Can i get some input from the intimitank pros.

[Nick_RC]

Just rolled up a new toon and am looking for imput frim any pro builders out there

The post itself is in the cleric forums but he is def an intimitank and i would love to hear some suggestions from the fighters around.Thread is this one

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123165

Cheers in advance.

Rage

[Riot]

My personal opinion....

Yer a Battle Cleric..... With Intimidation ability.

Can you Tank? yes. When Buffed.

Are you as good as a Fighter/Paladin Intimitank? No.

The downsides of your build are actually it's upsides. Spell Casting.

Which is what you are counting as a positive for buffage and versatility.

The amount of mobs that Dispel alone at higher levels make running "unbuffed" used a lot more than you'd think. Not to mention the times you simply run yer spell duration out and need to rebuff. Your Mana will be gone faster than you probably expect. Leaving you in your Unbuffed state, which isn't anywhere near what an IntimiTank should look like.

Plus when you stop to cast spells, you aren't intimidating/fighting/moving fast.
You can be disrupted as well (and seeing how yer intimidating it will happen more than you think). Remember all mobs are attacking you when you Intimidate.

Not to mention the stigma of being an 11 cleric. People will expect you to heal them.

Battle Clerics and Paladins are arguably the most solo able classes in the game. You seem to have mixed the two together to make a pretty steady "Dwarven Defender" type build. And it's pretty good.

But If I wanted an "Intimi-Tank" I'd still much prefer a Riott Tank or a Krieg Tank.

[Borror0]

Intimitank, huh?

Armor class? Check.
Hp? Check, with the AC you'll get, around 300 is more than enough.
Saves? Check.
+40 Intimidate? Check.

Seems good, but like riot said. All of this is while buffed, you fall quickly behind as soon as you're unbuffed.

You will be a nice addition to any party, but this one would be a pain to PuG. ;) Anyway, that's not the subject.

Good build overall.

[D'rin]

You two are officially baned from the forums. Both reponses were constructive and polite, which has absolutly no business being on the forums. Your are suppose to rip him a new one for being short sighted and selfish for not playing the way everyone wants/expects him/her to. Geez next thing you know people will actually give praise to a build or an idea. And then we will have nothing but anarchy. I hope you two are happy.

p.s. Yes this is in sarcasm and I am happy to see someone actually give positive criticism.

[Borror0]

Well D'rin, I can can get mad at you and start a flame war because you miss-typed my name? ;)

[D'rin]

Bring It On!!!!!!!! :D

Sorry about that Borror0 I was typing at work.

[Borror0]

Bring It On!!!!!!!! :D

Sorry about that Borror0 I was typing at work.

No problem, I don't really care... as long as you don't call me burrow.. :rolleyes:

[Blazer]

No problem, I don't really care... as long as you don't call me burrow.. :rolleyes:

How about plain old burro, like the donkey. ;)

[Nick_RC]

Hi Riot,

Firstly thankyou for the reply - judging from the replies to ur original intimitankAC build you know what ur talking about. I have been at work for the past 4-5 days and have not been able to reply but would like to get some further feedback if at all possible. I put my comments in red.



My personal opinion....

Yer a Battle Cleric..... With Intimidation ability.


Actually i would never claim to be a battlecleric - a good battlecleric can cater to a party's needs, this guy could do no such thing. His sp pool is low and his enhancements are not conducive for party healing. He has a cleric logo next to his name but once you look a little closer you will see that he is no cleric. I have a battlecleric that i am proud of running and playing,who heals the entire party. This guy has a different role on the battlefield.




Can you Tank? yes. When Buffed.
Are you as good as a Fighter/Paladin Intimitank? No.


These are acouple of interesting comments so i thought id break them down somewhat, using your build as a comparison to mine.

Firstly ARMOUR CLASS

I thought to be fair i would include the same raid loot items that you have to allow for a correct comparison.


Curently...

+10 Base
+13 Armor, +5 Mith Full plate
+9 Shield, +5 Mith Tower of Bashing
+3 natural armor - Seal of Earth
+6 Dodge AC - Dodge Feat, Chattering Ring, Chaosgards
+5 Protection Necklace
+5 Combat Expertise Feat
+6 Dex Modifier (armor and Tower mastery required)
-------
57 AC (58 AC with Parrying weapon, But I don't usually use that)
.

AC

10 Base
14 Black Dragon Armour
4 Dex
9 Mithril Tower Shield.
5 Protection
5 Combat Expertise
3 Barkskin Pot/seal of earth(personally il drink the pots and free up a slot)
2 Chaosguard
3 Chattering ring
1 Pali Aura

=56 AC

Unbuffed. So I am one point behind you before i hit recitation. 1 point ahead after it is cast.

HITPOINTS.



Simultaneously I can have 322 HP in this Unbuffed state as well. For those who are curious about the effect this has on HP.
However I usually run with 292 HP. (basically, my greater false life item does not replace an AC item)

My hp.

30 Base+Draconic
30 Pali/ftr
88 Cleric
70 Con
30 GFL
16 Toughness
55 Dwarven/Fighter toughness enhancements


=319hp.

Im assuming here that you have at least a +2 con tome, being in the twilight avengers - one of those with some enhancement tweaking would give me 333. In the unbuffed state. So in fact This guy has slightly higher potential hp. Again unbuffed. The recasting of Divine power gives extra buffer hp which is quite nice too.

INTIMIDATE.

i couldnt find ur overall skill point total but you said something about base being at 35.

If i stripped off GH id be sitting at 32 with a +7 item. not bad.

TO HIT(not using GH haste CE tower Shield etc just inherent buffs)

Riot

14 BAB
9 Str
5 weapon
2 WF GWF

= 30

Grunndle(unbuffed)

11 BAB
9 Str
2 Dwarven Axe enhancement
5 weapon.

= 27

Grunndle (w/divine power/favor)

14BAB
9 Str
2 DAE
5 Weapon
3 Div favour

=33.

Actually Riot I must thankyou at this point. I was debating whether to khopesh or not in my mind before reading this and you have actually persuaded me to go Axes without even suggesting it lol. The +2 to hit will help stabilise my to hit incase of break enchantment Gr Dispel.

May i ask you a question - would you deny a pali intimitank his divine favour? It is a buff but it is a short one and inexpensive - 15p for 2 mins.Similaraly divine power is relatively inexpensive for around 2:30 of buffage. I will cover the dispelling later.

Looking at the above to-hit numbers I will be running around with 3 higher for the majority of the time.

SAVES.

Again with the To hit - i have used onlyour own intrinsic scores.

I gathered your 'base' numbers from your thread

Fort 9 (class) + 4 (stat) + 1 (LoH) = 14
Refl 4(class) + 6 (stat) + 3 (LoH) = 13
Will 4(class) + 4 (stat) + 3 (LoH) = 11

Grunddles similarly are

Fort 12 (class) + 5 (stat) + 6 (Pali Aura) = 23
Refl 3(class) + 5 (stat) + 6 (Pali Aura) = 14
Will 7(class) + 3 (stat) + 6 (Pali Aura) = 16

Unbuffed my will and fort save are significantly higher.

