Zerging Wizards

[Ghoste]

Ran some favor today. Saw an lfm by a bunch of lvl 14s all in the same guild to do a quest I hadn't done yet on my current character on elite. It was a lvl 7 quest (9 on elite) that can be quite long, but I thought, all lvl 14s, we should fly through this.

So we all gather up outside the quest and begin going inside. I take off. A firm voice comes on over voice chat, "Ghoste, could you please come back here with the rest of us?"

A little puzzled, I go back and wait for everyone to load in, cast enough buffs to cover the whole stretch across the top of my screen, and complain about the charmed guy who followed me back from the little skirmish they just asked me to abandon.

After waiting patiently for all that, I quitly asked, "are you guys planning on doing this as a dungeon crawl, or just blast through it for favor?" Bunch of lvl 14s in a lvl 7 quest...you never know...They say "fast for favor". Perfect.

Whatever, so we get going, and I take off; charm here, fireball there, invisible past that group. The party's not taking much damage, I'm taking next to none, repairing whatever I do. To be fair the cleric did throw me one cure when I was between battles and already at 95% health - thanks. Despite this, I sense people are still getting frustrated that I'm running ahead as far and as fast as I am. I get to the last couple rooms where the boss is, rest of the party still not in sight. I rush in, a little crowd control, and nuke the boss just as the first straggler arrives. Quest completion in reasonable, although not stellar time.

I recall out, couple poeple b**** and moan a little bit, nothing too much, and they boot me from the party.

Lol, I expected a whole lot more from a guild with a name suggesting high competence who said they intended to do it quickly. I would have been done more quickly had I just asked them to open it for me on elite, break group, and reform their own party to do it without me. I got the impression that they would have liked that more as well.

[Vinos]

funny story but I am not sure why this is in the guides section.

[Ghoste]

Good point. Meant it as a discussion started about strategy, not so much a guide per se. Should have put it in strategy section.

[tihocan]

Not much to discuss, but... :D

[Aspenor]

My name is Aspenor. I am a Zerging Wizard/Sorceror. I insist on entering rooms by myself and charming/nuking/fearing my way through low level favor.

[Wizzly_Bear]

My name is Aspenor. I am a Zerging Wizard/Sorceror. I insist on entering rooms by myself and charming/nuking/fearing my way through low level favor.

QFT, but name is Wizzly =D

honestly, i spent 13 levels as every1 else's buff witch ( ;) ), it's MY turn to have fun now, lol.

but seriously, you did ask and they did say yes to speeding through. i dont see what the problem is :confused:

[TommyBoy]

1st were any of them wizards other than you?
if no then thats why they see casters as squishy including the mitheral ones




2nd were they fleshlings?
if no to 1st and yes to 2nd why did you not just squish them, they're unworthy

[Wizzly_Bear]

1st were any of them wizards other than you?
if no then thats why they see casters as squishy including the mitheral ones




2nd were they fleshlings?
if no to 1st and yes to 2nd why did you not just squish them, they're unworthy

lol

[Blind_Skwerl]

Some people's ideas of rushing are different than others. I have a static loot group I run with and we go really, really fast. PoP elite runs in 10 minutes type fast. We were going to do GHT pre-raid runs the one night, and one of the group had to log. We LFM'ed an alternate explaining that we rush these things. A body was found and off we went. The guy was constantly running off doing god-knows-what. Then in the middle of the first dragon, the guy says, "Ooh! I won an auction! The cloak of improved fire resistance is mine! Hold on guys, I'll be right back. I want to go get it." Are you F'ing serious?!!!!
It wasn't even a greater resistance! We were just starting the dragons! We let him finish out to go get the thing, then mysteriously, his name no longer appeared in the group list.

[Ghoste]

1st were any of them wizards other than you?
if no then thats why they see casters as squishy including the mitheral ones




2nd were they fleshlings?
if no to 1st and yes to 2nd why did you not just squish them, they're unworthy
Lol. There was one other wizard, and he was hanging faithfully behind the tanks as if he were still 1st level, not 14th. They were all fleshlings - part of the reason I didn't look back to see what they were up to.

I was odd, it was one of those runs where you could just feel the tension in the air. They were trying to be polite, but you could feel the annoyance when they did speak. It's like they were waiting for me to get overwhelmed and die, and then chew me out at that point.

I die often enough when I zerg off like that, but not in quests that many levels below me. They just really came across to me as people lacking an experimental/creative mind set. Yes sticking together is usually safer, but there are a lot of situations in DDO that most people seem to pass up where, in my opinion, splitting up and going nuts is the best thing to do.

