4 Months later, I still like Pure Paladins.

[Gangwulfe]

So, I payed 15 dollars to turn my account on so I could check out mod 5, and what I have missed for 4 months. I noticed a lot of people are still hateing on Paladins staying pure, so here is my reasons for thinking they are still quite good.

Mana bar -- My Paladin has 626ish mana. I use this mana bar to Cast 70 point heals, buff for every possibly occasion, and still have enough to cast virtue and divine favor constantly. If you think wand healing is as "clutch" as dropping a 70 point heal on someone in the middle of a heated fight, you are only kidding yourself.

Buffs -- Getting higher levels, means your buffs last longer. This is a good thing. It also means you get more powerful buffs, like say 30 point resists instead of 20 point resists. This is a good thing.

Better Spells -- I do not know what spell list you guys are looking at to say that the lv 4 paladin spells are bad, but to me EVERY lv 4 spell is good.

-- Break Enchantment -- Nice for dispelling, and need the highest pally level possible to make it work.

-- Netural Poison -- No cloudkill, or Poison.

-- Holy Sword -- I can not believe how good this is. Lets see, I not only get to chose what kind of weapon I want to fit what my specialty is, I also get to have a + 5 Holy / Cold Iron weapon that busts through damage reductions, (notice all the undeads in the new areas?) AND it gives me the constant benefit of protection from evil (yes, I will take a + 2 to my AC and saves that stack with everything that can not be dispelled) wich allows me to remove the amulet of the silver flame trinket, and equip my PoP 10. MMM. I like mana.

-- Cure Serious -- See above comments about laying down 70 point heals. Thats with NO empower healing feat.

-- Death Ward -- Think this is bad? Go run an undead mission, and take notice how often that little black circle appears over your head, and realizie that you could be loseing 1 point of stats every time that happens.

-- Restoration -- How can it be bad to be able to cast this?

-- Lv 2 / 3 spells that are not too shabby also.

-- Circle of Prot Evil -- Worth casting, massive stackable effects for a tiny mana cost.

-- Cure Blindness / Remove Curse -- Can it really hurt to be able to cast theese?

-- Angelskin -- Big fight Inc? Sure I will take 5 points of damage reduction. If I was a barbarian, I would be mad.

-- 30 Point Resistances -- Need I say more?

Getting your paladin level maxed means you get to have more spell slots, to fill up with all of theese utility spells. At best, you will be able to have 4 or 5 of all your spell levels. You basically become a walking buff station, and become immune to everything. You can cast any type of resist you will ever need, be a nice back up healer, and still have the mana for divine favor. If you stop at lv 11, you basically have a garbage mana bar, and have just enough mana for divine favor and a few weak resists here and there. Personally, I will take the mana.

Now, I know someone is going to say use scrolls or potions or wands, but they are nowhere near as good as actual casting. Sure, you can make up for quality with quanity, but for me, I will always take quality.

More things that make pure Paladins good.

Higher level means more smites that are more powerful. This saves you enhancement points.

Higher Pally level means better Turn undead. I was able to turn the cr 13 undeads in the new zone tonight, so I still think it is worthwhile if you know how it works.

All Paladin levels means a better BaB. Takeing non melee levels loses you Bab.

Higher Paladin level makes better Lay on Hands.

Higher Paladin level make more cure diseases.

Faith Tennants -- I do not know what the new ones will be, BUT the one I got now is crazy... Sovern Host. It not allows me a free feat (wepon focus longsword) it also allows me to make anyone proficient in longswords (cause you know mages and clerics love that sort of thing) AND it grants me a "cure all / heal type spell" once every 10 mins... it is actually BETTER than the heal spell, cause it heals a person to full HP where as a Heal can be capped. If the new ranks of the tenants are nearly as good as this and / or better than this, and are like lv 15+.. I think you would be crazy to not want theese.

Last but not least, you have the comfort knowing you are a Pure class, and you can roleplay acordingly. This is something I enjoy.

Anyways, I will be back untill Nov 25th then My account will run out again. If anyone wants help with a build, that is not your steriotypical cookie cutter rogue / Pally evasion build, or any other build such as my Elven Bladesinger or Battle Cleric build, send me some mail. I will be happy to get ya some great build advice, that is unlike all the other stuff you read around here.

I hate drow and dwarves, and will not build one. Elves, Humans, and Kender only. :)

Gang

[Borror0]

Good reasons, but not enough.

C'mon, join my cause and say they aren't worth it, we'll gte them even bettter ;)

[wiglin]

All good points, but ddo is a hack n slash. The way this game is currently we do not need a primary buffer class. Even Bards should be dps or cc first then buff second. Now this is my opinion, but if I invited someone to my party and all they did was buff and back heal I would tell them to reroll...lol

I like your build Gangwulfe, always have. I followed your old post when you where defending it. From a roleplay perspective I think it is one of the best paladin builds. It has its uses, but how much do we need. I guess I look at it in the sense if I can farm and item, then I am not to worried about the spell. (Deathward) The paladin's spell list is pretty weak. Are the spells useful...sure, but not so much that I miss them. If someone in the party needs that much backup healing then tell the cleric to reroll.

DPS
Tank
Healer

From a pure powergamer perpspective, your primary role needs to fit in one of those categories.

In fact I am rolling a more traditional paladin much likes your in NWN2. I was banned for a couple of days, so I enjoyed playing NWN2 again.

It was nice having all the races, classes, and rules that I enjoyed about 3.5. Now if only they would add a jump button to NWN2 I would be set.

[Zenako]

Welcome back from the outlands Gang. Hope you enjoyed your walkabout.

I also like pure for many of the reasons you name. I think you will find that the main difference between points of view will stem from a fundamental choice of how players percieve the game. Those who come from an MMO background will tend to look at the characters as Toons, whose objective is to achieve maximum DPS or boons/second in an optimized questing party. Those who come to DDO from an RPG perspective will place a greater value on some of the intangible aspects of the game, like purity of class.

The second difference I expect lies mainly in how often those players run those toons in small parties or solo. The survivability of a pure paladin is better in small/solo runs.

[Pfamily]

Gotta agree with the Gangwulfe and the rest of the Pally fans, pure pally offers a lot of benefits. My Barb regularly teams with a Paladin for short-man runs, and the characters compliment each other quite nicely...esp. the touches and that 1000+ point heal from the enhancement line when yours truly charges headfirst into a group of baddies! (I'm kinda a mana sponge at those times, but heck my Int is 8 and I play it to the hilt...heh)

I've no doubt that the class could be made better by Turbine...but. A good blade, sick saves, nice buffs, and powerful inherent abilities makes the Pally a welcome addition in my book.

[wiglin]

Welcome back from the outlands Gang. Hope you enjoyed your walkabout.

I also like pure for many of the reasons you name. I think you will find that the main difference between points of view will stem from a fundamental choice of how players percieve the game. Those who come from an MMO background will tend to look at the characters as Toons, whose objective is to achieve maximum DPS or boons/second in an optimized questing party. Those who come to DDO from an RPG perspective will place a greater value on some of the intangible aspects of the game, like purity of class.

The second difference I expect lies mainly in how often those players run those toons in small parties or solo. The survivability of a pure paladin is better in small/solo runs.

I played dnd when it was the redbox. In fact I have only played a couple of mmo's, and not very long. I love the realtime aspect of ddo, but your right I look at ddo from a powergame perspective. I could care less about the roleplay side of things. I look at a class and see a list of abilities.

I guess when I log on to play online with friends, I throw any roleplay out the window. I find as I am getting older (28 currently) that I do not care about story or roleplay anymore. I just want to blow stuff up and get better at blowing stuff up.

If I want to roleplay or enjoy a good dnd story, I just go back to NWN or NWN2.

