Need Forum Aid for my new build

[smodge13]

Hi all,
i have decided to finally delete my Fighter Cadian and reroll him and try to make a succesful defensive tank, this is going to be my 5th attempt at one the build never seems to work out for some reason, always i'm missing something or doing something wrong, so this time i decided to post on the forums so those who are good at making fighters could help me, unfortunately no one responded in class forums so maybe i will get a bit more aid from my home server, anyway here is my build idea, comments/suggestions are very welcome.


Little Wombat
Dwarf
Fighter 12/Paladin 2

Stats (assuming +5 item and +1 tome)

Str 28 (base 16, +5 item, +1 tome, +3 enhancement +3 level up)
Dex 20 (base 14, +5 item, +1 tome)
Con 24 (base 16, +5 item, +1 tome, +2 Enhancement)
Int 12 (+1 tome)
Wis 8
Cha 12

Hp
+140 (Base Fighter)
+20 (Base start)
+98 (24 Con)
+51 (Toughness x 3)
+ 60 (Enhancements)
+30 (Greater False Life)

Total: 399

AC
+10 Base
+18 MFP + Armour mastery II
+1 Dodge
+5 CE
+5 Protection
+9 Mithral Tower Shield (Fighters Tower Shield Mastery 2)
+2 Invaders Ring


Total: 50

ToHit (with a slasher)
+14 BaB
+9 Str
+1 WF
+2 Enhancement
-2 Tower Shield
Total: +24, +19 with CE (a +5 weapon will help this get higher.)

Feats
1. Toughness
1b. Dodge
2b. CE
3. Toughness
4b. WF: Slash
6. Toughness
6b. Mobility
8b. Imp Crit: Slash
9. Spring Attack
10b. Whirlwind Attack
12. Improved Shield Mastery
12b. Shield mastery

Edit: Changes made,
Dropped alot of con and boosted str.
dropped 2 toughness and GWF and quickdraw, picked up mobility/spring attack/whirlwind attack
dropped 2 levels of fighter and picked up 2 levels of paladin (for better saves)

[Sojourner]

**** - had a nice big post here, then accidentally lost it all, so forgive me if I'm a bit brief in some of my retyped statements.

You may want to cross-post to fighters boards, they probably are better at this.

Class
You may want to drop 2 or 3 levels of fighter for some pally levels. You can lose some of the feats without worry, and the extra AC from the pally aura will be nice.

Stats
Use your three level-ups for STR instead of CON. You'll get much more benefit out of the +2 To-Hit and +2 Damage instead of 28 HPs.

Feats
Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery are both very good feats for a tank. If the mobs are able to get through your AC, those feats (and the dwarven enhancements) can give you a nice DR to soak up a portion of the damage that does get through.

Toughness is rarely needed more than once, and even then only if you're taking the enhancements for it. You can probably drop all but one of them. And even with the CON change also you should end up around 380 HP, which should be fine.

I'd probably swap out Quickdraw for Improved Shield Bash. That way if you do have to go into turtle mode, you can at least dish out a little bit of damage without losing your AC.

Enhancements
Not listed, so not much I can recommend other than what has been mentioned already -
* Dwarven toughness
* Fighter toughness
* Pally Aura
* Armor Mastery
* Tower Shield Mastery
* Shield Mastery

Skills
Intimidate and Balance.


.

[Vhlad]

Personally, I'd never make a fighter with so low str. Add combat expertise to that, and your to-hit will be rather bad. How will you maintain aggro? Intimidate? If you want a pure intimidate tank build, a batman kind of thing works better.

Anyway,




Stats
Use your three level-ups for STR instead of CON. You'll get much more benefit out of the +2 To-Hit and +2 Damage instead of 28 HPs.
Spending level up points on str when you start with only 14 base is a waste.

ToHit (with an axe)
+14 BaB
+6 Str
+2 WF/GWF
+2 Enhancement
+4 greater hero
-5 combat expertise
-2 tower shield
+7 axe (+5 of righteousness or a +3 greater bane)

Looking at 28 to hit. Add 1 more if you use battle coin or the bracers.
I guess it is OK, but combat expertise is pretty annoying IMO. It shuts off every time you use a scroll, clicky, etc.

