The games so hot it's burning down my tower...

[MeNorel]

Ok maybe not so much...:)

I recently had a drive failure some where around the last large update. After installing new drives and Windows XP and all the updated drivers for my MB, Vid Card, the such I have been having an over heating problem, when playing the game.

I'm at work currently and don't have the exact specs for the machine but the MB is an Abit AV8 VIA Socket 939 ATX Motherboard with an AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Winchester Core Socket 939 CPU. With the A-Bit mother board the CPU is running at its factory setting and I have tweaked the cooling fan to run at full speed hoping to keep it cool, the CPU has never been over clocked so the heating didn't start due to that, but it is constantly running at 100% capacity since the rebuild and after about 5-10 minutes of game play it begins to heat up to the point of shutting the system down due to the temp setting, and I don't dare raise them. I can cool it down by clicking into the windows task bar(running in windows view although it heats up in full screen view as well) and making the game window the none active object the capacity drops to to 10%-20% and the heat warning stops blarring.

I have can aired the whole system, it wasn't that dirty, the system also has 4 case fans that are running at full tilt. I have not removed the CPU yet to inspect it and the cooling grease between the heat sink and the CPU itself, and I am currently running it with the side of the case off to allow more air into the system(which by the way is a server case so plenty of room for air flow).

I will be checking the grease tonight but wanted to see if:

One anyone else was having cooling issues or noticed excesive CPU usage since the update

Or

If anyone had any other ideas to look at, that maybe causing the issues.

[teddok]

Wow. I thought i had a clue but that whole grease thing lost me. So much for my impressive knowledge. (and crapy spelling.)

[Theboz]

Me thinks he ment Artic silver or something like that


If you remove your processor fan, do not reuse the paste thats on there get some new stuff to put back on. You can clean the old stuff off with some alcohol or a credit card(scrapping it off) and when you you put some new paste back on, dont over use it, put just enough to have a very thin layer with no air pockets.

[MeNorel]

Probalbly not calling it correctly, my mind is in other places, but its the material used in between the CPU and heat sink that really is the crux of the heat transfer form the CPU to the Heat sink. In asking about I was advised to check it out and make sure that it had not dried or otherwise been diminished in quantity or quality.

[Theboz]

Probalbly not calling it correctly, my mind is in other places, but its the material used in between the CPU and heat sink that really is the crux of the heat transfer form the CPU to the Heat sink. In asking about I was advised to check it out and make sure that it had not dried or otherwise been diminished in quantity or quality.


Do Not Reuse it, get some new stuff if you remove the heat sink.

[MeNorel]

Me thinks he ment Artic silver or something like that


If you remove your processor fan, do not reuse the paste thats on there get some new stuff to put back on. You can clean the old stuff off with some alcohol or a credit card(scrapping it off) and when you you put some new paste back on, dont over use it, put just enough to have a very thin layer with no air pockets.

yep thats the stuff.

[MeNorel]

Do Not Reuse it, get some new stuff if you remove the heat sink.

Oh I will, I have built several machines and know enough to get myself in trouble. :eek: and that is one thing I picked up, its not terribly expensive for the amount you need versis what is in the container but worth every penny replacing if you seperate the CPU from the HS.

[blakbyrd]

The grease itself is usually referred to as Di-Electric Grease. And, yes, always use new grease when separating the CPU from the fan.

As for your problem, I will mention a few things; take them as you like, they are just suggestions, but I;ve been through similar with other systems (and the greater majority of such situations were with AMD processors).

1. If you know that your CPU has overheated before, then chances are your problem is not going to go away until the CPU is replaced. Once a CPU gets cooked, it will generally replicated the same problems over and over and eventually completely cook itself.

2. Removig the side of the case is generally not suggested, unless additional outside cooling sources are applied to the open space. Cases are designed for specific airflow, and removing the side of the case greatly disrupts that airflow. The airflow is designed so that constant air is being pulled overtop of the components and motherboard when the case is closed. With the side open, that air no longer flows overtop of things as it should and is instead just vented out the large opening, leaving components to cook an displace heat largely just by the air movement caused by the heat they generate.

In past reference, I have had several AMD CPUs cook themselves, as well as GPUs on video cards. After the initial problem happened, those processing units were never up to par again and continued to degrade until they quite working all together. The components in a CPU are so tiny that even exceeding the heat specifications once can permanently damage them. I have also had AMD CPUs that were not up to par on their stated speed (ie. a 1.6 GHz CPU that would try to cook itself at 1.6GHz, yet worked perfect at 1.4GHz).