[Snike]

Depends on the quest imo.

[Crabo]

Lol. There was one other wizard, and he was hanging faithfully behind the tanks as if he were still 1st level, not 14th. They were all fleshlings - part of the reason I didn't look back to see what they were up to.

I was odd, it was one of those runs where you could just feel the tension in the air. They were trying to be polite, but you could feel the annoyance when they did speak. It's like they were waiting for me to get overwhelmed and die, and then chew me out at that point.

I die often enough when I zerg off like that, but not in quests that many levels below me. They just really came across to me as people lacking an experimental/creative mind set. Yes sticking together is usually safer, but there are a lot of situations in DDO that most people seem to pass up where, in my opinion, splitting up and going nuts is the best thing to do.

Everyone plays at varying levels. A quest that may be easy for you may be a complete struggle for some wether they are 14 or not. It is possible they did not know the quest as well as you either it would seem..in which case it would have probably been nicer of you to show them a few tricks rather than try to warp speed it. The reason you felt tension is because running off by yourself in a dungeon is unsociable...and some are only here to be social.
Yes it may only be a favor run, but if you are just blatantly using the guys to open the quest on elite for you, then ignoring them during the quest...maybe you should expect to feel some tension from them.

[RandomToon]

It's easy. You are a gimp, and they are mad that they had to play with you. What makes a gimp? Well...

The melees go first, and get buffs. If the fighters want to go "fast" then you better keep up. They are not required to do crowd control with stunning blow, trip, or intimidate because it will detract from making the "other" classes feel useful. If they don't lead in kill count, they are gimps (thus, unless they tie, there can only be one non-gimp melee per party).

Rangers are really just poorly done twf fighters. Any that use bows, or don't have extend spell and enough mana to give everyone barkskin all the time are gimps.

The wizards/sorcs cast buffs and do crowd control so the fighters can actually kill things. NEVER run ahead of anyone, and if something trys to attack you immediately run around the room screaming "help!". If they cast any spells that are lame (like Symbol of Fear, or Glitterdust) they are gimps.

The cleric heals and is NEVER to enter melee or cast an offensive spell. If the party wanted someone who could fight, they would have gotten another fighter. You must not complain when people say " heel plz" even though they are at 95% health. If a cleric ever lets someones health drop below 90% or DOESN'T HAVE any DV's, they are gimps. (I actually had someone say "heel plz" to me and laugh about it. I was NOT happy...)

Rogues are there to do traps when the trap can't just be run through. They can't fight, do melee, use scrolls, or have a competant plan of action. If they can't do the trap in Cabal For One they are gimps.

Bards are gimps.

If the party does not contain exactly 6 members, it is doomed to fail. If they party ever splits up to make things go faster, the server will crash.

On that note...Gianthold Tor, Elite. 2 Sorcs, 2 Wizards, 1 Cleric, 1 Bard. About half way through, the cleric started to spam damage spells just to have something to do. It was a lot of fun, no deaths, and some great loot. Not bad for a gimped party.

[tihocan]

Then in the middle of the first dragon, the guy says, "Ooh! I won an auction! The cloak of improved fire resistance is mine! Hold on guys, I'll be right back. I want to go get it."
LMAO :D

[Beergut]

Ghoste - what happened here is you schooled the guild. They were probably pretty **** envious of what you were able to accomplish on your own and felt like a bunch of schmoes.

Sometimes I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job running a few back to back loot runs in PUGS. Then I'll join a group and just watch in awe as someone wrecks the joint.

Happened the other night on a POP run. Joined a group of folks I never saw before. 4 of them in the same guild. A good, balanced group. They didn't talk much at all. We go in and buff. Beerkeg takes out a +1 Para greataxe until he can figure out what to use to better complement the group.

Then the frenzy begins - I was hardly able to paralize anything - never mind kill things. PK to the left and right - Vorpals swinging with crazy crit rates. It was nuts and I was absolutely humbled. I switched to my vorpal and then my room specific weapons. I finished the quest with two kills. I know kills aren't THAT important but I'm a barbarian for crying out loud.

Anyway - went on 3 more runs with these guys and tried to learn a bit from them. I had fun.

The point is - some people look at superior players with envy and jealousy. Others look at them with admiration and respect. Seems like the group you were with fit into the former category.

[RandomToon]

The point is - some people look at superior players with envy and jealousy. Others look at them with admiration and respect. Seems like the group you were with fit into the former category.