[wiglin]

Gotta agree with the Gangwulfe and the rest of the Pally fans, pure pally offers a lot of benefits. My Barb regularly teams with a Paladin for short-man runs, and the characters compliment each other quite nicely...esp. the touches and that 1000+ point heal from the enhancement line when yours truly charges headfirst into a group of baddies! (I'm kinda a mana sponge at those times, but heck my Int is 8 and I play it to the hilt...heh)

I've no doubt that the class could be made better by Turbine...but. A good blade, sick saves, nice buffs, and powerful inherent abilities makes the Pally a welcome addition in my book.

I guess I am spoiled in that I have a cleric that handles all the healing. She keeps everyone alive. The typical party I am in does not need that much back up healing, because our cleric can handle all of it. The rest of us use wands and potions to top off after the battle.

Now a time or two I have pugged, and it would have been nice to have Gan'g there helping out, because the cleric was horrible, and when I say horrible, I mean healing the wizard that it out of spell points while the barbarian that is tanking the mob is going down.

[Borror0]

And your views on Warforged?

Even worse.

EDIT: Woot ninja!!

[MrCow]

I hate drow and dwarves, and will not build one. Elves, Humans, and Kender only.

And your views on Warforged?

[llevenbaxx]

I took the first two levels of my paly as ftr levels and kinda regret it. I like the durability/versatility of the class very much and will still benefit from most of it with 12 paly levels.

The good thing about 3.5 D&D is that you can build any class to handle different roles. I made my WF paly to be combat heavy and i will likily stick with the class from here on out. It was nice to pickup PA and cleave right out of the gates though. Have nothing bad at all to say about the paly class.

Have to ask though, whats the big deal with staying a pure classed as paly? Is it the no MCing rule from PnP(which I did stay true to:))? Or just the MMO crowd who are all hung up on the idea that pureclass anything should be superior to MC in some way?

[Zenako]

It is the tradeoff of Access to better/more powerful Enhancements and access to 4th level spells and more spell slots (plus the incremental changes on level dependant spells) vs the benefit of the other class you take. For some builds/playstyles the benefits of the extra feat(s) and low level enhancements are worth it, for others it is not.

[Jondallar]

Excellent points Gang, In my experience however, the only useful thing a pure pally offers is Deathward. I have as of yet found the true need for 30 point resist required usually its for burning blood/ acid rain that I need resists for, or on those rare times the party needs 30pt resists the mages/cleric usually have budgeted for the mana consumption, or I just use a nice lvl 12 resist energy wand and a lvl 10 prot from energy wand (easily purchased for a reasonable price on the AH) with UMD, because its maxed because I took rogue levels, and can evade many AOE damage spells.
UMDing Heal scrolls trumps 70 pt heals, I have better gear, and see better gear than +5 holy cold iron sword on the AH. Pure Pally's are not gimped by any means, they just dont have hi end advantages as of yet, that out weigh IMO the benefits of multiclassing (which is not allowed in PnP because it would be over powering and unbalancing).

One thing I will say, having a pure Paladin in your group when new content comes out is definately a bonus, because you are prepared for everything. However after a couple of runs I know what to expect and can bring the right supplies to compensate enough and even out perform in other area's. Now if I could only pull a darn set of Flesh render gogs after 10+ runs of tangleroot on my mains. Also Pure Pally is very handy for shortmanning things when no cleric is available.

[Gangwulfe]

Jond, one of the main reasons you always seem to miss, that actually occured to me over the past few months is that by me being basically IMMUNE to any and all sorts of damage, AND have the mana / healing that if I do happen to take damage along the way in a quest... I can self sustain myself with basically zero mana needing to be spent by the cleric. Basically what this means is my character is the very best "team player" that she could ossibly be.

You have any idea how much players who are clerics like to hear things like... "oh by the way, you do not have to heal me unless I am in citical condition, and I am immune to everything cause I can buff for any situation". "Oh, and I can also got enough mana that I can do in combat healing also to help you out".

It is usually a good way to get on cleric's friend's lists. :)

So basically, what my character brings to the table is the direct ability to make a group stronger, via being so self sustaining, and usuful utility wize, that just haveing me around allows the group to get better overall useage of thier mana recources.

Not that I like DV's, but giveing me DV's is a much better idea than say, that oercasting wizzie also.

And last but not least, I doubt you or anyone else has a better weapon currently than holy sword. Let's break it down.

+ 5 wep = lv 8
Holy = + 4 levels
Cold Iron = + 2 Levels
Persistant Prot Evil = + 2 levels (although I think it is worth more than that)
--------

Minimum lv 16 AH item.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know there is probabaly some nice raid gear, but I doubt everyone and thier brother is running around with more than lv 16 weapons that they could choose what they want it to be, depending on what they are fighting and their speciality. :)

Gang

[Cowdenicus]

Clerics > Pallies.

WF Pallies though rock pretty much.

[RTN]

If you're using Holy Sword, then you're not using Cure Serious Wounds or Deathward or Restoration. A lvl 14 pure paladin can memorize one of them. Your logic is flawed as you keep on switching up what you can bring to a party. If you're bringing big healing spells, then you lose the Holy Sword, Restoration or Deathward.

If I understand things correctly, moving the cap to 16 will give a pure paladin one more lvl 4 spell. I'm not sure that's worth it and I have a capped pure paladin that I like. Two levels of Rogue will give you evasion (if you have the armor for it). A single level of fighter gets you Towershield (free feat) and another feat and cheaper access to fighter skills (ex. Intimidate) and new enhancements (like an extra pt of STR). Two levels of fighter gives you an effective 3 more feats than a pure paladin. Compare the 14/2 Paladin/Fighter or Paladin/Rogue. Is one more lvl 4 spell and some mana worth more than those things? I doubt it. That's why people are complaining.

If you're roleplaying (which you say you do some), then keeping a paladin pure might be worth it, but most people aren't rping.

Survivability, something Paladins excel at, like you wrote, isn't really affected by several levels of another class and Evasion might even improve it with our high saves. I think a couple levels of another class once you hit 11 doesn't even really affect your usefulness to a party as a buffer or secondary healer. However, that's about all you'll do very well. DPS really falls behind, AC is better for fighters (and the ACs we can easily reach aren't very useful at higher levels, especially on elite), Intimidate isn't a class skill, etc. etc.

Regarding Holy Sword, I could care less about the ML of a weapon. That's a really artificial measurement of value. I'd take a high plus holy burst weapon over it any day and with a few exceptions, out DPS it. +2 AC is largely meaningless at higher levels and you can do more damage with other weapons quite easily (using bursting, bane, or a combo of the two). DDO is monty haul, so Holy Sword isn't that great by comparison.

The thread in the development section has some cool enhancement ideas for things they could do to make continuing with pure paladins worth it. Or they could put out a general roadmap of prestige classes they're toying with that might have something cool you'd need to be pure paladin to take.

Otherwise there is little beyond PnP loyalty to the ideal of the paladin that is lost by taking a couple levels of another class after lvl 11 or especially after 14. Another spell and some mana, that's all.

I sure hope some devs are reading these threads!

[Gangwulfe]

Paladins do not need evasion. My evasion is called makeing every save on a 2+ and haveing 30 point resistances to everything. If I roll a one, I have the same damage comeing in as a rogue who missed the roll.

Yes, you only get 1 slot and I was merely pointing out that ever spell was worthwhile, so this is why you need to stay pure to get as many of them as you can.

Gang

[wiglin]

Paladins do not need evasion. My evasion is called makeing every save on a 2+ and haveing 30 point resistances to everything. If I roll a one, I have the same damage comeing in as a rogue who missed the roll.

Yes, you only get 1 slot and I was merely pointing out that ever spell was worthwhile, so this is why you need to stay pure to get as many of them as you can.

Gang

Evasion also means being lazy when running through spike traps.

In all seriousness. Evasion will become more effective against spells, because 30-point resists will only block...well 30 points. As we gain levels the damage from spells will increase, so evasion will maintain its effetiveness when 30-point resists lose some of their ump.

