Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Borror0

10-12-2007, 06:55 PM

EDIT: There may be mentions of Cleave/Great Cleave somewhere in the OP. I do not have the patience to revisit this thread with Module 9 "so close" so I'll just edit the main parts and totally revisit it later on. For reference, I swapped Lightning Reflexes, Cleave and Great Cleave for the three Two-Weapon Fighting feats (details on what I plan to do in M9 so far in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2058897&postcount=337)). If you can't afford the tome to get there, the three Two-Handed Fighting feats might be a decent alternative.

Preface:

When I was about 200 points from 1750 favor, I began to think about what I should roll as my first 32 pointer. A build that caught quickly my attention was Riot's Tank Build. So, I took the build and put it in Ron's Character Planner. As the only melee fighter I had to that day was a paladin, I was troubled by the low saves it had and I wasn't able to see a way to make all of them reach the 20s, which was, to me, the seet spot. So, I played with the Character Planner to see what I could do. After a few try, I found something really interesting. A build that beats Riott on almost everything, trust me... it wasn't easy.

Then, I sent some PMs to Riot to see what his Saves are, how he reached them. What is his intimidate, or how he reached the number he talked about in his thread. If he missed evasion since Mod 4 came out, etc. In fact, I sent him so many PMs that he must now hate me. I was surprised by the number he gave, they were really much better than expected, more then what I expected. But if Riott can reach these number, so Borror can! Don't think I'm saying Riot's build isn't a good one, it's all the opposite.

Just decided to move on with a build that was mine and was unique. I've decided to repost it due the number of question I had about it. I,m not saying this is the most uber build. I'M saying it's a build is a ton of fun to play when you learn how to play him well and you're ready to get the gear, as Borror, like all AC-based character, needs a minimum of gear before being effective.

The build is now at the version 2.0, now that Mod 6.0 came out, there are a few things that I'd change over from the original Borror. Nothing game breaking, Borror still fairs really good, but it's simply a way to adapt him more to the Shroud and quests in the Vale of Twilight.

Playing the build:

Borror is an Intimitank, that means high intimidate, good shield for when things goes out of control, high saves and most of all high AC. Don't think it's an easy to play build. Intimidates has a 10 second cooldown but is effective during only 6 seconds. Also, it's Area of Effect ability, meaning that mobs near you are affected, however, there is a certain range. That means four things:

When you trigger, mobs must be in range.
If you miss your shot and trigger Intimidate at the wrong time, you're much much less effective during 10s.
Everything must be dead or near death by then.
The party must know how to react when intimidate breaks.

It is very important to know these. At first, you'll probably suck. That's the way it is. It's not that important, you'll have a killer AC. Remember that AC is still as important at low level as it was before module 4.0, the devs didn't go back and make AC worthless there too. Until level 11, AC is king. Clerics will love you, they'd remember you. You are a clerics' wet dream. However, that's only if you suck but have good gear. It is very important to have good lowbie and high-end gear. Intimitanks are really gear-dependant, be ready for it.

Once you get good at intimidating, clerics won't like you too much. Heck, they'll even ask your AC because he only had to throw a single heal to the barbarian in the whole quest but he had to keep on healing you, this is a compliment. Honestly, it comes with practice. Just keep on questing and you'll get good at it. An intimitank is different for a DPS character, really different. It is not mindless playing, by far... and it gets crazy when you go and tank Arraetrikos! Tons of un though.:)

Now, leveling the build is a piece of cake. Your deaths will be really bad sign for the group. You'll very probably be the last man standing and will be saying "I'll get you all to the rez shrine once I'm finished with these." Even in end-game, you'll be able to top yourself of with potions... most of the time. For that reason, a intimitank is a pleasure to PuG. He can save most bad group from death. However, he good group that knows nothing about his play style, he'll be less useful. In a group that knows him a lot, he'll be awesome. Nukers will like him, clerics will like him... and squishy will want to marry him, even more for rogues.

This is to say: If you go unoticed, it's normal. If you feel useless in a good group, that's normal. They don't know how to play with you. However, wait for the bad PuG to come... and you'lll feel uber again. Also, playing with the same people raises your effiency by a very wide margin, when people get used to intimidate... it gets really nasty. I have a rogue guildy that keep saying "I <3 Borror" each time we quest, he loves intimidate.

Unlike so players believe, AC isn't dead or useless or a waste or... you get the picture. This build is still very efficient and performs really well. It is not a build were you can get a great weapon and go to town, I admit. It isn't a build where you can mindlessly click the right button of you mouse and finish a quest either. I takes a certain minimum of knowledge, of both the game on your capacities, and a certain amount of skills which is not needed when playing a barbarian. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying barbarian players are stupid or that a barbarian cannot believe of twich skills, I'm simply saying that the minimum level of skill and knowledge to play an intimitank is higher than for most builds.

Nevertheless, this build is extremly fun to play and is a nice addition to any party willing to play and take advantage of its strengths.

Lastly, this build isn't really sort of self-sufficient. If you carry around 2-3 Planar Girds (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/PlanarGird.jpg) and a few Resist Energy (11th) wands, you'll do fine. However, if the group knows what buff you need. It's even better. You cannot buff yourself 24 hours per day, 7 days a week... and sometimes your life depends on those, so ask for buffs.;)

The build:

Borror is a Lawful Good Dwarven 14 Fighter/2 Paladin.
The two level of paladin for Divine Grace and the rest of fighter for the feats.

Gear:

One of my pet-peeves on the forums is those who lists numbers but don't give a list of their possible end-gear. So, here is my list of "dream gear", I'm still looking for a few, but overall, it's what I pretty much got. Note that this build can be very effective without most of these, I just chose to show the max potential of the build.

Those will be the items used for the number crunching:

Head: Helmet of Intimidation (+15)
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/HeadofGoodFortune.jpg)
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/DaggertoothsBelt.jpg)
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 Mithril Tower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/ChatteringRing.jpg)
Ring: +6 Dexterous Ring
Bracers: Chaosguard (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Chaosgarde.jpg)
Cloak: +6 Charismatic Cloak
Googles: *See text bellow
Gloves: +6 Ogre Power Gloves
Boots: Boots of the Innocent (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/BootsoftheInnocent.jpg)

You'll notice the absence of Heavy Fortification. Moderate Fortification from the Head of Good Fortune is far more than enough for an intimitank, as long as your AC is high enough. For them to land a critical hit on you, they'll need to roll within their critical threat range and then hit your AC a second time... to finally hitting a 75% fortification. Not very likely, and that's not mentioning Blur or Displacement. So, in the end, it's all about whether or not you have an empty slot for Heavy Fortification. Right now, I don't. Maybe that with Green Steel accessories that will chance, but that, only time will tell. (Mineral II is giving +5 Protection and Heavy Fortification, really interesting already.)

As for the rest, I think it speaks for itself. If anyone has suggestions, better idea of a set up, I'd be happy to hear about it. :)

As for non-equipment stuff I carry on me you can think of a few Planar Girds (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/PlanarGird.jpg) and, sooner or later (ie I don't own any yet), a few Stoneskin clickies. I also carry Resist Energy (11th) wands, a few CSW wands and a load of potions (CSW, Barkskin (+3), Remove Fear, Remove Disease, Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness, Acid Resistance, Fire Protection, Haste, Jump, Remove Curse)! I believe that clerics got a bunch of other things to do than to search their inventories/hotbars for wands of stuff you could cure yourself!!

As for Green Steel item, I don't know what yet. The first one I'll craft will obviously go in the goggle slot, not like there is an ocean of good stuff to put in there anyway!! I'm leaning towards either AEM/FEM/(AEM+FEM) goggles that will give me a total of +45 HP, +6 to Dexterity skills (Balance and Tumble), a clicky of Displacement 2/day and a permanent Blur (no more begging for it!:D). Or, I could go for a Mineral II upgrade instead, that would net me +5 Protection and Heavy Fortification, but no +6 Dexterity skills (it'd be +6 Constitution skills... and the only one is Concentration.:().

If I ever get a Stone of Cleansing, I'll go for a Mineral II necklace, that's for sure... but I'm not holding my breath. Anyway, there is still a lot of tier three effects to be discovered, so we'll see in a few more weeks what it looks like. Maybe there will be an awesome path to take.

As for a Green Steel weapon, I'll probably go for PDM/EDM/(POE+EOE) which will be a Holy, Acid Burst, +4 Insight AC, Keen Transmuting, Slicing longsword (no Green Steel axes :(). Seems pretty much the best for me, I rather Transmuting and Slicing over those weird effects like Freezing Ice or Lightning Strike. Anyway, I'm still gathering larges, so got plenty of tiem ahead to decide... but the +4 Insight AC is a must have!

As for my helmet, I simply want to say that I currently only own a +13, but I assume that +15s are out there.

Armor Class:

I thought I should place that here with the gear as it is more suited.

10 Base
+13 Armor
+9 Shield
+5 Protection
+6 Dodge
+1 Aura
+6 Dex
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
59 Unbuffed

To that, you can had +3 Barkskin potion and Haste so you get +62 self-buffed.

Then, there is always Aura of Good from higher level paladin, Barkskin from a high level ranger, Inspire Heroics from a level 15 Bard (or higher) and Recitation from a Cleric to make you go higher.

A +3 Dex tome would make it even higher, just not in the breakdown because:

I don't have one.
They are quite rare.

Abilities:

Str 16 + 2 Enhancement + 4 Level + 6 Item + 2 Tome = 30
Dex 15 + 1 Tome + 6 Item = 22
Con 14 + 1 Tome + 3 Daggertooth Belt= 18
Int 12 + 1 Tome = 13
Wis 8 = 8
Cha 12 + 1 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item = 22

This set-up requires:

+1 Cha tome before taking your third level (Force of Personality)
+1 Int tome before taking your fourth level (Combat Expertise)

When I created Borror, I wasn't sure about 10 Con and 14 Cha vs 14 Con and 12 Cha. Back in module 4 & 5, I was satisfied of my choice. Now, in module 6, it's a little different. The Stormreaver could be tanked simply with AC, however, Arraetrikos asks for more HP and blocking DR. First time facing him in part 5, I didn't have any Toughness enhancements. I quickly changed, as 300ish HP was too squishy for him, on normal. Also, Running with the Devils is another quest pushing HP's importance up! The Ghaele's ray's that avoid all AC, has no save and cannot be avoided by any means hurt low HP character. So, if you intend to tank in there, you better be not that squishy.

As I said earlier on, a +1 Tome is required before level 4 in order to get Combat Expertise. An unbound +2 is also very nice because of the additional skill points. If I has more skill points, I'd go for UMD and would switch Lightning Reflexes for SF:UMD. The extra UMD would be very nice for bypassing race restriction, using Raise Dead, Stoneskin and Displacement scolls and Blur wands.

As for the +1 Cha tome, it's better to have one before level three, but if you can't get one you just have to pick up Iron Will and switch to Force of Personnality when you get one.

I've been asked for a "starter" version of my build, so I'll post my abilities assuming no tomes (except the one you receive at 1750), 28 point build and only +5 items (even though +6s are becoming more and more common). I'll, however, warn any new player that this type of build (ie any build focusing on AC) relies more on gear than most builds. Assuming awful gear, this build will be sub-par with most party members. However, assuming decent gear (and the right one), this build will do his job perfectly.

Str 16 + 3 Enhancement + 4 Level + 5 Item + 2 Tome = 30
Dex 13 + 5 Item = 18
Con 12 + 1 Tome + 3 Daggertooth Belt = 16
Int 13 + 1 Tome = 14
Wis 8 = 8
Cha 12 + 1 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item = 20

Note that, here, the real killer isn't the switch from 28 point to 32 point but rather the lack of +1 tomes and +6 items. A player making a 28 point version of this guy, but with both a +1 Int and Cha tome, could get a 15 Dexterity by dropping Int 12. As for 12 Con, it's not the end of the world. The original Borror has 10 Con, and he does more than fine. Pick Iron Will rather than Force of Personality and switch it for FoP with a dragonshard when you get a +1 Tome.

Feats:

Fighter feats are in italic yellow and class feats are in lime green (I love that color). Feats are placed in this order in case any feat would be needed to be changed and with easing the process of leveling in mind too. That order is the less costy and the mopst practical I found, feel free to switch the feat order to your likings. just a matter of preferences after all.

1. Fighter - Toughness, Weapon Focus : Slashing Weapons
2. Paladin - Aura of Good, Smite Evil
3. Paladin - Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Force of Personality*
4. Fighter - Combat Expertise**
5. Fighter
6. Fighter - Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons, Dodge
7. Fighter
8. Fighter - Improved Critical : Slashing Weapons
9. Fighter - Skill Focus: Intimidate
10. Fighter - Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
11. Fighter -
12. Fighter - Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Fighter -
14. Fighter - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15. Fighter - Shield Mastery
16. Fighter - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

*Note: Eat a +1 Cha tome (or better) before taking your third level.
**Note: Eat +1 Int tome (or better) before taking your fourth level.

The chances that have been done since module five are:

Switching Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing to Power Attack.
Switching Iron Will to Force of Personality.
Picking up Cleave and Great Cleave.

Also, I've played a little with the order of feats, nothing major, just place them around to make it less costy if a lot of feats have to be respec'd all at once.

Overall, I'm pretty happy of Cleave and Great Cleave. Both of them, plus a +2 Paralyzing Dwarven Axe of Righteousness, helps a ton at getting mobs to be behave nicely. A +3 Curespewing Dwarven axe of Shattermantle does the same in the middle of a Disco Ball or other CC of the kind. Otherwise, when DPS matters more than crowd-control, Cleave and Great Cleave are turned into AoE DPS. Not totallt insane DPS, but still nice to see all these numbers flying.

As for Power Attack, that is only there to allow me to get Cleave and Great Cleave, I'm really happy to have it already. It knew it was going to be nice for those DPS >> AC moments like beholders, mindflayers and other caster-type mobs, but now I'm really thankful to have it for the first part of The Shroud. With all the Disco Ball floating left and right and the low number of foe you're facing at the same time after the very first fight, having an high AC in there is near useless. So, I turn Power Attack on, take out the best two-hander I can find and start wacking things off as the real goal is too finish these portals off as soon as possible.

I'm not really missing out on GWS:S.

As for Shield Mastery, it was the feat I was looking at, the last module, and asking myself if I should keep it or not. Now, I love it. Some mobs have crazy high to-hit and hit hard. It comes to great use against some red-named where you can hold their aggro, necessit very little healing and avoid tons of damage to the group... and saving the cleric tons of mana. In my opinion, the less healing the cleric use for healing, the more I'm happy. What I really want him to do is Harm, Blade Barrier, Cometfall, buff, etc. Helps much more going through quests faster than any melee DPS.

However, shield blocking all the time would be silly, this is why I got WF and GWF... and no Improved Shield Bashing.

As for saves feats... pondering. I don't know yet what to do with them, if I keep them or not. I can probably drop my saves lower and not being hurt by it. I'll keep checking around me and see what it gives, whtehr or not I keep the feats and drop the Reistance item altogether, drop the feats or drop enhancements... time and research will tell. I'm probably overdoing it right now.

Saving Throws:

Base Saves: +12 +4 +4
Saves from Charisma: +6 +6 +6
Saves from Feats: +0 +2 +0
Aura of Good: +1 +1 +1
Enhanced abilites: +2 +6 +6
Luck bonus: +2 +2 +2
Resistance: +5 +5 +5
Total Saves: +28 +26 +24

With the gear listed, those are my saves. This excludes Greater Heroism and the +4 bonus versus spells from Dwarven Spell Defense. This is too high for nothing, quite sure of that. I'll drop these, not sure of the best way to get it done, yet. It'll depend on how much I can get them down without any penalty.

Skills:

Well, it's easy as any tank : Intimidate, Balance and Jump. In that order.

Keep Intimidate maxed! Then, keep Balance at the highest whole number (ie 9 rather than 9,5). After that, put the rest of your points into Jump. except when taking your two Paladin levels, dump a point into tumble to be able to... well... Tumble then put the rest into Balance. You'll be able to tumble in mithril amor and tower shield if you have a +6 Dex item so...:D

At you next fighter level, max intimidate, but don't increase Jump or Intimidate when taking paladins levels as you'll be wasting skill points.

If you eat a +2 Int tome, UMD would me my choice.

Intimidate breakdown:

+19 Base
+6 Charisma
+2 Luck
+4 Fighter's Intimidate
+15 Helmet of Intimidation
+3 SF: Intimidate
49 Intimidate

Pretty good number, eh? :) Add +4 from Greater Heroism for a total of 53.
For reference: With 50 intimidate, you get the Stormreaver (Elite) on a 2. It takes 53 the pit fiend (Normal) on a 2.

UMD breakdown:

While the original Borror doesn't have UMD, I forsee this might be a very popular choice. Here is what Borror could reach.

9 Base
+6 Charisma
+2 Luck (Head of Good Fortune)
+4 Morale (Greater Heroism)
21 UMD

This is, by itself, enough to use ML 10 race restricted weapon and ML 13 race restricted jewelery and clothing.

Jewelery and clothing UMD DCs are equal to minimum level plus seven.
Weapons and armors are equal to minimum level plus ten.

Now, if Shield Mastery is thrown at the garbage for Skill Focus: UMD, a total of 24 UMD could be reached. That is enough to use all ML 15 jewelry and clothing and ML 14 or lower weapons.

If we add Golden Cartouche (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/GoldenCartouche.jpg) for non-weapon UMD (like scrolls or gear that is not changed while in combat), a total of 27 UMD can be reached. That means 55% success on Raise Dead scrolls. Then, you can factor stuff like Seven Fingered Gloves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/SevenFingeredGloves.jpg) and +6 Cha skills Green Steel Accessory, for a grand total of 35. That'd be Raise Dead scrolls on a 1 and decent success at Heal scrolls.

Hit points:

160 Base
+10 Draconic Vitality
+20 Heroic Durability
+50 Dwarven Toughness
+50 Fighter Toughness
+18 Toughness
+64 Constitution
372 Total

Believe it or not, it's far enough with 59+ AC.

Enhancements:

Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Shield Mastery III
Dwarven Spell Defense II
Dwarven Toughness IV
Fighter Item Defense I
Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II
Fighter Intimidate IV
Fighter Strength II
Fighter Toughness IV
Paladin's Charisma I

But then again, these are more guidelines as enhancements vary a lot depending on the gear you got.
Follower of the Silver Flame is there for Green Steel weapon, since there are no Green Steel axes.

Final note:

Again, in case you didn't realise it yet, I'm open very to talk about my build and gear and all that is related to it.
Just drop by and post or send me a PM. I don't bite. ;)

I'd rather you ask me your questions on this thread, if there are questions you prefer to ask on a PM, go ahead.
Most of the time, the question one would ask me could answer someone else's interrogation. Which is why I'd prefer here. But a PM is fine by me!:)

Borror0

10-13-2007, 07:38 AM

Added UMD as I was asked for it. I thought it might be an interesting feature.

Riot

10-15-2007, 08:59 AM

Again.... This is a Tank.
Good Build.
Still the best Dwarven Tank I've seen.

Line-dog

10-15-2007, 10:20 PM

Borror:

I've grouped with you a few times, though I haven't seen you since the server merge. Among others I play the intimi-rogue (is that an oxymoron?) War (Rog7/Ftr4/Pal3). I don't know if you recall but when I first grouped with you we played intimidate ping-pong for a little bit. It took a while for me to get used to someone else with the build (and mindset) to use imtimidate. I was relieved to have someone that would keep squishies safe while giving me the chance to get my 4D6+2 backstab damage. I'm still shocked how few fighters I group with that understand the value of intimidate.

My guild has seen the light on intimidate and some of our fighters have really saved my Sorc's bacon. With my Borror Intimitank I plan to continue the good work. I see the future of DDO heading in the direction of other MMOs like EverQuest. More than ever I see the need for a high-HP tank that can hold aggro, accompanied by a strong healer, and some DPSers to bring down the bosses.

Glad to see the Borror build is back. I had been ready for my 32pt Dwarven Intimitank but there was no Borror. Thanks for posting it again. I just rolled him up last night.

I had decided with this Pally hybrid I would cut back some on his Charisma and Dex. I made him with 16, 14, 14, 14, 8, 12. You already pointed this out as a viable option. I don't have any tomes to use. I will lose +1 to reflex, and +1 will save; and net gain +1 to my fortification save. I plan on taking Force of Personality in Mod6 to boost my will save by +5 or +6. Also, I like the extra bit of HP, and skill points. Further, I'm going to try to fit in Stunning Blow to help deal with casters and boost my effective CC/DPS a bit. I love stunning blow, and imp trip on my intimirogue, but I will not take imp trip this time around (ok maybe after the cap goes up :) ). Stunning blow with enhancements and a weighted weapon is just sick. My human with Fighter tactics, and a +10 weighted item is almost like having a paralyzer. A dwarf should be crazy. Maybe if I ever get my hands on a paralyzer I will respec the stunning blow to something else. Alsom, after the cap raises I'll try to fit in Power Attack.

My only complaint is . . . why did you take so long! :D

Cheers-

Borror0

10-16-2007, 01:33 AM

I've grouped with you a few times, though I haven't seen you since the server merge. Among others I play the intimi-rogue (is that an oxymoron?) War (Rog7/Ftr4/Pal3). I don't know if you recall but when I first grouped with you we played intimidate ping-pong for a little bit.

Yeah War, I do remember you.:)

In fact, you're still on my friend list. I also remember that ping-pong intimidate "game" we played. Totally changed my views of "two intimitanks in a group is not a good idea". We rocked that quest so bad. The mobs were spending most of their time running betyween the two of us. And when they were not, thet were "hitting" my AC. I say my AC because they never hit me. ;)

I remember those Maze of Madness runs in Gianthold after the great Purge. I also remembered you telling me that you planned on rolling a Dwarven Defender inspired of Borror. I told you, back then, that I planned on posting it back when I had free time but that I wanted to update the build before. I also told you that I saved everything on a Word document and that I'd PM it to you if need be. ;)

It took a while for me to get used to someone else with the build (and mindset) to use imtimidate. I was relieved to have someone that would keep squishies safe while giving me the chance to get my 4D6+2 backstab damage. I'm still shocked how few fighters I group with that understand the value of intimidate.

I am too.

Before rolling an intimitank, I thought that I simply never regonised one. Now,, I know I've never met one. In fact, you're the first other intimidate user I've grouped with. Intimidate used to suck, now it doesn't. This is for this reason we are staring to see more Intimitanks being rolled up: no more "using animation" that made you wait a while before triggering, now it's instant.

My guild has seen the light on intimidate and some of our fighters have really saved my Sorc's bacon. With my Borror Intimitank I plan to continue the good work. I see the future of DDO heading in the direction of other MMOs like EverQuest. More than ever I see the need for a high-HP tank that can hold aggro, accompanied by a strong healer, and some DPSers to bring down the bosses.

Intimidate is the kind of things you can live with... until you taste it. My guildmates from my previous guild, Ophele, really like it. A few rogue from there really miss me! One even said that he might roll an intimitank to save his rogue friends... one he gets the gear.

Same in my new guild, it takes a while to get used to it, but they seem to get used to it and enjoy abusing of it...:rolleyes:

Glad to see the Borror build is back. I had been ready for my 32pt Dwarven Intimitank but there was no Borror. Thanks for posting it again. I just rolled him up last night.

Sorry I kept you waiting, I didn't know I was waited for..:o

The only thing that pushed me to post it was that Blazer asked me a few questions about it and that Grenfell refered someone to me for the kind of build she was looknig for!:eek: So, I said that maybe a few could use of my knowledge, if we can call it that way. I'm surprised by the positive response I'm getting since I've post it!:eek:

I had decided with this Pally hybrid I would cut back some on his Charisma and Dex. I made him with 16, 14, 14, 14, 8, 12. You already pointed this out as a viable option. I don't have any tomes to use. I will lose +1 to reflex, and +1 will save; and net gain +1 to my fortification save. I plan on taking Force of Personality in Mod6 to boost my will save by +5 or +6. Also, I like the extra bit of HP, and skill points.

Sounds solid to me.

Further, I'm going to try to fit in Stunning Blow to help deal with casters and boost my effective CC/DPS a bit. I love stunning blow, and imp trip on my intimirogue, but I will not take imp trip this time around (ok maybe after the cap goes up :) ). Stunning blow with enhancements and a weighted weapon is just sick. My human with Fighter tactics, and a +10 weighted item is almost like having a paralyzer. A dwarf should be crazy. Maybe if I ever get my hands on a paralyzer I will respec the stunning blow to something else. Also, after the cap raises I'll try to fit in Power Attack.

Don't, a paralyser is not a good weapon. However, Stunning Blow is an amazing feat. It adds DPS and is, like you said yourself, really good CC on casters which are Intimitanks' real pain. If you go for Stunning Blow, you might want to consider going Blunt spec'ed and grab a Hammer of the Leaden Clouds (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/HammeroftheLeadenClouds.jpg). I'm not the kind of builder to say: "This is the ultimate build, don't change anything or you'll be gimped.:mad: " I'm saying: "This is a template, customise it how you please. I can help you with my experience and knowledge. Don't be shy and report the results of your experiment.:) "

However, you'll probably be a bit tight on enhancements, you might not be as good as a dedicated specialist, but you'll do fine. Just don't waste all your APs in Dwarven tactics. ;) Lastly, Power Attack seems a waste. You'll be tanking 95% of the time at least, a feat that is useful less than 5% of the time isn't worth it to me.

If I were you, I'd drop Weapon Specialisations to make them fit in. +1 damage per hit? Not even noticable. :) Or Shield Mastery, which one you'll think that will be less useful to you.

My only complaint is . . . why did you take so long! :D

hehe, sorry again. School, girlfriend, friends, wiki, DDO... not much time to write a 3-4 hours long post!;)

Glad you like it, if you got any question, don't hesistate.

We're now 4 badass Dwarves on Thelanis!:eek: :cool:

Borror0

10-16-2007, 01:42 AM

Update:

Changed Improved Shield Bash for Lightining Reflexes.

Also added:

If there is any feat I'd swap-out, it'd be Shield Mastery or Greater Weapon Specialisation. I like them, but they are the less useful ones right now. If you would really like to add another feat when trying to roll a Dwarven Defender, I'd swap out one of these two. :)

Riekan

10-17-2007, 10:19 AM

Borror0

10-17-2007, 11:11 AM

Borror0,
You mention swapping Iron Will for Force of Personality once Mod 6 hits. Are you going to swap Bullheaded for Skill Fucus: Intimidate as well? I'm not sure if the +1 Will save will still stack. I think it should, but am not sure how they will implement things. Has anyone read anything about it?

As of last news, Bullheaded and Iron Will stacked. I don't see why Force of Personality wouldn't either.

With 50 intimidate when I get level 16, I won't really more so I don't see myself doing that in the close future. :)

But if doesn't, that's what I'll do.

juniorpfactors

10-17-2007, 12:03 PM

Heiken....lvl 8.... ahhh you need to power lvl;) hurry

Borror0

10-17-2007, 07:04 PM

Heiken....lvl 8.... ahhh you need to power lvl;) hurry

hehe, yeah.

Working on that. But I've also got to play Necro so..:rolleyes:

Riekan

10-17-2007, 07:27 PM

Borror0

10-17-2007, 08:45 PM

I have a capped intimitank, mostly defensive, 8 fighter/4 paladin/2 rogue. While I like having evasion and my UMD is rock solid at 38 buffed, I am finding that I don't have high enough stats or feats to hold my own in combat and maintain agro during the last 4 seconds of the intimidate timer.

So, even though I have tons of raid loot and tomes on him, I find myself wanting to try to rebuild him as a more offensive minded intimitank. I'm really interested in your build. I want to be self reliant, and the Paladin wands/Lay on Hands/Saves looks like it will work extremely well.

Well, you told me in your PM that your build loosely based on Maldini's Kriegg build.

While Kriegg is a good tank, it sacrifices a lot of offense to be really defensive. He can raise and use heal scrolls, but he put all his points into Charisma, leaving him a bunch of points behind. He is much more of a support character than Riott and Borror, that's for sure. But let's not lie to ourselves, while Borror's DPS will be higher, it is still not enough to drag the aggro from a 42 Str barbarian Critical Rage II or a trigger-happy sorcerer.

However, if what you're looking for is higher DPS to contribute more in combat, I think you'll find what you're looking for here.

My first question is why the 15 dex with a tome? Is it just so that you only need a +5 dex item? I'm thinking of going 14 dex so I can start with 14 Int. This gets my Combat Expertise without a tome and an extra skill point per level for UMD. I have +5 MFP RR Elf/Drow (Diff 20) that I'm going to want to wear on this toon.

Well, I'm going for 15 Dex +1 Tome to get the max of my Max Dex bonus from Daggertooth while wearing Madstone Boots.

Also, going with an odd stat allows you to take advantages from a +3 tome, and later, a +5 tome, if you ever get one. Keep in mind that +X ability items will be even from now on. +6 is the max right now, and then, once epic levels are reached, it'll always be even numbers as the highest item, always.

It's more of a preference. If you think that the UMD is worth it, go ahead.
It'll not gimp the build for one less AC. Riott's got 14 base Dex and he does fine.

I'm going to try to fit in SF:UMD, but am having a difficult time deciding what feat to drop, maybe Lightning Reflexes... I don't want to drop Shield Mastery for the times where you do shield up, in doorways and such. Also, if you drop the feat, then you may as well drop the enhancements too, and then you've got a bunch of stuff to recalculate. I can't take it instead of GWS since SF:UMD is not a fighter feat. Which ever one I drop, I'll probably pick it back up at 15.

I'd drop GWS, here's how:

At level 6, take Dodge as fighter feat, SF: UMD as normal feat. Take WS:Slashing at level 14.

As for Con/Cha, are you really satisfied with a 10 Con? My other intimitank started with a 10 Con, and I sometimes find it lacking. I really don't want to drop Cha either though, so I'll have to ponder that for awhile. Cha to 12 to push Con to 14 seems like it should be a no brainer, but losing 1 Intimidate, 1 UMD and 1 to all saves is a lot to give up.

The real question is: How much AC and HP did your previous intimitank had?

Borror walk around with 269 HP and 55 AC. (without Chattering ring..:( with a +1 tome to Constitution.)

Compare that to your current Intimitank. I'd think that Borror had more HP than your previous tank since you took rogue levels and that Borror is a dwarf! Honeslty, if you find the HP lacking, I'd drop Dwarven Shield Mastery III, that'd get you 15 more HP from Dwarven/Fighter Toughness. Also, the helm slot will be free as of mod 6, you could have Minos Legend (http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z167/TheCataclysm/DDOitems/MinosLegens.jpg) in your helm slot for 16 more HP (well, 18 more in mod 6...)!

