Dwarven Dual Axe Fighter/Barb

[ErgonomicCat]

Since the fighter forums were silent on the issue....

I can't imagine it's not a good build.

People tell me it's not.

But I wanna see for myself.

So I'm working on a dwarven TWF.

Main Hand, Dwarven Axe, off hand, Hand Axe.

1d10/1d6 damage (on par with Bastard sword/short sword, lose a human feat, gain EWP (Dwarven Axe)).

And then do the dwarven axe bonii.

Based on the char planner, I came up with this:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Bjornen Bjornenson
Level 14 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 270
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 15 19 (+4 dex item)
Constitution 17 20
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 4 9
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 3 5
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 2
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 7 12
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 10
Use Magic Device 0 6

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I

Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II

Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) ITWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) GTWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II

Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III



At the end of the day, I have +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 attacks (with the TWF penalty) base.

With an Axe, I get +8 damage (from Dwarven + IWS) and +4 to hit (From Dwarven + IWF).

So assuming a +5 weapon in each hand at level 14, that's +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21 for 1d10+19 main hand and 1d6+16 off hand.

I can wear Mithril Full Plate and get all my dex bonus.

That seems pretty nice.

Is my math off?

Will I regret my enhancements?

Any comments?

[Scalion]

You need 17 dex to take all the two weapon fighting feats. Items would not work.

With 15 starting Dex you'll either need to spend level 4/8/12 stat increases or get tomes to get the 17 dex you'll need for all two weapon fighting feats.

You probably know this already and I'm just not familiar with the method you plan on using to get the 17 dex, but I thought I'd point it out just in case.


I don't know a lot about end game play so I can't really advise you about anything else.

[tihocan]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the 2 levels of barb?
Otherwise, besides the dex issue, I would rather take stunning blow or Combat expertise + improved trip before improved sunder.

[ErgonomicCat]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the 2 levels of barb?
Otherwise, besides the dex issue, I would rather take stunning blow or Combat expertise + improved trip before improved sunder.

Rage, mostly.

I didn't see anything that made fighter 14 better than fighter 12 besides a feat. Barb 2 gets me rage, extra rage and extended rage, more HP, much better skills and the DR 6 action boost.

And for dex, I didn't know that - I'm only about a month in to DDO at this point. ;)

So put my stat increases to dex instead, that's doable.

[Gulva]

I've got a 12 fighter / 2 barb... I don't really use rage much at all... granted I only get 2 and they don't last very long, but even still I only use them if I'm having trouble hitting something. But with 2 barb levels you get Action Boost: Sprint, the DR 6 Boost, extra hp and the +1 con enhancement, so that alone is well worth losing 1 feat imo.

[ErgonomicCat]

I've got a 12 fighter / 2 barb... I don't really use rage much at all... granted I only get 2 and they don't last very long, but even still I only use them if I'm having trouble hitting something. But with 2 barb levels you get Action Boost: Sprint, the DR 6 Boost, extra hp and the +1 con enhancement, so that alone is well worth losing 1 feat imo.

That was my thought too. Fighter enhancements seemed to cap at 11, so 12-14 were a waste. I'm not actually sure I wouldn't be better off at Barb 4/fighter 10 - none of my enhancements require more than 10 levels of fighter. So should drop another feat for two more levels of barb, which would be trap sense (not so much) and another rage, but would allow me to pick up barb. toughness, more hp again, and better skills?

[Maldini]

Since the fighter forums were silent on the issue....

I can't imagine it's not a good build.

People tell me it's not.

But I wanna see for myself.

So I'm working on a dwarven TWF.

Main Hand, Dwarven Axe, off hand, Hand Axe.

1d10/1d6 damage (on par with Bastard sword/short sword, lose a human feat, gain EWP (Dwarven Axe)).

And then do the dwarven axe bonii.