Wow, I have never heard it put so perfectly. Nice.

[Gaermain]

Gianthold Tor, Elite. 2 Sorcs, 2 Wizards, 1 Cleric, 1 Bard.

Man, I bet that run was a blast and a half...literally.

Good times, good times.

[Shade]

If you could notably tell they were annoyed with what you were doing, and were even asked to wait.. You should have left that group right there and solo'd the quest because that was basicly what you were doing.

Ruining it for a group of players that wanted to have some fun.

Theres a big differecne between doing a quest fast as a group, and zerging thru like mad with no regard for other people.

If you join a pug you have an obligation to work with that group, otherwies you shouldn't have joined. The leader was right to kick you. If I was the leader in that case I'd be allot less polite and ask you to leave mid quest.

Just because a group doesn't zerg thru a quest does not make them incompetant or bad players. I often take full 6 man groups into quests below my lvl, but if its the first few times im doing the quest i'll still take my time and do it slow to enjoy it.

And sorry beergut, but you need to reroll. 2 kills in pop means your character is horrible no matter how better skilled the rest of the group is. Anyone using a vorpal in potp will be lucky to get 10% of the kills my barbarian gets there.

[Dingo123]

Yeah... I asked one of your guildies about you Ghoste because you seem to think very highly of yourself. Was curious on whether or not the myth you portrated matched reality.

Apparently you're something of a joke to some of those people.

Saw you in the portable hole a while back. Waved at you. =)

Either way, yeah, you showed bad manners.

Yeah, he said they were going to go quickly.

But you were rude and a prime candidate for team removal.

Just because you CAN run ahead doesn't mean you SHOULD run ahead.

[Ghoste]

Yeah... I asked one of your guildies about you Ghoste because you seem to think very highly of yourself. Was curious on whether or not the myth you portrated matched reality.

Apparently you're something of a joke to some of those people.

Saw you in the portable hole a while back. Waved at you. =)

Either way, yeah, you showed bad manners.

Yeah, he said they were going to go quickly.

But you were rude and a prime candidate for team removal.

Just because you CAN run ahead doesn't mean you SHOULD run ahead.
If that's what you think, I can handle it without becoming petty about it. I know what it amounts to though is your inability to deal with people who disagree with you. I have seen over and over you respond with open hostility to posts meant only to discuss the topic at hand openly.

Dont expect it to stop. If I disagree with a post I see, I will disagree. You however may experience less stress if you can learn to see the difference between disagreeing and flaming.

Likewise, I suppose I can expect posts from you to follow me throughout the forums full of insult and mockery. Let's see if I can handle it better than you have.

Lastly, I will leave you with a quote from Nietzsche:
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - see? Disagreement is not a bad thing. So take it easy there Dingo, I'm not your enemy, even if you try to make me so.

[Ghoste]

Just thought I'd add another quote, one I know will strike close to home:

This provides you with a description of the nature of the people who post against my ideas. In a way, it comforts me. As children do they feel the desire to mock and denigrate.

[redspecter23]

I see the answer here as overly obvious. If 5 people in a group want to run a quest in a specific way and the sixth doesn't, the sixth person is wrong regardless of his reasoning. You need to adapt to meet the needs of the majority of the group so everyone is on the same page. Happy players get things done and have more fun with it. If you're not able to adapt to the group properly, then you may need to be more specific when joining PUGs or just keep to guild runs. You can always speed through a quest much faster with people you know and have played with before. The joy of PUGging for me is the need to adapt and learn new strategies (sometimes good, sometimes bad). The definition of speeding through can be very different for different people.

[Rameses]

I zerg in every quest I run. Why? You may ask. Boredom, vague sense of superiority, calous disregard for my characters XP bar.

But I'd like to also point that I travel with others that feel or atleast play the same as I do. I am one of those people that get disapointed because I just ran The Crucible in 23 minutes, I've done it faster. Lets do it again... that was way too slow.

I'd also like to give props to Beergut. Not only is he a new player to DDO but he's a **** funny person that I've always enjoyed partying with. His Barb is a solid build for a 28pt'r and he couldn't help it that he was out gunned by "new" casters.
What do I mean by "new" Caster? There's a revolution giong on with Casters that is spreading and that is using their Spell Points for something other than Crowd Control and Buffing. These casters are not so-much nukers as killers. They are proving that the Wizard/Sorceror class is superior and all powerful. Now granted a lot of these Casters are held back by players that can not grasp the concept of self-suffiency. Seriously you wanted a Resist 30? Don't you have a cloak or ring? No, you sell those because it's the casters responsibility to "hook you up." Sorry, I am suddenly out of spell points. Catch me at the shrine I might have a little left to buff then.

