For n00bs, Note about Evasion

[SteelSilvershield]

In order for evasion class ability to work, you have to be wearing light or no armor. So, if you are dipping into rogue from a mainly cleric or fighter type build, then you will either need to wear light armor, or forego use of evasion.

For all the skilled players out there, how useful is evasion later in the game and would you take a -5 to AC in order to be able to use evasion?

[Qzipoun]

Why would you take a -5 to AC?

Light armor has lower base armor bonuses but much higher max dex bonus. So you can go for light armor and still have as much AC.

[Riekan]

Evasion is very useful at the later levels of the game. As for losing AC for it, it all depends on the armor you have. If you are lucky enough to pull the Kundarak Delving Suit out of the Dragon, it is +5 Mithril Chain with the max dex of a mithril chain shirt. Essentially the same AC as +5 Mithril Full Plate, with a 22 dex. And, as it is light armor, you get to keep your evasion. This is what I wear on my capped Ranger and I love it. It looks really cool too. Until then, +5 mithril chain shirt is only 1 or 2 AC points behind it, if you have the dex to fill it out.

[Impaqt]

Evasion is very useful at the later levels of the game. As for losing AC for it, it all depends on the armor you have. If you are lucky enough to pull the Kundarak Delving Suit out of the Dragon, it is +5 Mithril Chain with the max dex of a mithril chain shirt. Essentially the same AC as +5 Mithril Full Plate, with a 22 dex. And, as it is light armor, you get to keep your evasion. This is what I wear on my capped Ranger and I love it. It looks really cool too. Until then, +5 mithril chain shirt is only 1 or 2 AC points behind it, if you have the dex to fill it out.


Of course, why Bother with Evasion if you dont have the dex to back it up? This is one of the things that most cracks me up in some of these builds.... Evasion FIghters or clerics with a 8 Base Dex... That Monster 13 Reflex Save isnt gonna do much for ya....

[ORCRiST]

Evasion is very useful at the later levels of the game. As for losing AC for it, it all depends on the armor you have. If you are lucky enough to pull the Kundarak Delving Suit out of the Dragon, it is +5 Mithril Chain with the max dex of a mithril chain shirt. Essentially the same AC as +5 Mithril Full Plate, with a 22 dex. And, as it is light armor, you get to keep your evasion. This is what I wear on my capped Ranger and I love it. It looks really cool too. Until then, +5 mithril chain shirt is only 1 or 2 AC points behind it, if you have the dex to fill it out.

Looks really cool? Mmmm...ok...if you say so, I think its FUGLY myself. Different strokes I guess...

Also, Daggertooth's belt can do essentially the same thing as having to obtain (and God forbid, actually wear) the Delving suit. Least us not forget the Silken Mail + Daggertooth's will also achieve similar (if not better) results, but again - looks FUGLY IMHO.

ORCRiST

[Shamguard]

Is Evasion usefull at higher levels? Yes, BUT YOU MUST HAVE THE REFLEX SAVE TO MAKE IT WORK.
The other thing is high level rogues get Improved Evasion, Save for None, Fail for Half. But then the mutts don't get this.:D (unless you take 10 levels of rogue.)
So if you are splashing two levels of rogue just to get evasion you may want to look at what you are giving up to get it, Caster a spell level, melee types a feat and hit points. You may also lock yourself out of some higher level enhancements. Multi-classing is a trade off you always need to look at what you are giving up along with what you are getting and then make a decision if that is what you want to do.

[Gratch]

As for non pure's splashing evasion... I hit this situation yesterday:

I hit 40+ in reflex save because the party leader thought the trap would constantly interrupt a non pure rogue and asked me to boost as high as possible... was kind of funny. This was Fleshmakers elite optional. Can pure rogues with outrageous dex get to the 40's?

Ftr7/Pal3/Rog4 -> +7
26 Cha Divine Grace -> +8
Paly Aura -> +2
24 Dex -> +7
Resist Ring -> +4
Good Fortune -> +2
Greater Hero -> +4
HV IV Save Boost -> +5
Rogue Uncanny Dodge Boost -> +4

=> 43

Let's see... a pure rogue would probably get +2 more for rogue levels and +5 more for ~34 dex. But you'd lose +10 from the Paly side. Since this was a trap, the rogue improved trap sense IV would give you and extra +4. So about a wash against traps. The rogue would have improved evasion, but the point is taking no damage while trying to disarm

Hmmm... an 11 rogue, 3 paly would have the best of both worlds (50's?)... though I dont think I could select 4 feats to give up from the fighter levels currently on this toon.