But, to answer your question, yes, I am happy with my total HP. I'll try to get it up, of course, but I find that is enough!!:)

Lastly, drop Cha to 12 would get you 16 Con... or 12 Cha and 14 int... ;)

Hope this helps!:)

Borror0

PS: I'll add it to the OP, but if you got a question. I'd rather you ask me your questions on this thread, if there are questions you prefer to ask on a PM, go ahead.
Most of the time, the question one would ask me could answer someone else's interrogation. Which is why I'd prefer here. But a PM is fine by me!:)

Line-dog

10-18-2007, 12:38 AM

If you go for Stunning Blow, you might want to consider going Blunt spec'ed and grab a Hammer of the Leaden Clouds (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/HammeroftheLeadenClouds.jpg).

That _is_ nice. I haven't come across that one. The Tenderizer (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Tenderizer.jpg) is a sweet raid drop for stunning too. War has a 5% weighted (+10 to the stunning blow DC) mace but he doesn't yet have the Tenderizer. A cleric in my guild (Myday) has it, and I'm very jealous of her right now. :p

Borror0

10-18-2007, 12:46 AM

That _is_ nice. I haven't come across that one. The Tenderizer (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Tenderizer.jpg) is a sweet raid drop for stunning too. War has a 5% weighted (+10 to the stunning blow DC) mace but he doesn't yet have the Tenderizer. A cleric in my guild (Myday) has it, and I'm very jealous of her right now. :p

Yeah, well... the Tenderiser is a pretty common drop. I'd give you the one I've sold to the Vendor if I could have trade it.

I think one of my guildy wouldn't mind giving one either. He only has two hands on is non-battle cleric. What the hell would he do with three?!!?

Anyway, you get the point. They are a pretty common drop and not really useful to most ppl.:)

Quick edit: Hammer of the Leaden Cloud is really cheap on AH. Check under Warhammer, seen it often with like 100k gp buyout.

Shade

10-20-2007, 03:03 AM

Does anyone actually play these kinda builds at high level?

I mean the concept is cool and all.. I tried making a character like that too thinking it'd be fun.. But its just not fun.

I mean I can't remember the a time when someone went - hey good job standing there taking a beating forever.. Because thats what happens, even with all the ac in the world - you get hit.

And a melee without power attack vs todays high lvl stuff is a joke.. You'd straight fail to kill many mobs, and ones you could actually kill would take you a week to do so, by the time you might kill one - even if you had insane AC, he'd have rolled enough 20s to hit you several times...

I dunno, just boring to me.. Standing around blocking and intimidating, hoping your allies do a good job because you just cant contribute much.

Actually i think I did group with one the other night in lich preraid elite.. He took more dmg then me and ended up with 1 kill... I watched him try to kill one of those gargoyle jugernauts for a bit, then i killed the other one, and 5 other mobs, then went back to check - the gaygoyle was still full health and he was nearly dead.

Borror0

10-20-2007, 03:34 AM

Does anyone actually play these kinda builds at high level?

Yes, my guildies appreciate my job, trust me.

I mean the concept is cool and all.. I tried making a character like that too thinking it'd be fun.. But its just not fun.

Not surprising Shade. You're a DPS guy. Your two mains are a Sorcerer and a Barbarian.
It's like if you'd enjoy being a CC bard, not your type.

I mean I can't remember the a time when someone went - hey good job standing there taking a beating forever.. Because thats what happens, even with all the ac in the world - you get hit.

Sure, 5% of the time... or 95%? It does a great difference, trust me.
I'd be on your server, I'd show you.

Can't remember the last time you heard "Hey thanks for standing there swinging making my healing job easier letting have more mana for other spells, allowing casters to cast more nukes and less CC and helping these 10 AC barbarian to stay alive"? Well, bad thing for your clerics.

That's why you always run with two, eh? To keep you alive?

And a melee without power attack vs todays high lvl stuff is a joke.. You'd straight fail to kill many mobs, and ones you could actually kill would take you a week to do so, by the time you might kill one - even if you had insane AC, he'd have rolled enough 20s to hit you several times...

I hit for 1d10+22 plus 4d6 (must of my weapons are +2 Flaming/Shocking/Frost Greater Bane). Not that bad. I don't see msyelf as a no-DPS tank.
Again, I'm not a barbarian, but I think I hit great.

I dunno, just boring to me.. Standing around blocking and intimidating, hoping your allies do a good job because you just cant contribute much.

I do contribute, I mitigate the damage. I contribute DPS.
I'm not that far from any one-handed fighting tank. A paladin does as much damage as me, however, he does not absorb as much damage as me.

Of course, mobs do it me on a 20. However, most tanks nowaday gets hit 80-95% of the time. I got to 5%. If you don't understand the advantage... you've got a problem. Less damage means more mana for the cleric.

Actually i think I did group with one the other night in lich preraid elite.. He took more dmg then me and ended up with 1 kill... I watched him try to kill one of those gargoyle jugernauts for a bit, then i killed the other one, and 5 other mobs, then went back to check - the gaygoyle was still full health and he was nearly dead.

Where you seeing any Yellow symbols above mobs' head. If not, he wasn't.
He also seemed undergeared and/or gimped. I can swing at the gargoyles big time. with less healing than nayone you can think... and I've got all of them on my back... you'd have... one? Maybe two?

Trust me, I can hold myself.
When there is no mob caster, potions are enough for me most of the time.

If he was almost dead, he probably has < 45 AC or something, I walk around with much more than that and I'm far from a manasponge/slot waste.

Give Riott a try, you are on the same server now!

Now Shade, I really appreciate you come to my thread to bring my build down.
Sadly, you fears are unfounded. If you do not belive in that type of build, then you can:

Make one and see.
Play with a good player that has one and see.
Ignore it and live in ignorance.

I know you value DPS a lot, sadly, AC is not dead. There are many ways to get a quest done quick.

Hvymetal

10-20-2007, 08:28 AM

Also if he was taking much more damage than you were it could also mean he was doing his job, i.e. keeping the aggro off of you so a cleric is not having to keep an eye glued to the barbs health bar at all times, making it so the cleric has to really only focus on 1 person and allowing you to get those big sexy kill count numbers....:D

mehlinda

10-21-2007, 12:14 PM

Hey B,

I'm currently testing your build on Thelanis and am leaning towards swallowing the tomes as I told you I might. Lucky you were not actually using ink in your reply to Shade as it appeared by his post that he either never read your build enough to understand its purpose or just doesn't get it ( or both) and why waste all that wonderful ink? I took my Lil Borroro to tangleroot today and solo'd it at level 4 all the way with no recalls or deaths and only was forced to drink pots during melee a few times. This is wearing +3 mithral fp and +2 tower so my ac is nowhere near what it will be of course. Anyway it was easy. later while 4 manning same I was making great use of the intimidate and the other dwarf in the party was having it easy flanking and not getting hit. I took very little damage. It will take some doing to aquire all the gear you recommend in order to reach the true potential but I am having a blast so far. By the way, my main was normally a heal-bot type cleric, but i have a nuking sorc and a pure dps fighter as well as a 2wep fighter ranger and this character seems to be the one I will play right behind my cleric so maybe my sorc and the rest will not see as much action as they used to. great job.. great fun build. Thx !!!

Borror0

10-21-2007, 12:37 PM

I'm currently testing your build on Thelanis and am leaning towards swallowing the tomes as I told you I might.

Glad to hear that, glad you like it. :)

Lucky you were not actually using ink in your reply to Shade as it appeared by his post that he either never read your build enough to understand its purpose or just doesn't get it ( or both) and why waste all that wonderful ink?

Shade tend to write a lot, but not read a lot.
He posts on a build, try to get it down, but never replies back. He did the same thing on a rogue thread where he said rogues were dealing 10% of Barbarian's damage. I think you get my point.
He is obviously there to help us prove how uber we are!

I mean, no one would brag about how uber his build is, so Shade comes by and tell us that our build sucks so we have to tell him how uber we are and how.:rolleyes:

Thanks Shade.

I took my Lil Borroro to tangleroot today and solo'd it at level 4 all the way with no recalls or deaths and only was forced to drink pots during melee a few times. This is wearing +3 mithral fp and +2 tower so my ac is nowhere near what it will be of course. Anyway it was easy. later while 4 manning same I was making great use of the intimidate and the other dwarf in the party was having it easy flanking and not getting hit. I took very little damage.

Yeah, I did the same thing back then with Borror. It's really great to only get hit on a 20.

Sad part is, you always get it (5% of the time), so you still have to drink potions.:( But, it really makes questing easier.

It will take some doing to aquire all the gear you recommend in order to reach the true potential but I am having a blast so far. By the way, my main was normally a heal-bot type cleric, but i have a nuking sorc and a pure dps fighter as well as a 2wep fighter ranger and this character seems to be the one I will play right behind my cleric so maybe my sorc and the rest will not see as much action as they used to.

hehe, good thing. An Intimitank simply cannot be an unplayed alt, or he's effectiveness will be greatly reduced. Let's face it, this is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more gear dependant than a Barbarian, but it's so much fun to laugh at those mobs and say "Can hit be, eh? Try harder!!:D"

Like I said to Shade, it's a matter of playstyle. Some people can handle support, some don't. And trust me, this one get a lot of action for a "support" build. And he can manage decent DPS!!

Again, glad you like it Mehl.:)

PS: Mind PMing the name of your character?;) Could always use an intimitank on my nuker.:D

mehlinda

10-21-2007, 02:19 PM

Borror0

10-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Well, the thing Shade is missing is that kill counts do not tell the whole story. You could lead in kills consistently with a pure rogue if you waited till every monster was down to 1/4 life and hit him from behind with a sneak attack and nobody would see the work that everyone else did to take the things life down 3/4.

Yeah, or Shade could steal loads of kills with his Glancing Blows... or the caster could weaken all the mobs with Fireball and the tanks would deal the last blow.

I agree killcounts are not the best example, at all.

We had a rogue named Viki in Guardians who was infamous for kill counts. Big deal. If you wade in , intimidate and draw all the aggro and people wail away from the flank with all those bonuses and then right as you lose aggro your timer resets and you grab them right back, you are like 3 members of the party in one.

This (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1398179&postcount=17) might interest you then.

The cleric in our 4 man TR run musta been a little bored most of the time. I realize Tr is not a great test of the build but its where I was today. I'll let you know as progress rolls along how a complete newcomer to this style of play is doing.

Sounds good. I'll be please to learn abouot your experience.

I've already had a cleric complaining that we took not enough damage. Some party members took their armor off and fought naked... the cleric barely saw a difference...:rolleyes:

But yeah, there are some quests that are much easier on you. Anything caster-low is a breeze. When there are casters, it gets a bit harder if you move resist-less. So ask for them, you need them when you got the aggro of 5+ casters at the same time. They won't, however, succeed to land any Will-based, Fort-based spells. But sadly, most Reflex saves are save for half, so you still take damage.

Meanwhile, the concept of team oriented play-style and its real effect doesn't have to be appreciated by those who just want to hack and slash to make it valid or enjoyable. It doesn't sound sexy when you first hear it maybe but it's reall a lot tougher than flat out just beating things down. It requires some planning and practice. I think the timing on the intimidate is the hardest thing to get down so far.

The timing on intimidate becomes like a second nature before you reach level 14, unless you powerleveled like crazy. I took my time on Borror and did a few quests for favor, so I might have had a few hours of questing more, but I doubt you'll not get used to it by level 14.

I've came back from a month break of no gaming (hurray for RL!!) and was surprised that I still knew how to play the build, so forgetting it is not an issue. It's like riding a bicycle, you never really forget.

A_Sheep

10-27-2007, 12:50 PM

What do you think about dropping axe attack II for Axe Damage I (and have a few AP leftover)?

It seems your to-hit will be in the mid 30's with CE on.

Borror0

10-27-2007, 08:42 PM

What do you think about dropping axe attack II for Axe Damage I (and have a few AP leftover)?

That could be a possibility.

It seems your to-hit will be in the mid 30's with CE on.

Really? I'm getting low 30's.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

11-08-2007, 07:43 PM

I like everything you've done with this build, personally, including the changes you made. However, I would seriously consider dropping the axe attack II for Axe Damage. You DEFINATELY was Power attack. No doubt you will hit almost every time at level 14 so you want the damage. On my dwarven Maldini variant, when I use power attack the damage output is just sick. Its major damage when wielding a two hander, when you just need to go on the offensive. However if you are playing turtle or want that ac, turn that power attack off so you can make your hits count, especially if you are using stat damage/paralyzer/vorpal or anytime TO HIT means more than total damage.

Borror0

11-08-2007, 09:16 PM

However, I would seriously consider dropping the axe attack II for Axe Damage.

When you do the math is becomes much more obvious!

5% of 30 = 1,5 damage
So, it's more than +1 damage... but it's cheaper. So it really comes to cost vs reward.

But +1 to-hit is, sometimes, more than more damage.

You DEFINATELY was Power attack.

No, I don't.

I cannot have both up Combat Expterise and Power Attack at the same time, and even if I could, my accuracy would drop soo low it'd not even be funny.

I'd get miss over miss, hehe. Not really interesting, wouldn't it? :)

I simply cannot even think of a quest where I'd drop CE all the time. Of course it'd be nice against doomsphere or the Abbot as they got no melee attack and you're going for straight DPS pretty much, but that is way to situational for now. I don't say later, when I get a feat and don't really know what to do of it, but I'm not there yet. AC being the main focus of this build, it is what I must but in priority. When you have 100% of the aggro on you, you can drop quick if you're AC is too low, or if your saves are worth a Masterwork Club.

DPS is always nice, I try to get it as high as possible, but it is not my main focus, it comes after keeping myself and others alive.

No doubt you will hit almost every time at level 14 so you want the damage. On my dwarven Maldini variant, when I use power attack the damage output is just sick. Its major damage when wielding a two hander, when you just need to go on the offensive.

Power Attack is a no brainer of any two-hander, simply too powerful to say no.

On a one-handed weapon, it's less powerful, still is a worth a feat, but not an as high priority as for a two-handed weapon. Of course, when I need DPS, it's because it is not time for AC at all. So I turn CE off and weild a Cloudburst so I would take full benefit of Power Attack at those moments... but those moments are too few to be worth it... yet.

I know you knew that I wouldn't have it on when turtling up... but I'm turteling up almost all the time.

And I'd keep Axe Attack II as long as I can, but if I ever end up short 2 APs, I'd swap it out for Axe Damage I.

maddmatt70

11-08-2007, 09:43 PM

Somebody kept this post alive.. First, of all nice raid loot - with the new raid loot rules do you really think a new tank could remotely get this level of raid loot. Try posting your guy naked without gear...

I would second Shade's basic observation and furthermore say that this build is so mod2.. By the time your halfway through a quest Shade is already onto the next one and looting those quest's chests. The fundamental reason why this type of build is unecessary is because of the healing in this game. Healing is so overpowered if you really think about it. Clerics can use metamagics, scrolls, wands, manapots in a never ending supply of high powered mana and arcanes can supply the displacement. I personaly have been rooting for a firewall nerf to go along with the cloudkill nerf, but I can not deny that there should probably be a healing nerf as well. Yes, I am aware of the philosophy of kill them so fast that you take no damage, but if you got the cleric safety net behind you coupled with arcanes 50% displacement who cares about ac, intimidate or any of that drivel....

Borror0

11-08-2007, 10:48 PM

First, of all nice raid loot - with the new raid loot rules do you really think a new tank could remotely get this level of raid loot. Try posting your guy naked without gear...

I'm not even denying this.

I've said it many times before, this build, or any intimitank, is really gear-dependant. Your tank needs his +5 Mith FP, +5 Mith TS, Chaosguardes and Chattering Ring. His effectiveness comes from AC, AC comes from gear. This build isn't for a new player, I'll never recommend this to a new player, or to anyone who plays very few. You need the loot to back it up, or you'll be a burden. Of course, a barbarian can contribute with a Greataxe, a +4 Str item, +4 Con item and Heavy fortification, but this isn't a barbarian. Fighters are more gear-dependant, it's a fact. Understand it and move on.

If we'd all play barbarians, the game would be pretty linear, wouldn't it? Other class can contribute in different ways, this build can increase others' DPS in so many ways. No CC, more nuking. Less healing, more nuking/insta-killing.

Of course this nears gear to be effective, but this does not make of it any lesser.

I would second Shade's basic observation and furthermore say that this build is so mod2.. By the time your halfway through a quest Shade is already onto the next one and looting those quest's chests.

Sorry, no, just no.

With a barbarian you use mostly CC, with a Intimitank, you use nuking. It goes at about the same speed, if not faster.

The fundamental reason why this type of build is unecessary is because of the healing in this game. Healing is so overpowered if you really think about..

While this build isn't necessary... no melee class is necessary. And this build makes cleric less needed.

I've done countless pre-raid runs with only a bard as healer... because I was sucking up the damage. Try to do that with a few barbrians, it'll be much harder... if not impossible (I do not dare impossible as I have yet to cap a barbarian). I'll not emphasis this enough, you need none to little CC with a Intimitank in your group, barbarians need more... or lots of Heal scrolls. The Intimitank will let the sorc to go trigger-happy and have fun.

Your a bass player, not the lead guitar. You won't lead the kill count, people won't thank you for taking less damage... fact is, you'll be probably the one taking most damage (if you don't, you don't play well or others are zerging ahead). You won't see big red numbers flying left and right, but you'll contribute, you make other better. Is a wizard that buff and CC any lesser than a nuking sorc? That's what you're comparing in the end.

CC and buffs vs DPS

Intimidate IS crowd-control. You reduce the total damage the group is taking, saying this build isn't good at all is like saying that CC is no more.

maddmatt70

11-08-2007, 11:27 PM

I am sorry Borro Zrro, but the high end dps whether it is barbarian or other high end dps build does get through the quest quicker. I don't know what type of tanks/players/casters you run with, but high dps trumps in terms of speed a lower dps anyday. Axer is right if you have quick killing tanks and especially with a lovely bard the party does not take as much damage because the monsters are dead.. The defensive tank is not a bass guitar, but a crutch in a truely dps party because why not have 6 party members which slice the enemies to bits before they can respond in kind. Its blitzkrieg baby - that is the strategy. In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality. Only hope is mod6 bro or you can just keep living in the world you live in.

I have been the sole healer on my bard with shade before, but in general I have run many quests with many barbarians or other dps tanks as sole healer (25+ scale runs, etc.) so I don't know if you want some sort of award for this? Healing is overpowered and is a very underrated aspect of this game. If you got a cleric try running around with quicken spell and empower healing with 100 heal scrolls and rez scrolls and tell me if you couldn't heal to full somebody in the blink of an eye with a cure crit or heal spell or even a cure mod on the squishes .. Scrolls are cheap now in relative terms to absolute money and if anything hardcore clerics have gravitated to the next thing mana pots which are actually somewhat reasonably to purchase now.. lol....

Borror0

11-08-2007, 11:51 PM

In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality.

AC has no place anymore but had place in mod 2?

Sorry, I cannot get myself to see why. If they hit on a 20 before and they do now, what's the difference?

Of course, barbarians weren't as interesting back then as they are now, Sword & Board DPS was nerfed by the metagame, but I cannot see why the Tank is no more.

Of course healing is overly available, so what? Axer needs a dedicated healer, I don't. That was my point.

I have been the sole healer on my bard with shade before, but in general I have run many quests with many barbarians or other dps tanks as sole healer (25+ scale runs, etc.) so I don't know if you want some sort of award for this?

I need no award, but what I meant is that if my character is good enough to allow a group to only require a full healer, then he isn't a gimp.

Axer can do the same? Great, his character is not a gimp either.

Mhykke

11-09-2007, 04:10 AM

I have both types of characters, DPS barb, and sword and board tank....

You're both right, and you're both mischaracterizing the other side a tiny bit.

Quests go by pretty fast with either. W/ the barb, stuff gets cut up fast. A dedicated healer on the barb isn't needed, since others are taking little damage due to the aggro the barb is getting, and the quickness in which mobs are killed.

With the tank, the cleric can be freer to blow through some mana offensive casting. I do think you guys are mischaracterizing the tank a little bit. It's not as though the tank goes into every single fight, intimidates, and shield bashes. The tank goes in, throws the intimidate, and then swings away. Shield bashing isn't a big part of it at all.

The 2 types of characters work great together, also. The intimitank throws intimidate, the barb kills without taking hardly any damage.

They're both great types of characters to have separately, and together.

Borror0

11-09-2007, 04:23 AM

Shield bashing isn't a big part of it at all.

I hope not, I've taken ISB out...;)

The 2 types of characters work great together, also. The intimitank throws intimidate, the barb kills without taking hardly any damage.

They're both great types of characters to have separately, and together.

Thanks Mhykke, that was my point.

Barbs are great, but that doesn't mean that the rest sucks.:)

Riot

11-09-2007, 09:05 AM

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

Hvymetal

11-09-2007, 01:07 PM

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.
QmotherFnT

Or,

QFT

maddmatt70

11-09-2007, 02:28 PM

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

Yeah, I have run with you riott once or twice. I was on my cleric - I was not that agressive because I wanted to appraise your style which is effective enough, but still would not lead to out dpsing a pack of rabid dpsers. A: You assume that you and 5 rogues can perform coordinated attacks against multiple enemies and B: more fundamentally that a rogue could out dps a high dps machine when they get sneak damage all the time. High dps machine can also be for instance your two weapon fighting rangers or fighters, some battle bards, etc. You have obviously run with Maldini a few times as he is/was in your guild. Can you honestly say that you and 5 rogues could out dps 6 maldinis much less 6 axers... By the time you and the rogues get in your respective positions the mobs are already dead by the 6 axer group..

I actually think they will make superior two weapon fighting and superior two handed fighting require bab 16 this would lead to straight barbs either to take a level of fighter or do less dps possibly then some other classes. These things vary from mod to mod right now and especially in the gianthold the barbarian reigned, but in the next mod that might not be the case...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

11-09-2007, 02:33 PM

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot. I have a Dwarven fighter variant of Maldini's barbarian build. I am a weapon master. I lead in kills in most parties Im in, even against some of the best Ghallanda has to offer. BUT GUESS WHAT? Nobody else cares :) And I'm smart enough to know this. I party lead 95% of the time, and of course I'd like to finish a quest fast, but never at the expense of my other party members. I play for MY PARTY AS WELL as for myself. As party lead I want to deal with EACH players pros and cons to solve a quest, each night I play, enhancing not only the entire party's fun factor, but mine as well. If it takes 10 minutes longer but we die less and EVERYBODY GETS TO EXCEL, I'd rather it be that way. If I was in a quest we needed to create choke points, I'm sorry but I'd rather have Borror on my team blocking that doorway. His ability to take hits are huge in that type of quest, and let the cleric and casters focus on other enemies from a safer distance. Now when we need to just charge ahead, I'd probably want you up ahead busting faces :)

Point is this game is too situational to say you are a "better build" because your team of you and five rogues can beat a team of six ac based barbs, it just doesn't matter. This isnt DC vs Marvel! I think Borror is a daym good build, as well as yours. Both builds are superior to most we encounter in DDOdom anyway, and I recommend both builds highly.

Now, Wonder Twin powers, activate!

maddmatt70

11-09-2007, 02:51 PM

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot. I have a Dwarven fighter variant of Maldini's barbarian build. I am a weapon master. I lead in kills in most parties Im in, even against some of the best Ghallanda has to offer. BUT GUESS WHAT? Nobody else cares :) And I'm smart enough to know this. I party lead 95% of the time, and of course I'd like to finish a quest fast, but never at the expense of my other party members. I play for MY PARTY AS WELL as for myself. As party lead I want to deal with EACH players pros and cons to solve a quest, each night I play, enhancing not only the entire party's fun factor, but mine as well. If it takes 10 minutes longer but we die less and EVERYBODY GETS TO EXCEL, I'd rather it be that way. If I was in a quest we needed to create choke points, I'm sorry but I'd rather have Borror on my team blocking that doorway. His ability to take hits are huge in that type of quest, and let the cleric and casters focus on other enemies from a safer distance. Now when we need to just charge ahead, I'd probably want you up ahead busting faces :)

Point is this game is too situational to say you are a "better build" because your team of you and five rogues can beat a team of six ac based barbs, it just doesn't matter. This isnt DC vs Marvel! I think Borror is a daym good build, as well as yours. Both builds are superior to most we encounter in DDOdom anyway, and I recommend both builds highly.

Now, Wonder Twin powers, activate!

Yeah I hear you man.. It is about the fun in the end, but the game is slanted toward groups that can get quests done faster that is just the way it goes. Am I going to take the ultimate speed party into each dungeon - basically mass charm everything, haste so the party is faster then the charmed monsters and drop mass aoe kills at the end for whatever is left - no that is not fun. Do these guys have effective builds. Yes. Are they dependent on other party members to get things done quickly yes? As Riott points out 5 rogues and him - I did not see him say 5 other tanks and him..

Riot

11-09-2007, 02:54 PM

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot.
My post wasn't about Riott Vs. the B-man. geesh.
Get a grip. B-man plus 5 Rogues > 6 Barbarians.

but still would not lead to out dpsing a pack of rabid dpsers.
Only IF, the quest you run is so low that mobs will die in 2-3 hits. And incoming damage is so insignificant.

A: You assume that you and 5 rogues can perform coordinated attacks against multiple enemies
Not an assumption.
One intimidate allows Every single rogue to sneak attack any mob who has the "intimidated" icon over their head.
Dual wielding Rogues with and extra +7d6 per hit, not to mention standard weapon damage, out damage even the best DPS Barbs.

And you have to know, being experienced, that intimidating is Not that hard when done well.

I've been in these groups before. If you haven't seen it. Then basically you just haven't seen it. But the numbers are staggering.

It's like watching the 6 sorcerer groups go to town til they run out of Mana.

B: more fundamentally that a rogue could out dps a high dps machine when they get sneak damage all the time. High dps machine can also be for instance your two weapon fighting rangers or fighters, some battle bards, etc.
Sure, I love DPS barbs. And rangers and bards ect..... But the fact is, the dual wielding rogue build is leaps and bounds above them all. +7D6 per hit is nothing to laugh off. And it's Only getting higher every two levels.

You have obviously run with Maldini a few times as he is/was in your guild. Can you honestly say that you and 5 rogues could out dps 6 maldinis much less 6 axers... By the time you and the rogues get in your respective positions the mobs are already dead by the 6 axer group.. Yes... and so can he. I've had Maldini and Tegra (DPS rogue) in the same raid, and watched Tegra out kill maldini and then some. Why? Because he played "follow the Intimitank" and I did my best to set him up.

It's not about "getting into position". It's about following the leader.
Follow the Tank, attack stuff behind him.

I think at level 10 we ran Temepest Spine in 18 minutes on Elite, (At level 10 mind you) using this method with rogues for DPS. Killing everything in our path. This is actually a very old discussion.

The reason Rogues are the Kings of DPS, is Only because of the Intimitank.
It's the only class who can snatch agro, keep mobs in place, and not end up a pile of goo.

Riot

11-09-2007, 02:57 PM

As Riott points out 5 rogues and him - I did not see him say 5 other tanks and him.

Hey, I'm pretty Keen on the 5 AoE'ers Plus and Intimitank too.... There's two ways to run this coin.
But the point being put forth was to challenge a group of 6 melee DPSers (Barbs)..... So Ii figured melee would be the way to do it.

Ahhh, Sebilis AoE pulls... those were the days!!!

Can ya tell I played a Monk?

Twerpp

11-09-2007, 03:12 PM

Youre right about that Riot, I use intimidate a lot mostly out of laziness I hate chasing mobs who bee-line for casters and clerics when I can just hotkey a button and voila, "come get some mofos". Anyway pure rogues will absolutely love you when they are getting 100% sneaks and zero aggro. Casters will love it when you wrap 20 mobs up into a nice little package for a nuke or mass CC. Clerics will love it when he has a ton of mana to play with since mobs are only interesting in hurting the person with 50 plus AC plenty of HP and killer saves.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

11-09-2007, 03:21 PM

Hey, I'm pretty Keen on the 5 AoE'ers Plus and Intimitank too.... There's two ways to run this coin.
But the point being put forth was to challenge a group of 6 melee DPSers (Barbs)..... So Ii figured melee would be the way to do it.

Ahhh, Sebilis AoE pulls... those were the days!!!

Can ya tell I played a Monk?

You are talking about power-gaming, your world may only include speed running, and thats fine. Im guilty of that at times as well. But thats not 90% of DDOdom, so its YOU who needs to take that grip. Most of us want a fun party filled with old freinds, new freinds, and good times.... That in essence is what Dungeons and Dragons was and still is built around. Talent will get us through the quests, and I live to ADVENTURE... however, once new content doesnt feel new anymore, then its time to speed it up and dont dilly-dally. However, it would get boring for me if ALL I DID was speed runs.

I dont think we truly disagree here, since you are a great player Riot, but dont tell me to get a grip because your way is not the better way, its JUST YOUR WAY.

Riot

11-09-2007, 03:35 PM

You are talking about power-gaming, your world may only include speed running, and thats fine. Im guilty of that at times as well. But thats not 90% of DDOdom, so its YOU who needs to take that grip. Most of us want a fun party filled with old freinds, new freinds, and good times.... That in essence is what Dungeons and Dragons was and still is built around. Talent will get us through the quests, and I live to ADVENTURE... however, once new content doesnt feel new anymore, then its time to speed it up and dont dilly-dally. However, it would get boring for me if ALL I DID was speed runs.

I dont think we truly disagree here, since you are a great player Riot, but dont tell me to get a grip because your way is not the better way, its JUST YOUR WAY.

No i'm telling you to get a grip because I added a counter point to someones "power gaming point", and you're all over me like a bum on a dollar accusing me of being a power trip happy uber to the 9 leetist.

Back off....

My world is something you don't know about. Don't try to guess.
Have I speed run? sure. Have I power gamed? Sure.

have I run every quest in the game? yep, on elite except the obvious one.

I didn't say "my way" this or that. You've taken what I said so far out of context and jumped on the horse without the saddle.

Dude, go back and read again. My whole point was simply a counter point. Not "how to beat DDO the Riot method".

Geesus, sometimes I think you guys jsut want to argue for arguing sake so you make stuff up that people say.

maddmatt70

11-09-2007, 03:41 PM

It's not about "getting into position". It's about following the leader.
Follow the Tank, attack stuff behind him.

The statement above is at the core of my argument. Why follow a slower tank when your faster then that tank and then when you get there to the combat - yes you do kill things in a couple of swings which is often before that tank arrives on the scene. Lets just say if I were to ever make an intimitank he would have to have some levels of barb in him for the speed, but unfortunately would not have sprint boosts.

