Any real reason to go past level 6?

[Aeneas]

Building a sneaky ranger multi build and i'm wondering if there's any really good reason to go past ranger level 6. The build will also have 2 rogue levels so evasion is not a good reason.

[rpasell]

Building a sneaky ranger multi build and i'm wondering if there's any really good reason to go past ranger level 6. The build will also have 2 rogue levels so evasion is not a good reason.

Barkskin at 8 off the top of my head there are plenty of other reasons but that strikes me as most obvious.

[Aeneas]

Would rather rely on a +3 bark pot than waste levels just for the spell i think. they're cheap and last 6 minutes.

[Blazer]

Since we have no idea what the goals of your build are, it's tough to answer appropriately. I would say it's very worth going past level 6 ranger. Level 11 gives you Resist 30 spells, an extra favored enemy, GTWF, a 3rd arrow for Many Shot....I could go on and on and on and on about what you can get past lvl 6 ranger.

[MeNorel]

To continue IPS coupled with Many Shot +3, equals mob ownage with the right bows and arrows. Cure Mod spell for those quick heal needs Barkskin +5, FoM is nice at 12 but I have done ok with out it till the cap is raised. Summon Nautures Alley III and IV is nice when soloing, gets pretty creepy out there in deep woods all alone.:p

[Aeneas]

I have a greater resist cloak or ring for every element. And many shot arrows # is dependent upon BAB not ranger level IIRC.

And precision is a weapon mod now.

[Blazer]

Yes, manyshot is based off of BAB not ranger level. But again, without knowing more of your character, who's to say you're not taking levels of sorc or wizzy, thus keeping your BAB below 11? I guess you're burning a feat on GTWF when you hit that +11 BAB also?

Greater resist gear is nice, but being able to help the party by casting it from your SP pool on all the other members is an added benefit. Plus it means you don't need to swap some other piece of gear out to use the greater resist gear.

Precision as a weapon mod currently is only Precise Shot, IIRC, not Improved Precise Shot.

[Aeneas]

My main goal here is really stealth and one good hard smack when i need to deliver it. I am completely undecided about what direction i am going for my 3rd class (if there is one at all). Hence my search for a good reason to take more than 6 ranger levels. Mainly i want something different than what i generally play which is min/maxed rogues and a bard that can all hold their own in head to head combat. I know the game doesn't cater to stealth play for the most part, but you'd be surprised what you can get through without killing or with killing very very little. (waterworks part 1 and 2 for instance.)

[Blazer]

I was just going to say that - before you expanded upon the above post - it sounds like you want to make a rogue. I mean, if you're looking for "high stealth" and then delivering "one good, hard smack" - a 7d6 rogue sneak attack comes to mind immediately as fitting those needs. I could see you taking a couple of ranger levels to get wand usage, TWF, and a FE, but really I can't get past the idea that "one good, hard smack" just screams huge sneak attack dice.

[JelloMold]

Again, it depends on your motivation/playstyle. It sounds like you've got yourself covered. Most of the benefits I can think don't sound like they are needed by you ,but can help the party. You can be quite valuable when throwing out quality resists, barkskin, freedom of movement, and quick heals.

[MeNorel]

Ok so far we have a what if on lvl 6 ranger and two levels of rouge. To offer suggestions some decisions need to be made and provided on what your looking to do, with 3 classes there's not going to be much of any BIG punch you are going to be able to deliver at any point with current level cap and probably will be grossly behind others with splash lvl's and the rest almost pure.

It sounds like an intresting and fun character to play, but sounds like your asking for the future to be predicted and the maybe the subject of the post needed to be Help me build a sneaky lil bastard. :) But this would probably be semaraly deleted.

[Jaysensen]

Well, Manyshot isnt a good reason for 6 Ranger levels.

The reason Rangers are a great class in no particular order:
1) built in Evasion on a full BAB class
2) 30 point resists
3) free TWF feats
4) free ranged feats
5) Barkskin
6) FEs
7) lots of skillpoints
8) that cool bow icon which increases your LFG time.

Levels 3-6 give you very little other than Manyshot. Go F9/P3/Ro2. Or F10/Ra2/Ro2

[rpasell]

8) that cool bow icon which increases your LFG time.


QFT

[Vengenance]

Well, Manyshot isnt a good reason for 6 Ranger levels.

The reason Rangers are a great class in no particular order:
1) built in Evasion on a full BAB class
2) 30 point resists
3) free TWF feats
4) free ranged feats
5) Barkskin
6) FEs
7) lots of skillpoints
8) that cool bow icon which increases your LFG time.-->Priceless:D

Levels 3-6 give you very little other than Manyshot. Go F9/P3/Ro2. Or F10/Ra2/Ro2

Corrected that.