Evasion is nice, but your right it is not needed especially under the current cap. Damage from most spikes and traps can be negated by good twitch skills. I like evasion though.

If money isn't an issue then umd'ing heal scrolls makes up for all those 70point cures.

Deathward has a farmable clicky.

I would rather use a "bursting of element damage" over a "+5 holy cold iron". By level 14 the full bab classes shouldn't be having an issue hitting things, so a +5 holy isn't more appealing to me than a +3 holy of righteousness or +3 holy cold iron.

[MrCow]

I sure hope some devs are reading these threads!

I sure hope the devs are only reading threads that truly require attention and are picked out by people not assigned to development tasks (like Quarion). I would much rather have the devs... develop! :D

[wiglin]

I sure hope the devs are only reading threads that truly require attention and are picked out by people not assigned to development tasks (like Quarion). I would much rather have the devs... develop! :D

I don't know.......... Some of what has been developed lately, I could have done without.

[Riekan]

Not that I'm advocating multiclassing paladins, and I prefer to stay pure myself in the hopes of better things to come, but your logic here is a little flawed. You say your evasion is 30 point resists and that you'd take the same damage as the rogue who fails a save. However, 30 point resists come at level 11, so the 12 paladin/2 rogue also has 30 point resists. If they roll a 1, they're taking 1/2 damage - 30 which pretty much means no damage. Even if they were only at 20 point resists, they'd still probably come out ahead with evasion. This doesn't seem to be arguable, but a simple matter of math.

As much as you are advocating staying pure, the ONLY current reason to do it in today's game is for flavor. There are no game mechanics currently in DDO to warrent taking more than 11 levels of paladin. Yes, the level 4 spells are nice, but not necessarily better than a multiclassed plan. Now, as I said earlier, I too am staying pure, but it is a matter of personal choice based in no part on being better in the game.

[EinarMal]

[quote=Riekan;1408102]You say your evasion is 30 point resists and that you'd take the same damage as the rogue who fails a save. However, 30 point resists come at level 11, so the 12 paladin/2 rogue also has 30 point resists. If they roll a 1, they're taking 1/2 damage - 30 which pretty much means no damage. Even if they were only at 20 point resists, they'd still probably come out ahead with evasion. This doesn't seem to be arguable, but a simple matter of math.
quote]

What Gang is saying is that the 14 Pally and the 12/2 would both only FAIL a reflex save on a one. If the pure pally makes their save then they take half damage most/all of which is soaked up by the 30 pt. resist. If the pally/rogue makes their save they take zero damage regardless of resist (what evasion does). If they fail their save they both take the same amount of damage. So as long as the 30 pt. resist is enough to soak up half the damage evasion does the pally no good.

Evasion does not help at all when you fail the save.
Evasion (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

[Gangwulfe]

See above post for a better reason why evasion is not needed for a Paladin.

I also did not kow they fixed the lgiht armour part, so yea... even more of a reason.

As to the comment before that wich stated that there is "no advantage" to takeing the levels past 11 as a paladin I guess that better...

Mana, spell slots, buffs, BaB, Enhancements, HP, Smites, LoH's, Turn Undeads, Spell Timers, caster level (dispelling purposes) Cure diseases, and Faith tenants and Overall healing ability..... are all concidered "Nothing worth getting".

:)

Gang

[wiglin]

See above post for a better reason why evasion is not needed for a Paladin.

I also did not kow they fixed the lgiht armour part, so yea... even more of a reason.

As to the comment before that wich stated that there is "no advantage" to takeing the levels past 11 as a paladin I guess that better...

Mana, spell slots, buffs, BaB, Enhancements, HP, Smites, LoH's, Turn Undeads, Spell Timers, caster level (dispelling purposes) Cure diseases, and Faith tenants and Overall healing ability..... are all concidered "Nothing worth getting".

:)

Gang

I wouldn't say they are not worth getting. This is where it comes down to player preference in how they like to play. As for me, I reside a little more in the powergame camp with some favoritism to certain races. When I see what paladin gets after say level 11 or 12, I compare that to what I would get for 2 rogue levels, or 1 fighter level. From a powergame perspective, the paladin's post level 11 gains have enough of a diminishing return on them when compared to tower shield feat, evasion, or having a 38 umd, that its not uncommon to multi-class.

I think what may be the kicker is if the level cap ever gets to 20 and Turbine adds an attack at the highest bab. Then pure paladin's will have better dps then the one that took rogue for evasion. When the level cap was 10 I would have never given up my last attack for evasion or umd.

It just comes down to player preference, and at the end of the day any good player can take a build and make it effective.

When I look at the current post level 11 paladin abilities, I do not see anything that I feel I would rather have, more than evasion and a 38 umd.

My drow paladin that I am working on will where a mithril chain shirt and be able to self buff to 50+ ac. I will have 300ish spell points, my 3 loh will hit for 176, I will be able to use heal scrolls on a 2, pick almost every lock in the game, and have an intimidate of 40+.

I will take that over paladin levels 13 and 14.

[axebender]

the big problem is that since we are not at lvl 20 and beyond a paladin cannot plan his future..we have no idea what a lvl 20 pally will be like so the quickest path to power is taken...wich the sexy thing for pally now adays is evasion...now i have my opinions on that and it does have its usefulness..but i just cant seem to take myself down the evasion road ..its just not a paladin. i wanted to play a paladin in ddo not some batman hybrid or super dps build with ok saves and gets damage..i wanted the best..pure paladin..ok a bit much in todays ddo but i believe paladins have hope..we will not be forgotten..something must be done for the pure pally in ddo.

your friendly paladin advocate sexy axebender

[Gangwulfe]

Don't you need a 22 dex to get the max benefit from + 5 mihteral Chain? Isn't that a bit high for a Paladin?

I was thinking about this, scine you need to wear light armour.

Gang

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Don't you need a 22 dex to get the max benefit from + 5 mihteral Chain? Isn't that a bit high for a Paladin?

I was thinking about this, scine you need to wear light armour.

Gang

Well, you could make a dex based weapon finesse pally. It'll just be unusual.

[wiglin]

Don't you need a 22 dex to get the max benefit from + 5 mihteral Chain? Isn't that a bit high for a Paladin?

I was thinking about this, scine you need to wear light armour.

Gang

13 Base +1Tome +2Enhancement (Drow,Rogue) +6Item =22

I also chose the light armor route to minimize arcane spell failure from scrolls. When I get a hold of some nice looking mithril breastplate, I can always drop the dex enhancements.

You can view what I am planning here.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=125513

[Jondallar]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Hawtty Hotpants
Level 14 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(2 Fighter \ 10 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 218
Spell Points: 238
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 20
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 13 18
Constitution 9 10
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 14 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 6 12
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 0 0
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 8
Heal 1 2
Hide 2 6
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 7 16
Listen 1 4
Move Silently 6 10
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot 5 6
Swim 7 10
Tumble 6 8
Use Magic Device 7 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 2 (Paladin)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 7 (Paladin)

Level 8 (Paladin)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Paladin)

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 13 (Paladin)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


With all my gear this lil critter has
235 mana (higher with +6 wisdom ring)
316 hp
str28
dex22
con16
int 10(base)
wis14 (base, have had it up to 20 with +6 wisdom ring but find greater false life ring more useful atm
cha 24
My saves are all in the 20's fort/reflex 28ish will 21-23ish (w/o +6 wis ring)
Standing Light Armor AC of 45, self buffed up to 50 for extended periods (though I am still looking for a +5 Transmuting Khopesh of parrying;) to keep the DPS up with ac) higher with self buffed wands of recitation

I use every scroll 40umd and under, have easy access to 30 pt resist wands, and 10min 120 pt Prot from energy wands. I survive everything and can comeback and rez the entire party. Deathward either via spell, farmable clicky or festivus cake is all I lack.