Now I am not saying that eventually the Melee classes will remain backseated to Casters. After all this is DDO as such everything goes in circles... first it was halflings will rule all because they got all the benafitts (?spelling don't care) of being a Halfling and none of the negatives. Drow were going to be the end of DDO. Then it was Sword and Board, this is only way a fighter or any melee class should fight and you will get yelled at for even mentioning that you have a two handed weapon in your enventory. Caster classes were here only to buff and haste.
Lets look at how things are now. Dwarfs are the big dogs (pratically every class can be made better by being a dwarf.) Two Handed Weapons are the weapons of choice. Casters kill things. Halflings do not rule the world nor do the Drow. AC takes second seat to Hit Points.

Sorry for the rant and rave. Play how you like. I won't judge you if you don't judge me. And trust me. I never die in quest.

I am, Rameses!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Ramz pretty much sums up how DDO is going right now.

But again it'll change come MOD 5 when we figure out who does what best.

Right now its barbs doing massive crit damage...well, the crit damage wont mean much come MOD 5 and all those lovely undead.

As to the OP, well, like someone else said, you joined a party that maybe didnt want to zerg as much as you did...Id prolly have done the same thing you did, but thats not right. If five of the six want to do it a certain way then we should probably abide by their playstyle for the duration of the quest. Its not our place to ruin their fun by zerging...now, is it? No big deal, I mean sometimes you cant help but zerg....like Waterworks when you roll a new build...we all know it inside out, we cant help but zerg...but some dont want/cant zerg and if thats the majority of the party then we should respect that too.

Ho hum, it happens. Some zerg well, others think they zerg and have no idea. Yeah, they said quick favor run...but that could mean something entirely different to each of us. Im sure Ramz zerging is, well, fast.

Oh and Ghoste, Dingo is kinda scaring me with his stalkin'!

[WeaselKing]

It's easy. You are a gimp, and they are mad that they had to play with you. What makes a gimp? Well...

The melees go first, and get buffs. If the fighters want to go "fast" then you better keep up. They are not required to do crowd control with stunning blow, trip, or intimidate because it will detract from making the "other" classes feel useful. If they don't lead in kill count, they are gimps (thus, unless they tie, there can only be one non-gimp melee per party).

Rangers are really just poorly done twf fighters. Any that use bows, or don't have extend spell and enough mana to give everyone barkskin all the time are gimps.

The wizards/sorcs cast buffs and do crowd control so the fighters can actually kill things. NEVER run ahead of anyone, and if something trys to attack you immediately run around the room screaming "help!". If they cast any spells that are lame (like Symbol of Fear, or Glitterdust) they are gimps.

The cleric heals and is NEVER to enter melee or cast an offensive spell. If the party wanted someone who could fight, they would have gotten another fighter. You must not complain when people say " heel plz" even though they are at 95% health. If a cleric ever lets someones health drop below 90% or DOESN'T HAVE any DV's, they are gimps. (I actually had someone say "heel plz" to me and laugh about it. I was NOT happy...)

Rogues are there to do traps when the trap can't just be run through. They can't fight, do melee, use scrolls, or have a competant plan of action. If they can't do the trap in Cabal For One they are gimps.

Bards are gimps.

If the party does not contain exactly 6 members, it is doomed to fail. If they party ever splits up to make things go faster, the server will crash.

On that note...Gianthold Tor, Elite. 2 Sorcs, 2 Wizards, 1 Cleric, 1 Bard. About half way through, the cleric started to spam damage spells just to have something to do. It was a lot of fun, no deaths, and some great loot. Not bad for a gimped party.

It is this attitude that makes a lot of PUG's annoying to play with, the beauty of PnP was (is) the ability to play your character anyway you want (within your alignment). Buffbots can be nice but so are nukers (I have both), and I have an offensive WF cleric that does not keep heal on the hotbars (might wandwhip between battles though).

I am glad to see though that your post was meant in jest, RandomToon. People need to understand that if they want a buffbot for their party they need to ask for one in their LFM instead of assuming that all casters are ready to buff them.

And btw bards make the best buffbots.

[muffinlad]

Some very interesting points here, and with small exception, some well thought out posts.