On a side note, and this is much more rare nowadays, is your motherboard the type that automatically detects and sets the required processor parameters, or do you have to many set them in the BIOS or via (much older types of dip switches or jumpers)?. Improperly setting, or inadvertantly changing any of these settings can quickly cook a CPU. Wrong voltages, multipliers, etc can all cause a CPU to fry.

Seeing as how you know it has overheated and failed, and obviously done so more than once, your CPU is probably no good anymore and will most likely die in short order. This does not mean that the CPU is the problem however. A failing powersupply can cause the situation, as well as a failing motherboard. Any recent power outages or surges happen recently? Is your system backed up with a real UPS, not just a surge protector?

Alot of things can lead to your problem, but it seems apparent the damage is done. In my view your problem now isnt how to get it working again, but rather how to determine what caused the damage so you know which item(s) to replace, as your CPU is most likely already due for a replacement. Computer power supplied are tough to test as most require being hooked up to test them, and will not test properly when they are not hooked up to anything, and in some cases, powering up a computer powersupply by itself (not hooked up to a motherboard) can damage the powersupply. Motherboards are also hard to properly diagnose on your own. Replaceing the CPU can be one way to test it, but if the motherboard could be bad, you could damage another CPU.

Its tough to determine. If you have the finances, I would suggest a CPU replacement and upgradig to a better brand powersupply (if you have a cheapo one now). Possibly even considering a system upgrade to a new motherbard/cpu combo, but that is your call to make not mine.

[MeNorel]

The grease itself is usually referred to as Di-Electric Grease. And, yes, always use new grease when separating the CPU from the fan.

As for your problem, I will mention a few things; take them as you like, they are just suggestions, but I;ve been through similar with other systems (and the greater majority of such situations were with AMD processors).

1. If you know that your CPU has overheated before, then chances are your problem is not going to go away until the CPU is replaced. Once a CPU gets cooked, it will generally replicated the same problems over and over and eventually completely cook itself.

2. Removig the side of the case is generally not suggested, unless additional outside cooling sources are applied to the open space. Cases are designed for specific airflow, and removing the side of the case greatly disrupts that airflow. The airflow is designed so that constant air is being pulled overtop of the components and motherboard when the case is closed. With the side open, that air no longer flows overtop of things as it should and is instead just vented out the large opening, leaving components to cook an displace heat largely just by the air movement caused by the heat they generate.

In past reference, I have had several AMD CPUs cook themselves, as well as GPUs on video cards. After the initial problem happened, those processing units were never up to par again and continued to degrade until they quite working all together. The components in a CPU are so tiny that even exceeding the heat specifications once can permanently damage them. I have also had AMD CPUs that were not up to par on their stated speed (ie. a 1.6 GHz CPU that would try to cook itself at 1.6GHz, yet worked perfect at 1.4GHz).

On a side note, and this is much more rare nowadays, is your motherboard the type that automatically detects(Yes) and sets the required processor parameters, or do you have to many set them in the BIOS or via (much older types of dip switches or jumpers)?. Improperly setting, or inadvertantly changing any of these settings can quickly cook a CPU. Wrong voltages, multipliers, etc can all cause a CPU to fry.

Seeing as how you know it has overheated and failed, and obviously done so more than once, your CPU is probably no good anymore and will most likely die in short order. This does not mean that the CPU is the problem however. A failing powersupply(This was changed out not more than 6 months ago, not sure of the brand or model but came from CompUSA was a lil over $130) can cause the situation, as well as a failing motherboard(Possible, something was damaged when the last power supply bit the dust.). Any recent power outages or surges happen recently?None that I am aware of but I am not home at all times and do leave it running 24/7 for the most part. Is your system backed up with a real UPS, not just a surge protector? (With a real UPS, conatians a battery about the size of a small riding lawn mower and can hold the system up for as long as 1 hour)

Alot of things can lead to your problem, but it seems apparent the damage is done. In my view your problem now isnt how to get it working again, but rather how to determine what caused the damage so you know which item(s) to replace, as your CPU is most likely already due for a replacement. Computer power supplied are tough to test as most require being hooked up to test them, and will not test properly when they are not hooked up to anything, and in some cases, powering up a computer powersupply by itself (not hooked up to a motherboard) can damage the powersupply. Motherboards are also hard to properly diagnose on your own. Replaceing the CPU can be one way to test it, but if the motherboard could be bad, you could damage another CPU.

Its tough to determine. If you have the finances, I would suggest a CPU replacement and upgradig to a better brand powersupply (if you have a cheapo one now). Possibly even considering a system upgrade to a new motherbard/cpu combo, but that is your call to make not mine.