Based on the char planner, I came up with this:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Bjornen Bjornenson
Level 14 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 270
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 15 19 (+4 dex item)
Constitution 17 20
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 4 9
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 3 5
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 2
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 7 12
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 10
Use Magic Device 0 6

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I

Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II

Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) ITWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) GTWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II

Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III



At the end of the day, I have +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 attacks (with the TWF penalty) base.

With an Axe, I get +8 damage (from Dwarven + IWS) and +4 to hit (From Dwarven + IWF).

So assuming a +5 weapon in each hand at level 14, that's +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21 for 1d10+19 main hand and 1d6+16 off hand.

I can wear Mithril Full Plate and get all my dex bonus.

That seems pretty nice.

Is my math off?

Will I regret my enhancements?

Any comments?


Dual Wield Heavy Picks or nothing at all. Dwarven Axes are okay, but if you're going with a 20 x3 weapon, you might as well go with a 20 x4 weapon. Spec in piercing weapons so that you'll have 17 - 20 x4 Crit Range on Heavy Picks. And your damage at Level 14 with good gear will be in the 150+ range with special effects on crits.

The huge crit range is of course for pure barbarians. I wouldn't even go multiclassed fighter. Go pure Barb with a 16 +1 Tome = 17 Dex at creation or 17 Dex to start.

[ErgonomicCat]

Dual Wield Heavy Picks or nothing at all. Dwarven Axes are okay, but if you're going with a 20 x3 weapon, you might as well go with a 20 x4 weapon. Spec in piercing weapons so that you'll have 17 - 20 x4 Crit Range on Heavy Picks. And your damage at Level 14 with good gear will be in the 150+ range with special effects on crits.

The huge crit range is of course for pure barbarians. I wouldn't even go multiclassed fighter. Go pure Barb with a 16 +1 Tome = 17 Dex at creation or 17 Dex to start.

My current plan is related to that - I found a pick/hammer build out there that seems very nice at the high end, but takes a while to get rolling.

So my idea is Waraxe/handaxe for a good while, when the d10 damage and the bonus dwarven damage makes a difference. Once I hit higher end (probably 8, when I can get imp crit), I'll swap over.

[Maldini]

My current plan is related to that - I found a pick/hammer build out there that seems very nice at the high end, but takes a while to get rolling.

So my idea is Waraxe/handaxe for a good while, when the d10 damage and the bonus dwarven damage makes a difference. Once I hit higher end (probably 8, when I can get imp crit), I'll swap over.


Yeah but the x4 Crit makes a huge difference, especially when your damage bonus is high.

There's not much to do though. You could make a dual-wielding human and take the dex enhancements. Start off with an 18 str, 16 Dex, 14 Con and eat a +1 Tome. When Superior Two-Handed Fighting comes out you'll just have to find a +3 Tome to fill the 19 Dex requirement. But then all you have to do is max out Str, Dex and Con and take the TWF feats all the way, and a Toughness Feat or the TWF Defense feat, etc. It's up to preference.

[Quartzite]

Picks usually do less damage than Dwarven Axes, even on crittable targets. Picks do get better as your target gets harder and harder to hit, but overall 2 Dwarven Axes is best DPS combo there is. It does cost Enhancements, it does mean going a Dwarf. But in most situations, dual Dwarven Axes maxed for damage will beat dual Heavy Picks. d6 (avg 3.5, max 6) vs d10+2 (avg 7.5, max 12) makes a big difference. As Str values go higher and higher the Heavy Pick gets better and better (the Pick also works better with Stunning Blow), but for non-crittable sustained DPS that is able to hit more often, Dwarvens Axes (in both hands) are still king.

By 20 if enhancements and gear continues the way it has been, dual Picks will probably be better for Dwarves. But who knows, Turbine might add a race specific crit-based Axe-Enhancement.

