Knowledge, Build, or Gear?

[Perryc]

Ok, new topic just cause I haven't stirred up trouble lately ... what makes more of a difference in game, game/quest knowledge, character build, or gear?

Btw, butterflies are a dish best served with revenge (and honey mustard).

[gorloch]

I would say game/quest knowledge. With the knowledge comes knowing how to make a good build (game knowledge of what works and what doesn't) as well as what equipment you are going to need where (featherfall, UA, Poison Proof, etc..). Of course it takes someone smart enough to utilize the knowledge that they have gained.

PIXA

[Clay]

i agree with Gorloch...

can have the best gear but if yer a stone in someones pocket cuz you keep messing simple thing up... then they don't do you much good.

in another thread someone posted that the mark of a good player is being able to play a gimped character well... I agree... If all you ever play is a "perfect" dorf ftr or bbn... then i imagine the quests will get a little boring...

Its fun to roll a character that is odd in its creation.

Maybe i am just projecting...

[loki523]

All three.

Edit: You left out raw skill though which, IMO outweighs all 3...

[Clay]

All three.

Edit: You left out raw skill though which, IMO outweighs all 3...

wouldn't skill fall under the catergory of game/quest knowledge? Or would it have been better expressed as two categories: quest knowledge and gaming ability?

[Scarsgaard]

Personal skill helps.. the gear is least important.

If you can't do simple things like control aggro, shield wall, manage mana... etc... well you're pretty much useless.

It is also key to have these 2 skills... ask questions if you don't know something and follow good leadership. If you can follow a good leader, you'll make a good leader in time.

As far as builds go.. the best build is useless if it doesn't suit your play style:eek: I like casters and clerics. I get them.. and while I can build a good tank (i.e. copy my friends).. I'm not interested in it, and thusly... my tanks are mediocre.

Loot comes eventually, but if you're a good team player, a solid player and have knowledge... you can do wonders with the gear you gather. A bad player can have all the best gear and still blow chunk.

[loki523]

wouldn't skill fall under the catergory of game/quest knowledge?

There's a difference between knowing which way to swim in Crucible and making it every time without taking damage on your sorc...

[Perryc]

I think gaming ability and skill are probably the same thing here; the ability to take a specific action or series of action successfully such as the Crucible swim, getting the levers in the Reaver's Fate, or getting on top of the maze on the purple side without using the stairs in the Twilight Forge. Just because you know how to do it doesn't mean that you can.:) This is even more true if you run multiple toons with different stats -- it's much harder to make the Crucible swim with a low reflex character than a high reflex/evasion build.

Adding gaming ability/skill to the list.

[XFracture]

Knowledge.

No contest. I see too many "leeted" out players getting owned because they're ******** to believe otherwise.

[Jundak]

Knowledge. Hands down...

You can be a skilled player with the shiniest toys, but if you don't know what the hell you're doing in any given situation...well, then you're only as good as a Harbor rat with masterwork gear in Gianthold. That is, good at getting yourself killed.

Skill comes from practice for 90% of the player base. Shiny toys can be bought at the AH. Knowledge comes from paying attention...which sadly seems to be the most difficult task presented to most folks I've run across.

[Jaywade]

knowledge and skill go hand in hand if you ask me I've seen far too many people that have opne and not the other....gear is helpfull but a good build is a good build no matter what weapons/gear you may or may not have

[Scarsgaard]

A person without knowledge of the Quest can be taught, but a person who can't shield wall by lvl 12 (ask Malnon about this one) can't be taught anything.

[narizue]

Knowledge. Of the game. Of the quest. Of your build and its strengths and limitations, and of your party members strengths and limitations. Shinies are nice and do make things easier but are seldom if ever anything other than an EASY button. Knowledge also reflects to me the understanding of the various concepts of the game including aggro control, self-sufficency, tactical combat etc.

