ftr/pally split question

[SteelHammer]

Ive always played caster but decided to roll a tank for a change..i currently have a dwarf 6fig/3pal and he is fun to play.

at lvl 9 he has 51ac with barkskin and ce

he has 150hp with tough feat but no tough ap yet (went for crits and sr and armor masterys atm)

originaly he was just to goof off with but have decided to take him all the way..my question is about specing him to 14.

11fig/3pal (in prep for cap raise)
10/4
7/7


im trying for max ac and saves with descent hp and good dps

i have looked at these builds in the forums but to be honest all the numbers blur to me and have a hard time figuring the plus and minuses of each.

I would appreciate it if anyone can do a a quick pro/con comparison to help[ me decide..dont need indepth..once i know what to pick i can go to that post and follow the guide. but help determing which path would be appreciated.

Much tks ahead of time

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Look at my Paladin Build Guide, Post #2 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1298683&postcount=2)

Specifically, either the 11F / 3P or the 7/7 Build. With the right gear, the 7/7 build has the highest possible AC of them all, and with Dwarf, you still get great DPS too.

Now, I know my breakdowns have a LOT of numbers and such, but that's for those who want all the details.

The other important piece to look at is the Level Breaks information (the second half of Post #6 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1299961&postcount=6)

Bascially the path choice comes down to:
12F / 2P - Most Fighter Bonus Feats, Highest Fighter Enhancements, Minimal Paladin Aura
11F / 3P - Highest Level Fighter Enhancements, Paladin +1 CHA, Disease&Fear Immunity, BoG 1, RoG 1, Extra LoH 1
7F / 7P - Highest possible AC. Mid-Level Fighter & Paladin Enhancements (STR 2, CHA 2, BoG 2, RoG 2, LoH 2, FAM 2, FTSM 2, etc)

[Karr]

Just curious, help my stupid brain kickstart here. Wouldn't a 8/6 Ftr/Pal build give you access to more feats?

[Impaqt]

You can actually take +1 Paladin CHR with only 2 Levels of Paladin.

I think 3 Levels of Paladin is the sweet spot for a Tank. You get all the significant( In this game) paladin abilities, and a +2 Aura with Enhancements. Going to 7 means you miss out on 2 FIghter Feats

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

You can actually take +1 Paladin CHR with only 2 Levels of Paladin.

I think 3 Levels of Paladin is the sweet spot for a Tank. You get all the significant( In this game) paladin abilities, and a +2 Aura with Enhancements. Going to 7 means you miss out on 2 FIghter Feats

1) Yes, I forgot, Paladin Cha is at Pal 2

2) You need Paladin 7 for Bulwark and Resistance of Good 2.
Yes, 8/6 would mean +1 Fighter Feat, but 1 feat vs. 1 AC & +1 to all Saves...

3) 3 Paladin is a great splash, but the "Max AC" is in a 7/7 Build.

10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate
6 - Dex (DAM 1 + FAM 2)
9 - +5 Mithral TS (FTSM2)
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - BoG 2
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
2 - Ring of Balance
1 - Dodge
---------------------
49 AC
---------------------
5 - Combat Expertise
1 - Shield of Faith +3 (Deflection)
1 - Haste
---------------------
56 AC
---------------------
3 - Ranger's Barkskin
2 - Recitation
4 - AC Boost 3 (Pal/Fght/HV)
1 - Paladin Aura
1 - Halfling Heroes Companion
---------------------
67 AC
---------------------
3 - Chattering Ring
---------------------
70 AC

[Taerdra]

10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate
6 - Dex (DAM 1 + FAM 2)
9 - +5 Mithral TS (FTSM2)
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - BoG 2
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
2 - Ring of Balance
1 - Dodge
---------------------
49 AC
---------------------
5 - Combat Expertise
1 - Shield of Faith +3 (Deflection)
1 - Haste
---------------------
56 AC
---------------------
3 - Ranger's Barkskin
2 - Recitation
4 - AC Boost 3 (Pal/Fght/HV)
1 - Paladin Aura
1 - Halfling Heroes Companion
---------------------
67 AC
---------------------
3 - Chattering Ring
---------------------
70 AC

This is not the highest AC option. A F11/P3 can get 2 AC out of the highlighted bonus above, and replace BoG2 with FAM3/FTSM3 (in the above example) and be +1 ahead of the build above. Yes, it's more expensive, but just the same...

The standing differences between F11/P3, F7/P7, and 11P/3F are non-existent and at best miniscule fully buffed unless you're really concerned about the difference between 71 AC and 69 AC. IMO I don't think AC should be the decisive factor as you pick which split.

