The 30-Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Battle Rogue Build

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, the idea for this is an end-game level Rogue for DD/OL/Search, with decent UMD (really only enough for RR items and minor healing), but I want IMPRESSIVE Melee Capabilities, so I went 10Rog/2Rng/2Fgt to be able to have 30 Strength, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Improved Critical.

Please let me know what you think, constructive criticizm is welcome.

Update: 9/11/07 - Updated from Feedback provided: Fighter Levels @ 7 & 14, Skills revised, Feat Order Revised (ITWF @ 7, Toughness @ 9, IC:Slashing @ 12), AC Calc Revised, UMD Calc Revised
Update: 9/11/07 #2 - Added Future Planning for Level 20 Section
Update: 9/11/07 #3 - Added/Updated Enhancements, Added Way of the Mechanic
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The 30-Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Battle Rogue Build

Level 14 Human
10 Rogue / 2 Ranger / 2 Fighter

Stats:
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 1 (Human Str 1) + 1 (Fighter STR 1) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 16 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Dex 1) + 2 (Rogue Dex 2) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 11 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 8
----------------


Level Progression:
----------------
L1 - Rogue
L2-L3 - Ranger
L4-L6 - Rogue
L7 - Fighter
L8-L13 - Rogue
L14 - Fighter
----------------


Skill Points:
----------------
Level 1 - Balance 3, DD 4, Hide 4, Jump 4, MS 4, OL 4, Search 4, Spot 4, Tumble 1, UMD 4
Ranger Levels: DD 1, Hide 1, MS 1, OL 1, Search 1, UMD 0.5
Fighter Levels: DD 1, Search 1
Rogue Levels: DD, Search, UMD, Spot, OL, Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Jump

Use Rogue Skill points to keep all skills maxxed, and catch up skills that are behind in prioirty order as listed (DD, Search, UMD, Spot, Open Lock, Hide/Move Silent, Balance/Jump)
----------------


Final Skill Ranks:
----------------
Balance: 13
Disable Device: 17
Hide: 16
Jump: 13
Move Silently: 16
Open Lock: 16
Search: 17
Spot: 16
Tumble: 1
Use Magic Device: 16
----------------


Feats:
----------------
1) Nimble Fingers
1) Skill Focus: Disable Device
2C) Favored Enemy: Undead
3) Weapon Focus: Slashing
3C) Two-Weapon Fighting
4C) Evasion
6) Skill Focus: UMD
7B) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9) Toughness
12) Improved Critical: Slashing
12C) Improved Evasion
14B) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
----------------


Hit Points:
----------------
20 - Heroic Durability
60 - Rogue 10
20 - Ranger 2
20 - Fighter 2
70 - Con
16 - Toughness
5 - Fighter Toughness 1
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
231 Hit Points without False Life


Saves:
----------------
3 / 7 / 3 - Rogue 10 Base
3 / 3 / 0 - Ranger 2 Base
3 / 0 / 0 - Fighter 2 Base
5 / 8 / 3 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
22 / 26 / 14 - Saves w/ +4 Resistance & Greater Heroism


To-Hit:
----------------
11 - BAB
10 - Str
5 - Weapon
1 - Weapon Focus
4 - Greater Heroism
-2 - Two-Weapon Fighting
----------------
+29 To Hit
----------------
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
5 - Human Versatility 4 Attack Boost
2 - Recitation
----------------
+38 To Hit Buffed


Damage:
----------------
10 - Str
5 - Weapon
----------------
+15 Damage
----------------
1 - Rage Potion
5 - Human Versatility 4 Damage Boost
----------------
+21 Damage Buffed


AC in Two-Weapon Mode
----------------
10 - Base
10 - KDS
6 - Dex
5 - Protection +5 Item
2 - Ring of Balance
2 - Chaosguarde
----------------
34 AC (33 AC in +5 Mithral Breastplate or +5 Mithral Chain Shirt, or +7 Armor Item)
----------------
3 - Ranger's Barkskin
1 - Haste
2 - Recitation
5 - Human Versatility 4 AC Boost
4 - Paladin Aura
----------------
49 Buffed AC
----------------
7 - +5 Heavy Shield
----------------
57 AC Buffed w/ Shield
----------------
3 - Chattering Ring
----------------
60 AC with Raid Loot