For comparison sake and because I like the way she clearly in respectful ways does it I invite Gang to critique/contrast her Pure Paladin vs. Hawtty Hotpants.

BTW for RP purposes Hawtty is a special operations agent for the silverflame, she is allowed to be "multiclassed" because the flame through Jaela Daran has sent her down a path that requires a variety of abilities normally outside the path of a true Paladin. It is with utter faith and conviction that Hawtty pursues the battle savy traits of the fighter and falls back to her quick and shifty skilled roguish ways (she first learned before she came to the flame). Knowing full well that the Silverflame continues to bless her in her fight against evil on Eberron.

[Gangwulfe]

First off, I don;t like useing gear slots / enhancement points for Dex as a fighter, as you are giveing up something to get them, but yeah... lets assume you were going to do so.

How about this build?

Human

Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 14


Modified

Str 15 + 3 (level) + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 item = 28
Dex 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
Con 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
Int 8 (add a + 2 tome if you want more skills)
Wisdom 14 + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 (item) = 24
Charisma 14 + 3 (tome) + 2 (Pal Cha) + 6 item = 26

I used 10 points of tomes, because you did also.

Feats = Dodge - Toguhness - Power Attack - Mental Toughness - Imp. Crit - Imp Mental Toughness - (lv 15 / 18) Extend spell / Empower Healing.

As long as you have mitheral chain, Ill take mith FP.

Ill take Pal cha 2, Bulwark 2, Resistance 2, Human adapt 1 (Cha) Human Adapt 2 (Str) , Faith tenants 2 (Sovern host) Toughness 4, Templar 3, Devotion 3, Item def 1. Smites 1. Loh 1. Improved Recovery 2.

Lets see how it pans out.

DPS -- I have the same Str, but get an extra 1 to hit in my basic BaB (your rogue level) and I have the faith tenant for longswords. This means I have a +2 to hit on you. You have the Kopesh. Since half the things in game can not be critted (see new material for deatails) I would MUCH rather have a + 2 to hit, over an extra 1d8 of damage on a confirmed crit. At lv 20, I will have 6 attacks, where as you will have only 5. Advantage -- My build. (But only Slightly)


HP -- With similar false life items equipped you have 6 less Con than me, and 8 total HP less for the 2 rogue levels. This is a grand total of 50 Hp. At lv 20, this will be 68 points difference. Advantage -- My Build.

AC -- You use Mitheral Chain, I use Mitheral Plate. I beat you by 1 ac. Advantage -- My build. (Slightly)

Mana -- I have an extra mental toughness feat, and 10 more Wisdom. I also have 4 more levels of Paladin to get Mana. I will have about doubble or more your mana pool. Advantage -- My build.

Saves -- I have a higher Charisma, and I have a MUCH higher Con / Wisdom than you. I have an equal Dex. You have some halfling luck. I am less 1 reflex than you, but more 6 will and 4 fort. Advantage -- My build.

Spell slots / buffs / healing. -- I have across the board stronger heals, stronger buffs, and stronger resists. I have more spells to cast. I get to use all of my spells to their fullest potential. You can use any spell you want, but they are weak versions of the full spells. You have utility, but make up for quality with quanity. Advantage -- Push

Skills -- I have Jump, concentrate, and balance. You have the same, with some spot / listen / haggle / move silently / bluff thrown in for good measure. You also have a ton of UMD. Advantage -- Your build.

Class Abilities -- I have better LoH / Smites / Turns / More potent spells. You have evasion. Since I make all my saves on a 2+, and I can buff 30 points vs. anything, evasion is wasted. I roll a 1 on my save, I will take just as much damage as you do, or less even because I have better resists than you. I also can grant a simple weapon user the longsword proficiency, and I can do the heal spell once every 10 mins for free. I also recieve 10 pct more from heals than you do. Advantage -- My build


After reading this. You might argue that your evasion, and UMD is worth all that you gave up to get it. I on the other hand would like to point out the contrary. I in no way shape or form think the minimal benefit you recieved from evasion, and the ability to use scrolls, is even half as good as what you gave up to get it.

But, it is just my opinion.

Gang

[Borror0]

After reading this. You might argue that your evasion, and UMD is worth all that you gave up to get it. I on the other hand would like to point out the contrary. I in no way shape or form think the minimal benefit you recieved from evasion, and the ability to use scrolls, is even half as good as what you gave up to get it.

That is why I'm not goinhg rogue on Borror. While Evasion and UMD would be awesome, I'd be sacrificing BAB. Now, will I take Rogue at level 21 and 22, heck yes. (That is assumnig I understand the epic levels well.)

On a paladin, it depends. Paladins are support/secondary DPS class.

If you want to lean more toward support, high crazy UMD might be an option for you. At the same time, it'd allow you to get Evasion which incresse your durability. It's a trade of.

[Blazer]

Str 15 + 3 (level) + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 item = 28
Dex 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
Con 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
Int 8 (add a + 2 tome if you want more skills)
Wisdom 14 + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 (item) = 24
Charisma 14 + 3 (tome) + 2 (Pal Cha) + 6 item = 26

I used 10 points of tomes, because you did also.

Ahhh Gangwulfe is back and so are the questionable math skills. ;)

3 STR + 2 DEX + 2 CON + 3 WIS + 3 CHA = 13 points, including 3 +3 tomes. I know the point you're trying to make Gang, but let us be slightly reasonable here. Keep the numbers the same and try and limit yourself to one +3 tome since Jond did. I mean, I know how much you love to raid, but c'mon. :D

[Gangwulfe]

Whoo! Nice catch. I did not realize I did that. Hmm...

Well lets face it, I will never see a + 3 tome anyways, so whats the difference if I put 2 or 3 in the build? :P

Ok ok ok.. lets see.. lets take out the one of them...

Hmm...

Take the wisdom tome out, and add a + 1 tome to it... this is easily bought. Sure, I know it is technically 1 point more spent, but as long as were talking gonzo gear, does it "really" matter? All I would lose is like, 18 mana and 1 will save, in wich case I still got you on saves and mana.

The overall point of the last post, is that you can build a pure Paladin that offers a lot, and is not "gmped" when compared to a Pally / Rogue.

Nice catch Blazer. :)

Gang

[Jondallar]

DPS -- I have the same Str, but get an extra 1 to hit in my basic BaB (your rogue level) and I have the faith tenant for longswords. This means I have a +2 to hit on you. You have the Kopesh. Since half the things in game can not be critted (see new material for details) I would MUCH rather have a + 2 to hit, over an extra 1d8 of damage on a confirmed crit. At lv 20, I will have 6 attacks, where as you will have only 5. Advantage -- My build. (But only Slightly)
Hawtty is a halfling so she gets-2 str at the start, however +1 to hit because she is a halfling, this closes the gap even more, and I dont miss much. Difference is negligable, plus I get 5 clicks of 20 second +2 damage - rogue damage boost, and I can cast greater heroism at will, adding +4 to hit and damage.