In summary from looking at these vital statistics i am a little baffled as to the 'when buffed' and 'as good as a fighter/paladin:no' comment comes into play. Im unsure as to what either types could bring to the table that Grunndle cant do. My hp are slightly higher, my saves are higher my ac is 1 point lower without recitation, 1 point higher with it. My to hit fluctuates 6 points from being 3 points less to 3 points higher. Dispelling occurs sure but not at the rate i beleive you think it does. I know very well the rate that it happens at - I have a battlemage that relies far more on buffage than grunndle ever would. With all due respect i would hazard to guess that I will have the extra 1p of AC and the +3 to hit over the riot tank 95% of the time.



The downsides of your build are actually it's upsides. Spell Casting.

Which is what you are counting as a positive for buffage and versatility.

Not to mention the times you simply run yer spell duration out and need to rebuff. Your Mana will be gone faster than you probably expect...

I have 3 short(ish) duration spells i will be running.

Divine Favour 2min
Divine Power 2min 12sec
Recitation 2min12 sec

It will take me id say around 6-8 seconds in a lull in fighting to cast all 3 and hit CE.

As to the sp...well my sp pool is my own. this guy is not a cleric, is not a Battlecleric. Hes neither of those. Some may call it selfish but I need my sp to do what I need to do. I wanna say something further on this later.


Leaving you in your Unbuffed state, which isn't anywhere near what an IntimiTank should look like..

Addressed.



Not to mention the stigma of being an 11 cleric. People will expect you to heal them.

Lol - Im used to stigma and breaking people of habits:) I had a battlemage with 11 int base etc. This im not worried about in the slightest. I have a large guild to run with of good buddies - they know I play alternative builds, if i tell them im not a cleric they will beleive me - if we need a cleric Il grab my Battlecleric. No big deal.



But If I wanted an "Intimi-Tank" I'd still much prefer a Riott Tank or a Krieg Tank.

Interesting thought. I'd say we are both guilty of a little bias lol:D I beleive i have shown accurately that even unbuffed im in good shape.

Then consider what i get on top of that solid platform and consider not only how many sp i will save the other caster/clerics in the grp over the course of a battle. I wont be calling out for resists when mine are dispelled. I wont need the neglevel/stat dmg patch ups post fight(mid fight mebbe but unlikely). I wont need that deathward or freedom of movement.

But most of all, most of all i can intimidate get beaten up and throw a 150hp heal on myself, turtle, switch on CE and intimdate again. The cleric could be dead and i could still draw the mobs off the high dps caster and barb and not worried about being smashed to a pulp without a nursemaid. With quicken and twitch skills i wont likely get interrupted often.

Thankyou again for the feedback it was greatky appreciated as it made me question myself - you helped me resolve my khopesh issue. Thanks again.

Rage

[Snike]

a good battlecleric can cater to a party's needs, this guy could do no such thing.

With 11 levels of cleric, what would you call it? Looks like a cleric, casts like a cleric.... but not a cleric? Hope you plan on solo'ing cause if I PUG'd with you I'd be upset. Maybe you have a good static group that would let you get away with it. Just don't expect to have happy times in PUGs.

[Borror0]

But most of all, most of all i can intimidate get beaten up and throw a 150hp heal on myself, turtle, switch on CE and intimdate again. The cleric could be dead and i could still draw the mobs off the high dps caster and barb and not worried about being smashed to a pulp without a nursemaid. With quicken and twitch skills i wont likely get interrupted often.

Nick, I know you know what you're doing... but are you really sure to mix casting and CE?

Combat Expertise has a 30 seconds cooldown nad takes heck of a long time to get back on. Just making sure you know what you're getting into.


How about plain old burro, like the donkey. ;)

Yeah... that's what I meant actually.. being not a native speaker may lead to some mistakes.:p

[Nick_RC]

With 11 levels of cleric, what would you call it? Looks like a cleric, casts like a cleric.... but not a cleric? Hope you plan on solo'ing cause if I PUG'd with you I'd be upset. Maybe you have a good static group that would let you get away with it. Just don't expect to have happy times in PUGs.

Hey Snike,

Unsure of what id call him technically. Not sure if you read my entire original post but i would never enter a pug without letting them know that I was not a healer. He looks like a cleric yes. But if you look at it he doesnt really cast like one. No CC or mass heals, no cometfalls or destructions. Its not the little symbol that defines what a character is its the sum of all the parts.

There will be a certain stigma. Sure there will. Any character with a majority of cleric levels seems to have the hardest time getting away from the HJEAL ME trap. Problem is inexperienced or poor players may require a dedicated nursemaid (no disrespect to you snike, just pondering) and will come away with a bad taste in there mouths because they died. In all honesty thats not my concern on a party role basis. I leave that to the traditional cleric or the player himself. I try not to leave any of my toons wellbeing in the hands of one person - esp. in a pug. As said before i wouldnt enter into a pug claiming to be a healer.

A clerics traditional role is to heal and fight. But like any other class when mixed and blended with another class something different may come about, with this guy I went for an intimitank option. How many tanks do you know that can enter a quest, declare they dont need any buffs, any healing, and can give DV's out to the arcane/proper cleric who needs to buff the generic traditional tank. Like I said in my origianl thread I am finding myself less and less enamoured with traditional tanks overall, the bad ones being spell point sinks taking away recources from the cleric and arcanes declaring they need buffs etc. so they can charge ahead and get beaten up. I prefer to handle my own buffs, asking nothing of anyone.

I do definately think there is a place for an intimitank in todays DDO. Intimidating hard hitting, fast moving mobs away from the barbarians and sorcerors (the in vogue classes) will save the traditional cleric and party overall alot of headaches.

Its a mindset thing is all.

Cheers

Rage

[Nick_RC]

Nick, I know you know what you're doing... but are you really sure to mix casting and CE?

Combat Expertise has a 30 seconds cooldown nad takes heck of a long time to get back on. Just making sure you know what you're getting into.

Hey bro hows things?

Yup i know exactly what im getting into. Have had several CE toons several being casters and one a pali.

I look at it this way. I split my spells into 3 categories.


1. Long Buffs - one cast per shrine barring dispel. I.e Resistance, Deathward, FoM, nightshield etc.

2. Mid Term Buffs - My big 3 are Divine Power, Recitation, Divine Favour. Catin in that order I have 2 minutes of fighting before i need to cast again. Simple enough. 1.2.3 CE.

3.Spot Healing - I have quicken so full heal, Turtle, CE. Again not too dificult.

I asked around on this board because I imagine it has the best pool of knowledge on the subject, and at the same time the biggest critics.Have been very pleased by the constructive criticism offered thus far - its very un forum like;)

Its def not a novice build, its a high maintenance build like all of mine. The only real problems with CE i can imagine will be certain tough fights on elite (fleshmaker waves on elite etc.) where i will need to spot heal more often than not. And when **** hits the fan like that id rather have the 150hp heals than the 5AC hehe. Keeps it interesting :D

Cheers

Rage.

[Riot]

You are entitled to your opinion... As I said, it's a good build.

But if you are comparing, there's 2 things my build has yours does not.

My UNbuffed Intimidate is 40.
If you sit at 32, (unbuffed) there are mobs in the game you will not intimidate reliably.