After knowledge I would say build, for example using con as a dump stat can often be a death sentance if you lack the knowledge. Gear can repair some of the damage of a bad build, but not all of it by a longshot. A solid build that is not equipped with the uber items will still outperform a totally twinked out build 90% of the time in my experience.

Player skill, to me is reflected by knowledge and build. Skillful players will seldom build gimped builds unless it is for the challenge of doing so. A player who is bragging constantly about their uber loot endlessly often lacks the skills to use it properly.(Now I know we all brag about our good pulls, but I cannot count the number of times that I have been in a party looking for a tank when we get some ranger trying to join with the words "I have a paralyzying bow." Von 4 was a personal fave for that situation.) Gear makes the game easier. Thats all.

[ace_mason]

SKILL,KNOWLEDGE,THEN EQUIP.
I do think that euip can over come alot of the lack of knowledge.

[Brai]

I go with skill and ability every time! That is the most important. That and some basic intelligence (not knowledge) and common sense. These two are the most important for completing quests and advancing through the game. The others are nice to have but you can advance through the game without leet loot or knowledge. Remember when scavenged war plate was hot, and Gwylans stand was unknown, we made it through that because someone had some brains and some ability.

If you are good you can pretty much solo or duo up to 12, heck this is pretty much standard GoL practice. We do it cause way too many people in the guild have way too many capped toons, and rarely build new ones. Side effects of that are that we learn to be self sufficient and how to play our toons to their max. Buy time we can actually join in in on the raid and loot fun with the other established powerhouses we know what the toon can do very well. Recently I just took over my friend that quit the games account. He has a lvl 12 ranger, I have never played a ranger before so I will try not to get in over my head before I figure her out, it is all about comfort level. But I had the ability that the first time I really played her we 3 manned the titan with a ranger, wizard, and fighter.

More equipment and knowledge definitely help speed up the process, but ability is key, Ability is the building block.

[loki523]

it's much harder to make the Crucible swim with a low reflex character than a high reflex/evasion build.

That's my point right there. Anyone who thinks they need evasion to make the swim easier is a little lacking in skill. There is no reason to take damage in there even if you have no evasion, 90 hp, zero swim, and zero reflex. A skilled player will dive in with this toon and go solo the gnolls. A player who lacks skill will look around and say, "Ok who's carrying my stone?"

[Scarsgaard]

Yeah yeah ...

Knowledge is Power ... hell.. in every freaking Kabbalistic text and High Schhol Sylibus you'll hear this quote...

..but in my opinion Knowledge is Useless if you lack the testicular fortitude to use it, the mental capacity to understand it and the character to validate it.

In other words... everything depends on the player. I've been on perfect first time runs with players that lacked the quest knowledge but understood teamwork, their role and how to communicate.

..and I've been on craptastic runs with craptastic players, who made the best known runs into a bleeding nightmare.

Knowledge is great... but personal skill and social skills are everything.

[5footStep]

Frankly.... I think the most important qualities... *shrug* is a dash of patience and a sense of humor

[Scarsgaard]

oops... I forgot beer:D

[Brai]

I though beer was a given with mmos???

[Riddikulus]

Having knowledge of the quest trumps all.

Someone who has run PoP 100 times has a much easier time in that quest than even the most elite super skilled uber equipped player who has never run it.

IMO: Metagaming > Skill > Equipment > Build

[TreknaQudane]

Having knowledge of the quest trumps all.

Someone who has run PoP 100 times has a much easier time in that quest than even the most elite super skilled uber equipped player who has never run it.

IMO: Metagaming > Skill > Equipment > Build

I'd have to agree. Your characters Build is probably the least important thing in the game. Great equipment can make any character relatively strong, lacking that knowing HOW to play your don't need the crutch of all that equipment, but knowing WHERE the hell you are doing it and why is even more useful

[Shamguard]

Knowledge is the most important. Knowledge of how to build your character. Knowledge of how to play your character build. Knowledge of how to work with the other players in your party. Knowledge of what equipment will best complement your character build. Most of all, knowledge of just how to play the game.