Riot

11-09-2007, 04:36 PM

You calling my Gyroscopic Boots slow?
heck madstone boots are fast enough.

maddmatt70

11-09-2007, 05:14 PM

This is more about about a battle of the titans, but even for an average barbarian in comparison to an average tank the speed holds true. When I run my two weapon fighting dps oriented fighter against axer the closest I come to competing from a kill ratio and an overall dps standpoint is in a non linear quest with twists and turns and ups and downs rather then a straight quest - the reason for this is speed. His speed advantage is somewhat negated in those quests - an example of this is elite twilight forge vs. a scale run. A scale run is a straight linear quest vs. the winding twisting corners of the twilight forge I am closer in terms of dps in a twilight forge run then I am a scale run. This illustrates that speed matters a great deal - riot couldn't keep up with axer in a scale run no way... (Shade the player is also very quick fast twitch etc.. which goes beyond his build.. just want to make sure that is stated).

When he gets at the monster he kills it quick.. No messing around there -that is the other component in your analysis that you are missing. Barbs and heavy dps characters kill the monsters very quickly currently that can not be stated enough. They do enough damage to get the job done. The examples you supply are old mod 2ish or prior to that 10th level - back then the game was different as I have previously stated... I have a feeling mod6 might be like mod2, but I can not really tell after all mod5 with the crit protected mobs was not successful in halting the ever growing barbarian presence..

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

11-09-2007, 06:30 PM

No i'm telling you to get a grip because I added a counter point to someones "power gaming point", and you're all over me like a bum on a dollar accusing me of being a power trip happy uber to the 9 leetist.
Back off....
My world is something you don't know about. Don't try to guess.

I know exactly who you are, based on the many (mostly great) contributions you make on these forums. You shouldnt get offended when I state the obvious (you talk OFTEN of power gaming), after all you have a rep for creating some very good builds. But if you tell someone to "get a grip," dont expect to be showered in flowers. You arent the only great player on here.

Speed running and power gaming is fun sometimes, not a bad thing for us that love to get the most out of the characters we are building. But you need to call it straight down the line.. Of course I knew that speed gaming isnt all you do. But if you dont want to be called out of the kitchen, dont enter it in the first place!

Borror0

11-09-2007, 07:20 PM

Ok, you guys argued like crazy but...

I'm still not informed. Why would my build be so mod 2? What in module 4-5 amkes my build obsolete?:eek:

maddmatt70

11-10-2007, 03:35 AM

Ok, you guys argued like crazy but...

I'm still not informed. Why would my build be so mod 2? What in module 4-5 amkes my build obsolete?:eek:

Hehe. Nothing makes you obsolete, but it is more to the point of are you optimum, is this style optimum or are you in an optimum subset post mod2. Mod2 AC mattered a great deal more then it did now. squishy barbs were mana sponges, clerics cried for an eternity about how expensive it was to be cleric and how the squishy barbs and the like were inefficient and sucked their money down the drain (I remember the mindset back in those days was never grab a warforged barbarian much less a barb as they were 13 yr old kids). What has changed? Mod4 saw the arrival of the arcane which decreased the potency of melees in general, the clerics never having to really worry about cash, the importance of ac has decreased and dps as a damage prevention tool has grown, barbs got the crit rage 2 which is quite frankly broken in my opinion, etc.. Mod5s biggest contribution has been the new understanding for more clerics out there of how potent metamagics can be and the continued oversaturation of high dps gear that was mod4. Clerics can heal a melee in the blink of an eye and that melee can kill in the same blink and the casters kill whatever is left. Casters have repeatedly jokingly and otherwise said that they don't need tanks - they can just solo anything so why have anything that does not at least do some damage in the party.. What does mod6 bring to the table? I don't know maybe range characters will get some love that would be nice..

I saw one of your guildies, stockwizard5, post in an abbot raid column that he trys to beat the abbot once every night. I am guessing that you are on those raids as well. Very cool I am jealous. Khyber has kind of given up as a server on the abbot raid a while ago. I did get in a pug group tonight (first one that I have seen in weeks) which was fun - we made it to the inferno, but well it was a pug group.. :)

Borror0

11-10-2007, 04:11 AM

Hehe. Nothing makes you obsolete, but it is more to the point of are you optimum, is this style optimum or are you in an optimum subset post mod2. Mod2 AC mattered a great deal more then it did now. squishy barbs were mana sponges, clerics cried for an eternity about how expensive it was to be cleric and how the squishy barbs and the like were inefficient and sucked their money down the drain (I remember the mindset back in those days was never grab a warforged barbarian much less a barb as they were 13 yr old kids).

That's still pretty Mod 3 too, but less since there was Greater Rage so their DPS got higher, but yes, I see your point.

However,don't forget this, high AC is still working. It's something most peopel tend to forget, I cannot blame them since the ammount of gear needed to reach that point is impressive. So yeah, AC is not useless yet. I think we both agree that this character is good, not a gimp at all. The arguement lies more to whether or not quest goes much faster with him.

Obviously, I'm in the yes camp. Or rather, in the as fast as with a barbarian.

Trust me, I could not stand being 'stub-optimal'. This character is efficient and performs well to the current game, he is not a relic of a previous module, he has adapted, or rather, my playstyle and weapons have adapted to the game, but the build very few. He can still perform well, like an Axer or Maldini could. Of course, it takes more skills and gear to make that character effective, but with maxed gear and the sme level of skill, that character performs as good as a barbarian.

I'd suck? Delete and reroll!

Casters have repeatedly jokingly and otherwise said that they don't need tanks - they can just solo anything so why have anything that does not at least do some damage in the party.. What does mod6 bring to the table? I don't know maybe range characters will get some love that would be nice..

Currently leveling a caster, and I can see that happening before level 14. It's the change they made to spellcasting that made the difference, IMO. More spell points, shorter cooldown, less expensive metamagics... that adds up.

Now, I do agree with you, why bring someone in a party that does not deal DPS?
Why do you grab a cleric? Why do you grab a rogue while leveling up? Why do you bring a CC wizard?

Here is the deal, I deal DPS... but I bring more. Otherwise, I'd be a gimp and I'd admit it. I'm bringing mana-efficiency. I know casters got plenty of mana, etc. I know that stuff.

However, there is to things to keep in mind.

First of all, I cost less to keep alive myself... and make the others cost less. Beleive me, the difference is big. Of course kill them before they damage you is nice, but it doesn't work all the time, even less versus Red Named. Fact is, I can hold myself pretty well versus all Red Named with only potions. There are a few examples, but not that many. So, you could see me as a... big Mnemonic Enhancer? I cost less, more mana for the casters. More mana for the casters means more DPS, and you said it yourself: Damage in end-game is about the SPs, not melee anymore!

Secondly, I bring even mana efficiency by grouping them all together, trust me, it does a big difference when the mobs stand still in the firewall without moving or running for the caster or when all the mobs are grouped together for that Mass Hold Person or when I grab all the aggro on a PuG and bring it in the Disco Ball (or whatever CC there).

Of course, I'm not the only way to get a quest done. I'm not the best of them, there are many that are as good one to an other. A barbarian can get it done faster by its own DPS, he's a killer, he's a lead guitar. He,s doen one that can brag about his kill counts if he wants, he's the one people can see resultats from. I'm different, to see the difference, you've got to group up with me a few times. My uberness does shine everywhere, it's not obvious, I'm a support player. I'm not DPS, I'm giving you more.

I saw one of your guildies, stockwizard5, post in an abbot raid column that he trys to beat the abbot once every night. I am guessing that you are on those raids as well. Very cool I am jealous. Khyber has kind of given up as a server on the abbot raid a while ago. I did get in a pug group tonight (first one that I have seen in weeks) which was fun - we made it to the inferno, but well it was a pug group.. :)

We did give up, there is no way we'll beat him right now... but we try just to get a bit of experience on him for when he'll be fixed.

Riot

11-12-2007, 09:24 AM

B- man.... I think the problem is with trying to explain mana efficiency to a Barbarian....

That's like ice skating uphill.

I know exactly who you are, based on the many (mostly great) contributions you make on these forums. You shouldnt get offended when I state the obvious (you talk OFTEN of power gaming), after all you have a rep for creating some very good builds. But if you tell someone to "get a grip," dont expect to be showered in flowers. You arent the only great player on here........

Dude,,,, the point is you went off on me for a point I wasn't making.
We shouldn't even be talking.

Borror0

11-12-2007, 01:43 PM

B- man.... I think the problem is with trying to explain mana efficiency to a Barbarian....

That's like ice skating uphill.

You did succeed to teach Maldini didn't you? ;)

PS: Talking about the beast... has he stopped playing?

Riot

11-12-2007, 02:49 PM

Teach? no... maybe not entirely.... TRAIN? yeah... he's been trained! =P

Speaking of "dini" he's out of action for the semester while he continues his Education.
Beleive it or not, we'll be calling him "doctor" some day.... that'll keep ya up at night.

Borror0

11-12-2007, 03:08 PM

Beleive it or not, we'll be calling him "doctor" some day.... that'll keep ya up at night.

Ya, I heard he's studying medecine... but I'm not that sure they'll let a barbarian touch a scalpel..:eek:

Riekan

11-13-2007, 10:17 AM

Come on now, what's Barbarian DPS but a well disciplined surgical strike?

Tanka

11-13-2007, 06:53 PM

Come on now, what's Barbarian DPS but a well disciplined surgical strike?
Blunt force trauma, I thought.

Deragoth

11-29-2007, 04:26 PM

Borror0,

Nice build. It would be a welcome addition to any group I'm in. Sadly, my personal play style has evolved into "dps-centric" characters. That's just me, not a knock on the build style :). I cut my teeth on the "Intimitank", modeling off of Riot's human template WAY back in 2006. I still play him every once in a while. Good, solid character, and lets you pull off some fun/weird tactics.

Once again, Solid build!

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

11-30-2007, 08:04 PM

Well, I play with two tanks built very similarly, however, one with great loot and one without. I think its imperative to note that this build is no starter build, or even a build for 95% of DDOdom. Most players do not have all, or even half, or quite frankly even a 1/3 of the items that are mentioned here in the introductory post as "possible end-gear". If you are one of the "boros" and the "riots" walking around with several mules of rare loot, then sure, this build can be successful at its aim. Dont even think of trying this build if you dont have the loot to match most of what Borro says he has.

As for how I've seen this build perform in game, its at best a mixed bag. It definitely can own a room in PvP, as long as its not filled with sorcs/wizzys. One chain lightening for example ends his day. Many DPS based toons will definately have trouble hitting a tank with this much AC.

As for questing, it doesn't fare as well, especially without power attack. Gimped (in my opinion) as a fighter, it cannot grab aggro or kill as good as a properly equipped DPS based barbarian or fighter. Now they CAN make great support roles, and can back up a cleric or bard in the healing/buffing process, using whatever scrolls wands etc their UMD allows. High UMD is the only real saving grace for this "fighter".

As far as playing pin cushion in a door way, you are only as good as your hit points and gear on higher end elite quests. If not played right, this guy will be sucking much mana from the cleric in the form of heals. As for the 2 guys i play with, the one without these types of rare gear gets powned. The guy with the gear, well, I'd say it pretty much under-performs at fighting, and in gianthold elite and greater necropolis areas, still gets powned at his basic goal to keep aggro off the squishys. If your blocking, the monster is still alive and is a threat to you and your party. I say just kill it! The faster the better :)

In closing even borro agrees he doesnt own all this loot, which means he's running around with much less AC and saves then he says he has. Borro hates when builds dont include all the best raid loot/rare drops, but im just the opposite, i hate when they DO. To me it doesnt show how your toon is going to play ANYTIME in the near future, and its pretty doubtful you will EVER realize the full potential of this build if even its CREATOR doesnt own the mentioned items/gear.

Strykersz

11-30-2007, 09:48 PM

He's said he doesn't have a Circle of Hatred and SS Goggles which means he's running around with...0 less ac. If you can't get the gear he lays out or at least get very close to it, you aren't trying. Titan, Crucible, Reaver, Xorian Cipher and the Auction House...these aren't exactly cutting edge content that require a highly coordinated guild to do.

Borror0

11-30-2007, 10:26 PM

Most players do not have all, or even half, or quite frankly even a 1/3 of the items that are mentioned here in the introductory post as "possible end-gear".

You can do pretty well without most of this stuff, but I prefger to but the best possible gear I can have rather than but put +5s and others. I find it hard to draw the line of where it's "too much" and where it's "not enough". I also like to actually show a possible end-game gear. Lastly, I like to show the full potential of a build, be it DPS or AC. This is why I went with the rarest. You can do well without most of the stuff here. And I've said it many times, I'm not even hiding it a litttle: this is a gear dependent build. Ac is gear dependent. Can't afford it? Don't play iy and shut up. It can be very good if you got the gear, it is not my fault if someone would decide to play it under-geared. Borror, like most intimitank, can compete in efficiency against any perfectly geared DPS build if Borror's got good gear. A naked Borror is worth nothing... but I don't know many ppl who play naked.

If you are one of the "boros" and the "riots" walking around with several mules of rare loot, then sure, this build can be successful at its aim. Dont even think of trying this build if you dont have the loot to match most of what Borro says he has.

Ok, want some myth busting?

Borror is my main, I got two capped toon, one of which I don't play anymore. Heiken is my only other toon that I play. Why you ask? I'm still at school and I got crazy ammount of class (33 hours/week) plus crazy ammount of homework (20-30 hours/week). I laso live in my own appartment, so I've got to deal with the whole housework/cooking stuff and I also try to have a social life like kids my age. But, I still manage to play, but not 5+ hours per week and edit the wiki. However, I focus on less characters. I've succeeded to gear up Borror well by dedicating to him a lot. So can anyone. I don't have mules of good gear, I've got very few. I just have my priorities and play my main a lot.

I'll agree on one think, if you don't have good gear, don't try it. But good gear is easier to come by then you could think... if you try hard enough.

As for how I've seen this build perform in game, its at best a mixed bag. It definitely can own a room in PvP, as long as its not filled with sorcs/wizzys.

So can any other melee. I've got good saves and good twitch skills, I can still manage to kill, I just take CE off and use my Cloudburst. I'm no moron, when AC is worthless (like vs Beholders) I turn CE off.

As for questing, it doesn't fare as well, especially without power attack. Gimped (in my opinion) as a fighter, it cannot grab aggro or kill as good as a properly equipped DPS based barbarian or fighter.

Cannot grab aggro? That is intimidate's job. I'm an addition of DPS, I'm not DPS itself, I leave that to the barb.

I know what a fighter can do, maybe you don't. An intimitank is a good build, it can contribute.

As far as playing pin cushion in a door way, you are only as good as your hit points and gear on higher end elite quests. If not played right, this guy will be sucking much mana from the cleric in the form of heals. As for the 2 guys i play with, the one without these types of rare gear gets powned. The guy with the gear, well, I'd say it pretty much under-performs at fighting, and in gianthold elite and greater necropolis areas, still gets powned at his basic goal to keep aggro off the squishys. If your blocking, the monster is still alive and is a threat to you and your party. I say just kill it! The faster the better :)

Ok, you play with gimps.

Sorry, I can kill perfectly fine. I almost never block. Shield Mastery is there becuase when I need it, I really need it. most of the time, I swing like any sword and board.

Sorry you play with gimps, I'm not one of them.

In closing even borro agrees he doesnt own all this loot, which means he's running around with much less AC and saves then he says he has. Borro hates when builds dont include all the best raid loot/rare drops, but im just the opposite, i hate when they DO. To me it doesnt show how your toon is going to play ANYTIME in the near future, and its pretty doubtful you will EVER realize the full potential of this build if even its CREATOR doesnt own the mentioned items/gear.

Yes, but it shows our your toon can fare NOW. You don't build a toon to play it in 5 months. You build it to play it now and enjoy him. If you're made a gimp with the next module, well that's life. Happenned to the bests. Just look at batman.

Like I said, I don't play that much. It's why I don't have all that gear.

I'm not running with much less AC... just with 3 less. It does really good. I run with the same saves, just my slots are different. Take Chircle of Hatred and replace it by a +6 Cha ring. Take wisdom helm off... and put a +13 intimidate helm and put a +4 resistance cloak. So what, my will saves are 3 lower? I think it doesn't make them too low, pretty much high saves if you ask me. High is high. They could be higher, but it's high enough.. so is my AC. There is only one raid loot AC item... you can get really high wihtout it, so the build can perform really well without ever raiding at all.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-02-2007, 09:56 AM

Like I said, I don't play that much. It's why I don't have all that gear. I'm not running with much less AC... just with 3 less. It does really good.

Borro, these comments dont make sense. If you dont run alot, there is no way you get all these items...

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 MithrilTower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring
Ring: Circle of Hatred
Bracers: Chaosguard
Cloak: +6 Charisma
Googles: Sandstorm Googles (Currently Blindness of Minute Seeing)
Gloves: +6 Strength
Boots: Madstone Boots

Thats just ridiculous. Again, if you dont play a lot, your ARE NOT going to get all this stuff. Not happening. You "don't play a lot" but find all these items and have time to update the Wiki. Interesting...

Oh, and as Madmatt has pointed out already, with the new raid drop system, the chances of someone who doesn't already have all this gear, actually pulling all this now, is just not being realistic. By the time one would pull all this stuff you are into another 2 Mods and a totally different game.

To defend your assumptions, the guilds I run with are FAR from gimped. Dont offend who you dont know. I've played with the best on Ghallanda. Your build is a good support build, and an ok fighter, but even you say, you are leaving most of the fighting to barbarians and I'll add the other better equipped fighters (for DPS). I just dont see an intimitank as being nearly as significant now as it was in Mod 1-2 days, and its becoming less important and much much harder to build.

I say if you got the items now, go ahead and try the build. But if you hang with us Borro, the sorcs and wizzys have already killed it, and if they didnt the DPS fighters & barbs have. I like the support guys (clerics, rogues, bards, rangers), because without them, we are nothing... But in the need-for-speed world of DDO questing, I think the intimitank fighter is a dying breed.

Taerdra

12-02-2007, 10:44 AM

We did Madstone normal with 9s-11s. One was an intimi-tank, and he made the biggest difference out of everyone IMO. Intimidated Skellies meant no death for my caster, when they were free I died 3 out of 5 times. You can't underestimate value like that...

Intimitanks still have a huge impact on the game. Yes, 6-12 decked out lvl 14s will not notice the tank as much, but the benefit in efficiency is there nonetheless.

Borror0

12-02-2007, 04:36 PM

Thats just ridiculous. Again, if you dont play a lot, your ARE NOT going to get all this stuff. Not happening. You "don't play a lot" but find all these items and have time to update the Wiki. Interesting...

Want me to list +4s items and such? It's not that much of a problem. The hardest item to get is the MFP, besides, not that hard to get. the build can be very effective with lesser items. The only needed items are Chaosguards, +5 Protection item, +5 MP and MTS. Chattering ring is a very nice bonus, but it's not gimping you. I've got my TS for less than 2kpp and I looted my MFP. I also looted my Chaoguardes after a few XC runs.

Items aren't that hard to get, you just have to look for them.

Oh, and as Madmatt has pointed out already, with the new raid drop system, the chances of someone who doesn't already have all this gear, actually pulling all this now, is just not being realistic. By the time one would pull all this stuff you are into another 2 Mods and a totally different game.

The gear listed here is not needed, but i rather the best gear than to list +4 Cha/Con/Str items. that is my choice, define me what is too much, and I'll "post" my builds accodring to youtr taste.

To defend your assumptions, the guilds I run with are FAR from gimped. Dont offend who you dont know. I've played with the best on Ghallanda. Your build is a good support build, and an ok fighter, but even you say, you are leaving most of the fighting to barbarians and I'll add the other better equipped fighters (for DPS). I just dont see an intimitank as being nearly as significant now as it was in Mod 1-2 days, and its becoming less important and much much harder to build.

I say if you got the items now, go ahead and try the build. But if you hang with us Borro, the sorcs and wizzys have already killed it, and if they didnt the DPS fighters & barbs have. I like the support guys (clerics, rogues, bards, rangers), because without them, we are nothing... But in the need-for-speed world of DDO questing, I think the intimitank fighter is a dying breed.

Yes. I am leaving most of the DPS to builds made for it, that is how it works. Until the day it'll become totally impossible for a caster/healer to run out of SP in a quest, intimitanks will be effective. We both know SP are the real DPS in the game, the more I save, the fatser the quest get done. On top of it, I also give rogue more DPS. The build is support, so what. You said you liek support builds, why do you hate the intimitanks so bad... or is it because I proved you many times your build wasn't really good... and you didn't enjoy it.

Intimitanks aren't dead, they are good. There are many people that can witness it. Maybe you're not one of them, but that's only because those you played with aren't good enough for it. Because a good intimitank will prove you he is worth a spot in any of your groups. So yes, I call your friends gimps... because they weren't capable of proving how good an intimitank is. If they're not gimps, they are bad players... or simply made-up friends.

Mhykke

12-02-2007, 05:19 PM

But if you hang with us Borro, the sorcs and wizzys have already killed it, and if they didnt the DPS fighters & barbs have. I like the support guys (clerics, rogues, bards, rangers), because without them, we are nothing... But in the need-for-speed world of DDO questing, I think the intimitank fighter is a dying breed.

Umm, the OP didn't state the goal of his build was DPS. I think he'd acknowledge that casters/barbs/dps fighters/dps rogues would outkill him. That's not the point. The point is that during the quests, these DPS classes would take much less damage w/ the OP in the group, keeping aggro off of the barb/caster, freeing the cleric to offensively cast some, allowing the rogues to get multiple chunks of sneak attack damage, 6s at a time.

Walk up to a mob, intimidate, swing away....by the time intim. aggro goes away, w/ a good group, most stuff is dead or close to dead.

The intimitank can speed up quests, just in a different way than the barb or the caster.

The guy with the gear, well, I'd say it pretty much under-performs at fighting, and in gianthold elite and greater necropolis areas, still gets powned at his basic goal to keep aggro off the squishys.

If you run w/ an intimitank that still gets "powned", in any quest, on any level, while not keeping aggro off party members, then that tank either isn't built correctly, isn't played well, doesn't have the gear you claim, or a combination of the three.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-02-2007, 10:26 PM

I proved you many times your build wasn't really good... and you didn't enjoy it.

Actually all you did was make alot of noise. Aandre is a very active and very effective fighter on Ghallanda. I am amused you have to put down everyone who doesnt agree with your opinion. Sorry, my opinion stands.

As for insulting the people I party with once again, it wont work... you arent the only one who knows how to play the game, and you can put THAT in your wiki. Your build is a support role, plain and simple. Ive already stated I like support role toons. But I'd never have someone in my party putting down other players in MY group, so you'd be out looking for another group. Your knowledge of DDO and your knowledge of community are two different subjects. Focus more on educating people (if thats your goal) and not on degrading the people who look objectively at your build.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-02-2007, 10:44 PM

If you run w/ an intimitank that still gets "powned", in any quest, on any level, while not keeping aggro off party members, then that tank either isn't built correctly, isn't played well, doesn't have the gear you claim, or a combination of the three.

Exactly my point. Building this tank correctly, with the gear borro claims we should have, right NOW as DDO stands, is a tall order, or maybe more accurately put a tall tale. Gameplay of course will make ANY build better or worse. I dont think we are in disagreement at all. My only problems with the build is how close to impossible it would be for a player to find all this loot (even the instrumental +5 mithral FP is no easy find) and the more and more limited his role has become.

An already established intimitank I have less of a problem with... and on some quests they prove really helpful, especially on a quest like Madstone. Any intimitank barb who runs the baddies in circles while the giants are safe and sound in Madstone know exactly what I'm talking about! :) But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting :).

Mhykke

12-02-2007, 10:50 PM

Exactly my point. Building this tank correctly, with the gear borro claims we should have, right NOW as DDO stands, is a tall order, or maybe more accurately put a tall tale. Gameplay of course will make ANY build better or worse. I dont think we are in disagreement at all. My only problems with the build is how close to impossible it would be for a player to find all this loot (even the instrumental +5 mithral FP is no easy find) and the more and more limited his role has become.

An already established intimitank I have less of a problem with... and on some quests they prove really helpful, especially on a quest like Madstone. But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting :).

I don't know. Depends on the player. Some will wait a long time for the gear, some will have it already sitting in their newly rolled intimitank's bank, waiting for him to get to the appropriate lvl.

If your problem is simply the posting of good gear, well, that's a personal taste.

I prefer builds posted with the best gear, to see what that character's potential is. People can then adjust accordingly. In my opinion, it's better than posting a build with +4 items all around, w/o any great stuff b/c people look to builds for advice. If you don't show the max potential, someone looking for advice won't know if the build is what he's looking for, at cap, w/ items he's probably after anyway (even if it'll take him a long time to acquire).

I think it's better when people post max potential, instead of just average potential, leaving it up to every individual to try and figure out what they should be after if they're looking to a build for advice in the first place.

Seems to me that you weren't just criticizing the posting of the gear, but the very idea of the viability of a character like this, even w/ the gear posted.

Borror0

12-03-2007, 12:17 AM

Actually all you did was make alot of noise. Aandre is a very active and very effective fighter on Ghallanda. Sorry, my opinion stands.

This doesn't prove your character is any better. I know people that are much better player with their weird toon than some are *** their "perfectly built" toons. I've given to you that you can be a very good player no mattter your build. A build is only a small percentage of your effectiveness (unless you are an 8 Int Wizard... but that's another topic). I've said that we are never discussing a player's skill on the forum. We assume equal level of skill as what we are trying to determinate is what would make the build better. We always assume that the player has equal level of skill, as we assume someone will only play build has has the skill to play.

As for insulting the people I party with once again, it wont work... you arent the only one who knows how to play the game, and you can put THAT in your wiki.

Put what on my wiki?

I've said, if they can't prove an intimitank is good, then they got a problem. Either the build is awful, either the player doesn't play well, either they got too low AC and saves... or a combanasion of the three.

But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting :).

I've said it to you, you can be effective without raid loot, so your argument holds no water!

Of course I'm still waiting to get my perfect gear, but so 99% of the DDO players. And like I said, don't have much time to play lately.

Good gear isn't as hard to come by as you make it sound, this gear is gear-dependant, but it doesn't fall into pieces if you don't have all the list.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-03-2007, 01:21 AM

Good gear isn't as hard to come by as you make it sound, this gear is gear-dependent, but it doesn't fall into pieces if you don't have all the list.

This is my whole point. Most of the AC gear you post is extremely rare. Dont fool anyone that it isnt. As an upstart build, starting with regular loot that 90% of the game possesses, they will stand no chance to EVER see this loot in the quantity thats necessary to realize the numbers you post. While they wait, they are getting hammered, unable to block those shots, less able to kill than the rest of the melees, and not enough hit points to survive the shots in the first place until level8 at least... you are a pin cushion. Anf if you are lucky enough to get to level 14, you better be ready with your items (which you wont be) or else you are really gonna get rocked.... Not my idea of fun :)

Mhykke

12-03-2007, 01:59 AM

This is my whole point. Most of the AC gear you post is extremely rare. Dont fool anyone that it isnt. As an upstart build, starting with regular loot that 90% of the game possesses, they will stand no chance to EVER see this loot in the quantity thats necessary to realize the numbers you post. While they wait, they are getting hammered, unable to block those shots, less able to kill than the rest of the melees, and not enough hit points to survive the shots in the first place until level8 at least... you are a pin cushion. Anf if you are lucky enough to get to level 14, you better be ready with your items (which you wont be) or else you are really gonna get rocked.... Not my idea of fun :)

I think you're using some hyperbole in regards to the gear posted.
Here's the gear in the OP:

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/HeadofGoodFortune.jpg)
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/DaggertoothsBelt.jpg)
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 MithrilTower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/ChatteringRing.jpg)
Ring: Circle of Hatred (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/CircleofHatred.jpg)
Bracers: Chaosguard (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Chaosgarde.jpg)
Cloak: +6 Charisma
Googles: Sandstorm Googles (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/SandstormGoggles.jpg) (Currently Blindness of Minute Seeing)
Gloves: +6 Strength
Boots: Madstone Boots (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/MadstoneBoots.jpg)

Head? Pff, there's plenty of reaver runs nightly. Not hard to get.
Protection +5 neck.? On AH all the time, some for very cheap.
Daggertooth Belt: rare, but not out of the realm of possibility.
Armor: So go w/ +4 mith. fp, which is very attainable.
Mith. tower, same as above, although much easier to get.
Chattering ring may be tougher, unless you can find a static group to run w/.
Circle of hatred? Doesn't matter for ac.....grab yourself a +11 intim. ring, but there are a few +13's on the AH here and there, for fairly cheap.
The rest, either not hard to get or don't add to ac. It's not as though he posted 5 deathnips and all the shields from the shield fragment list...

Most of that raid gear is fairly easy to obtain (reaver and queen loot). The +5 items have drastically gone down in price, and if one saves, can get those things fairly quickly.

If you replace some of the stuff on the list w/ slightly lower quality, AC drops 3 or 4 ish....definitely doesn't turn the build from a tank to a "pincushion", and is still a fine build.

I also don't get the "upstart" build stuff. I don't think the OP mentions this build is a good one for people new to the game. In fact, he stated it was his first 32 point character.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-03-2007, 02:45 AM

I also don't get the "upstart" build stuff. I don't think the OP mentions this build is a good one for people new to the game. In fact, he stated it was his first 32 point character.

You make this gear sound so easy to attain, but it isnt. On all the same player? No.. Did you ever catch the AH price for a +5 mithral fp? Only plat farmers "buy" in that range.... most players need to PULL an item like that... very very few can afford. Most players that have been playing since BETA (almost 2 years ago) cant say they have all these items.. You are misleading gamers here.

If you already have the loot knock yerself out... but if you dont, you'll be wishing you DID..... This build is not for the new OR average player... no matter how many times you say it is.

Mhykke

12-03-2007, 02:48 AM

You make this gear sound so easy to attain, but it isnt. On all the same player? No.. Did you ever catch the AH price for a +5 mithral fp? Only plat farmers "buy" in that range.... most players need to PULL an item like that... very very few can afford. You are misleading gamers here.

If you already have the loot knock yerself out... but if you dont, you'll be wishing you DID.....

But I already addressed this. You don't need to get the +5 mfp. You can get the +4, which is very attainable (heck, I've seen it at house K vendor on multiple occasions.) Replacing things like +5 mfp w/ +4 mfp don't break the build. You are the one misleading people here, trying to say the build needs all of this stuff to be effective. No. It's just this stuff is the optimal gear for the OP. People can adjust according to what they expect to get.

