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transtemporal
10-01-2007, 09:15 PM
Howdy folks,

What this guide is and who its for
This guide is all about defending your toon from the damage caused by melee and ranged weapons intersecting with your toons jiggly bits. It's primarily a guide for the n00bish, but even you wizened twinkie types might learn something, so settle into your zimmer frame and read on... :) Its basically intended as an overview of the "statable" defence options available to your character, in order of their usefulness.

What this guide is not
Its not a discussion of defence recommendations for a particular class, level or role. Its not a discussion of defensive tactics & techniques such as jumping, diplomacy, tumbling, kiting, "offense as defense" or controlling the battlefield. (Although as others have rightly pointed out these are just as essential to your defensive effort, so I'll cover them in a later update). Its not a discussion of defenses against spells. These work in a different way to physical combat and will be covered in a separate section (or possibly a different guide);

Two disclaimers:

I use the words 'mob' and 'monster', 'toon' and 'character' respectfully, interchangeably;
I mix british and american spellings and colloquialisms with uninhibited and wild abandon. I also occasionally use made up words like "desirableness" and "statable". So sue me already, old bean. ;)

Below is the list of Melee & Ranged Statable Defence Basics (M&RSDB) as defined by transtemporal, in order of desirableness.

Melee & Ranged Statable Defence Basics (M&RSDB)
=============================

Miss chance; AKA blur, displacement
Fortification item
Armour Class (AC)
Damage Reduction (DR)
Hit Points (HP) + HP buffs



Miss chance. % chance they miss before they even roll to hit. Get it from arcane spells blur (2nd), displacement (3rd) (can also get it from glitterdust, invisibility & shadow walk). Great because its not opposed by the mobs attack roll so even works with mobs who have 40+ attack. Ha! Stoopid monster!
Fortification item. % chance a confirmed critical/sneak attack becomes a normal hit instead. Comes in 25%, 75% and 100% flavours. Awesome for everybody; wiz, tank, bard and rogue alike. Prevents those situations when you're up one moment and down the next. (BTW, the reason why fort is before AC is that not all roles absolutely need AC, but everyone can benefit from fort).
Armour Class (AC). d20 + attack vs AC. Get it from dex, armor, shields, spells, enhancements, feats etc. Lots has been written about this so won't reiterate.
Damage Reduction (DR). Reduces the amount of physical damage taken from a hit. Get it from class abilities, items, spells. Either looks like (number)/(material) or (number)/-; e.g. 10/adamantine or 5/-. The former means "reduce the damage taken by x amount, unless the weapon is made of y material", the later means "reduce the damage taken by this amount no matter what material the weapon is made from". Note: DR doesn't reduce damage from spells, those are called Resistances (similar concept, but for spells and can't be trumped by a material, not to be confused with resistance bonuses). There is quite a bit written about DR on the forums; e.g. what it is and what stacks with what so I won't reiterate.
Hit Points (HP) + HP buffs. Last but not least line of defence, ideally shouldn't be your only line of defence. Your normal HP score comes from your class, feats, enhancements, items and con score, HP buffs come from spells and items. There are basically three types of HP buffs: buffs that add directly to your normal HP score (con buffs like bears endurance & brb rage ability), temporary HP buffs that appear in brackets after your normal HP score (Aid, Greater heroism, False Life) and so-called "ablative" HP buffs (from spells) that appear in the top right of the screen (Stoneskin, Protection from Energy). Damage is taken from ablative HP buffs first, then temporary HP buffs, then normal HP. Theres also lots written about HP, what stacks with what and where from so won't reiterate.


Stoneskin (4th lvl arcane spell) deserves a special mention because it gives an ablative DR (10/adamantine) buff (10 per level, max 150). So dmg from a non-adamantine weapon or natural attack is reduced by 10 with the remainder being deducted from the wearers HP. Each hit also reduces the ablative DR. Dmg from a non-adamantine weapon reduces the DR by 1-9 if the dmg is less than 10 or 10 if the dmg is equal to or greater than 10. Dmg from an adamantine weapon reduces the DR by the full amount. Stoneskin lasts for 1 min per level (or 2 w Extend feat) or when the ablative DR are used up, whichever comes first.
For example; if you have a 120 DR Stoneskin, 23 dmg from a non-adamantine weapon reduces the stoneskin by 10, leaving 110 DR left with 13 HP dmg taken by the wearer. If the weapon had been adamantine instead, the DR is bypassed and our stoneskin would have been reduced by the full 23, leaving 97 DR with 23 HP dmg taken by the wearer.

