Forget Batman. Meet the Robin Build

[Nataichal]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

The Robin Build
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 9 Rogue)
Hit Points: 159
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 19
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 18
Dexterity 16 24
Constitution 12 13
Intelligence 11 12
Wisdom 9 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 6 11 11
Bluff 4 8 8
Concentration 1 1 1
Diplomacy 2 12 12
Disable Device 5 18 18
Haggle 6 20 20
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 3 7 7
Intimidate 6 7 7
Jump 5 15 15
Listen 0 0 2
Move Silently 3 7 7
Open Lock 7 24 24
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 1
Search 5 18 20
Spot 0 0 2
Swim 3 4 4
Tumble 4 8 8
Use Magic Device 6 20 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I

Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I

Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II

Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II

Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II



Final outcome? Fear immunity, disease immunity, evasion, a backstab of 5d6+12 at 40% hate reduction and an extra +6 to hit when holding treason, the ability to UMD well enough to res and self buff with near anything, a to hit comparable to fighters, 241 HP, or 255 if you get a +6 item and +2 tome, a reflex save in the 30s, an AC in the 40s when properly geared out, and all the rogue skills to boot. (Except spot. For that, use the reflex save.) This build is NOT a paper tank when played properlly. Just watch your AC and blurs, and you will out kill and outperform well equipped normal tanks. Heck, you can even backstab for 120+ dmg with the sword of shadows, do the von traps, and pull the lever with a rage. Forget Batman. Robyn can whoop his ass.

[Cowdenicus]

This is an awesome build, seen it in action.

[Rameses]

Gotta say nothing really makes this any different than a Batman build other than taking more levels of Rogue...

It's good to hear that it's an effective build... I always wondered.
But never cared to try. :p

I am, Rameses!

[bandyman1]

Like I posted in the Fighter forum where this build is also posted.

Good build.

One problem.

Grenfell ( creator of the batman build ) already has a build named the Robin. It's quite popular...so telling peeps you invented the Robin build may cause some problems.

It really is a good build man. Just create another name, lol.

[Nataichal]

A Batman build simply plays pure tank, wailing away with your standard slashing or blunts, while dabbling in rogue for evasion. This is a shortsword build above all, meant for backstab and treason. It'll outkill a Batman any day of the week when made properly.

[Riorik]

I guess that means you could always call it the "Batgurly build" since that doesn't seem to be taken.

[Rameses]

As I said before. There is nothing other than SWAPING levels around in the different classes that distinguishes this Build from the Batman.

And truely Kill Counts has no significance.

I am, Rameses!

[Freeman]

My main concern is that aren't they on something like the fourth or fifth Robin now, while the original Batman is still around? Come on, have a little more confidence in the build :p

[Roguewiz]

A Rogue without Improved Evasion is like a Barbarian without Greater Rage, doable, but why not go all the way?

Improved Evasion is an awesome ability, especially if you plan on disabling traps (since some traps do require the Rogue to go through them to get to the box)

Even with your saves in the 30s, trust me, you'll still fail. It is better to take half damage on a failed save, than take full damage. Some of the upper level traps hit for 60...and that is half damage. With my saves being in the 40s (buffed), I still fail on a 1 (and sometimes a 2!)


As I said before. There is nothing other than SWAPING levels around in the different classes that distinguishes this Build from the Batman.

And truely Kill Counts has no significance.

I am, Rameses!

QFT

[Grenfell]

Nice DPS build.

There's so much confusion around the Batman name. :) Batman is dead -- quite simply, that build was an INTIMIDATE TANK with Rogue skills. I've done quite a few DPS variants, and this one is close to one of them. I know they're good and can be made very well -- as this one is.

But none of them can TANK. Not anymore, with all of the changes and nerfs. They can dish out damage like there's no tomorrow, but again, none of them can TANK, defined as grabbing all of the aggro to keep the rest of the team safe, while having high enough AC, Saves, and HP to stay alive.

The only change I would make personally is to go 2 paladin instead of 3 paladin to pick up Improved Evasion at Rogue 10. Fear Immunity and Disease Immunity aren't all that impressive. Just carry Potions of Fear/Disease Removal and you're set. Now, if you need 3 Paladin for enhancements, etc., that's a different story.

But I can't see giving up IEvasion for those two special abilities.

/gren

[Grenfell]

One other thing. Power Attack AND ITWF, eh?

With 30 Dex (figure +6 item) and +11 BAB... I'm figuring the following:

+11 BAB
+10 Dex bonus (finesse)
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Vulkoor
+2 Melee Attack II
+4 G. Hero
-2 TWF penalty
-5 Power Attack
-----------------
+27 on the first swing.

Seems a bit... low to be claiming superiority over Fighter types. I guess the backstab bonuses make up for that?

/gren

[Aeneas]

Gotta say nothing really makes this any different than a Batman build other than taking more levels of Rogue...

