inspire X, heroism, buff stacking

[Amabel]

Sorry for the silly question, but how to the inspire songs and heroism stack?

I stopped using inspire courage for a while because heroism seemed to trump it, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Should I be buffing with all of heroism, inspire courage and inspire greatness?

[Ghoste]

bard songs stack with everything, except for bless (they trump bless, and then add a few mre bonuses on top of that). Heroism also stacks with good hope when you get it.

[Amabel]

Thank you.

So does the inspire greatness- +2 attack bonus, +1 fortitude saves, and temporary hit points stack with both inspire courage bonuses and heroism?

(That almost feels like cheating! :) )

[Geonis]

bard songs stack with everything, except for bless (they trump bless, and then add a few mre bonuses on top of that). Heroism also stacks with good hope when you get it.

Uh, no. They don't. Both are competence bonuses. Heroism, Bless, Greater Heroism, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope are all competence bonuses. You only take the highest for each particular bonus.

Meaning-

Say you get Inspire Courage +3 to-hit/+3 damage (5min duration), Good Hope (10th lvl caster, extended, so it lasts 20mins), and Greater Heroism (13th lvl caster, so it lasts 13mins).

To-hit uses the bonus from Greater Hero - +4

Damage uses the bonus from Inspire courage - +3

Fear Immunity from Greater Hero overrides the + to fear saves completely.

Skills and saves use the bonus from Greater Hero - +4

You wouldn't even see the symbol for Good Hope as it is over-ridden completely (none of it's bonuses are being utilized).

After 5 mins, the song would wear off. At this point the Good Hope symbol would come back as it is adding a +2 to damage (the timer still counts even when you can't see it).


Hopefully this clarifies a little.

[Ghoste]

Yes, they all stack. The bonuses for inspire courage are classified as morale bonuses. Those from inspire greatness are competence bonuses. Heroism and greater heroism are also also morale bonuses, but for whatever reason Turbine has decided to have most songs and spells stack with each other. And for some reason, they have decided to have good hope, another moreal bonus spell, stack with all that. I'm not sure why they chose to have all that stack, but you can verify by checking your attack roles, skill bonuses, etc. before and after using those buffs.

I'm going to check into this a little more though...

Although I am positive that inspire greatness is a competence bonus (PHB 29), inspire courage a morale bonus, and that morale bonuses stack if one is a spell, and one is a song.

[Geonis]

Yes, they all stack. The bonuses for inspire courage are classified as morale bonuses. Those from inspire greatness are competence bonuses. Heroism and greater heroism are also also morale bonuses, but for whatever reason Turbine has decided to have most songs and spells stack with each other. And for some reason, they have decided to have good hope, another moreal bonus spell, stack with all that. I'm not sure why they chose to have all that stack, but you can verify by checking your attack roles, skill bonuses, etc. before and after using those buffs.

Okay, I called them the wrong thing, they are morale bonuses, but they don't stack. Check your inventory screen.

[Ghoste]

Ok, I've looked into it a bit more: good hope does not stack with heroism or greater heroism, but each of those stacks just fine with the songs which also stack with each other.

[Ghoste]

***EDIT***

Those who have responded to my post were correct, inspire courage does not stack with the spells.

I dont have a high enough level bard, but would like to check: does inspire courage stack with inspire greatness. From what I have read in the players handbook, they should since one is a morale bonus and the other is a competence bonus.

[Amabel]

Much appreciated guys. So basically, for multi-target buffs:



1. inspire courage - for attack and damage bonuses, charm and fear save bonuses

2. inspire greatness - for a stacking attack bonus, fortitude save bonus and temporary hit points

3. good hope - for further stacking bonuses and also lasts for ages

And you can also cast greater heroism on individuals which will stack with the songs (but not with good hope)

Is that right?

[Ghoste]

***EDIT***
No.

[KaKa]

So much partially correct information its not even funny.

NO THEY DO NOT STACK!!

This is where the confusion is though. They overlap!

Inspire courage does a bonus to attack and damage. Heroism does a bonus to attack and to saves and skills. The attack bonus does not stack but the bonus for the damage and the skill and saves does thats why you see both icons. Good Hope does +2 to everything attack, damage, saves, skills so the same thing with inspire courage Good hope will trump until you bring inspire to at least a +3 to attack and a damage through levels or enhancements.

Greater Heroism is a +4 bonus to attack, saves and skills and also grants fear immunity. So the greater bonus applies here when used in conjunction with inspire courage. But since they overlap depending on the bonuses certain icons will appear.

So in conclusion only the highest bonus of these these abilities and spells will apply. Since each ability does not do exactly the same thing as the last certain aspects will remain while the highest of another will trump it. Also Inspire greatness being a different bonus stacks will all of the above.