These things will improve your play and chance for success in a dungeon you are running for the 1st time or the 100th time.

IMHO the best player is not the one who can now solo a dungeon that he has run so many time that he can do it in his sleep. The best players are the ones who can go into a dungeon for the first time and work together to succeed. That is what DnD is about not running the same dungeon so many times you know where all the traps are and which levers to pull and when, but doing it the first time and having to figure out which is the correct lever and having to find the traps.
That is when players are truly shown for what quality they are.

[sigtrent]

It's a confluence of things...

Skill/Technique is probably paramount. You always have this no matter the circumstance.

Knowledge is next up and it can make a huge difference, but knowledge without skill won't get you terribly far. Put them together and you have all you need most of the time.

Gear is probably more important than build. You have to work hard to make a build that just plain can't get the job done. Good gear can make up for most build deficiencies and it can make up for a certain measure of skill and knowledge.

Build is probably last up. I love builds, its my favorite aspect of most games I play because there is a combination of skill knowledge and creativity that goes into it. But its hard to build a totaly unplayable character in DDO. Even a bad build with good gear is pretty decent.

[Weedo]

size does matter!

[Muirtach]

I though beer was a given with mmos???

I never got mine!

Darn you Turbine!

[gorloch]

size does matter!

Yes it does. :D

PIXA

[Memnir]

Knowledge.

If you have the best gear, but no clue as of to what you are doing, you might as well be flailing about with masterwork. So, gear is not as important.

Having a good build comes from having the know-how on what makes a succsesfull alt. So, build is a natural extension of knowledge.

[Scarsgaard]

Yes it does. :D

PIXA

Somehow I keeping coming back to Clerks 2, with the over-sized V***na, and Dante's comment... "she might as well have a ****" lol


Sometimes size is bad bad bad really bad:D

[tihocan]

I'd say none, because if you seriously lack in any of these 3 areas, you will be a horrible player.

[Jundak]

I'd say none, because if you seriously lack in any of these 3 areas, you will be a horrible player.

So, basically, what you're saying is that a player is horrible if he's lacking a vorpal, smiter, banisher, paralyzer, Mithral FP/BP, Mithral Tower Shield, Superior Potency/Lore/Devotion items, PoP X, +6 stat gear, and a partridge in a pear tree.

I must be a horrible player, then...I only have the armor and shield, one +6 stat item, and that poor, useless bird in his stupid tree...

[tihocan]

So, basically, what you're saying is that a player is horrible if he's lacking a vorpal, smiter, banisher, paralyzer, Mithral FP/BP, Mithral Tower Shield, Superior Potency/Lore/Devotion items, PoP X, +6 stat gear, and a partridge in a pear tree.
I said seriously lacking. Some people in this thread have said "even with great equipment, if you don't know how to use it, you'll suck". I'm saying that, similarly, even with great knowledge, if you have no equipment, you'll suck (except maybe as a tour guide in someone else's pocket).
My statement was to be read very literally: if you completely lack one of these three ingredients, you won't be of any significant help to your party, and thus there is no single of them that rules them all.

Edit: to clarify even further, by "seriously lacking in equipment", I meant really the equivalent of being naked in a quest.

[Riddikulus]

I'm saying that, similarly, even with great knowledge, if you have no equipment, you'll suck (except maybe as a tour guide in someone else's pocket).
...
Edit: to clarify even further, by "seriously lacking in equipment", I meant really the equivalent of being naked in a quest.
I am going to go out on a limb and say that someone who has, say, Waterworks memorized top to bottom like most of us do can run a character through it completely naked and survive better than someone completely twinked up but having never run it before.

Having mob and trap locations memorized is completely unbalancing compared to any other factor.

I think I might have to give that a go tonight and see how far I get.