[Aeneas]

Bow strength and free twf was the motivation behind the ranger levels.. I have 3 rogues already. I don't know how beneficial another favored enemy and manyshot would be. Would they be better than 3 combat feats (technically one feat because 1 and 2 would be itwf and gtwf), medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, and tower shield prof? With 14 int am i going to starve this build out of hide, move silently, and umd - or can i avoid this with careful planning of my 2nd rogue level (he's currently 1 rog/2 ranger)?

[hellfyreii]

1) why would u use medium or heavy armor would kill off evasion?
2) every 5 lvls of ranger add another favored enemy and 2 damage to the favored enemies
3) if your looking to max your dex then 9 lvls of either rogue or ranger to get the 3rd enhancement
4) manyshot can rip thru a couple enemies with imp precise shot before you engage in melee, downside is you might have to much aggro
5) mod 5 is mainly undead you be able to dish out more damage with fav enemy undead where sneak attack wont do diddly squat

[Aeneas]

1) why would u use medium or heavy armor would kill off evasion?
2) every 5 lvls of ranger add another favored enemy and 2 damage to the favored enemies
3) if your looking to max your dex then 9 lvls of either rogue or ranger to get the 3rd enhancement
4) manyshot can rip thru a couple enemies with imp precise shot before you engage in melee, downside is you might have to much aggro
5) mod 5 is mainly undead you be able to dish out more damage with fav enemy undead where sneak attack wont do diddly squat

See now there is some ideas i can get behind. Particularly number 5. Evasion isn't the end all be all, and if i can scoop some extra AC for a melee only fight, i'll drop evasion for a second. Chances are though, i'll end up taking 6 rogue/6 ranger/and 2 paladin.

All 3 halfling dragonmarks, weapon focus slash, imp crit slash for feats.

I know it's a goofy build, but that's the idea - i don't want something perfect, just something a bit different. I figure by the time he's capped, i'll be tired of playing the super easy mod 5 content and want a challenge by running this gimp through.

[D'rin]

With the silver bow, wounding, or greater bane bow you get amazing amounts of damage with many shot and improved precise shot. Sneak to a good position and let the numbers fly. My 14th lvl ranger was the one designated to take out the beholders in invaders when it was new. With his favored as aberations and the silver bow he would critical on a 17-20 and do 80+points of base damage, holy and whatever elemental/bane arrows I had.

[tc12]

Since you already play other rogues and are looking for something different, ask yourself instead "any reason to go past rogue 1?" Really if you're looking to try out Ranger but still keep rogue skills, take rogue at first and then not again. With INT 14 rangers get enough skill points to cross-class Search and Disable to full ranks.

I'm sure you know Open doesn't need to be fully maxed, and as a Ranger you can let Spot lag a bit even though it's a ranger class skill too, as the additional +10 from Wild Instincts (3rd level ranger spell) can make ranger/rogues the best spotters in the game even without maxed ranks.

So really, if you're looking to try out a diff class a bit while still being fully stealthy and a solid trapbuster, go almost fully ranger. If you feel the need, 12/2 with the 14th level being rogue for any needed skill point catch-up at most, otherwise rogue1/rangerX all the way thru. At next cap, 15/1 would mean +8 to 4 different favored enemies.

Having a ranger13/rogue1 and a Rogue11/melee-splash myself, both are fun. Both spot/find/disable traps just fine. Both sneak fine. What I miss with my Ranger is the massive sneak damage. And what I miss with my rogue is the favored damages and lack of assisting with party buffs. (Honestly, rarely the ranged capabilities.)

TC

[Meriadeuc]

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I don't know how beneficial another favored enemy and manyshot would be. Would they be better than 3 combat feats (technically one feat because 1 and 2 would be itwf and gtwf), medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, and tower shield prof?


Going from 2 to 3 favored enemies may not seem all that significant to you, but you need to keep in mind that the real impact of favored enemies comes in the long-run. Because each time you add a favored enemy you also increase the damage you do on all your favored enemies, the benefits are multiplicative (ie more damage multiplied by more things it applies to). So, the benefit you get when going from 3 to 4 favored enemies is greater than what you get when going from 2 to 3, and the benefit when going from 4 to 5 is greater still.

[QuantumFX]

Bow strength and free twf was the motivation behind the ranger levels.. I have 3 rogues already.

Ranger is an odd class. You should dip for 2 levels or go for 11+ levels and dip other classes. Levels 3-10 don't hand out abilities that blend well with other classes. You cannot dismiss the ability to self buff energy resists and barkskins. Items take slots that could be used for other purposes and barkskin pots are nowhere near as effective as barkskin spells. (Lemme ask you this: Did you avoid taking haste on your bard because you can get it from a potion?)


I don't know how beneficial another favored enemy and manyshot would be.

Favored enemy: A level 10 ranger has a static, pre crit damage enhancement of +6 for 3 types of foes in the game. It's not dependant on flanking nor range and works with all their weapons. On a non-crit it's equal to the average 2d6 sneak attack damage and on a 2x crit (like say - a rapier) it's equal to the average damage for a 4d6 sneak attack.


