The Potent Rogue: A Dwarven Melee Rogue

[Impaqt]

The Potent Rogue: L20 Projection 18Rogue/2Fighter

I dont think people who play Rogues will ever stop complaining about not being wanted in parties. Hopefully this build will help dispell the myth that rogues are not good melee builds. I've played a Rogue Hybrid build for quite some time and have no issue getting groups, but I primarily run in-Guild with her and have her tweaked out pretty good.

I wanted this build to be doable for the masses... I think 32Point is rather important though. Reducing this to 28Pt I feel would limit it too much. THis is really the first time I've been convinced that a 32pt build is significantly better than a 28pt. I would probobly just Drop CON to 12 for the dif.... THis guy has a LOT of hit points as it is. the 28 you lose isnt the end of the world.

Important Item you need for this build.
+6 STR Item: THis is a STR Based Build, Using +4 isnt the end of the world though.
+6 INT Item: These are unusually common.
+6 CON Item: +4 means 14 fewer hit points... again.....Not the end of the world.
+13 or better Rogue skill Items: THese are becoming increasingly more common, and with UMD you should have no trouble if its Race Restricted.
+1 Dex Tome: With a 12 Starting Dex, you'll need a +1 Tome to get to the required 13 for Dodge.
atlernate: You could take a Point from CHR,WIS,or CON to use on Dex and eat one of those tomes.

My personal feeling is that the Cabal Trap on Hard and Elite is nothing but a way to Gimp Rogues.... ANy Rogue that can hit that Trap on elite is severly gimped in some way. I dont consider it Important. You shouldnt either. THis guy can hit Everything else in the game.. WIth a Couple pices of Raid loot, He will hit everything else in the game without the chance of failure.



Level 14 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Rogue)
Hit Points: Potential of 300+ Standing
20 Heroic Durabiity
72 L12 Rogue
20 L2 Fighter
10 Dragonic Vitality
84 22 CON
16 Toughness
50 Dwarf Toughness
---
272 + False Life :eek:

Spell Points: 0

Base Attack: +26 +26 +31/+36
UNBUFFED... THis guy will easily be +30 with common buffs.

11 BAB
1 Slashing Focus
2 DWA
9 STR Bonus
3 Weapon
---
+26 First Swing Unbuffed

Damage With +3 Holy of Pure Good Dwarven Axe
1d12 +9STR +3Weapon +1d10Holy +1d6Good + 6d6+4 Sneak Attack
6.5 +9 +3+5.5+3.5+25 = 52.5 Average Damage Non-Crit

Saving Throws:
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 17
Will: 10

3/0/0 Fighter 2
4/8/4 Rogue 12
6/5/2 Attribute Modifiers
4/4/4 Resistence ITem
------
17/17/10
+5 Dwarven Spell Defense
+4 GH
+2 Recitation
28/28/21
Gets all saves over 20 against spells.... Add +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge for elite traps and Crucible Traproom/swim.. No Problem.

Armor Class:
10 BASE
10 +5 Mithral Breastplate
5 DEX Bonus
7 +5 Heavy Sheild
3 THeranal Spec Ops
2 Invader Ring
1 Dodge Feat
--
38 Standing Unbuffed with average Items
2 +5 ProtectionItem
1 Barksin Potion
--
41 Over 40 is Easy

More Buffs the Better... over 50 WIth Improved Uncanny Dodge and dont forget about +4 WHile TUmbling.
add Chaos Guards for an additional +2 Dodge, Haste, A Friendly Ranger and Paly... Seeing a 60AC in your character screen can happen.




Abilities
(32 Point Build)

{28}Strength 16 +3 Levels +1 Fighter +6 Item +2 Favor Tome
{20}Dexterity 12 +1 Tome +2 Rogue Dex +5 Item
{22}Constitution 16 +6 Item
{20}Intelligence 14 +6 Item
{14+Wisdom 10 +4 Item
{14}Charisma 10 +4 Item

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2



Skills:
{26}Balance: 17 Ranks +5 Dex +4 Dwarf
No need for an Item with a 26 Balance

{30+}Bluff: 17 Ranks +2 CHR +ITEM
{30+}Diplomacy: 17Ranks +2CHR + ITEM
Maxing Bluff and Diplomacy give you 2 Options to get your potent Sneak Attack in.

{53}Disable Device: 17 Ranks +5 INT + 13Item +7 Tools +2ENH +2 WotM +4 GH +3 Boost
Strong enough for most traps. add +2Luck and +3 Reaver Bracers for and unfalable 58

{26}Jump: 17 Ranks +9 STR

{46+}Open Lock: 17Ranks +5Dex +7 Tools +13 Item +2ENH +2WotM +more..
You wont need it Far exceeds HWM

{41+}Search 17Ranks +2 Dwarf +2ENH 13 Item +5 INT +3 Boost
Exceeds HWM

{36+}Spot: 17 Ranks +2 ENH +13 Item +2WIS +2 Heroism Pot.
Exceeds HWM. More easily Obtainable

{9}Tumble: 4 Ranks +5 Dex
Enough to TUmble

{28+}Use Magic Device:
17Ranks +2CHR +3SF +3Cartouse 3 Boost =28 +4 GH =32
UMD any Item in the game, Boost to Raise Dead.


Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[nbhs275]

few things.

First, dodge. Drop it, the 1 ac isnt going to be as useful as the many other things you could take. Because currently, the builds AC is pretty dated, and really isnt going to hold up in high end content. Also, spring attack is kinda just a feat sink, because what you get out of it doesnt really work. Many times when you chase mobs you simply dont get a roll against them, and when their stationary, there isnt much point to be jumping around like a jackalope on meth.

second, you have no stance. You should consider either PA, for some extra damage against targets, or CE, for less damage to you.

