Another Dwarven Intimitank

[Impaqt]

Just Rolled this guy and would like some input from other Intimitanks.. (Riot, Borr0) I was influenced a lot in my decision to roll a tank based on the Borr0 Dwarf Build... However, I'm a Hit Point Junky so wanted to see how many Toughness Hit points I could squeeze into the build and still make sure he was an effective Tank. I'e spent a Lot of time Tweaking the Will save. My First Revision was about 7 Points Lower....

I'm pretty happy with a 21-23(Plus Spell Defense) Standing unbuffed at this point.

Since I put more points in CON and Less in CHR, I felt taking that 3rd Level of Paly was worth it(And Ultimatly 4th). My Own aura is buffed to 2 now instead of 1 so that makes up some of the CHR Difference right there.

I'm pretty excited about a 50+ Unbuffed Standing AC in Adamantine Full Plate. THats without Raid Gear. I hit the Reaver and Titan Quite reguarlly so Geting THe Raid stuff I would like should not be out of the question. I already have the Daggertoth Belt and all stat Items and Tomes I've included.

The Build is Currently at Level 5. I'm getting the Hang of using Intimidate efectively. THis is the first character I've built to use it.

I'm thinking Levels 15 and 16 with be 15 Fighter and 16 Paly. L4 Paly simply because end game having the extra level of Play for my Lay on Hands doesnt hurt my Fighter levels at all. Plus a few Spells cant hurt.

I really Like Spring Attack on this build... Once I gain Aggro, I may need to Bonce around a bit and moving quickly to wack mobs to keep aggro can be a huge benefit. Plus, With a TS and CE, my To Hit is already suffering so Why take the additional -4? Tumble Feat can easily be taken advantage of the way I have the Skills Set up.

L20 Projection 16 Fighter/4Paly

Level 14 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(11 Fighter \ 3 Paladin)
Hit Points: 366+ Standing
20 Heroic Durability
110 L11 Fighter
30 L3 Paly
10 Dragonic Vitality
42 CON Bonus(No Item)
16 Toughness
80 TOughness ENH (Fighter III and Dwarven IV)
---
308
16 Toughness/Heavy FOrt Helm
---
324 Potential Standing
42 w/ COn Item
---
366 Potential Standing w/o False Life


Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24

14 BAB
10 STR Bonus
2 Dorf Axe Attack
1 Slashing FOcus
3 +3 Weapon
---
+30 Unbuffed
2 Madstone Rage
1 Haste
4 Greater Heroism (Gird)
---
+37 Self Buffed
-2 Tower Sheild
-5 Combat Expertise
---
+30

Saving Throws:
Fortitude: 30
Reflex:22
Will:23
7/3/3 Fighter 11
3/1/2 PaLY
6/4/2 Attribute Modifiers (note: Fort and Will cannot be maxed at same time)
5/5/5 Divine Grace
0/0/2 Iron Will
2/2/2 Aura
4/4/4 Resistance Item
2/2/2 Luck (Head)
-----
29/21/22
4/4/4 Greater Hero
------
33/24/26
+5 Dwarven Spell Resistance

Armor Class Potential
10 Base
13 +5 Adamantine Full Plate
4 Dex Bonus (With Dagertooth Belt & DAM I)
9 +5 Mithral Tower Sheild
1 Dodge Feat
5 Protection CLoak
3 Chattering Ring
2 Chaos Guards
2 Paly AUra
5 Combat Expertise
1 "Of Parrying" weapon (Yes, I use these!)
--
55 Standing AC
1 Haste
3 Bark Pot/Rager Bark
4 Madstone Rage
2 Blocking AC
---
65
71 While TUmbling or against Giants 75 Tumbling against Giants(Reaver!) :eek:

Other Bonus' available from a Full Rangers Bark and Fully Palys nearby for and addition 4 points..... Cant count on that always though.

Attributes:
(32 Point) [/B]
{30}Strength 16 +3 Levels +3 Fighter +6 Item +2 Favor Tome
{18}Dexterity 12 +1 TOme +5 Item
{22}Constitution 16 +1 Tome +5 Item
{13}Intelligence 12 +1 Tome
{14}Wisdom 8 +1 Tome +5 Item
{20}Charisma 13 +1 Paly +1 Tome +5 Item

Noteable Skills:
{40}Intimidate:
17 Ranks +5 CHR +3 Feat +2 ENH +13 Item

{22}JUMP:
12 Ranks +10 STR =22

{12}Tumble:
8 Ranks +4 Dex =12 (Tumble in Adamantine Full Plate with a Mithral Tower Sheild(-11 Modifier))


I sacrificed Balance for Tumble..... As a Dwarf, I can still get close to a 20 Balance with an Item.
I think this is a good trade off for the build.... We'll see.

FEATS
Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Sheild Mastery

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will (Spec to Force of Personality w/ Mod 6)

Level 7 (Fighter)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

Level 10 (Fighter)

Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate

Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Imroved Shield Mastery
(Note: On my personal build, I have Kopesh instead of Shield Mastery. THis is because I already have a Boatload of nice Kopeshes. I would not advise Kopesh's for this build otherwise.)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Mobility I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

Typical Item Config.