HP -- With similar false life items equipped you have 6 less Con than me, and 8 total HP less for the 2 rogue levels. This is a grand total of 50 Hp. At lv 20, this will be 68 points difference. Advantage -- My Build.
Yup this build gives up HP, but she is preMod 4 when con wasnt as important as AC, However 316 hp seems to be fine, in most cases when I am going to die an extra 50 hp isnt gonna help, an extra 500 maybe but when I die it usually means that someting went very wrong:D. Greater Heroism and false life wands bring the gap at present lvl to under 30 hp

AC -- You use Mitheral Chain, I use Mitheral Plate. I beat you by 1 ac. Advantage -- My build. (Slightly)
If I ever get a silly kundarak Delving suit my AC will tie you :D

Mana -- I have an extra mental toughness feat, and 10 more Wisdom. I also have 4 more levels of Paladin to get Mana. I will have about doubble or more your mana pool. Advantage -- My build.
I cant remember the last time i ran out of mana on a quest

Saves -- I have a higher Charisma, and I have a MUCH higher Con / Wisdom than you. I have an equal Dex. You have some halfling luck. I am less 1 reflex than you, but more 6 will and 4 fort. Advantage -- My build.
I made a mistake on my saves before, I checked tonight, they are 29 fort, 29 reflex and 23 will (when not wearing my +6 wisdom ring which I can swap for fighting beholders, and other nastys that require high will save, also I can cast Greater Heroism pretty much at will from scrolls adding another +4 to my saves

Spell slots / buffs / healing. -- I have across the board stronger heals, stronger buffs, and stronger resists. I have more spells to cast. I get to use all of my spells to their fullest potential. You can use any spell you want, but they are weak versions of the full spells. You have utility, but make up for quality with quanity. Advantage -- Push

Skills -- I have Jump, concentrate, and balance. You have the same, with some spot / listen / haggle / move silently / bluff thrown in for good measure. You also have a ton of UMD. Advantage -- Your build.

Class Abilities -- I have better LoH / Smites / Turns / More potent spells. You have evasion. Since I make all my saves on a 2+, and I can buff 30 points vs. anything, evasion is wasted. I roll a 1 on my save, I will take just as much damage as you do, or less even because I have better resists than you. I also can grant a simple weapon user the longsword proficiency, and I can do the heal spell once every 10 mins for free. I also recieve 10 pct more from heals than you do. Advantage -- My build
When you make a save you get half damage which even with your extra 10 pts of resist (which I can match with wands) over time I would bet that my not taking half damage on successful rolls beats out the extra 10 points that you sometimes have that i dont. I totally agree that your smites are better, however, when it is a critable target, my weaker smites when critting are more damaging by far. My LoH are about 150 give or take (I cant remember) this is more than adequate when couple with the use of Heal scrolls and cure critical scrolls, my LoH buys me enough HP to then use my scrolls. I turned a rat on vol elite last week LOL I was so proud. Does anyone use Turn undead effectively?

As far as khopesh goes, I wish I didnt already have a heavy pick user because I would chose heavy pick over Khopesh. I find I get better DPS out of Heavy Picks. If I went heavy pick and got rid of the Khopesh feat I could take another combat feat Like weapon focus to add to my attack, or another toughness feat and add another 16 Hp, or add Improved Mental toughness for more mana, or even better take extend and then I might come close to using my mana. And Finally +4 Holy Burst Khopesh beats Holy Sword ;)



One thing I do know Gang, is that if we were ever in the same party it would do very very well at what ever we attempted. You can be my wingman er woman anyday;) And Also for the record this is my actual character with actual gear, no fake ideal gear here.

[Lillitheris]

Wow. Where to begin...

Gangwulfe, can you ask Turbine to give your 15 bucks back? We really don't need your unfounded arrogance.


Protection from Evil doesn't stack.
Remove Blindness is available on wands/pots.
Remove Curse is available on wands/pots.
Neutralize Poison is available on wands/pots.
Restoration is available on scrolls.
Holy Sword is a worthless spell. I have +4 Holy Cold Iron and +4 Holy of Righteousness (i.e. +6 holy) swords. Cold Iron doesn't add to the minimum level, it's a material.
Death Ward is available as an easily farmable clicky from Tangleroot.
Angelskin is DR 5/Evil. Most mobs we fight are Evil.
A level 11 paladin has 30 point resists.
Only useful enhancements past level 11 are Energy of the Templar III and Extra LoH III.
Turn Undead sucks.
Smites are not nearly as useful as they used to be. Cooldowns, inflated monster hit points etc.
You get access to the 2nd rank faith enhancements at level 9.

Et cetera et cetera...

Thank you Jondallar for "beating" her build. I'm not in the mood for number-crunching - otherwise I would've written a build similar to yours. I'm sick of seeing Gang praise her paladin as the hands-down-best build around.
The fact remains; there's so very little to be gained from staying pure paladin past level 11. End of story.

And all of this coming from me, a guy that has a capped pure paladin as his main.

[wiglin]

Well I will throw mine in here to compare.

Race: Drow
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class: (12 Paladin / 2 Rogue)


Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 300ish


Saves:
Fortitude: 23 +5Item +4GH =32
Reflex: 24 +5Item +4GH +1Haste =34
Will: 18 +5Item +4GH =27 /vs Enchantments =29


Stats:
Strength-------15 +3Level +2 FavorTome +6Item =26 (+8)
Dexterity------13 +1Tome +2Enhancement +6Item =22 (+6)
Constitution---11 +1Tome +6Item =18 (+4)
Intelligence---13 +1Tome =14 (+2)
Wisdom----------9 +1Tome +6Item =16 (+3)
Charisma-------17 +1Tome +2Enhancement +6Item =26 (+8)

Tomes Used at Level One
+1 Dex
+1 Con
+1 Int
+1 Wis
+1 Cha


Skills:
Intimidate---------25 +13Item +4GH =42
Jump---------------18
Open Lock----------13 +13Item 7Tools +4GH +2RSB =39
Use Magic Device---28 +3Item +1Item +4GH +2RSB =38


Level Progression:
Level 1 (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Level 2 (Paladin)
Level 3 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Level 4 (Paladin)
Level 5 (Paladin)
Level 6 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Level 7 (Paladin)
Level 8 (Paladin)
Level 9 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Level 10 (Rogue)
Level 11 (Paladin)
Level 12 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Level 13 (Paladin)
Level 14 (Paladin)


Enhacements:
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Vulkoor's Avatar
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


Attack Bonus: w/ Shortsword
13 Base
8 Stat
1 Haste
4 GH
3 Ehancement
3 Divine Power
5 Weapon
---------------
37
-5 Power Attack / or Combat Expertise
---------------
32


Armor Class:
10 Base
9 +5 MCS
6 Dex Bonus
5 Combat Expertise
7 +5 HMS
5 Protection
2 Chaos Guard
1 Aura
2 Enhancement
3 Barkskin Potion
1 Haste Potion
1 Parrying
----------------
52 Standing
2 Ranger in the party
----------------
54 Standing
2 Chattering Ring
----------------
56 Standing


spells: Swap Accordingly
L1: Divine Favor, Virtue
L2: Angel Skin, Resist Energy
L3: Cure Moderate Wounds


Angelskin says -5/evil.
I never saw anyone say it was alignment based. DR is useally based on the weapon, so just because a mob is evil does not mean they are using an evil weapon. Being a good aligned race does not mean all my weapons are good for the sake of oversoming dr. Did the devs ever say in concrete how this is working?

I am of the opinion that do to the real time twitch aspect of ddo, a character that specializes in buffing is a waste. You can specialize in one of the main categories (tank, dps, healer, cc) and still be a back up buffer.

Support works really well in turn based games or every other mmo because defeating the enemy comes down to overall party synergy were the support/buffer class really shines. In ddo though, all it takes is good player skill. DDO incorporates player skill better than any other mmo I have played.

Most other mmo's or digital dnd games are round based or turned based. Even if though most allow free movement they are still round based. You have a round based delay on your weapons, the mobs can hit you when you are half a mile a way...etc.

This is why I multiclass a paladin in ddo. You gain more than you lose for the mechanics of this game. 3.5 rules allow for some serious cheese in the builds. It is how it is set up, and when that makes its way to a game and certain restrictions cannot be implemented it gets even more cheesier. (My dwarf battlemage for instance)

Back on track. Here are the pros and cons, to losing 2 levels of paladin, as I see them.

Cons:
Level 4 spells - Can be replaced with an item.
1 more loh enhancement- I have 3 that do 176 each. (16 less than the human paladin above that used a +3 cha tome)
A few spell points - I'll give you this one.
1 less bab - +32 to hit on the first swing is 4 more than needed to hit hit consistently. This will only effect me if their is an additional attack at level 20.