Also, with CE, you can take improved feint which would let you get more sneak attacks in, which can be alot of damage on a build like this.


Right now, you have SA figured into your average damage, which isnt true at all. It only will kick in when a mob is: Aggroed by another character, stunned or held, decepted, feinted, bluffed, blinded, or flanked.

Unless you build to work in multiple abilities to do these things, SA wont be as big of an accet.

[Impaqt]

While I apreciate your input, I feel your concern is misplaced.

Dodge... Prereq for Mobility, Prereq for Spring Attack....

Spring attack while it would be nice if we werent suffereing from the bug right now that you describe, is good for WAY more than just chassing mobs around.

A good rogue will manage aggro wisely, maintainhis sneak attack. Dont focus your attacks on one Mob. Switch up often and keep moving.. Keep Tumbling.. Keep attacking. I'm quite convinced very few people have actually used this teqnique.. and even few have mastered it. Its pretty sweet.

As for CE and PA... also Misplaced.... PA is for doing even more damage. THis guuy already does enough damage to pull aggro. There is no reason to do more and lose out on sneak attacks.

Trade 5 AC for 5 to hit is also snot wise.. as you said, the AC listed is well below uber.. Its adequest.. +5 and its still adequet.. while =5 to hit.. thats just giving away more DPS.....

With High Bluff, Diplomacy, and smart play, getting your sneak attack damage isnt that hard to maintain. feignt is one on one....Slow Cool down.... Last resort.... Dipo and Bluff are Area Effect.. Much more useful IMO.

[SableShadow]

few things.

First, dodge. Drop it, the 1 ac isnt going to be as useful as the many other things you could take. Because currently, the builds AC is pretty dated, and really isnt going to hold up in high end content. Also, spring attack is kinda just a feat sink, because what you get out of it doesnt really work. Many times when you chase mobs you simply dont get a roll against them, and when their stationary, there isnt much point to be jumping around like a jackalope on meth.

second, you have no stance. You should consider either PA, for some extra damage against targets, or CE, for less damage to you.

Also, with CE, you can take improved feint which would let you get more sneak attacks in, which can be alot of damage on a build like this.


Right now, you have SA figured into your average damage, which isnt true at all. It only will kick in when a mob is: Aggroed by another character, stunned or held, decepted, feinted, bluffed, blinded, or flanked.

Unless you build to work in multiple abilities to do these things, SA wont be as big of an accet.

While I'm not personally a big fan of spring attack, that's a playstyle/build space decision...if I had a couple extra feats, I'd consider it (combat tends to get very fluid, even under the best of conditions). If it ever became a direct buy type feat, I'd find a way to shoehorn it into my current build. Xanna was once a spring attack build, among other feat combos I tried on her.

Sneak attack, though, is a rogue's damage core; you just need a little agro management. Given that, you get it the majority of the time...it's how you really *do* damage with the class.

Improved Feint *is* very nice if you've got the feats to burn for it (basically burning 2 feats for 1), since it's an AoE and on a separate timer from Bluff/Diplo. I find, though, that I wand and scroll whip too often to make use of CE (cast/wand/scroll/clickie...and CE turns off), even if I had the feats to spare....and I'd never end up running CE except for run throughs, because of the negative to attack bonus and inability to both cast and keep CE running. Hence the 2 feats-for-1 comment.

And...flanking? I see this in the 'official guide' and a few posts, but other than the +2 attack bonus, it does nothing. Try it out: pop down to waterworks with a web wand and web a few kobolds. Punch them with the wand. Same damage either front or behind; if you check your combat log, you get +2 to hit from behind, but no sneak attack.

[Impaqt]

Improved Feint is AOE? That does indeed make it significantly orea tractive... The feat description sayd "An Enemy" I always thought it was like Trip or Stun.

Still dontknow if its worth taking CE when Diplo and Bluff are there as skills.

[Snike]

I really want spring attack on my 12/2 rogue also, but decided in the end it was not going to work for me until the cap was raised. This is a good build for it. If spring attack on a rogue build is what you are going for this isn't bad at all.

A TWF, DEX base build that I was tring to fit it in was definately a no-go until cap is 20, for what I wanted... I ended up going weapon-effect based melee and getting the +4 to-hit from 1 feat instead of 3 with precision.

[SableShadow]

Improved Feint is AOE? That does indeed make it significantly orea tractive... The feat description sayd "An Enemy" I always thought it was like Trip or Stun.

Still dontknow if its worth taking CE when Diplo and Bluff are there as skills.

Yep, agreed. Xanna was my test bed for a variety of feats; my concept for CE was to use it when I needed to fall into a casting role with UMD. Finding out casting *anything* turned it off was an eye opener. Brenna uses Diplo/Bluff (one or the other; they're on the same cooldown timer) and gets by with Deception when she gets too high into Overdamage, even with SB IV+Treason

And yep, the descriptions of the various abilities in the game could use a little something. :D

[nbhs275]

its true casting turns off CE, but thats not such a problem when you buff pre-battle, and dont have to fall into that healing stance because your not getting hit much. IF is a great feat if you get it, and is also potent when used with AOE attacks, like cleave of whirlwind. I once played with one guy who used a greatsword with everbright at low levels with PA running, would IF, cleave, use the greatswords bursting effect, and then greatcleave.

Basic effect was every mob around him taking 2d6+10 str +10 PA +2 weapon +3d6+8SA damage twice. Was very fun too watch, though it was kinda wierd on feats

Human fighter 2/rogue 6

1st PA, CE
2nd IF
3rd Cleave
5th Greatcleave
6th ?>?>?

I don't know how well that tactic stands up at 14 though :/

[Borror0]

And yep, the descriptions of the various abilities in the game could use a little something. :D

Writing something about this from time to time. If you can think of any skill/feat that could use some of it PM! :D

[Seneca_Windforge]

I went with a similar idea, but I went RogX/Rgr2 instead of RogX/Ftr2. It didn't impact my skill points as much and gave me Favored Enemy (Undead), no UMD wand use (for some wands), Two-Weapon Fighting, and Bow Strength.