Yeah I'm going to try refreshing the grease and pray that the monitoring system on the Motherboard saved it but I have priced an upgrade for the CPU and tigerdirct has an AMD X2 for $60 not so large an out lay concidering a new MOBO/CPU combo will reach over $400 to $500, would be going for a total upgrade if it came to that, going PCI express DDR2 Ram and better process and Vid Card.

Here's getting on my knees, crosing my finers, legs, arms, and eyes and praying things are ok with it.

[blakbyrd]

Here's getting on my knees, crosing my finers, legs, arms, and eyes and praying things are ok with it.

Best of luck to you there. Personally I lost all such hope under such situations a long time ago and have found the frustration time to be well worth throwing some money at to not have to try diagnosing such things anymore.

As for powersupplies, especially for gaming computers, there is alot more to take into account than just power rating. Make sure if you replace again or get a new system that you get a good power supply, and not some cheapo one or one that just happens to come with the computer case (you may likely be asking for future problems and expenses if you do, and warranties can be voided under use of such things or simply not covered for it).

Still, I wish you best of luck in determining the problem or cause, and maybe you will get lucky in having been able to save your CPU, but my experience (and box of CPUs) suggests otherwise. CPUs just cannot take overheating, as they have to handle alot of heat as it is. Once they do, I havent found one yet that would ever work as it should again.

Still, the value of replacing things and the money you feel you can afford to replace things is no one's call but your own. Personally I simply look at it this way. At minimum I charge $20-$25 an hour for computer service (which I simply do on the side, it's not my offical profession), and thus 3 hours trying to salvage a burnt CPU just paid for simply replacing the thing to start with and saving myself some aggravation. Most computer components nowadays are not made to be fixed, just replaced. Balancing out what that time is worth to you and the cost of just replacing things is up to you. Many people may simply not have the funds to replace things anyways, so it doesnt matter, but if you do...well...you know what I would say at this point :)

Good luck.

[MeNorel]

Sound advise, I'm going to do just that most likely, popit out re-grease it see if it works if not then just replace it with an upgrade. It's due anyway. :D

I just hope it doesn't reach further than just the CPU.

Is it possible for one part of it to go out like that, I mean the OS, or other applications including processing intensive ones like Paintshop Pro and a Movie editing software don't seem to have any problems running without sending my CPU into meltdown, it just occurs when I am actively on DDO.

[blakbyrd]

Is it possible for one part of it to go out like that, I mean the OS, or other applications including processing intensive ones like Paintshop Pro and a Movie editing software don't seem to have any problems running without sending my CPU into meltdown, it just occurs when I am actively on DDO.

Quite possible. Movie and photo editing type of stuff, uses resources differently. Although processing power is importnat, that usage is more static in nature. Heavy graphics editing can be more memory intensive than CPU intensive, and even when intensive effects and such are being used, that is only for a short period of time in bursts, unlike DDO where the constant updating and processing is going on all the time. Video settings in a game make a difference as well. The higher the settings the more information that has to be moved and processed quickly, on top of the constant updating of game positiong and avatar placements, etc.

One thing that would be more in tune with comparing such a game to other software would be to run a higher end CAD/CAM with true 3D rendering in solids...that is very processor intensive due to what is having to actually be rendered. 3D games only emulate the presence of solids, but no solids actually exist, whereas trying to truely render a realistic solid is difficult and processor intensive, especially if you want to rotate a single item or piece together multiple solids into actula complex motions.

Just as a side note, this is also why many such games have problems with collision detection. With solids there would be no problem, but in a 3D world where 3D is just emulated, collision detection is a problem, because all "3D" objects only exist from skins that have no thickness, making everything basically hollow with no walls. Basically, everything is a hologram, requiring extra coding to determine and place boundaries on everything, where actual solids wouldnt need it (which is why you can walk through some doors, fall through floors, stairs works like ramps, not stairs, etc. It simplifies the processing power, as no one would have a home computer capable of running a game such as DDO is it were designed around real solids.

[MeNorel]

Just an update to anyone else that may find this post about an overheating issue, After removing the CPU and reapplying the Artic Silver to the CPU and Heat sink, and removing the Fan from the Heat sink and throughly blowing it out, the overheating issue has been resolved.

My frame rate has gone up dramatically as well, played for a lil over 2 hours the CPU never climbing above 82 degrees F. and no alarms, though the CPU usage is still moslty in the 98-100% range.

Keep those Heat skinks and Fan's clean, not sure if the fresh grease had much to do with it since there was a solid 1/8"(maybe a lil less) layer of dust between the fan and the heat sink that would not come out without seperating the heat sink and the Fan, and was hard to see without removing it from the system.