It's good to hear that it's an effective build... I always wondered.
But never cared to try. :p

I am, Rameses!


Almost true. This build has a lot more skill points at its disposal because of rogue levels, has 4 more backstab dice. Access to rogue dex 1 and 2. Improved uncanny dodge. Access to way of the mechanic, way of the assasin, or way of the acrobat enhancement lines. Access to subtle backstab enhancements. So potentially it's very unlike a batman build. Taking a 10th rogue level would make it very different by unlocking rogue dex 3 and improved evasion.

[Cowdenicus]

Almost true. This build has a lot more skill points at its disposal because of rogue levels, has 4 more backstab dice. Access to rogue dex 1 and 2. Improved uncanny dodge. Access to way of the mechanic, way of the assasin, or way of the acrobat enhancement lines. Access to subtle backstab enhancements. So potentially it's very unlike a batman build. Taking a 10th rogue level would make it very different by unlocking rogue dex 3 and improved evasion.

and since all future levels are rogue levels, he will get Imp evasion.

[Lufia]

Nice build, I've made something very similar in february of this year and you are right Nataichal, The build usually outkills everything, and 1/3 of the times outkills the sorcs on elite content.

[Lifespawn]

Nice build, I've made something very similar in february of this year and you are right Nataichal, The build usually outkills everything, and 1/3 of the times outkills the sorcs on elite content.

then those sorcs suck sry nice build tho

[Aspenor]

with 12 int you might as well forget about disabling traps altogether and just go combat rogue stylee. I mean really, who wants to disable traps anyway? *snore* That's what evasion and a reflex save are for!

[wiglin]

Nice build, I've made something very similar in february of this year and you are right Nataichal, The build usually outkills everything, and 1/3 of the times outkills the sorcs on elite content.

So you got the last hit on the mob...Yay!

[Nataichal]

Few responses.

Yes, GTWF and IE are both great, and they're coming. This buld is already mapped out to be a 13 rogue/3 paly/ 2 fighter. Last 2 levels I don't know yet. Til then, the 30+ reflex at all times tends to make IE not needed too often. After that, the sheer convience of never needed to deal with disease or the stat damage it causes, or despair, or symbol of fear, etc, just makes the 2 immunities way to handy. Also, I'm not certain on this, but the 2 aura's I took I think came at lvl 3 paly.

As to the To hit, your math is right, though as often as fighter crack is passed out I'd probably toss in the +1 haste bonus with it. But as to the rest, the backstab on this build is downright EVIL. Treason adds in +3, the enhancements +2. +5 backstab item instead of treason adds another +2. So that'll raise you to a +35 first swing right there. A friend of mine is dabbling in divine power and tensers scrolls to up this even higher, with the +3 BAB bonus. What I've found is holding treason is generally enough, I just have to have someone standing beside me. They don't even have to DPS well, just make funny noises.

Also, one of my primary weapon sets which I use with PA most often is a para rapier and a seeker 10 SS. The para makes hitting pretty much a given. Normal hits in the mid to high 20s, normal backstabs in the 50-60 range, and crit backstabs 85-95. 6 times a round, averaging at least 1 crit each, and I'm happy with that. :P

So no, I don't get my kills just from 'getting in the last attack'. I hit harder than the tanks generally do, but the aggro reduction makes them ignore me anyways.

And the build can disarm GH elite with the right items, except for the cabal trap. My pure int rogue is largely a waste with the trap scale downs I'd have been better suited using some of the INT in STR.

[Crabo]

Nice build, I've made something very similar in february of this year and you are right Nataichal, The build usually outkills everything, and 1/3 of the times outkills the sorcs on elite content.

My pushbike beats V8s. Only when the V8 is out of gas or has no driver though.

[lostinjapan]

While I agree it is a pretty good build (and no you can't coin the term catwoman either - I've already got it on my palarogue), I seriously doubt you outkill sorcs in GH on elite unless the sorcs in question just plain suck.

Tanks maybe...sorcs no.

All the DPS in the world cannot top insta-kill.

[Nataichal]

Noone can beat insta-kill. However, there ARE some sorc spells that turn this build from nasty to outright rediculous.

[Roguewiz]

While I agree it is a pretty good build (and no you can't coin the term catwoman either - I've already got it on my palarogue), I seriously doubt you outkill sorcs in GH on elite unless the sorcs in question just plain suck.

Tanks maybe...sorcs no.

All the DPS in the world cannot top insta-kill.

DPS stops instakills just fine, but usually the Sorcerer runs around screaming "get it off me, get it off me!"

Or am I thinking about the wrong type of DPS? :D

[lostinjapan]

DPS stops instakills just fine, but usually the Sorcerer runs around screaming "get it off me, get it off me!"

Or am I thinking about the wrong type of DPS? :D

I have a sorc. I have a rogue/paladin build. I have other characters (see sig). Anyone who knows me knows I probably play my rogue more than any of my characters (and my ranger is my original char) ...so this is NOT about favoritism of characters.