Strykersz

12-03-2007, 04:19 AM

Alternatively, one can get +5fp and dwarven armor mastery 2 and have identical ac to that of this build.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-03-2007, 04:20 AM

You can get the +4, which is very attainable (heck, I've seen it at house K vendor on multiple occasions.) Replacing things like +5 mfp w/ +4 mfp don't break the build. People can adjust according to what they expect to get.

You argue over and over again about non sequitors. Most people would not be able to get this build into 50's... you'll still get hit hard. Most players dont have the Daggertooth Belt, Chaosguard, Chattering Ring, the +5 Mith FP, etc etc... by the time you redo the math, hes still in the 40's. Theres far too little room for "adjusting." Ive seen the +4 mithral FP in the vendor 1 time in almost TWO YEARS. And that was luck. And Im in there many times a day. 98% of DDOdom will tell you they never saw +4 mith fp in the house k vendor... You are living in a dream world. You have limited vision of the vast citizenry of DDOdom. Most dont have this uber gear.

This build is only for people that already have most of the loot already. PERIOD.

Obitus

12-03-2007, 06:10 AM

You argue over and over again about non sequitors. Most people would not be able to get this build into 50's... you'll still get hit hard. Most players dont have the Daggertooth Belt, Chaosguard, Chattering Ring, the +5 Mith FP, etc etc... by the time you redo the math, hes still in the 40's. Theres far too little room for "adjusting." Ive seen the +4 mithral FP in the vendor 1 time in almost TWO YEARS. And that was luck. And Im in there many times a day. 98% of DDOdom will tell you they never saw +4 mith fp in the house k vendor... You are living in a dream world. You have limited vision of the vast citizenry of DDOdom. Most dont have this uber gear.

This build is only for people that already have most of the loot already. PERIOD.

It seems like you've spent the last couple of pages hammering home a point that Borror already acknowledged at the beginning -- that Intimitanks are very gear-dependent.

And that's irrefutably true. While all builds count to some degree on gear, Intimitanks are perhaps unique in the sense that, if they dip below a certain threshold of equipment quality, they simply cannot perform their intended role.

On the other hand, the counter-example that Borror offered, a Barbarian, is also perhaps unique with respect to its lack of gear dependency. Every other build falls somewhere in the middle. Seeing casters without high stat and Potency/Devotion items try to function in the later levels is kind of hilarious, for instance. Rogue builds without big +skill items are pretty weak, too.

DDO as an entire game revolves around gear, to the point where the underlying build is almost always secondary.

Discussing builds, however, is interesting for those who want to get the maximum performance out of their characters, and to that end, it's useful to know what's achievable with the best, or near the best gear. That doesn't mean, of course, that prospective players of a posted build should necessarily expect to find all the best of everything anytime soon; it just means that a build without a target, without end-game context, is very hard to read and evaluate properly.

As for Borror's AC breakdown:

10 Base
+13 Armor
+9 Shield
+5 Protection
+6 Dodge
+1 Aura
+5 Dex
+5 Combat Expertise
--------------------
54 Unbuffed

You're looking at 3 fewer points of AC if you remove the Chattering Ring, which is probably the hardest AC-related item in his list. Then again, you can add 3 points of AC for Barkskin pots, which are both cheap and in infinite supply. You can also add a further +1 if you pick up an "of parrying" weapon.

If you want to take this elite-loot argument to the point of absurdity, then sure, remove 2 points to account for +4 armor and shield. But as a previous poster noted, you can get the same effect with vanilla +5 Full Plate if you take Dwarven Armor Mastery II. Take away another 2 points to sub in Spectacular Optics for the +5 protection item.

Surely you're not going to argue that the +4 DEX item in Borror's equipment list is too rare, so we'll leave DEX where it is. Chaosgarde? Fine, fine. The bracers are a semi-static chest item from a freaking level 9 quest, but we'll humor you.

So where does that leave us?

54 old total
-3 Chattering Ring
+3 Barkskin Potion
+1 "of parrying" weapon
-1 Shield
+0 Armor
-2 Spectacular Optics
-2 Chaosgarde
-----------------------
50 AC without outside buffs
52 AC blocking
54 AC versus ogres, trolls, giants
56 AC blocking versus ogres, trolls, giants

Those last two numbers are very important, because most of the heavy-hitting, high-attack-bonus mobs in this game fall into the giant category. With group buffs, the Borror build with this new item loadout can potentially hit 62 AC (64 block) against these foes, and 58 (60) against others. Toss Chaosgarde into the mix (which is really kind of absurd to disinclude), and you're back up to 60 (62) AC, and 64 (66) against giant-type critters.

Oh noes. He sure is screwed.

Finally, it's worth noting that if the so-called casual player (I'm sure I'm one by the standards of this forum) is as helpless and gear-starved as you imply, then that self-same casual player will rarely if ever be fighting any of the mobs that would severely test the above AC scores. See, if you fight really difficult stuff in this game, you tend to loot very nice chests. It's funny how that works out. ;)

The days of mostly-normal questing are over, by the way; shocking as it may sound, your average pick-up group these days (in my experience) is doing as many elite quests as they can. Considering that poor little old me managed to outfit an Intimitank basically on the sole basis of Co6 and Giant cave runs waaaay back when, it should be comparatively very easy, if perhaps time-consuming, to do it now that we have better chests and the Auction House.

Cashiry

12-03-2007, 06:33 AM

The days of mostly-normal questing are over, by the way; shocking as it may sound, your average pick-up group these days (in my experience) is doing as many elite quests as they can. Considering that poor little old me managed to outfit an Intimitank basically on the sole basis of Co6 and Giant cave runs waaaay back when, it should be comparatively very easy, if perhaps time-consuming, to do it now that we have better chests and the Auction House.

Concur with this statement.... thats where I pulled my stuff also, minus the Chaosguarde/chat ring and +5 protection necklace, still pulled the a +4 pro necklace from Co6 back in the day so no bid diffrence there..

Tanka

12-03-2007, 08:00 AM

Intimitanks have always been very, very heavily gear dependent. Moreso than any other class. They need all the high level, rare loot that boosts AC, Intimidate, saves and HP, with a few that boost stats (Cha, Str, Dex and Con, in that order generally speaking).

They are the hardest to play right, as they require precise timing and intricate knowledge of the game's mechanics.

To say "no new player could ever attain this" is partially right, if only due to the fact that without the proper gear and knowledge, such an Intimitank is gonna get clobbered no matter the cause.

However, if a new player were to dedicate their time to acquiring the gear, acquiring the knowledge and the skill, then they can make and use this build effectively.

Do you think Riot started with all this gear in his bank? Nope. He had to earn it through hard work, lots of looting, trading and raiding.

Taerdra

12-03-2007, 08:29 AM

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/HeadofGoodFortune.jpg)
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/DaggertoothsBelt.jpg)
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 MithrilTower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/ChatteringRing.jpg)
Ring: Circle of Hatred (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/CircleofHatred.jpg)
Bracers: Chaosguard (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Chaosgarde.jpg)
Cloak: +6 Charisma
Googles: Sandstorm Googles (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/SandstormGoggles.jpg) (Currently Blindness of Minute Seeing)
Gloves: +6 Strength
Boots: Madstone Boots (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/MadstoneBoots.jpg)

Do you switch something out for Heavy Fort or is it attached to one of the items you are referring to? I think that is the hardest part about playing an intimi-tank: not finding the gear, but fitting it all in for maximum efficiency.

Cashiry

12-03-2007, 08:35 AM

Borror0

12-03-2007, 08:38 AM

Do you switch something out for Heavy Fort or is it attached to one of the items you are referring to? I think that is the hardest part about playing an intimi-tank: not finding the gear, but fitting it all in for maximum efficiency.

Mobs hit you 1 time out of 20. To crit they have to hit you twice, with Moderate Fort, it's 3 times our of 1600 hits. Pretty close to 0, not worth a spot for Heavy Fort. Much better stuff to get from other item, at least for now.

Riot

12-03-2007, 09:04 AM

B-Man... Spoken like an AC master... You make a Intimitank proud... =)

Taerdra

12-03-2007, 10:04 AM

Mobs hit you 1 time out of 20. To crit they have to hit you twice, with Moderate Fort, it's 3 times our of 1600 hits. Pretty close to 0, not worth a spot for Heavy Fort. Much better stuff to get from other item, at least for now.

Thanks. Just what I was interested in.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-03-2007, 12:07 PM

Intimitanks have always been very, very heavily gear dependent. To say "no new player could ever attain this" is partially right, if only due to the fact that without the proper gear and knowledge, such an Intimitank is gonna get clobbered no matter the cause.

Exactly. That was my only point. Selling builds like this mislead new players and average players. Unless you plan on dedicating all your DDO life and most of your REAL life to "possibly" get the perfect gear needed, and sounds groovy to you, then knock yourself out.

My warforged tank gets up to 65AC and I know full well the benefits and the effort and the gameplay that goes into playing a tank. On certain quests he comes in great handy. In PvP a superstar. But PvP isnt questing, there IS a difference. There are costs besides gear/weaponry to keep this soldier upright in battle. The right items needed to really make this build shine are simply out of grasp for the vast majority of players. Its a very very "niche" build.

Borror0

12-03-2007, 12:35 PM

Exactly. That was my only point. Selling builds like this mislead new players and average players. Unless you plan on dedicating all your DDO life and most of your REAL life to "possibly" get the perfect gear needed, and sounds groovy to you, then knock yourself out.

**Ahem**

However, that's only if you suck but have good gear. It is very important to have good lowbie and high-end gear. Intimitanks are really gear-dependant, be ready for it.

I've said it from the start, you're still arguing about it on page 5...

My warforged tank gets up to 65AC and I know full well the benefits and the effort and the gameplay that goes into playing a tank. On certain quests he comes in great handy. There are costs besides gear/weaponry to keep this soldier upright in battle. The right items needed to really make this build shine are simply out of grasp for the vast majority of players. Its a very very "niche" build.

A very very "niche" builds that I receive questions about to help reproduce it or adapt to their game play and then receive thanks for the help and feedback oince they reach high levels and enjoy their build, sorry, but this build is enjoyed a lot. Lots of ppl enjoy their intimitank. Thjey are not the majority in-game, but they are a high proportion on the forums, which is a good thing... as ppl that doesn't read the forums will never read this thread. I will not that someone into consideration if he'll never read this thread. There are people that will enjoy this build, this is for them. Quit arguing, you don't like it? walk away, it's not for you. Some people do, this is for them and obviously not for you.

No offense Leslie, but you're very illogical. You have a 65 AC tank... but you're saying intimitanks sucks... what the hell?

Strykersz

12-03-2007, 01:37 PM

To summarize the last few pages of this thread: This build *can* be effective with suboptimal gear, if you know what substitutions to make. However, the gear used is not excessive for a build that says "You must eat a tome by level 4 to use this build."

Impaqt

12-03-2007, 01:45 PM

-sigh- Most of the build presented on this forum are NOT designed for brand new players. They are designed for well established gamers who tend to run in semi-static groups. ANd Surprise..... this tends tobe the VAST majority of people who frequent the forums. SHocking.. I know!

NOTHING in this list is all that had to come by taking that scenario into the equation. and to be honest, even a newer player with a little luck and a friend could do this build justice.

Some people enjoy picking apart builds for no real good reason..... THis is not one that screams "Outrageous" to me....

THeres been plenty of builds that incorporate Raid loot in just about every slot and Multiple +2 and even +3 Tomes..... THos are the ones I laugh at...

Playing a True Tank isnt for everyone. (Or even a "Hybrid" as some peoplel like to call it) If you arent up for the challenge, you can roll a straight fighter and take all kinds of SPecilizations and Focus' for your offense and do just fine int his game. FOr a True Defensive build, It take a bit more effort.

**
A very very "niche" builds that I receive questions about to help reproduce it or adapt to their game play and then receive thanks for the help and feedback oince they reach high levels and enjoy their build, sorry, but this build is enjoyed a lot. Lots of ppl enjoy their intimitank. ?

Dont forget about the people this build help influence to design their own Tank. WIthout this Build, Kilgan never would of been designed or rolled up!

Averroes

12-03-2007, 04:24 PM

My warforged tank gets up to 65AC and I know full well the benefits and the effort and the gameplay that goes into playing a tank.

Wow. Your warforged must have some pretty nice gear... The best I can do is:

10 base
10 armor (mithral body, +5 docent)
7 dex (2 mithral fluidity feats, FTM 3, 24 dex)
=27
9 +5 MTS
5 deflection (+5 protection item)
3 natural (bark)
6 dodge (feat, chaosguards, chattering ring)
=50
1 aura
5 CE
1 haste
=57
3 standing next to an 11+ pally
2 grouped with a 12+ ranger
=62
2 recitation
=64

Not 65, even with buffs that one is unlikely to ever actually have.

And really, what are these costs "besides gear and weaponry" that are incurred to keep an intimtank up and running? Mine certainly doesn't require a cleric...

sigtrent

12-03-2007, 06:28 PM

Wow. Your warforged must have some pretty nice gear... The best I can do is:

A lot of folks will include stuff like +2 when blocking and/or +5 armor fighter armor boost or thier bonus from uncanny dodge etc...

Silly to me but folks do that sometimes.

kelsolo

12-03-2007, 06:45 PM

Well, I've managed to make my way up to level 7 with a very similar build to Borror's. I was worried that I might be a liability to groups I was in, but I simply took his final loot list and paired it down to items I could wear at my level. Currently my unbuffed AC is 40, achieved with this list:

10 - base
+11 - +3 Mitheral Full Plate
+7 - +3 Mitheral Tower Shield
+2 - Protection Necklace
+1 - Paladin Aura
+4 - Dex modifier
+5 - Combat Expertise

I regularily hit 45-46 in group situations.

I find that to be a pretty spectacular number doing tangleroot or stormcleave or other appropriately leveled quest. :)

My saves are great for this level as well, usually only failing on rolls of 1, but I am finding that agro from multiple casters requires some healing to stay alive (half damage still adds up). I'm begining to wonder if evasion at 14, while losing a few AC, might be worth it. Time will tell.

All of the items I'm currently wearing came very cheaply from the AH or from out of friend's bank accounts. I realize that they are not end game items, but really, if I just continue to upgrade what I have, I will certainly achieve the list Borror has posted, or very close to it. I already have several of the big items banked from my first character and friends (the full plate and tower shield). LeslieWest keeps talking about how the average player cannot get the items Borror listed unless he loots them himself, but I propose that most of us that play this game do it socially, and with the help of others its certainly doable. Yes it will take some time, but isn't that the point of this game? Questing to try and improve our characters? Yes, I may not be "quite" as effective as Borror (who has achieved most of his list), and Borror may not be "quite" as effective as someone who has achieved all of his list, but really, a couple of points here and there do not make it unplayable. It's actually the opposite, you just have to try a little harder!

In any case, I'm having a blast, and I think if you gave it a shot you might find yourself enjoying it as well LeslieWest.

Intimidating 4 giants on stormcleave elite, and watching your health bar just stay full is an absolute riot. Not sure if you know this, but when a giant does his big AE swing, even if he misses you, he still pushes you back with the rest of the fighters who were just knocked on their butts. Kinda funny to keep getting tossed around but not take any damage.

Cheers, and thanks to all the intimitanks that posted their builds, it really helped me decide what I wanted to do with my own.

Slayer918

12-03-2007, 07:11 PM

A lot of folks will include stuff like +2 when blocking and/or +5 armor fighter armor boost or thier bonus from uncanny dodge etc...

Silly to me but folks do that sometimes.

Leslie does not like using clickies such as boosts

Borror0

12-03-2007, 09:43 PM

Intimidating 4 giants on stormcleave elite, and watching your health bar just stay full is an absolute riot.

I don't know if it was an intended pun or not, but I laughed so hard.

Glad you enjoy your tank. :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-04-2007, 07:27 AM

Wow. Your warforged must have some pretty nice gear... The best I can do is:

10 base
10 armor (mithral body, +5 docent)
7 dex (2 mithral fluidity feats, FTM 3, 24 dex)
=27
9 +5 MTS
5 deflection (+5 protection item)
3 natural (bark)
6 dodge (feat, chaosguards, chattering ring)
=50
1 aura
5 CE
1 haste
=57
3 standing next to an 11+ pally
2 grouped with a 12+ ranger
=62
2 recitation
=64

Not 65, even with buffs that one is unlikely to ever actually have.

And really, what are these costs "besides gear and weaponry" that are incurred to keep an intimtank up and running? Mine certainly doesn't require a cleric...

10 Base
7 Max Dex Bonus (Fighter's Armor Mastery II)
5 Mithral Body
5 +5 Docent
7 +5 Heavy Shield
5 Combat Expertise
2 Chaosguarde Bracers
1 Dodge feat
1 Haste
5 Protection
3 Chattering Ring
3 Barkskin
1 Aura
-----------------
55
4 Action Boost
-----------------
59
3 Standing next to pali
2 standing next to ranger
-----------------
64
2 luck bonus (recitation)
-----------------
66

just woke up so dont kill if i added wrong or left something out ... but overall not a bad number heh? :)

Riot

12-04-2007, 08:49 AM

I don't know if it was an intended pun or not, but I laughed so hard.
I saw that too. Thought it was Subliminal.... LoL

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-04-2007, 12:56 PM

I saw that too. Thought it was Subliminal.... LoL

Hmmm, think I'll swipe that name for my Bard... Subliminal.... :)

kelsolo

12-04-2007, 01:29 PM

I don't know if it was an intended pun or not, but I laughed so hard.

Glad you enjoy your tank. :)

Heh, not intentional, but mayhaps subliminal...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 10:42 AM

There are people that will enjoy this build, this is for them. you don't like it? walk away

Ahhhhh, funny how you didnt take this advice from me in a thread I started last month.... You didnt like my DPS build, which would have been cool if you didnt spam my thread for say.. 80 different times? No offense, but I think you need follow your own advice a little more....

Its my personal preference to tell it the way it is. There are too few people in DDO that can clothe and play this build.

All I'm saying is lets put together some builds that the MAJORITY of DDO can build and play... and not these super-duper-uberfied concepts that even the builder himself doesn't even have the loot to match.

As for being called "illogical" Borro, I must say it feels pretty logical to help people design and play builds that they can play today. Thats what I do on Ghallanda for those who ask. They seem pretty happy about their builds too.

My opinion will not change because Mr. Borro0 doesn't like my build or doesn't like my opinion of his. I feel that this build isnt worth the time invested into it to play at this point. It doesnt speak to enough players (that has this loot) to really be worth much. Maybe when we get to level 16-20 my opinion might change. I think the intimitank and battle cleric builds will be much happier when we see level 20. Until then, step aside, Aandre's getting the kill!! :)

Impaqt

12-05-2007, 11:21 AM

Borror0

12-05-2007, 11:23 AM

Ahhhhh, funny how you didnt take this advice from me in a thread I started last month.... You didnt like my DPS build, which would have been cool if you didnt spam my thread for say.. 80 different times? No offense, but I think you need follow your own advice a little more....

Difference, we were trying to improve your build, you would not listen. You had the biggest fighter forum posters against you (and even that mostly post in other sections), telling you that you could impove it. Coming up with logical arguements, proving you that you would come out better of the suggested changes. Now, if you have any suggestion to make my build better, I will gladly listen and comment on your suggestions. If all you have to do is saying how mean I am to post a build that most players of the game can't play, get off the thread. Let those that like the build post. :)

Its my personal preference to tell it the way it is. There are too few people in DDO that can clothe and play this build.

All I'm saying is lets put together some builds that the MAJORITY of DDO can build and play... and not these super-duper-uberfied concepts that even the builder himself doesn't even have the loot to match.

So you're saying that it should be forbiden to posr a Battle mage or any fun build because they are not for everyone? Because they need gear? I'm not walking around and saying "everyone should make an intimitank" or saying that it's for everyone. I've said it many times, and say it once more intimitanks are not for everyone. Live with it. I know it, stop trying to "teach" me or whatever. I've played the build, I know it's not an easy build to play to its full potential, but for those that what to give it a try, the build is there. Quote me where I said this was for the majority of DDO players. I'm not giving false hope to anyone. I would have not reposted my build it wasn't of requests. Yes, you read right, I got a ton of PMs about my build and I'm still getting. I've got two people waiting for me to have enough time to reply, to give them my point of view.

You're saying i should not post here and help them?

As for being called "illogical" Borro, I must say it feels pretty logical to help people design and play builds that they can play today. Thats what I do on Ghallanda for those who ask. They seem pretty happy about their builds too.

What makes this build unplayable today?

Then I would try to refute and prove you're being illogical but you didn't even refute my statement, lol.

My opinion will not change because Mr. Borro0 doesn't like my build or doesn't like my opinion of his. I feel that this build isnt worth the time invested into it to play at this point.

Then why do you have a "65 AC tank"?:confused:

Until then, step aside, Aandre's getting the kill!! :)

What kills? The sorcerer, the rogue and the barbarian's stole them from you.:cool:

Mhykke

12-05-2007, 12:50 PM

I'd just like to say that I don't think the gear required, on the whole, is all that difficult for a player (casual or powergamer) to get, in today's ddo, if he makes a conscious effort to do so. Especially not if he focuses on that one character's development for a little while.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 05:39 PM

SO now the real motivation comes out.... Your thread got closed, so your going to do whatever it takes to shut this one down....

The Majority of the server population dont even come to the forums on a regular basis.. Let alone to look at Builds.... THe vast majority of people around here are the power gamers who dont feel the gear listed is excessive at all.... I cant explain it any better.

See now THIS is where you are wrong. Once gamers find out there IS a forum, they check it out. I get about 10-20 a week at LEAST to check out the forums. I read it and recommend it. I know as a long time gamer that a forum represents a game in many ways. A vibrant forum almost always means a vibrant game. Since I love this game, I will get as many people to the forums as I can...

In order to educate the general populous, we need to include builds they can play. I already know how to build and play an elite build. I have several in fact. But I prefer to cater to the general player. I support THEM, not the power gamer. Without the "regular" players, DDO would be gone.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 06:16 PM

Difference, we were trying to improve your build, you would not listen. You had the biggest fighter forum posters against you (and even that mostly post in other sections), telling you that you could impove it.

Out of over 250+ posts more than half were you and Mkykke... constantly spamming the thread, with insults and no new ideas... But I still won the war. I didnt cry, I stood up for what I believed in. I listened to everyone, but had to repeat appx 100 times to you and Mkykke that the build wasnt going to change to your likings. For the 2 or 3 people that actually had good ideas, I gave them props, and explained that it was an alternate way my build can be designed... You however had no good ideas for the build. My build is a solid DPS build built on a Maldini core. It is pretty easy to build and pretty dominating, regardless what you feel. Most importantly ANYBODY can play the build, not much is needed to dominate, just good solid stats, feats, and enhancements. Those are the kind of builds I like.

You want my critique? ok... I think your toon is too underpowered to be an offensive force. Your defense isnt as effective now as it would be if this were Mod 2 or 3. You'll do great in PvP because noone can hit you. In a quest, you get hit, no doubt about it, spend your money on healing... futz around with your defenses (clicky's and pots and whatever else you use) instead of killing. The attitude you've shown on my thread and on this thread show that you cant take criticism well. You have said your build is the ultimate... I dont see it that way.. I'm really not impressed. Show me a build that can be played AS ADVERTISED.

If one is interested in an intimitank build, I suggest Riot's build. It's sold honestly, without the dream-gear, and plays as advertised.

Just because I have an intimitank, doesnt mean I play it now. I take him out for certain quests only. A DPS fighter or barb can excel in many more situations in the current game setting.. just my opinion.... Oh, if you dont want your build picked apart, then dont post 100+ of the same post on somebody's thread.

Mhykke

12-05-2007, 06:28 PM

Out of over 250+ posts more than half were you and Mkykke... constantly spamming the thread, with insults and no new ideas... But I still won the war. I didnt cry, I stood up for what I believed in. I listened to everyone, but had to repeat appx 100 times to you and Mkykke that the build wasnt going to change to your likings. For the 2 or 3 people that actually had good ideas, I gave them props, and explained that it was an alternate way my build can be designed... You however had no good ideas for the build. My build is a solid DPS build built on a Maldini core. It is pretty easy to build and pretty dominating, regardless what you feel. Most importantly ANYBODY can play the build, not much is needed to dominate, just good solid stats, feats, and enhancements. Those are the kind of builds I like.

You want my critique? ok... I think your toon is too underpowered to be an offensive force. Your defense isnt as effective now as it would be if this were Mod 2 or 3. You'll do great in PvP because noone can hit you. In a quest, you get hit, no doubt about it, spend your money on healing... futz around with your defenses (clicky's and pots and whatever else you use) instead of killing. The attitude you've shown on my thread and on this thread show that you cant take criticism well. You have said your build is the ultimate... I dont see it that way.. I'm really not impressed. Show me a build that can be played AS ADVERTISED.

Just because I have an intimitank, doesnt mean I play it now. I take him out for certain quests only. A DPS fighter or barb can excel in many more situations in the current game setting.. just my opinion.... Oh, if you dont want your build picked apart, then dont post 100+ of the same post on somebody's thread.

For the record, I didn't insult you. Go back to your thread, I even defended you once or twice. Criticizing your build isn't insulting. Nobody was saying anything different than I was, even those you praise.

Tanka

12-05-2007, 06:59 PM

If one is interested in an intimitank build, I suggest Riot's build. It's sold honestly, without the dream-gear, and plays as advertised.
Actually, his OP is dated by several mods. I asked if he'd update, but, well, he has yet to.

Also; found here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1377117&postcount=45

No dream gear, eh? Riiiiight.

Intimitanks are not very casual/newbie-friendly. They require lots of top-end loot, raid loot, and effective player abilities. Yes, you can get by without the loot, but you're not going to be an effective Intimitank on Elite settings.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 07:11 PM

For the record, I didn't insult you. Go back to your thread, I even defended you once or twice. Criticizing your build isn't insulting. Nobody was saying anything different than I was, even those you praise.

Of course... you are inaccurate. Several long time posters agreed how good the build is, including one who actually tried it. There are half a dozen who swear by the build on Ghallanda... in fact, not one who has rolled up the build has said they didnt love the build. You simply tried to bring in the "Barbarian is better at everything than a fighter" argument, ad nausea. A good fighter KNOWS they have no trouble beating most Barbs... If you take out all the barbarian comments, borros comments, and a few other egomaniacs, the build was well recieved.

So my build is everything the power gamers hate... that actually makes my day (especially when they get ****ed they cant outkill me in quest:)!

You need to play a build you can excel at playing... all builds are not for all players. Many players try to roll up these POWER builds to find out they cant perform like the seller of the build says he performs.

The greatest thing about fighters is they can be built to do almost anything you want to excel at, AC/DPS/TWF/THF and hundreds of other varieties. Their feats and enhancements are just unmatched. Mixed classes crave for the fighter feats and enhancements. My build takes advantage of this idea, and packages it for a new player or really any player. Good solid DPS. My build produces EXACTLY what it says it does.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 07:13 PM

Actually, his OP is dated by several mods. I asked if he'd update, but, well, he has yet to.

Also; found here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1377117&postcount=45

No dream gear, eh? Riiiiight.

Intimitanks are not very casual/newbie-friendly. They require lots of top-end loot, raid loot, and effective player abilities. Yes, you can get by without the loot, but you're not going to be an effective Intimitank on Elite settings.

I was referring to this post:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116482

That is how you should sell a build in my opinion.

I have read this newest snippet you mentioned... riots one of the best, so Im not surprised if he's running around with what he says he has... either way this newest iteration will no doubt play well with power gamers. However thats not even close to a complete post.. plus this "new" post is 2 months old, and not very helpful in its current state.

Tanka

12-05-2007, 07:24 PM

I was referring to this post:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116482

That is how you should sell a build in my opinion.
Again, I told him the item list is outdated by a long shot, he said it is, and has yet to update.

Later on, when he said he achieved 57 AC standing, and asked what the stats were, he posted the whole shebang.

Dream gear by any stretch of the imagination.

Can you make an Intimitank without "dream gear?" Yes. Will it be effective in Elite content? Most likely not at all, and will serve as more of a lackey than anything else.

Mhykke

12-05-2007, 07:38 PM

You simply tried to bring in the "Barbarian is better at everything than a fighter" argument, ad nausea.

This is just another example of you completely ignoring what people say and just posting random thoughts.

No where, EVER, did I say a barb is better than everything than a fighter. Please find me that quote. My guess is, if you even reply, it'll be some rant, rather than finding me the quote. In fact, I HAVE a fighter, that I rolled AFTER my barbarian. Why would've I done that if I thought barbs were better at everything?

No, in fact, all I simply stated that for your original goals that you stated at the beginning of that thread, a barbarian would've fit those goals better. I have never, in ANY post or thread, suggested one class was better than the other at everything.

Your problems with the OP's build here are partly based on philosophy. You believe intimitanks are "mod 2". Question, why do you have a 65 AC warforged then?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 07:40 PM

Again, I told him the item list is outdated by a long shot, he said it is, and has yet to update.

Later on, when he said he achieved 57 AC standing, and asked what the stats were, he posted the whole shebang.

Dream gear by any stretch of the imagination.

Can you make an Intimitank without "dream gear?" Yes. Will it be effective in Elite content? Most likely not at all, and will serve as more of a lackey than anything else.

Agreed. This is my point exactly. Thats why Borros build and even Riots build are out of reach for 95% of the population... these builds just arent realistic, and Borro and Riot know they arent, for the large majority of the everyday players... Everyday players try to roll a build like this, and they get pounced on.

At least Riot's build did what it said it did when it was originally posted, and for that I commend him. Borros build is entirely unrealistic for most players, and therefore I dont think is very helpful to anyone but the lucky 5% of the realm.

Tanka

12-05-2007, 07:45 PM

Agreed. This is my point exactly. Thats why Borros build and even Riots build are out of reach for 95% of the population... these builds just arent realistic, and Borro and Riot know they arent, for the large majority of the everyday players... Everyday players try to roll a build like this, and they get pounced on.

At least Riot's build did what it said it did when it was originally posted, and for that I commend him. Borros build is entirely unrealistic for most players, and therefore I dont think is very helpful to anyone but the lucky 5% of the realm.
You really aren't reading, are you?

Borr has specifically said "THIS BUILD IS NOT CASUAL/NEWBIE FRIENDLY. IT REQUIRES HIGH END GEAR AND RAID LOOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ELITE CONTENT." Riot's pretty much said the same thing anywhere when someone asks if a new-out-of-the-box player could successfully build a Riott Tank.

In fact, most builds posted now, unless otherwise stated, assume some level of higher quality gear and show as much in the build post.