I have to say that I have been "awe'd" by the high end power of some of the Sorcs and Wizards I have seen playing over the last few months. I am NOT one of them. I am a buffing wizard, and I like that style of play. I kill things on occasion, but for the most part I leave that to the Fighters. They enjoy themselves, and I don't have to worry about who killed what.

That being said, simply kicking you out, without saying why, or even, asking you to leave first, seemed to be a passive-aggressive move, and not very adult. A simple "We wish you well, but don't enjoy your play style" seemed in order.

Regs,

muffinrunner

[Geonis]

Ran some favor today. Saw an lfm by a bunch of lvl 14s all in the same guild to do a quest I hadn't done yet on my current character on elite. It was a lvl 7 quest (9 on elite) that can be quite long, but I thought, all lvl 14s, we should fly through this.

So we all gather up outside the quest and begin going inside. I take off. A firm voice comes on over voice chat, "Ghoste, could you please come back here with the rest of us?"

A little puzzled, I go back and wait for everyone to load in, cast enough buffs to cover the whole stretch across the top of my screen, and complain about the charmed guy who followed me back from the little skirmish they just asked me to abandon.

After waiting patiently for all that, I quitly asked, "are you guys planning on doing this as a dungeon crawl, or just blast through it for favor?" Bunch of lvl 14s in a lvl 7 quest...you never know...They say "fast for favor". Perfect.

Whatever, so we get going, and I take off; charm here, fireball there, invisible past that group. The party's not taking much damage, I'm taking next to none, repairing whatever I do. To be fair the cleric did throw me one cure when I was between battles and already at 95% health - thanks. Despite this, I sense people are still getting frustrated that I'm running ahead as far and as fast as I am. I get to the last couple rooms where the boss is, rest of the party still not in sight. I rush in, a little crowd control, and nuke the boss just as the first straggler arrives. Quest completion in reasonable, although not stellar time.

I recall out, couple poeple b**** and moan a little bit, nothing too much, and they boot me from the party.

Lol, I expected a whole lot more from a guild with a name suggesting high competence who said they intended to do it quickly. I would have been done more quickly had I just asked them to open it for me on elite, break group, and reform their own party to do it without me. I got the impression that they would have liked that more as well.



This reminds me of a POP run I did a while back. We go in and buff and head out to the hall. The first encounter of 2 dwarven fighters, I Dominate Person on them. The party leader says, "Don't Charm, you're just wasting SPs". I respond with, "Really? Why don't the rest of you go back into the room down there? I'll let you know when it's clear." I proceeded to clear the entire hallway with nothing but Dominate Person, Enervation, and Haste. When I got done the party leader comes back with, "We're not gonna help you when all those charmed guys break!" My response, "Okay, I'll worry about that."



Needless to say, the fighter types weren't happy with the kill counts. About 80% was Misadventure. :D



So, we finish the last battle, and as the doors open back up, I run up to talk to the guy and finish it. Head back down to the chest and look who's following me, a couple of my charmed guys who got stuck, still dominated after ~20mins. :eek:


So, what do I do? Of course I finish out! Oops! :D

[Crabo]

The party leader says, "Don't Charm, you're just wasting SPs". I respond with, "Really? Why don't the rest of you go back into the room down there? I'll let you know when it's clear."




So you joined a group why? If you want to solo the dungeon, why dont you?
Oh...because there is noone there to watch right?
Always amusing when someone uses POP as an example of their uberness.
Btw, whatever you do with charms i will do faster without.

[Shade]

Not only that, you left charmed enemies behind.. Both causing confusion to your party, possibly lowering the overall quests XP and really just wasting the groups time by not keeping track of what your doing.

If a group asks you to not charm, respect that or drop the group and solo the dungeon, its just rude to try to do it anyways, even if you can easily solo it.

Charm can be fun for the caster, but its annoying as hell for the rest of the party.

[Borrigain]

Oh Lord, why am I getting involved in this?

YOUR way does not always equal most fun for the entire group. Either roll with the GROUP, find like-minded individuals, or do it solo. Just because they ENJOY doing a mission different from your style of play does not make them "incompetent". Quit being "holier-than-thou".

Bottom line from reading this Ghoste is I think you exhibited a callous attitude to them and they were right in exuding tension. Especially when you ran off and finished the end boss without them. That's just plain mean. If I was there, I would have been ****ed. Like, "what the f*** was the point of even coming in here if I don't even get to PARTICIPATE!"

You should have just said, "I like to blaze ahead, sorry, let me drop so you can find a replacement. See you later." And dropped group. I bet that as things were, instead of both mind-sets having fun, neither did.