[Karr]

I dont mean to be disrespectful, but your build takes into account things many players will never see, let alone depend on for building their alter ego to walk the streets of Stormreach. +5 Mithral FP?? Yeah, I wish. Instead be more realistic and plan on +5 FP and spending Fighter's Armor enhancements. Seriously, everyone I know is LOOKING for a set of +5 MFP. Spectacular Optics?? Ok maybe, not as hard to find as +5 MFP. Still pretty rare. Also, reaction to whether or not to use Combat Expertise is very mixed, especially on a Paladin. You already sacrifice on the Str. side in most Pally builds, relying instead on enhancements and feats to boost your to-hit bonus enough to make the difference. Losing some of that for CE is more of a blow to a Paladin than a true Fighter tank. Realistically, if you want to be able to hit what you are fighting, you wont be using CE that much. Can we see a version of this build that is more tuned to the normal person's playing and loot expectations? Just basic loot. +4 or +5 items. No tomes. No exotic stuff that sells for 20 million + on the AH if it ever even gets there.

Thanks.

[Twerpp]

No more than 3 pally levels. You have a nice +2 aura and divine saves. The more pally you take, the more offensive power you are giving up in exchange for defensive. At level 14 you will find yourself with GREAT AC and saves. +5 Mith FP yes you may have to work for it but not nearly as bad as it used to be, and +4 Mith FP is downright cheap now. +5 Mithral Towers, +5 prot cloaks arent too bad either.

Once you get geared and leveled up you may want to try power attack vs combat expertise, I dont think the -5 to hit will hurt you and in terms of fun, well, bigger crits = bigger fun.

[Karr]

I'm sorry. I just have never seen a set of +5 Mithral FP. Once on the AH I think. It didn't stay there long and it was way out of my price range. Maybe that was +4. Can't remember. Mithral SHIELDS are another story, and much easier to find. I have a couple of Heavy ones and a +4 Tower Shield. Still, my argument is that its fine to show someone the max they could build towards on their character, but for those of us unlucky enough or simply without time enough, show us what you'd do if you had to compromise like we do. Don't take uber loot as a given from the start.

Its like going to the race track and seeing those guys with the hundred thousand dollar muscle cars tubbed out with chrome everywhere and a professional paint job that run ungodly speeds down the track, and me with my cut and hacked on beater with ugly weld seams showing on the roll cage and a paint job via Krylon with some secondhand slicks that barely fit in the wheelwells and the ragged edges showing on the hole I cut in the hood cause the aftermarket air filter is too tall. Would I like to own the nice superfast dream car? SURE! I can't afford it so I make do. I still have fun, and thats the whole purpose. I'll never have the equipment for your dream build either. Doesn't mean I don't want to do the best I can with what I have.

[Mithran]

Toughness Enhancements.

You need level ten of one or the other in order to take the Toughness IV Enhancement.

As such, until the cap is increased to 16, my paladin/fighter is on the light side, despite my affection for the build.

[Karr]

Hmmm, hadn't considered Toughness. I'm at 7/4 Ftr/Pal right now and have Toughness III. I had planned on taking lvl 8 as a Fighter to get 2 feats, one of which I planned on being Greater Weapon Focus (slashing). Then I had planned to go back and pick up my last 2 levels as Paladin, finishing as 8/6 Ftr/Pal.

I have mostly +2 stat items right now (except for a +5 Cha helm). I'm looking for +4 Str, Wis and Con items, confident I can find those easy enough. I'd like Command armor for the boost to Cha based skills, I've seen it often enough at the AH that I can be patient and expect to see some eventually pass throgh my hands.

I'm certainly willing to be convinced on the 7/7 split, but I'd have to gain alot to give up GWF.

[Taerdra]

You need to start doing loot runs... Try to do PoP, Trial by Fire, and work your way through the Necropolis quests. I think one has an end reward that is indeed +5 Mithril FP (Jinx?). This will get you into the +5 Stat Items pretty quickly, and you will probably pull a +6 here and there. The hardest thing to come by in Dworkin's build is the +5 Mith Tower, not the FP.

If you're already at 7/4, 7/7 is probably the best split for you. The other option I would consider is 10/4. Your goal should be to get to 11F/7P at some point and then figure out what you want for the other 2 levels. 8/6 is not maximized split imo at lvl 14, though it doesn't inhibit you from the end goal.

The other wild card is what enhancements and feats become available with the level increase. F10 gives you quicker and more likely better access to higher enhancements. High-level Fighter enhancements are better than mid-level Paladin ones.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Hmmm, hadn't considered Toughness. I'm at 7/4 Ftr/Pal right now and have Toughness III. I had planned on taking lvl 8 as a Fighter to get 2 feats, one of which I planned on being Greater Weapon Focus (slashing). Then I had planned to go back and pick up my last 2 levels as Paladin, finishing as 8/6 Ftr/Pal.