Disable Device:
----------------
17 - Ranks
3 - SF: DD
2 - Nimble Fingers
2 - Rogue DD 2
2 - WotM
4 - INT
13 - DD Item
7 - +5 Thieves Tools
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
55 Disable


Search:
----------------
17 - Ranks
2 - Rogue Search 2
2 - WotM
4 - INT
13 - Search Item
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
43 Search


Open Lock:
----------------
16 - Ranks
2 - Nimble Fingers
2 - Rogue Open Lock 2
2 - WotM
8 - DEX
13 - OL Item
7 - +5 Thieves Tools
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
55 Open Lock


UMD:
----------------
16 - Ranks
3 - SF: UMD
-1 - CHA
3 - Golden Cartouche
4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
25 UMD
----------------
5 - Human Versatilty 4 Skill Boost
----------------
29 UMD
----------------
3 - +6 Cha Item
----------------
32 UMD - Raise Dead on a 4 or better


Enhancements:
----------------
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
----------------
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Future Planning:
----------------
Option 1 (Melee Option):
Level 15-16 - Fighter: Take Combat Expertise @ L15, Weapon Specialization/Improved Trip @ L16B
Level 17-20 - Rogue: Improved Feint @ L18, Crippling Strike @ L19C, Allows full Max of Rogue Skills

Option 3 (Ranged Option):
Level 15-18 - Ranger: Take Improved Critical: Ranged @ L15, Favored Enemy #2 @ 17C, Manyshot @ 18C, Weapon Focus: Ranged/Skill Focus: Search @ L18
Level 19-20 - Rogue: Max Rogue Skills, Iron Will @ L19

Option 4 (Rogue Skills Option):
Level 15-20 - Rogue. SF: Seach @ 15, Crippling Strike @ L17C, Iron Will @ L19, Max Rogue Skills


I think of all of these, I like Option #1. Picking up Improved Feint seems like a great addition to this build, and the decision between Improved Trip and Weapon Spec will be a hard one. It puts Crippling Strike off until L19, but I think the benefit of waiting until 17-20 for Rogue 11-14 will pay off in that it ensures that you can max out the maximum number of Rogue Skills. If you take Rogue 15&16, Fighter 17&18, Rogue 19&20 that will work too, but a few skills will be -1 or -2 from max... but that isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

[Roguewiz]

Rangers have flawless use of Cure Serious Wands ;)

Also, make sure to take Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III. It makes a world of a difference in regards to aggro.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Rangers have flawless use of Cure Serious Wands ;)

Also, make sure to take Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III. It makes a world of a difference in regards to aggro.

DOE!!!
Mondays.... all I can say

Fixed the UMD thing... I'll look into fitting RSB3

[Impaqt]

AC Calc is a Bit off. Clerics SoF Only goes to +5 and does NOT stack with a Protection Item.

No rogue in their right mind is gointo use a "Of Parrying" weapon instead of a Damaging weapon.

How do you propose wearing a +7 Armor Item AND Chaos Guards? I've never seen +7 on anything other than bracers.

a 35ish Standing AC is more Likely....

I'd put nore into UMD than Any other rogue skill.. Get it maxed.. Burning a HV to equipt and item sucks... Of course, I just noticed you fogot to add yoru SF: UMD to your UMD Calc..... 22-24 RR Items are out there.....

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

AC Calc is a Bit off. Clerics SoF Only goes to +5 and does NOT stack with a Protection Item.

No rogue in their right mind is gointo use a "Of Parrying" weapon instead of a Damaging weapon.

How do you propose wearing a +7 Armor Item AND Chaos Guards? I've never seen +7 on anything other than bracers.

a 35ish Standing AC is more Likely....

I'd put nore into UMD than Any other rogue skill.. Get it maxed.. Burning a HV to equipt and item sucks... Of course, I just noticed you fogot to add yoru SF: UMD to your UMD Calc..... 22-24 RR Items are out there.....