Borr.

[Roguewiz]

So you joined a group why? If you want to solo the dungeon, why dont you?
Oh...because there is noone there to watch right?
Always amusing when someone uses POP as an example of their uberness.
Btw, whatever you do with charms i will do faster without.

/growls and nods knowingly
**** PK/FoD


Charm can be fun for the caster, but its annoying as hell for the rest of the party.

QFT


Zerging, unless with a reason (IE..flagging up for Queen/VoN), has no place in my groups. I want to learn a quest, not be nose pulled through it.

I find it easier to loot the stone of the dead zerger in question, reform the group without them.

[Ghoste]

A couple people have responded here suggesting I should have run with the group and done what they wanted. I asked the group at the beginning what they wanted and they made it clear they wanted to get it done quickly for favor. Had they said otherwise, I was willing to slow down.

Especially when you ran off and finished the end boss without them. That's just plain mean. If I was there, I would have been ****ed. Like, "what the f*** was the point of even coming in here if I don't even get to PARTICIPATE!"Again I made a point of asking very clearly at the beginning; were they in this for the adventure, or to just quickly knock it off their list for favor? They said do it quickly for favor. That is what they were coming along for. As for why I was with them and not soloing it: the only reason was because they could open it on elite, and I could only open it on normal with that character. Finishing the quest mean? They never at any point came out and said wait for us. Their attitude was more along the lines that my approach was going to get me killed, and any second now I was going to come running back to them screaming for heals. I kept hearing from them, gather up for this or that buff, oh I guess Ghoste misses out on the buffs, Ghoste could you please haste us, oh wait, where are you anyways? You left all these charmed guys behind - so what, we werent getting any xp from the quest, just ignore the charmed guys. Absolutely no reason at all to stop and stare at a charmed guy who got stuck on a corner. Again, no one ever said "please stay with the group", I asked them if that's what they wanted - they just had a very different idea of what "fast" means. Despite repeated complaints about leaving pets behind, the only time it became an issue was when I purposely teleported out of the quest when it was done. It's like my dad always said:"you want to complain, fine then, I'll give you something to complain about." That last bit, yes, I will admit was a very calloused thing to do.

Charm can be fun for the caster, but its annoying as hell for the rest of the party.
Why why why why does every party think they need to sit around and wait to fight every last charmed guy? I can understand if a pet needs to die for the quest to progress, but that has no ramification for those in the hallways of PoP, or any of them at all anywhere in Tear od Dakhaan (the quest I was refering to). Ignore the charmed guys, let the caster who charmed them worry about them. As far as the rest of the party should be concerned, charmed foes should no longer be on their list of things to worry about. Get on with the quest. Don't pretend you're concerned about my well being. If that's the case, feel free to teach me a lesson and let my pets turn on me. Please, if only everyone out there thought like that, then we could actually get on with quests instead of sitting around staring at pets, waiting for them to turn.

***Edit***
Having said all that, I do admit I was stubborn. I came into the quest, got the idea they had something a little different in mind than smashing through it, addressed that, they tip-toed around it, so did things my way. It was stubborn and callous, etc. of me. A big part of that was my reaction to the squeamishness of these people in tackling this quest, and their squeamishness in not talking plainly to me. I think both my stubborness, and their tight-lipped, passive-aggressive annoyance contributed to a mutual decrease in respect for one another.

[Mourn]

Not only that, you left charmed enemies behind.. Both causing confusion to your party, possibly lowering the overall quests XP and really just wasting the groups time by not keeping track of what your doing.

If a group asks you to not charm, respect that or drop the group and solo the dungeon, its just rude to try to do it anyways, even if you can easily solo it.

Charm can be fun for the caster, but its annoying as hell for the rest of the party.

I'm an enchanter at heart, I influence encounters via charm, hold and insta kill. It is nice to see a small army of elites faithfully following me along killin things for me. If you know what your doing and cycle through your charmed mobs via them killing each other there really is no enemies left behind.

I really dont see how it is annoying to the rest of the party, its a form of cc that causes damage to your enemies. Everyone should be open to different tactics, not just fighter hack and slash mode. Thats why we have a selection of spells we can pick from.

That does not mean that I would charm if asked not to, cause I would not. But like everyone else, no one likes to be told how to play. Me I would sulk, cast here and there. Let the tanks get their large # of kills to make them feel better about themselves then move on when its done. But I tend to remember people so maybe next time it might be "sorry, I'm busy atm. gl."