Bottom line, a properly specced out and properly played sorcerer can outkill any other class with insta-kill.

As much as I love playing my rogue and value high DPS, nothing tops insta-kill.

If you've been running around with sorcs who do what you described...no offense intended but you probably should find better quality players to hang with.

[Crabo]

I have a sorc. I have a rogue/paladin build. I have other characters (see sig). Anyone who knows me knows I probably play my rogue more than any of my characters (and my ranger is my original char) ...so this is NOT about favoritism of characters.

Bottom line, a properly specced out and properly played sorcerer can outkill any other class with insta-kill.

As much as I love playing my rogue and value high DPS, nothing tops insta-kill.

If you've been running around with sorcs who do what you described...no offense intended but you probably should find better quality players to hang with.

Im offended, im the main sorc in his guild. I didnt realise i sucked so much.
Oh raq....any time you would like to bring any of your toons into any dungeon where mobs arent immune to death effects up against either of my sorcs , lets roll. I will even take my charisma item off just to give you half a chance.
If he has the stones for it, results will be posted here for amusement.

Edit : I am starting to think he was just having a joke, yea he has to be, i know the guy isn't silly. Disregard my post if i misunderstood raq....but bring it on if i didnt.

[LastNameRage]

Fyi. he = she, and I'd put my money on her anyways. Never even seen her sorc in action, but only a chump calls out a women and then edit's his post about her joking. Bottom line is she was saying that if he was grouping with sorc's that were specc'd for instadeath type spells and he often outkilled them, they were poor player's.... She enever said anything about you being a poor player because you were not specc'd as such.

[lostinjapan]

Im offended, im the main sorc in his guild. I didnt realise i sucked so much.

Excuse you (and your attitude), but this...


If you've been running around with sorcs who do what you described...no offense intended but you probably should find better quality players to hang with.

Was in direct response to this:


DPS stops instakills just fine, but usually the Sorcerer runs around screaming "get it off me, get it off me!"

If he was describing you, take it up with your "guildmate".

[Roguewiz]

Im offended, im the main sorc in his guild. I didnt realise i sucked so much.
Oh raq....any time you would like to bring any of your toons into any dungeon where mobs arent immune to death effects up against either of my sorcs , lets roll. I will even take my charisma item off just to give you half a chance.
If he has the stones for it, results will be posted here for amusement.

Edit : I am starting to think he was just having a joke, yea he has to be, i know the guy isn't silly. Disregard my post if i misunderstood raq....but bring it on if i didnt.

Joke directed at Crabo :D
Serious in regards to other Sorcerers I've grouped with

[Crabo]

Excuse you (and your attitude), but this...



Was in direct response to this:



If he was describing you, take it up with your "guildmate".

Heh, yea i was borrowing your quote but was more referring to his comments. I am taking it up with him in the lobster haha.

[Crabo]

If he was describing you, take it up with your "guildmate".

And yes he was describing me, though i normally die before i even get to scream "get it off me" even just once. Casters are weak. Please buff casters.

[Roguewiz]

And yes he was describing me, though i normally die before i even get to scream "get it off me" even just once. Casters are weak. Please buff casters.

Nah, just make casters able to fit in my pocket and still cast: haste, displacement, and greater heroism on me. :D.....oh wait, thats what I got UMD for.

<----Squishy with more AC, and slightly more HP

Edit: Don't mind me. Boring day at work, and the clock won't move. 5pm CST just wont come fast enough.

[Roguewiz]

Heh, yea i was borrowing your quote but was more referring to his comments. I am taking it up with him in the lobster haha.

Sure, but your are forbidden from casting:

Magic Missle
Force Missle
Anything that doesnt have a save
Level Drain (or whatever it is called)

Then I'll...umm, just run around screaming "Get it off me, get it off me!"

/em looks at clock, 15min to go...close enough, see you in game ;)

[lostinjapan]

Sure, but your are forbidden from casting:

Magic Missle
Force Missle

Shield clickies/wands/scrolls are your friends.


Anything that doesnt have a save
Level Drain (or whatever it is called)

Enervation. Death ward (clickie available from Tangleroot) prevents that as well as fod, etc.


Then I'll...umm, just run around screaming "Get it off me, get it off me!"

/em looks at clock, 15min to go...close enough, see you in game ;)

Take snapshots. :P

[Crabo]

Sure, but your are forbidden from casting:

Magic Missle
Force Missle
Anything that doesnt have a save
Level Drain (or whatever it is called)

Then I'll...umm, just run around screaming "Get it off me, get it off me!"

/em looks at clock, 15min to go...close enough, see you in game ;)

Oh i wouldn't bring a sorceror to do a barbarians job. Lets see you make a save against his greataxe. ;)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121485

PS : Casters are weak. Buff casters.