[Maldini]

Picks usually do less damage than Dwarven Axes, even on crittable targets. Picks do get better as your target gets harder and harder to hit, but overall 2 Dwarven Axes is best DPS combo there is. It does cost Enhancements, it does mean going a Dwarf. But in most situations, dual Dwarven Axes maxed for damage will beat dual Heavy Picks. d6 (avg 3.5, max 6) vs d10+2 (avg 7.5, max 12) makes a big difference. As Str values go higher and higher the Heavy Pick gets better and better (the Pick also works better with Stunning Blow), but for non-crittable sustained DPS that is able to hit more often, Dwarvens Axes (in both hands) are still king.

By 20 if enhancements and gear continues the way it has been, dual Picks will probably be better for Dwarves. But who knows, Turbine might add a race specific crit-based Axe-Enhancement.

So let's say for arguments sake that you're comparing a non-dwarf build here, and you're buffed up to a 40 Damage Bonus. With the pick your average crit will be about 43.5x4 = 174 whereas with the Dwarven Axe your average crit will about 45x3 = 135. So now with a Dwarf you're going to get 47.5x3 = 142.5 on a Crit. Your crit ranges are the same, so the heavy picks are going to do much more damage.

So if you're thinking that a 4 point damage bonus on a dwarf is going to make a difference over the lifetime of a character, then yeah you could say that, but when you look at a slice of a character like in a quest or against a boss mob or any mob, the Pick is going to win because it's going to do the serious damage numbers and kill the mob much quicker.

That's what anyone with sense thinks about when picking weapons. What's going to kill something the fastest? That's the pick over the dwarven axe with the same crit range.

[Maldini]

Picks really shine above Dwarven Axes when it comes to Bursters. An Axiomatic Burst Heavy Pick does an extra 7d6 damage on a crit. An Axiomatic Burst Heavy Pick of Maiming does an extra 10d6 damage on a crit because of the x4 multiplier. So that leaves any damage dice difference between the pick and the dwarven axe in the dust.

Note that an Anarchic Burst Heavy Pick of Maiming could be pretty nasty on the Reaver. The Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or of Pure Good is pretty good against the Dragons too.

[nbhs275]

gotta agree with mal. My pick barb is level 9 and outkilling everything. Crits can hit 160+ easy(+1 icy burst heavy pick of maiming is great for fire ellies)

[spifflove]

Dorfs have to spend alot of resources to get twf. A ranger circumvents this requirment. Possibly a halfling pick user is the way to go.

[Fallout]

gotta agree with mal. My pick barb is level 9 and outkilling everything. Crits can hit 160+ easy(+1 icy burst heavy pick of maiming is great for fire ellies)

That sounds like a fun build, maybe I'll try something like that. Unconventional builds are interesting.

[Fallout]

Wait, are you guys comparing dual wielding picks or just one hand pick?

When I was trying my TWF dorf, I made him a TWF using dorf axes. With fighter and dorf feats/enhacments it made TWF dorf axes pretty good.

A barb with TWF with picks will have great damage on crits, but I can't imagine the to-hit will be good.

[Maldini]

Wait, are you guys comparing dual wielding picks or just one hand pick?

When I was trying my TWF dorf, I made him a TWF using dorf axes. With fighter and dorf feats/enhacments it made TWF dorf axes pretty good.

A barb with TWF with picks will have great damage on crits, but I can't imagine the to-hit will be good.


The to hit is fine when you're strength is a 42 or higher.

[teddok]

That was my thought too. Fighter enhancements seemed to cap at 11, so 12-14 were a waste. I'm not actually sure I wouldn't be better off at Barb 4/fighter 10 - none of my enhancements require more than 10 levels of fighter. So should drop another feat for two more levels of barb, which would be trap sense (not so much) and another rage, but would allow me to pick up barb. toughness, more hp again, and better skills?

The Barb thoughness wont stack with the fighter thoughness.

[nbhs275]

The Barb thoughness wont stack with the fighter thoughness.

nope. Mixing barb+fighter isnt the best of ideas.

Also note:

Dwarfs can get the dex required easily. Just go

18 str
16 dex
16 con

and eat a dex tome.