AC Calc Fixed. (SoF Fixed, Parrying removed)
UMD Calc Fixed.

I thought SoF gave a Shield Bonus, as well.... ergh... I'll have to check on that... that would increase the Shield bonus for sword-and-board more then... but I just checked, and you are right.... AC section overhauled

Again, it's monday, and the coffee isn't flowing fast enough.

As for the +7 AC Item... I could have sworn I had seen a +7 Armor Cloak somewhere or other.... so that may be a problem. Well, KDS is +1 AC over +7 Armor Item anyways

[Impaqt]

Recitation also does Not add to Damage.. Its To Hit, Saves and AC.

[Aeneas]

Not bad at all.

Some snafu's.

Will saves are kinda low, even fully buffed.

If you plan to TWF with 39 AC (you do realize how hard it will be to get the items you list right?) you're wasting your time. Get some Fearsome Studded leather, it will save your butt while giving you similar AC results (I have a set of +5 fearsome studded of stability on my twf rogue - 8 AC and fearsome plus a max dex similar to mith bp and mith chain {5}, and it is better than wearing either).

Lastly, don't bank your builds on raid loot - ever. I swear it curses their loot rolls.

[tc12]

Minor ponts first: I could be wrong, but I think if you took your first F level at 7th your BAB would be 6 and you could take Improved 2WF then (2 levels sooner). This has the additional benefit of your rogue level at 13th for more skill points, getting most skills to 16 instead of 15.

Also, I really don't think you need both nimble fingers and sf:disable. Unless it's just for the low-level help and you plan on swapping out nimble fingers later. I play a ranger/rogue (13/1) and drow rogue/fighter (11/3) and both do just fine with only nimble fingers.

On to the main question. I was thinking of a very similar build with a Dwarf. Sure you likely only get to 28 STR instead of 30, but I don't mind being limited to Axes so it seems the racial axe attack/dam enhancements make up for the diff in STR as well as going with one less feat (wf:slash) with equiv att/dam numbers. And of course all the obvious Dwarf stuff for melee considerations: increased HP potential in base Con plus Con/Tough enhancements, as well as Armor Mast for a couple of AC points. All of which is good for a 2WF rogue as it seems with high sneak damage it's almost impossible NOT to pull agro off all but the best tanks. (Even sword-n-board with subtle backstab III my Drow pulls agro off tanks more than I'd like.) DEX can still hit 26 as dex 3 is available with 10 rogue levels.

Sure Human gives more weapon flexibility, but not really seeing a benefit otherwise. Unless there's just not enough skill points -- I didn't check that out fully as I was planning to go UMD-less on my build. I have more modest equipment/tomes banked as a more casual gamer, so was looking at:

STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 1 ( Tome) + 1 (Fighter STR 1) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 16 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Rogue Dex 2) + 5 (Item) = 24 (+7)
CON: 15 + 1 (Dw CON 1) + 4 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 12 + 4 (Item) = 16 (+3)
WIS: 8 + 4 (Item) = 12 (+1)
CHA: 6

[More tomes and +6 items can be assumed for power-gamers of course.]

Progression w/ feats:

1st - rogue (skill focus: disable)
2nd - ranger (class: favored enemy: undead)
3rd - ranger (class: 2WF) / (sf:search)
4th - rogue (class: evasion)
5th - rogue
6th - rogue (toughness)
7th - fighter (F: improved 2WF)
8th - rogue
9th - rogue (???)
10th - rogue
11th - rogue
12th - rogue (improved crit)
13th - rogue (class: imp evasion)
14th - fighter (F: greater 2WF)

Apologies if this is seen as threadjacking, that's not the intent. Just my thoght on another way to meet the stated objective of a STR-based, Greater 2WF battle rogue, for comparison purposes. Thoughts?

TC

[Aeneas]

No to the above poster. Taking anything but rogue at first level is a huge mistake. Your skill points will suffer greatly to get your itwf one level sooner. Taking rogue first slows down your TWF progression, but you don't miss out on skills, you have an extra backstab dice at low levels, which is huge, and you'll eventually get those feats - the skill points you miss out on will never be recoverable.