[hazur]

Greetings,

KaKa has it right, they don't all "stack" for tons of +attack, but they overlap their separate abilities. Inspire Greatness does 'stack' with other +attack bonuses though. I usually throw an extended good hope, since it hits the whole group and lasts a long time. Then I will play my songs on top of it. That way if the songs run out mid-combat there is still a hit/dam/skills bonus in there. Good question though, I bet a lot of people are in the dark about this. :)

Regards,
Booser

[Mad_Bombardier]

With the Inspired Attack enhancements, its easy for your Bardsongs to grant higher to-hit bonus than GrHero. Additionally, you get added damage. However, you lose out on bonus to saves, skills, and fear immunity.

So, put Greater Heroism on your Rogue (only if traps in quest). Put Bardsongs on everyone with a Good Hope (cheap mass buff) for minor saves/skills boost.

[sigtrent]

Ya...

Greater Heroism / Heroism attack bonuses do not stack with inspire courage, or Good Hope. They are all the same type and do not stack.

However you can have them going at the same time and whichever one provides the largest bonus to whichever value will be in effect.

Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness stack with all of the above just fine.

Sorry Ghoste but you are mistaken about how they work for whatever reason. Try turning them on one at a time with your invintory and character windows open and observe the numbers changing or not changing as the case may be.

Usualy the confusion comes in because Heroism etc.. and Inspire Courage offer bonuses to different things except that they both have an attack bonus. So you will always see both icons and thus it apears they stack, but the attack bonuses do not.

[Amabel]

Thank you for clearing that up. Makes sense now.

[Ghoste]

Thank you for those responses, I have edited my own as a result. The changes I was noticing was as they said: "overlapping".

I dont have a high enough level bard to verify isnpire greatness for myself, but since it is a competence bonus, and the others are morale bonuses, shouldn't inspire greatness stack with any of those?

And watch out for inspire heroics at lvl 15. +4 to both saves and dodge bonus to ac.

[Kizer]

Thank you for those responses, I have edited my own as a result. The changes I was noticing was as they said: "overlapping".

I dont have a high enough level bard to verify isnpire greatness for myself, but since it is a competence bonus, and the others are morale bonuses, shouldn't inspire greatness stack with any of those?

And watch out for inspire heroics at lvl 15. +4 to both saves and dodge bonus to ac.

Except for the fact that it's a morale bonus so the saves will not stack with Greater Heroism.

[Shade]

Don't have a bard..

But from what I can tell it all works correctly per pnp rules.. In that you only get the highest bonus applied, per type.

Good hope, Heroism and Inspire courage are all morale bonuses, but as noted apply to different things so the icons may disapear depending on bard level and enhancements selected.

Inspire Greatness is a competence bonus and thus should work with all of the above.

Only thing I find odd is certain bards Insire Greatness song doesn't show up, or disapears when they cast other things making it seem like its not stacking with something, yet it should with pretty much everything as none of the other songs or abilities provie a competence bonus.

Would be good to have the overall bonus numbers laid out in a easy to read table somewhere.

[Schmackdown]

Only thing I find odd is certain bards Insire Greatness song doesn't show up, or disapears when they cast other things making it seem like its not stacking with something, yet it should with pretty much everything as none of the other songs or abilities provie a competence bonus.
I have never seen this happen for IG. Either you don't get it b/c you're too far away(unlikely if you can hear it) or you're thinking of the HP bonus, which of course evaporates when those 20HP are used up. That will still leave the other buff icon and associated timer for the bonuses to hit and fort saves, though. As the only thing about IG that any given bard can change is its duration, there's no way way "certain bards" could have a stronger or weaker IG, just longer or shorter.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Except for the fact that it's a morale bonus so the saves will not stack with Greater Heroism.So, GrHero will be for skills and Fear Immunity only (ie., for Rogues and mummies).

[KaKa]

So, GrHero will be for skills and Fear Immunity only (ie., for Rogues and mummies).

Don't forget saving throws.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Don't forget saving throws.We were referring to when Inspire Heroics comes in at level 15; Inspire Heroics replaces GrHeroism with +4 to saves for everyone.

[KaKa]

Don't forget saving throws.


We were referring to when Inspire Heroics comes in at level 15; Inspire Heroics replaces GrHeroism with +4 to saves for everyone.

No was referring to this statement.


So, GrHero will be for skills and Fear Immunity only (ie., for Rogues and mummies).

GH will be only good for Skills, Fear Immunity, and for all Saving throws when used in conjunction with bard songs.

[Mad_Bombardier]

GH will be only good for Skills, Fear Immunity, and for all Saving throws when used in conjunction with bard songs.Why would you bother wasting 30SP each on GrHero when you can sing 1 extra song (Inspire Heroics) and hit everyone with +4 saves? :confused: (assuming they make it a mass spell, and not single target like Inspire Competence).

[Kizer]

It all depends on implementation of IH and your enhancement layout. If you have maxed lingering then it'd be pretty easy to keep IH up assuming you can get the group to wait through 4 songs... lol.

[Geonis]

So much partially correct information its not even funny.

So in conclusion only the highest bonus of these these abilities and spells will apply. Since each ability does not do exactly the same thing as the last certain aspects will remain while the highest of another will trump it. Also Inspire greatness being a different bonus stacks will all of the above.

Exactly like I said above?