And imho, that's the first benchmark of a good Intimitank.

Secondly, I can turn a DR of 27+. (without stoneskin)
You have nothing that compares in that category at all.

Thirdly, the fighters have Focus, and Specialization. And Greaters of both in the levels to come.
While the Dwarven Axe is a nice weapon. Focus and Spec exceed that difference. (and yes, I wouldn't have bothered with the khopesh as a dwarf either).

Anyway, I don't want to string a long debate out of this. Having a unique build is part of the fun. Enjoy it.

Would I turn down this build in my group? no....

But then again, I'd be doing the Tanking. =)

[Riot]

Fourth, And I can't believe I forgot this one too.

Skill Points.

Grundle = 48 pts. at level 14 = 66 pts. at level 20.

Riott = 85 pts. at level 14 = 110 at level 20.

And if I'm guessing right, (Because I'm too lazy to look atm)
Grundle is a 32pt. build.... Compared to Riott a 28pt. build....

[Grenfell]

Secondly, I can turn a DR of 27+. (without stoneskin)
You have nothing that compares in that category at all.

While this is true, I think you're neglecting the uninterruptible Heal for 150. The net effect (survivability) is what one should focus on.

In other words, the Riott Tank might get this:

Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
Hit for 40 (27 absorbed) = 13 damage
CSW from a Cleric for 75

Grundle might see this instead:

Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Heal for 150
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage
Hit for 40 (14 absorbed) = 26 damage

The net-net is that both tanks will survive for an awful long time. I do think that Grundle might end up saving the cleric a bit more SP as he can heal himself, which cannot be underestimated, but then Riott has far better DR and Intimidate...

Nonetheless, I think both are effective tank builds.


Would I turn down this build in my group? no....

But then again, I'd be doing the Tanking. =)

Which is when Grundle would switch on PA, pick up a +5 Greataxe, and thank Riott for providing the tankage. :)

Finally... while Riott build is more specialized and has the advantages (40 Intimidate is enormous)... Grundle can Raise Dead.... Hard to overlook the utility factor there.

/gren

[Borror0]

Nick, edit your OP in the cleric forums if you make any change. I wasn't sure if you kept Khopesh or not.

About Intimidate... I've got the Reaver to fail me on a 5... with 44 Intimidate!!

[Riot]

lets Extrapolate with Buffs.

Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.

Nobody is using Mana.
I have 6 points of Damage on me.


Grundle might see this instead:

Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Hit for 40 (24 absorbed) = 16 damage
Heal for 150

==============================================
I don't know how long you've been around, or how long you've perused the fighter forums.

But there was some really good debate back in the day, before they nuked all the older posts, about what a Tank is, what a Hybrid is, and what a DPS style build was.....

A while most folks have a healthy respect for new ideas, and new concepts, and playing for fun, there's a sleight stigma when it come to Tanking. And the difference between good and better is defined by much smaller amounts.

[sigtrent]

I thought it was a pretty decent build, but there are some things about the way you present it that stick out at me.

You make pains to say it's not a cleric... but it is a cleric, 11 levels of it so obviously you took cleric for a reason.

Most cleric buffs are pretty much making up for the diff between a cleric and a fighter in combat abbilities so that's usualy a wash. What you have that really sets you appart is healing.

But you say you arn't specced out for healing...

I do have CE on my fighter/cleric and I have to say I only use CE to tank when I have a strong cleric in the party to heal me. When I'm taking care of my own healing I find CE not worth the bother. Despite the AC boost I still need to heal myself and when I do CE goes away, and by the time the timer turns off I need to heal again etc... so basicaly i just can't keep it on long enough to matter and I do better just throwing a heal and beating the **** out of my opponents. But he's not really a full tank so its not a direct comparison. If you really don't get lit up much then it might work. I like CE, I've just found it doesnt "combo" well with self healing. (Of course now I have madstone boots and am discovering that does not combo so well either :P )

[vyvy3369]

I look at it this way. I split my spells into 3 categories.

1. Long Buffs - one cast per shrine barring dispel. I.e Resistance, Deathward, FoM, nightshield etc.

2. Mid Term Buffs - My big 3 are Divine Power, Recitation, Divine Favour. Catin in that order I have 2 minutes of fighting before i need to cast again. Simple enough. 1.2.3 CE.

3.Spot Healing - I have quicken so full heal, Turtle, CE. Again not too dificult.
It's an interesting concept, but I guess I'm just not seeing how you're gaining that much over the traditional types of intimitanks.

I took a quick look over your buffs, and by my estimates you should have ~753 SP.

Extending your long-term buffs on yourself (Nightshield, DW, FoM, 2x Resists, MC:E, SoF:M, and True Seeing) would take up 245, and I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you skipped SoF:M for only 210. Which leaves let's say 500 SP.

Your 3 short-term buffs extended cost you 90 SP, each time they're cast. Combine that with an estimate of say one Quickened Heal every time you'd be casting these for another 45, for 135 every ~2 minutes.

So you'd get maybe 10 minutes of combat out of your remaining SP, which is realistic in some dungeons but definitely not in others. Not extending your initial buffs also saves some SP and you could get another go of your short-term buffs off, and you'll obviously get more/less rounds of buffs off depending on how much you actually have to Heal in a particular instance.

Compare that to say a Paladin intimitank. They're going to have the same AC with no need for Recitation. Similar attack bonuses because they also get Divine Favor, and can cast it about as often as Grunndle. They may lose out on some of the other buffs, but nothing too significant really. LoH is arguably going to be similar to each of your Heals, and they get the option of having several of them also. IIRC you don't even have the option to cast for 30 seconds after turning CE back on, and that pretty well negates one of the best parts of this type of build over the others, and it's one of the thing that really annoys me while playing my paladin intimitank.

A lot of the buffs that you'll be using on yourself would probably be cast on the tank anyways, since you're relying on having a cleric there too. It's an interesting concept and I'm sure you'd make it work just fine, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to play than a typical intimitank, and I'm just not seeing how it's significantly enough better to justify the pitfalls.

Edit: One thing that would really help a lot is to ignore Divine Power. It's great that it saves you a slot from a str item...but it's expensive to cast ALL the time.

[Grenfell]

lets Extrapolate with Buffs.

Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (37 absorbed) = 3 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.

37 DR now is it?

Okay, let's see...

9 BAB DR (14/2+2)
4 (Tower)
5 (+5)
3 (SM)
3 (ISM)
10 Stoneskin
-------------
34 DR

Seeing as how Riott is human, and doesn't have access to Dwarven Shield Mastery... where's the other 3 DR coming from? Going to assume you forgot that you only get one source of DR apart from blocking DR, so you've actually got 34 DR.

Compared to:

7 BAB (11/2 + 2)
2 BAB (Divine Power)
4 Tower
5 +5
10 Stoneskin
-------------
28 DR

I'm assuming Grundle doesn't go Dwarven Shield Mastery enhancements, which could take it to 31 DR. If he sacrifices feats (like PA or Improved Crit) for the feats, now we're talking 37 DR which is the max DR under current mechanics, as far as I'm aware.

You've got Jerky? So does Grundle.

Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.

Total damage taken: 60. Sheesh, that's not even a Heal. A CSW would take care of that.