HELM: Intimidate Helm/TOughness&Heavy Fort
Necklace: Swap CON and Wisdom as Needed
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune.
CLoak: +4 Resistance/+5 Protection/Elemental Resists
BELT: Daggertooth Belt
Ring 1: +5 CHR
Ring 2: Intmidate/Chattering/Invaders Ring
Boots: +5 Dex/Feather Fall/Striders
Gloves: +6 STR
Bracers: Chaos Guards
Googles:

Skill Point Distribution
Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 4 (Paladin)
Skill: JUMP (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: JUMP (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: JUMP (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)

[Blazer]

In your end-game gear layout, you don't actually list the +13 Intimidate item. Where is it going and what will it replace? My guess would be the Invaders ring.

I think you'll find that having a WIS helmet and keeping your CON necklace on will be the best configuration for you when you are tanking. Mod Fort from the Head will be plenty when your AC is pushing mid-to-high 50s. Consider if the mobs can only hit you on a 20. That means with Mod Fort your chances of getting critted are (0.05 * 0.05 * 0.25) 0.0625%, assuming I do the math correctly. Even if they only need a 19-20 to confirm the crit, that pushes it up to 0.125% chance to be critted, or 1/8th of 1%. Pretty slim.

Regarding Balance vs Tumble - I don't know what your personal playstyle is, but unless you like to tumble around alot, I think balance will serve you better. If you can get your balance to a decent level without an item, that saves you a gear slot.

Why are you taking CE so late in your build? There are many quests where your ability to tank could be useful. I'm think mostly of Sorrowdusk elite trolls and ogres, VON 1 and 3 end trolls, Gianthold mobs (if you break in there before level 13).

Any thoughts as to taking that 3rd paladin level earlier? Again, I don't know your playstyle or how you level up, but running a lot of low level quests on elite, Fear is a spell the enemy casters like to throw out. Having the innate immunity to it would/could come in handy.

I don't have an intimitank as my main like Riot or Borror0 do, but I have played one through high level content. So consider these the observations of an amateur initimidate player and take them for what they're worth. ;)

[Impaqt]

I have a Skullsmasher right now for +10 Intim, For my +13 I was thinking Helm.... AS you said, the Heavy for is probobly not as critical...

I am still torn on Balance Vs. Tumble...... I really would like to be able to TUmble effectively in my Full Plate... Gotta sit down and figure it out... WIth a couple Armor Mastery Enhancments and perhaps a +5 Stat item with TUmble on it (boots?) perhaps I could get away with just a few points in Tumble.... Of course, +10 Tumble is easily obtained with a Potion too.. SOmething you cant do with Balance.... For those times when I might actually need to tumble.

CE So late in the build is simply becasue I wanted to take it at a point where the -5 to hit didnt matter as much. I'll Probobly move it up a couple levels.. Swapping Greater Focus and CE wouldnt be an issue.

I pushed Paly 3 out to Level 9 for a couple reasons...... but mostly I wanted Improved Crit as soon as I could get it... the 20 Crit range of axes sucks :)

Being Feared at low levels absolutely bites... I carry tons of Remove Fear potions though so its a temporary setback... Getting Paly 3 at Level 9 gets me my fear immunity right before I head out into the desert..... And into the Mummy Stage of the game......

I always value your input Blazer :)

[Borror0]

OK, I'm scanning your thread in search of things you could improve, so sorry if it order if a bit messy.


Abilities:



Pretty decent, but I see a few possible minor tweaks.
Lower Cha to 12, that will give you two points. -1 Saving Thrwos is not the end of the world.
Raise Dex to 14. Like this you'll be able to reach 18 Dex with Madstone Boots. A +2 Tome could get you 20!
13 Dex could also be an option if you want to use the Dex tome. In that case, bump Int to 13 and get a fews more skill points, they are always nice.



Feats:



I'm not quite fond of Khpoesh, but your reason to use it is a good one. In the wrose of all cases, if you make an other khopesh user, you'll just switch the feat out and you'll still have dwarven axes which are really nice weapons.
I'm starting to see Spring Attack as a good line of feats. I thought I'd never say that a few months ago, but now, I see its utility. As a tank, MOVE! I jump around so much it's not even funny sometimes.
As Blazer said, CE is to move up in the list. I'd switch out its order with Khopesh and take the third paladin level at 11. Like this, you'll get to use Khopesh at level 10 which probably where all your good khospeshes are anyway.
Shield Masteries and



Enhancements:



Everything seems good, small tip: never ever take Dwarven Axe Damage, pretty much a lost of APs for what it costs.
You may want to add Dwarven Shield Mastery on your list of "wants". Pretty useful. ;)



Items:



Throw at Con item at the garbage... or your bank at least. You'll not need it. Daggertooth does the job for me. You're a bunch of HP ahead of me, and I don't really have problems with HP. Just advice, try it out and tell me what you think. a +1 tome or Dwarven Constitution would take care of an odd number. Sometimes Dwarven Constitution nets you more than Dwarven Thoughness. (2 APs for 14 HP is more than 5 Hp for onne AP. ;))
Don't forget about Spectacular Optics, always nice think to put in a google spot. I use it a lot to compensate when I swap my +5 Portection necklace.
Mentau Googles, best thing to put in google spot right now...
Like Blazer said, Moderate Fortification is enough, Heavy is better, but is pretty much overkill. You learn fast. ;)



Skills:



Diplomacy?:confused:
I'd max tumble up to where it's needed (positive number), and then I'd max either UMD or Balance.
I can Tumble with GH on (I'm at zero without it). So you'd not need much more than this.