Wasn't trying to derail this thread... plus it's a good source of how to build reflex save. :)

[Shamguard]

As for non pure's splashing evasion... I hit this situation yesterday:

I hit 40+ in reflex save because the party leader thought the trap would constantly interrupt a non pure rogue and asked me to boost as high as possible... was kind of funny. This was Fleshmakers elite optional. Can pure rogues with outrageous dex get to the 40's?

Ftr7/Pal3/Rog4 -> +7
26 Cha Divine Grace -> +8
Paly Aura -> +2
24 Dex -> +7
Resist Ring -> +4
Good Fortune -> +2
Greater Hero -> +4
HV IV Save Boost -> +5
Rogue Uncanny Dodge Boost -> +4

=> 43

Let's see... a pure rogue would probably get +2 more for rogue levels and +5 more for ~34 dex. But you'd lose +10 from the Paly side. Since this was a trap, the rogue improved trap sense IV would give you and extra +4. So about a wash against traps. The rogue would have improved evasion, but the point is taking no damage while trying to disarm

Hmmm... an 11 rogue, 3 paly would have the best of both worlds (50's?)... though I dont think I could select 4 feats to give up from the fighter levels currently on this toon.

Wasn't trying to derail this thread... plus it's a good source of how to build reflex save. :)

Does it really matter at this point?
Once you reach a point where you only fail on a 1 the rest of the boosts are a waste.
Since traps are usualy a Save for no damage anyway I don't see where evasion makes any difference here.
The fact that you took 4 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge is more telling than anything else. Your not just splashing rogue to get evasion you are building a character for the higher saves.

[Snike]

Exactly, my rogue hits 32 easily, 36 boosted/buffed. I don't fail a reflex except on a 1, and guess what... a 1 isn't going to kill me like the uber 40+ reflex pally.

Don't get me wrong, a high reflex-evasion pally makes a great sub for a lvl 10+ rogue, but the difference is you have to know exactly where to go, what to do, get out quickly, and not make many if any mistakes. Improved Evasion allows a rogue to dance in a trap, wander around, pick up stones... do any of the needed things that need to be done and survive.

[SteelSilvershield]

Thanks folks. That helps. My character is going to be a Paladin10/Rogue4. The paladin enhancements at level 10 look cool on paper to me, so that's what I'm gonna go with. I love DDO.

[Shamguard]

<snip>... I love DDO.

Yes, but will you still respect it in the morning?

[Blazer]

Thanks folks. That helps. My character is going to be a Paladin10/Rogue4. The paladin enhancements at level 10 look cool on paper to me, so that's what I'm gonna go with. I love DDO.

11 Paladin gets you 30 point resist energy buffs.

[Olaff]

11 Paladin gets you 30 point resist energy buffs.

Levelcap being raised to 16 gets you 12 Pally / 4 Rogue soon.

[Blazer]

Levelcap being raised to 16 gets you 12 Pally / 4 Rogue soon.

Assuming the level cap raise comes out at a reasonable time, of course. Soon - with Turbine - is relative, after all. ;)

[Olaff]

Assuming the level cap raise comes out at a reasonable time, of course. Soon - with Turbine - is relative, after all. ;)

True. :) I was pointing that out mostly because I (personally) don't believe in speccing a character to be max-effective at the current levelcap. Build for level 20 and you'll be happier in the long run, IMO.

[binnsr]

True. :) I was pointing that out mostly because I (personally) don't believe in speccing a character to be max-effective at the current levelcap. Build for level 20 and you'll be happier in the long run, IMO.
QFT ..

Plus, some of us don't level a character to cap in a week either :)

I usually take anywhere from 3 to 5 months leveling a character.. and I play nearly every night..

[Shamguard]

QFT ..

Plus, some of us don't level a character to cap in a week either :)

I usually take anywhere from 3 to 5 months leveling a character.. and I play nearly every night..

I don't know with the Old XP levels in GH and those bonus weekends it was hard not to hit level cap this time.
Personaly I do hate running a capped character in new content. I feel like I'm wasting XP. Though capped characters are great for loot runs.

[Gratch]

Exactly, my rogue hits 32 easily, 36 boosted/buffed. I don't fail a reflex except on a 1, and guess what... a 1 isn't going to kill me like the uber 40+ reflex pally.

Don't get me wrong, a high reflex-evasion pally makes a great sub for a lvl 10+ rogue, but the difference is you have to know exactly where to go, what to do, get out quickly, and not make many if any mistakes. Improved Evasion allows a rogue to dance in a trap, wander around, pick up stones... do any of the needed things that need to be done and survive.

Crucible elite swim is around 35-36 trap save... so don't get too comfortable at 36. Devs could "Cabal-Up" traps with just a few complaints. :) Though I've seen many non-evaders get through the swim with twitch competence, lotsa pots, or 500hp toons.

Remember said Paly has more HP and toughness enhancements so that rolls of 1 don't kill them either. My evasion paly (1 toughness feat) sits at 290 hp (unbuffed).