[Uamhas]

ok. who's gonna carry my stone?:D

[Scarsgaard]

ok. who's gonna carry my stone?:D

Pffft... carry it to the lava and leave it there, maybe:eek: :D

[Eladiun]

40%, 35%, 25%

[Uamhas]

Pffft... carry it to the lava and leave it there, maybe:eek: :D

tsk! No pocket Uma for Scar! Lava makes Uma cranky.

[Jundak]

Edit: to clarify even further, by "seriously lacking in equipment", I meant really the equivalent of being naked in a quest.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating...

The Tigers have run Tempest Spine completely naked, just to do it. It was on eilte...there was only one death. No special equipment was used. One caster and one cleric (if I recall correctly). And that run was after the changes to 'ol Sorjek.

Sorry, man...but I stand by my earlier statement.

[Vhlad]

... what makes more of a difference in game, game/quest knowledge, character build, or gear?

Out of those three choices (assuming the other two are not utterly gimped in the most extreme way imaginable), the winner is Knowledge. Hands down.
If you know all of the tricks, all of the exploits, and all of the weaknesses of the game (which generally result from designing and releasing content with flaws that are either not found by the QA team or pushed through anyway), then you can solo pretty much everything in the game.

Provided, of course, that you have the minimal skill and means needed to properly use a keyboard and mouse (which includes stuff like, oh, being able to SEE, and having appendages that function).

HOWEVER, if the other two choices are gimped beyond normal comprehension, such as:
1) BUILD: a 4 barb / 5 wizard / 5 rogue, with 8 str, 8 int, 8 con, silly feats like skill focus swim, and no enhancements VS Ubah min-max 1337 pwnzor
2) GEAR: absolutely no gear or items whatsoever VS Ubah itams x99999
3) KNOWLEDGE: none VS everything

Then.. HMMM
Upon more thought, it is rather hard to choose.
With the right gear, im sure you could make the gimp build function, even if you have no knowledge of the quest.
And with knowledge, you could run mobs through traps and use all the little exploits and safe spots, even if you have no items and the gimp build.
Or with an uber build, you could do a lot with no items whatsoever, even if you have no knowledge of the quest (such as a naked sorc).

Hmmm. I choose:
Option D) Having a Burrito

Edit: Build wins. A caster made right can do more in a party, even with no items or knowledge of the quest, than the other extremes. Melee can probably be included here when we get Monks.

[Scarsgaard]

..agreed, only the Have-Nots worry about gear for they think this will make them great players.

...now that I have stuff, I can honetsly say that the gear has improved my toons but, the gear has not made my builds better... they just made things easier.

But... knowing which tactic works best in which situation is essential. The knowledge, on how to do something, when something is appropriate and how to fix an issue is key... how many times have I had to run away, regroup, heal on the fly or basically panic in the right way... is lost to the annals of time... but the fact that a player can do this and succeed is the true measuring rod of skill. Only experience and knowledge count... everything else is either a symptom or an enabler...

...if you count on your gear to succeed... you're half-a-player...

[tihocan]

The Tigers have run Tempest Spine completely naked, just to do it.
Haha I knew someone would probably mention a naked TS run :D
I really had no will to start an argument or make a controversial statement. I thought it would be quite obvious for everyone that gear is an important part of how effective our characters are, and without it, you lose a lot of your abilities. Now, it does not mean you can't do anything (see e.g. naked runs), but you would pale compared to someone with the same build & knowledge, but decent equipment.

Now, I probably didn't answer the OP's question correctly. As to which one is most important, I will also reply knowledge like most other people. My point was in reaction to some other posts in this thread that, when I read them, seemed to suggest that knowledge was all you needed. But maybe I read them wrong. Anyway. Hopefully I made my point clear enough now to move on :)

[Scarsgaard]

Hopefully I made my point clear enough now to move on :)


Nope...

Can you please reiterate and elucidate this matter for clarity's sake.:D

[tihocan]

Nope...