Finally, I'd like to mention I'm taking over the Fighter forums.. Blazer, now Impact... being refered by Grenfell...:rolleyes: Sounds good to me.:D

By the way Impact, since you're on Thelanis.. I'd like to group with that little boy one of these days. :)
It's good build, he seems adacpted to your playstyle, which is a good thing. :)

That's all I think of for now,
Hope this helps!

Borror0

[Impaqt]

OK, I'm scanning your thread in search of things you could improve, so sorry if it order if a bit messy.


Abilities:



Pretty decent, but I see a few possible minor tweaks.
Lower Cha to 12, that will give you two points. -1 Saving Thrwos is not the end of the world.
Raise Dex to 14. Like this you'll be able to reach 18 Dex with Madstone Boots. A +2 Tome could get you 20!
13 Dex could also be an option if you want to use the Dex tome. In that case, bump Int to 13 and get a fews more skill points, they are always nice.



Not totally opposed to Rerolling, but I'm also believe +2 Stat tomes are going to be getting more and more common as levels go up... One more Skill point a level woulnt be a bad thing on this build, but I dont think its critical. Gonna run with these stats for a bit, but good input to think about.




Feats:



I'm not quite fond of Khpoesh, but your reason to use it is a good one. In the wrose of all cases, if you make an other khopesh user, you'll just switch the feat out and you'll still have dwarven axes which are really nice weapons.
I'm starting to see Spring Attack as a good line of feats. I thought I'd never say that a few months ago, but now, I see its utility. As a tank, MOVE! I jump around so much it's not even funny sometimes.
As Blazer said, CE is to move up in the list. I'd switch out its order with Khopesh and take the third paladin level at 11. Like this, you'll get to use Khopesh at level 10 which probably where all your good khospeshes are anyway.
Shield Masteries and


Moving Paly 3 to 11 wouldnt be a stretch... Good idea. Sheild Masteries?



Enhancements:



Everything seems good, small tip: never ever take Dwarven Axe Damage, pretty much a lost of APs for what it costs.
You may want to add Dwarven Shield Mastery on your list of "wants". Pretty useful. ;)


Did I leave Dwarven Axe Damage in there? Gotta remove it if I did, I totally agree. as noted in my SHeild feat selection, I want to see how often i need to Turtle up... If it becomes a habit, i'll definatly invest more into DR... Both Feats and ENH.


Items:



Throw at Con item at the garbage... or your bank at least. You'll not need it. Daggertooth does the job for me. You're a bunch of HP ahead of me, and I don't really have problems with HP. Just advice, try it out and tell me what you think. a +1 tome or Dwarven Constitution would take care of an odd number. Sometimes Dwarven Constitution nets you more than Dwarven Thoughness. (2 APs for 14 HP is more than 5 Hp for onne AP. ;))
Don't forget about Spectacular Optics, always nice think to put in a google spot. I use it a lot to compensate when I swap my +5 Portection necklace.
Mentau Googles, best thing to put in google spot right now...
Like Blazer said, Moderate Fortification is enough, Heavy is better, but is pretty much overkill. You learn fast. ;)


I can definatly see waering a +13 Intimidate Helm more often than the Heavy fort helm, As well as the +5 Wisdom Necklace over the CON.... I was already plannin on readinga CON tome cause I dont have a +6 Con item... Fitting in Dwarf Con I may not be a stretch.

Spec ops are a good idea.. I have my +5 Protection cloak banked.. But if I need my elemental resists it wouldbe nice to have some protection AC.




Skills:



Diplomacy?:confused:
I'd max tumble up to where it's needed (positive number), and then I'd max either UMD or Balance.
I can Tumble with GH on (I'm at zero without it). So you'd not need much more than this.



Diplomacy: oops.. First Draft leftover... Those points went into Jump. I'll definatly switch the overage in Tumble to Balance. Maybe I'll grab a few Low + Tumble items and see where the magic point is with the Adamtine Full plate.... Or maybe I'll just ave to calculate it out..... :)






Finally, I'd like to mention I'm taking over the Fighter forums.. Blazer, now Impact... being refered by Grenfell...:rolleyes: Sounds good to me.:D

By the way Impact, since you're on Thelanis.. I'd like to group with that little boy one of these days. :)
It's good build, he seems adacpted to your playstyle, which is a good thing. :)

That's all I think of for now,
Hope this helps!