But oh wait... Jerky ticks once every 6 secs. So let's see really what that combat log looks like for an intimidating tank with multiple mobs wailing on him:

Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Riott Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage

Riott has 34 damage on him.

Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Grundle Eats the Jerky to heal 2Hp.
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage
Hit for 40 (28 absorbed) = 12 damage

Grundle has 58 damage on him.

So let's not blow things out of proportion, eh? Difference is Grundle can self-heal for as long as he's got SP. Riott needs a healer (even if wand-whipping) around for any serious questing.


I don't know how long you've been around, or how long you've perused the fighter forums.

But there was some really good debate back in the day, before they nuked all the older posts, about what a Tank is, what a Hybrid is, and what a DPS style build was.....

A while most folks have a healthy respect for new ideas, and new concepts, and playing for fun, there's a sleight stigma when it come to Tanking. And the difference between good and better is defined by much smaller amounts.

I've been around the block a few times, Riott. And I was in on that debate. Your point is?

You're entitled to your opinion that you'd rather have a Riott or Krieg tank, or a Borror0 tank, or whatever. But it might be better for all involved if you just focused on where you see weaknesses, strengths, possible problems, etc. You've pointed out two -- dispelling mobs, and Intimidate score. DR is actually in the context of survivability, and it's awfully hard to say that this build suffers in that department.

Well, either way, nick will level the build up and give us all some insights on how it actually works.

/gren

[Nick_RC]

You are entitled to your opinion... As I said, it's a good build.

But if you are comparing, there's 2 things my build has yours does not.

My UNbuffed Intimidate is 40.
If you sit at 32, (unbuffed) there are mobs in the game you will not intimidate reliably.

And imho, that's the first benchmark of a good Intimitank.

Secondly, I can turn a DR of 27+. (without stoneskin)
You have nothing that compares in that category at all.

Thirdly, the fighters have Focus, and Specialization. And Greaters of both in the levels to come.
While the Dwarven Axe is a nice weapon. Focus and Spec exceed that difference. (and yes, I wouldn't have bothered with the khopesh as a dwarf either).



Perfect this is exactly the sort of feedback i needed - just had to get down to it is all. Thanks again for replying. I wasnt 100% sure of how high i would need to get the number for intimidate so left my static intimidate item at only +7 in the hopes of the dragon helm. Ok breakdown would be

17 Ranks
13/15 Item
5 charisma (6 with +2 tome:mad: )
1 Ftr int 1

So that leaves it at 36/38 unbuffed which is alot closer that the 32 previously stated

Add GH and head of good fortune etc thats 42/44 - quite nice.

Sadly i dont have the feats for shield mastery/impr shield mastery. However can and have sued 3 points from dwarven enhancements too narrow my gap too 3 from you.

Again thanks for the feedback its these little gems that will help get the build to its A game.


So let's not blow things out of proportion, eh? Difference is Grundle can self-heal for as long as he's got SP. Riott needs a healer (even if wand-whipping) around for any serious questing.

This is the crux of it really. I do alot of serious questing short man relying on my buddies and myself to perform far above the expectations. We more often than not run without a cleric(not for lack of having them we just like to use arcanes etc.) This guy might not quite reach the peak of the specialist being a couple of points shy of both your intimidate score and dr when blocking. However when lookingat the overall picture of not running with a cleric or running with an unreliable pug...i will be very thankfull for those full heals i can toss myself :) Im not wanting to argue that its better im just purely asking for advise/input - and the discussion here has helped me alot with finetuning.


You make pains to say it's not a cleric... but it is a cleric, 11 levels of it so obviously you took cleric for a reason. What you have that really sets you appart is healing.

But you say you arn't specced out for healing...


Come now sigtrent - you have built more than enough builds to look a little closer :)

I have a base wisdom of 8. I have no MT feats. I have no room for a devotion 6+ item. I cant afford many life healing and crit enhancents. My sp pool is small (comparatively), I have 3 lvls of other classes. Im not even a battlecleric. Like i said i dont even know WHAT to call this guy. Sure i can heal others but they will be oh so weak in comparison to a normal cleric. I took cleric levels because of the Healing yes. Absolutely. But it was to heal myself. Self sufficiency is a mustfor me because i hate having to rely on others. A cleric in my mind is someone that can heal an entire party. So yes technically i am a cleric in name, BUT its a means to an end, healing others is not my priority, in fact it barely scrapes the radar. My job is to stay alive, draw agro off the dpsers and allow the arcanes and the proper cleric the luxury of not worrying about me in any aspect. Not for healing not for buffing.



But he's not really a full tank so its not a direct comparison. If you really don't get lit up much then it might work. I like CE, I've just found it doesnt "combo" well with self healing.

Aye i know what your saying and it will be interesting to see how it pans out. However after playing for this long and especially with high maintenance builds like battlemages etc im fairly certain i will be able to figure out a pattern to make it work.


A lot of the buffs that you'll be using on yourself would probably be cast on the tank anyways, since you're relying on having a cleric there too. It's an interesting concept and I'm sure you'd make it work just fine, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to play than a typical intimitank, and I'm just not seeing how it's significantly enough better to justify the pitfalls.

Edit: One thing that would really help a lot is to ignore Divine Power. It's great that it saves you a slot from a str item...but it's expensive to cast ALL the time.


Heh and this is just it Vy - i dont want to rely on anyone else - if its a really tough quest il have another cleric along but for alot of content there is no need at all. I would much rather give the cleric the freedom of those extra sp he doesnt need to use on me to buff or heal or fight himself. Not to mention i can actually give BACK sp etc. Also palis are limited to what 4 Lay on hands if maxed? When im short manning and intimidating im likely gonna need more than that AND if push comes to shove we just slow down a fraction l and i full heal myself using scrolls. Wand whipping to me (IMHO) is a thing of the past for tanks. Just to many HP now. This guy is prob the most buffing friendly tank out there. Everyone jsut gets self sufficent. About the Divine power - I hear ya - i have a +6 str itemon my BC for when i dont need the extra to hit. Im guessing il have a similar arrangement with this guy. Thanks for the feedback



Well, either way, nick will level the build up and give us all some insights on how it actually works.

/gren


Exactly - I think it has the potential to do very well. I will try it and let everyone know.

[Borror0]

I was thinking about you when fighting Doomsphere... you'll be dead weight versus beholders...

Not they crawl everywhere, but you know...

[Nick_RC]

Heh you gotta be kidding me :) His saves are so high he will only fail on a one post dispelling i can greater restor and full heal myself, fighting beholders il equip a +6 str item and take off CE + Greataxe and i hardly think im dead weight. This is the thing im only +3 behind a 14 tank. my str will be 28 so repsectable - with a decent greater bane il be doing good dmg and will have the healing power to take care of any dmg. Dead weight... I hardly think so:D

Edit - My BC ugonnadie specialises in killing those suckers. Most people prefer the cleric to hide. Ridiculous let the low fort save org/bard do the ressin if necessay. A cleric has a fort save as high as a tanks. And better will.


I was thinking about you when fighting Doomsphere... you'll be dead weight versus beholders...

Not they crawl everywhere, but you know...