Halfling isnt a good idea because of the str hit, and the dex not being very important(saves 4 build points that bring the con to where the dwarf would be, but losses 2 str to a dwarf)

Dwarven axe enhancements are expensive. 12 AP for +2 to hit and +2 damage isnt very cost effective.

[Maldini]

With the new +5 Seeker +8, Maiming Heavy Pick that you can get with Mod 5, which also has a 19-20 crit range, you'd be foolish to go with Dwarven Axes over this Pick.

You get it from collecting Tome pieces in the pre-raid. You have a 15-20 crit range on a x4 weapon. The damage is pretty sick.

[Fallout]

With the new +5 Seeker +8, Maiming Heavy Pick that you can get with Mod 5, which also has a 19-20 crit range, you'd be foolish to go with Dwarven Axes over this Pick.

You get it from collecting Tome pieces in the pre-raid. You have a 15-20 crit range on a x4 weapon. The damage is pretty sick.

That is sick. **** I'm convinced. Going to try making a drow barb. Just when I just hit L14 on a TWF dorf fighter too.

[Maldini]

That is sick. **** I'm convinced. Going to try making a drow barb. Just when I just hit L14 on a TWF dorf fighter too.


Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

[Scalion]

I don't have a 14 yet, so I haven't seen all the gear that is out there, but from what I have read about crits I don't see how you can get better than 19-20 on either a pick or an axe. Nothing that improves crit range has been stackable with anything else that I've seen so far.

Apparently I must be wrong.

If you were only looking at 19-20 crit range then I would think dual dwarven axes were the way to go because you aren't relying on crits for 90% of your damage... dwarf fighter specced axe would be 5-17 base damage (+2 specialization and +2 dwarf enhancement) while a heavy pick would be only 3-8 damage on a non crit. (of course I'm not factoring strength, or weapon quality because that applies to both weapons equally).

I definately see how a higher strength eventually makes picks better than axes for crits, but crits are not absolutely everything (though I can see where you are going if you can really get a 15-20 threat range on a x4 weapon).

[Fallout]

Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

What does human get for heavy picks over drow?

[Maldini]

What does human get for heavy picks over drow?


They get an extra feat, no stat penalties and can boost any two stats +1 with enhancements. Nothing having to do with heavy picks, but I wouldn't go with a heavy pick using Drow. The penalty to Con isn't good for a barb.

[Maldini]

I don't have a 14 yet, so I haven't seen all the gear that is out there, but from what I have read about crits I don't see how you can get better than 19-20 on either a pick or an axe. Nothing that improves crit range has been stackable with anything else that I've seen so far.

Apparently I must be wrong.

If you were only looking at 19-20 crit range then I would think dual dwarven axes were the way to go because you aren't relying on crits for 90% of your damage... dwarf fighter specced axe would be 5-17 base damage (+2 specialization and +2 dwarf enhancement) while a heavy pick would be only 3-8 damage on a non crit. (of course I'm not factoring strength, or weapon quality because that applies to both weapons equally).

I definately see how a higher strength eventually makes picks better than axes for crits, but crits are not absolutely everything (though I can see where you are going if you can really get a 15-20 threat range on a x4 weapon).

Okay let's do this...

The Deathnip is a 19 - 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 17 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 15 - 20 x4 or a 30% crit chance.

Dwarven Axes are a 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 19 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 17 - 20 x3 or a 20% crit chance.

The pick that I'm referring to is a named pick that is a weapon choice from the Tome collectible side quest in Mod 5. It has Seeker +8 with a x4 is 32 points of extra damage on a crit. A Dwarven Axe user with a Bloodstone Trinket that has Seeker +6 would only get +18 damage on a crit because Dwarven Axes are x3.

On top of that, this pick has Maiming on it, and for a x4 multiplier weapon that's an extra 1d6 over a x3 weapon like a Dwarven Axe.

So you see this pick blows any Dwarven Axe out of the water as far as damage goes.