IMHO, taking your first fighter level at whichever point you would have bab 8, is your best choice (10 Maybe?, i don't feel like doing the math). Getting improved critical early is a big step and improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion can wait.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

No to the above poster. Taking anything but rogue at first level is a huge mistake. Your skill points will suffer greatly to get your itwf one level sooner. Taking rogue first slows down your TWF progression, but you don't miss out on skills, you have an extra backstab dice at low levels, which is huge, and you'll eventually get those feats - the skill points you miss out on will never be recoverable.

IMHO, taking your first fighter level at whichever point you would have bab 8, is your best choice (9 Maybe, don't feel like doing the math). Getting improved critical early is a big step and improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion can wait.

I think he was suggesting taking Fighter @ L7 & L14, not Fighter @ 1.
The idea was Fighter @ L7 allows ITWF at L7 with the Fighter Bonus Feat...

I'll have to check out the progression, but that might work.

As for Dwarf... Yes, that is a possibility, and the +4 vs Spells helps with the weak Will Save... I don't like how low that is, even counting on +6 Wis Item, GH, and +4 Resistance... but I don't see much other way around that short of slashing Paladin, but then I loose the free TWF for Ranger 2....

And yes, the plan would definately be to take Undead as FE for this build.


Other thoughts?

[Aeneas]

Gotcha, i misread that.



....carry on. :D

[Turial]

There is also the option of taking an upgraded emerald claw necklace instead of the fearsome armor. The mod 5 upgrade will give you fearsome and let you keep the KDS.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, Updated the base build post to incorporate some of the suggestions provided.

Fighter Level taken at L7 & L14 - This allows ITWF @ 7, then Toughness moves to L9, and IC: Slash moves to L12.

AC Calc revised - Chattering Ring & Seal of the Earth removed. Invaders Ring placed into build. Yes, I know Fearsome Armor will be the goal, but let me at least try to give it some potential AC :cool:

Skill Points Revised: With the move of Fighter to 7, most other skills revise from 15 to 16 @ L14. I also realized I had one point too many somewhere in the original build, so Jump and Balance end up at 13 each (change it up/down in the split to your preference)

UMD Looks a bit better now... still not where I want it, but I can't see dropping points from anywhere else to help Cha, when the Will save sucks so bad too. But I don't see what I can really do about it.


------------------------

Now, I haven't checked out the "How high do I need my XXX Rogue Skill" post so see if the Rogue DD/Search are high enough to warrant removing Nimble Fingers to free up a Feat for maybe Bullheaded or something else to shore up the Will Save (or maybe something else, I dunno)... I'll take a look at that and see where it stands up. This build purpously is avoiding Way of the Mechanic, as the Enhancements really need to focus on Melee first, and Rogue Skills 2nd.

Yes, I did think about Dwarf for this as well, but that takes another hit to UMD... but the +4 vs. Spells would help... I will look at that a little further later today as an option, but I am kinda in love with the idea of a 30 Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue... there is something about that line that grabs my fancy... I dunno! ;)

[Aeneas]

To be honest, if you take a look at the risia forums, you'll see that there are a couple new named items which will give you fearsome. The 3rd tier emerald claw amulet and a new named helmet. So you may be actually better off finding a nice set of mith chain with heavy fort or something to that effect.

*not positive but i think one of the shield may give fearsome as well

[tc12]

Now, I haven't checked out the "How high do I need my XXX Rogue Skill" post so see if the Rogue DD/Search are high enough to warrant removing Nimble Fingers [...] This build purpously is avoiding Way of the Mechanic, as the Enhancements really need to focus on Melee first, and Rogue Skills 2nd.


Well I suggest you re-evaluate WotM a bit. Any non-elf/drow is behind a bit in that they don't have the racial search/spot enhancements to stack with the rogue search/spot enhancements for cheaper overall bumping of those skills. And perhaps you feel more enh constrained than feat constrained, but WotM if more cost-effective than you might realize, and helps go with my suggestion in dropping nimble fingers.