I'd also rather make a more DPS oriented tank with 32 str and weapon spec + greater weapon spec instead of quickdraw / shield mastery.

[RandomToon]

Before I give you any advice, how high of each tome are you willing to invest in to get this guy started? If you are willing to invest in a +1 INT Tome, you can free up a build point by starting with INT 12. In fact, I think you HAVE to do this because unless I am miscounting, you are 33 point build...

Also, how are you getting 4 from the invaders ring? Stability is a defelction bonus, and doesn't stack with a prot 5 item. And why is the tower shield only +7 and not +9? Ultimately, same AC but I haven't looked that closely.

You also neglected to post any skills - do you plan to try for intimidate or UMD at all? Are you sure you want pure fighter, and not a couple of levels of another class - say, rogue, ranger, or paladin?

Are you decided on dwarf? Would another race be viable? (not to say I think another would be better, just want to know what I have to work with)

Am I correct in assuming that you would like a build with moderate damage, high health, high survivabilty, but heavy group dependance?

[Vhlad]

Am I correct in assuming that you would like a build with moderate damage, high health, high survivabilty, but heavy group dependance?

And low saving throws.

[Scarsgaard]

Am I correct in assuming that you would like a build with moderate damage, high health, high survivabilty, but heavy group dependance?


Can you say Sponge? I knew you could:D

Seriously, look into some DPS... while I like Tanks with tons of HPs (allows the healer to focus more on the squishies)... they must be able to damage things as well, otherwise they are nothing more than a door stop:eek:

[Sojourner]

Can you say Sponge? I knew you could:D

Seriously, look into some DPS... while I like Tanks with tons of HPs (allows the healer to focus more on the squishies)... they must be able to damage things as well, otherwise they are nothing more than a door stop:eek:


Not if it is a proper intimitank build. Get the AC up into the high 50's low 60's after buffs, and between the mobs missing 19 times out of 20 and a good DR from shield blocking, the build will take almost zero damage.

Intimitank builds are actually one of the least mana-spongiest builds of all.

We've run the numbers in other threads, and a high-AC intimitank will be at least as effective in a party as a high DPS barbarian. Perhaps more so if the party knows how to work with his tactics.

It isn't my style either - I'd rather run and kill. And in those other threads I started by arguing heavily against intimitanks. But after looking at the builds and numbers, they do turn out to be a very viable option. I wouldn't bash the OP trying to build one.

The only real strike against them is they are loot dependent to become nearly invulnerable at end-game levels. +5 Mithril Fullplate, +5 Mithril Tower Shield, +5 Protection Item, Chattering Ring, Chaosguards, etc.



You could probably make the case to drop the starting CON to 18 and use the extra points to bump strength by a few more. But, that is a far cry from "mana sponge" and "group dependent".


.

[BUpcott]

<shortened for no reason>

What do you know you run with Judo ;)



That aside I think I would also use level up points for STR rather than CON. You are still going to be 400+ HP and like Sojourner said if played right your DMG taken won't be as high.

[loki523]

I agree that if you're going for an intimidate build, batmans are the way to go. Best I've ever seen is Bushidoe. He is 8 fighter/3 pally/3 rogue.

I also know (and Bushidoe will tell you this as well) in turtle mode you can't hit anything. For this reason, I have always disliked intimidate builds. They are fun to be around and EXTREMELY useful if you're playing a rogue but, IMO, a fighter that can't damage anything = waste of a party spot.

In this game I have always been convinced (and still am) that the best defense is a good offense. Even the squishiest of toons is COMPLETELY immune to damage from dead mobs (unless the mob gets off an acid arrow or burning blood first but you get my meaning...). 99% of the time, it is more useful for a fighter to kill mobs quickly than just stand there and suck up aggro (the 1% of the time I'm thinking about is the Reaver and this is ONLY because you have to stand around and wait before you can kill him due to an odd and rare game mechanic).

