Improved Feint question

[bbqzor]

I cant seem to find this anywhere, and havent gotten a reply from the people Ive asked. So trying a post here!

Basically, the in game description, and the various ones Ive seen in posts, give me a general idea of how it works. But I would like a very precise specific one.

I have a good grasp on diplomacy and intimidate. From reading, I have a feel for how bluff would work. What I am curious is, how improved feint relates in there.

Is it pbae around you, or cone ae in front? Is the range the same as the diplomacy/intimidate radius? Does it act like multiple bluff, or like diplomacy? Is it on the same timer as any of the rest? Does it cast faster or reset quicker or otherwise take less time to employ or can it be employed more frequently? Is it mob type restricted like diplomacy/intimidate, or can it work on mindless creatures?

I am less interested in the 'value' of this ability so much as exactly what it does. But obviously, if the effect is totally or partially duplicated elsewhere thats relevant. From the sound of it, this ability lies somewhere between bluff and diplomacy, with some pros and cons from both, but because it takes a skill investment and not just a feat, it would be costly to try in game and then be unable to move the skill points.

Thanks in advance for anything on this really, Im sure it wouldve been explained somewhere but the board wipe looks to have eaten any specific writeups. Cheers!

[Jebin]

When I had the feat (3 or 4 months ago) I didn't find it terribly useful because of the bugs associated with trying to sneak attack stuff by yourself.

Bluff by itself is a single target affair with the same wind up time that Diplomacy and Intimidate have.

Improved Feint activates as a swing (No damage or to hit rolls on it, just the animation) so it's faster acting, and the AE radius is short, not much longer than a normal attack.

Unlike Dipolmacy and Intimidate, it's a single hit deal. You can't bluff/feint something and then just wail away with sneak attack damage.

It can also be kind of annoying. When a monster gets bluffed, they usually end up turning and taking a few steps in a random direction, which can make getting to them when surrounded by other monsters that weren't bluffed before the short duration wears off more trouble than it's worth.

Monsters stay bluffed only about 6-8 seconds, so it doesn't leave you a lot of time to miss.

The cool down timer on Improved Feint is seperate from the Bluff timer, and slightly shorter.

If I had to do it over again, I'd drop my bluff skill points into Diplomacy. More 'bang for the buck' so to speak, when you can make enemies concentrate on someone else for a while.

Oh, and it is techically considered a 'social' skill, so it won't work on mindless creatures.

[bbqzor]

Ok great, that cleared up most everything. Ty much. Just to be sure I have this right:

Activation time is 1 attack animation. Reuse is separate timer and faster than bluff (so, maybe 6 second cycle instead of 10?)

It is an ae around you in a circle like diplomacy/intimidate, but rather than reaching out a ways its pretty much just your melee radius. Not a cone effect as some posts in my search indicated.

Mobs are only 'feinted' for a single attack like bluff, rather than the 6 seconds diplomacy/intimidate last. You have the full 6 seconds to land this attack but the effect will wear off after 1 hit rather than the full duration.

It is still a 'social' skill so is no more or less useful than its counterparts on mindless creatures etc.

Pros: If youre in a situation where you need to bluff (solo, dont want to reset hate, etc), this will affect multiple mobs per use, and can be used quicker, *and* can be used in addition to the normal timer.

Cons: Random mob movement harder to deal with than predictable pathing towards teammates, only 'good' for 1 hit per mob rather than 6 seconds on all mobs from diplomacy, cant use it to buy teammates time like diplomacy-ing near them.

- Question, like normal bluff, will a teammates hit 'use' the improved feint? Or will it 'save' it until you personally hit the mob sometime in the effects window. So for example, you improved feint 5 mobs, Barby McBarb swings his greataxe and hits 4 of them, now your 'feint' attack is only good on one mob?

- Other question, does this actually 'clear' agro like diplomacy, or does it just buy you 'ignored' time like bluff? I understand after 1 hit the 'feint' portion would wear off, but will the ones you affected with the ae reagro on you, or just on someone, when it wears off (presuming you dont stab them). So for example, if you improved feint 5 mobs, they wander, you stay on one, after the 6 seconds are up do the other 4 auto agro on you or just come back and attack the party?

[CSFurious]

first, i think the rogue always need to be behind the tanks

second, i sneak sometimes to the side or just behind tanks & use bluff or improved feint, it just bluffs the entire mob & then you pick which one you want to sneak attack

it is a useful feat, but there are probably more important ones for you to take

but, i think combat expertise is useful for a rogue so improved feint is a logical choice for a feat selection

[Jebin]

- Question, like normal bluff, will a teammates hit 'use' the improved feint? Or will it 'save' it until you personally hit the mob sometime in the effects window. So for example, you improved feint 5 mobs, Barby McBarb swings his greataxe and hits 4 of them, now your 'feint' attack is only good on one mob?

- Other question, does this actually 'clear' agro like diplomacy, or does it just buy you 'ignored' time like bluff? I understand after 1 hit the 'feint' portion would wear off, but will the ones you affected with the ae reagro on you, or just on someone, when it wears off (presuming you dont stab them). So for example, if you improved feint 5 mobs, they wander, you stay on one, after the 6 seconds are up do the other 4 auto agro on you or just come back and attack the party?

I honestly couldn't say. In most parties I was more concerned about keeping in position to hit the monsters while keeping an eye on the back to make sure nothing got by us frontliners. So I never used bluff in party situations, basicly if I wanted to sneak attack and the monster was attacking me, I'd go sneak attack something else. Spring Attack lets you do that easily :)


first, i think the rogue always need to be behind the tanks

If you tried to tell my rogue that, he'd kick you in the face :) Then again, not all rogues are strength based with 263 hitpoints and 41 unbuffed AC. My rogue is more of a 'tank' than some tanks I've seen out there. Having sneak attack to pull agro when I want it off the casters is a big help.


second, i sneak sometimes to the side or just behind tanks & use bluff or improved feint, it just bluffs the entire mob & then you pick which one you want to sneak attack

Not sure if I'm seeing the benefit in this tactic... You're bluffing monsters that aren't attacking you and then picking one to focus on? Why bother bluffing at all?


it is a useful feat, but there are probably more important ones for you to take

Have to agree there, well, except for the 'useful' part. There are more important feats that will be more beneficial to a rogue. Toughness for instance.


but, i think combat expertise is useful for a rogue so improved feint is a logical choice for a feat selection

Combat Expertise is a good choice, but it's very situational. I rarely use it, except when I have to run down a gauntlet of monsters to throw a switch, ect. About the only time I use it in actual combat is when facing the Dragons in the Tor -- Usually end up tanking either the Giant or the Dragon, and the extra 5 AC helps, while the drop in to hit is not as big of a deal.

[bbqzor]

Nods, ty for the replies. Im sure someone will know those last 2, and youve been very helpful. Ty and good luck!

[CSFurious]

i experimented with a halfling rogue/fighter build once to level 8

he was a halfling so hitpoints were not huge

anyway, it appeared to me that if i saw a mob, i could bluff the entire mob & then pick which one to sneak attack, the usefulness of this tactic is subject to debate

i think it guarantees sneak attack damage everytime though which is not always the case when you are actively engaging the mob

also, i do not think that any rogue who has 261 hitpoints needs to have this feat

i play drow, and tend to hang back, i actually force myself to take my fingers of the keyboard for a few seconds so i am not engaging anything before the tanks

combat expertise is very useful for dex-based weapon finesse rogues in the mid-levels that with evasion equals greater success in combat based on my experiences