I think people see the prereq's are a couple things they'd NOT spend for otherwise, and think it's a waste of points. But it bumps the 3 core rogue skils -- spot/search/disable -- more cheaply than you could otherwise, with nice side benefits to bumping some secondary stuff.

Assume minimally on the rogue side you'd want Search III, Spot III, Disable II and skill boost II. That's 18 points, for a result of well +3 spot, +3 search and +2 disable of course. Instead spend *17* points WotM and its prereqs, plus rogue spot I / search I. Now you have the same +3 spot & search, but +4 disable and +4 open. One skill point less with a +2 disable / +4 open net gain for the result.

Really for 17 points, how can you not afford that? If you stay Human, you could keep sf:disable but drop nimble fingers for perhaps Iron Will as that is one of your few potential weaknesses.

Lastly it's not just more cost-effective initially. What if you find you need to further improve your search or spot? Moving either from your effective +3 up to +4 would cost 4 enh points each as Rogue skill IV's, but only 2 points each with WotM as it'd only be Rogue skill II's.



Yes, I did think about Dwarf for this as well, but [...] I am kinda in love with the idea of a 30 Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue... there is something about that line that grabs my fancy... I dunno! ;)

I think Human makes for a great build here too, and wouldn't have mentioned Dwarf if I hadn't been thinking of the Dwarven variant of your build already. And as Human, I think your enhancements may be less constrained than needing the axe attack/damage stuff if you went Dwarf, if so that's another nudge toward WotM. :)

Good luck, hope I've helped a little in your tuning efforts.

TC

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I looked back over it, and I was able to redo the Enhancements and pickup WotM afterall. Now, looking at the numbers, I think my OL is so overpowerfully high, I might drop some Ranks from that and put them into Jump! :cool:

But I think the DD at 55 and Search at 43 is not too shabby. I wish I could get that Search up a little higher... but I don't know if SF: Search is really worth it.... When I get around to building and running this guy, I might try it.

And I know the Will Save really sucks, but short of dropping SF:UMD for Iron Will, I don't know what else can be done... the other stats are too important to change for just the Will Save.

[Lifespawn]

drop nimble and pick up sf search.Drop toughness you won't miss the22 hp's as much as the +2 will saves from bullheaded.Pick toughness back up at lvl 15 when you go more fighter lvls so you can take more than just 1 enhancment twords it.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Hrm... you do have a point about the Toughness part...

I also realized one other problem with the build... .with the long-term idea of going CE then Improved Feint... this has 11 INT + 1 Tome, which means no CE without getting a +2 INT Tome.... crud. I guess I could drop CON to 11 to put 1 into INT and 1 into CHA (then get a CHA +1 Tome to give +1 UMD)

-or-

If I was willing to shoot for a 28-STR Rogue, I could drop starting STR to 16, add +1 INT, +2 WIS with the 3 points... this would also free up Human Str 1 (4AP) to go where I want... but I really like the idea of 30-Str 2WF... ****.

[CSFurious]

if you use a 10rogue/4fighter build, all your dreams will come true:D

you might not be as strong as you want to be, but you can still be strong enough

my little drow with this build already has 96 hp's at level 7 & a 19 str with a +3 item

your int problems will be solved & you can still be a strong 2-weapon fighter

[Lifespawn]

i'd shoot for the 28 str instead of the 30 think rage pots :)

Lets u get more in int i'd bring it to 13 add int tome for 14 and put the rest in con or wil 2 str isn't gonna kill the build but the better int and con or will could save your life.

On another note on the toughness if you drop the ranger lvls and get 2 more fighter and use umd for healing you can pick up weapon spec basically making up for the loss of 2 str and i'm not sure but 4 lvls of fighter might open up a second enhancment for toughness which would actually be worth it then.

So keep the toughness drop nimble or disable and pick up twf there end up with 34 more hp and the same damage as a 30 str build.

loss is ofcourse no fail on wands but at higher lvls you should have the umd to use them anyway.

[MrCow]

Will saves are kinda low, even fully buffed.