For plain picks that have bursting and other effects on it, it's far better than the Dwarven Axe because the x4 multiplier adds even more damage on a crit.

Check out the description of an Axiomatic Burst weapon to see what I mean.

[spifflove]

Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

They do get synergy with any wounding/puncturing rapiers they happen to find d/t piercing line. My elf barbarian will be happy to get that pick.

Of course the question is, why aren't you preaching holding out for half orcs?

[Maldini]

They do get synergy with any wounding/puncturing rapiers they happen to find d/t piercing line. My elf barbarian will be happy to get that pick.

Of course the question is, why aren't you preaching holding out for half orcs?


Because I don't feel like waiting another 6 months. Also, if I'm using picks I'm using the Deathnip, not wounding of puncturing.

If I wanted to do stat damage all the time, I'd be a ranger or an arcane.

I want the big damage numbers baby.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I think the maiming is 3D6 on a x4 crit multiplier Mal...isnt it?

Nm, misread.
You said it was an EXTRA 1D6 over the x3 critter...my bad.

[Maldini]

I think the maiming is 3D6 on a x4 crit multiplier Mal...isnt it?

Nm, misread.
You said it was an EXTRA 1D6 over the x3 critter...my bad.


Yeah and Bursting effects too:

Holy Burst has no difference.

Axiomatic and Anarchic Burst give you an extra 2d6 I think.

Elemental Burst give you an extra 1d10 I think on a x4 Crit.

But I could be wrong...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yeah and Bursting effects too:

Holy Burst has no difference.

Axiomatic and Anarchic Burst give you an extra 2d6 I think.

Elemental Burst give you an extra 1d10 I think on a x4 Crit.

But I could be wrong...Holy Burst has the same addition as Axiomatic/Anarchic, it's just listed incorrectly. The difference between all alignment bursts is 1d6. x2= +3d6, x3= +4d6, x4= +5d6.

[Maldini]

Holy Burst has the same addition as Axiomatic/Anarchic, it's just listed incorrectly. The difference between all alignment bursts is 1d6. x2= +3d6, x3= +4d6, x4= +5d6.

There you go.

[spifflove]

Because I don't feel like waiting another 6 months. Also, if I'm using picks I'm using the Deathnip, not wounding of puncturing.

If I wanted to do stat damage all the time, I'd be a ranger or an arcane.

I want the big damage numbers baby.

Or rogue. All I am saying is that it allows more options on the same build. Because gear is luck dependent.

Anyway strength is the way to go with rangers. The Tempest ranger went the way of the Illuminati.

[Fallout]

Or rogue. All I am saying is that it allows more options on the same build. Because gear is luck dependent.

Anyway strength is the way to go with rangers. The Tempest ranger went the way of the Illuminati.

The problem with rogue is that its great that someone has agro and mob and can backstab for big numbers. But if the mob focuses on you, lose the big backstab numbers.

Are they really putting in half-orcs etc, or just speculation? Grinding the same lowbie levels again is dreadfully boring.

[Scalion]

Okay let's do this...

The Deathnip is a 19 - 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 17 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 15 - 20 x4 or a 30% crit chance.

Dwarven Axes are a 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 19 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 17 - 20 x3 or a 20% crit chance.

The pick that I'm referring to is a named pick that is a weapon choice from the Tome collectible side quest in Mod 5. It has Seeker +8 with a x4 is 32 points of extra damage on a crit. A Dwarven Axe user with a Bloodstone Trinket that has Seeker +6 would only get +18 damage on a crit because Dwarven Axes are x3.

On top of that, this pick has Maiming on it, and for a x4 multiplier weapon that's an extra 1d6 over a x3 weapon like a Dwarven Axe.

So you see this pick blows any Dwarven Axe out of the water as far as damage goes.

For plain picks that have bursting and other effects on it, it's far better than the Dwarven Axe because the x4 multiplier adds even more damage on a crit.

Check out the description of an Axiomatic Burst weapon to see what I mean.

