Drow turning cleric build. Looking for feedback.

[redoubt]

Notes:
+2 cha tome indicates favor tome, can be moved.
+3 con tome show min +3 con item to increase hp and fort save. Probably +5 once build, but not really a tome.
wise bandana and char ring = +6 item or +1 tome and +5 item. Wanted to see approximate final stats.

Order of feats not yet determined. Just picked the 5 I wanted to start with.

Second level of cleric smiting was in hopes of it affecting the divine light turning ability. Does anyone know if they work together?

Skills in haggle and UMD as an initial thought.

Thanks for looking. :)



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Paladin \ 12 Cleric)
Hit Points: 164
Spell Points: 907
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 11
Will: 21

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 11 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 17 22
Charisma 18 22

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 13
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 13

Notable Equipment
Helm: Wise Bandanna
Ring: Charismatic Ring

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 2 (Cleric)

Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Turning

Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS

Level 5 (Cleric)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning

Level 7 (Paladin)

Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell

Level 10 (Cleric)

Level 11 (Cleric)

Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness

Level 13 (Cleric)

Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning II



Here is the human variant: (note: I did not put in the extra boost i did above. I.e. Con with a +3 item is still 14 as it is shown above.)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Paladin \ 12 Cleric)
Hit Points: 136
Spell Points: 939
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 10
Will: 22

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 11 11
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 17 24
Charisma 18 22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 12
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12

Notable Equipment
Helm: Wise Hat
Ring: Charismatic Ring

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Improved Turning

Level 2 (Cleric)

Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 4 (Cleric)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning

Level 7 (Cleric)

Level 8 (Cleric)

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness

Level 10 (Cleric)

Level 11 (Cleric)

Level 12 (Cleric)

Level 13 (Cleric)

Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Light III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning II

[smyter]

on my high cha cleric, I have tried Divine Light and Divine Healing... but 90% of the time they go to DV's. Having 18 (21 after patch) turns really juices up your group mates. I like the build tho. I like the thought of the paladin levels, but you will miss out on Mass Cure Serious.. which is like Divine Light in a way.

[redoubt]

Interesting point. I had not been considering the mass heal spells for damage yet. This build would still have cure mass moderate for 2d8+14 (missing an extra 1d8, by not being mass serious.) I'm going to look around a bit as I cannot remember if empower healing affects these when used on undead. I guess the mass cures would be stupid efficient since I'm healing my friends and killing undead at the same time. Definate consideration.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the turn enhancements. 18-20 DVs of high level is a lot of spell points. I may move the second level of cleric smiting to either DV2 or DH2. For my initial run at this guy, I definately want to try all 3 divine lights. Pull a room full of undead around me and smack away with 14d6 light damage. The DC for this character would be: 10+12(cleric levels)+8(cha bonus)=30. I think this should hit a good number of undead for full damage. If not, its still 7d6.

Also, while it would be nice to watch high level undead explode, I realize that usually won't happen. In high level stuff, the goal is to get them to cower or run. Then, as long as I don't approach the turned undead, my teammates can hack on them without taking damage themselves.

[ErgonomicCat]

Are the 2 paladin levels worth it, though?

You're getting divine grace (very nice - +6 to all saves), and lay on hands (also nice - 72 hp, no need for sp).

But you're losing 7th level spells, and two levels of SP. That's 135 sp base lost, plus 12 from your Wis.

So you're losing 147 sp (about double the SP saved by Lay on Hands, although that does affect WF), level 7 spells, a 4th level readied spell, and a 6th level readied spell.

Is +6 to saves worth that?

7th levels spells you'd take - Cure Serious, Mass (you have cure moderate), Greater Restore, and Rez.

Maybe. If you aren't going to have high save DCs, and you manage your spell points (and have Rez scrolls, or people don't mind not having it), you're gonna be much more survivable....

[redoubt]

Are the 2 paladin levels worth it, though?