Borror0

Thanks for the Input Borr0.... Its kinda neat to start gettin some recognition for your efforts aint it? I remeber the first times my cleric builds were referenced..... ANd some of my other guides..... It makes these somewhat tedius tasks(Designign Builds and Guides) worth it.

[Borror0]

Sorry about Shield Masteries... :eek:

I meant to say that Shield Masteries and Weapon Specialisation would be the first I'd remove with no regret! :)

[Riot]

If you really want a BIG ROCK of a Tank...

Lose Mobility, Spring Attack, and Khopesh. (You have Dwarven war axe for free).

Take Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Improved Shield Bash....
And DARE anything to hit you...

This would be a VERY defensive Build. And a Squishy's best friend.

[Borror0]

This would be a VERY defensive Build. And a Squishy's best friend.

And awfully boring with close to no DPS...:rolleyes:

[Riot]

I disagree... With Greater Focus, and Improved Crit. & weilding the DWA as a main weapon.

It'll do just fine.

I think to much emphasis is put on offense in many occasions. It's not necessary to squeeze every ounce of Offense out of a Defensive build to make it viable.

[Impaqt]

I've already foregone many common DPS feats and enhancements for defense on this build. WIth the Cap being raised, I can see taking Sheild mastery and ISM when the cap goes up. as for Improved Bash.... Nah.... Kopesh i sMuch more effective IMO... Even as a dwarf..... As I said, I have 2 other Dwarf builds.. Bother cleric based, but one is melee focused and most of my sweet dwarven axes fo to him cause he really needs the added enhancements....

I Cataloged all my Kopeshes this morning.... Was gonna post em for sale/Trade and after looking at the list it wuld be near immpossile to replace them all with Dwarf axes ina timely manner..... Plus,Many of them are Maiming.. WIth IC ona Kopesh, thats a lot of Untyped Maiming damage.... I'm especially fond of my +2 Byseck Seeker(+10) Kopesh of Maiming.... Its pretty funny how fast flayers go down with that weapon.

[Riot]

Then at this point.... I would call this build a Typical Dwarven Hybrid.

[Impaqt]

Then at this point.... I would call this build a Typical Dwarven Hybrid.

OK, Just so I have this straight.....

Borror0's Dwarven Tank is the Best Dwarven Tank you'e ever seen......

THis build Has More Hit Points, Similar Saves, Standing AC within 1 or 2 Points, a Better TO Hit, But Lower DPS, SIgnificantly Higher AC Potential WHile Tumbling, Similar Intimidate, DR 3/Adamantnine, Fear and Disease Immunity.

The only thing he has on his build that is better defensivly is Sheild Mastery... and Just one.... THey Definatly Play differently..... But from a Defensive Standpoint, That all I'm truly lacking.

If I swapped Kopesh for Sheild Mastery (SOmething that the average person who rolled this Tank might do) how would you rate it?

At that point, the primary Difference in the builds would be +4 Damage Vs. +4 To Hit while Moving...... WHich is more Tank like?

[Borror0]

I disagree... With Greater Focus, and Improved Crit. & weilding the DWA as a main weapon.

It'll do just fine.

Yeah, I know. Guess what, that's my build!!:eek:

What I meant is that by switching these feats for Shield Bashing feats, he is loosing DPS:


DPS from Khopesh, khopesh do more damage than DWA and he's got more good Khopeshes.
Shield Bashing is borked, really, really borked. I swing at the mob gfor like... 6-12? With loads of misses! Woot! What awesome DPS!!:rolleyes: Do not argue me, I've test it.
He said he'll move a lot, so you're basicly removing 4 to-hit from his build, that's taking DPS.
He said he'll play the build and see about Shield Masteries. You cannot blame that, it is very wise from him. He is not saying he won't take them, he wants to see how much he'll Shield Block. By the way, he's only 3 DR behind me.



I think to much emphasis is put on offense in many occasions. It's not necessary to squeeze every ounce of Offense out of a Defensive build to make it viable.

Nope, but adding too much defense in a defensive build is gimping it. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, at all.

I meant that shield bashing is not a good playstyle, at least to me. I know you like it, I don't. I don't think Impact would like it either.

Now, Shield Masteries are good, there are times where blocking is the way to go/survive. But they are last on my priority list.


The only thing he has on his build that is better defensivly is Sheild Mastery... and Just one.... THey Definatly Play differently..... But from a Defensive Standpoint, That all I'm truly lacking.

If I swapped Kopesh for Sheild Mastery (SOmething that the average person who rolled this Tank might do) how would you rate it?

I think he'd rate it much higher. I also think thaT khopesh is overkill on any dwarf.

However, you've got a good reason to go that way, if you ever feel like rolling another khopesh user, feel free to do so and steal all of this guy's khopesh.
He'll do fine in DWA!:)

I'd advise anyone copying your build to not take Khopesh...

But right now, in your case: Good khopesh > Bad Dwarven axes, even if it costs a feat! :)


At that point, the primary Difference in the builds would be +4 Damage Vs. +4 To Hit while Moving...... WHich is more Tank like?