Ok, so I can definately see how there is one weapon in the game that would make that particular pick the obvious choice over axes if the threat range of that particular weapon stacks with the improved crit feat.

However for every other comparison.....

A dwarf fighter that focuses on big + to hit numbers will not rely on crits for their damage. Yes, 10% of the time the damage of a pick user would beat the damage of the axe user, but the other 90% of the time the axe damage would be far ahead of the pick damage.

If you rely on either hold type spells or crits with seeker type effects to land your attacks, I can see your point, but a well built fighter should be able to hit much more often than just on criticals.

[Maldini]

Ok, so I can definately see how there is one weapon in the game that would make that particular pick the obvious choice over axes if the threat range of that particular weapon stacks with the improved crit feat.

However for every other comparison.....

A dwarf fighter that focuses on big + to hit numbers will not rely on crits for their damage. Yes, 10% of the time the damage of a pick user would beat the damage of the axe user, but the other 90% of the time the axe damage would be far ahead of the pick damage.

If you rely on either hold type spells or crits with seeker type effects to land your attacks, I can see your point, but a well built fighter should be able to hit much more often than just on criticals.

The reason why barbs kill fast period is because of crits. That has been the way of the barb since day 1. The damage of the dwarven axe is minimal over the heavy pick on not crits, and the extra damage on crits overtakes that difference.

With any weapon a barb is going to hit hard on a non-crit because of base numbers. The extra crits make the new pick far outdamage any dwarven axe. Plus normal picks do more damage on bursts and crits, etc.

So not factoring in Crits into this discussion is like going to do number 2 and not use toilet paper afterwards...it's ludicrous.

[Scalion]

The reason why barbs kill fast period is because of crits. That has been the way of the barb since day 1. The damage of the dwarven axe is minimal over the heavy pick on not crits, and the extra damage on crits overtakes that difference.

With any weapon a barb is going to hit hard on a non-crit because of base numbers. The extra crits make the new pick far outdamage any dwarven axe. Plus normal picks do more damage on bursts and crits, etc.

So not factoring in Crits into this discussion is like going to do number 2 and not use toilet paper afterwards...it's ludicrous.

But isn't this post about a two weapon fighter build?

Barbarians going two weapons is kinda silly, they don't have the feats for it and get more benefit from two handed weapons. Fighters have feats to spend on all the two weapon feats, plus greater focus/specialization, and still have feats to spare.

Fighters do not need to rely on crits for their damage. If I had to sum up the difference between fighter damage and barbarian damage, I would say that fighters hit a lot more but not quite as hard while barbarians hit harder. A duel wielding barb just doesn't make sense to me.

[spifflove]

The problem with rogue is that its great that someone has agro and mob and can backstab for big numbers. But if the mob focuses on you, lose the big backstab numbers.

Are they really putting in half-orcs etc, or just speculation? Grinding the same lowbie levels again is dreadfully boring.

You will still puncture them to death. There are other ways to keep your sneak attack bonus too but a two weapon rogue can't afford the feats. My point was a rogue trumps a ranger dex monkey because of the extra dps.

A human will enjoy enhancement bonuses to strength and con, and an extra feat over an elf, with no stat buy enhancement. Elves will have better standing saves vs enchantment, be able to use rapiers with larger crit ranges, and have a negligible one ac bonus.

Halfings will enjoy a 2 con bonus over humans at a loss of one feat and about 7 hp dps per round.

Dorfs will remain con kings while losing one point in strength and one enhancement vs the human. Their saves are overpowered. It would be amusing if they had to make a UMD check to use any magic item.

Half orcs will dominant fighters, rangers, and barbarians and may be worth even a 6 month wait for those of you with other characters to level. (although dorfs may still be superior d/t better hp and rage length)

[spifflove]

I have one question though:

Won't future mobs all be wearing heavy fort items making critting, backstabbing, and puncturing irrelevant altogether?