You're getting divine grace (very nice - +6 to all saves), and lay on hands (also nice - 72 hp, no need for sp).
with +6 to cha, the save boost become +9.
But you're losing 7th level spells, and two levels of SP. That's 135 sp base lost, plus 12 from your Wis.
Don't paladins get spell points or is that already in your calculations? I have not done the math on spell points with or without the paladin levels.
So you're losing 147 sp (about double the SP saved by Lay on Hands, although that does affect WF), level 7 spells, a 4th level readied spell, and a 6th level readied spell.
What about raise dead? I've not played a cleric since level 14 came out and don't know how much better the higher rez is.
Is +6 to saves worth that?
+9 to saves, and I'm not sure. Part of this discussion.
7th levels spells you'd take - Cure Serious, Mass (you have cure moderate), Greater Restore, and Rez.
Again, how much of an impact are these spells?
Maybe. If you aren't going to have high save DCs, and you manage your spell points (and have Rez scrolls, or people don't mind not having it), you're gonna be much more survivable....

Thanks for the comments, and thanks in advance for my new questions.

To recap, I'm hoping for a cleric with very good healing capacity and strong offense against undead. I know his spell DC will not come close to that of my sorc, so I'm not going to try to max it. The plan is to do direct damage IF I'm doing damage at all. Does this make since or am I gimping myself going this route?

Another part of the trade off in the Pali levels is -2 cleric levels for turning and a couple high level cleric enhancements (improved turn4 I think was one of them.) Seems like +9 to saves would be very nice, but still looking for feedback on it.

Thanks.

[moops]

7th level spell Ressurection allows one to come back with half HPs, very handy in certain areas of the game, and also with tanks who have over 300 hit points--depending on whether you use empower healing or not. With empower healing I can heal 399 on a HP heavy tank.

There are so many threads on this, but I will say it again, the 7th level spells, and maybe even just the one really changed the game for me and made it more fun to cleric. But, Destruction just rocks, being able to insta kill from a distance is sweet. Having 2 insta kill spells is just more fun. Symbol of stunning is also real nice.

Im not sure how high you feel your saves need to be. For instance most clerics will only fail a Will save when they roll a 1 anyway. . .Clerics also can take care of their own poisons/diseases or wear items. The insta kill spells can hurt, but, there are ways to play around this if no one else in your group can res. Reflex is the one that gets me, and only in a couple areas of the game, and both have ways to work around it anyway.

[smyter]

On my my 14 cleric, his CHA is 32 and his WIS is only 24. The high CHA allows me to have so many turns as well as have a high UMD. One of the downsides is offensive spell DC. This gives me -3 dc compared to most clerics that have a 30 WIS. It doesn't seem like much, but I do notice my destruction/banishment not hitting as often as other clerics in the group. That is why I started up a high WIS caster cleric as another alt. He is up to lvl 9, and I must say.. so far I enjoyed the CHA cleric a bit more. 32 CHA = turning (cowering) all the turnable undead. Making some undead immune to turning just seems wrong. The other thing is if you use your divine healing, warn the reast of your group. Even after this warning 10% of the time, the person regenning gets wanded up by another cleric/bard/rogue/sorc.

[redoubt]

7th level spell Ressurection allows one to come back with half HPs, very handy in certain areas of the game, and also with tanks who have over 300 hit points--depending on whether you use empower healing or not. With empower healing I can heal 399 on a HP heavy tank.
Does that mean empower heal adds to your resurection spell?
There are so many threads on this, but I will say it again, the 7th level spells, and maybe even just the one really changed the game for me and made it more fun to cleric. But, Destruction just rocks, being able to insta kill from a distance is sweet. Having 2 insta kill spells is just more fun. Symbol of stunning is also real nice.
I've though about this some, but destruction alone is not enough to make me really want level 7 spells. I can go insta-kill on my sorc when I get that urge.
Im not sure how high you feel your saves need to be. For instance most clerics will only fail a Will save when they roll a 1 anyway. . .Clerics also can take care of their own poisons/diseases or wear items. The insta kill spells can hurt, but, there are ways to play around this if no one else in your group can res. Reflex is the one that gets me, and only in a couple areas of the game, and both have ways to work around it anyway.
Kinda like constitution. I originally rolled this guy as a human with 18cha&wis. Only 8 on str, con, dex, int. I've had several people tell me I should up the CON. I said I could heal myself, so why do I need con? The answer was just do it basically.

So I guess the question here becomes, do I need saves or con? Or just heal myself of whatever happens? (I've had a L7, L10, L4 cleric, so I've never played one in the high end stuff.)


(comment inline with quote.)

[redoubt]

Okay, did a bit of number crunching on the turning aspect.