I have mostly +2 stat items right now (except for a +5 Cha helm). I'm looking for +4 Str, Wis and Con items, confident I can find those easy enough. I'd like Command armor for the boost to Cha based skills, I've seen it often enough at the AH that I can be patient and expect to see some eventually pass throgh my hands.

I'm certainly willing to be convinced on the 7/7 split, but I'd have to gain alot to give up GWF.

Giving up Greater Weapon Focus? That is +1 To Hit.
Paladin 7 offers +2/+2 Divine Favor (+2 To Hit, +2 to Damage), which is better! :)


But seriously, you can easily shop for +4 Stat Items for DIRT CHEAP on the AH, or in the Marketplace Tent Brokers.

Yes, 7/7 does cut you off from Toughness 4 (which is -20 Hit Points), BUT you gain a lot more.

If you are 7/4 now, the decision you have is as follows:

Pal 6 - Enhancement: CHA +2, Divine Favor +2/+2
Pal 7 - Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 2
vs.
Fgt 8 - Bonus Feat, Avail Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Fgt 10 - Bonus Feat, Enhancement: STR +3, Enhancement: Tactics Level 4


Now, I know the 2 Bonus feats are tempting, but let's be realistic. The L8 Bonus Feat will go to Greater Weapon Focus... the Level 10 Feat will be... what?

GWF is offset by the additional +1/+1 to your DF (which adds +1 Damage that GWF does not). Yes, that +1 STR is nice, but not necessary, vs. +1 To Hit, +1 To Damage, +1 AC, +1 Saves.

---------------------

Now the long-term build-out on this is a difficult choice:

11 F / 9 P - This allows for +3/+3 DF on the Paladin side, and most of the high-level Fighter Enhancements, but I don't really like it.

11 P / 9 F - This allows 30-point resists, and the highest-level Paladin Enhancements.

10 F / 10 P - I think this is a bad choice... 11 is a break-point for Paladins

12 F / 8 P - This has good synergy with the bonus feats, GWS, and such

So in the long run, how a 7/7 split is leveled up really depends on the changes to the Enhancement system... but I would think that either 11P/9F or 12F/8P would be your best choices.

[Karr]

Thank you, that makes alot of sense. I think I will shoot for the 7/7 for now, after all the next cap raise isnt that far off. I can always get that extra fighter level then.

[Twerpp]

Doesnt divine favor last like one minute? I cant really see this as an argument since +1 constant GWF and if he wants he can still cast a +1 Divine Favor every minute if he has time and spell points.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Doesnt divine favor last like one minute? I cant really see this as an argument since +1 constant GWF and if he wants he can still cast a +1 Divine Favor every minute if he has time and spell points.

I'm not 100% sure what his DF Duration will be... on my Holy Avenger it is close to 2 minutes.

DF is +1/+1 up until Pal 6, when it goes to +2/+2.

Yes, GWF is a constant +1 to hit, but DF is +2 To Hit & +2 To Damage

But More Importantly, Pal 7 is needed for BoG 2 & RoG 2

[Karr]

Honestly I had never considered DF as a viable alternative because of the time limit. I use it on clickies on some of my other toons. If it goes up later on then I'd consider it more worthwhile. I wasn't aware it did.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Honestly I had never considered DF as a viable alternative because of the time limit. I use it on clickies on some of my other toons. If it goes up later on then I'd consider it more worthwhile. I wasn't aware it did.

I think it goes up to 1:30 or maybe 1:45... but in all honesty, that's all you need for any big fight... if it's not over in under 2 minutes, then you're probably dead anyways... plus DF, at 10 SP, casts VERY fast... it is very easy to finish a 4-attack chain, hit DF, and go right back to attacking... you lose maybe 1 attack in the casting time... so it really isn't that bad... and it is so fast, I VERY rarely ever get interrupted casting my DF

[Blazer]

Divine Favor - 1 minute always, no increase in time limit as you gain levels (like say Resist Energy, for example). 2 minute DF if you use extend.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, sorry... for some strange reason I thought it lasted longer... but on the other hand that is 3x longer than an Action Boost. And only limited the the number of SP you have, not 5x day

[Taerdra]

Honestly I had never considered DF as a viable alternative because of the time limit. I use it on clickies on some of my other toons. If it goes up later on then I'd consider it more worthwhile. I wasn't aware it did.