I know when I post a build, it is for me, not for Average Joe. As a result, it will have several +6 stat items, possibly multiple +1 tomes, and also assume certain drops from time to time.

Is that unfair to newbies? Yes. Completely. No one is arguing that.

Is it realistic for the majority of people who peruse the forums and will comment on the build? I'd say about 95% of the time, it is.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 08:12 PM

You believe intimitanks are "mod 2". Question, why do you have a 65 AC warforged then?

Only one thing worth responding to, so here it goes:

A warforged I feel is the best answer for an intimitank to survive in the newer content. Why?

1) Immunity Against Critical Damage
2) Immunity Against Sleep and Holds
3) Immunity Against Level Drain/Energy Drain
4) Immunity from Fear
5) Immunity from Disease

Hes a fighter/pali/rogue mix. He gets dodge and evasion. Lay on hands. UMD in the mid/upper 30s. High saves = 34/29/26. Mod fort is all you need on a WF. I even have the ability to go heavy fort for 125% if the devs ever mess with fortification... which I am betting they will. And because of his innate immunities, I have more slots open that can go for all kinds of gear. I like builds with variety. Choices are cool, who knows what they are going to find. I like being able to have a wide selection of usable items. Thats how you excel at more situations.

I usually highly dislike WF, but in this one case, I think WF is the only way to go. If my guy wasnt WF I'd never play him.

Mhykke

12-05-2007, 08:23 PM

Only one thing worth responding to, so here it goes:

Did I call it or did I call it (make allegations with no basis in fact)?

And by the way, I apologize if you took offense at anything I posted in your build thread. It was not my intention to get you mad. I posted legit criticisms, and didn't intend anything by them.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 08:27 PM

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 08:34 PM

Did I call it or did I call it (make allegations with no basis in fact)?

And by the way, I apologize if you took offense at anything I posted in your build thread. It was not my intention to get you mad. I posted legit criticisms, and didn't intend anything by them.

Apology accepted. We simply disagree on what makes a good fighter... neither of us are going to bend. its not the end of the world...

Tanka

12-05-2007, 10:16 PM

Tanka I read very carefully. Hey if you actually have the loot you post in your build, then I dont have a problem with it. If you dont you mislead and misadvertise the build, then you are doing good... but your attitude against "95%" of the community is a bit silly. 95% of DDO players arent newbies. See I like making the average Joe a better player. Thats a big part of the fun for me in DDO. I hang wit the powergamers one night, and with good freinds the next night. I am proud that I help out those who need it or ask..

I think these builds do a great disservice if they are only talking to such a small part of our population... especially when you spell it out as you did.
*sigh*

Try again.

Is it realistic for the majority of people who peruse the forums and will comment on the build? I'd say about 95% of the time, it is.
Meaning: most forum users are "powergamers", or at least have access to the gear that your standard powergamer has, whether it be from friends, guildies, or whatever.

Now and then you'll get a newbie on the build forums asking for advice. However, in most threads, it's people who have the gear set aside or can get the gear set aside relatively easily.

So, yes, it's basically telling casual/newbie gamers that the build isn't for them and they should move right along. I'm fine with that assessment. Sure, with some builds, you can drop to +4-5 stat items (they drop frequently enough), standard gear you know you can grind for that isn't raid loot, so on and so forth. However, a lot of times, that's not the intention and really brings the wrong point home.

When I post an "optimal gear" list, that's basically saying "this is his end game, these are the stats he achieves with all this shiny gear". The same, as far as I can tell, applies to just about every other buildmaker out there. They put down some stats, feats, skills, enhancements, then gear. We read the gear, say if something can be better served in another slot, or say if it's outrageous or not.

If I've got 5 unbound +2 tomes in the bank and want to burn them all on a new char, and I post a build here with that saying "I've got 5 unbound +2 tomes in the bank, so don't complain that this is unrealistic because it's realistic for me", then someone complains about the build being unrealistic for new players, well... No kidding! It wasn't designed for new players at all, it was designed for those of us who can farm quests to get the gear we need!

If you don't like that idea, fine, dandy, whatever. However, you're sitting here dumping on someone's thread with made up complaints that don't fit the thread at all.

Get. Over. It.

Borror0

12-05-2007, 10:45 PM

Out of over 250+ posts more than half were you and Mkykke... constantly spamming the thread, with insults and no new ideas... But I still won the war.

What war? I wasn't insulting you, in fact, I didn't get any infraction points, but I'm not quite sure if it is your case or not. Do not answer this, I want my thread to be kept open. But just realise something Leslie, I don't mind discussing a build openly, and trying to improve it. However, all you're doing is saying my build is unplayable. This is not the prupose behind the thread, and I'd like to move the discussion elsewhere without having my thread closed.

Now, if you what to discuss this one last time, I will Leslie. I didn't come up with "new idea" becuase you weren't ven answering what I was saying and kept spamming what I assume wrong. I am still firm that one of your two WF/WS path should be removed, if you reread the thread I even proved you that Transmuting would not lower your DPS over the same "Flaming" weapon. You didn't responded that. You said Mhykke and I weren't gringing new ideas, but you were simply the one not even trying to refute our older arguement, I mean beside the whole playstyle blanket statement.

I didnt cry, I stood up for what I believed in. I listened to everyone, but had to repeat appx 100 times to you and Mkykke that the build wasnt going to change to your likings. For the 2 or 3 people that actually had good ideas, I gave them props, and explained that it was an alternate way my build can be designed...

You said that the intend was DPS, many told you it would be better has a barb, then it turned out in a Ftr vs Brb thread for a while. Then, the dust settle down and we then started discussing your fighter, even if you don't want to admit it, that is what we did. We were telling you, over and over again, that this build would acheive better DPS from taking Greater Weapon Specialisation. You didn't listen, you did back yourself with arguments. You didn't explain why it wasn't better, beisde our favorite "playstyle" blanket statement. I told you many ways to improve your build, you didn't explained me why it wasn't any good.

I don't want to discuss your build on my thread, but it seems a part of it is needed so you can understand I'm not out to get you, I tried to improve your build, and you didn't listen. I have nothing agaisnt you, beside you coming on my thread and insulting people.

You however had no good ideas for the build. My build is a solid DPS build built on a Maldini core. It is pretty easy to build and pretty dominating, regardless what you feel. Most importantly ANYBODY can play the build, not much is needed to dominate, just good solid stats, feats, and enhancements. Those are the kind of builds I like.

I prefer build that requires a by of mind, that aren't totally brainless hanck 'n slashing. I like my builds to require concentration. Obviously, you got no interested on the build, you're just here to flame it and me. Why don't you leave the thread. The door is there, I'll even keep it open so it doesn't close on you on the way out. Stop insulting, and I won't mind you staying. :)

You want my critique? ok... I think your toon is too underpowered to be an offensive force. Your defense isnt as effective now as it would be if this were Mod 2 or 3. You'll do great in PvP because noone can hit you. In a quest, you get hit, no doubt about it, spend your money on healing... futz around with your defenses (clicky's and pots and whatever else you use) instead of killing. The attitude you've shown on my thread and on this thread show that you cant take criticism well. You have said your build is the ultimate... I dont see it that way.. I'm really not impressed. Show me a build that can be played AS ADVERTISED.

You know... I do get it. that is what we call natural 20s. It's life, it doesn't mean I get hit 95% of the time, I avoids loads of damage to the group. If you think that a sword and board fighter is a gimp, I could see your arguement about incredibly low DPS, but until you say so, I can tell you that the only think I got behind any Sword and Board fighter is 2 Str and Power Attack. However, I grab aggro with intimitade and avoid so much damage to the group that I more than make up for it. I have finished many fight as the only one standing, because the rest of the group wiped and I was there fighting and keeping myself alive with potions. I'd like to see Aandre do that.

Want a build can be played AS ADVERTISED? Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1388663#post1388663). :D

If one is interested in an intimitank build, I suggest Riot's build. It's sold honestly, without the dream-gear, and plays as advertised.

Riot's build OP hasn't been updated in ages now. Mine is, by far, much more complete.

Riot is much less talkative and goes in far less details than I do. We offer two different while similar path to Intimitanking. My build is much better on many sides. Higher Intimidate, higher saves, similar HPs, higher DPS, same current AC but higher potential. Riot has advantage over Borror. he is much more versatile and adaptable, but I get the highest numbers. Like I said in the OP, Riot's build is far from a gimp, and so is mine. You clearlyhave an issue with me if you say that my build is lesser to Riot's.

And, honestly, I don't see the big deal with the gear. Every build will have gear posted, so you can see what it can do. The odds of it being the gear you'll have for that guy are pretty small. The poster might have used rarer gear or more common than what you have access to. No nig deal, you'll do the adjustement yourself. I've said the gear is not for everyone, posters have proved that the build can be effective without the whole list. When will you realise that?

Just because I have an intimitank, doesnt mean I play it now. I take him out for certain quests only. A DPS fighter or barb can excel in many more situations in the current game setting.. just my opinion....

Because it is not as easy does not mean it is not viable.

Oh, if you dont want your build picked apart, then dont post 100+ of the same post on somebody's thread.

I wopuldn't mind Shade or Norg coming here again and talking aobut it, they will bring real arguement and will not fear my thread closed, you know you can get really insultive when provoked, you admited it yourself. So please, watch yourself.

Of course... you are inaccurate. Several long time posters agreed how good the build is, including one who actually tried it. There are half a dozen who swear by the build on Ghallanda... in fact, not one who has rolled up the build has said they didnt love the build. You simply tried to bring in the "Barbarian is better at everything than a fighter" argument, ad nausea. A good fighter KNOWS they have no trouble beating most Barbs... If you take out all the barbarian comments, borros comments, and a few other egomaniacs, the build was well recieved.

No, sorry. Cold Steele, that played the original version by Maldini even said himself that the biuld was a gimp. Not in the sense that it was unplayable, but in the sense that it was purposely making itself worse. Staying far from its full potential. Many poster said that this wasn't a good fighter. I'd quote you post to prove it to you, but it is forbiden, and honeslty, I rather we stop arguing about this now.

So my build is everything the power gamers hate... that actually makes my day (especially when they get ****ed they cant outkill me in quest:)!

I think that nay good layer can outkill you with a better fighter build and also be more useful to the group with Trips, Stuns and others. Maybe get less held/commanded because of higher saves. Anyway, you get the idea. Be less than a barbarian-wannabe and do something unique to fighters. ;)

You need to play a build you can excel at playing... all builds are not for all players. Many players try to roll up these POWER builds to find out they cant perform like the seller of the build says he performs.

Of course, this is why I say to nver take a bout out of the forums. I'm saying that to anyone, and I've said it many times. If you want to make any modification to my build, come and talk to me. I'll listen to your concerns/preference and see what it gives. Now, if you're concerned about players wasting their time on a build they won't enjoy playing... well that is rather insulting to them. I think they know themselves better than you know them. Let them decide.

The greatest thing about fighters is they can be built to do almost anything you want to excel at, AC/DPS/TWF/THF and hundreds of other varieties. Their feats and enhancements are just unmatched. Mixed classes crave for the fighter feats and enhancements. My build takes advantage of this idea, and packages it for a new player or really any player. Good solid DPS. My build produces EXACTLY what it says it does.

Your build does less damage than many fighter can do. I've said it, I've proved it. The day you have gotten GWS, I'll stop arguing that your build is lesser in DPS, and I'll start saying that you wasted tons of feats for more damage 5% of the time.

Agreed. This is my point exactly. Thats why Borros build and even Riots build are out of reach for 95% of the population... these builds just arent realistic, and Borro and Riot know they arent, for the large majority of the everyday players... Everyday players try to roll a build like this, and they get pounced on.

So what? A lot of players plays it and are inspirred by my post, why should i remove it???:confused:

So what if a player cannot build the build because he lacks th gear? It's life. I think he and I would still be able to be friends.

At least Riot's build did what it said it did when it was originally posted, and for that I commend him. Borros build is entirely unrealistic for most players, and therefore I dont think is very helpful to anyone but the lucky 5% of the realm.

Well, if I'm helpful to 5% of the players, that is a lot. You know, I can't wait to see you post on the "build by request" posts. I mean, they will probably be useful to one person...:rolleyes:

Tanka I read very carefully. Hey if you actually have the loot you post in your build, then I dont have a problem with it. If you dont you mislead and misadvertise the build, then you are doing good... but your attitude against "95%" of the community is a bit silly. 95% of DDO players arent newbies. See I like making the average Joe a better player. Thats a big part of the fun for me in DDO. I hang wit the powergamers one night, and with good freinds the next night. I am proud that I help out those who need it or ask..

I think these builds do a great disservice if they are only talking to such a small part of our population... especially when you spell it out as you did.

I sell it as hard to gear up? Why don't you get it?:confused:

I'm not doing a great disservice. Can't play it, don't. Any newbie trying to build an intimitank will have the "hard to gear" warning, so your arguement, once again, doesn't work.

Trust me, I enjoy helping others, heck, this is why I'm maining the wiki alive.

Apology accepted. We simply disagree on what makes a good fighter... neither of us are going to bend. its not the end of the world...

Same here, I never meant to insult you. I just disagree with your statements.

I still think you're fighter would be much better with the modification I suggested, but eh, that is life.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 10:54 PM

*sigh* most forum users are "powergamers".

Make that a double... you dont need to lecture to me... I've been playing this game since beta... and started playing RPGs since the C64, and no thats not an mp3 file format! I know what you are saying.... but its you who really doesnt get my point.

There are more people that come to the forums than you think... and many are not power gamers... However, they get dissuaded pretty quickly and one can only wonder why. I hear it from quite a few players. They need a place to learn. They need builds they can play. And they should have a friendly forum they can come to whenever they need to ask a question without feeling they are going to be called a noob or a gimp. Game longevity relies on a tight gamers community, and this elitist BS that this is a forum for the select few is anti-DDO and anti-gamer at its core. If you dont like my opinion, too bad.

I dont think you really disagree Tanka. Youve seemed pretty level headed in the posts Ive seen you write...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-05-2007, 11:45 PM

Borro I'll give you kudos for the wiki. Why? Because your... opinion... is left out of it. Its straight forward and well written, and certainly a lot of hard work.

As for your opinion of my build, you never did understand it. Your understanding of the Maldini build is severely lacking. Who cares if Cold Stele played it and said it was gimp? He just never played it, or couldn't play it correctly. I'd gamble that Maldini's DPS builds are played by more players than any other DPS builds, and by a large margin. It is clearly the most playable, balanced and one of the most effective DPS cores in the game. Most importantly, its playable by the large majority of the community. Many people I play with laughed at your comments, sorry.

You on the other hand, hype your build by beating up on others. You use the word gimp for a lot of people. Im gimp, Maldinis gimp... Your build doesnt look any better by putting down Maldini or myself. Our builds do two different jobs. I do mines exceptionally well... thank you. D&D is about bringing people together and having a good time, not calling people gimps. You really need to lighten up and see the build for yourself without splurging your opinion about something you have such a lack of understanding in..

Specin in both slashing and bludgeoning opens opportunity for more weapons for more situations. The fact is most melee's cant outkill me, or come anywhere close, because they dont have the right weapon. I can swap out a bludge feat for GWS slashing whenever I like... its my build, my call. When my weapons narrow out, I might think about GWS Slashing, but for now I have some awefully good slashing and bludgeoning weapons.

Yes I like Riots build better than yours. For quite a few reasons in fact...

When will you understand that the only players that are "gimp" are the ones that think they are better than someone else. See the difference is, when Im playing and someones asks me how I built my toon, I tell em, I enjoy helping out the 95% of the community that is often forgotten about on this forum.

Obitus

12-05-2007, 11:49 PM

This is just another example of you completely ignoring what people say and just posting random thoughts.

He still has yet to establish that this build absolutely requires the uberest loot available to be playable. Borror said straight up that intimitanks are very gear-dependent, and that's true, but multiple people have pointed out that the AC breakdown really doesn't suffer all that much with a more prosaic item selection.

The numbers have been posted, Leslie. If you're inclined to refute them, then you should, because these disjointed rants aren't making your case for you.

It's also interesting that Leslie thinks Riott's is a better starter build; if anything, a Human pure Fighter is more gear-reliant, in terms of defensive clout, than a Dwarf with a Paladin splash. Just by being a Dwarf, Borror has a +4 AC bonus against most of the harder-hitting and higher-attack-bonus mobs in the game (giants, ogres, trolls). Just by being a Dwarf, he has a +2 (enhanceable to +5) bonus to saves versus spells, a +4 bonus to Balance, and access to far more hitpoints via CON and Toughness enhancements. Add to that the Paladin splash, and he has a further +1 standing bonus to AC from his aura.

I'm not saying that Borror's build is necessarily better; I just find Leslie's logic flawed, or poorly thought-through. It almost seems as if he'll say any old thing just to be contrarian.

If you have a philosophical issue with Intimitanks, then that's fine. Reasonable people can disagree on that sort of thing. But that's a point you make once in a given thread (if at all), and then leave it out of respect for those who might enjoy playing the build. Gear dependency is a total non-issue; Borror conceded the point before you even started posting here.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 12:28 AM

It's also interesting that Leslie thinks Riott's is a better starter build; if anything, a Human pure Fighter is more gear-reliant, in terms of defensive clout, than a Dwarf with a Paladin splash. Just by being a Dwarf, Borror has a +4 AC bonus against most of the harder-hitting and higher-attack-bonus mobs in the game (giants, ogres, trolls). Just by being a Dwarf, he has a +2 (enhanceable to +5) bonus to saves versus spells, a +4 bonus to Balance, and access to far more hitpoints via CON and Toughness enhancements. Add to that the Paladin splash, and he has a further +1 standing bonus to AC from his aura.

Personally, I think Warforged, because of their immunities, are superior to both humans and dwarfs for a tank... If nothing else, WF require far less gadgets. When you splash in pali and rogue you really have something that is immune to just about everything.

However, I liked THE WAY Riott posted his build originally. No dream-gear... and showed how to play it. I like the fact he posted a build that back then anyone can build and play. His build made a lot of sense for the content that was out then. In October he tried reposting his build, but it lies incomplete. I think more than I would like to see the Riott build of today. Obviously it will need to be more gear dependant than it was when he originally posted it.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 12:39 AM

Borro I'll give you kudos for the wiki. Why? Because your... opinion... is left out of it. Its straight forward and well written, and certainly a lot of hard work.

Thanks, and that is the intended purpose: offering objective information.

As for your opinion of my build, you never did understand it. Your understanding of the Maldini build is severely lacking.

Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that you learn a lot on a build from playing it, learn to do new things, get new ideas.

In fact, even told you I didn't understand your build's purpose. I simply don't see the need of two specilisation when one is enough. Of course, there are time where Blunt is a little better, but most of the time Slashing is much better. Taking the two roads mgith become more isnteresting once they raise the cap, as you'll get both GWS too, so your DPS will be at its highest. Right now, you're "forced" to not take GWS:S because you want to be good with Blunt too. This is my main complain about the build. You spent feat into things that weren't as valuable as others. I feel that many other feats would have served you better. I have named quite a few in the past, so I won't do it one more time. I know you would have already changed it if you would have agreed with me.

A lot of your arguement are comparison with others, saldy, those are not valid to me. That sad truth is that most players aren't that great. If you compare yourself to friends and guildies, then it's good. You know how strong they are and how well they fair in quests as you have played with them really often and, most of all, you know how good of a player they are. However, if you compare yourself to PuGies, it's not really a good arguement. You have probably palyed with them once. Maybe it was a bad day, or a bad quest. Maybe they had bad gear, maybe they weren't using the right weapon because they didn't know what to use. You said in the past you carry 20 weapons, that means you can adpat yourself much better than most players. I do the same, I carry a load of Gtr Bane, a Vorpal, a Disruptor, a Smiter, a +5 Flaming Dwarven Axe of Pure Good (for when I don't have a Grt Bane because that sub-type is too rare or when the mobs are too diverse), a Cloudburst for when AC means nada. I adjust myself pretty well. But, that is not an arguement here. It's playstyle, it does not make your build better or worse.. just makes you a better player and a more useful addition to a party.

Like I said many time Leslie, you seem to be a good player. Cowdenicus told me you were doing your job really well. This is not what we're discussing. We were discussing on your thread ways to improve your build. I had the impression that your buld woudl gain more out of other feats. I understand your opinion might differ, but you must acknowledge my opinion and critism is valid. If you still want to discuss your build, we can take it to another thread as long as you beleive we can keep it civil. However, this is my thread and I wish it to stay open and I would like it to remain about my build, not yours. ;)

You on the other hand, hype your build by beating up on others. You use the word gimp for a lot of people. Im gimp, Maldinis gimp... Your build doesnt look any better by putting down Maldini or myself. Our builds do two different jobs. I do mines exceptionally well... thank you. You really need to lighten up and see the build for yourself without splurging your opinion about something you have such a lack of understanding in..

I never uped mine by saying toehrs were gimp, unless I meant it. I argued with Shade, but never said Axer was a gimp. A Sheep would come here and argue that Borror doesn't contribute, I'd not say his bard is a gimp. Impaqt would disagree with me, I wouldn't say his rogue is a gimp. I think my build is better than Riot's, otherwise, why would I play mine? However, I never said Riott was a gimped toon. Why? Because it's all trade ofs and a matter of preference. I can see what Riot prefers in his build. I'll be honest I simply can't see what you like so much about Blunt spec and I even showed that, mathematicly, you'll always come out with higher DPS. I don't mind being explained why it is better, as long as you keep it polite and to tell me to "Walk this way, talk this way... just gimme a [kiss]" and such comments. I don't mind the instults, I got an hard skin. However, I've got yet gotten a single infraction point, and I'd liek to keep it that way. When I say something, I mean it. You must undestand the context/meaning in which "gimp" was used. As you've probably noticed, the word gimp is often used out of its original meaning which would be somewhere around the lines of "Totall useless and unplayable." However, on these forums, this words is also used a lot as "Underpowered and easily improvable."

I never said that the build was total junk, just that there were parts that could be improved.

Specin in both slashing and bludgeoning opens opportunity for more weapons for more situations. The fact is most melee's cant outkill me, or come anywhere close, because they dont have the right weapon. I can swap out a bludge feat for GWS slashing whenever I like... its my build, my call. When my weapons narrow out, I might think about GWS Slashing, but for now I have some awefully good slashing and bludgeoning weapons.

I understand your arguement Les, but like I said, comparing yourself to other melees doesn't cut it. You're probably better geared than most of them, we're talking about gear, not build.

I understand the whole arguement about having access to more weapons but I can't imagine the DPS difference to be the huge, honeslty and I assume that over 90% of the time, you'll use slashing.

Yes I like Riots build better than yours. For quite a few reasons in fact...

I'd just like to make the following clear:

I don't think I'm better that Borror is better than Riott. I simply prefer Borror, he is the character I built myself and he is made the way I wanted him to be. For these reasons, I'll always defend Borror over Riott, but I do and probably always will see Riott as a wonderful build. Like I said in the OP, he is the one that inspired Borror, he is a great build. I'd be pretty stupid to inspire myself out of a gimp. ;)

When will you understand that the only players that are "gimp" are the ones that think they are better than someone else. See the difference is, when Im playing and someones asks me how I built my toon, I tell em, I enjoy helping out the 95% of the community that is often forgotten about on this forum.

Les, I enjoy also helping the non-powergamers to understand and get better. I have the wiki, I am very actiuve on the Newbie Q&A Forums (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42), those that know me in-game knows that I don't midn standing there and ehlping with builds. I have stood there explained someone what D&D is for 7 hours in a row, how it works. She didn't even know what Str did... she had a an idea, but nowehere near the knowledge of the game she has now. She asked me many questions after that, and that how her and I became really good friends. I have lead a guild for a long while and you have no idea of how much I helped my guild mates with their build, answered all their questions. I always answer other players interroagation when they ask in-game. However, all of this is irrevelant in this thread. It doesn't matter if you or I help others. Fact is, this thread helped people with their build. Not 100% of the community, but if I helped 5 people, then this thread served.

You may think I'm advertising my build, making it sound like it's awesome... but I'm not. I only posted this because they asked for it, I got a bunch of PMs about it, so I posted it assuming that others could use of my knowledge on intimitanks. so far, I have not been proven wrong. I have inspired Impaqt his own tank. I have two friends that made a Borror after seeing him in action and I've gotten a few tells asking me for my opinion. I don't care if you think I'm not helping the community, because I know you're wrong.

If you're saying I sugar-coat the whole thing, then you're wrong. I could list my build's weak point, but that would be palin silly. Others seem to taking pleasure in doing it for me. ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 04:44 AM

You may think I'm advertising my build, making it sound like it's awesome... but I'm not. I only posted this because they asked for it, I got a bunch of PMs about it, so I posted it assuming that others could use of my knowledge on intimitanks.

I think if you had posted this comment instead of the hyperbowl of negative comments you've posted about my build I would have been a lot easier on you in my thread and in yours. See what you said in this quote? Thats exactly why "I" posted my build. I posted it because I was asked by quite a few folks in Ghallanda to do so. They wanted the results I had. It is a very popular build in Ghallanda, regardless what some fellow powergamers think.

My goal was to help the non-power gamers build a powerful DPS fighter they can play effectively. For those folks, specing in slashing and bludgeoning means they can use a greater dwarf bane weapon faster than someone else. They get to use a transmuter first. They dont have to wait... I have a transmuting maul of greater dwarf bane that hits for pretty sick damage... +4 icy burst maul of bone breaking thats great. They are just as effective, used on the right foes, as slashing (when you spec in bludgeoning)... I plan on specing in GWS Slashing, but not until the balance of my weaponry switches to the like of 90% slashing as you were suggesting. So far, that simply hasnt happened. Mauls are 2 handed weapons, and that makes them quite effective since I have GTHF, you know why your build works, but I know why my build works.

I knew full well the power gamers would blast it... but I've got some pretty tough skin, actually upon checking I don't even think it is skin.... :) If a few players weren't so vicious Id post more builds, but I already know that most of my builds wouldn't be accepted by the "power gaming community" and thats ok. I can live with that. I'll continue to help out the largest part of the DDO community (the non power gamers) on a one on one basis, where one's opinion is more respected.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 05:33 AM

I think if you had posted this comment instead of the hyperbowl of negative comments you've posted about my build I would have been a lot easier on you in my thread and in yours. See what you said in this quote? Thats exactly why "I" posted my build. I posted it because I was asked by quite a few folks in Ghallanda to do so. They wanted the results I had. It is a very popular build in Ghallanda, regardless what some fellow powergamers think.

My goal was to help the non-power gamers build a powerful DPS fighter they can play effectively.

So did we, we posted our views on how "we" think a DPS fighter should be built. You made some "non-powergaming" choices, and didn't want to acknowledge them. That was the only problem there was.

Personnally, I never had trouble getting good weapons, as a newbie... but different people, different road traveled eh? ;)

You point, while not being mine, is valid, you just got to make it clear and explain the conclsuion. You took a descision about something for a reason. We decide to take another decision for different reason(s). I can respect that, but the difference must be explain and accepted. If you would have conceded that your build wasn't reaching as high DPS as he could have with total slashing, but, because of the weapon you had, you chose to take blunt too. And then, explain that you are posting it this way becuase you think that, while this might be temporary, newbie might enjoy taking blunt and slashing at first, to then switch to only slashing once they acquire all the weapon.

This would have probably been a better way to say it. ;)

For those folks, specing in slashing and bludgeoning means they can use a greater dwarf bane weapon faster than someone else.

Totally the worse expample you could have used, but I get your point.

I would have probably talked about Ohase Hammer is some kind of nice named blunt weapon.

II plan on specing in GWS Slashing, but not until the balance of my weaponry switches to the like of 90% slashing as you were suggesting.

You know, you'd have said that on your thread, think it'd have been a few page shorter. ;)

ISo far, that simply hasnt happened. Mauls are 2 handed weapons, and that makes them quite effective since I have GTHF, you know why your build works, but I know why my build works.

In my experience, Mauls are much much harder to come by. Cheaper, but rarer.

I have yet, in my whole life, to loot a decent Maul. I've looted a few decent Greataxe so far, a few Falchions and a bunch of good Greatswords, that was part pf my arguements. You get falchion, greataxe and greatsword from THF. You get maul and greatclub from Maul... and both are lesser DPS than any slasher... and even lower DPS than Greataxe. Of course, if you got a nice collection of Blunt weapon, you can specialise in Blunt instead, like someone takes Bastard Swords.

There is a way to play with powergamers, even as a casual gamer Les. You just gotta learn it.

The problem that was present on your thread, was that you were defending it as if it made your build better. As if your DPS was much better and that slowly gathering more and more slashers would be a better idea and that blunt would be, one day, removed from the build. That this is just a way to increase your DPS meanwhile. You were bringing arguements that this was a matter off "platstyle" which was a vague and unclear arguement. When you were asked to elaborate on that, you usually avoid to answer or you make a too shrot reply.

If you want to avoid such problems, there is only one way. You got to make yourself clear. [eaten by cube]. In this world, no matter how clever the message is, what counts is what other understand. There are ways to post a build and not get flamed by the "powergamers". You got to make it clear from the start, you got explain why you did such or such choice if they are not the "best ones". So if you decide to specialise in both slash and blunt, you got to tell us, from the start that you're doing it because you have really nice Mauls but that you also got very nice Greataxes. That you want to use both of them efficiently, on a fighter. Then, you must not try to deny that those aren't the best choices to make if you got all the Greataxes on the world before you. Just say yes, and the trade will be 2 pages.. 3 long at most.

Post all the builds you want, I agree with you that we could always use more build. However, if you know what part of the build will be problematic, that will be discussed a lot... explain the reason. and then, don't try to deny the other possibilities. You tried to get the last word on your thread, that got you trouble.

There are many ways to avoid trouble on these forums, being clear is the first step.

Now that this is lceared, could we go back on topic? :D

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 06:23 AM

If you want to avoid such problems, there is only one way. You got to make yourself clear. Some of your points are valid, however, they are formulated so shortly that it makes you plain stupid.

Ok Im going to go REAAAL SLOWWW so you understand. Dont EeeeeVEN talk down to me like I dont know how to play this game.

I explained throughout my thread the reasons I built "The Stout" Weapon Master the way I did. You just couldn't understand. I replied dozens of times to try to clear it up for you, yet you failed to comprehend the most basic of DPS concepts... and you STILL cant comprehend how they relate to this game. So you now resort to calling ME stupid? Who do you think you are? I dont think so. I am much more a "power gamer" than you know. I just dont act like an complete know-all. You need further direction? You can take your self-implied greatness elsewhere. You are barking up the wrong tree here. You are no better a player than me or many in the realm. You simply THINK YOU ARE.