+4 to-hit while moving. I've got me thinking about Spring Attack now!!:eek:

[Impaqt]

OK, I've adjusted the official build for CE at Level 9, and Sheild Mastery at Level 13. It definatly makes more sense from a Build standpoint... Personally, I'm still taking Kopesh for now.... at lease until I can replace some of these with DWA's...

[Riot]

SIgnificantly Higher AC Potential WHile Tumbling,
This doesn't mean squat.


# DPS from Khopesh, khopesh do more damage than DWA and he's got more good Khopeshes.
It's not that big of a difference in a group. Nor for a Tank.


# Shield Bashing is borked, really, really borked. I swing at the mob gfor like... 6-12? With loads of misses! Woot! What awesome DPS!! Do not argue me, I've test it. It's not like you use it exclusively. Or as a primary attack method. But when you do use it, it's better than ZERO DPS, and you still maintain your AC/DR ability.


THis build Has More Hit Points, Similar Saves, Standing AC within 1 or 2 Points, a Better TO Hit, But Lower DPS, SIgnificantly Higher AC Potential WHile Tumbling, Similar Intimidate, DR 3/Adamantnine, Fear and Disease Immunity.

HP are the 3rd Tier of the Tanks defense, Your saves are still lower, 1 to 2 points of AC is not a Drop in the bucket, Do you realize how much damage that prevents in just one quest? Now multiply that over the lifetime.

Again, Tumbling is worth Jack N Squat. DR3/Adamantine isn't impressive, nor is Fear or Disease Immunity. I do that with gear on a straight fighter.

Spring Attack/Khopesh, is the main reason I call you a Hybrid. Why you think this is a slam is beyond me. There's nothing wrong with Hybrid fighters, and Dwarves happen to make some of the best.

But I'd take the B- Dwarf over this one for a Tank job. (After a Riott Tank of course) =)

[Borror0]

It's not like you use it exclusively. Or as a primary attack method. But when you do use it, it's better than ZERO DPS, and you still maintain your AC/DR ability.

Would it add more damage overtime than khopesh would? Not really.

To me, totally wasted feat.


HP are the 3rd Tier of the Tanks defense, Your saves are still lower, 1 to 2 points of AC is not a Drop in the bucket, Do you realize how much damage that prevents in just one quest? Now multiply that over the lifetime.

It's a matter of gear, he doesn't have much Dex lower than Riott do as far as I'm concern, only two points. He can reach higher AC by himself than you can because he gets +2 aura, so unless you got a paladin in your group all the time, he beats you by 1 AC.

If his AC is too low, he'll drop that +5 addamantine FP. Not the end of the world.

But yeah, he's less than good than me. But the ammount is so low than it's a joke.
I'd still take a Borror in my group over this guy too, but this guy is a really good alternative, he can hold his own. He know he's not the best tank. He said it. But i still think he is an intimitank.

[Impaqt]

Presenting builds is not a competetion.... There is no Winners or Losers...

Ran tangleroot on Elite last night with th is guy.. I was l5, Highest was l6 in the group.... Asside from a Suicidal ranger, I kept deaths to a minimum, was able to draw massive amounts of aggro (Even the end boss) with intimidate, and let the Barb and Rogue do their jobs. I died twice due to being held and once the first time we hit the elite spider Princes.... (Couple people aggored em before we were ready.... Cleric wasnt even zoned in yet.... just a dumb mistake)

Got l6 last night and took my 2nd paly level and Iron Will... Will save jumped for 3 to 9 so hopefully that will cut down significantly on the hold fails.

I'm still getting used to Spring attack.. Its nice... and anyone who discounts Tumble can not had ever used it effectively. Its an incredibly defesive feat... +6 ac is HUGE... Intimidate, Tumble..... Nothing hit me..... Whats better Absorbing Damage via Sheild Mastery or Avoiding it all together by Tumbling? Its a Play style choice.... There is no right or wrong answer.. Its a Play style choice..... Both seem incredibly effective to me right now.

[Riot]

Would it add more damage overtime than khopesh would? Not really.

To me, totally wasted feat.

When you are shield blocking, how much damage does you Khopesh Do?
ZERO.....

How much damage does your shield do?
ZERO.....

If you never shield block, why even bother with Shield Mastery?

The point being, ISB is useful for when you are shield blocking. You are not left with ZERO offense.

I don't understand why you find this difficult to comprehend.
----------------------------------------------------------

Tumble isn't as useful as you think it is.
If the point is to move around an not be hit, You don't need tumble for that.
I can Intimi-Kite alot more effectively with my Gyroscopic boots on.

The point of Intimi-Tanking, is Not to lead "mobs on parade". It's to bring em together so someone else can pound them/AoE them.

If you're pulling, fine... But again running is easier and just as effective.
----------------------------------------------------------

If you're comparing him to the Riott Tank, there's a hoard of skill points lacking, not to mention Human recovery advantage.

I think you said it too.