Summary:
These are the basic statable defence options available to your toon. While having high scores in all of them would be great, its not always practical (or even desirable) for all builds in the party. The key is: know thy build, thy neighbours, thy level and thy content and ye shall know what statable defenses best fit your toon. Happy defencing!

Cheers,
transtemporal

edit: removed "diplomacy skill" and "after the fact" defenses for the moment. They're kind of individual tactics that one can employ. Still cool though, and will add back in for defensive tactics.

Scalion
10-02-2007, 05:55 AM
**Disclaimer** Since I made this post, others have noted that defence is a spelling sometimes used in the UK and Canada so I apologize if this is the reason it is spelled this way in the post. Either way most DDO players are american so I have decided not to completely retract this post but rather add this disclaimer.

My intent is not to offend, but rather to help. This post has some useful information and I want it to be read.

Defense is spelled incorrectly in your post and I think people will not take your post seriously with this spelling mistake. I will happily edit this reply once the spelling mistake is correct.

So that's Defense, not defence, just to clarify.

Also I would like to mention that positioning can be just as important as any of these above posts. Sometimes you stand in the doorway to block enemies from getting at mobs, sometimes I stand to the side of the doorway where the caster mobs can't see me and hit me with their lightning bolts. Rarely is it a good idea to rush into the middle of a room and get surrounded while trying to take down your enemies.

apollojuly
10-02-2007, 07:16 AM
Hope you submit it to the user-written game guide contest.

Don't forget location, similar to what Scalion was mentioning. A caster in mid-jump, a squishy behind a tank, or anyone behind the right terrain has some good defense.

MistressMayhem
10-02-2007, 09:00 AM
Very helpful info in this post. Thank you for suggesting it to me. Guess I better continue upping my diplomacy.

ErgonomicCat
10-02-2007, 09:28 AM
My intent is not to offend, but rather to help. This post has some useful information and I want it to be read.

Defense is spelled incorrectly in your post and I think people will not take your post seriously with this spelling mistake. I will happily edit this reply once the spelling mistake is correct.

So that's Defense, not defence, just to clarify.



Just guessing, but:

deĀ·fence (dĭ-fěns') Pronunciation Key
n. & v. Chiefly British

Rentz
10-02-2007, 09:37 AM
My intent is not to offend, but rather to help. This post has some useful information and I want it to be read.

Defense is spelled incorrectly in your post and I think people will not take your post seriously with this spelling mistake. I will happily edit this reply once the spelling mistake is correct.

So that's Defense, not defence, just to clarify.


actually, you can spell it either way. 'defence' is the British/Canadian version. like Colour, licence, etc.

here's a website with more examples::
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/jones/differences.htm

to the OP: i'd recommend adding Stoneskin to the DR section. it's DR 10/adamantine. 4th level spell, blocks 10 points for 1 minute per caster level.

edit: heh, ergonomicCat beat me to it

transtemporal
10-02-2007, 04:15 PM
Also I would like to mention that positioning can be just as important as any of these above posts. Sometimes you stand in the doorway to block enemies from getting at mobs, sometimes I stand to the side of the doorway where the caster mobs can't see me and hit me with their lightning bolts. Rarely is it a good idea to rush into the middle of a room and get surrounded while trying to take down your enemies.

This is an excellent suggestion scalion but what I'm trying to cover (to begin with) is "statable" layers of defenses that achieve different effects, rather than defensive tactics (although I guess I've contradicted that by including block). While tactics are as (if not more) important than statable defences, they require more experience and skill to execute. Statable defenses merely require a player to be aware of them and have the item, skill or spell on hand to use. I'll add a defensive tactics section at some stage in the near future. :)


Hope you submit it to the user-written game guide contest.