You are a bad builder, in my opinion. This build is frankly insignificant to the vast majority of DDOdom. It is not the best way to build a tank either... its just another way. I prefer Riot's and Maldini's approach to yours. I took mine down a different path than you did and have higher AC, much better saves, and immunities. As for my DPS dude, "The Stout" Weapon Master is one of the better DPS fighters in Ghallanda. He's performed his duties much better than I expected, and was a joy to build... and he's still getting better... Ya know whats funny, my guy kicks arse WITHOUT any dream loot. And I know you cant say the same about your gear-dependant build.

I think your type of personality is bad for this game. I think your attitude, as you display here, makes you one that would be quite unpopular to the vast majority of players I play with. Furthermore, your words would instantly get you booted from the guilds I'm in. You are completely out of line here.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 06:48 AM

Sorry Leslie, but that was actually a typo... a really bad one, at a really bad place. The actual wording for this was "make you look" plain stupid. I have corrected post you quoted me to reflect that. I never meant to say you were stupid. sorry, my mistake, wasn't intended.

I'm editing this post to make it clear. Just wanted to make that clear right away.

EDIT: What I meant is that staying unclear made you look stupid. Instead of going into details and explaining your thoughts, you were barely saying a few words which could be usually sumed up to "I'm better, I know better." You have shown, at the post 119 of this thread, that you actaully knew what you were doing, which wasn't the case in your Stout thread. I don't think you are stupid, I just think you express yourself poorly, that your words don't reflect your thought. You just showed me that you had reasons to do so, others than the "it's my playstyle". You actually explain why, what you were exactly gaining for it. That is what I meant.

I never insult someone, I just find it is useless and leads to nowhere. I can say that someone is stupid, talknig about that person, but I'll never say it to that person directly. Insults lead you nowhere, and if I was to insult someone, the last place I would do it would be here. You know, in case you haven't realsied yet, I don't really want to earn myself infraction points. ;)

I will say that I did not read the rest of you last post past "So you call ME stupid" as it would be meant to something that I did not mean. Now, if you want to answer my last post as you would, go ahead. If you decide to stay mad, fine. But know I actually did not meant to call you stupid, I'm not stupid enough to do that here, even with you, I know how sensitive you are on the "Report" button.

Sorry again Leslie, it wasn't meant. Please accept my appologies.
That was really stupid of me and it makes me wish I would have proof-read slower,
But there is nothing more I can do that to say sorry.

Borror0

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 06:56 AM

Borror0

12-06-2007, 07:01 AM

You are not right.

Right about what?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 07:04 AM

Right about what?

You are just not right. If you need help with that sentence, then sorry, I really think you should seek some... assistance.

Cashiry

12-06-2007, 07:05 AM

The Soap Opera Continues....

Anyways back on topic

I personally like many aspects of this build, have incorporated a few into the build I am planning when I return from over seas, well after the lvl cap.

IMO an Intimitank will be needed at higher levels, you will need a person to keep the aggro, so the barb's/dps spec'd fighters and Arcane/Divine casters can do their job effectifely.

I could be wrong, but the highest sustainable AC in the game without raid items is currently a 55AC, so items should not be much of an issue other than the chattering ring/seal of earth(if your counting those). A 55 AC is a very good number for an intimitank in todays game. We will be seeing higher AC items come out in the future,(raid or static loot).

Items can be gotten quite easily through many channels now(compared to when I pulled mine through Co6 and Giant Cave runs), an intimitank doesnt always need +5 Mithral Full Plate as seen below.

Example without raid items on AC based on Modified 20 Dex(13 Base +1 Tome +6 Item).
Dwarven 11 Paladin 3 Fighter

Armor Class at Lvl 14
10: Base
14: Black Dragon Plate(Max Dex Bonus 1)
9: +5 Mithral Tower Shield
3: Dodge (Dodge Feat/Chaosgarde Bracers)
5: Deflection (Protection)
0: Natural Armor Bonus
5: DEX Bonus: Dwarven AM III, Fighter AM I, Fighter TSM I
5: Combat Expertise (Triggered)
1: Paladin Aura
3: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
55: Sustained Base AC add in the 2 raid Items that boosts AC---Chattering Ring/Seal of Earth(58/61AC)

Self Buffed
3: Barkskin Potion(if no seal of earth)
1: Dodge (Haste Potion)
2: Blocking (while actively blocking)
1: Weapon with "of parrying" suffix
62: Self Buffed AC(65 with chattering ring)

Black Dragon Plate Armor: Easily attainable with the mass buyouts on AH's for 25 scales....

Intimidate take away Circle of Hatrd for the intimidate you lose 2 to intimidate, +11 intimidate items are pretty easy to come by on the AH.

Gathering info from BorrorO, Riot and Drexxan's(pally forumn) builds, I have come up with my own unigue build for a lvl 16 intimitank, but am going to have to wait to lvl up, after I return frm deployment to work on, also am waiting to see what is implemented with the new Mod(other than Force of Personality). Anyways builds like this can lead to better builds, The limits are endless in DDO and the better ideas floating around the better. Once I see what happens with Mod 6, I will post my build for critigue....

Anyways thanks for your build Borror...it inspires other builds

just my 2 coppers worth...

Cash

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 07:15 AM

but am going to have to wait to lvl up, after I return frm deployment to work on,

Soap operas are meaningless... albeit entertaining sometimes. I wish you the absolute BEST, my brotha, overseas! You make America proud. You are a real hero.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 07:18 AM

You are just not right. If you need help with that sentence, then sorry, I really think you should seek some... assistance.

hehe, you tell me this, but you change the post I quoted, how silly.

Anyway, I was simply saying that you should express yourself better, period. Take time to explain your thoughts. Maybe you think you are being clear, but you're not. We are not in your head, you cannot understand how your head works.

You argue the same thing with me for I don't know how many pages. The fact that I understood just now, after the first thread was locked out, means that there was a problem on your end. I was not the only one to not get your point. Sorry, if it sounds rude. Seems like your skin isn't as hard as you said it is. I appologied myself, sadly, I cannot do more. Theere is a mistake between looking stupid, and being stupid. On thsi forums, it is all on the way you say things. Two could mean the same message, but say of two different ways. One migth get infraction point and/or be laughed at. The other one would be praised and listenned to.

Your point is true, some player cannot afford the gear for many builds, their build should be built accordingly. If you would have stated that from the start, we would have not had the argued we had on your other thread. If you really want to keep this discussion, please take it to PMs. It is between you and I. No one else needs to witness

Borror0

12-06-2007, 07:21 AM

Anyways thanks for your build Borror...it inspires other builds

Thanks Cash, I'm looknig forward seeing what you've came up with. Will it be paladin-based? I'm asking that since you talked about Drexxan's.

Cashiry

12-06-2007, 07:33 AM

Thanks Cash, I'm looknig forward seeing what you've came up with. Will it be paladin-based? I'm asking that since you talked about Drexxan's.

Ya, its going to be a 11 Paladin/5 Fighter build, and planed out to lvl 20 being 12 Paladin 8 Fighter.

I have all the Items ready for the build, other than the 1 raid item I would need.(chattering ring)
+11 Intimidate Ring
25 Black Scales
Chaosguarde
+5 Mith Tower
+2 wis tome(need it to hit 12 wis to cast lvl 2 spells)
+6 Dex gloves

Just will need to run Titan for the Chat ring, that would give me a 58 Base sustained AC. Same ac breakdown I used in earlier post.
Saves will be in the mid/ 30's buffed(will be taking Force of Personality due to low wisdom starting)

When I post same I will show the Max potential build and a more moderate build(easily attained items)

Anyways may post it sooner than later on Pally Forumns. If I get some more spare time....

Cash

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 07:34 AM

If you really want to keep this discussion, please take it to PMs. It is between you and I. No one else needs to witness

Now thats funny, you didnt have the decency to follow this advice on my thread... if I wish to critique your build or defend your heated and pointed attacks, I'll do so right at the source.. You gave your advice, which would have altered the builds main purpose, and was denied. Your ego couldnt handle that. Tooo baddddddd!

You are trying to be coy with your "stupid" comments, but your intent is obvious and casts a shadow on your maturity level, not mine. I have no problem defending my character in the game or in real life. You need to take your personal attacks elsewhere. You are proving to look quite like a school child... and a very very young one at that. A real apology would have been nice, not the stupid/look stupid joke of an apology.

Now I think I have some spare lolly pops around here somewhere....

Cashiry

12-06-2007, 07:36 AM

Soap operas are meaningless... albeit entertaining sometimes. I wish you the absolute BEST, my brotha, overseas! You make America proud. You are a real hero.

Thanks Les.... I apreciate it..

Borror0

12-06-2007, 07:38 AM

Ya, its going to be a 11 Paladin/5 Fighter build, and planed out to lvl 20 being 12 Paladin 8 Fighter.

Sounds cool to me, I tried something similar with my first toon... but it was my toon if you see what I mean. ;)

Looking forward to seeing it. :)

Borror0

12-06-2007, 07:46 AM

Now thats funny, you didnt have the decency to follow this advice on my thread... if I wish to critique your build or defend your heated and pointed attacks, I'll do so right at the source.. You gave your advice, which would have altered the builds main purpose, and was denied. Your ego couldnt handle that. Tooo baddddddd!

The build's main purpose, as far as I'm concerned, was DPS. So no, it wouldn't have altered DPS.

Now, I will ignore any comment about your build made on my thread, anything regarding this will be considerated a free bump as it totally irrevelant to the discsussion. I hope other posters will do the same.

You are trying to be coy with your "stupid" comments, but your intent is obvious and casts a shadow on your maturity level, not mine. I have no problem defending my character in the game or in real life. You need to take your personal attacks elsewhere. You are proving to look quite like a school child... and a very very young one at that.

Whatever, I was trying to give you an advice. Don't listen to it.

Never said to meant you were stupid, but I have no trouble saying that you look stupid when you were making blanket statement. You've shown yourself more clever than some of your post have let us see in the past. Why? Because you stopped to "look tuff" and actually explained your thoughts so that we could understand.

I said this since you told me you had hard skin, if you could even consider skin.

Seems like you were wrong.

Sorry again, my intend was not to insult, not stupid enough for this.

And yes, this is also PM material, I'll also ignore the sequel of this discussion on this thread. If you want to take it to PMs, no problem. But don't derail my thread any further.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 08:07 AM

don't derail my thread any further.

You know what you did when I asked you to stop derailing my thread? You said it wasnt MY THREAD, since it was posted in a public forum. Then you kept right on derailing it. :)

It seems awfully humorous to me that you are now requesting me to do the same on your thread.

Sorry, but when you call someone "stupid" in public, regardless what you "meant" by it, you need to take responsibility for it. Whether you run back to the blackboard and erase the word before the teacher sees it, your still wrote it on the blackboard. You made it public when you used that word. Maybe if you didnt use those words, or at least offered a genuine apology without coy remarks... I would have took you at your word.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 08:31 AM

You know what you did when I asked you to stop derailing my thread? You said it wasnt MY THREAD, since it was posted in a public forum. Then you kept right on derailing it. :)

I wasn't derailing your thread, we were discussing your build. Maybe not the way you wanted it, but we were.

Here, we're talking about you and your build. Clearly not the intention of the thread.

The rest of what I have to say in a upcoming PM.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 09:06 AM

I wasn't derailing your thread.

Well if you dont get infraction points for calling someone stupid, there is no point to the infraction system.

And for the record you were talking smack on the last page of my thread, and almost every page before it. You werent discussing the build. You were calling another player names.... like you always do. Gameplay is 50% of any build, 25% items, and 25% build. You can roll the best build in the world - if a person doesn't play the build right, good loot or not, it will be gimped. Gameplay is a MAJOR factor in rolling any build. You show a COMPLETE LACK OF RESPECT for peoples preferences. Peoples personal preferences are not debatable, and the cube has told you that before.... look at the cubes final comments on my page.

You can argue all you want that your build is the best one, but its really not. Riot has a much better understanding of AC, using his shield, and his human advantage than you show here on your build. I've seen you argue unsuccessfully with Riot in several threads. You are just an above average player man... sorry, but you aren't as great as you say you are... I know your ego cringes at the thought... but... I'd play Maldini's warforged or Riots human intimitank before this build anyday, and I actually DO...

Borror0

12-06-2007, 09:13 AM

You can argue all you want that your build is the best one, but its really not. Riot has a much better understanding of AC, using his shield, and his human advantage than you do on your build. I've seen you argue unsuccessfully with Riot in several threads. You are just an above average player... sorry, but you aren't as great as you say you are...

When did I say I was great? Quote me!

What do you mean by "Using his shield"? And "human advantages"? I'd like to know, maybe I'll learn something!:eek:

I know what Riot advantage are over me, just curious to know what you mean by that...

I know your ego cringes at the thought... but... I'd play Maldini's warforged or Riots human intimitank before this build anyday.

hehe, not really. My ego is fine as it is.

I actually think I'm an awful player and I wonder how one can be worse than me... but that is a different subject.

May I ask you why? The only thing you haven't brought yet to this thread is constructive critism, mind sharing? :)

Borror0

12-06-2007, 09:20 AM

Gameplay is 50% of any build, 25% items, and 25% build. You can roll the best build in the world - if a person doesn't play the build right, good loot or not, it will be gimped. Gameplay is a MAJOR factor in rolling any build.

In fact, where did I disgree with you?

PS: Press "Submit Reply" only once you're done saying something please. You just added a whole paragraph to this reply while I was typing.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 09:33 AM

I know what Riot advantage are over me,

Well I'll sidestep that, I know Riot can speak for his own build just fine. I've already told you why I like playing my Warforged build better....

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 09:40 AM

In fact, where did I disgree with you?

PS: Press "Submit Reply" only once you're done saying something please. You just added a whole paragraph to this reply while I was typing.

You disagreed with gameplay being a factor on multiple occasions in my thread...

As for adding to my comment, thats is what the EDIT feature is there for.. hmmm... I see you ran like a schoolboy playing tag in the schoolyard back to your post when I called you out on that "stupid" comment/slip.

Funny how you must always get the last word, if you want to get back to your thread, stop debating whatever problem you had with my build or my choice to play the game the way I see fit....

Borror0

12-06-2007, 09:53 AM

Well I'll sidestep that, I know Riot can speak for his own build just fine. I've already told you why I like playing my Warforged build better....

I still don't get what you mean what you mean by "using his own shield" and I don't think that Riot knows what you meant by that either.

You disagreed with gameplay being a factor on multiple occasions in my thread...

Yes and no.

I said it wasn't a factor when comparing builds. That is the nuance.

Cashiry

12-06-2007, 09:59 AM

Sounds cool to me, I tried something similar with my first toon... but it was my toon if you see what I mean. ;)

Looking forward to seeing it. :)

:cool: Here ya go, feel free to critigue... posted on the Pally Forumns: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128972

Borror0

12-06-2007, 10:04 AM

:cool: Here ya go, feel free to critigue... posted on the Pally Forumns: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128972

Ok, let me check on that!! :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 10:26 AM

I said it wasn't a factor when comparing builds.

Of course it is. DDO game mechanics affect each build in different ways depending on how a build is designed, therefore gameplay is ALWAYS involved. You can compare builds all you want, but before you match a build with a player, you must talk gameplay and is the build really for them. The fact that fighters have so many customizable features (feats/enhancements/all the weapons/items etc), make discussing individual play styles so much more important than a barbarian (which is much more unidimensional), for example. Variety is a beacon to the fighter class...

Borror0

12-06-2007, 10:39 AM

Of course it is.

Don't count on me to argue with you on this this time.

I don't feel like it, and I know where I stand, I made my point clear on your thread. If you don't understand my point of view, go back and read them again... or for all it matters, the ton made ny other posters that were on the same side as me. It's not really important who it is, we all said the same thing.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-06-2007, 10:47 AM

If you don't understand my point of view, go back and read them again... or for all it matters, the ton made ny other posters that were on the same side as me. It's not really important who it is, we all said the same thing.

Incorrect, again. Just a few were as unable to grasp the point of my build. Most got it fairly quickly, the few good comments got very specific feedback... You just had trouble with the concept of the build, and you willingly chose to spam your ideas ad nasea, filling 10 or so pages with your "point of view", regardless how many times I told you that the build was not open for changes in the areas you were trying to drive home. Your ideas were simply not welcome after the 2nd time repeating them.

My build has been played and posted by popular demand by those who were interested. A few forum posters liked the build and the vast majority of power gamers didnt. So what? I can live with that. Especially when I know how the build plays in the game. I actually did the homework for my build, and the build has been working well since almost game launch. Its a tried and true Maldini DPS core thats been game tested by probably hundreds of people. I know my build gets better almost every week. Anyone on Ghallanda that wants to see the build in action can just holla.... I wont BS like you do that its the best, I'll just say it is a really good solid DPS build. And I guarantee I will be calling nobody stupid in MY party.

All I see is you must get the last word in, every time, every issue regardless what the issue.. You failed to do so on my thread, and you wont in yours if you keep on with this "I'm right your wrong" ideology.... Do you wish to argue another 5 or 6 pages?

Borror0

12-06-2007, 01:18 PM

You failed to do so on my thread, and you wont in yours if you keep on with this "I'm right your wrong" ideology.... Do you wish to argue another 5 or 6 pages?

You are right, I won't. For the simple reason that I won't discuss any of it here.

It's out of topic and do not want my thread to get closed. I've tried to make you understand my point of view and tried to understand yours. It worked... for the lenght of a post. You've started to act the same again, sadly. I feel like you want to argue, not discuss. For this reason, I'm simply to avoid anything related to your build or how important "gameplay" is when planning a build. I know that any word that I'll type will be lost. You don't want to hear what I say, so why say anything? You can reply all you want, I'll only reply to what I'll judge related to the discussion.

Now, if you have any critism. If you have any idea on how to improve my build, let me know. But besides, stay away from the thread, you're simply wasting both mine and your time.

Have a nice day.

sigtrent

12-06-2007, 01:56 PM

Leslie, Borrow: You guys clearly both like to go back and forth, I enjoy it to some extent but you havn't actualy been talking abotu builds the last couple pages, just about eachother.

Lesslie, you seem to think you have taken the high ground somewhere here but honestly, looking back at your posts in this thread you are the antagonist here for the most part. A clear point is when Borrow offered an appology for something he said and you just spurned it and kept up the fight. That's a clear give a way when someone wants to fight rather than to discuss and despite your jollyish demener you come across as a man with a dagger hungry for blood. Perhaps you don't mean to be that way, but that's the way you are being.

Riekan

12-06-2007, 03:06 PM

I agree with Sigtrent. For the most part, the two of you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Let it go. Leslie, if you are just posting here to get Borror's blood up, please stop. He did apologize. There are people here who are actually trying to read the relavant parts of this thread. And for Borror, just stop responding to him at all. Don't say you're done and then continue on for 2 more pages. Just be done. If you don't respond to him at all, he'll get bored and go away.

Riekan

12-06-2007, 03:34 PM

In an attempt to get back on topic, I'm going to ask a question for all the Intimitanks out there to chime in on. I've been working on my own version of the intimitank, with aspects of both Borror and Riot melded together. I am currently at level 9, human, with 7 fighter and 2 paladin. I am running with a 26 Str, 18 Dex, 18 Con, and 20 Cha at level 9. With the gear I currently have/wear, I am at a self sustained 50 AC with a barkskin potion. I can spell out the gear/stats/etc if anyone wants them. The AC only goes up from there at 10 and 13 with the gear I already have stored away, and then there's the raid loot to go after.

Once of the best things I like about the build is that I can throw a LoH in combat without taking off combat expertise. I like it so much that I am thinking about taking a 3rd level of Paladin before 14 to get the enhancements for Extra LoH, Bulwark, and Resist of Good, which also up my AC and saves by 1. Given the 3rd level of Paladin, at level 20, 17 fighter/3 paladin doesn't seem like a good break point. So, I was thinking of adding 1 level of rogue. Not planning on going for evasion, I like my MFP. It does open up UMD, rogue trap sense 1 for a little bonus to saves, and a bunch of skill points.

If I were to do this on my current build, I'd take Rogue at 10, which would keep all my skills at full points, I'm not at .5 points right now, then take Paladin 3 at 11, keeping UMD and Intimidate maxed, then go all fighter to 20 putting full points into intimidate, jump, and UMD. If I can get a +3 Int tome, balance would most likely be next on the list.

I realize that this has been discussed to death, but if you want the 3rd level of Paladin, I can't think of a better break point than to add in the one level of rogue. Am I missing something?

sigtrent

12-06-2007, 04:09 PM

I've been looking at the intimi-tanks since they have been getting some debate and I actualy finaly got to play with someone using intimdate (Its a tactic I hardly ever see in actual play).

My wife has a "tactics fighter" who has intimidate although she is hardly specilized in it and we used it in a small group doing the Haven quests on elite. The rogue loved it. I was the cleric and for me it didn't make a big difference but it made healing a bit more predictable.

What seemed to work especialy well is she would use cleave/great cleave with her paralyzer after intimidating and pretty much shut down a whole crowd of monsters.

It seems to me like Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave is a better feat set than WF/WS/GWF for an intimidate character. I'd always take improved crit, but its not a chain feat. The +2 attack/damage seems to pale compared to taking a swipe at everyone around you. A true DPSer will generaly go for TWF or THF in which case the cleaves actualy slow down on target damage, but with sword and shield they are pretty much a pure win for DPS over a small hit/damage bonus, add in the abbility to thow a special effect at a whole group of enemies.. defensive (curse, paralyze etc...) offensive (vorpal, disruption etc...) and it looks even better. And if you want to go pure damage you can whip out a two hander, turn on power attack and go to town!

And if nothing else... it's just sexier!

Borror0

12-06-2007, 05:19 PM

It seems to me like Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave is a better feat set than WF/WS/GWF for an intimidate character.

I'm starting to eye Cleave/Great Cleave as my level 15 and 16 feats, not quite sure yet. My biggest hesitation is the amount of clicking needed plus switching weapon. How does you wife like it?

Borror0

12-06-2007, 05:24 PM

I realize that this has been discussed to death, but if you want the 3rd level of Paladin, I can't think of a better break point than to add in the one level of rogue. Am I missing something?

Well, there are 3 options:

You go 15/3 and wait until you nkow what is coming at level 20 (enhancement-wise).
Splash one rogue for UMD and 1d6 Sneak Attack (for when intimitadte isn't worknig)
Go 16/4 and get Divine Favor. Biggest drawback is the whole CE vs spell casting....

Well actually, you could add a few more of paladin levels, there are a few ppl planning like this and it does seem viable. Blazer's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1440385&postcount=7) on the 12f/2p thread sure is interesting. Since you really like the paladin side of your intimitank, that might be an idea. :)

Lorichie

12-06-2007, 05:35 PM

Well, there are 3 options:

You go 15/3 and wait until you nkow what is coming at level 20 (enhancement-wise).
Splash one rogue for UMD and 1d6 Sneak Attack (for when intimitadte isn't worknig)
Go 16/4 and get Divine Favor. Biggest drawback is the whole CE vs spell casting....

Well actually, you could add a few more of paladin levels, there are a few ppl planning like this and it does seem viable. Blazer's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1440385&postcount=7) on the 12f/2p thread sure is interesting.

After our discussion BorrorO i was thinking of this same thing, question will be and it will have to be decided later, what extra feats will come up as level ups happen. 12/8 or maybe an odd level of something else would give more for me at least than splashing multiples of a third class, or at least it seems so now. Then again the cleave/greatcleave line is also interesting. I have no doubt when the time comes i personally will reroll, but until then im fairly certain the 12/8 will be the direction i will plan for. We'll see how the cards fall as we go.

Rich

sigtrent

12-06-2007, 05:37 PM

I'm starting to eye Cleave/Great Cleave as my level 15 and 16 feats, not quite sure yet. My biggest hesitation is the amount of clicking needed plus switching weapon. How does you wife like it?

She loves it but she plays in ways that would make many of you cringe. She regularly uses TWF without any TWF feats becasue "I can still hit everything anyhow" and indeed she generaly can. She built the character specificaly to use special effect weapons and has about two pages full of weapons. Every greater bane, all the power 5, tripping, stunning, cursing etc etc...

Despite the fact she could outkill many of my characters she rarely does because she enjoy's doing a kind of fighter based CC role more than a DPS role.

Borror0

12-06-2007, 05:51 PM

After our discussion BorrorO i was thinking of this same thing, question will be and it will have to be decided later, what extra feats will come up as level ups happen.

Actually, I feel that the "purity" of many fighters will depends on what feats Turbine has in store for us. I see myself going next level, there are a few that are "fighting" for me to take, there'll always be... but after a while, there might be more to get out there than these feats. Like you said, we'll see hoe the cards fall as we go.

12/8 or maybe an odd level of something else would give more for me at least than splashing multiples of a third class, or at least it seems so now.

Honeslty, I easily see the Monks to be a popular splashing class. At level one, they are +2 to Fort/Reflex/Will and at level 2 they give Evasion, +1 Fort/Reflex/Will and two unkown feats (as I'd be really surprised that Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows make it into the game. Well maybe that Deflect Arrows will be made a ranged attack miss chance but I cannot see how Combat Reflexes would work in DDO. I guess time will tell. :)

Borror0

12-06-2007, 06:01 PM

She loves it but she plays in ways that would make many of you cringe.

I care more about the amount of "twitch" skills/hotbar control that it requires than anything else or if it's simply annoying and that she hates it.

Now, you're saying that she can manage to switch weapon while cleaving. So you're really making want to give it a try. I was really scared that it's too much of a routine to manage. Guess it's mostly a matter of getting used to it. :)

Seems like I'll give it a try... and dump the whole if it's not what I wanted. Now, got to figure out the feat I'll throw out for PA..

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 04:57 AM

Now, you're saying that she can manage to switch weapon while cleaving. So you're really making want to give it a try. I was really scared that it's too much of a routine to manage. Guess it's mostly a matter of getting used to it. :)
Seems like I'll give it a try... and dump the whole if it's not what I wanted. Now, got to figure out the feat I'll throw out for PA..

Thanks Stringent for bringing us back to reality, but Borror0 I just couldn't help my final urge.... since you pounded on me for 10+ pages and this thread but it sounds like you have a GAMEPLAY related decision to be made here that will somehow result in direct correlation to kill count... hmmmmmm SHOCKING!!! :) Moooooooment of silience, please........ :)

In my trials with cleave/greater cleave you can not switch weapons while actually in the act of swinging, only during the lengthy cooldown timers AFTER your swing. If you try getting a jumpstart on your weapon switch your cleave/greatercleave button click will fail... which can prove pretty hurtful/deadly in the heat of battle.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 05:16 AM

Thanks Stringent

I got to admity one thing, you're really good at making puns, whether it is name-calling or not, clever find.

It sounds like you have a GAMEPLAY related decision to be made here that will somehow result in direct correlation to kill count.

Yes, I do.

But it is toally different from the "gameplay" issue we had on your thread. I'm just trying to think if I will be able to play with so many hotkeys.

Just curious, you told me you're going to take slashing out once you get enough slashers, for what feats?

In my trials with cleave/greater cleave you can not switch weapons while actually in the act of swinging, only during the lengthy cooldown timers AFTER your swing. If you try getting a jumpstart on your weapon switch your cleave/greatercleave button click will fail... which can prove pretty hurtful/deadly in the heat of battle.

I actually meant switching weapon between mobs. Mostly from one Greater Bane to another.

And yes, Cleave can be deadly with intimidate.. think of all the mobs, gathered around you. Sounds like fun. ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 06:38 AM

I got to admity one thing, you're really good at making puns, whether it is name-calling or not, clever find.
Oops :) Nah that was late night mistake. I like sigtrent... He'd make a heck of a real life referee! :)

Yes, I do. But it is toally different from the "gameplay" issue we had on your thread. I'm just trying to think if I will be able to play with so many hotkeys.
Hahaha... no no no, you cant have it both ways. Every build has to make its own tweaks/changes etc to play their toon to the best of its ability. DDO's game mechanics are unique, its what differentiates it from PnP (pen and paper)... and you need to adapt your gameplay accordingly. Thats what I did and thats what you are doing here. Ploaying with clickies was exactly what I was talking about. And in my playstyle, I dont like em.

Just curious, you told me you're going to take slashing out once you get enough slashers, for what feats?
I am not taking any slashing feats out. I said I "might" take a bludgeoning feat out, but I'm not convinced as of yet. I like the idea of Quickdraw as a work-around on DDOs slushy weapon switch mechanics and of course GWS:Slashing. Again this is your forum for your build. Im still testing... This is a gameplay choice no doubt about it. And it will affect my toon's contributions.

I actually meant switching weapon between mobs. Mostly from one Greater Bane to another.
Gameplay baby.... you cant come to terms with it! :) This is essentially why Im playing with quick draw... however we cant have it all, currently I position wisely and do my switch... Id like to solve this problem, but not at the cost of creating a new larger problem (such as not having the DPS I do now to eradicate the little buggers).

And yes, Cleave can be deadly with intimidate.. think of all the mobs, gathered around you. Sounds like fun. ;)
Yes my Pali uses Great Cleave and Cleave consecutively to great effect. You can Cleave while your Great Cleave cooldown timer is sleeping.... great in doorways especially..... for my DPS guy ("stout" weapon master) its useless though... during cleaves short delay, im already swinging. Since I have GTHF Im doing damage all around me, WITHOUT clicking, delays, and cooldown timers of any kind.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 07:02 AM

Hahaha... no no no, you cant have it both ways. Every build has to make its own tweaks/changes etc to play their toon to the best of its ability. DDO's game mechanics are unique, its what differentiates it from PnP (pen and paper)... and you need to adapt your gameplay accordingly. Thats what I did and thats what you are doing here. Playing with clickies was exactly what I was talking about. And in my playstyle, I dont like em.

I have thingfs to say here, but I'll keep my mouth shut, don't want derail my thread any further.;)

I am not taking any slashing feats out. I said I "might" take a bludgeoning feat out, but I'm not convinced as of yet. I like the idea of Quickdraw as a work-around on DDOs slushy weapon switch mechanics and of course GWS:Slashing. Again this is your forum for your build. Im still testing... This is a gameplay choice no doubt about it. And it will affect my toon's contributions.

Yeah, well I meant blunt, not slashing, hehe.:o Blame it on a late night mistake.. ;)

For a build that changes weapon really often, like a Strategist, Quickdraw works wonder. Also, for people that fights mostly with Greater Bane, it's also a good choice. Sometimes, you have to adapt your build to the gear you have at hand.

Yes my Pali uses Great Cleave and Cleave consecutively to great effect. You can Cleave while your Great Cleave cooldown timer is sleeping.... great in doorways especially...