I'd still take a Borror in my group over this guy too, but this guy is a really good alternative, he can hold his own. He know he's not the best tank. He said it.

Just like any good Hybrid should.
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Whats better Absorbing Damage via Sheild Mastery or Avoiding it all together by Tumbling?

Depends.... If you are lining up mobs for your teamates. Staying Still is Better.
If you're only reason for Tumbling is to avoid being hit.... Just Run.

Nothing can be more frustrating to DPS'ers than an Intimitank who bounces all over the place with the mobs.

[Impaqt]

Its not that hard to Tumble Back and Forth keeping the mobs tightly bunched up.....

Running AC: 54
Tumbling AC:60

You can move just as fast TUmbling in this game as you can "Running"

I guess my biggest QUestion is this....

If your AC is so high that Mobs cant hit you, WHat damage is SHeild Blocking absorbing?

[Riot]

Its not that hard to Tumble Back and Forth keeping the mobs tightly bunched up.....
You can move just as fast TUmbling in this game as you can "Running"

You are aware, that if mobs don't hit you, Your AC can equal 10 and it won't matter right?

Just checking.

I mean, You do understand that you Tumbling, With Your Mobility Feat, at an AC 90+ Is jsut as effective as running in a circle with an AC of 10?
You get this right?


I guess my biggest QUestion is this....

If your AC is so high that Mobs cant hit you, WHat damage is SHeild Blocking absorbing?

First, every Natural 20 in the game. Surrounded by 10 mobs? You'll be hit twice every time the group makes 2 swings. Not counting average disparity.

Secondly, there are some mobs which can hit AC's in the 50's with a natural 20.

Clearly, what you don't seem to understand is how annoying it is to chase mobs around that are following someone.

The Point of an Intimitank is to bring the mobs to one spot for others to beat on. And be able to survive/contribute to the beat down. By taking Spring Attack, Mobility, and lacking 2 of the shield feats, IN MY OPINION.... And you did ask for it..... You are a Hybrid.

Really now, I've said the same thing several times now... This isn't a hard concept.

[Impaqt]

You are aware, that if mobs don't hit you, Your AC can equal 10 and it won't matter right?

Just checking.

I mean, You do understand that you Tumbling, With Your Mobility Feat, at an AC 90+ Is jsut as effective as running in a circle with an AC of 10?
You get this right?
Absolutely False. Its quite evident that our To Hit box Lags behind us..... i'D much rather have the extra +6 AC if I need to get out of the way of a mob.



First, every Natural 20 in the game. Surrounded by 10 mobs? You'll be hit twice every time the group makes 2 swings. Not counting average disparity.

Secondly, there are some mobs which can hit AC's in the 50's with a natural 20.

Clearly, what you don't seem to understand is how annoying it is to chase mobs around that are following someone.

The Point of an Intimitank is to bring the mobs to one spot for others to beat on. And be able to survive/contribute to the beat down. By taking Spring Attack, Mobility, and lacking 2 of the shield feats, IN MY OPINION.... And you did ask for it..... You are a Hybrid.

Really now, I've said the same thing several times now... This isn't a hard concept.

The Only concept I've grasped out of all your input is that no one can make a "Tank" that Deviates from "Your Template". I asked for your Input because I had respect for the Riot build.

You say Running away from mobs and Not getting hit is better than Tumbling back and forth to keep them inthe same place? You just contradicted yourself. Running back and forth is FAR from Tumbling.....

Running = NO Boost to AC
Your Cannot Run Through a Mob. You must go around them... But you CAN Tumble Through Them.

By Holding down Block and Tumbling Back and Forth, I can Hold Aggro and Keep mobs confined to a very smal area for the Barbs and Rogues to beat on. THis is what your missing.

[Borror0]

When you are shield blocking, how much damage does you Khopesh Do?
ZERO.....

How much damage does your shield do?
ZERO.....

If you never shield block, why even bother with Shield Mastery?

The point being, ISB is useful for when you are shield blocking. You are not left with ZERO offense.

I don't understand why you find this difficult to comprehend.

Ok, here (http://imageduck.com/v/screenshot00017120.jpg) is what my inventory is showing.

Say we have a 38 AC mob, which is about the average on elite:

38-20 = 18

So, I hit the mob on a 18, 19 or 20. Meaning that I hit it 15% of the time.

I'd hit for 1d6+4. So, 7.5 damage on average 15% of the time.

Adding critical hits:

1/20 * 3/20 * 15 + 2/20 *7.5 + 1/20 * 17/20 * 7.5 = 118.125 damage over 100 round!

Now, I know you got a +5 Mithril Tower Shield of Bashing, but let's just say that's not the norm! :)

Now, a second Borror, without CE so he can deal more damage, is swinging beside the first one against the same mob:

38-29 = 9 / 38-34 = 4 / 38-39 = 2 / 38-39 = 2

And he'd deal 1d10+19+2d6 per swing. So, 31.5 damage on average.