[Riot]

my bad... 34.. I was looking at my number and forgot I had Adamantine Armor on atm.... Hey we all make mistakes...
And in a perfect world your numbers might make sense.

However, yer utopia isn't exactly how it works. You want the comparison, but are arguing "Tank scenario", with people who TANK. You think this is the first caster CE type on the block? Paladins have been doing this for far longer. And are VERY aware of the CE, disruption, Intimidate issues that are involved with Tanking.

lets recalculate...........
using Jungle Cloak. And something a bit more realistic. Since you've "Been around the block".

Riott
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Miss
Riott Bashes Mob for 18 Damage
Miss
Miss
Riott Swings and Misses.
Riott heals 6hp (Human Recovery 2)
Miss
Hit for 40 (34 absorbed) = 6 damage
Riott Bashes Mob for 18 Damage
Miss
Riott Swings and Misses
Miss
Riott Bashes Mob for 16 Damage
Riott heals 6hp (Human Recovery 2)


Okay, let's see How Grundle looks.


Grundle Casts a Spell, Combat Expertise turns off.
(Where'd my AC go?)
Hit for 40 (oops, you were casting, no DR) = 40 damage
Grundle is disrupted!!!
Hit for Hit for 40 (no DR) = 40 damage
(Grundle panics and blocks. And hits Combat Expertise)
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed, missed that spell BAB boost) = 14 damage
(Combat Expertise engages)
Miss
Grundle Heals for 5
Grundle Bashes mob for 12. (too bad that spell got disrupted)
Hit for 40 (oops, No ISB no DR) = 40 damage
Grundle decided that's not a good Idea.
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed) = 14 damage
Miss
Miss
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed) = 14 damage
Grundle Heals for 5


17 Ranks
13/15 Item
5 charisma (6 with +2 tome )
1 Ftr int 1

So that leaves it at 36/38 unbuffed which is alot closer that the 32 previously stated

Add GH and head of good fortune etc thats 42/44 - quite nice.

It's quotes like this that tell us you haven't read the fighter forums much on Tanking.
When I use the gear you are sugesting, My Intimidate hits 52.

There's still 2 mobs in the game I can fail on.
I consider that alot more reliable than your 44.
Especially if we get debuffed.
My 48 trumps your 40.


So let's not blow things out of proportion, eh? Difference is Grundle can self-heal for as long as he's got SP. Riott needs a healer (even if wand-whipping) around for any serious questing.

Uhh, what makes you think I don't have a UMD skill?

Potions?
Lest we not forget, Human Recovery 2-3 makes me a more efficient target of healing, which includes wands, potions and even ITEMS like the Jungle Cloak.


However when lookingat the overall picture of not running with a cleric or running with an unreliable pug...i will be very thankfull for those full heals i can toss myself Im not wanting to argue that its better im just purely asking for advise/input - and the discussion here has helped me alot with finetuning.
See, you are making the mistake of believing I must have a cleric as well. That's where the problem rests.

[Riot]

Secondly lets keep things in perspective.

His "ideal" equipment.


Projected Items (Ideal)

Head – Wisdom (Dragon)
Neck – Prot +5 (Torq from DQ)
Trinket – Bloodstone/head
Cloak - Charisma
Belt – Heavy Fort and GFL – New Preraid
Bracers - CG
Boots – 15% stride +5 resistance (Dex)
Gloves – Dex (Demon Queen)
R1 - Con
R2 – Intimidate (Titan)
Goggles – W/E (Demon Queen)
Body – Black Dragon armour


This is NOT the equipment you are using to compare to me above.
So pick one side of the fence.

I'm using equipment on the character I have right now.
You don't see me adopting your equipment list when is suits me.

Lets consider the fact that in my build, WITH the stats I've been posting, my Cloak slot is either Greater Resist, or BLUR. (Zephyre cloak)

Your's is dedicated to a CHA boost. If you match me, you lose Intimidate AND saves.... Now recalculate.... OR suck up the extra damage into your calculations.

your're trying to have your cake and eat it too... And it doesn't work like that.

[Nick_RC]

OK trying to keep this constructive.Lets consider this first.




lets recalculate...........


Okay, let's see How Grundle looks.


Grundle Casts a Spell, Combat Expertise turns off.
(Where'd my AC go?)
Hit for 40 (oops, you were casting, no DR) = 40 damage
Grundle is disrupted!!!
Hit for Hit for 40 (no DR) = 40 damage
(Grundle panics and blocks. And hits Combat Expertise)
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed, missed that spell BAB boost) = 14 damage
(Combat Expertise engages)
Miss
Grundle Heals for 5
Grundle Bashes mob for 12. (too bad that spell got disrupted)
Hit for 40 (oops, No ISB no DR) = 40 damage
Grundle decided that's not a good Idea.
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed) = 14 damage
Miss
Miss
Hit for 40 (26 absorbed) = 14 damage
Grundle Heals for 5

Hehe. Now i think you may be skewing this a little in your favour.

Now my mid term buffs are the only spells i will be casting with 2 min repetition. Ie DP DF, rec, (except for full heals) and they will be cast in those lulls in combat that are common in every quest. See the thing is riot you are assuming worst case scenario. Actually i have pretty much no spells that will be disrupted. As previously mentioned those mid term buffs are cast in lulls. It goes 1,2,3, Quicken, CE. 5 clicks. Midst battle the only spell il be casting will be heal, which is uninteruptable with quicken. In the rare case where i cannot manage the DP timing(and let me tell you i play very intensive micromanagement builds so the finesse of handling this does not concern me in the slightest) quicken will be on anyhow...so uninterruptable again. And after your excellent point about my shield blocking capability i respecced my enhancments to include Shield Mastery 3. (or w/e its called a little drunk atm lol) Heh the way you describe my actions in this insinuates amatuer status. Nowhere have i questioned you prowess, im hoping for similar respect. So considering DP will be on 99% if the time and now i have the dwarven enhancements i will be up to 31DR. 3 shy of yourself. At 3 points of damage the difference is marginal. You can compare the human versatility enhancement for the jungle cloak but thats, what, one charge? now without that you are steadily taking damage.... as you say you have pots and wands(you have umd by the looks of it but as a cross class skill and having to swap cartouche in etc im guessing ul be using moderate wands and only in between fights?) but comparing a pot to an uninterruptable full heal for 130-150 is frankly not comparable.

Basically you are assuming best conditions for you and worst for me. Hardly fair.

However keeping this positive and to the point this might help me by changing PA for ISB. Considering the goals of this build that feat is prob more prudent than PA. I will have 2 more feats coming at 15 so when the cap increases i have more room to move.


It's quotes like this that tell us you haven't read the fighter forums much on Tanking.
When I use the gear you are sugesting, My Intimidate hits 52.

There's still 2 mobs in the game I can fail on.
I consider that alot more reliable than your 44.
Especially if we get debuffed.
My 48 trumps your 40.

May i humbly ask for your equipment breakdown? I would be interested to see what it looks like.

For 53 intimidate im guessing it looks like this?

17 - base
4 - Ftr int
2 Cha (now is this achieved through an eagles splendour pot? its only +4 from ur 32p base so im guessing so)
3 skill focus
2 luck (head im guessing)
4 GH

= 32 + 13/15 item = 45-47....... am i missing something?