Also, anyone who tells you toughness is a wasted feat is wrong. IMO the best fighter build (not barb, batman, etc. but primarily fighter) in the game presently is a Dwarf 13 fighter/1 pally. Take toughness EVERY time you get a non fighter feat and max your toughness enhancements. NEVER go 14 fighter as the wand healing by itself is worth more than a feat let alone the +1 AC/+1 saves you get from a pally level.

I'm not a big fan of CE anymore. It used to be great when the AC it achieved made you practically immune to mobs. It's handy to have on a batman that already needs to have points in INT. On a fighter, it's a waste. Not only does it GREATLY reduce your fighting effectiveness at high levels but putting points in INT is a waste. They are better spent on STR/CON/DEX.

I actually am working on a build focused somewhat on AC currently. It's a Dwarf 13 Fighter/1 Pally starting with 16 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON. By taking every possible toughness feat, Dwarven CON 2, and maxing toughness enhancements, his hp will be well into the 400's. AC should be able to get to a potentially decent level:

10 Base
+7 (+5 Heavy Steel Shield)
+13 (+5 Mithril Full Plate)
+8 (Dex - 18 base + 6 item + 2 tome = 26. Fighter Armor Mastery II/Dwarf Mastery III)
+1 (Dodge Feat)
+2 (Chaosgarde)
+5 (Deflection)
+3 (Chattering Ring)
+3 (Barkskin Potions)
+1 (Pally level)

= 53 self buffed

Recitation can add another 2 and so can barkskin cast from a ranger for a total of 57. Not a turtle but EXTREMELY effective defensively when combined with high hp.

Most importantly, with Dwarven Axe and Dwarven Axe enhancements, this guy can hit stuff and hurt it badly with a possible 32 STR at level 14 (Base 16 + 3 levels + 3 enhancement +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Rage pot).

Bottom line is this:

99% of the time I am in favor of straight up min/max builds. AC builds are the exception to me. First, at high levels, AC is less effective than ever before and to get it truly maxed you obliterate your fighting skill (also you will rely on boosts...not good). Second, AC has not been scaling properly with monster to-hit numbers. If high end mobs start getting a +10, +15 maybe +20 to hit during the next few level cap increases, do you really think an AC build has room to increase their AC by 10-20. They sure don't. Lastly, If the only thing you have going for you is AC, you're a waste of space in a party (the exception, as noted above, coming ONLY when you are properly paired with a decent, strength based rogue who can achieve ridiculous DPS numbers with someone around to intimidate stuff and take a beating...then again, 2 properly built damage tanks will probably smoke a rogue/intimidate combo in DPS...).

[Vhlad]

That aside I think I would also use level up points for STR rather than CON.....

ahhh! no!! /dies in the face of non-optimal stat allocation

Don't put lvl up points into STR rather than CON if you are starting with:

Str base 14
Con base 20

If you want more str, it is more point efficient to increase str at creation, rather than at level up with those starting stats.

Compare: You put lvl up points into str with those base stats, you get:
str 14 + 3
con 20

OOORRRRR !!!!asfdf ! *explodes*

drop con by 2 at creation (gives you 6 points). Then increase str by 2 at creation (costs 4 points), then use lvl up points as:
str 16 +1
con 18 +2

You end up with the same stats, except you save 2 points at creation.

I'm not saying str 17 & con 20 is the way to go, im just clarifying how better to reach that if you decide to go that way.

[RandomToon]

Meh, I decided I didn't like that build I put up...

[sigtrent]

I think you are going overboard on the hit points. I run with 240 on my main and while its not as much as I like, I get by with that. I think 300-350 is the tanking sweet spot so long as you run full fortification. The only exception would be if you run in very small parties or without any healing available. some barbarians run in the 400+ zone but that is because they are so easy to hit they may actualy need to soak that much.

You could use some of those toughness feats for better and more interesting choices. You could drop con by two points and take another score up to a decent level. Dex actualy looks pretty good, thats what I recomend for mithral dwarven tanks.

AC looks pretty good but you have no way to reliably pull agro for the party and thus put all that AC to use. And if you arn't actualy tanking and arnt doing much damage, you arn't doing the party much good.