I've taken the character up to level 9 so far and it works great.

[Impaqt]

Yeah, I've used 2 levels of Ranger and Paladin in my builds before. Its a good combination.

I just needed the 2 extra feats in this build so I went with Fighter. I'll carry a bunch of cure serious pots on this build for quick top offis mid-Fight.... Its a pain to switch to Wands in the heat of battle anyway.

[ErgonomicCat]

And...flanking? I see this in the 'official guide' and a few posts, but other than the +2 attack bonus, it does nothing. Try it out: pop down to waterworks with a web wand and web a few kobolds. Punch them with the wand. Same damage either front or behind; if you check your combat log, you get +2 to hit from behind, but no sneak attack.

Flanking the DnD/DDO meaning of the term, not the traditional meaning.

In 2e, "flanking" meant attacking from the sides, and gave a bonus. You had to be attacking from the back to get backstab, and it was, iirc, only when hidden first?

In 3.X, "flanking" means attacking someone when you are directly opposite an ally, with the opponent in between. Technically, you have to be able to draw a line from you to them that passes through the mid point of the foe. Flanking gets you a +2 to hit, and allows sneak damage.

In DDO, from my understanding "Flanking" means a foe that is being attacked by someone else as well. I believe they also have to be focusing attention on that other foe? But the direct flanking isn't required (which is good - it would be insane to try to line that up in real time).

But in any case, it's not a measure of direction, it's a measure of distractedness. DnD has no facing, because it's assumed that combatants face all directions in their square as they wheel around to defend themselves. When two people flank, the distraction is abstracted in to a +2 to hit, and the ability to sneak, because the foe is assumed to spend half their time fighting each of you, basically.

[Borror0]

In DDO, from my understanding "Flanking" means a foe that is being attacked by someone else as well. I believe they also have to be focusing attention on that other foe? But the direct flanking isn't required (which is good - it would be insane to try to line that up in real time).

Flanking means that the mob's got aggro on someone than you. You then get Flanking bonus. Sneak attacks --> Flanking. They come at the same time.

[Xyfiel]

I will keep my Rogues as is. Overall good build though. When are you going to become a arcane lover so we can discuss arcane hybrid builds?

"Trade 5 AC for 5 to hit is also snot wise"

What exactly is snot wise?
/poke

[Impaqt]

I dunno..... I've played with several Sorc/Paly and Wiz/rogue concepts..... I'm really looking forward to a Monk/Cleric though

[XFracture]

I love looking at builds like these. Mostly for the item placements.

There are 10 available slots Not including armor, weapons or ammo. If you break down this build you have:

5 slots occupied by stat items.
1 slot occupied by Chaosguards.
1 slot occupied by Threnal Optics.
1 slot occupied by Invaders Ring.
1 slot occupied by +5 Pro Item.
1 slot occupied by +4 res item.
1 slot occupied by Bluff Item.
1 slot occupied by Diplo Item.
1 slot occupied by Spot Item.
1 slot occupied by UMD.


I'm clearly not considering Int/Pick/DD/Search items because no rogue keeps those equipped outside of disabling/picking. And of course we're assuming that this particular build isn't gonna be running with a Heavy Fort/Poison/Disease/GRFalse item(s). And it's a good thing that Chattering wasn't listed up there as well.

So unless you're a hotswapping blackbelt OR have the good fortune to have these items in a manner that they do not replicate the same slot (i.e. cha/wis/int/resistance) don't plan on seeing these numbers. Not at the same time and/or situation anyway.

Best case scenario I can see would be:

Back: Resistance
Helmet: Charisma
Neck: Wisdom
Eyes: Optics
Trinket: UMD
Wrist: Guards
Hands: Dexterity
Ring1: Invaders
Ring2: Constitution
Belt: Strength
Boots: Bluff

Allowing you to hotswap your Optics for a Spot item when you're scouting. Your Guards or Neck for a Diplo item in a pinch. But I can't really figure how to fit a Pro item in there. So I mean it's doable, but you're giving up in some arena's namely a fort item and hoping for the best when it comes to your gear lineup. Definitely not a newbie build by any stretch.

[Shade]

Flanking means that the mob's got aggro on someone than you. You then get Flanking bonus. Sneak attacks --> Flanking. They come at the same time.

Nah it doesn't.

Flanking means +1 or +2 to hit. +1 from the side, and +2 from the back. Having agro or not doesn't effect this, you can flank mobs while there agro is on your character.

Sneak attack is attained when a monster is either a) unaware of your presence, or b) targetting someone else.
So 2 different things that may or may not happen the same time. Ideally if someone else has agro, yes get behind the mob to flank, even tho it won't effect sneak attack status your to hit will go up so its good to do.

Or if you have agro - you can first trip, use a web wand, whatever to incapitate the mob so he can't turn to face you, then get behind him for the +2.. But again this will not result in sneak attack damage.

Due to rogues lower to-hit, and sneak attacks.. Moving around allot in combat is very important so you can get some minor benefit from spring attack. Still tho, the -4 to hit penalty can be overcome, even on a lower to hit char like a rogue. Greater hero, wep focus, +1 to hit armor/bracers, bards, tomes, etc.. Get enough and you eventually have enough to hit to handle anything, regardless of having spring attack or not.

Actually I like precision over spring attack on rogues, +4 to hit all the time moving or not.. And yea cuts down your damage, but often thats a good thing if your moving around trying to get more sneak attack dmg in. Then really as a rogue your main target dps is poor anyways, so wounding or other special effects unhindered by precision are often a better choice.