See, you are making the mistake of believing I must have a cleric as well. That's where the problem rests.

Sure with enough pots a tank can do fine in an average quest. In on elite with the tough fights im unsure as to ur capabilities at healing yourself in all honesty.


Secondly lets keep things in perspective.

His "ideal" equipment.



This is NOT the equipment you are using to compare to me above.
So pick one side of the fence.

I'm using equipment on the character I have right now.
You don't see me adopting your equipment list when is suits me.

Lets consider the fact that in my build, WITH the stats I've been posting, my Cloak slot is either Greater Resist, or BLUR. (Zephyre cloak).

Again id love to see ur equipment breakdown. Im guessing it looks something like this.

H - +6 wisdom
N - +5 prot
T - head
C - resist or blur(from ur post)
Be - dq(from ur post)
Bo-dex
Br - CG
Gl - ?
R1 - dq
R2 - titan
Gogs - ?
Body - +5 mith FP.

Maybe you put dex ongloves and move ur resistance to boots? as it stands i cant see GFL nor hvy fort nor resistance, nor cha. Wheres ur 14 cha coming from? like im guessing pots....which are dispellable.

Please show me ur equipment or else i am likely to call you out on cake eating. Im am and have been trying to keep this thread focused on the positive. Roll with me on this one.



Your's is dedicated to a CHA boost. If you match me, you lose Intimidate AND saves.... Now recalculate.... OR suck up the extra damage into your calculations.

your're trying to have your cake and eat it too... And it doesn't work like that.

Not sure if you want to bring saves into this. Assume im using jerky. Even then the damage im taking is, what, 3 less than you? sure you get ur cloak..for a couple of extra minutes for 2 minutes for 1 REST PER SHRINE.

Are you really comparing a 2 minute clickys and pots to quickened full heals and suggesting near parity in healing? From the discussion we have had i can see 2 good points you have made(well 3 but the third I knew). 1 being my intimidate score being lower than a specialist, 2 my shield blocking capabilities, 3 dispelling.

1. Is being addressed. (please also enlighten me on the 52 - not being sarcastic just interested is all)
2. Helped with dwarven enhancements.
3. Not nearly as damaging as you likely think. Trust me i have a battlemage. I know what dispelling is like.


Look im going to thank you yet again Riot because i think you have helped me iron out yet another potential kink. Equipment. The numbers i quoted were for an adjusted equipment list that was in my head not on paper. SO apologies for the seeming cake consumption :D .

H - Intimidate 13-15
N - +5 prot
T - head
C - Charisma
Be - Hvyfort and GFL
Bo- resistance
Br - CG
Gl - Dex
R1 - Con
R2 - titan
Gogs - seeker +4 gogs look pretty sexy.
Body - Blackdragon

To achieve this i think im gonna have to do what i have been contemplating doing from the start. Dropping str to 16. rasing int to 13+1 tome for more skill points allowing for balance/concentration dex to 13 +1 tome and wisdom to 12 +2 tome for favour allowing me to get to 16 with clerical enhancements thereby allowing me to go without a wisdom item. By dropping str im only 2 higher with DF/DP.

I cant be bothered updating tonight like i said ive been drinking but this is likely a good change.

Thoughts?

[EinarMal]

OK trying to keep this constructive.Lets consider this first.

Thoughts?

Nick your build makes an awesome intimidate tank. I think trading a few points of DR and couple of points in intimidate for better saves, full heals, and all the utility of 11 levels of cleric is a great trade that 99.9999% of people would say makes for a better overall build.

Riott will never agree that any tank/fighter/barbarian/ranger or fighting type of any sort even remotely compares to his build. Your wasting your time even debating him about it.

The funny thing is so what if there are a few mobs you cannot intimidate. Drop a blade barrier down and now you have their attention. As a cleric you have options that a fighter trying to get agro could never dream of.

[Riot]

Riott will never agree that any tank/fighter/barbarian/ranger or fighting type of any sort even remotely compares to his build. Your wasting your time even debating him about it.

That's not the issue. I guess you missed the part where I said it's "a good build".

It's just not what I'd (being me personally) would consider a top intimitank.

There's the Riott build, The Krieg Build, the halfling build, and even the Dwarven Defender build who I'd consider more apt at Pure Tanking.

This cleric build imho, is basically an overzealous Paladin. Which is Fine. It looks plenty survivable, soloable, and self sufficient.

----------------------------------------------------------
One thing folks don't understand about a Pure Fighter build is their ability to actually be self sufficient.

I can solo the Demon Queen, IN MELEE. Using only a Jungle Cloak, and a handful of Potions. For heals. (and maybe some Jerky cuz it tastes good).

You use Quicken to cast Heal. That's alot of Mana.
As a test, Run through Chains of Flame, solo, Using Zero shrines.
Killing everything in the immediate path for completion.

let me know how far you get before you run out of mana.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I would agree, I see no point for Power Attack in your build. Imho that's a wasted feat. You're trying to Tank, and not DPS. You simply don't have the feats to be a more than basic average DPS'er. Except for the occasional spell.

Please Understand, that just because I don't list my 14th level Cleric in my Sig doesn't mean I don't mean I don't know anything about them.

------------------------------------------------------------

As far as my equipment goes, being a tank takes alot of gear for various situations.

it's all about efficiency management.

Fighting Beholders is vastly different than Tanking the Demon Queen.
Fighting numbers over time is different than Boss Mobs.
And no one set of gear is ideal for it all.

You can have a universal set, but then again that's not optimum.

I carry three armors, over 20 weapons, 4 shields, and at least two items for each slot.

Not to mention Resist gear.

If you want to know what I have, think about most high end gear out there, and raid loot. I probably have it. and more than 1 of some. Honestly, there's not much out there I need or want.

If there's anything I look for these days it's specialty stuff.
Like Icy Burst Great Gnoll Bane longswords for running Chains of Flame. =P

Things that have very specific purposes.

[Nick_RC]

Where to begin.I think il finish with the start.


I can solo the Demon Queen, IN MELEE. Using only a Jungle Cloak, and a handful of Potions. For heals. (and maybe some Jerky cuz it tastes good).

Not the best example to be perfectly honest - if you are soloing her then you know the method. A malformed halfling with a sharp stick and a throwing rock can take her down solo. My buddies and i two man because she bugs far less.


You use Quicken to cast Heal. That's alot of Mana.
As a test, Run through Chains of Flame, solo, Using Zero shrines.
Killing everything in the immediate path for completion.

let me know how far you get before you run out of mana.

Hehe - is this really a good question for you to pose?

Firstly - why would i use no shrines? whats the point in that? thats like telling you not to use pots and see how far your hp's last. Hmmmmm.

Secondly - Are you suggesting that you in fact would last longer in a solo run with no outside resources being used? I have an ac of 1 higher with recitation than you. My DR is 3 less when blocking. but we sure wont be shield bashing our way through the quest solo. My to hit is 2-3 points higher. I can cast all resistances on myself. My heals will hit for 150 hp. It looks as if you are using this run as a tester to see the qualitites of a solo survival tank(and seeing your build as favorable of the two) but restricting the external factors like pots etc. If this is the case and in fact you are suggesting the viability of my tanking abilities in a solo situation vs yours I can guarantee you i would last far longer than you under similar circumstamces, i.e no pots. You cannot compare the two in a situation like this. Its only the extremes of your build in the DR and intimidate score that i lose out by a couple of points. All other aspects Grunddle fairs between mildly better to substantially better, with the exception of ac which has close parity.