[Nero]

And sorry beergut, but you need to reroll. 2 kills in pop means your character is horrible no matter how better skilled the rest of the group is. Anyone using a vorpal in potp will be lucky to get 10% of the kills my barbarian gets there.

Id love to see your barbarian get any kills with my sorc in there. The only room I don't get all the kills in is the vampire room because instead of nuking it on elite I am usually nice and flesh to stone the vamp for the group. I usually let the group get the marut kill too. But other then that I can charge upward one shotting everything almost flawlessly even on elite. The rakasha's even drop after one shot from a nicely powered schorch. Beergut is in what is deemed as a "good casting" party. My groups don't usually complain because hell its **** near free loot. So after blasting up the stairs I shrine real quick Drop a firewall in most rooms except fire while jumping around blured displaced and ring of shadowed. Plenty of mana for end room. Bam done in 5-10 min 15 If I feel like flesh to stoning everything for the party for fun.

The only reason I don't solo it is because I have not yet managed to walk through electrical force fields.

Well anyways Im getting ahead of myself. My point is... Towards end game each class has its own little specialty even if you didn't mean it. Each class has something they can do better then anyone else or do it in a way no-one else can. For casters end game its one of 4 specs or a hybrid. Buffbot Nuker Killer Charmer. Barbarians have DPS mode and UBER Tank mode. Fighters have DPS AC HP and Style modes. Rangers have all the favored enemy modes + twf mode +range mode. Rouges have Trapbot or DPS mode. Clerics have Heal/buffbot Offensive casting and Melee mode. Paladins have Tanking and Buffbot modes. Bards can do a bit of everything or focus on certain ones and have the nice songs to toy with. But even with all these "typical" builds Its still just an elaborate game of paper rock scissors. Caster Kill mode is Paper Melee's are rock and undead are scissor. If that makes since.

What changes that even more is play style and how used you are to the others play style. I understand this is unpredictable in pugs but hey thats half the fun. If ones charging ahead and doing his job type right against what hes good at more power to him. But then again where does that leave the other guys. Everyone is entitled to fun just be careful about that. And also remember everyone has a different idea of fun.

[Samadhi]

Been there done that Ghoste - I feel your pain. Fortunately I have learned to channel such happenings into amusement to save my own stress levels :D.

What I have always been even more intrigued with, however, is when I am the party leader. When PUG-ing, I almost always shoot for starting my own quest, b/c I leave no one to guess how I plan on running a quest. I post quite explicitly exactly how fast I plan on doing the quest. (ZERG/FAST - no optionals - in progress) <- My most common post, even if its not in progress, just to let folks know I'm not waiting to start it either.

About 70% of the time this works quite well, some folks may be hesitant because of their newness, but will usually send me a tell and I assure them their joining is fine as long as they focus on keeping up first - no problems usually follow in this 70%. Another 20% of the time there is one group member that, for whatever reason I can only guess, is still disputing the playstyle the whole way through - if someone can honestly explain this guy I would seriously like to know the logic. I advertised how we were running the quest. Did you not believe me?

Then, the other 10%, is the nightmare group where despite readily sufficient advertising, you get multiple people like the example above... These have one of two results. Either a) I'm able to handle the quest myself, and do so, and thereby can't pay much attention to them b/c I'm juggling everything b) I can't handle it myself - and I sit back in amazement, see question above, wondering what they thought when they hit join.

The place this most amuses me is probably in desert pre-reqs where folks that are in supposedly respectable guilds act like they have never run the quest before... and I'm not trying to rant, I'm looking for honest feedback from players that might have been on the other end of this stick into how things like this happen. What did you think when you hit join?

[Shade]

Id love to see your barbarian get any kills with my sorc in there.

One of the reason I don't like that quest heh.

But no, even if you had unlimited spell points and rolled 20 everytime id get allot more then 2 kills. I run nearly twice as fast as sorcerers so I often just run past everything there pk'ing and get some kills, I 1 shot the mobs there too anyways.

And since you brought it up, on my sorcerer.. I don't even let the melees kill the vampire or the marut. Kill the stupid vampire in 2-3 seconds, and I don't even have schorching ray. Marut takes 2-3 shots of disintigrate/cone of cold.

[Nero]

One of the reason I don't like that quest heh.

But no, even if you had unlimited spell points and rolled 20 everytime id get allot more then 2 kills. I run nearly twice as fast as sorcerers so I often just run past everything there pk'ing and get some kills, I 1 shot the mobs there too anyways.