[XFracture]

I love precision. Especially for those god awful undead missions when you're Sneak Attk means jack****. Those are the missions you wanna be hitting each and every time anyway because of your lack of dps.

[Impaqt]

Most People Understand that you need to swap Items out Situationally.

I dont have ChaosGuards listed, but they would be a benefit to the build of course.

You would never wear a +5 Protection item and the Spec ops at the same time....

[SableShadow]

Then really as a rogue your main target dps is poor anyways.

You had me until here; my data does not match yours. :) Keep in mind, this is not critcism on your build; you've got a stable, effective combat strategy that works with your feat and weapon selections. Probably an indication that the devs got Precision and Spring Attack right is how much time we spend arguing about their relative merits. ;)

Everything else I agreed with.

[Aesop]

Ya know that Cabal trap... my rogue can get that on Elite and I don't think she is gimped in the least.

She has a lower strength than the OPs (only 22 right now with no tome)

Higher Int (26 with a +2 tome)

Dex of 22 (no tome and only a +4 item)

Con is 16 (HP in standing mode is 231)

Saves are 17 18 11 without Resist items

my BAB is 12 with my +2 Flaming Burst Short Sword of Pure Good I'm at a base of 24

my one downside right now is AC ... but that's due to never getting into a Raid to save my life right now her standing AC is 38 with buffs I can go significantly higher but I'm not really built around AC ... hence the Fearsome Chainshirt.On the occassion that I need to tank I can but I perfer not doing so because the character is a Rogue.

The Basics of it are 7rog/4ftr/3pal Drow

I'm debating now with what I'm going to do with her for levels 15+ I'm thinking straight Rogue ...or at least 3 more rogue and then we'll see from there. I currently have +13 Spot DD OL and Search gear. Always on the lookout for +15s :)I carry Scrolls of Find Trap though I haven't used them yet and Greater Heroism (those I use) as well as Heal Reconstruct Raise Dead and Restoration... My UMD is pretty decent but I would love to get my hands on the 7 Fingered Gloves. So yeah that's my girl in a nutshell... I keep a number of weapons on her for every situation... My favorite is probably my Smiting Shortsword... makes golems go squish. oh I have Weapon Focus, SPec and Improved Crit in Piercing.


so other than a few item optimizations I think she does the job... any job I need her to as well as any rogue could hope to.

Aesop

[Impaqt]

Ya know that Cabal trap... my rogue can get that on Elite and I don't think she is gimped in the least.
Aesop

Shenanigans!!!!!

Please post your build.... Thre are many peole who wouldlove tosee how you get that build up to 60+ Search and 70+ Disable Device... Especially without Raid Loot.

[nbhs275]

I love looking at builds like these. Mostly for the item placements.

There are 10 available slots Not including armor, weapons or ammo. If you break down this build you have:

5 slots occupied by stat items.
1 slot occupied by Chaosguards.
1 slot occupied by Threnal Optics.
1 slot occupied by Invaders Ring.
1 slot occupied by +5 Pro Item.
1 slot occupied by +4 res item.
1 slot occupied by Bluff Item.
1 slot occupied by Diplo Item.
1 slot occupied by Spot Item.
1 slot occupied by UMD.
Well, it takes some compromise, and good item placement, currently i have this set up


Helm: Mino's (Toughness, Heavy fort)
Goggles: Int, Spot, Search, Disable
Boots: Bluff, strinders
Trinket: Head of good fortune
Neck: + 3 UMD, +1 int
Belt: +3 con, fighter armor mastery 2
Gloves: +6 Str Gloves
Bracers: Choasguard
Ring 1: Chattering ring
Ring 2: +5 wis
Cloak: +6 cha
Shield: +5 heavy shield, +4 resistance, +4 protection
Armor:Breasteplate of vol(+5 mith BP, +4 dex)

So i got everything i need, by just getting easy statics. Also, threnal optics and Invaders ring are ****. Im not sure why you think anyone would use them :/



Best case scenario I can see would be:

Back: Resistance
Helmet: Charisma
Neck: Wisdom
Eyes: Optics
Trinket: UMD
Wrist: Guards
Hands: Dexterity
Ring1: Invaders
Ring2: Constitution
Belt: Strength
Boots: Bluff

Allowing you to hotswap your Optics for a Spot item when you're scouting. Your Guards or Neck for a Diplo item in a pinch. But I can't really figure how to fit a Pro item in there. So I mean it's doable, but you're giving up in some arena's namely a fort item and hoping for the best when it comes to your gear lineup. Definitely not a newbie build by any stretch.

But yea, not a newbie build.

[SableShadow]

Shenanigans!!!!!

Please post your build.... Thre are many peole who wouldlove tosee how you get that build up to 60+ Search and 70+ Disable Device... Especially without Raid Loot.

Disagree. High int Drow rogues are, it seems, the build made for that trap:

Disable Device
17 ranks
13 int
13 item
2 DD Enhance II
2 Way of the Mechanic
4 Greater Heroism
1 Luck (Prayer scrolls)
5 Boost
7 tools
+3 House D skill potion
+2 House D int potion
----------------------
68 DD...(possible to blow it, but small chance...toss in a bardsong and you get 70)

Search
17 ranks
13 int
13 item
6 Elf enhancements IV + Rogue enhancements II
2 Way of the Mechanic
2 Elf/Drow
4 Greater Heroism
1 Luck (Prayer Scroll)
+3 House D skill potion
---------------------------
60 Search


I've advised folks before to heavily multiclass with caution, but Aesop knows what he's doing: high int with lower combat stats, so deep in martial classes for BAB (seen the same thing using Precision to get the BAB up). Enough strength to compensate for lower sneak damage (only seven rogue levels) + single weapon + damage on weapons to keep the BAB high, compensate for the lost sneak dice, and keep the Damage Curve relatively flat. Pali w/ charisma to balance out the lower Reflex saves. Sounds like it fits his play style; the math works out. I wouldn't run one (doesn't fit my playstyle), but there you go: one of many, many ways to build an effective rogue.

