anyhow? Is it 4 levels per +1?

So that would make +5 resist items min lvl 17, i.e. RR lvl 15?That is correct.

+1 = ml:1
+2 = ml:5-7 (rr:, ml:3-5)
+3 = ml:9-11 (rr:, ml:7-9)
+4 = ml:11-15* (rr:, ml:9-13) *should be 13-15, but was included in ml:11 loot as far back as Mod3.
+5 = ml:17-19 (rr:, ml:15-17)

[Borror0]

That is correct.

+1 = ml:1
+2 = ml:5-7 (rr:, ml:3-5)
+3 = ml:9-11 (rr:, ml:7-9)
+4 = ml:11-15* (rr:, ml:9-13) *should be 13-15, but was included in ml:11 loot as far back as Mod3.
+5 = ml:17-19 (rr:, ml:15-17)

But that's a bug, just look at the bpm on these and you'll see that's not the right level.:D

[Zuldar]

Technically if you had two they should stack since dodge bonuses of all types stack, but seeing as they don't want them to stack it would have made more sense to make it an exclusive item so you can only have one. That would have been the best way to "answer" the question about stacking.

At least in my opinion anyway.

[MysticTheurge]

Technically if you had two they should stack since dodge bonuses of all types stack...

This is not true. All dodge bonuses stack unless they come from the same source.

They've chosen to interpret two chattering rings as being two versions of a dodge bonus from the same source.

[Zuldar]

This is not true. All dodge bonuses stack unless they come from the same source.

They've chosen to interpret two chattering rings as being two versions of a dodge bonus from the same source.

That's where the technicality comes from. Even though they have the same name, you could interpret them as being different items. In addition, the description for dodge bonuses states that they stack with all other bonuses to ac even other dodge bonuses. So as long as you we're following the proper item placement restrictions they should technically stack.

That's why the far simplest, and easiest solution would be to make it exclusive. No fuss, no mess.

[MysticTheurge]

That's why the far simplest, and easiest solution would be to make it exclusive. No fuss, no mess.

That would work.

Of course, it wasn't an option at the time the item was created.

[sir_midus]

If you look at what the ring says, you will see that they do not stack. they chatter over each othe canciling each other out. so not only do they not stack the become moot and don't work at all.

[Zuldar]

That would work.

Of course, it wasn't an option at the time the item was created.

So they could implement it now, anyone that has more then one can be compensated with the gold piece value of the extra rings. Since they don't stack anyway and can't take permanent damage nobody should care.

[EspyLacopa]

Moreover, while we're at it:
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
I just feel like poking at this:


Haste The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and a +1 dodge bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) to AC and Reflex saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex). Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus), and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Note the red part of this spell effect ^_^

[MysticTheurge]

I just feel like poking at this:

Note the red part of this spell effect ^_^

Uh, yeah. We covered all of that way back before the thread was Necro'd.

[Wu_Jen]

That is correct.

+1 = ml:1
+2 = ml:5-7 (rr:, ml:3-5)
+3 = ml:9-11 (rr:, ml:7-9)
+4 = ml:11-15* (rr:, ml:9-13) *should be 13-15, but was included in ml:11 loot as far back as Mod3.
+5 = ml:17-19 (rr:, ml:15-17)

Isn't bound the same as being RR? I.e. lowers it one group? I have a +2 Resistance Cloak (from WW or STK, can't remember) that is bound and has no lvl req on it, i.e. ml:1. I also pulled a +1 Light Shield, bound, RR: WF from Tembler also, which would make it ml:-2 :p

Deflection is one level higher right? I.e. (Ioun Stone is only item I can think of that gives it at lvl 1, maybe its unique.)
+1 = ml:1
+2 = ml:7
+3 = ml:9
+4 = ml:11
+5 = ml:13

I wonder why they all have that gap from lvl 1 to 5 or 7?