Pros:
Evasion - This is more than spells. It works on physical damage traps where resist do nothing. Their will also be spells that do more than 30-points of damage on a save.
UMD 38- nuff said.
1d6 sneak attack - Very situational, but it is there.
Open Lock - I can open around 90% of all locks.
Intimidate 40+ - needed if you want to be a good tank.
Buffer for alot of skills - Swim, tumble, balance, etc... all get a little more love due taking rogue at level one.

[jmonty]

.esp. the touches and that 1000+ point heal from the enhancement line when yours truly charges headfirst into a group of baddies!
...

is that a human only enhancement??

[RTN]

is that a human only enhancement??

Yes, it's the human faith enhancement. 1st lvl gives you +1 to hit w/ longswords and the 2nd lvl of it gives a massive heal (although it doesn't remove negative lvls). Sovereign Host line of faith enhancements.

On evasion, don't forget that it also works for things like blade barrier, not just traps. Very nice out in the Desert and against the Demon Queen.

[Fennario]

Yes, it's the human faith enhancement. 1st lvl gives you +1 to hit w/ longswords and the 2nd lvl of it gives a massive heal (although it doesn't remove negative lvls). Sovereign Host line of faith enhancements.

On evasion, don't forget that it also works for things like blade barrier, not just traps. Very nice out in the Desert and against the Demon Queen.

My drow pally has these enhancements, so it is not human only. Any race can take the path of the Sovereign Host or Silver Flame. Elves, Warforged, or Drow each have a unique path they can alone choose instead of the other two:

Elves - Undying Court
Warforged - Lord of Blades
Drow - Vulkoor

[Gangwulfe]

First off to Lili...

Thank you for the arrogant reply to a thread that ws up untill your comment, not arrogant. I knew someone whould do it, but I guess you win the prize. Being he asked me for a build, it is why I posted one. Thanks for reminding me why I do not like to post on the forums as much as I once did.

As to your reasons...

Protection from Evil doesn't stack. -- Yes it does, read your combat logs.


Remove Blindness is available on wands/pots. -
Remove Curse is available on wands/pots.
Neutralize Poison is available on wands/pots.
Restoration is available on scrolls. -- Sure they are, but is it a terrible thing to be able to cast theese? I never said they were my spells I use at the moment, but when I have the spell slots, is it really terrible to be able to cast them?



Holy Sword is a worthless spell. I have +4 Holy Cold Iron and +4 Holy of Righteousness (i.e. +6 holy) swords. Cold Iron doesn't add to the minimum level, it's a material. -- The spell allows you to chose what you want the weapon to be, not everyone has that good of items. Also, the spell gives a persistant (non dispellable) version of protion from evil. It does not suck.


Death Ward is available as an easily farmable clicky from Tangleroot. -- Wich is only 7 mins, and just how many do you have? I got 3 and I still run out.


Angelskin is DR 5/Evil. Most mobs we fight are Evil. -- There is a lot of non evil things outhe there, Golems and other assorted constructs come to mind.

A level 11 paladin has 30 point resists. -- Too bad his build is 10 Pal, 2 Rogue, 2 Fighter, Reading comprehension FTW.

Only useful enhancements past level 11 are Energy of the Templar III and Extra LoH III. -- Again he is only lv 10, but still I think that there are other good things to get.

Turn Undead sucks. -- I had no troubble turning CR 13 undead in the new content. If you know how the system works, it does not suck one bit.

Smites are not nearly as useful as they used to be. Cooldowns, inflated monster hit points etc. -- If they suck so bad then why did he spend all thsoe enhancement points to get more of them?

You get access to the 2nd rank faith enhancements at level 9. -- Of which he has none. Once again, reading comprehension FTW.

I think you get the point.

To Jond --

Personally, I think your build looks great. if I was going to change it in any way, I would not put the 6 build ino getting your Str up that 1 rank, when I could spend the points elsewhere... also I would find a way to get your open lock / search up since you got the rogue level. other than that, it looks great. I will say though, that I am not sure how you got such a high UMD, and would not mind if you gave me a breakdown of that, and what your actual gear slots are so I can compare it to what I would do.

As a respnce to your questions though... (In paregraph order)

I forgot Halfling Luck. You are correct. This bring the DPS to almsot even, and then relies on things like damage boosts. You got me. You are even stephen on this.

2 -- The HP wands is irrelevant. I got like, 15 or so false life clickies on my toon. I use them all the time. I also use virtue constantly, so the basic number of HP is the core difference here, wich I clearly win on.

3 -- Ac, not much to say, but it is close.

4 -- Mana The core difference here is in combat healing, and out of combat healing. You say you never run out of mana, but honestly, I think thats because you only have things like divine favor and virtue to use it on. Me on the other hand, i use it to heal the group in the thick of things. Typically, I get 2 or 3 uses per shrine of my faith tenant (full heal) and 2 loh's. I then also got about 15-20 70 point heals to use when times get tough. Sure, you can say you use heal scrolls but still, I think with the ammount of healing I have the scrolls are a waste. Out of combat I can also use potions and wands to supplement my mana, so basically my mana is used for direct party healing support. One thing I think that people are missing about the wands and things is that I also can use any wand or potion for spells I can cast, so... I also can supplemenet my mana bar like this. The only real benefit you get from your scroll use over me is wizzie spells (I am not a big fan of low DC / spell level scrolls ever and also high UMD checks and arcane chance of spell failure) and high level cleric spells that the cleric should be casting anyways. Granted, I have never used scrolls, but i always just figure I will have the coresponding class around that should be doing their job, so why should I worry about being able to do everything?


Last paregraph is just drawing a lot of straws I think. We are delving so deeply into the number crunching game to tr and figure out what is better that in the end... does it really matter? I highly doubt that you will see such a noticable difference in such matters that it will really make any sort of relevance.

Anyways, the point of this thread is to show that even if your build beats a pure Paladin in some areas, the pure paladin makes up for it in other areas, and by no way shape or means should be concidered gimp. To say that they get "nothing" as they progress I think is just untrue.

Gang

[Jondallar]

pure paladin by no way shape or means should be concidered gimp. To say that they get "nothing" as they progress I think is just untrue.

Gang

QFT (but slightly edited;) )

Yet most people I know with lvl 14 Paladins are either: a) disappointed that Paladin's have so much more incentive to multiclass compared to what they get in return for staying pure as they see it; or b) Stoiclly staying pure for RP purposes/on Principle because Pally's shouldnt Multi. I would not exclude a pug because they were pure paladin, I would not think they are gimped either. But I also would not roll up a pure Paladin (my most favorite class in PnP, or any fantasy setting) unless they receive some love from the devs instead of constant nerfs.

I think if Paladins were actually restricted from Multiclassing as per PnP then the Dev's could actually give some sweet enhancements that only the pally could have. The problem is that Paladins just dont translate to MMO form from PnP. The whole Alignment meaning nothing in the game makes it impossible to impliment Paladins as they should be...a very powerful but difficult to play character type. They water Paladin down because it can be multiclassed, if that option werent there then there would be no reason to water the class down realtive to the other melee classes.

[efreet5]

I have a lvl 14 halfling paladin that I am having a blast with! I just couldn't see any reason to take the fighter lvls. All I'd ahve gotten was an extra +1 to hit from weapon focus and another useless feat. However, when the cap is raised, if there is not a good reason provided via enhancements to stay pure I may split off to fighter; however, there's no feats that I could see being worth the split.

[Jondallar]

I'm sick of seeing Gang praise her paladin as the hands-down-best build around.


In all fairness Lilli, Gang has never said her build was the best, just that it was viable, and the reasons why she thinks it is. Also Gang is not arrogant, or at least from the posts of hers that I have read she does not make arrogant posts. To attack her in such an abrasive and rude way just is not fair nor accurate.