Max HD monster is constant. 1d20 +CHA mod. 14 cleric or 12cleric/2Pali will be the same here.

HD actually turned will vary. Formula:
2d6 + cleric levels + sacred + CHA bonus + feat + enhancements

12cleric/2pali
12 cleric levels
2 sacred
9 cha
1 feat
2 enhance
-----
26 + 2d6 (low: 28, high: 38, ave: 33)

14 cleric
14 cleric
2 sacred
9 cha
1 feat
3 enhance (acces to next level of enhancement.)
-----
29 + 2d6. (low: 31, high: 41, ave 36)

Now, that I have the numbers.... what the heck do they mean in DDO. Anyone have a clue as to the approx HD the undead in the game have? (Maybe a link to this data?)

Thanks.

[PurdueDave]

In DDO it's kind of a mystery.

In general terms...
Things with no particular special abilities (like zombies) have more HD per CR.
Things with many (like spectres) have less HD per CR.

[moops]

(comment inline with quote.)

Empower healing does not affect ressurection, but if you play with alot of HP heavy tanks, and have empower healing, you may choose to just use Raise Dead instead, and throw one Heal or so on them. If you do not have Ressurection or empower heal, and play with HP heavy tanks, you will probably have to heal them at least twice after raising them. I play with some 500+pt tanks so Ressurection helps me save SP in the long run, and empower heal saves me time. Of course if you have enough money you can just buy the Ressurection scrolls. . .even though I have cash, I just can't bring myself to do that yet.

[redoubt]

Agreed. I would prefer not to use scrolls and wand if I can cast it myself.

I do plan on having empowered healing and all 4 heal enhancements and whatever items I can find to go with it. So the heals should be pretty good.

Now, the two things I'm still trying to decide on (for now anyway) are the race/starting stat combo and the 12/2 split vs pure cleric.

**Human starts with less dex and int. No real offset for the dex, but humans get an extra skill point per level, so that part is equal. Then I could get the Human versitility stat enhancements.

Thanks for the discussion so far. :)

[smyter]

Generally, Human is the best race for a cleric because you get +1 wis and an extra feat. After that Drow and Dwarf are even... drow gets an auto 32 pt build with +2 to cha (an extra turn), Dwarf has better CON for hp and concentration.. and SP enahncements if you take them. With a turning build, I would lean towards drow.

[PurdueDave]

Now, the two things I'm still trying to decide on (for now anyway) are the race/starting stat combo and the 12/2 split vs pure cleric.


With the given stats, I'd go CLR 14. With a poor melee character I don't think the 2 levels of PAL give good bang for the buck.

[redoubt]

As the conversation develops, human does look more like the way go. And probably pure cleric.

If I did that saves would be about: (All will saves assume 30 wis total)

Fort: 11
Reflex: 6
Will: 19

This is without an item, so add +1 luck and +4 resist to get:
Fort: 16
Reflex: 11
Will: 24

With 2 levels of pali: (+cha boost, assumes 28 cha)
Fort: 14 +9 = 23
Reflex: 7 +9 = 16
Will: 19 +9 = 28

Add +1 luck and +4 saves:
Fort: 28
Reflex: 21
Will: 33

What do you all think about the saves?

[PurdueDave]

IMX, saves on a cleric are almost always sufficient without special attention. Only reflex is weak. Aggro management is pretty easy with a cleric anyway.

[Nestorious]

In regards to turning...

The HD is a mystery still as stated above, the CR actually isnt even a way to do the calc's on this. Basically look at any undead and take their raw HD d8/d10/whatever... Run a quest where you can actually see the amount of HP the dang thing had and then look at the cr. THEY WONT MATCH. It's one of the issues as a cleric that has been looked into and then simply discarded by the masses. The HP dont match the expected HD of the specific mobs. In actuality, the HD turns out to be right around x2 as to what it should be.

This means if you are looking to do some turning, take ur totals and divide them in half (on average, this is not a fixed number) and this is about the cr lvl you will be turning at. I know thats not good news, but sometimes the truth hurts

:(

[Nestorious]

As to the builds,

I have run a number of clerics (ask anyone who knows me) and have been pretty happy with their builds but always lookin to do some twinking. Right now I am back on the bandwagon of re-rolls and am quite happy with a Human pure class, he's started turning in Delera's at 6th lvl and loving every minute of it.