And since you brought it up, on my sorcerer.. I don't even let the melees kill the vampire or the marut. Kill the stupid vampire in 2-3 seconds, and I don't even have schorching ray. Marut takes 2-3 shots of disintigrate/cone of cold.

You run nearly as twice as fast as most sorcs. I don't bother killing marut or vamp because it gives the other guys something to do not because I can't. I have 30% striding boots (had to nearly trade my soul for them) plus a haste. Im sure I can run just as fast as you. Don't need unlimited spell points and I dont have to roll its them that have to roll. Thus I target what your targeting and steal the kill. I can run ahead with you too! Simple as that. I have a hair trigger with my targetting. Now in the end room if I focused purely on the boss you might get kills there is you didn't focus on the boss. I wouldn't mind racing you one of these days. It would be a fun challenge if your as good as you say you are. Then once one of us win we can happily walk out arm and arm with the easy elite loot. Heh even if you do win I can guarentee it will be some of the easiest runs we've had.

[Allorious]

The only reason I don't solo it is because I have not yet managed to walk through electrical force fields.


I solo it on elite and can show you how to time the fields.

[kaishaku]

The point is - some people look at superior players with envy and jealousy. Others look at them with admiration and respect. Seems like the group you were with fit into the former category.

This is the reason, quoted again for emphasis.

[Lithic]

Quote from some guy: "Anything you can do with charms i can do faster without"

Thats a big LOL. Machine-gun charms means 8min feast or cabal runs on elite. Whenever Im in a full party doing the whole FOD/Mass hold thing so the others can feel usefull I use about twice the mana and it takes twice as long.

[Frostbite]

Ran some favor today. Saw an lfm by a bunch of lvl 14s all in the same guild to do a quest I hadn't done yet on my current character on elite. It was a lvl 7 quest (9 on elite) that can be quite long, but I thought, all lvl 14s, we should fly through this.

So we all gather up outside the quest and begin going inside. I take off. A firm voice comes on over voice chat, "Ghoste, could you please come back here with the rest of us?"

A little puzzled, I go back and wait for everyone to load in, cast enough buffs to cover the whole stretch across the top of my screen, and complain about the charmed guy who followed me back from the little skirmish they just asked me to abandon.

After waiting patiently for all that, I quitly asked, "are you guys planning on doing this as a dungeon crawl, or just blast through it for favor?" Bunch of lvl 14s in a lvl 7 quest...you never know...They say "fast for favor". Perfect.

Whatever, so we get going, and I take off; charm here, fireball there, invisible past that group. The party's not taking much damage, I'm taking next to none, repairing whatever I do. To be fair the cleric did throw me one cure when I was between battles and already at 95% health - thanks. Despite this, I sense people are still getting frustrated that I'm running ahead as far and as fast as I am. I get to the last couple rooms where the boss is, rest of the party still not in sight. I rush in, a little crowd control, and nuke the boss just as the first straggler arrives. Quest completion in reasonable, although not stellar time.

I recall out, couple poeple b**** and moan a little bit, nothing too much, and they boot me from the party.

Lol, I expected a whole lot more from a guild with a name suggesting high competence who said they intended to do it quickly. I would have been done more quickly had I just asked them to open it for me on elite, break group, and reform their own party to do it without me. I got the impression that they would have liked that more as well.

Wow ..You just dont understand how important they think they are...what about the control factor...**** (Sir Ghoste) you act like you pay for your own account or something... I dont know about you..what if by chance you had a phone call and had to be away for awhile...the dungeon could of killed you after,, Ten ,Twenty,Thirty...minutes of you being away...you would have had to recall or something ....Man you put everyone at no risk..whats wrong with you..you better stay away from the harbor favor runs .....man what a zerker you are... Bad Wizard...

[Djimonte]

This is something I quite enjoy sorcs using charm it saes on mana saes on repair bills allows for more oppurtunity to explore the dungeons we are in I hae ran with some awesome casters and play accordingly my pally is armed with dispel magic and can remoe the charmed buff if needed. The only issue is all the fighter types used to zerg and get massie kill counts now as the casters are achieing higher lls well its turned the tables. hee. I also notice as I am a tank build with my pally I use cleae and greater cleae and intimidate this allows me to draw aggro away freom said toons that lack armorment and hp to handle the beatdown needless to say I don't achiee a high kill count. I do a good enough amount of damage to help the rest kill as well that kill count thingie needs to go in my opinion