[Aesop]

Shenanigans!!!!!

Please post your build.... Thre are many peole who wouldlove tosee how you get that build up to 60+ Search and 70+ Disable Device... Especially without Raid Loot.

ok

This is without items of course I switch out Menos ... whatever that hat is called for my +6 Int Hat when Searching and Disabling. I'm pretty sure this is accurate to the character... but when I loaded the new planner it erased all my old builds


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Lionne
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Female
(4 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 7 Rogue)
Hit Points: 163
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 14
Will: 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 14 15 16
Dexterity 16 16 18
Constitution 10 10 10
Intelligence 16 20 20
Wisdom 10 10 10
Charisma 14 14 15

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 7 19 19
Bluff 2 2 2
Concentration 0 0 0
Diplomacy 6 6 6
Disable Device 7 22 31
Haggle 6 18 18
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 5 6 6
Intimidate 2 2 2
Jump 6 9 9
Listen 0 0 2
Move Silently 5 6 6
Open Lock 7 21 27
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 3 5 7
Search 7 22 34
Spot 4 17 24
Swim 2 3 3
Tumble 7 8 8
Use Magic Device 6 19 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Drow)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency

Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Search
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)

Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+5)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Disable Device

Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+6)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Perception III
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore II
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[Impaqt]

Well..... I dotn see h ow yoru hitting 60 and 70 on Search and DD there..... +13Item +3 Boost +4Gh+1Luck +3 more INT= 24 +34 = 58 +3 Skill Potion? I guess...

24+31 +7 Tools =62 Thats almsot a 50% chance of Critical Failure on that trap.

Yes, I think you sacrificed WAY to much to get that close to that trap.

[Aesop]

Well..... I dotn see h ow yoru hitting 60 and 70 on Search and DD there..... +13Item +3 Boost +4Gh+1Luck +3 more INT= 24 +34 = 58 +3 Skill Potion? I guess...

24+31 +7 Tools =62 Thats almsot a 50% chance of Critical Failure on that trap.

Yes, I think you sacrificed WAY to much to get that close to that trap.

Like what?

Also the Int goes to 26 I also use scrolls and what not to up the potential where I can. That trap is tough and most people don't even want me to try it but the times I've done it I've gotten it. heh It did require some potion drinking to make my life a little easier.

Aesop

come to think of it the times I have done it we did have a Bard and I grabbed what I could get from them... but really I wasn't aiming for that trap in particvular I just wanted to not have to worry about any traps in general



Aesop

[Impaqt]

4 feats and 20% of your Action points dedicated to one trap?

I find that significant.

[Aesop]

4 feats and 20% of your Action points dedicated to one trap?

I find that significant.

Actually those were in place before GH existed. I wasn't sure what they were going to do with traps at the time so I just aimed high... Aiming much higher would have started to break things.

However the overall effectiveness ofthe character has not been compromised by those dedications. With them in place I can focus on other aspects of the character to flesh out the combat and other aspects in the later levels. I just wish they'd implement PrCs.

Aesop


wait I only count 3 feats that could be considered Trap related . SF: DD SF:Search and Nimble Fingers and since I took back 3 feats with the 4 fighter levels I don't really consider them lost

[nbhs275]

Actually those were in place before GH existed. I wasn't sure what they were going to do with traps at the time so I just aimed high... Aiming much higher would have started to break things.

However the overall effectiveness ofthe character has not been compromised by those dedications. With them in place I can focus on other aspects of the character to flesh out the combat and other aspects in the later levels. I just wish they'd implement PrCs.

Aesop


wait I only count 3 feats that could be considered Trap related . SF: DD SF:Search and Nimble Fingers and since I took back 3 feats with the 4 fighter levels I don't really consider them lost

Max Search is(though not smart to do so)

17 ranks
15 item
10 intel
4 Dwarf search
4 Rogue search
2 Dragon mark
5 Rogue boost
2 Dwarf racial
2 HoGF
4 GH
2 Way of the Mechanic
2 Inspire Competence
3 Skill potion
3 Skill focus Search
_________________
75



Max DD is

17 ranks
15 item
12 intel
4 rogue
3 skill focus
7 tools
2 nimble fingers
2 HoGF
5 boost
2 Way of the Mechanic
3 Skill potion
4 GH
2 Inspire competence
__________________
76 total

I got a question though, how are you getting a 36 intel on a drow rogue?

20 base
+6 item
+3 tome
+3 level
_______
32
+2 potion
34

If your grabbing six wizard levels for the +2 intel, your losing points from lower boost and enhancments.

Anyone building for this one trap is a gimp extroidaniar. Your would suck horrible in all but that one little room, because every other rogue that can do any traps can do everything else, and alot of other things too.

[Aesop]

I got a question though, how are you getting a 36 intel on a drow rogue?

.



I'm only at 26 Int and other than Tomes I'm not planning any higher than that.

For that Trap I pull out most of the dirty tricks. I will probably pick up the Skill boost Enhancment the rest of the way and maybe another Search Enhancment (maybe) but really I 'm pretty set with where I'm at. I would love to get a ittle raid loot for this character though. LIke the Head and the 7 fingered gloves ... can't remember the rest of what I'd want.

Aesop

[ghale]

Nah it doesn't.

Flanking means +1 or +2 to hit. +1 from the side, and +2 from the back. Having agro or not doesn't effect this, you can flank mobs while there agro is on your character.

Sneak attack is attained when a monster is either a) unaware of your presence, or b) targetting someone else.
So 2 different things that may or may not happen the same time. Ideally if someone else has agro, yes get behind the mob to flank, even tho it won't effect sneak attack status your to hit will go up so its good to do.