When you're an intimitank, everything is a doorway. Mobs are always gathered around you, which is why I'm considerating it.

I've tried it on my pally and judged it wasn't efficient enough. I found that there wasn't enough occasion for it to work great, or rather, great enough to justify picking this one over others.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 07:12 AM

I've tried it on my pally and judged it wasn't efficient enough. I found that there wasn't enough occasion for it to work great, or rather, great enough to justify picking this one over others.

Efficiency in this case depends on your weapons and the way you play (gammeepl plplpl... Ahh Gameplay!) As Sigtrent has correctly pointed out - put a para in your hand and you are going to halt the baddies no doubt about it. In a rough dungeon and/or with a weak party, cleave can be a deal breaker.

Also, and possibly with a bit more devious intent, I used cleave to steal some aggro from the DPS'ers and intimitanks:) and notch a few kills for myself! :)

Its all in the Gamepl plplpll... ahhhhh ;)

Borror0

12-07-2007, 07:36 AM

I used cleave to steal some aggro from the DPS'ers and intimitanks:) and notch a few kills for myself! :)

If you steal aggro from an intimitank, you have no merit! :D

When intimidate is on the cooldown, an intimitank is nothing but a a Sword and Board fighter with crazy AC and good saves by withou Power Attack. So, either you out-DPSed a fighter that had no Power Attack (so on paper you beat him) or the mobs cannot be affected by intimidate or he has a very low intimidate skill (Read a bad intimitank or simply a fighter with intimidate. And yes, there is a nuance.) or he is "sleeping" at the keyboard, hehe.

Nothing incredible in this.

If you stole aggro from your DPSers... either they are really weak or, most probably, you grabbed the aggro from mobs that only had sight-aggroed the other melee.

Riot

12-07-2007, 08:50 AM

steal some aggro from the DPS'ers and intimitanks and notch a few kills for myself!
You obviously don't know how Intimidate works.

You can't "steal" anything from it. Unless you're Intimidating yourself.

Tanka

12-07-2007, 09:32 AM

You obviously don't know how Intimidate works.

You can't "steal" anything from it. Unless you're Intimidating yourself.
Bingo.

And, to actually add to the topic, the reason you can't "steal" from an Intimitank without Intimidate is thus:

It's a 6 second ability (that is, it remains active for six seconds, keeping all intimidated creatures aggro'd on you) with a 10 second cooldown (so, for four seconds, they go back to their regular hate pattern).

No stealing involved. It's just how Intimidate works.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 09:37 AM

(so, for four seconds, they go back to their regular hate pattern).

While it's the length in theory, it's a bit lower than this. Seems they have to "realise it changed" or something like this.

Tanka

12-07-2007, 09:41 AM

While it's the length in theory, it's a bit lower than this. Seems the have to "realise it changed" or something like this.
Well, sure. However, for the most part, they go back to the old "who has done the most damage to me" routine.

Riekan

12-07-2007, 10:05 AM

Borror0

12-07-2007, 10:11 AM

Have you had the chance to think about the Cleave/Great Cleave feats again? IF they will be picked up at 15 and 16, which current feat would you be dumping to pick up power attack? I think that my choice would be GWS: Slash. Giving up 2 damage to have full DPS situationally and open up the cleave line seems like a good tradeoff.

I was looking a lot at Lightning Reflexes, but your idea makes lots of sense. I'll give it a thought, but you're right. Cleave would increase my DPS a lot, so dropping GWS might not be a bad idea at all.

Thanks for the idea man. :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 10:13 AM

You obviously don't know how Intimidate works.

You can't "steal" anything from it. Unless you're Intimidating yourself.

Steal, wheel, peal, deal... they are only words. It was just a phrase. You can sit down now.

I meant I get the kill. Intimi or DPS doesnt. Apparently you never played a pali in a party where the DPS'ers do the majority of the killing!

My Pali plays a support role. Cleave/Great Cleave grabs attention and gets the duke on certain occasions (If its needed or to kill the bordom of playing backup healer/buffer/other support tasks). He doesnt lead in kills but if you'd like me to "steal" a kill or two from you Riot it will be an absolute pleasure!

In any event, I'll give you 3 cps for jumping and barking like Fido... ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 10:15 AM

Borror0:

Have you had the chance to think about the Cleave/Great Cleave feats again? IF they will be picked up at 15 and 16, which current feat would you be dumping to pick up power attack? I think that my choice would be GWS: Slash. Giving up 2 damage to have full DPS situationally and open up the cleave line seems like a good tradeoff.

After arguing for 10+ pages on my thread and a few on this thread dont bank on that one Riekan! Borroo loves his GWS:Slash. Of course I'd agree with you though.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 10:20 AM

Borroo loves his GWS:Slash.

No, I know what trade ofs are. GWS is a great feat, adds damage. A must have on any DPS build. However, if another feat can give you more damage, I'd be totally stupid to keep GWS.;) The real debate I have now is "How important is Lightning Reflexes is?"

Tanka

12-07-2007, 10:29 AM

Les, the point of an Intimitank is not to kill the most. It's to mitigate the most damage by keeping aggro on them for ~60% of the quest. Which makes it easier for everyone else to kill.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 10:44 AM

Les, the point of an Intimitank is not to kill the most. It's to mitigate the most damage by keeping aggro on them for ~60% of the quest. Which makes it easier for everyone else to kill.

Yes Tanka, thank you. I respect that interpretation... thats loosely my definition as well. I was just trying to say that Cleave does allow you to take.. steal... whatever word youd like to use.. some aggro for yourself. An intimitank cant be everywhere at all times. My Pali puts Cleave to good use... and I definitely saw my kills count go upwards.

I play smart. My Pali's role is WELL DEFINED in most parties. I KNOW the Cleric and Intimitank cant be everywhere at all times... When party separation occurs, thats when my role becomes even more vital.... I take the aid to the battle (in the form of heals/buffs)... where-ever that might be. Sometimes that Cleave might be just enough to grab the attention of the bad guys or outright kill them when the entire party's well being is really on the line.

I also know my strengths and weaknesses. I cannot try to compete with the DPS dudes in kill count. Thats not a palis role or the role of an intimitank. But for MY Pali, the Cleave line was quite beneficial.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 10:49 AM

An intimitank cant be everywhere at all times.

He can't, but if he knows how to play his toon, he'll grab all the mobs' aggro on him almost all the time with the expection of the mobs that are much behind and are ranging.

Sometimes that Cleave might be just enough to grab the attention of the bad guys or outright kill them when the entire party's well being is really on the line.

Cleave is a normal swing with a one-handed weapon. If there is a THFer in the grp, there is no way you'll steal aggro. Your Aandre is a THF fighter, you know how hard and often the glancing blows occur and how hard they hit for. Cleave won't be enough to draw the aggro from all the mobs on you.

I also know my strengths and weaknesses. I cannot try to compete with the DPS dudes in kill count. Thats not a palis role or the role of an intimitank. But for MY Pali, the Cleave line was quite beneficial.

Yes, it does increase your DPS, not a bad feat at all.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 11:25 AM

Cleave is a normal swing with a one-handed weapon. If there is a THFer in the grp, there is no way you'll steal aggro. Your Aandre is a THF fighter, you know how hard and often the glancing blows occur and how hard they hit for. Cleave won't be enough to draw the aggro from all the mobs on you.

Yes, you are right, most of the time. Everything as you know, in DDO, is situational. Of course if I'm standing next to a THF I expect him to be gettin the majority of the kills. However, this is DDO. Even with a THF nearby hackin and slashing, I might grab (steal?:)) a kill or 2 if my Great Cleave or Cleave swing is the final swing needed to get the kill. I wouldnt call this exactly staying on task with my support role, but these are kills in the bank for my party.

More important to discuss is how you position yourself before you cleave. If the Wizzy is all by himself, I will Cleave and Wizzy will scramble and/or cast. If my cleave disrupts/kills an evil caster/cleric and saves our wizzy's butt, then I've also done my job.

Situational examples, but if you look hard for more situations during a quest, Cleave can get the attention when and where its needed. For an intimitank... hmmm its certainly one way you can go...

Borror0

12-07-2007, 11:55 AM

I might grab (steal?:)) a kill or 2 if my Great Cleave or Cleave swing is the final swing needed to get the kill.

Wow, just wow. You're arguing this is a good feat to steal kills and this is what makes it fun?!!?:eek:

Kill stealing is not something you should even look at, ever! It is not a mesure of your efficiency. This feat can bve good because of all the added DPS it can deal on a bunch of mobs all gathered around you, not because it could make my kill count go up. I couldn't careless about kill count while I'm on Borror. When I'm on Heiken, leading the kill count is what makes me happy, or at least, when I'm mostly nuking (which is almost all the time, there are a few times where it's better not too. In those times I don't look at the kill count but look at how efficient I am, how useful to the group I am.) Cleave is good becuase it makes the quests shorter and easier, not because I see more red numbers.

More important to discuss is how you position yourself before you cleave.

Konwing how to position yourself is a need as an intimitank, not a possibility.

If the Wizzy is all by himself, I will Cleave and Wizzy will scramble and/or cast. If my cleave disrupts/kills an evil caster/cleric and saves our wizzy's butt, then I've also done my job.

Your cleave will not kill or disrupt a mob any faster. If the wizard has aggro, you're probably running after the mob. Cleave does not make you hit harder, but more mobs. Your example does not work, and even less in a thread about an intimitank. Any half-decent intimitank would press his intimitdate button and grab the mobs' attention in a heartbeat.

Situational examples, but if you look hard for more situations during a quest, Cleave can get the attention when and where its needed. For an intimitank... hmmm its certainly one way you can go...

An intimitank does not need Cleave to grab attention, or he's a GIMP!

It's additional damage, faster killing overall.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 12:18 PM

Wow, just wow. You're arguing this is a good feat to steal kills and this is what makes it fun?!!?:eek:

You are being needlessly argumentative. I have finally calmed down, don't let the beast awaken on you, again! I explained what I said. My main job as a Pali is support. Doesn't mean I cant get a few kills in there in the meantime. Cleave will get you more kills, and more attention too.

Konwing how to position yourself is a need as an intimitank, not a possibility.
Thanks for repeating what I said ;)

Your cleave will not kill or disrupt a mob any faster. If the wizard has aggro, you're probably running after the mob.
If there are two monsters on a wizzy with almost no HP left, and I happen to be standing nearby, Cleave is the fastest way I can attack those two monsters. End of story. I said its situational. That is a situation.

Your example does not work, and even less in a thread about an intimitank. Any half-decent intimitank would press his intimitdate button and grab the mobs' attention in a heartbeat.

Using your own example, if 2 opposing wizzies are casting on the party from a distance, and the intimitank is not close enough, or there IS no intimitank in the party, and my Pali is standing next to them, I will be Great Cleaving the wizzies, and then smiting them to death. There are so many ways to use cleave.

An intimitank does not need Cleave to grab attention, or he's a GIMP!
I was trying to be helpful, but if you must continue to attack me, I'll be a bit more blunt. I think you are in contrast to everything your build is supposed to be about. Leave the killing to the DPS fighters and barbs. You are supposed to be ****ing things off (which you do quite well inside or outside of the game ;)), not competing for kills. In other words, any decent intimitank shouldnt waste 2 or 3 feats on Cleave/Greater Cleave.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 12:59 PM

If there are two monsters on a wizzy with almost no HP left, and I happen to be standing nearby, Cleave is the fastest way I can attack those two monsters. End of story. I said its situational. That is a situation.

A little bit too situational for me. ;)

Anyway, why the wizard just doesn't nuke the hell out of them? I mean, if you can kill them by Sword and Board DPS (~40 damage) why can't he just throw a Fireball at them. It'd kill them both if they are close enough for you to Cleave them.

Using your own example, if 2 opposing wizzies are casting on the party from a distance, and the intimitank is not close enough, or there IS no intimitank in the party, and my Pali is standing next to them, I will be Great Cleaving the wizzies, and then smiting them to death. There are so many ways to use cleave.

If there is an intimitank is in the group, he'll use run to the wizzies and use intimidate on the mobs. As an intimitank, you always "run ahead" to get sight aggro. So, as long as no one is stupid enough to go and hit the wizzies and get their attention off of you, you'll be the one receiving the spells and they'll have to face your high saves while the group magic user (cleric, wizard and sorcerer) will probably FoD them from afar.

If there is no intimitank in the grp, you'll Cleave them once... maybe twice if it's a low DPS group, but that is irrevelant to the discussion anyway, we're not talkng about your pally.

(which you do quite well inside or outside of the game ;))

LOL

Leave the killing to the DPS fighters and barbs. You are supposed to be ****ing things off, not competing for kills. In other words, any decent intimitank shouldnt waste a feat on Cleave.

You just proved that you have no understanding of the way an intimitank works, sorry to use such harsh words, but what you just said is total non-sense. Of course, the main goal is to gain aggro and mitigate damage, but if nothing dies you will never finish a quest. Of course, Riot and I could have gone total defense. I could drop all offensive feats. No WF, no GWS, no WS... but that'd be stupid from me. I'm not DPS itself like Axer or Maldini, but that does not mean I'm uncapable of it. Neither does it mean I should not swing a weapon, unless it's paralyser.

And even if it would be the case, like you mentioned yourself, a paralyser plus Cleave and Greater Cleave is a good combo.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 01:32 PM

You just proved that you have no understanding of the way an intimitank works

Dont kid yourself like that ... Now as for Riot or Maldini's intimtanks (their intimitanks I consider to be the best models currently available... and you were #3 before this silliness about Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave) I see NO CLEAVE LINE whatsoever. Your slashing line should grant you plenty of DPS punch. If Weapon Focus : Slashing Weapons, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons, Improved Critical : Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons are not enough feats to supply satisfactory DPS for you, then the Cleave line aint gonna be THAT MUCH MORE of a help to you.

Anyway.... I think my thread has gone to your head Borror0, cause you are starting to look more and more like a DPS guy, not an intimitank. You are seriously crossing over into hybrid territory now... and walking your intimitank off any "classic intimitank model list" that I would recommend anyone look at. Just my 2 pp

but if nothing dies you will never finish a quest
Ohh and as far as "nothing dying".... you have an entire party willin to get that kill for you, including a very hungry Aandre :) Dont worry, Leeroy Jenkins wont let you die ;) .......

Deragoth

12-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Lots of good info here... lots of blood and body parts laying around, too... but lots of good info.

Thanks Borror0.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 02:06 PM

Dont kid yourself like that ... Now as for Riot or Maldini's intimtanks (their intimitanks I consider to be the best models currently available... and you were #3 before this silliness about Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave) I see NO CLEAVE LINE whatsoever.

A long time ago, Riot did mention taking Power attack and Cleave as a possibility.

Your slashing line should grant you plenty of DPS punch. If Weapon Focus : Slashing Weapons, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons, Improved Critical : Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons are not enough feats to supply enough DPS for you, then the Cleave line aint gonna be THAT MUCH MORE of a help to you.

Ok, listen to this:

A floor Intimidate.
I can't remember the last tiem I failed a save on anything but a 1.
I cannot get my AC any higher.
If I wipe (in a PuG), I always die after the cleric. I cannot, however, say I'm the last to die... as aggro is on my 100% of the time. So, HP is fine. The cleric can keep me healed unless he is sleeping at the keyboard.

So, what do you want me to do?

Grab more toughness? HP is fine.

Mobility? Don't feel like tumbling around.

Spring Attack? A possibility, but no... wait! That would increase my DPS too!!:rolleyes:

Quickdraw? Why? To change of weapon faster? No, it'd increase my DPS... can't do that.:rolleyes:

Improved Shield Mastery? I'm quite fond of the Blocking DR I have now, no thanks.

Improved Shield Bashing? Tried it, the DPS it does is too ridduclous to be worth it. Useless sometimes, but too situational.

Power Critical? That would be more DPS.:rolleyes:

Iron Will (it'll have been switched out for Force of Personnality)? I never fail myself right now, they'll even be higher with FoP, so why would I want more?

DPS is the thingg I want to increase now, my AC cannot go any hgiher from feats. My HP are fine and they'll improve as I'll spend more APs into them. When you can intimitank well, you have to focus on other things. Why do you think we have the whole slashing line? More DPS. And by the way, weren't you the one to say "Borroo loves his GWS:Slash. Of course I'd agree with you though."? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Anyway.... I think my thread has gone to your head Borror0, cause you are starting to look more and more like a DPS guy, not an intimitank. You are seriously crossing over into hybrid territory now... and walking your intimitank off any "classic intimitank model list" that I would recommend anyone look at. Just my 2 pp

No there is something you seem to have forgotten, beause you once had that speech. This game is mostly about DPS. You end a quests by killing mobs in your way. Of course, I mainly contribute by avoiding damage to the group, but if I only do that, I'm not playing my build to the fullest of its capacities. That would be playing a cleric with full wisdom and never casting anything but heals on the party. That cleric should cast a few Greater Command, the group would need less heals. He could cast Harm on red named, the fight would be shorter, which would result in less heals and in more loot per time spent. Same thing here. I could reach a little more AC by building myself differently, getting even higher saves, more HP, higher blocking DR... but would that make my build better?

Not really.

You have to put priorities. Unless they add new interesting feats, I'll probably go with Cleave and Great Cleave.

Ohh and as far as "nothing dying".... you have an entire party willin to get that kill for you, including a very hungry Aandre :)

Aandre eats? That's why he took blunt focus? So his molar tooth could be more efficient too?;)

Seriously, you were the one blaming me for counting on the party a few pages ago, where has that gone to?;)

Lots of good info here... lots of blood and body parts laying around, too... but lots of good info.

Don't worry about the blood, Leslie and I got a good deal with a really good cleric. We're... good customers of him. ;)

But yeah, I'm glad it's still open and glad it is of help to you. :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 02:18 PM

Don't worry about the blood, Leslie and I got a good deal with a really good cleric. We're... good customers of him. ;)

I sure do... hey I even sleep with one..... Calling all cars.... Dr Howard... Dr Fine... Dr Howard........................!!!!!

As for Borror0, Im growing to like these pitty pats (darn puns:)) sure more entertaining than Hannity and Combs :)

Mhykke

12-07-2007, 02:36 PM

I cannot try to compete with the DPS dudes in kill count. Thats not a palis role

Depends on the paladin.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 02:39 PM

Depends on the paladin.

Indeed. My friend has a THF Human pally and she loves it. Amazingly high red numbers and good support capacities.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 03:13 PM

Depends on the paladin.

Oh I have shocked quite a few fighters and barbs with what my Pali can do on offense, especially against undead... but my Paladin stands proud in a supporting role first and foremost...

Epitome

12-07-2007, 03:15 PM

I am sorry Borro Zrro, but the high end dps whether it is barbarian or other high end dps build does get through the quest quicker. I don't know what type of tanks/players/casters you run with, but high dps trumps in terms of speed a lower dps anyday. Axer is right if you have quick killing tanks and especially with a lovely bard the party does not take as much damage because the monsters are dead.. The defensive tank is not a bass guitar, but a crutch in a truely dps party because why not have 6 party members which slice the enemies to bits before they can respond in kind. Its blitzkrieg baby - that is the strategy. In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality. Only hope is mod6 bro or you can just keep living in the world you live in.

I find this untrue personally. I've played intimitanks since mod 1 - 2. The only thing that has sucked bad is Mod 5 because of the shadows, wraiths, wheeps which any melee will have a hard time one on one with in elite.

As for kill counts on my intimitank? I usually win them or am a close number 2. Its not difficult and thats with CE going the whole time. I can see how a person who doesn't know what they are doing would be a crutch playing a intimitank; specifically if they aren't geared for it. I know with a bloodstone, decent str, madstone boots, and some good khopeshes I can hit for over a hundred easy. I also give the barbs I've played with an opportunity to stay on their feat and at least try to give me a challenge on killing things.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 03:17 PM

especially against undead

Paladin do no more damage to undead than any other class, expect that the cap between barbarian is shorter because they loose the effectiveness of Crit rage II.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 04:01 PM

I find this untrue personally. I've played intimitanks since mod 1 - 2. The only thing that has sucked bad is Mod 5 because of the shadows, wraiths, wheeps which any melee will have a hard time one on one with in elite.

You arent built purely defensive if you are flipping lead kill counts with a barb. Then again, my DPS fighter beats barbs routinely. Im gonna tell you a secret, shhhh, dont tell anyone...

Many players that build barbarians in DDO don't know how to build/play the class properly. Say that in a barb forum they'll go nuts (hey they went nuts in my thread too, which is in the fighter forum!) but its true. You arent saying much if you can beat a barbarian, many fighters of all stripes can.

However, wisely built/played DPS barbs (or fighters for that matter) you are NOT beating routinely...

Now if its incorporals you need help with, Aandre may let you borrow his +5 Ghost Touch Great Axe of Righteousness or his Phase Hammer if tempted (aka bribed:))

Borror0

12-07-2007, 04:09 PM

Many players that build barbarians in DDO don't know how to build/play the class properly. Say that in a barb forum they'll go nuts (hey they went nuts in my thread too, which is in the fighter forum!) but its true.

You know, it's the case for every class in the whoel freaking game. And honestly, barbarians are the hardest to mess up. Very little choices to make and every oen and their mom can max Str and Con and then go to town. This is what I said to you many times and wouldn't listen. Glad you finally understood, or sort of. Many peole don't know how to build a character or don't know how to gear themselves up or tdon't play that brightly... comparing to PuGies isn't a good idea.

I also doubt that any Intimitank would lead the kill count that often agaisnt THF, but I could see in PuGs. But if it's all Sword and Board... that's possible to lead if better geared.

Now if its incorporals you need help with, Aandre may let you borrow his +5 Ghost Touch Great Axe of Righteousness or his Phase Hammer if tempted (aka bribed:))

Huh? I don't get what you mean. Are you bragging about your gear or trying to make a point? Because you're being deadly unclear.

Epitome

12-07-2007, 04:12 PM

Don't want to derail Borr's sweet character build thread...

Toon I was talking about is a mirror image of Riot (too impatient to get crafty and re-invent the wheel myself). The reason I can compete with kills is because I'm not doing to much shield blocking anymore in addition to haveing all the human improved recoveries I get hit very infrequently and can usually pot heal myself (anywhere from 30-38 points of healing) and keep trucking on.

My argument about mod 5's incorporeals is that they suck for any melee. I've seen alot of guildies not really care to take their melee toons in unless they need favor or sigil peices in the more incorporeal heavy instances. I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers (how many melee parties go thrash the Temple of Vol?) However I still find intimidate and shield block (which shouldn't work against incorporeals but it does) very useful while these mobs are cooking in the firewalls.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 04:20 PM

I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers (how many melee parties go thrash the Temple of Vol?) However I still find intimidate and shield block (which shouldn't work against incorporeals but it does) very useful while these mobs are cooking in the firewalls.

Agreed. 100%

If one day melee damage becomes totally enefficient, well intimitnaks will still have their job.

And yes, DToV and yes, firewall is the incorp killer. They usually barely have time to get to me, they sometimes get an hit, two at most... and it's usually a miss. ;)

A melee simpluy doesn't have time to compete in DPS in those cases.

sigtrent

12-07-2007, 04:26 PM

Topics

Uber DPS Wins: More or less. Offense is primary in DDO and D&D although defense has its place. Sadly the monsters arn't clever enough to truly exploit our weaknesses. anyhow... super uber DPS monsters are more the exception than the rule (as are super defensive intimitanks) Most people (no matter if all your leet palls are super cool) have pretty medeocre characters and items and parties can benefit from any specilized character that joins.

Intimitanks doing damage: Doing damage is good. Arguing agasint that is silly. Mr tank my find himslef the only good DPS character in a party. You could blame the party for that but none the less its nice if you can do it.

Cleave: I suggested it not only as a way to do damage... not only as an additional way to grab some agro.. but primarily as a defensive measure. Paralyzed mobs can't hit you. Cursed mobs have a harder time hitting you. Destructed mobs are easier for your palls to kill, dead mobs can't hurt you, weaker mobs do less damage and hit less often.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 04:37 PM

I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers

I have no trouble killing incorps, but will admit I've seen MANY melees fear them (maybe even more than I've seen them fear beholders back in the day). I think we all know that firewalls/blade barriers make life much easier in mod 5 necropolis.

But then I like traveling in well balanced parties...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 04:45 PM

Cleave: I suggested it not only as a way to do damage... not only as an additional way to grab some agro.. but primarily as a defensive measure. Paralyzed mobs can't hit you. Cursed mobs have a harder time hitting you. Destructed mobs are easier for your palls to kill, dead mobs can't hurt you, weaker mobs do less damage and hit less often.

Agreed 100%. But borror0 wants it soley to increase his DPS. Im pretty sure he will find after testing that defensively using cleave with a paralyzer, is extremely effective, as I've already told him. Defense should be the primary use, unless he finds himself the ONLY melee in the party... then all bets are off and he can cleave his way to victory.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 04:48 PM

Agreed 100%. But borror0 wants it soley to increase his DPS.

Oh God. I won't comment on that one more than to say this:

Sometimes, the best offense is a sweet mix of offense and defense.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 04:57 PM

barbarians are the hardest to mess up. Very little choices to make and every oen and their mom can max Str and Con and then go to town. This is what I said to you many times and wouldn't listen.

You didnt get it in my thread and you dont understand it now.

If barbarians were that easy to build and play as maxing con and strength, then barbarians would lead in kill counts IN EVERY PARTY DOING EVERY QUEST ON EVERY OCCASION. That simply does not happen. Many fighters and rogues and rangers will tell you they've outkilled barbarians. You know I have. Many melees do. Many barbs dont rage properly... dont use speed to their advantage... or use their advantages to their peril, such as outrunning the clerics ability to heal him! And we all know how useful a dead barb is :)

And "very little choices" are the reason I prefer playing fighters over barbarians. Judging by the ratio of fighters to barbarians in the game, many agree :) Oh, and if Critical Rage wasnt granted on a silver platter to barbs, theyd be far less then there are now .....

sigtrent

12-07-2007, 05:55 PM

You didnt get it in my thread and you dont understand it now.

It is rarely productive to tell people what they themselves said. Mostly because they already know what they said, and often folks mis-understand what others are trying to say.

If barbarians were that easy to build and play as maxing con and strength, then barbarians would lead in kill counts IN EVERY PARTY DOING EVERY QUEST ON EVERY OCCASION.

I don't really see why that is true. Gear and expereince are probably the biggest factors in the general population of character performance. The best barbarian builds are generaly pretty easy to make. You really can't go too wrong cranking up str and con. Picking good feats definately helps though. The thing is, cranking str and con is pretty intuitive. Many fighter builds are a bit more complicated requiring dex or int for meeting feat targets and the like.

Oh, and if Critical Rage wasnt granted on a silver platter to barbs, theyd be far less then there are now .

All said and done it's a 10% crit bonus. Not exactly earth shattering, but its a nice benefit when comparing classes that are otherwise pretty close in power. It fit's the class pretty well.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 06:09 PM

All said and done it's a 10% crit bonus. Not exactly earth shattering, but its a nice benefit when comparing classes that are otherwise pretty close in power. It fit's the class pretty well.

Critical Rage I and II is pretty sweet, and most agree it was created and put in so more folks would play barb class. I know several barbs that say Critical Rage is the ONLY reason they rolled their barbs.

BTW critical rage II increases the threat range of a weapon by +2, thats pretty hard for a fighter to overcome.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 06:10 PM

I don't really see why that is true. Gear and expereince are probably the biggest factors in the general population of character performance. The best barbarian builds are generaly pretty easy to make. You really can't go too wrong cranking up str and con. Picking good feats definately helps though. The thing is, cranking str and con is pretty intuitive. Many fighter builds are a bit more complicated requiring dex or int for meeting feat targets and the like.

What Sigtrent said.:)

Borror0

12-07-2007, 06:15 PM

Critical Rage I and II is pretty sweet, and most agree it was created and put in so more folks would play barb class. I know several barbs that say Critical Rage is the ONLY reason they rolled their barbs.

That is a very false and unclear statement, but I see your point.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 06:25 PM

That is a very false and unclear statement, but I see your point.

Nothing unclear about it. Critical Rage I and II give the barbarian a huge advantage over the fighter in DPS. Show me one DPS based fighter that wouldnt enjoy having their crit range increase by 2! ;) It was a broad-based method the devs could apply to ensure most barbs would outkill most fighters. Most Barbs I know swear by it. Show me a DPS barb build without it. Indisputable.

Borror0

12-07-2007, 06:41 PM

Most Barbs I know swear by it. Show me a DPS barb build without it. Indisputable.

Of course, you'd be a moron to not take it, but barbs would have higher DPS over any other build anyway!

+10 Str from rage versus +3 from Fighter Str II

+6 damage from Barb's PA vs +4 from GWS

The bonus of GWF is easily catched up in the Str bonus while raged.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-07-2007, 06:47 PM

Of course, you'd be a moron to not take it, but barbs would have higher DPS over any other build anyway!
This hurts, but I agree.

However, there was a time when no-one wanted to roll a barb. Critical Rage sealed the deal for many.

And there are many fighters that are hoping there IS NO crit rage III.. EVER. :)

Borror0

12-07-2007, 06:57 PM

And there are many fighters that are hoping there IS NO crit rage III.. EVER. :)

I wonder who you're talking about here...:rolleyes:

I'd like to add that what made barbarian so popular is mainly the loss of effectiveness of low AC, which basicly made the fiughter's versatility dissapear in high level content. Without that, barbarians would be as popular as they are now. Pretty popular? Yes, but not as much.

Averroes

12-07-2007, 07:08 PM

This hurts, but I agree.

However, there was a time when no-one wanted to roll a barb. Critical Rage sealed the deal for many.

And there are many fighters that are hoping there IS NO crit rage III.. EVER. :)

That time, lest we forget, was circa mod 1 -- long before the enhancement system changes. That was when drow blackguards had 46 AC, and only pallies and fighters had any hope of hitting them with reasonable frequency -- because of their +10 attack boost.

Barbs had +10 damage boost instead, but no way of getting their attack bonuses high enough to hit the point where they were competitive.

In fact, at the time, I believe pallies were putting out the best offensive numbers -- at the level 10 cap, fighters didn't have greater weapon spec, and divine favor was +4/+4...

Now, fast forward a couple of mods, and there aren't more than 2 or 3 enemies in the game with ACs higher than 40. Attack boost got nerfed, but it was useless anyway after ACs were lowered across the board. Even non-full-BAB classes can take power attack these days and hit almost everything on a 2.