Please Understand, that just because I don't list my 14th level Cleric in my Sig doesn't mean I don't mean I don't know anything about them.

Im not sure i did suggest that from memory. However may i ask you a question? Is your cleric a battlecleric? I mean a hard core dedicated BC. Mine is. He is a 2 handed PA greataxe wielding, 343hp 1231sp,13cleric/1 ftr. Can heal a party with the best of them and will outdmg all but twinked barbs, and fighters. Its my experience with him and my high ac intimitank pure fighter that made me want to make this guy. If you play a battlecleric then this build will make perfect sense.

------------------------------------------------------------


As far as my equipment goes, being a tank takes alot of gear for various situations.

it's all about efficiency management.

Fighting Beholders is vastly different than Tanking the Demon Queen.
Fighting numbers over time is different than Boss Mobs.
And no one set of gear is ideal for it all.

Dang riot this is coming off awful patronising. Im not sure if you meant it to be but these arnt words of wisdom these are commonly known facts. Heres the deal tho. You called me out in equipment comparison saying i cant have mycake and eat it and then you give this as a reply? What is the equipment you would use as your stock standard equipment walking into a new quest? Thats what im saying as a generic list. New content for example. If you answer to anything in this post please respond to this, not only because i am very curious as to what your generic latout would be but because it may give me insight as to how better improve my own. Similarly id like to see the breakdown of ur endgame scores.


You can have a universal set, but then again that's not optimum.

I carry three armors, over 20 weapons, 4 shields, and at least two items for each slot.

Not to mention Resist gear.

To adress you comments above - I currently have 13 hotbars for my battlemage and 12 for my BC. Grunndle will be about that too. Playing a tank is PLAIN SAILING in the micromanagement stakes compared to a good Battlecleric/Battlemage. On my cleric alone i have over 3 toolbars of weapons. My battlemage has more because his build requires precise timing and exact buffage and very specific weapons to keep his to hit at a level where i dont miss with PA on.

Please understand, that I have essentially 3 combat focused characters in my sig, (barbarian, battlemage, battlecleric)and that I have a firm grip on combat efficiency.




If you want to know what I have, think about most high end gear out there, and raid loot. I probably have it. and more than 1 of some. Honestly, there's not much out there I need or want.

Sounds like my 4 other high lvl toons. Thats the one thing im not looking forward to doing is the grind for raid loot. Although its prob not as bad as i think because all my other guys have 90% of the loot they need.

And to conclude.



It's just not what I'd (being me personally) would consider a top intimitank.

There's the Riott build, The Krieg Build, the halfling build, and even the Dwarven Defender build who I'd consider more apt at Pure Tanking.

This cleric build imho, is basically an overzealous Paladin. Which is Fine. It looks plenty survivable, soloable, and self sufficient.

Now this i cannot fault you with because it IS your personal opinion. I noticed you placed emphasis on 'pure tanking'. This may hold up to purist scrutiny(ie several points shy of DR, Int). But you are looking at it in a vacuum. Add in just a few variables such as a bad cleric etc. and I know who, through flexibility and utility, will be there for the long haul.


EDIT - I must thank Riot and Gren for the healthy debate in this and the original post itself. This is exactly what i was looking for. I wanted to thrash the details with the staunchest of the purist intimitanks to see where i was weak so i could modify and adjust. I have already finetuned a number of things such as feats, blocking DR, khopesh vs axe and possibly initial stats. So thankyou and if you feel so inclined keep it coming!
Rage

[Borror0]

Hehe - is this really a good question for you to pose?

Firstly - why would i use no shrines? whats the point in that? thats like telling you not to use pots and see how far your hp's last. Hmmmmm.

Riot meant that we you'll do with mana, he can do 24 hours a day 7 day per week, non-stop. This a place intimitanks beat you. An intimitank never shrines, except for clickies, but shrinning is not important to us. If I shrine, it's for my Planar Grids.

And for your information, without potions, my HP last a long while.


Dang riot this is coming off awful patronising. Im not sure if you meant it to be but these arnt words of wisdom these are commonly known facts. Heres the deal tho. You called me out in equipment comparison saying i cant have mycake and eat it and then you give this as a reply? What is the equipment you would use as your stock standard equipment walking into a new quest? Thats what im saying as a generic list. New content for example. If you answer to anything in this post please respond to this, not only because i am very curious as to what your generic latout would be but because it may give me insight as to how better improve my own. Similarly id like to see the breakdown of ur endgame scores.

I'd be curious to see Riot's gear and endgame scores, but he keeps them secret. ;)

[Riot]

Not the best example to be perfectly honest - if you are soloing her then you know the method. A malformed halfling with a sharp stick and a throwing rock can take her down solo. My buddies and i two man because she bugs far less.

I'm sorry, I should have added "without cheating/bugging/ jumping around like an idiot".

Not sure which of those methods you are using. She has never bugged on me.
So I'm not sure what you are doing to bug her.



Firstly - why would i use no shrines? whats the point in that? thats like telling you not to use pots and see how far your hp's last. Hmmmmm.

Secondly - Are you suggesting that you in fact would last longer in a solo run with no outside resources being used?........

No it's a question of durability without the ability to shrine.
Just try it, and see how you fare. It'll be very interesting to see how far you get. Your offensive capabilities balancing vs the various mob types and classes in that quest is a good measure. As well as measuring how your defenses will last Vs. Mob various methods of attack.

Tell you what. I'll save you the the trouble and get a Paladin and my cleric to do it, and see how long they last.


Is your cleric a battlecleric? I mean a hard core dedicated BC. Mine is. He is a 2 handed PA greataxe wielding, 343hp 1231sp,13cleric/1 ftr. Can heal a party with the best of them and will outdmg all but twinked barbs, and fighters. Its my experience with him and my high ac intimitank pure fighter that made me want to make this guy. If you play a battlecleric then this build will make perfect sense.
No, my Beta Cleric was a Battle Cleric.
My current Cleric is a Heal/Turn Undead Specialist.

I've seen both sides.


To adress you comments above - I currently have 13 hotbars for my battlemage and 12 for my BC. Grunndle will be about that too. Playing a tank is PLAIN SAILING in the micromanagement stakes compared to a good Battlecleric/Battlemage. On my cleric alone i have over 3 toolbars of weapons. My battlemage has more because his build requires precise timing and exact buffage and very specific weapons to keep his to hit at a level where i dont miss with PA on.

Please understand, that I have essentially 3 combat focused characters in my sig, (barbarian, battlemage, battlecleric)and that I have a firm grip on combat efficiency.

Wow. I only use about 8 on my Cleric. Hard to imagine using more.
With Riott, I have alot of "condensed gear". Meaning gear that has multiple uses. It lets me save alot of space. That's for sure.