You need to either plan to invest in intimidate, or find a way to get your attack value up to a reasonable level. (+25 is probably decent) As it stands you either have to fight without CE to get agro, or turn it on and rarely get attacked. Either way it is a waste. I think it would be easier for you to invest in intimidate. You could take con to 18 and charisma to 12 and then drop a toughness feat to get skill focus intimidate or bullheaded, and that would get you in striking distance of a good intimidate score without much sacrifice. (32 hp)

[Vhlad]

I agree with loki

And I wont post any build suggestions until I have a better idea of what exactly the OP is looking for.


QUESTION: what is the min level required to eat a +2 tome? (for example, the +2 tomes that were dropping during the last loot weekend).

[Scarsgaard]

I agree with loki

And I wont post any build suggestions until I have a better idea of what exactly the OP is looking for.


QUESTION: what is the min level required to eat a +2 tome? (for example, the +2 tomes that were dropping during the last loot weekend).

no min lvl:D

[Brai]

I think you are going overboard on the hit points. I run with 240 on my main and while its not as much as I like, I get by with that. I think 300-350 is the tanking sweet spot so long as you run full fortification. The only exception would be if you run in very small parties or without any healing available. some barbarians run in the 400+ zone but that is because they are so easy to hit they may actualy need to soak that much.

(32 hp)

I take exception to this! One of my fighters Torthic is a beast.

Dwarf 1PAL/13FTR 404 HP
STR 31: 21 base +1 Tome +6 Item +3 Feat
DEX 22: 15 base +1 Tome +6 Item
CON 24: 16 base +1 Tome +5 Item +2 Feat
INT 8
WIS 14: 10 base +4 Item
CHA 6


42 AC TWF 10 base +6 Dex + 13 Armor +3 Natural Armor(Seal of the Earth) +5 Deflection (Cloak) +2 Dodge (Chaos Guard) +1 Misc(PAL Aura) +2 Feat.

50 AC with a tower (9 Sheild -1 Feat)

and of course room to grow still.

Plus he's got +28 to hit TWF both hands.

!!ALL NON BUFFED!!

[RandomToon]

Ok, here is try number two. Do your own math for final numbers based the equipment you want. I am operating under the assumption that you want to play a pure fighter, you want it to be close to what you posted due to style of play, you have a +1 INT tome by the time you want to buy Combat Expertise, and you want to play a dwarf. If you are willing to go 2 levels of rogu for evasion, and maybe a couple levels of paladin, there are some great build out there for that. But, here is this one - will need some feedback of course. Also, I would double check to make sure I didn't get the math wrong ;)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Wombat (Aspect Style)
Level 14 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(14 Fighter)
Hit Points: 362
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 6
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 15 16
Constitution 18 21
Intelligence 12 13
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Con, Dex, and Str Tome whenever.

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 4 14
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 4 5
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 2
Intimidate 2 15
Jump 7 22
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 5
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave

Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV



The Advantages this gives you over what you posted:

1. You can still have over 400 health.

2. You can hit things better. With GH and a +5 slasher, you are +26 to hit with CE or PA turned on - and that is not using things like battle coin or factoring Rage pots. You can drop a toughness feat for GWF if you like, and still have over 400 health.

3. You deal damage better. With PA and Cleave/Great Cleave you can crit for larger numbers thanks to Imp Crit and Greater Spec. Invest in some nice scimitars and falchions. SoS is great here, especially for situations when AC is less effective. You will never match a barb for pure melee killing power, but that isn't the point here...

4. You can crowd control. Aside from using Cleave/Great Cleave to use damage for crowd control, the addition of Imp Trip, Stunning Blow, and Intimidate only help you. Jump is nice for getting at mobs you need to trip/stun, but with a tower shield is only so-so effective.

5. Good AC. Here is the breakdown:

10 Base
13 +5 Mithral FP
5 Dex
9 +5 Mithral Tower
5 +5 Prot Item
2 Natural Armor from Invaders! ring
1 Dodge
2 Chaosgarde
5 Combat Expertise
52 Total (reliably) Add +3 if you can score a Chattering Ring, plus things that can change like ranger buffs, parrying scimitar, pally next to you, etc.

The big flaws here?