It's still a valuable alternative even if it is only 1 minute. Average Paladin spell points is probably in the 200-230 range (guess, my Pally has 370 I believe).

If you can cast Resists, then you will cast say 3 of them every ~7+ minutes which means you will cast 6 within the timeframe for your spell points. That means you will have used 90 pts IIRC leaving 110-140 for DF or you will have 11 to 14 minutes of +2/+2. That's more than enough to get you through to most shrines, so essentially you have +2/+2 "all the time".

[vyvy3369]

Don't forget that you only get resists if you take 8 paladin levels. 7/7 = 1st level spells only.

8p/6f would give you resists at the loss of AM2 and the third tier of fighter's tactics. 11p/3f has always been my preference - 30 resists, all the paladin enhancements you probably care about, a third level spell, and you keep fighter AM 1, str 1 & tactics 1.

[Dexxaan]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO]DDO Character Planner Home Page

Bruttus Chaosbane
Level 14 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(4 Fighter \ 10 Paladin)
Hit Points: 263 - Final: 344 (W/+6 CON Necklace)
Spell Points: 174 - Final: 304 (+4 WIS Helm and Magi Club for Pre-Quest Buffing)
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 19 - Final 30
Reflex: 12 - Final 25
Will: 10 - Final - 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement Current Gear
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 16 22 28 (+6 STR Gloves)
Dexterity 15 16 20 (Madstone Boots +4 DEX / 20% Striders)
Constitution 13 16 22 (+6 CON Necklace)
Intelligence 11 13 18 (+5 INT Helm used for rare ocassions like Wiz King panels, VON 3, etc..)
Wisdom 11 12 16 (+4 WIS Helm used + Magi Club for Pre-Quest Buffing)
Charisma 11 16 22 (+6 CHA Helm)

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1 (Need to eat one of these so Skill Pts become available from L2 on)
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 13 (Gambled on getting this so Combat Expertise was available)
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 14 (1750 Favor Tome - Needed to hit STR 28))
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 14 (Just recently got this from Reaver...YEAH BABY!!)

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 3 7
Bluff 1 3
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 1 11
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 3
Heal 1 1
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 1 3
Jump 4 20
Listen 1 1
Move Silently 3 -7
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot 1 14
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 3 14


FEATS:
Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat:(Selected) Extend Spell

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
(Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


ENHANCEMENTS:
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith I
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith II
Enhancement: Dwarven Giant Dodger I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Giant Dodger II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Standard Gear:
Head: +6 CHA Helm
Trinket: Kardin's Eye (+5 Resistance)
Neck: +6 Con Necklace
Torso: +5 Mithral Full Plate
Arms: Chaosgarde Bracers (+2 Dodge Bonus, +2 Saves from Chaotic's and something else....)
Gloves: +6 STR Gauntlets
Ring 1: Chattering Ring - Titan Raid (+10 Spot, -10 Hide +3 Dodge Bonus (*Dodge Bonuses stack))
Ring 2: Seal of the Earth - Demon Queen Raid (Acid Resistance 10, +3 Natural Armor Bonus and Stoneskin L12 3x Day)
Boots: Madstone Boots (+4 DEX, 20% Striders, Rage x1 Day : Natural Armor Bonus 4, +4 CON, +2 STR, Melee Speed +10% or 15% I believe)
Belt: Heavy Fortification Belt
Cloak: +5 Protection Cloak


OK, now regarding undispellable AC 60.

+5 Mithral Full Plate / +5 Mithral Tower Shield / Chaosgarde Bracers / Madstone Boots / Seal of the Earth Ring / Dodge feat / DEX 20 Bonus / Dwarven Armor Mastery I & Fighter Armor Mastery I / Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I / Paladin Bulwark of Good II / Combat Expertise and that should do it.

Basically AC is 55 w/out Combat Expertise, 60 with, and 61 when Madstone Boots Kick in due to Natural Armor bonus hitting another +1. (add +6 additional vs Giants from Dwarf + Enhancements)

Also when running around.... Haste(+1) + Recitation(+2) is 63/64! (69/70 vs Giants)

Look me up if you have any questions.

[Slayer918]

A: Divine favor breaks CE... if your good at micromanagement it works... if not...

B: Madstone rage will inhibit your ability to keep DF up...

so w/ a fighter based build you get +1 to hit from GWS, a possible +1 to hit and damage if fighter STR III gets you to the next even number, and a possible +1-2 to-hit and damage from madstone since It could be very difficult to keep that on a paly based build...

So your looking at +2/+1 special for the fighter with it going up to +3-4/+2-3 w/ madstone

So its pretty even... if not sometimes better than a +2 fivine favor...