I had fun CE'ing to mid 50's AC last night in disabling the Fleshmaker optional trap while both the lightning trap and flesh golems were both attacking. Sadly I don't think it works on elite... the golems start hitting. Usually dont have to worry about them hitting if you sneak... except when the PUG doesn't give you time to disable before they drop...

I know good rogues easily outdamage my evader paly in Gianthold. In fact since I throw 40 intimidates constantly, I hope they do. In the new Necropolis area... different story... but that's in a different thread. Now I just intimidate to serve my master: senor Firewall and BBarrier.

I took a pure rogue to 8... hit Deleras... had less fun... started reading Grenfell's builds... don't know if I'll go back to "pure" when multi is so fun. The evader Paly has the bonus of a high Fort save and with the upcoming new "use cha instead of wis" feat... mid 30's to 40's saves across the board.

[Gratch]

The fact that you took 4 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge is more telling than anything else. Your not just splashing rogue to get evasion you are building a character for the higher saves.

Actually the 4th rogue level was to keep search/spot/disable/umd/unlock maxed for a multiclass disabler and to get access to the 4th level enhancements - the +2 to skills (search and disable mostly). Does anyone actually spend 3 action points to get +1 to a skill at the 3rd tier? Maybe search for the Cabal trap... Very painful on the AP's.

Though with Mod6 on the horizon... need to figure out how the next pair of levels go.

[Blazer]

True. :) I was pointing that out mostly because I (personally) don't believe in speccing a character to be max-effective at the current levelcap. Build for level 20 and you'll be happier in the long run, IMO.

Same here Olaff. I've built my cleric and ranger out to 20, my fighter/paladin out to 18 (not sure what to do with the last 2 levels after the 12/6 split).

[Snike]

Remember said Paly has more HP and toughness enhancements so that rolls of 1 don't kill them either. My evasion paly (1 toughness feat) sits at 290 hp (unbuffed).

The issue is Improved Evasion though. When I fail, either it be a 1 or a 19 I take 1/2 damage. Having insane reflex is great, but don't fail.... I still feel Improved evasion is > than 40+ feflex. I take 1/2 damage all the time on reflex throws with a big chance to take none. High reflex pally takes no damage most of the time with a small chance to take full damage.

My rogue is sitting at 249 unbuffed.

[Gratch]

The issue is Improved Evasion though. When I fail, either it be a 1 or a 19 I take 1/2 damage. Having insane reflex is great, but don't fail.... I still feel Improved evasion is > than 40+ feflex. I take 1/2 damage all the time on reflex throws with a big chance to take none. High reflex pally takes no damage most of the time with a small chance to take full damage.

My rogue is sitting at 249 unbuffed.

Well... I think we've agreed neither takes damage when they save which is every roll but a 1, given the current trap dc levels and the toons we're discussing. So 5% of the time we're taking damage. The improved evasion means the L10+ rogue is taking half that damage. Though I see your point that if somehow saves (or their base stats) get decreased or not part of the build, you're at half damage.

My point on the capped toons was that the 7 levels of melee instead of rogue gives one access to 28 hp from levels (6 vs 10 per level) as well as 15 points of toughness enhancement. So 43 hp if we're just looking at class builds. So if both builds rolled 2 1's on traps doing 40 damage... you're about even in hp remaining. The more the trap does or the more 1's you roll, the better the rogue fares.

The paly 3 with high charisma also unlocks 2 >100 pt Lay on Hands which can be a great lifesaver if you *are* rolling 1's. Though recently I end up using them both on the aggroing arcanes.

[Shamguard]

The big thing that is being missed here and where evasion has the most affect is against AOE spells, like Flame Strike, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt and their higher level relatives. These spells get spamed by enemy casters and are all reflex saves. Now we are not talking a few points of trap damage but up to hundreds of points of damage. When these things come in 5, 10, 15, 20 at a time over several rounds you will fail at least one saving throw in there. So with a Empowered Maximized DB Fireball doing 200 HPs of damage a fail for full or a fail for half can make a big difference. This is true for Dragon's breath and other AOE damage as well.
Rogues with evasion & improved evasion are good characters to attract agro from the mobs spaming the AOE damage. I still laugh in some of the dungeons when I charge a caster and he starts casting Lightning bolts and Fireballs at me, just before I stab him with my paralyzing dagger and take him out of the combat.

[bobbysmooth]

Dude I don't know where you got that info but my evasion build has a 56 self buffed AC at lvl twelve with a prot 3 item (waitin till 13 gotta +5 necklace :) So his AC is actually quite high and thats with a +5 mith breastplate so his evasion works quite well considering he has a 29 reflex 33 with gh so traps and spells bounce right off. So yes Evasion worth it :)