I think the discussion up this point is very informative for people interested in playing some variation of Paladin. The pro's and cons of doing both Pure and Multi-class have been expressed in a civil yet passionate manner leaving the reader to decide which POV they like for themselves. I dont think that either Gang or myself will be swayed from ours which is fine.

[Cowdenicus]

Pure pallies are the suck, but I am building currently a 12 pally 4 fighter that is Warforged and will rule the universe.

[Gangwulfe]

Jond, I actually missed that part of her insult, as I stopped reading it... :D

When did I say my build for my paladin was the best? I mean come on now..

I built a character that does not take power attack out of roleplaying reasons (Collette is too physically weak to use it even though in game purposes she has the requiremenet), uses tower sheilds to perpetuate her life long clumsiness, AND truth be told is "suposed" to be a human (via my PnP toon that Collette origionally was) but made her an elf because it is the better looking choice, and the elves in this game give better longsword enhancements. (Collette is suposed to be a master of styles and forms of fighting with a longsword, but in practical application is so clumsy and so underconfident that she can not put any of this knowledge to good use.

Heck, Collette is PnP is a HUMAN FIGHTER but the backstory of her and and how she is "protected" by her slain family it fit much easier to make her a Paladin to give her abilites that represented how she was "protected". Her spells / auras / mana bar represent her innate divine protection she recieves, eventhough on the surface she appears to be a hapless girl who can barely hold conversation in mixed company, much less hold her own in combat.

So please, I never said my Paladin build was the best ever. If you actually saw how she is played, and what limitations I have placed upon her for purely roleplay reasons, you will see that the build has a LOT of places that she could do better in.

All I am saying is that Paladins are not toally gimped, and that the skill of a player can overcome any and all gear / build problems you might have.

Gang

[Lillitheris]

First of all Gangwulfe.. the things I listed weren't meant to compare your build to Jondallar's. They just prove the point that a 11 paladin / 3 <insert class(es)> is almost always better than a pure paladin. I'm just glad somebody threw a superior build out there and I thanked Jondallar for doing so.
Reading comprehension? Read my last paragraph and consider using his instead of her. Pot? Kettle!

2nd. It's not the first time you post this kind of stuff. Way back in the summer (I think) you posted in a similar thread. It has probably been destroyed in the Great Thread Wipe (tm), but you know what I'm talking about. There you, basically flat-out, stated your "mana-build" is better than any other paladin out there. I see the same pattern in your posts in this thread.

Anyway, I don't feel like arguing anymore. I apologize for my harsh words.
I truly believe Collette is a great character. BUT. I also truly believe she would be even better with 2 levels of fighter or rogue splashed in.
I think we have at least one thing in common. It makes me sad to even type it, but here goes: a pure paladin has nothing on a multiclassed paladin, save maybe the 14 min Death Wards.

End of story.

[jmonty]

i'm with the pure pally crowd; hopefully when/if the level cap raises it will reward pure classes.

[Slayer918]

Ok heres how I would go with what you want to do and make it an evasion build with no +3 tomes and 1 +2 tome


First off, I don;t like useing gear slots / enhancement points for Dex as a fighter, as you are giveing up something to get them, but yeah... lets assume you were going to do so.

How about this build?

Human

Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 14


Modified

Str 15 + 3 (level) + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 item = 28
16 +3 (level) +2 (tome) +1 (Human adapt) +6 item = 28
Dex 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
14 +6 item +1 tome +1 rogue enhancement = 22
Con 14 + 6 item + 2 (tome) = 22
12 +6 item = 18 (w/o the tome were 14 hp apart and actually this is only cuz I don't have the +3 str tome so I had to raise that to 16)
Int 8 (add a + 2 tome if you want more skills)
Wisdom 14 + 3 (tome) + 1 (Human adapt) + 6 (item) = 24
14 +6 item +1 tome +1 human adaptability = 22 (again the tome seperates us)
Charisma 14 + 3 (tome) + 2 (Pal Cha) + 6 item = 26
14 +1 tome +6 item +1 enhancement = 22 (you actually have 25 above so the tome is what seperates us...)

I used 10 points of tomes, because you did also.

Feats = Dodge - Toguhness - Power Attack - Mental Toughness - Imp. Crit - Imp Mental Toughness - (lv 15 / 18) Extend spell / Empower Healing.
I'll take the same... although drop dodge for skill focus UMD heres a breakdown for you as well - 17 ranks +6 cha +3 golden cartouche +4 GH +3 skill focus +2 head of good fortune = 35... 36 w/ your +3 tome and +2 from human versatility although this is mainly for buffing between shrines

As long as you have mitheral chain, Ill take mith FP.
Mith FP is a little rarer then chain but with all the loot in this build w/e w/ +6 items in this build its not like were building for the casual gamer right?

Ill take Pal cha 2, Bulwark 2, Resistance 2, Human adapt 1 (Cha) Human Adapt 2 (Str) , Faith tenants 2 (Sovern host) Toughness 4, Templar 3, Devotion 3, Item def 1. Smites 1. Loh 1. Improved Recovery 2.

Lets see how it pans out.

DPS -- I have the same Str, but get an extra 1 to hit in my basic BaB (your rogue level) and I have the faith tenant for longswords. This means I have a +2 to hit on you. You have the Kopesh. Since half the things in game can not be critted (see new material for deatails) I would MUCH rather have a + 2 to hit, over an extra 1d8 of damage on a confirmed crit. At lv 20, I will have 6 attacks, where as you will have only 5. Advantage -- My build. (But only Slightly)
when you can crit its more then an extra 1d8 its 1d8 + damage modifier you will have 6 attacks to my 5 at level 20... so in like 2 years you will have a slight advantage?


HP -- With similar false life items equipped you have 6 less Con than me, and 8 total HP less for the 2 rogue levels. This is a grand total of 50 Hp. At lv 20, this will be 68 points difference. Advantage -- My Build.
my build has 2 less con and then the 8 points for 22 hp again I had to start my con lower because of your str tome so 8 hp difference?

AC -- You use Mitheral Chain, I use Mitheral Plate. I beat you by 1 ac. Advantage -- My build. (Slightly)
I dont have dodge now so your at +2 AC, kunderak delving suit at your at +1... recitation scroll and your at -1...

Mana -- I have an extra mental toughness feat, and 10 more Wisdom. I also have 4 more levels of Paladin to get Mana. I will have about doubble or more your mana pool. Advantage -- My build.
Now I'm not an expert on paladins but I think you should have 12 sp more then me from 2 more levels * 6 wisdom modifier and maybe 20-40ish from base sp pool (I know its only like 100 base sp at level 10ish so it can't be a ton...) I also lose the ability to mem a level 4 spell I think (maybe a 2nd level 3 as well?)

Saves -- I have a higher Charisma, and I have a MUCH higher Con / Wisdom than you. I have an equal Dex. You have some halfling luck. I am less 1 reflex than you, but more 6 will and 4 fort. Advantage -- My build.
without your fancy tomes are saves are now equal... plus if it even matters I could have 25 self buffed SR through a greater SR scroll - push

Spell slots / buffs / healing. -- I have across the board stronger heals, stronger buffs, and stronger resists. I have more spells to cast. I get to use all of my spells to their fullest potential. You can use any spell you want, but they are weak versions of the full spells. You have utility, but make up for quality with quanity. Advantage -- Push
My heals will be less then yours and I'll have slightly less then you granted... I have heal scrolls though... I agree here - push... however I also have raise dead scrolls, true seeing scrolls, recitation scrolls, displacement scrolls, summon scrolls, reconstruct scrolls for our metal friends, enervation scrolls if needed, do they make fire shield scrolls?, stoneskin scrolls, teleport, greater teleport (if needed), blur level 10 wands, protection from energy level 10 wands, wands of expeditious retreat level 10 to save me a slot on a striding item... so maybe not a push? I get all those scrolls for deathward and at most 50ish sp? seems fair to me...