Or if you have agro - you can first trip, use a web wand, whatever to incapitate the mob so he can't turn to face you, then get behind him for the +2.. But again this will not result in sneak attack damage.

Due to rogues lower to-hit, and sneak attacks.. Moving around allot in combat is very important so you can get some minor benefit from spring attack. Still tho, the -4 to hit penalty can be overcome, even on a lower to hit char like a rogue. Greater hero, wep focus, +1 to hit armor/bracers, bards, tomes, etc.. Get enough and you eventually have enough to hit to handle anything, regardless of having spring attack or not.

Actually I like precision over spring attack on rogues, +4 to hit all the time moving or not.. And yea cuts down your damage, but often thats a good thing if your moving around trying to get more sneak attack dmg in. Then really as a rogue your main target dps is poor anyways, so wounding or other special effects unhindered by precision are often a better choice.

Spring attack is a waste on a rogue if you're getting sneak attack bonus. Depending on your build you will have the highest to hit of any class even barbarians (again only if getting backstab bonus).

+10 - 14 rogue lvls
+5 weapon
+4 gh
+1 or 2 (drow rapier/ss)
+1-5 backstab mod item
+1-3 sneak attack accuracy enhancement
+10-12 dex
(+2 flanking bonus)
(+1 haste)
(-2 twf)
-----------
+42 to hit on first swing with highest mod presented (other bonuses can make it higher)

And as far as poor main target damage that only applies to mobs that can not be sneak attacked or critted unless you are a str build. On mobs you can sneak attack high level rogues can do some of the highest damage available.

Generic +5 rapier

1d6+5 weapon
+2-8 backstab dmg mod item
+2-8 backstab dmg mod enhancement
+1-5 str bonus (will go with a lower str of 20 since is a dex build)
7d6 dmg (13 rogue lvls)
(+5 pa - if you go with this...easily affordable with a high to hit)
(with twf can offhand a seeker +10 item for +20dmg on crits 15-20 with IC)
------
With rogues there is a wider variety in range as it is not a consistent bonus like a barbarian but on non-critical hits their damage will be equal if not higher (when they still maintain sneak attack damage).

[Impaqt]

Spring attack is a waste on a rogue if you're getting sneak attack bonus. Depending on your build you will have the highest to hit of any class even barbarians (again only if getting backstab bonus).

+10 - 14 rogue lvls
+5 weapon
+4 gh
+1 or 2 (drow rapier/ss)
+1-5 backstab mod item
+1-3 sneak attack accuracy enhancement
+10-12 dex
(+2 flanking bonus)
(+1 haste)
(-2 twf)
-----------
+42 to hit on first swing with highest mod presented (other bonuses can make it higher)

Wow, thats a Lot of Variables you have factored in there to the max..... You see a lot of +5 Weapons with +5 Backstab on them? AND a useful prefix? I havent.... As soon as I get a +5 Holy Burst of Backstab(+5) Rapier I'll think about switching out Spring Attack.
I also feel 10 ACtion Points can go twoards much better things rather than Sneak attack accuracy ona rogue.

[ghale]

Wow, thats a Lot of Variables you have factored in there to the max..... You see a lot of +5 Weapons with +5 Backstab on them? AND a useful prefix? I havent.... As soon as I get a +5 Holy Burst of Backstab(+5) Rapier I'll think about switching out Spring Attack.
I also feel 10 ACtion Points can go twoards much better things rather than Sneak attack accuracy ona rogue.

There are a lot of +1 weapons with +5/8 backstab mod that you can put in your offhand. Treason is +3/5 and a pretty common drop from Reaver Raid, at least it was before raid loot change. There is also the Bravo sword from the titan which is a +3 shortsword with +5/8 backstab mod.

I wouldn't spend 10 action points on accuracy either was just saying it for totals. Spending only 2 points for SA 1 would still leave +40 to hit (36 while running around).

Spring Attack requires 3 feats that could go to a variety of other things. If people want to use spring attack more power to them. I was just pointing out the fallacy that rogues will have a low to hit modifier.

[SableShadow]

I was just pointing out the fallacy that rogues will have a low to hit modifier.

Wanna run that by me again how a rogue's 3/4 BAB is a fallacy? Toss in fighter feats, barbarian rage, and ranger favored enemy.

Rogue not able to do *damage* is a fallacy, sure; the biggest weakness of the class is the BAB in comparison to a figher/barb/ranger, though, not the saves/hit dice/damage.

On normal quests, this isn't a factor: everyone gets the rising attack bonus with multiple swings and the monster base AC isn't too bad at all. When I get into elite, I *do* feel the difference, and hence recommend keeping attack bonus the first priority over whatever else is on the weapon. It's the same logic as using twf: the breakpoint at which you start getting lower dps with twf over single wf is around 16? 17? required on the die roll.

[Borror0]

Wanna run that by me again how a rogue's 3/4 BAB is a fallacy?

Fixed. They get 15 at level 20. Hence 3/4. :)

[SableShadow]

Actually those were in place before GH existed. I wasn't sure what they were going to do with traps at the time so I just aimed high... Aiming much higher would have started to break things.

However the overall effectiveness ofthe character has not been compromised by those dedications. With them in place I can focus on other aspects of the character to flesh out the combat and other aspects in the later levels. I just wish they'd implement PrCs.

Aesop


wait I only count 3 feats that could be considered Trap related . SF: DD SF:Search and Nimble Fingers and since I took back 3 feats with the 4 fighter levels I don't really consider them lost


The biggest question is, can you pull agro off the party's Barbarian if you try?

If so, you're golden, since rogue sneak damage is very much related to the damage the rest of the party is doing; if you can pull agro off the tank at will, you've got the basic damage going and just have to work the agro management piece.