Any build that triple classes with a class or two using 2 levels each always finds issues with saves. Those 4 levels of ranger and fighter add nothing to the will save (on top of the rogue levels contributing little). That is just something that this build will have to live with sadly.

[Aeneas]

Don't forget that jump is capped at 40 and the spell from a high level caster gives you 30. with 30 str you already have 10, so if i were you, i'd invest NOTHING in jump.

[Roguewiz]

Any build that triple classes with a class or two using 2 levels each always finds issues with saves. Those 4 levels of ranger and fighter add nothing to the will save (on top of the rogue levels contributing little). That is just something that this build will have to live with sadly.

I am going to have to disagree with you. Triple classing screws up 1 save, maybe 2, however for the most part, they remain close to the final base saves for pure classes.

base saves w/o buffs:
14 Cleric = 9 / 4 / 9
14 Fighter = 9 / 4 / 4
14 Ranger = 9 / 9 / 4
14 Rogue = 4 / 9 / 4
14 Wizard = 4 / 4 / 9

His build
9 / 10 / 3

So honestly speaking, his will saves aren't much worse than a pure build NON-caster. When it all comes down to it, it really depends on what classes you take.

Another example:
0 / 0 / 2 1 Wizard
0 / 2 / 0 1 Rogue
8 / 4 / 4 12 Fighter
8 / 6 / 6

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

i'd shoot for the 28 str instead of the 30 think rage pots :)

Lets u get more in int i'd bring it to 13 add int tome for 14 and put the rest in con or wil 2 str isn't gonna kill the build but the better int and con or will could save your life.

On another note on the toughness if you drop the ranger lvls and get 2 more fighter and use umd for healing you can pick up weapon spec basically making up for the loss of 2 str and i'm not sure but 4 lvls of fighter might open up a second enhancment for toughness which would actually be worth it then.

So keep the toughness drop nimble or disable and pick up twf there end up with 34 more hp and the same damage as a 30 str build.

loss is ofcourse no fail on wands but at higher lvls you should have the umd to use them anyway.

Question: What do I need to start at 13 INT for? I have the skill points to end this build with 17 Search & Disable, and 16 UMD, Spot, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, and 13 Jump & Balance. I don't see what other skill I would really need to max out with this build. And as others have said, I don't need the points in Jump at all from one persepctive, and if you take the Invaders Ring with +13 Balance, I don't need the Balance either, so I could put 13 ranks into 2 other skills.

Dropping to 16 STR would allow +2 Con, +1 Wis, which would give +14 Hit Points, but no increase to Will Save without a Tome, for a +1 Will Save... not that big of a difference... I might be better off finding a way to take Pal 2 instead of Rng 2 and moving a point or two into Cha instead of Wis, and let Diving Grace help make up for the lower saves.

Yes, Fighter 4 does offer Weapon Spec as an option, but while that is the same damage as 30 STR, it is -1 to hit. But it is an option... but the Will Save would still suck just as bad.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Any build that triple classes with a class or two using 2 levels each always finds issues with saves. Those 4 levels of ranger and fighter add nothing to the will save (on top of the rogue levels contributing little). That is just something that this build will have to live with sadly.

You have to remember that 6 of the 9 classes get 1 strong and 2 weak saves. Ranger/Cleric/Bard's get 2 strong and 1 weak.

Level 14 Base Saves:
-----------------------
1 Strong Classes
Fighter: 9/4/4
Paladin: 9/4/4
Barbarian: 9/4/4
Rogue: 4/9/4
Sorc: 4/4/9
Wizard: 4/4/9

2 Strong Classes
Ranger: 9/9/4
Cleric: 9/4/9
Bard: 4/9/9
-----------------------

So given that, the base saves on this build of 9/10/3 are really not that bad. Overall it is +1 Reflex and -1 Will from a pure 14 Ranger!

[Roguewiz]

You have to remember that 6 of the 9 classes get 1 strong and 2 weak saves. Ranger/Cleric/Bard's get 2 strong and 1 weak.