Adding crits:

1. First attack:

10/20*31.5 + 2/20*8/20*31.5 + 2/20*12/20*80.5 = 21.84

2. Second attack:

17/20*31.5 + 2/20*3/20*31.5 + 2/20*17/20*80.5 = 34.09

3. Third and Fourth attack:

19/20*31.5 + 2/20*19/20*80.5 = 35.5725

19/20*31.5 + 2/20*19/20*80.5 = 35.5725

4. Conclusion:

Over 100 round:

Total of "DPS" Borror: 13,107.5 damage
Shield Bashing Borror: 118.125 damage
Total damage: 13,225.625 damage

% DPS of Shield Bash: 0,8932%

That is considerating that there is only one melee in the group and that melee is another Intimitank, not a DPS barbarian, not a DPS rogue, not a ranger... no... a one-handed fighting fighter without Power Attack! And only one. Even if Shield Bashing would be twice faster... only 1,7863% damage added!

So, in conclusion, I'll use the words of my roomate: "Shield Bashing is for those who wants to do Low Road at level 14 without taking damage."

And there goes about an hour of my life..

PS: If you see any error in my maths, tell me... but I don't think I'm wrong.


Tumble isn't as useful as you think it is.
If the point is to move around an not be hit, You don't need tumble for that.
I can Intimi-Kite alot more effectively with my Gyroscopic boots on.

The point of Intimi-Tanking, is Not to lead "mobs on parade". It's to bring em together so someone else can pound them/AoE them.

If you're pulling, fine... But again running is easier and just as effective.

I'll say it here only once because you guys have debated in number of posts after that one too.

Mobility is there for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is useful depending on your fighting style.

Ever PvPed with Riott? Ever fought casters in there?
I'll assume you said yes. So, I also guess you know that the best against them is to get in their back so all their spell misses?

Same sort of question? Ever fought Giants with Riott?
I'll assume yes once more. Have you notice the slow pattern in their attack?
Again, I'll guess yes, since you've been around for so long.
Ever tried kill one without any AC just for fun? I did. I took one hit, avoided all the rest by jumping around.

Here's the lesson:
AC, saves and HP are your only defense. Your mobility is a great one, no matter what your build is, as long as you've got the jump to do it. This is why Spring Attack isn't a bad feat and I'm not questionning it.
A few weeks ago, I'd have been on your side. However, a guildy of mine said something that is so true:


"Every fight should be fought like in PvP. In there, you got all your HP, all your SPs, all your abilities... and you're by yourself. No one else to babysit you, only yourself. You're fighting for your life. You die, it's over. You die, you lost. No recalling for SP or recall after death, You got to take the most of what you got."

Sorry but, if you're not moving while fighting a pack of mobs, not jumping over them, not replacing yourself, not avoiding a few attacks, not placing yourself elsewhere to take less hits, you're not playing your build to the maximum.
You're not taking advantage of our combat system.


If you're comparing him to the Riott Tank, there's a hoard of skill points lacking, not to mention Human recovery advantage.

Yup, those are Riott's main advantage over Borror too.


The Only concept I've grasped out of all your input is that no one can make a "Tank" that Deviates from "Your Template". I asked for your Input because I had respect for the Riot build.

Errrr... I won't comment on that one..


By Holding down Block and Tumbling Back and Forth, I can Hold Aggro and Keep mobs confined to a very smal area for the Barbs and Rogues to beat on. THis is what your missing.

I'll sort of agree with Riot on that one thought.

I don't see tumbling as a good tactik. Chances are you'll probably never have to tumble around like a moron for more AC. If you really need help, tumbling around while shield blocking might be good, but I advise you to not tumble all the time, you won't make any friends like this.;)

But for repositionning or to save your ass, yeah, I can see that as viable.

[Impaqt]

Experimenting more with Tumbling... Ran CO6.... Withmy Heavy Mith Sheild, I can Tumble now, not quite withthe Tower sheild unless I down a Tumble Pot...

Intimidate, Block, Tumble Forward, Tumble Back, Mobs stayed very tight on me.... I certainly wouldnt start tumbling aroudn the room to hold aggro.. But I was able to keep the mobs pretty close and benefit from the extra AC.

[KiwiPhil889]

...i have a couple DPS builds,and i have a intimitank thats currently lvl11,so not super experienced with intimitanks.

Ok,that being said, from a DPS point of view, when you tumble?? and i have to move to hit the mob attacking you?? i get -4 to hit unless you tumble well enough to keep them bunched. If you do manage that?? cool. I have run with an intimidator who tumbled alot.Was very frustrating,they pulled the mobs fine,but we spent all our time running after them,so almost felt pointless to inimidate.

Your potential AC is great,and your standing is great too. I'm not too sure what AC the elite end game mobs can hit though, does it need to really go up to 70 odd??

I personally tend to build chars around concepts. When i built my inimitank i decided that my Defensive DPS wasn't going to be anywhere near my DPS builds so decided not to worry about DPS really at all,and went for "effects" type weapons. So as for dwarven axe vs khopesh?? i'd go with whatever one you can get the best range of effects out of,although you get dwarven axes for free so if you can find a better feat use?? might be something to consider.