Would they be better than 3 combat feats (technically one feat because 1 and 2 would be itwf and gtwf), medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, and tower shield prof?

It looks like you're comparing 6 fighter levels to an additional 6 ranger levels.
Fighter levels 1-6 vs. Ranger levels 7-12

- Gain Medium/Heavy/Tower shield profs. Yes, you get them but good luck using them. Can't evade in medium and heavy armor and you need a high dex to max out light armor which is hampered by tower shields.

- 4 Miscellaneous feats vs. Greater 2WF and Precise/Imp Precise Shot. (To mimic the ranger feats you will need to have a non-enhanced/non-enchanted 19 DEX and pick up point blank shot.)

- +12 HP, +2 Fort save, -1 Reflex save

- Lose the ability to make animals your pets, lose ability to hand out 30 pt resists and lose ability to have 2 pt higher AC due to barkskin.

- Lose +2 pre crit damage to first 2 favored enemies, lose ability to do +6 pre crit damage to third favored enemy.

- Gain 2nd rank fighter enhancements (STR, toughness, Action boosts) lose 3rd rank and above ranger enhancements. (Bad for a skill based character.)


With 14 int am i going to starve this build out of hide, move silently, and umd - or can i avoid this with careful planning of my 2nd rogue level (he's currently 1 rog/2 ranger)?

Yes! Carefully planning in a 2nd and/or 3rd level of rogue is a great way of keeping all the rogue skills up and keep all the good ranger abilities up. In fact at lvl 17 rangers are due to get the ultimate sneak feat - Hide in Plain sight. (This depends on whether Turbine has the balls to do stealth skills right in this game though...)


See now there is some ideas i can get behind. Particularly number 5. Evasion isn't the end all be all, and if i can scoop some extra AC for a melee only fight, i'll drop evasion for a second. Chances are though, i'll end up taking 6 rogue/6 ranger/and 2 paladin.

Compare a high dex character in +5 Mithril Full plate to a high dex character in the KDS. See any difference in the AC?

[Meriadeuc]

Ranger is an odd class. You should dip for 2 levels or go for 11+ levels and dip other classes.


Personally, I think that you're better off not dipping at all so that you can get 5 favored enemies at ranger 20, but if you are going to dip you're best bet is not to take more than three non-ranger levels so that you can get hiding in plain sight at ranger 17 (contingent upon it getting a decent implementation, as you note).




Compare a high dex character in +5 Mithril Full plate to a high dex character in the KDS. See any difference in the AC?


Better yet, compare a 34 dexterity character with +6 bracers and a robe to a 34 dexterity character with chaosguard and mithril full plate. See any difference in AC? Will you see any difference when +7 and +8 bracers become available?

[CSFurious]

or build a rog/fighter multi-class

some like their rangers pure, but multi-class builds are very viable

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Will you see any difference when +7 and +8 bracers become available?

I dont know much about multiclassing, but I do know +7 armour bracers are ingame now...

[QuantumFX]

Personally, I think that you're better off not dipping at all so that you can get 5 favored enemies at ranger 20, but if you are going to dip you're best bet is not to take more than three non-ranger levels so that you can get hiding in plain sight at ranger 17 (contingent upon it getting a decent implementation, as you note).

There's a lot of "it depends on" right now. I'm basing my future build split decisions on P&P models ATM. I'm hoping the enhancement system gets more 12-14 enhancements but I'm hoping it dies off after that. (Kinda like class abilities do in P&P.)


Better yet, compare a 34 dexterity character with +6 bracers and a robe to a 34 dexterity character with chaosguard and mithril full plate. See any difference in AC? Will you see any difference when +7 and +8 bracers become available?

Heh - You're talking to the guy who's levelling up a robe wearing drow dex based 11 Pally/2 Rogue/1 Fighter. (And gunning for a boosted 71 AC...)

[Meriadeuc]

There's a lot of "it depends on" right now. I'm basing my future build split decisions on P&P models ATM. I'm hoping the enhancement system gets more 12-14 enhancements but I'm hoping it dies off after that. (Kinda like class abilities do in P&P.)


Some things are still uncertain, of course, but one thing you can bet the farm on is that rangers will get five favored enemies at level 20. If they end up expanding the favored enemy enhancement lines a bit more, having all 5 will become even more valuable.

[Jaysensen]

Compare 5 FEs at +10 vs

4 FEs at +8 AND one or more of the following:
1) Uncapped UMD, Search, Disable, Open Lock
2) Pallie saves
3) Fighter bonus Feats
4) Wiz levels (I hate Wiz/Rangers but you COULD do it) = free Extend and SP bonus

You cant really say Ranger20 is better than Ranger 17/*/* as an absolute. However, I would say that a Ranger20 is drastically less FLEXIBLE than some sort of multiclass, at the cost of DPS.