Level 14 Base Saves:
-----------------------
1 Strong Classes
Fighter: 9/4/4
Paladin: 9/4/4
Barbarian: 9/4/4
Rogue: 4/9/4
Sorc: 4/4/9
Wizard: 4/4/9

2 Strong Classes
Ranger: 9/9/4
Cleric: 9/4/9
Bard: 4/9/9
-----------------------

So given that, the base saves on this build of 9/10/3 are really not that bad. Overall it is +1 Reflex and -1 Will from a pure 14 Ranger!

Also, Monks will be 2 / 2 / 2 (3 strong!)

[Grenfell]

I don't get the 2 ranger levels here. Why not Paladin instead? That gives you Divine Grace -- even with 8 base Cha, you can easily hit 14 or +2 across the board -- which covers all those weak saves, etc. far better than burning feats on Iron Will, etc.

/gren

[Jaysensen]

Don't forget that jump is capped at 40 and the spell from a high level caster gives you 30. with 30 str you already have 10, so if i were you, i'd invest NOTHING in jump.

Aeneas, do you remember Minstral/Philippe? He had a buffed jump of 87 or something ********. Anyway, according to him, Jump gives diminishing returns but doesnt cap.

[kendo]

Aeneas, do you remember Minstral/Philippe? He had a buffed jump of 87 or something ********. Anyway, according to him, Jump gives diminishing returns but doesnt cap.

it has been specifically stated by the devs that jump now caps at 40. didn't used to, but does now

[Lifespawn]

the better int makes up for dropping nimble fingers somewhat and shores up your search which is lacking.

Is the -1 to hit that big of a deal? and getting more hp's not a big deal?

More skillpoints i'd actually fill up on diplomacy or bluff to help you lose aggro and gain sneak attacks better.

Balance useless? because of an item in game nah keep it up and with the dex bonuses you have and get you don't need the ring and free that up for something else.


Depending on items is a pet peve of mine i just find it so constricting, i know you can depend on the ring because it's a sure thing but something like say hvy fort on a ring could be more usefull if you happen to come across one.

[nibel]

Hit Points:
----------------
20 - Heroic Durability
60 - Rogue 10
20 - Ranger 2
20 - Fighter 2
70 - Con
16 - Toughness
5 - Fighter Toughness 1
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
231 Hit Points without False Life

Ranger HD is d8, so it give you 16 HP, not 20.

[lizardo666]

Had less str - Ranger 2, Fighter 2, Rogue rest

Once I opened 32pt builds I made a human rogue
Str:18 (now 28)
Dex:16 (now 26)
Con:16 (now 22)
8
8
8

no trap skills - good OL, wicked hide/move
diced off the ranger levels - so I could have L4 fighter enh

Took for feats:

Stunning Blow
Exotic: Khopesh
Focus: UMD
Focus: Slash
Focus: Blunt
Imp Crit Slash
Greater 2 Wep Fighting

Weps: +4 Khopesh Backstabbing (+4/+6)
+2 Light Mace Weighted +5% (adds 10 to stun DC)

Enh:

Fighter Str, Human Str, Human Con
Rogue Dex (x3)
Fighter Trip
Fighter Stun (x2)
Human Skill Boost IV (for UMD/Haggle mainly)
Subtle Backstabbing II
+2/+6 to sneak attacks

and well .... way of the assassin, may respec at mod5
when they change the racial enh ...

love the boost to confirm crits, but I almost always forget its there (due to the poison element not worth jack)
Lemme sneak attack a caster 4 times to maybe land it .. oops they're already dead ....

UMD 28ish boosted (cartouche , splendor, human boost)
Hide and move 30+ (accomplice cloak)
Stun DC 30 (32 rage/ divine power)

And YES that is a huge part of my build Divine Power
Have 4 clickies = 14 or so uses per rest

There are very few people that can keep up with my damage, stun ability, and I can stealth up to almost any mob and dispach it.

I do have a lesser DPS wep set I use: (hence the blunt focus)

+1 Adamatine Warhammer +5% weighted
+1 Cursespewer Light Mace of Vertigo +4

Any questions about stuff I missed, or further explaination, write a reply.

Kyoukan the Master Assassin
Argonnessen