[SableShadow]

Fixed. They get 15 at level 20. Hence 3/4. :)

Thanks! :D

[ghale]

[QUOTE=SableShadow;1403547]Wanna run that by me again how a rogue's 3/4 BAB is a fallacy? Toss in fighter feats, barbarian rage, and ranger favored enemy.

[QUOTE]

Wow, do you even read what it is that you are trying to argue against? I never said they weren't a 3/4th class. If you read my previous post you see that point was established. I was pointing out that regardless of being a 3/4 class, rogues are still capable of acheiving one of the highest to hit possible (granted anyone twf can take advantage of some of the benefits).

The reasoning behind my post, as I reference in the post I had quoted, was to point out that spring attack is hardly necessary.

[SableShadow]

Wanna run that by me again how a rogue's 3/4 BAB is a fallacy? Toss in fighter feats, barbarian rage, and ranger favored enemy.


Wow, do you even read what it is that you are trying to argue against? I never said they weren't a 3/4th class. If you read my previous post you see that point was established. I was pointing out that regardless of being a 3/4 class, rogues are still capable of acheiving one of the highest to hit possible (granted anyone twf can take advantage of some of the benefits).

The reasoning behind my post, as I reference in the post I had quoted, was to point out that spring attack is hardly necessary.

Ah, then I apologize. I've used spring attack also, and found it too expensive for the feat cost, just as I found that Precision took away more dps that it gave.

Both may be useful on some playing styles however, so I'm willing to reserve judgement on them if someone else wants to use them and can get them into their build. Heck, I reserve judgement on using SF:Traps feats as long as the rest of the build can pass The Barbarian Test.



(granted anyone twf can take advantage of some of the benefits)..

This is where your argument falls apart, though; I think you want to argue that rogue's can get *enough* attack bonus to keep their damage high enough without Precision or Sneak attack. *That* argument I buy totally.

[Aesop]

The biggest question is, can you pull agro off the party's Barbarian if you try?

If so, you're golden, since rogue sneak damage is very much related to the damage the rest of the party is doing; if you can pull agro off the tank at will, you've got the basic damage going and just have to work the agro management piece.

I have done it but usually I try not to. If I'm pulling too much I switch out weapons to something a little less damaging (Cursespewer, Weakening Enfeebler, Strength Sapper... no wait I gave that to my twf) My major Weakness at this point with the character is my low Diplo and bluff scores. Over then next few levels that will change but for now I have to rely on switching out weapons or targets. The Faith Enhancment and my Drow Weapon Enhancments along with Weapon Focus and Spec (and improved Crit)make up for a bit of the to-hit and damage lows of only having a 22 Strength. I have a Paralyzer as well ...but its a dagger .... anyone wanna trade me a Short Sword Paralyzer for it :D


Aesop

[SableShadow]

I have done it but usually I try not to. If I'm pulling too much I switch out weapons to something a little less damaging (Cursespewer, Weakening Enfeebler, Strength Sapper... no wait I gave that to my twf) My major Weakness at this point with the character is my low Diplo and bluff scores. Over then next few levels that will change but for now I have to rely on switching out weapons or targets. The Faith Enhancment and my Drow Weapon Enhancments along with Weapon Focus and Spec (and improved Crit)make up for a bit of the to-hit and damage lows of only having a 22 Strength. I have a Paralyzer as well ...but its a dagger .... anyone wanna trade me a Short Sword Paralyzer for it :D


Aesop

Totally with you...I just meant as a damage comparison, just occasionally, as a test. I make sure I pull agro now and again, just to make sure my damage is where it should be...but yah, most of the time I'm actively avoiding it. :)

You might take a look at the Ring of Lies, then, from the Reaver raid; Brenna only have a few points in diplo, but with that equipped (+13 diplo, +11 bluff (I think), and +4 cha) she's been having good luck with Diplomacy with that equipped.

[char_db]

Improved Feint is AOE? That does indeed make it significantly orea tractive... The feat description sayd "An Enemy" I always thought it was like Trip or Stun.

Still dontknow if its worth taking CE when Diplo and Bluff are there as skills.

diplo and bluff seem to be on the same timer, 10 second cooldown. I think bluff as a skill alone sucks. bluff has an animation you gotta wait for, and you have to have an enemy in your focus orb, and you get a whole lot of it not working if they get to your side or back during an attack.

Imp Feint seems to be AoE and it uses your bluff skill with an 8 second cooldown i believe. so taking I.F. combined with your Diplo skill truly gives you 2 options for shedding baddies.

[adamkatt]

Great build Allen! My lvl 4 with his nice +1 flaming burst greataxe of maiming does mucho damage!

[sigtrent]

I wouldn't take spring attack just for the sake of having spring attack. If you go tempest I can buy it. Its a style thing though, if you really like it that's fine. I do "dance around" wtih my rogue alot because his HP pool is pretty shallow while his DPS is pretty strong so you have to know when to get the heck out of dodge and find a corner to heal up in.

Shade mentioned the key to rogue accuracy. Sneak attack bonuses. I always use an off hand sneak attack bonus item and main hand a heavy hitter of some kind. (so at the moment its +5 shocking burst rapier of deception main hand, and +1 Flaming rapier of Backstab 5 in the off hand) So while my normal to hit is only 19 or so with the main hand, the +5 from the backstab, +2 flanking, +1 backstab from enhancement all kick in sending me to 27 before GH and the like which is quite respectable. If I lose aggro my accuracy drops like a stone, but in a way thats good because it means I loose agro pretty quickly at that point even if I keep swinging. Not so good if you like to solo though.

[SableShadow]

bump for upcoming maintenance

[Greenhorn]

Any suggestions on how to continue the build through lvl20 consistent with the initial goals of the build? I still consider myself a novice compared to most so any suggestions or a build sheet refresh for someone like me who still needs to follow a build would be awesome. Thanks!