I didn't realise there was one AJ. It was just a continuation of MistressMayhem's thread. Hasn't that contest ended?


actually, you can spell it either way. 'defence' is the British/Canadian version. like Colour, licence, etc.

Thanks for pointing that out rentz/ErgonomicCat. I spell it both ways, we're schizophrenic down under. Can't decide whether we're American, British or something in between. Oddly enough, I wouldn't spell "defensive" - "defencive". :)


to the OP: i'd recommend adding Stoneskin to the DR section. it's DR 10/adamantine. 4th level spell, blocks 10 points for 1 minute per caster level.

Good suggestion Rentz. It is the premier DR / ablative HP spell. I'll add it as an example.

transtemporal
10-02-2007, 10:31 PM
I kinda forgot two skills that might be useful, but I don't know what the actual game effects are: jump and tumble (and yes, I know they help you avoid blows, I just don't know how they work or what the stats are; e.g. does it work like a miss chance? AC? Ablative HP? Is it +4? +20%?).

LeLoric
10-02-2007, 11:12 PM
Another good defensive item is a bodyfeeder item with a high crit range by constantly putting up 15 temp hp its almost like having dr 15

Borror0
10-02-2007, 11:27 PM
Another good defensive item is a bodyfeeder item with a high crit range by constantly putting up 15 temp hp its almost like having dr 15

I've got a +2 Boddyfeeder Scimitar of Parrying, trust me... it's not good.

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-03-2007, 02:07 PM
Stoneskin (4th lvl arcane spell) deserves a special mention because it gives both DR (10/adamantiine) AND an ablative HP buff (10 HP per level, max 150). For example; if you have Stoneskin on (for 120 hp say), a hit worth 23 dmg from a non-adamantine weapon reduces the stoneskin by 13 to 107 (23 - 10 for DR = 13). Only lasts 6 secs per level (or 12 w Extend feat) but still a winner when the dangerous stuff starts flying.


Good post, lots of useful advice.

However, I think my understanding of stoneskin differs from yours. I think if you have e.g. a 12th lvl stoneskin on (120hp) then it will take 10HP off each hit. So, in your example if you are hit for 23 base damage (by anything physical other than adamantine) then the stoneskin will subtract 10 off this to give a real damage of 13 and your stoneskin will be left with 110 on it.

Willing to stand corrected though,

Garth

Borror0
10-03-2007, 02:44 PM
I think if you have e.g. a 12th lvl stoneskin on (120hp) then it will take 10HP off each hit. So, in your example if you are hit for 23 base damage (by anything physical other than adamantine) then the stoneskin will subtract 10 off this to give a real damage of 13 and your stoneskin will be left with 110 on it.

If you're attacked for 23 dmg, Stoneskin protects you from the 10 first and they are removed from your total. So, a 120 Stoneskin means DR 10/Addy for 12 attacks.

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-03-2007, 03:07 PM
If you're attacked for 23 dmg, Stoneskin protects you from the 10 first and they are removed from your total. So, a 120 Stoneskin means DR 10/Addy for 12 attacks.

I still wouldn't phrase it like that personally - since it can protect for more than 12 attacks at DR/10 :) e.g. it can still protect at 'DR/10' for 24 attacks so long as each attack is only 5 base dmg :)

Sorry - being a pedant.

Garth

transtemporal
10-03-2007, 04:14 PM
However, I think my understanding of stoneskin differs from yours. I think if you have e.g. a 12th lvl stoneskin on (120hp) then it will take 10HP off each hit. So, in your example if you are hit for 23 base damage (by anything physical other than adamantine) then the stoneskin will subtract 10 off this to give a real damage of 13 and your stoneskin will be left with 110 on it.


Yes, thats what I meant, maybe I wasn't clear. My numbers are right though I think? 120 - (23-10) = 107 (sorry for a maths formula mangling). I've changed the description, hopefully its a little clearer.

Alphalegacy
10-03-2007, 10:14 PM
You forgot one of the famous quote: Offense may be the best defense

Kill the monsers before they can hurt you is good defense :D

Another "defense" will be the positioning of your characters against the monsters. If you are moving your characters to the flank or the back of the monsters often, you are not going to get hit much. But this is a skill to be trained and acquired.