Skills -- I have Jump, concentrate, and balance. You have the same, with some spot / listen / haggle / move silently / bluff thrown in for good measure. You also have a ton of UMD. Advantage -- Your build.
how do you have 3 skills maxxed on a 2 base skill point class with -1 int and +1 human (or are you counting the +2 tome) I will have slightly lower jump, concentration, and balance scores then you... then again I'm in MBP your in MFP...

Class Abilities -- I have better LoH / Smites / Turns / More potent spells. You have evasion. Since I make all my saves on a 2+, and I can buff 30 points vs. anything, evasion is wasted. I roll a 1 on my save, I will take just as much damage as you do, or less even because I have better resists than you. I also can grant a simple weapon user the longsword proficiency, and I can do the heal spell once every 10 mins for free. I also recieve 10 pct more from heals than you do. Advantage -- My build
mmhmm you have better smites (though I always forget em on my paly), loh, turns (I don't even use em on my cleric...), I'll make my saves on a 2+ (Dragon elite is what like 150 points a tick so your at 75 -30 = 45 while im at 0... and I think as we get higher levels we will see higher spell damages... and as some one else said blade barrier... cometfall and flamestrike(half of this anyways) are both bludgeoning damage) I can have that 10 % from heals as well

After reading this. You might argue that your evasion, and UMD is worth all that you gave up to get it. I on the other hand would like to point out the contrary. I in no way shape or form think the minimal benefit you recieved from evasion, and the ability to use scrolls, is even half as good as what you gave up to get it.
I havnt given up quite so much now have I? I think your trying to compair apples to oranges here... with a build closer to what you lay out its much closer to you as far as abilities go no?

But, it is just my opinion.

Gang

The thing is is that jond's build and your build aren't really similar... and yet you compare them... you should take 2 builds based around the same things... one w/ 2 levels of rogue and one pure to see the real difference

I hope this helps illustrate why people complain that pure paladins need MORE benefits over multiclassed ones

I agree with you Gang... pure paladins aren't "Gimped" it just sucks that theres so little encentive to keep them pure...

O and nice RP perspective Jond

[Corvid7]

I have a lvl 14 halfling paladin that I am having a blast with! I just couldn't see any reason to take the fighter lvls. All I'd ahve gotten was an extra +1 to hit from weapon focus and another useless feat. However, when the cap is raised, if there is not a good reason provided via enhancements to stay pure I may split off to fighter; however, there's no feats that I could see being worth the split.


I also love my halfling paladin! I'm only 12, but I'm having so much fun. I have a +40 AC and a decent amount of HP (don't have my character here right now). I also maxed out the Halfling Dragonmark of healing, so I have 8 cure lights, 6 cure serious and 4 Heals at my disposal, plus the enhancement 1000 hp heal. For my 12th level feat, I took empowered healing. If buffed well, I can stop fighting in the middle of a huge fight, throw down diplomacy and help out Clerics out of mana. Or I have subbed as a Cleric with smaller groups. Not to mention I can solo things fairly well. Paladins rule! (Not as fun as wizards....but what is...)

[bigj1608]

Higher Pally level means better Turn undead. I was able to turn the cr 13 undeads in the new zone tonight, so I still think it is worthwhile if you know how it works.

Do tell

[KoboldKiller]

Yes heed to OP well, purity is the only correct path for the Paladin. -Leothalas

[Jondallar]

Originally Posted by Gangwulfe
Higher Pally level means better Turn undead. I was able to turn the cr 13 undeads in the new zone tonight, so I still think it is worthwhile if you know how it works.

I turned a rat in Temple of Vol Elite on Jondallar (9 levels of Paladin, 26 cha);), I know this should go in the achievements forum, but Gang brought it up b4 and Kolboldkiller necro'd the post, with his Jihad rantings about pure Paladin's ridding the world of the "impure":p.

I dare ya to try Leo, Everything you can do I can do better, and with more style, while GH'd blured and displaced from wands and scrolls LOL:eek:;)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I turned a rat in Temple of Vol Elite on Jondallar (9 levels of Paladin, 26 cha);), I know this should go in the achievements forum, but Gang brought it up b4 and Kolboldkiller necro'd the post, with his Jihad rantings about pure Paladin's ridding the world of the "impure":p.

I dare ya to try Leo, Everything you can do I can do better, and with more style, while GH'd blured and displaced from wands and scrolls LOL:eek:;)

Maybe so, but we wont burn at the stake.

[KoboldKiller]

I did no such thing as Necro this post. I mearly stated my support, in a round about way, of supporting the pure Paladin. I have now and always will be a pure Paladin, this is my choice. I suppose I understand why people cross class Paladins with Rogue or whatever and that is your choice. I don't see why people feel being pure is a waste or in any way gimps the class. A gimped class is all in how the person plays it. My pure Paladin has no issues in game with either back up healer or tanking. The majority of the time since I have a small guild and we run 3-4 man groups I end up being the main or only tank and we have been quite sucessful.

[Jondallar]

My apologies re: saying you necro'd the thread KK, didnt check that BigJ posted b4 you.

Never said you were gimped, just responding to all of the calling my paladin's heretics that should be burned at the stake. And technically, a true "Paladin" would only judge someone on their actions and intentions, and My pally's are Lawful good and receive blessings from the silverflame and the sovereign host respectively, so there would be no way to tell who is "pure" and who isnt.

[KoboldKiller]

No harm no foul. You are correct in saying that you could not tell who is pure and who isn't unless they pick a lock. :D Actually I may have to ammend my stand on purity as the "Cavalier" build I am toying with would require a Fighter/Paladin. Again I am purely joking about "purity", it's been my little "joke" since I've been here.

[DoctorWhofan]

Having 2 pure pallys and 2 splashed pallys, I like my pure better. Ironically for the same reasons. Survivability, buffing, healing, raising, AC, hitting things, HP, etc.

[Nemonon]

not sure if anyone pointed this out yet but i'm pretty sure as of mod 6 pallys holy sword will be a holy burst weapon not a holy weapon. to me having a +5 holy burst weapon is huge but i'm only a casual DDO player and don't have too uber gear. just thought it was worth noting.

[Hvymetal]

not sure if anyone pointed this out yet but i'm pretty sure as of mod 6 pallys holy sword will be a holy burst weapon not a holy weapon. to me having a +5 holy burst weapon is huge but i'm only a casual DDO player and don't have too uber gear. just thought it was worth noting.Hmmm might be semi-usefull, I have a +1 Holy Burst of PG Bastard sword, might be nice to finnaly have a Holy Burst Khopesh, if I can find the room for dang unstackable components:(

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

not sure if anyone pointed this out yet but i'm pretty sure as of mod 6 pallys holy sword will be a holy burst weapon not a holy weapon. to me having a +5 holy burst weapon is huge but i'm only a casual DDO player and don't have too uber gear. just thought it was worth noting.

Yes, changing Holy Sword to make +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron Weapons is a help, but it costs a bit of Inventory Room and Plat for the components. It is certainly an improvement, and one plus for the "Pure vs. MC Paladin" Argument. Not enough for me to go Pure Pally though... but some will. To each his own.

[gamer111]

I have to agree I do like a pure pally myself. I have been playing online for a few months now and I find that when I just go for a min/max monster build, it just isn't the same for me. Granted I started playing PnP a loooong time ago (80's) so the reason I got this game is to visually see what I have been imagining all those nights of sitting at a table with friends. That was part of the experience, sitting there and having a good time and enjoying what you were doing, not in the hopes of getting a +200, dragon slaying vorpal sword, but to escape, relax and have a bit of fun. For me playing a Pure pally brings that back, and if the person enjoys their character "build" and plays them the way they are meant to be played, then they will contribute to any party out there. Here's to getting 1750 favor so I can make my Human pure pally, and smite evil in all its forms:) Good hunting everyone.