In any case, my point is that as cool as critical rage is, it isn't the primary thing separating fighters from barbs -- fighters are given ways to increase their attack bonus, which is almost never useful, while barbs are given ways to trade attack bonus for damage, which (when you're hitting everything on a 2) is always useful. Blame the monster AC rebalance...

xanvar

12-07-2007, 07:23 PM

So how about that Dwarven Defender build?

Mhykke

12-07-2007, 08:48 PM

So how about that Dwarven Defender build?

You haven't noticed him "defending" himself for the last four pages or so? :D

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-08-2007, 12:05 AM

as cool as critical rage is, it isn't the primary thing separating fighters from barbs -- Blame the monster AC rebalance...

Well, to ME, crit range, strength under rage, and speed are the 3 biggest DPS advantages a Barbarian has over a Fighter. Fighters have nothing specific to match that crit range. So Id say crit range is uniquely and vitally important. Its the quintessential feat, what DPS Barb wouldnt take it?

Mhykke

12-08-2007, 12:21 AM

Well, to ME, crit range, strength under rage, and speed are the 3 biggest DPS advantages a Barbarian has over a Fighter. Fighters have nothing specific to match that crit range. So Id say crit range is uniquely and vitally important. Its the quintessential feat, what DPS Barb wouldnt take it?

Enhancement you mean.....

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-08-2007, 01:42 AM

Enhancement you mean.....

of course :) dang late night postings!!! :)

Borror0

12-08-2007, 02:58 AM

So how about that Dwarven Defender build?

Sorry, we can't. When I make post about the build, like #183, Leslie avoids them. :D

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-08-2007, 06:38 AM

Sorry, we can't. When I make post about the build, like #183, Leslie avoids them. :D

Funny man, Aandre avoid nuttin. My comments in quotes:

#183:
So, what do you want me to do?

Grab more toughness? HP is fine. (Cant have enough HP)

Mobility? Don't feel like tumbling around. (Fighter Mobility III is +6 to AC, Mobility can be nice, if u tumble a lot... most have it and never tumble)

Spring Attack? A possibility, but no... wait! That would increase my DPS too!! (No penalty hit on the run. costly. there are better ways to grab aggro)

Quickdraw? Why? To change of weapon faster? No, it'd increase my DPS... can't do that. (If you like using several weapons in a fight, its sweet)

Improved Shield Mastery? I'm quite fond of the Blocking DR I have now, no thanks. (I agree)

Improved Shield Bashing? Tried it, the DPS it does is too ridduclous to be worth it. Useless sometimes, but too situational. (I like shield bashing for a tank, if you are looking for DPS you arent going to take this)

Power Critical? That would be more DPS. (+ 4 confirm crits? I just dont see the need in this build.)

Iron Will (it'll have been switched out for Force of Personnality)? I never fail myself right now, they'll even be higher with FoP, so why would I want more? (A waste)
---------------------------------------------------

I think Quickdraw is a great option. To me the biggest "draw" to Quickdraw is you keep playing exactly the way you've been playing. Just makes you more accurate. And raise your DPS. Personally, I like these transparent abilities. It automatically alters the game mechanics in your favor, every time.

In the end, you may just have more fun with Cleave line. No doubt though... u need to try.

Borror0

12-08-2007, 07:11 AM

Funny man, Aandre avoid nuttin.

I just meant you didn't comment.

Cant have enough HP.

You can't have too mcuh HP, but, as I'm not "lacking HP", there are probably better feats to grab.

Fighter Mobility III is +6 to AC, Mobility can be nice, if u tumble a lot... most have it and never tumble.

I don't tumble that much. I do... sometimes.

No penalty hit on the run. costly. there are better ways to grab aggro.

Yeah, as an intimitank, you barely walk.

If you like using several weapons in a fight, its sweet.

Yeah, not that bad. Like you said, it's a "transparent" feat which is its biggest plus... but not quite sure if it's worth the feat for me.

I mean, how much would switching weapon faster would give to me. Not real sure about this. I change often, but it's manageable.

I like shield bashing for a tank, if you are looking for DPS you arent going to take this.

Well, Riot's main arguement for this feat is "Little DPS is better than ZERO DPS". Mine is "If I can get something that will help me more often, I'll get it." I don't know how often other intimitanks blocks, but for me, it's not that often. Most of the time, my normal AC serves me enoguh for me to swing my weapon. There are a few times where shield blocking and holding aggro is best, and that's why I got Dwarven Shield Mastery and the Shield Mastery feat. However, I don't spend enough time in SB mode for me to feel that I:SB is needed.

+ 4 confirm crits? I just dont see the need in this build.

Me either.

I think Quickdraw is a great option. To me the biggest "draw" to Quickdraw is you keep playing exactly the way you've been playing. Just makes you more accurate. And raise your DPS. Personally, I like these transparent abilities. It automatically alters the game mechanics in your favor, every time.

Agreed. The real question is, would Cleave serve me better.

In the end, you may just have more fun with Cleave line. No doubt though... u need to try.

Yeah, I think that's the best solution. Give it a try. If it end up being a bad idea, I'll switch to something else.

Still thinking if GWS:S takes the hit or if it's Lighning Reflexes...

Borror0

12-15-2007, 04:50 AM

Got on Risia, got to level and played a little around with Cleave. So far, I like it. However, I ahd the bad surprise to see how bad my gear was when they made the server merge, hehe.

So yeah, really seems like it'll be Cleave and Greater Cleave...

Sual

12-16-2007, 04:27 PM

Tanka

12-16-2007, 04:36 PM

"An Int tome is pretty much required to roll a Dwarven Defender. A +1 Tome is required before level 4 in order to get Combat Expertise. An unbound +2 is also very nice because oif the additional skill points. If I has any more skill points. I'd either get UMD or Spot, the one you prefer depending on your preference. You can't tank what you cannot see, but UMD is nice."

So i HAVE to get a +1int tome before I level to 4???
Well, not necessarily. But you won't be able to pick up Combat Expertise until you get that +1 Int tome.

CE needs a base 13 Int. That's without +Int items, Enhancements or spells. So base 12 + +1 Int tome = base 13.

Strykersz

12-16-2007, 04:39 PM

Sual

12-16-2007, 05:14 PM

Well it will be a 28point build, and can some1 explain what CE is? a feat?

Also I have never been 14, but with all saves at 20+ will I have a decent chance at pvp at all?

Borror0

12-16-2007, 05:23 PM

So i HAVE to get a +1int tome before I level to 4???

Or you have to move point around. You need 13 Int to get Combat Expterise, which is one of the most important feat of the build, without it.. the build falls appart. If I look at your join date, you seem to be pretty new. For you, a +1 Int is then out of reach. This build wasn't really built for newcomers. I've pointed that out a few times in the thread, but I'm not assuming someone to read the whole, hehe. Borror was built for me, for what I knew I could get.

Borror is made as a 32 pointer. You probably got access only to 28 pt.. and probably drow. There are ways to make the build work for whatever you got.. put keep in mind that this will require a lot of gear. anythnig that rely on AC gets really expensive at high level. Not dramasticly, but more than the average and you'll have to be willing to put the effort to get it.

That said, if you like the idea of build, if it's something you beleive will be fun for you to play, if you're ready to put the effort to get this guy a decent AC... then I'm willing to help you adapt it to your means, to what you'll be able to get. I posted this guy like this, but he's playable otherwise... just got to adapt it to what you got. :)

Hope this is any clear or of any help,
Borror0

Sual

12-16-2007, 05:34 PM

Or you have to move point around. You need 13 Int to get Combat Expterise, which is one of the most important feat of the build, without it.. the build falls appart. If I look at your join date, you seem to be pretty new. For you, a +1 Int is then out of reach. This build wasn't really built for newcomers. I've pointed that out a few times in the thread, but I'm not assuming someone to read the whole, hehe. Borror was built for me, for what I knew I could get.

Borror is made as a 32 pointer. You probably got access only to 28 pt.. and probably drow. There are ways to make the build work for whatever you got.. put keep in mind that this will require a lot of gear. anythnig that rely on AC gets really expensive at high level. Not dramasticly, but more than the average and you'll have to be willing to put the effort to get it.

That said, if you like the idea of build, if it's something you beleive will be fun for you to play, if you're ready to put the effort to get this guy a decent AC... then I'm willing to help you adapt it to your means, to what you'll be able to get. I posted this guy like this, but he's playable otherwise... just got to adapt it to what you got. :)

Hope this is any clear or of any help,
Borror0
Thank you, and yes i really do wanna make this build. Not sure were I could swap a point since iam already only 28point build.

If I am not yet able to do the build, I might just go with a newb hp and ac type build :|, but I really like the idea of the saves.

Borror0

12-16-2007, 05:44 PM

Well it will be a 28point build, and can some1 explain what CE is? a feat?

CE stands for Combat Expertise. It's a feat. When you activate it, you "gain" +5 to your Armor Clas and loose 5 on your attack rolls.

But don't worry about "only" having 28 pt, I'd drop the Cha to 12 and would go for Dex 14 and Int 14 if you can't afford the tome.

Sual

12-16-2007, 05:53 PM

CE stands for Combat Expertise. It's a feat. When you activate it, you "gain" +5 to your Armor Clas and loose 5 on your attack rolls.

But don't worry about "only" having 28 pt, I'd drop the Cha to 12 and would go for Dex 14 and Int 14 if you can't afford the tome.
Why make int so high?
Wouldn't it be better to do like 14dex 11con 12int? (Your the "master" lol just wondering)

Borror0

12-16-2007, 06:03 PM

Why make int so high?
Wouldn't it be better to do like 14dex 11con 12int? (Your the "master" lol just wondering)

Like I said, (Sorry, should have put more emphasis on this.) CE needs a minimum of 13 to be taken. That number can be lowered by the use of tomes, but not normal items.

Like I said in the OP, since you'll get more skill points... take UMD, you won't regret it. I've been given a +4 Holy Cold Iron Dwarven Axe of Pure Good RR: Human by a guildy for my future bard. Let's just say Borror wishes he had UMD. ;)

PS: Don't call me master, it feels really weird at my age!!!:eek:

Sual

12-16-2007, 06:10 PM

Like I said, (Sorry, should have put more emphasis on this.) CE needs a minimum of 13 to be taken. That number can be lowered by the use of tomes, but not normal items.

Like I said in the OP, since you'll get more skill points... take UMD, you won't regret it. I've been given a +4 Holy Cold Iron Dwarven Axe of Pure Good RR: Human by a guildy for my future bard. Let's just say Borror wishes he had UMD. ;)

PS: Don't call me master, it feels really weird at my age!!!:eek:
Ok so 14dex 14int.
and also I should put skill points Intimi until i get 17 and than UMD and than balance (any certain amount i should stop at for any of them or should i just keep dumping into them every level)

the 2 levels of pally put 2 points in Tumble, than the rest in balance, but according to my char gen says that once i put 2 in tumble i can only put one point into balance leaving one point left.. so were should I stick that UMD?

Borror0

12-16-2007, 06:22 PM

Paladins have 2 skill points + Int modifier at each level, in your case, that'll be 4 per paladin level, for a total of 8 skill points.

As UMD, Balance and Tumble are cross-class skills to paladins, 1 skill point gives you 0,5 rank. The idea here is that since those three skills are also cross-class skills to fighters, it's where it's the most efficient to spend the points there. Also, all you need to tumble is 1 rank in it, so that means 2 skill points. I'd say that you should spend the rest in UMD and Balance after you'll have spent two skill points in Tumble.

At level 4, when you'll start taking fighter levels again, start maxing Intimidate again (The maximum skill points you can have in a class skill is your character level + 3). Once that is taken care of, keep also UMD maxed (The maximum skill points you can have in a cross-class skill is: (character level + 3)/2. ) and spent any additional points into Jump and Balance.

Sual

12-16-2007, 06:26 PM

Borror0

12-16-2007, 06:28 PM

Ok thank you!
Going to build now!!

No problem, if you have any other question, just let me know. :)

Curious of how it turns out for ya, don't by shy to let me hear about it as you level.

Slayer918

12-16-2007, 06:29 PM

Ok so 14dex 14int.
and also I should put skill points Intimi until i get 17 and than UMD and than balance (any certain amount i should stop at for any of them or should i just keep dumping into them every level)

the 2 levels of pally put 2 points in Tumble, than the rest in balance, but according to my char gen says that once i put 2 in tumble i can only put one point into balance leaving one point left.. so were should I stick that UMD?

If your going with 14 int you'll get 4 skill points/level (16 at lvl 1)

your breakdown (taking paly at 2 and 3) you'll want to do something like this

at 1st level put 4 points into intimidate, 4 points into UMD (since its a cross class skill you'll only get 2 ranks), 4 points into balance (again only 2 ranks going up by .5 each time), and then you can drop your last points into tumble for 2 ranks here as well

2nd level is a paladin level... meaning none of the skills you want are class skills here I would put 2 points into intimidate (1 rank since its a paly level), then 1 point (.5 of a rank) into both balance and UMD

3rd level is paladin level... same skill point distribution as level 2

from level 4 on then put one point (1 rank) into intimidate, 1 point (.5 ranks) into UMD/Balance, and then you have 1 point left over taht I would put into jump personally (tumble is an iffy skill past a few ranks as its returns are very little once you turn a positive #)

this will leave you at 17 ranks in intimidate, 8.5 ranks in UMD and balance, 2 ranks in balance and 11 ranks in jump... this is a pretty good distribution for a fighter

in the end just make sure you have intimidate and UMD maxed... if your behind in balance by a point or 2 you really shouldn't notice a huge difference in effectiveness however intimidate and UMD are the primary 2 you'll want to make sure are maxed

Borror0 beat me to it...

Sual

12-16-2007, 06:45 PM

thank you both :)

Also I have him made :), just wondering for leveling is it smart to have a Tower shield or should I go normal shield / (See if i can get mith)

Borror0

12-16-2007, 06:49 PM

Sorry Slayer, but you're making a silly mistake.

at 1st level put 4 points into intimidate, 4 points into UMD (since its a cross class skill you'll only get 2 ranks), 4 points into balance (again only 2 ranks going up by .5 each time), and then you can drop your last points into tumble for 2 ranks here as well

At first level, four points into:

Intimidate - 4 points - Rank 4
Balance - 4 poinst - Rank 2
UMD - 4 points - Rank 2
Jump - 4 points - Rank 4
Tumble - 0 point - Rank 0

2nd level is a paladin level... meaning none of the skills you want are class skills here I would put 2 points into intimidate (1 rank since its a paly level), then 1 point (.5 of a rank) into both balance and UMD

At your second level, you should spend your intoi skills that are cross to both fighter and paladin. Like this, you'll get more from the same number of points spent. For this reason, Intimidate and Jump are left out of as long as you're taking paladin levels. Your Intimidate will loose a little of effectiveness at level 2 and 3, but it's barely noticable and it pays out in the end. Anyway, you'll have such a killer AC. :)

At your second level, your first paladin level, the points should be spent like this:

Intimidate - 0 points - Rank 4
Balance - 1 poinst - Rank 2,5
UMD - 1 points - Rank 2,5
Jump - 0 points - Rank 4
Tumble - 2 point - Rank 1

3rd level is paladin level... same skill point distribution as level 2

At your third level, your second paladin level, the points should be spent like this:

Intimidate - 2 points - Rank 5
Balance - 1 poinst - Rank 3
UMD - 1 points - Rank 3
Jump - 0 points - Rank 4
Tumble - 0 point - Rank 1

from level 4 on then put one point (1 rank) into intimidate, 1 point (.5 ranks) into UMD/Balance, and then you have 1 point left over taht I would put into jump personally (tumble is an iffy skill past a few ranks as its returns are very little once you turn a positive #)

At your fourth level, your second fighter level, the points should be spent like this:

Intimidate - 2 points - Rank 7
Balance - 1 poinst - Rank 3,5
UMD - 1 points - Rank 3,5
Jump - 0 points - Rank 4
Tumble - 0 point - Rank 1

And then, at you next level.. and every following level:

Intimidate - 1 points - Rank 8
Balance - 1 poinst - Rank 4
UMD - 1 points - Rank 4
Jump - 1 points - Rank 5
Tumble - 0 point - Rank 1

this will leave you at 17 ranks in intimidate, 8.5 ranks in UMD and balance, 2 ranks in balance and 11 ranks in jump... this is a pretty good distribution for a fighter

Actually, this will leave you with:

Intimidate - Rank 17
Balance - Rank 8,5
UMD - Rank 8,5
Jump - Rank 14
Tumble - Rank 1

Borror0 beat me to it...

Yes, I did!:D

Borror0

12-16-2007, 06:53 PM

Just wondering for leveling is it smart to have a Tower shield or should I go normal shield / (See if i can get mith)

Tower Shield is nice, mostly before you get CE, after.. it depends. At low levels, depending on what quest you're doing, it'll either be better to have a Heavy Shield, a Tower Shield, CE and a Heavy Shield or CE and Tower Shield. After a certain level, CE and Tower Shield will always be the way to go, but when you level up, sometimes you'll find yourself missing too much... or getting hit to much, so you'll have to adjust a little.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-16-2007, 07:34 PM

With a 28 point build... and as a new player with little in the ways of equipment, Sual... you are going to miss a LOT, and get hit OFTEN.

I wish you the best Saul, but if you havent even found your first tome yet, this build will just take way too long to build in my opinion. There are many other builds that are far easier to outfit. This build is nowhere NEAR a beginner build. Most players that have been playing for 2 years cant even say they have all this gear. Just a friendly warning...

Sual

12-16-2007, 07:59 PM

Well thank you all again :)
and so far I have 27AC at lvl 2 so not doing too bad.
but I followed slayers point thing for first lvl :|, but think I will be ok.

Borror0

12-16-2007, 08:49 PM

With a 28 point build... and as a new player with little in the ways of equipment, Sual... you are going to miss a LOT, and get hit OFTEN.

Blanket statements.

First of, the 12 first levels didn't change, ya know? AC is still king, AC is still better than straigth DPS. He's got a while before to reach cap and enjoy this character. It's not his first character, I've taken the time to check his previous posts before replying. He's got a cleric and possibly another alt, but that is prett vague. Anyway, the point is that the other toon will be able to supply the IntimiTank. It has been proven that this toon can reach decent AC anyway. I've warned that it'll take time to reach full potential, as he'll gather a bit of gear, but he said he was ready for it.

Tell me what is Soooooo HARD to gather. Ok, ok. I'll give you the +5 Mith FP and the +5 Mith TS, but he can take a +4 Mith TS (I've walked around with one on Borror, and I had no problem. It also costed me less than 10kpp!) and a regular +5 FP. He'll just have to either take more FAM/DAM ranks, or he could get a +4 Mith FP. I have no clue how much those go for, but anyway, they are not needed.

Now, what else? +5 Protection Necklace? Findable on the AH, not that expensive. Might take him a little while to afford it, but doable for anyone. Chaosgarde?! He can just farm Xorian Cypher for them.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's doable for anyone who is willnig to put the effort and like his toon.

and I don't see what you mean by missing "A LOT"... I'd argue it, but I can't see it being that bad.

I wish you the best Saul, but if you havent even found your first tome yet, this build will just take way too long to build in my opinion. There are many other builds that are far easier to outfit. This build is nowhere NEAR a beginner build. Most players that have been playing for 2 years cant even say they have all this gear. Just a friendly warning...

All? No. Enough to be effective? I'm sure they do.

It's been proven on the thread to you many times Leslie. If you don't remember, just go and read it again.

Borror0

12-16-2007, 08:51 PM

Well thank you all again :)
and so far I have 27AC at lvl 2 so not doing too bad.
but I followed slayers point thing for first lvl :|, but think I will be ok.

Not that bad, you're a little behind in Jump, but that's not what makes or break the build, by far, hehe.
You'll be 3 points on Jump, barely noticable.

You could reroll, you're only level 2. But rerolling for such a thing is pretty much a waste of time.

Sual

12-16-2007, 09:46 PM

Not that bad, you're a little behind in Jump, but that's not what makes or break the build, by far, hehe.
You'll be 3 points on Jump, barely noticable.

You could reroll, you're only level 2. But rerolling for such a thing is pretty much a waste of time.
I think I am going to reroll just so I can be the "best" I can be, I am close to 3 but that isnt hard to get.

Borror0

12-16-2007, 10:11 PM

I think I am going to reroll just so I can be the "best" I can be, I am close to 3 but that isnt hard to get.

Ok, hehe. Up to you.

Just didn't want to make it sound like you gimped yourself, because that'd be false. :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-16-2007, 11:26 PM

AC is still king, AC is still better than straigth DPS.

Now THAT is a blanket statement. Teamwork is king, not AC builds. As for "proof", you have none. My point is it will take a LOOONG time to find items to get him to a high 50's AC. My point has not and can not be proven wrong. That's just fact. Without any help (aka equipment) from guildies and friends Sual, your build will definately struggle. You will do ok in lower levels, but just wait till you get to 14 elite quests. They will slice right through you. Just trying to offer a counter opinion.

Mhykke

12-17-2007, 11:12 AM

Now THAT is a blanket statement. Teamwork is king, not AC builds. As for "proof", you have none. My point is it will take a LOOONG time to find items to get him to a high 50's AC. My point has not and can not be proven wrong. That's just fact. Without any help (aka equipment) from guildies and friends Sual, your build will definately struggle. You will do ok in lower levels, but just wait till you get to 14 elite quests. They will slice right through you. Just trying to offer a counter opinion.

Leslie, if you could do a slot by slot breakdown of the equipment and why it'd be hard to get, that'd be great. Thanks.

Sual

12-17-2007, 01:14 PM

I put 2 points into tumble and my rank is 2.5 and I cannot tumble 0.o, i even took my tower shield off and i couldnt.

Borror0

12-17-2007, 01:30 PM

I put 2 points into tumble and my rank is 2.5 and I cannot tumble 0.o, i even took my tower shield off and i couldnt.

You score must be positive. So you must have a high Dex. I can on Borror with a 20 Dex I'm at 0 Tumble, so when I'm hit by Heroism/Greater Heroism, I can Tumble.

Sual

12-17-2007, 01:42 PM

You score must be positive. So you must have a high Dex. I can on Borror with a 20 Dex I'm at 0 Tumble, so when I'm hit by Heroism/Greater Heroism, I can Tumble.
I am -11 total mod :P, Also just wondering if I should take like the +1dex to armor instead of like +1Dr to shield and the 25% chance to not take item damage becuase i dont block too much at this level and all my gear sucks, I could just reset at a higher level.

Borror0

12-17-2007, 01:48 PM

I am -11 total mod :P, Also just wondering if I should take like the +1dex to armor instead of like +1Dr to shield and the 25% chance to not take item damage becuase i dont block too much at this level and all my gear sucks, I could just reset at a higher level.

Well, if you get a +X Tumble item and that could get you a positive Tumble, why not.

There are much better things to grab first. Tumble is more of a bonus than anything else. Mostly serve to repositionate yourself.. while blocking. also helps in the Reaver raid to avoid damage from fall. Worry about Saves, AC and HP first. DR and Tumble comes much later.

Borror0

12-17-2007, 02:05 PM

Now THAT is a blanket statement. Teamwork is king, not AC builds.

Skills are key, not teamwork. If you don't beleive me.. you weren't in the same PuG as me this morning..:mad:

AC is knig in the first 12 level. This is not a blanket statement. Even back in module 3, THF fighter were struggling for more AC. TWFers and THFers were carrying their Shield clickie preciously. There were fights in PuGs about putting a shield on (http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/new1.htm). Barbarian were unloved, because of their too low AC. Maldini was fighting everytime, a bit like I'm forced to do here. He had to argue with AC-men that DPS was good. Now, it's different. Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC. So now, it,s pretty much "focus on it or don't bother at all", but that doesn't mean that focusing on AC is worthless.

You even acknowledged this yourself:

I just dont see an intimitank as being nearly as significant now as it was in Mod 1-2 days, and its becoming less important and much much harder to build.

See! AC was key, they didn't touch the quests, AC still is.

Strykersz

12-17-2007, 03:46 PM

Some tips for leveling up on the cheap.

You can get by without using Mithral Full Plate by taking more ranks of dwarven/fighter armor mastery, in lieu of some of the other enhancements. Axe damage and Shield Mastery can wait until you're able to use your entire dex bonus to AC. Without any +dex gear, you'd need one level of armor mastery to max it. Once you get a +2 dex item(Min level 2, check the AH for a cheap one), you'll need another rank. You can hold off on a third rank until you get a +4 dex item(they're min level 9, so you can hold off a while on the third rank). Remember that a tower shield caps dex also. You will most likely be unable to afford a +5 Mithral Tower shield, so plan around getting Tower Shield Mastery 2(it gives you a +4 max dex bonus with a normal tower shield, you will really only need level 2 until you get a +6 dex item or a +2 tome). The Tower shield will most likely be unnecessary for leveling up until you hit Giant Hold.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod

12-17-2007, 05:46 PM

Skills are key, not teamwork.
Wow the "great" Borror0 actually promoting a notion that teamwork is not key. See, a lot of "great" players forget the basics, and teamwork is usually the first "skill" to be ignored. See the parties I lead, I PROMOTE teamwork. To me, perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game. Finding items are nothing short of a gamble. The skills you talk about are part of a building process. Most players build their characters without ever looking at a blueprint. Imagine if we tried to build our homes in real life without looking at a blueprint. Mistakes will happen. With careful planning BEFORE you begin building your build, your characters' skills (feats and enhancements) just fall right into place as you level..

Perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game to me because they take work. You are always getting better. Or you take them for granted. Playstyle and teamwork are what's key. Skills, for the well prepared among us, are expected.

AC is knig in the first 12 level. This is not a blanket statement. Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC. So now, it,s pretty much "focus on it or don't bother at all", but that doesn't mean that focusing on AC is worthless.
This is the first time I've seen you admit that AC is only "king" up the 12th level. Im going to take a wild guess here, and assume your self-supposed superiority diminishes greatly after 12. Finally you are being honest. You know full well you must rely on your party to do the majority of the killing after 12. You are also getting hit much harder in level 13-14 quests, especially on elite. AC isnt king in level 13 and 14, and I enjoy bursting your bubble, so I will... AC isnt king in levels 1-12 either. You cant hit squat in the early levels, and you dont have the AC yet so you get battered. Healing yourself is your only skill early on. You are a wlking medic, and you are your most popular patient! :)

As for the "Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC" comment... I got but one word for you.. Waaah. Kill it first before it kills you, and dont ask anyone else to do it for ya!! :)

Borror0

12-17-2007, 08:02 PM

Wow the "great" Borror0 actually promoting a notion that teamwork is not key. See, a lot of "great" players forget the basics, and teamwork is usually the first "skill" to be ignored. See the parties I lead, I PROMOTE teamwork.

Sorry, skills is what get a quest done. Take 6 awesome players, put them into the same party and they'll get anyquest done, no matter how hard it is, if it's possible, they'll get it done. They wouldn't need to talk, and they'll pwn the quest... because like you said yourself, most of this game is skills. The more skilled you are, the easier the game as, as simple as that. Now, take 6 awful players and get them to play as a team, incredible communication.. they'll never get the quest done, except by recalling 3/4 times for mana or wipe purpose. The trigger-happy sorcerer will blow all his mana on 4-5 Firewall per encounters when one is usually enough. The cleric will not be able to keep everyone healed. The sword and board fighter with a 42 AC will be using a slashing weapon on the DR/Blunt mobs. The quest will be a nightmare.

Now, if you look somewhere in the middle, yes teamwork is great. Makes quests easier.. but without skills, it's pointless. Without saying I'm "TEH UB3R", I can safely say I've got skills over the average PuG. At that point, you can get most the quest on yourself. You can drag the rest of the party with you. You can do a lot by yourself, and tell others what they need to do. I've lead PuGs in XC (my favorite quest), some were made of awesome players. Said a word left and right, they knew where to go, what to do. Voice chat was used to tell jokes and have fun. Other PuGs were a little less good, but far from awful players. they needed more direction. Do this, do that. I needed to drink more potions to keep myself alive, but the quest was done and we had some fun. That's what counts.

Then.. you got the bad PuG. The cleric doesn't heal you even after being at half HP for like... a minute? Everyone dies left anfd right. they run into trap. You tell them to be careful.. they don't. They waste their SPs on.. you don't even know. Yes, teamwork is important, but skills is even most. Past a point, teamwork isn't needed. You do the right thnig, no coimmunication needed. You're playing cleverly ennough for barely communication to be needed except maybe a few keywords.

To me, perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game. Finding items are nothing short of a gamble. The skills you talk about are part of a building process. Most players build their characters without ever looking at a blueprint. Imagine if we tried to build our homes in real life without looking at a blueprint. Mistakes will happen. With careful planning BEFORE you begin building your build, your characters' skills (feats and enhancements) just fall right into place as you level..

Perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game to me because they take work. You are always getting better. Or you take them for granted. Playstyle and teamwork are what's key. Skills, for the well prepared among us, are expected.

Gameplay arguement again huh? If you can't play your character half decently.. don't play him at all or learn how.

This is the first time I've seen you admit that AC is only "king" up the 12th level. Im going to take a wild guess here, and assume your self-supposed superiority diminishes greatly after 12. Finally you are being honest.

Er.. what?

I've never hid that DPS was king after level 12. But like Maldini once defended, it's not because it's less used that it's not efficient. It's not as easy, you got to know what you're doing and it takes a little more gear to be as good. So yes, DPS is easier. Yes, AC is useless on most build. I'd make any other character and would never bother about AC. I might to twink my characters so they get decent AC while levleing up, but they will have 10 + Dexterity modifier at level 14!

DPS is what makes you reach the end of the quest. I've explained it to you many times before, mostly when you said that I should be shield blocking 24h/24. Yes a barbarian is effective, and with even less gear than Borror will need to be.. but that doesn't make the build unplayable to the barbarian the most uber class in the game.

You know full well you must rely on your party to do the majority of the killing after 12. You are also getting hit much harder in level 13-14 quests, especially on elite. AC isnt king in level 13 and 14, and I enjoy bursting your bubble, so I will... AC isnt king in levels 1-12 either. You cant hit squat in the early levels, and you dont have the AC yet so you get battered. Healing yourself is your only skill early on. You are a wlking medic, and you are your most popular patient! :)

Sorry, but I consider barely needing healing at all pretty cool. I consider runnnig healerless pretty nice.

I find topping myself with potions pretty cool also.

As for the "Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC" comment... I got but one word for you.. Waaah. Kill it first before it kills you, and dont ask anyone else to do it for ya!! :)

Ok, I'll quote Riot on that one :

B- man.... I think the problem is with trying to explain mana efficiency to a Barbarian....

That's like ice skating uphill.

Teach? no... maybe not entirely.... TRAIN? yeah... Maldini's been trained! =P

:D