Rentz
10-03-2007, 10:25 PM
Stoneskin lasts for 6 secs per level (or 12 w Extend feat)Cheers,


oops -
stoneskin lasts 1 minute per level, 2 minutes extended.

hence, it's still very useful in scroll format (7 minutes, 70 points of DR 10/adamantine)

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 12:14 AM
oops -
stoneskin lasts 1 minute per level, 2 minutes extended.

hence, it's still very useful in scroll format (7 minutes, 70 points of DR 10/adamantine)

Thanks dude, I'll change it (duh transtemporal, I was thinking of haste). :)

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 12:21 AM
You forgot one of the famous quote: Offense may be the best defense

Kill the monsers before they can hurt you is good defense :D

Another "defense" will be the positioning of your characters against the monsters. If you are moving your characters to the flank or the back of the monsters often, you are not going to get hit much. But this is a skill to be trained and acquired.

Completely agree. I'm definitely going to include "offense as defense" in the tactics section. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

Lots of people get down on DPS toons as clerical mana-hogs and they are, but they're also incredibly efficient at taking things down fast. The longer a mob is up, the more spells and horrible cr*p its spewing at the party.

Griphon
10-07-2007, 12:48 PM
Stoneskin (4th lvl arcane spell) deserves a special mention because it gives both DR (10/adamantiine) AND an ablative HP buff (10 HP per level, max 150), so dmg from a non-adamantine weapon is reduced by 10, then the remainder deducted from the ablative HP granted by the spell. Worth noting that non-adamantine weapon dmg equal to or less than 10 won't hurt you. Lasts for 1 min per level (or 2 w Extend feat) or when the ablative HP are used up (whichever comes first), but still a winner when the dangerous stuff starts flying.
For example; if you have a 120 HP Stoneskin on, 23 dmg from a non-adamantine weapon reduces the stoneskin by 13, leaving 107 HP left (120 - (23 - 10) = 107). If the weapon had been adamantine instead, the DR is bypassed and our stoneskin would have been reduced by the full 23, leaving 97.

I think, though I might be wrong, that you have the mechanics for this spell wrong.
My understanding was it work this way:
Character gets a DR10/Adamant until the point pool is reduced to zero... Each hit that the character takes damage from that does come from an Adamant reduces the DR point pool by 10 or the amount less then 10 until the pool is reduced to zero. The remaining damage after the subtracted DR10 comes off the player, not the spell pool.

So it is really a DR Point Pool instead of a HP Pool....
Using the same example: You have a 120 point DR Pool and are struck by for 23 points of damage from a non-Adamant weapon. Your DR Pool drops to 110, and the character takes 13 points of damage.

Some people might ask how you see numbers like 32 DR remaining then.. Thats because sometimes they just don't hit you for 10pts of damage. Say they hit you for 8 with a Non Adamant wepaon? Your DR goes down by 8 and the character takes no damage.

Jaysensen
10-07-2007, 02:23 PM
Saving Throws? Spell Immunities? SR?

You may want to explain what types of effects get what saves etc. How Spell saves are different from trap saves etc.

transtemporal
10-07-2007, 03:49 PM
Saving Throws? Spell Immunities? SR?

You may want to explain what types of effects get what saves etc. How Spell saves are different from trap saves etc.

Yup, totally. This was only for physical combat to begin with. I'll move onto spells and defensive tactics in a later post.

Not sure if I understand your point about saves. A reflex save against fireball or trap is still a reflex save. Aa survey of the common effects that toons get smacked with how you might defend against them (SR, Spell immunities etc) might be useful though.

transtemporal
10-07-2007, 03:57 PM
So it is really a DR Point Pool instead of a HP Pool....
Using the same example: You have a 120 point DR Pool and are struck by for 23 points of damage from a non-Adamant weapon. Your DR Pool drops to 110, and the character takes 13 points of damage.

D'oh! You're right Griphon. For some reason, I'd convinced myself it was the same as a spell in my PnP game. :o

steelblade
10-08-2007, 08:36 AM
:d :d :d