Anyways, like the title said,an amateurs POV so take what you will out of it,or dont take what you will out of it lol.

Cheers

[Blazer]

Sorry Draag, only people who still actively play this game are allowed to comment. ;)

-Kirvan

[KiwiPhil889]

... yeah,thanx for that man,but doesn't me being able to comment here indicate that my acct is again active?? lol, saw ya the other night in fact,on Kirvan,was runnin my new barb experiment lol.

And am enjoyin soloin' through the orchard area too, although the beholder Tehe..???.something or other,gave me bit of trouble lol,Smaash is ...well... Smaashin things lol.

cheers

[Riot]

OK B... Seems my point is lost on you... One last try.

When you use Shield Mastery, you are blocking with your shield correct?
(obviously)

At that point in time, how much damage are you doing? Assume you have to block for 100 rounds....
(Since you are blocking, obviously the answer is zero)

If you have ISB how much damage would you do instead of zero?

Over 100 round:
Shield Bashing Borror: 118.125 damage

Get my point?
It's not about which DPS is higher, Khopesh or ISB....
It's about being able to DO damage while blocking, or Not.

That's why I favor ISB. Not because it's a complete whip Booty damage source. But because it IS a damage source.

------------------------------------------------

Impaqt,

You're entitled to your opinion.
Keep one thing in mind, I can do Forward Flips with Riott in FULL PLATE AND TOWER SHIELD.... I've played with Tumble.

It's uses are small, limited, and hardly worth the effort.

imho, Spring Attack is something made for lighter armored fighters/Barbs/rogues who stick and move. Because of the hit box system they are able to avoid being hit all together. (I know, I play a Robed Fighter "Akeeles Build")

Imho, and this is my opinion, Tanks Turtle up.... That's their job. Group up Enemy mobs so your group can dispatch them enmasse.

That means staying still. Imo.


--------------------------------------------------


"Every fight should be fought like in PvP. In there, you got all your HP, all your SPs, all your abilities... and you're by yourself. No one else to babysit you, only yourself. You're fighting for your life. You die, it's over. You die, you lost. No recalling for SP or recall after death, You got to take the most of what you got."

That's a great sentiment for a Hybrid fighter, DPS fighter. But I couldn't disagree more for an Intimitank.

If you want a PVP toon, DON'T MAKE AN INTIMITANK!!!!!!!

Your number one ability is useless in PvP.
They way I PvP is simple. Spells, DR, and Damage Shields.
And it's good at best. It's not a world beater.

--------------------------------------------------



Sorry but, if you're not moving while fighting a pack of mobs, not jumping over them, not replacing yourself, not avoiding a few attacks, not placing yourself elsewhere to take less hits, you're not playing your build to the maximum.
You're not taking advantage of our combat system.

Again, great advise for a DPSer or Hybrid.
Unfortunately the Tanks job is different. (In my opinion).

As a Tank standing my ground provides several advantages.

1 ) My melee allies don't have to run around ergo suffering -4 to hit.
2 ) My melee allies gain flanking because of my intimidating.
3 ) Spell casters can easily target with AoE spells either Damaging or CC. And not worry about me moving the mobs out of range. or Missing them.
4 ) Two handed weapons will get a lot more mobs in their glancing blows. Ergo increasing their DPS.
5 ) Improved precise shot archers have an easier time hitting multiple targets due to their clustered proximity.
6 ) Bottlenecking is easier if I'm not moving, there's no opening for mobs to slip through.

------------------------------------------
In short, The only time a Tank should be running around with Intimidated mobs is if he's moving them to a set place..... (And you definitely don't need Tumble to do that)

[Impaqt]

Just an Update here....

At Level 9 now. Droped Weapon Focus for SheildMastery, Abandoned Kopesh and Sticking to Dwarven axes.. I've actually colleced a few nice +2/+3 Elemental Bursting DA's of Parrying.... Should go well withthe build.

If all you ever do is Turtle up and Sheild block, I can see the issue with Mobility and Spring attack... Its an effective tactic.. But pretty boring when the safety of the party is NOT in jeopardy..... Fortunatly, I run with a guild that very rarely is in dire straights.....

I LOVE Spring Attack! Being able to move and Attack without pentaly is a huge boost on a character that is not focused on his TO HIT Modifier.

Standing with a 27Intimidate right now. If a Squisy gets aggro, I can get it off him in a hurry. If I'm Partying with a good rogue, they lead in the Kill COunt. Its a lot of fun and a ot of stratagy.

If tanks werent meant to be mobile, why do they have tracks? Seems tome in this day and age the army could easily drop in armored stationary artilery... But the benefit of a Tank is its mobility...... I find mobility quite an asset on this build.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Sounds like Riot plays by this rule: A good offense is a good defense.

[Riot]

No... a Good Offense, is a Ticked off Barbarian, or a Sorc with Distance.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

No... a Good Offense, is a Ticked off Barbarian, or a Sorc with Distance.

HAhaha, sooo true.....