I can see that in your sig, please understand I don't list all my toons in my sig. One of which is the robed fighter DPS build. I do understand DPS.

And also the Arcane Trickster build. Rogue/Wizard combo.
And a Two hander build. (straight Fighter)
And a Halfling Hurler build. Fighter/Barb/Rogue


Now this i cannot fault you with because it IS your personal opinion. I noticed you placed emphasis on 'pure tanking'. This may hold up to purist scrutiny(ie several points shy of DR, Int). But you are looking at it in a vacuum. Add in just a few variables such as a bad cleric etc. and I know who, through flexibility and utility, will be there for the long haul.
Well, I think the biggest reasons I'd not put your build in the top tier.
Is mainly because you rely on Casting spells. Both combatively, and Buffing.
I know you want to cast all your spells between fights.
But we all know at some point you will HAVE to cast during a fight at some point. CLICK, off goes Combat Expertise.... That's a Detriment. Paladins know it well.

And secondly, DEBUFFED or out of Mana, your build breaks down. And more and more quests have mobs debuffing. INtimidating a group of casters tends to get you debuffed in a hurry. Being able to operate debuffed in essential to being a "top tier" Intimitank. (In My Opinion).




EDIT - I must thank Riot and Gren for the healthy debate in this and the original post itself. This is exactly what i was looking for. I wanted to thrash the details with the staunchest of the purist intimitanks to see where i was weak so i could modify and adjust. I have already finetuned a number of things such as feats, blocking DR, khopesh vs axe and possibly initial stats. So thankyou and if you feel so inclined keep it coming!
Rage

All that being said, I'm not mad, or angry at you, with you, near you. Or whatever....
You wanted a purist debate, well, you got one. =)

That being said, Your build is FINE.
In fact I'd say it's a very unique twist on the Battlecleric with a heavy stress for defense.

If it was my build I'd probably Drop Intimidate, Drop Combat Expertise, Keep Power Attack and go offensive. Maybe picking up Cleave.

You're build is self sustaining, and obviously melee oriented. It's got more spell versatility than a Paladin. Which is what most Battle clerics are looking for.

Personally, I've always wanted to try a Cleric Archer.....But that would be a tough sell to a PUG group...

[Riot]

I'd be curious to see Riot's gear and endgame scores, but he keeps them secret.

It's not so much I keep em secret more than it's just alot of typing to list all my gear. And combo's.

As a standard Combo, (If I have no idea what to expect).

Unbuffed,
I have a 53 AC, 2 Greater Resists, And my saves are maxed.
This also leaves room for Madstone to Proc off the boots I'd wear.

With one button, I can go up 3 AC, for losing 2 to all saves. (vs. Melee only mobs) And add Blur.

With another Button, I can grab 10 DR/peirce and a damage sheild. for losing 1 AC. (bramble casters)

By switching armor, I can grab another Greater Resist at the cost of 1AC.
(I can run 3 Greater Resists, Unbuffed, at a 52 AC).

With another button I can add Freedom of movement.

Items included above, Seal of Earth, Dragon Armor, Cloaks of Greater Resist, Bramble Casters, +6 Dex gloves, Madstone Boots. And Kundarak Delving boots, Zephyre Cloak, & the Necklace from Reaver. (chain lighting only sucks cuz it knocks out yer Combat Expertise, otherwise it's a blast... Literally)

It's possible for me, to run with 3 resists (2 of which are greater), blur, freedom of movement. And still have a 55AC.

Anyway... you guys can play with that... That's just for starters.

[Borror0]

Unbuffed,
I have a 53 AC, 2 Greater Resists, And my saves are maxed.


I'm trying to get somewhere in that direction, Greater Fire item is needed for the dman Abbot's inferno.


I might try a Greater Cloak at the cost of +3 to saves (+6 Cha cloak). Mind sharing where your Greater are?

EDIT: Maybe if I can get my hands around a Bluefire necklace, I'd drop the +5 Protection item and just wear Spectacular optics instead. Googles are the trash spot anyway.

[Riot]

Cloaks are my Primary slot for versatile greater resists.
Dragon armor is another Especially for cold.
Reaver necklace grants Electricity as well.

And of course you can find Rings/shields and other armors.

I don't like the other armor options because the AC drops to low (except on the dragon armors).
And I'd only use a Shield in the absence of melees. Which isn't often. Although I used to use the ER Shield in VoN5 regularly.
before I got the Necklace.

Rings are an option Only if its a must. Seal of Earth grants 10 Acid, which basically covers Melf's and Burning Blood (acid half), and greatly reduces acid fog/rain.

The 3 biggest resists in game are Fire, Electricity and Cold. Acid is fourth. and Sonic is a distance last.

Running White Dragon Armor, Fire Cloak, Reaver Necklace grants 30 to CR/FR/ER, and a seal of Earth adds 10 to AR.

Not bad at all unbuffed.

[Borror0]

The 3 biggest resists in game are Fire, Electricity and Cold. Acid is fourth. and Sonic is a distance last.

I carry normal Resist Energy:Acid potions for Acid, it covers 100% of all Acid damage in the game so far.

I don't have/really want Seal of Earth because rings are really important to me. I'll try to get one, but that'll be for Stoneskin clicky. I prefer Madstone boots/Barkskin potions. Of course, they are dispelable, but it takes so little to drink a potion that it's not even noticable.

Just curious... if rings are Seal and Chattering and that your cloak are resists... do you bother with Cha item at all? I'll reaching sooner or later (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/CircleofHatred.jpg) 48 Intimidate and I have better Cha than you.. Just curious about how you get it so high.

Sorry for all these questions, trying to optimise my gear lately... and who is better than the master to teach me. ;)

[Riot]

Not usually do i worry about my CHA boost.
If I do, Ring of the Silver Concord subs in very well. With CHA boost and Command on it.

Fox's cunning items also work as well. But Honestly, right now there's only 1 mob in game I have found that I fail on and it's not that big a mob anyway.
Skeletan Guardian at the End of Gianthold Tor.

[maddmatt70]

Why not wear two chatterers and drink bark pots? A friend of mine scoped out a 65 or so ac dwarven fighter/pally and this was a key component of his plan, but of course he will never get there with the way raid loot drops now.

Norg

[Blazer]

The Dodge AC from the Chattering Ring does not stack with itself. IIRC, it used to, but was fixed a few months ago. Dodge AC from the same source does not stack.

[Borror0]

The Dodge AC from the Chattering Ring does not stack with itself. IIRC, it used to, but was fixed a few months ago. Dodge AC from the same source does not stack.

I've never heard about two Chattering rings stacking.


The dodge bonuses for multiple chattering rings are being treated as coming from the same source so they do not stack.

What I see from this is: "The game treats Chattering rings like the same source and avoiding this would be too powerful and a waste of time."

Could be wrong, but that's what I'm seeing.

I'm not around since as much as you, so I could be wrong bro.

[Riot]

Chattering Rings don't stack.... Someone tried it WAY back in the day, and it didn't work. Dev's acknowledged that "same source" bonuses will not stack.

[Borror0]

Chattering Rings don't stack.... Someone tried it WAY back in the day, and it didn't work. Dev's acknowledged that "same source" bonuses will not stack.

That's what I thought too.