[Impaqt]

Any suggestions on how to continue the build through lvl20 consistent with the initial goals of the build? I still consider myself a novice compared to most so any suggestions or a build sheet refresh for someone like me who still needs to follow a build would be awesome. Thanks!



Carry Rogue to 20. 18/2 endgame is a nice split.

Being this build is 2 years old, I would not go the same route today I did back then. But it can still be a nice build.

[centurian]

The Potent Rogue: L20 Projection 18Rogue/2Fighter

I dont think people who play Rogues will ever stop complaining about not being wanted in parties. Hopefully this build will help dispell the myth that rogues are not good melee builds. I've played a Rogue Hybrid build for quite some time and have no issue getting groups, but I primarily run in-Guild with her and have her tweaked out pretty good.

I wanted this build to be doable for the masses... I think 32Point is rather important though. Reducing this to 28Pt I feel would limit it too much. THis is really the first time I've been convinced that a 32pt build is significantly better than a 28pt. I would probobly just Drop CON to 12 for the dif.... THis guy has a LOT of hit points as it is. the 28 you lose isnt the end of the world.

Important Item you need for this build.
+6 STR Item: THis is a STR Based Build, Using +4 isnt the end of the world though.
+6 INT Item: These are unusually common.
+6 CON Item: +4 means 14 fewer hit points... again.....Not the end of the world.
+13 or better Rogue skill Items: THese are becoming increasingly more common, and with UMD you should have no trouble if its Race Restricted.
+1 Dex Tome: With a 12 Starting Dex, you'll need a +1 Tome to get to the required 13 for Dodge.
atlernate: You could take a Point from CHR,WIS,or CON to use on Dex and eat one of those tomes.

My personal feeling is that the Cabal Trap on Hard and Elite is nothing but a way to Gimp Rogues.... ANy Rogue that can hit that Trap on elite is severly gimped in some way. I dont consider it Important. You shouldnt either. THis guy can hit Everything else in the game.. WIth a Couple pices of Raid loot, He will hit everything else in the game without the chance of failure.



Level 14 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Rogue)
Hit Points: Potential of 300+ Standing
20 Heroic Durabiity
72 L12 Rogue
20 L2 Fighter
10 Dragonic Vitality
84 22 CON
16 Toughness
50 Dwarf Toughness
---
272 + False Life :eek:

Spell Points: 0

Base Attack: +26 +26 +31/+36
UNBUFFED... THis guy will easily be +30 with common buffs.

11 BAB
1 Slashing Focus
2 DWA
9 STR Bonus
3 Weapon
---
+26 First Swing Unbuffed

Damage With +3 Holy of Pure Good Dwarven Axe
1d12 +9STR +3Weapon +1d10Holy +1d6Good + 6d6+4 Sneak Attack
6.5 +9 +3+5.5+3.5+25 = 52.5 Average Damage Non-Crit

Saving Throws:
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 17
Will: 10

3/0/0 Fighter 2
4/8/4 Rogue 12
6/5/2 Attribute Modifiers
4/4/4 Resistence ITem
------
17/17/10
+5 Dwarven Spell Defense
+4 GH
+2 Recitation
28/28/21
Gets all saves over 20 against spells.... Add +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge for elite traps and Crucible Traproom/swim.. No Problem.

Armor Class:
10 BASE
10 +5 Mithral Breastplate
5 DEX Bonus
7 +5 Heavy Sheild
3 THeranal Spec Ops
2 Invader Ring
1 Dodge Feat
--
38 Standing Unbuffed with average Items
2 +5 ProtectionItem
1 Barksin Potion
--
41 Over 40 is Easy

More Buffs the Better... over 50 WIth Improved Uncanny Dodge and dont forget about +4 WHile TUmbling.
add Chaos Guards for an additional +2 Dodge, Haste, A Friendly Ranger and Paly... Seeing a 60AC in your character screen can happen.




Abilities
(32 Point Build)

{28}Strength 16 +3 Levels +1 Fighter +6 Item +2 Favor Tome
{20}Dexterity 12 +1 Tome +2 Rogue Dex +5 Item
{22}Constitution 16 +6 Item
{20}Intelligence 14 +6 Item
{14+Wisdom 10 +4 Item
{14}Charisma 10 +4 Item

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2



Skills:
{26}Balance: 17 Ranks +5 Dex +4 Dwarf
No need for an Item with a 26 Balance

{30+}Bluff: 17 Ranks +2 CHR +ITEM
{30+}Diplomacy: 17Ranks +2CHR + ITEM
Maxing Bluff and Diplomacy give you 2 Options to get your potent Sneak Attack in.

{53}Disable Device: 17 Ranks +5 INT + 13Item +7 Tools +2ENH +2 WotM +4 GH +3 Boost
Strong enough for most traps. add +2Luck and +3 Reaver Bracers for and unfalable 58

{26}Jump: 17 Ranks +9 STR

{46+}Open Lock: 17Ranks +5Dex +7 Tools +13 Item +2ENH +2WotM +more..
You wont need it Far exceeds HWM

{41+}Search 17Ranks +2 Dwarf +2ENH 13 Item +5 INT +3 Boost
Exceeds HWM

{36+}Spot: 17 Ranks +2 ENH +13 Item +2WIS +2 Heroism Pot.
Exceeds HWM. More easily Obtainable

{9}Tumble: 4 Ranks +5 Dex
Enough to TUmble

{28+}Use Magic Device:
17Ranks +2CHR +3SF +3Cartouse 3 Boost =28 +4 GH =32
UMD any Item in the game, Boost to Raise Dead.


Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Solid build Alandale.Im working on or thinking of rolling a rogue/monk mix but undeceided as what way too go with it.I like my well rounded builds and been soloing alot lowbie stuff lately,so not sure what direction but ill think of something.