1. Saves - they are pretty weak, although I included the dwarven line to help some, you are going to need to find ways to protect yourself from elemental damage (you are sacrificing a lot of resist item slots for stats and ac, after all) and holds/dance/etc. If I missed an Enhancement I need, then pull the points you need out of here.

2. It will require a lot of buffs, which can be annoying in pugs. I would only really play this character in a dedicated group, or some people that know how to buff. Also much more vulnerable when dispelled.

3. It uses trip, but also slashing. Most weighted items are bludgeon, so you might want to consider doing Focus/Spec for bludgeon if you want. Also good for smiting weapons. Truth be told, I only went slashing because of crit range and because that is what you put down initially. Feel free to change it if you want ;)

So, I feel like I am missing something with this build...not sure what it is...

Oh yeah, a disclaimer! This is by no means a "great" build. It is OK, and is something that I wouldn't mind playing myself. It should serve you well, but if it doesn't - you can always reroll again ;)

[smodge13]

thanks guys, your suggestions are really helpful, i did initially put this on the fighter boards and got no response >.>, hence i came here, what i'm after is a defensive focused fighter, something more on the survivable side of things.
always when i have made them i somewhere along the way go bad and they stop being useful.
i like the idea of intimidate/paladin levels, and i can also see i need more str (at least 25)
i'll have a think about it today and play around with a chargen program.

[Berryman]

honestly bro theres gadda be a better feat out there than Improve shield mastery. I had it and it didn't add that much more. so i dumped it.

[Sojourner]

Intimitank not my style of play, but I do have to say that it rocks when run by someone with the temperament to do it.

Shield Mastery feats can get your DR up to 24 if I have everything added right:
2 Base
7 BaB/2
6 Madstone Shield
3 Sheild Mastery
3 Imp shield Mastery
3 Dwaf Shield Mastery III
---
24

Add that on top of an AC of 60 and a heavy fortification item, and you are pretty much safe and snug.

Add on top of that an intimidate that guarantees no one in the party except you is taking aggro, and you've got a cleric in the party with nothing to do except toss offensive spells.

With everyone else in the party getting flanking and sneak attacks on every attack because of the intimidation, the change in DPS for the party as a whole really isn't noticeable.

It take a certain play style to pull off running in a room and then just shield blocking. To my mind, much more fun to run in and start swinging. But, if you get good intimidator in your party, the cleric will definitely notice it. Although, it is quite possible that no one except the the cleric will notice it since he's the one watching the health bars.

[RandomToon]

Intimitank not my style of play, but I do have to say that it rocks when run by someone with the temperament to do it.

Shield Mastery feats can get your DR up to 24 if I have everything added right:
2 Base
7 BaB/2
6 Madstone Shield
3 Sheild Mastery
3 Imp shield Mastery
3 Dwaf Shield Mastery III
---
24

Add that on top of an AC of 60 and a heavy fortification item, and you are pretty much safe and snug.

Add on top of that an intimidate that guarantees no one in the party except you is taking aggro, and you've got a cleric in the party with nothing to do except toss offensive spells.

With everyone else in the party getting flanking and sneak attacks on every attack because of the intimidation, the change in DPS for the party as a whole really isn't noticeable.

It take a certain play style to pull off running in a room and then just shield blocking. To my mind, much more fun to run in and start swinging. But, if you get good intimidator in your party, the cleric will definitely notice it. Although, it is quite possible that no one except the the cleric will notice it since he's the one watching the health bars.

For anyone who thought my build sucked, here is my further track record of terrible fighter builds.

Your talk of DR while shield blocking got me thinking of a build I once devised when I first started to play. Was a shield blocking character, and if it were alive today would have that high DR shown. The only difference with my build was that it also had the resistance feat for saves, and an AC of about 12...

The general theory was to get as many items that hurt people for attacking you (bramble casters, elemental guard item, fireshield, etc.) and just use DR from your shield blocking and resist items and laugh as mobs beat themselves to death against you, then just run past archers. It was a funny idea to me to have a dwarf named "Nelson" because I would just sit there thinking to myself "quit hittin' yourself, quit hittin' yourself" everytime a mob died.

It worked right up until level 2 when I got tripped, and I realized how stupid it was. Ah...thanks for the memory :)