Can you please reiterate and elucidate this matter for clarity's sake.
Who's Clarity? :confused:

[Scarsgaard]

Who's Clarity? :confused:

Clarity was this ex of mine but after a few beers she became Raging Glass Through My Living Room While Standing In Her Underwear Girl... but hey that's a story for a different day:D

[Jundak]

Haha I knew someone would probably mention a naked TS run :D

Hehe...if you've never done it, I highly recommend it just for the stupid screen shots you'll take. :)


I really had no will to start an argument or make a controversial statement. I thought it would be quite obvious for everyone that gear is an important part of how effective our characters are, and without it, you lose a lot of your abilities. Now, it does not mean you can't do anything (see e.g. naked runs), but you would pale compared to someone with the same build & knowledge, but decent equipment.

Knowledge, to me, does not mean merely quest knowledge. It means knowing the limitations of your build, HOW to make a build, how to equip your build, what potions/wands to carry, how to be a team player, and how to solo when you're bored. I'm sure I missed a couple of key points to the knowledge factor...but if you are "armed" with knowledge (as Scar put it), then a good build with the proper equipment will only naturally follow. And I mean proper equipment...not necessarily uber.


Now, I probably didn't answer the OP's question correctly. As to which one is most important, I will also reply knowledge like most other people. My point was in reaction to some other posts in this thread that, when I read them, seemed to suggest that knowledge was all you needed. But maybe I read them wrong. Anyway. Hopefully I made my point clear enough now to move on :)

Now, was that so hard? :D

[Arlith]

Ok, new topic just cause I haven't stirred up trouble lately ... what makes more of a difference in game, game/quest knowledge, character build, or gear?

Btw, butterflies are a dish best served with revenge (and honey mustard).

Its a balance, if you don't have the knowledge, the gear and/or build can help get you through. As your knowledge (and skill) increase, you will find you can do the same quests with less. Of course, nothing cures stupidity.

[Scarsgaard]

Its a balance, if you don't have the knowledge, the gear and/or build can help get you through. As your knowledge (and skill) increase, you will find you can do the same quests with less. Of course, nothing cures stupidity.

Except a bullet:D

[lostinjapan]

That's my point right there. Anyone who thinks they need evasion to make the swim easier is a little lacking in skill.

I guess I'm a little lacking in skill because I think evasion does make the swim easier.

Not that it can't be done without it...just that it makes it much easier. :D

[Shamguard]

That's my point right there. Anyone who thinks they need evasion to make the swim easier is a little lacking in skill. There is no reason to take damage in there even if you have no evasion, 90 hp, zero swim, and zero reflex. A skilled player will dive in with this toon and go solo the gnolls. A player who lacks skill will look around and say, "Ok who's carrying my stone?"

If I was playing in a stand alone enviroment I might agree with you, but in an online world of lag spikes, dropped servers, and net traffic. I think skill has less use than luck (whatever that is) in surviving in this game.

FYI: I think luck is an excuse for the ignorant to explain why they accept failure, when it more likely lack of knowedge.

[Arlith]

Except a bullet:D

True... true.. LOL

How goes the studying???

[Jundak]

True... true.. LOL

How goes the studying???

Ya haven't noticed? He's been taking an extended break from studying to get back to what's really important:

Kobold and Butterfly Shish-ka-Bobs! :D

[Scarsgaard]

Ya haven't noticed? He's been taking an extended break from studying to get back to what's really important:

Kobold and Butterfly Shish-ka-Bobs! :D

lol... yep... sat and sun daytime is study study study... then I'm going bug squishing and loot whoring:D

[Clay]

I guess I'm a little lacking in skill because I think evasion does make the swim easier.

Not that it can't be done without it...just that it makes it much easier. :D
lol

i have to agree with Lost... having a high enough evasion to make the saves would be easier

perhaps loki meant someone needing evasion TO MAKE the swim period...

[Perryc]

You hit the head with a nail, or something like that :)

[lostinjapan]

I just read your sig Perryc...

****...and I thought I had a lot of characters. :eek: :D