[Maldini]

I have one question though:

Won't future mobs all be wearing heavy fort items making critting, backstabbing, and puncturing irrelevant altogether?


What if they come out with items that reduce Fortification?

Touche spiff, touche.

[Maldini]

But isn't this post about a two weapon fighter build?

Barbarians going two weapons is kinda silly, they don't have the feats for it and get more benefit from two handed weapons. Fighters have feats to spend on all the two weapon feats, plus greater focus/specialization, and still have feats to spare.

Fighters do not need to rely on crits for their damage. If I had to sum up the difference between fighter damage and barbarian damage, I would say that fighters hit a lot more but not quite as hard while barbarians hit harder. A duel wielding barb just doesn't make sense to me.


What do you mean they don't have the feats for it? You take TWF, ITWF, and GTWF along with Powerattack and Improved Crit. It's not that hard to do.

Plus the damage coming from simultaneous Deathnips is just sick.

[Bromm]

First off this thread has been a good read.

Second i would go with a TWF 11 ranger/3 Pally Dwarf. Pure Barb is very nice but not very versitile.

Ranger/Pally gets Evasion, Huge boost to saves, LOH X 2(110 per at lvl14), Immune to Fear, Resist 30 and Protections, Barkskin, killer Ranged Damage, Heal wands, and a Huge amount of Skill points to max Spot, Jump, Balance, UMD, Swim/Intimidate.

Barb gets Rage and Improved Crit range, more HP(that you cant heal yourself)

Start with 17 str , 16 dex, 10 con, 9 int, 11 wis, 11 cha and eat a +1 of every tome if you can afford to if not then just Int, Dex and Wisdom.


Duel Wield D axes till you can actually get your hands on said Heavy Picks and use shards to respec your feats.

My plan was to duel weild Kopeshes since we'll be able to almost choose our end rewards from raids every 20 i was long term thinking 2 Kopeshes from DQ. Just think 1 point of life per hit and duel weilding :) ahh fountain of life.


Had to add my 2 cents.

Cheers

[Maldini]

First off this thread has been a good read.

Second i would go with a TWF 11 ranger/3 Pally Dwarf. Pure Barb is very nice but not very versitile.

Ranger/Pally gets Evasion, Huge boost to saves, LOH X 2(110 per at lvl14), Immune to Fear, Resist 30 and Protections, Barkskin, killer Ranged Damage, Heal wands, and a Huge amount of Skill points to max Spot, Jump, Balance, UMD, Swim/Intimidate.

Barb's don't need Evasion, we can get our Reflex over 20 in boosts and we can easily get elemental protection, so it's not an issue.

We can get our Fort saves over 30 easily and our Will saves in the 20's. We can drink Barkskin potions or get it from a Ranger. I have a 40 Jump unraged with an item. My balance is fine. Don't need intimidate because of my damage output. Swim is high because I have a 44 Strength. Don't need spot because I have a high listen skill. Don't really need UMD, but I could have put points into it.

Don't need LoH when I have a Cleric that I can keep aggro off of so that they can heal me. Therefore, I would roll a pure TWF barb over that combo you listed above. Mainly because I'm social and I like to play in parties and not solo all the time.



Barb gets Rage and Improved Crit range, more HP(that you cant heal yourself)


Potions. When rage wears off or I can dismiss rage and use my Black Dragon Armor Heal clicky and Battle Coins.



Start with 17 str , 16 dex, 10 con, 9 int, 11 wis, 11 cha and eat a +1 of every tome if you can afford to if not then just Int, Dex and Wisdom.


Barbs only have to worry about 3 stats, Str, Dex and Con. That's it. It's easy. We also have other people that can buff us up and heal us because we're a social class and play well with others.



Duel Wield D axes till you can actually get your hands on said Heavy Picks and use shards to respec your feats.


Picks have same crit range but higher multipler than Dwarven Axes. Therefore use good Picks over Dwarven Axes for the big crit numbers.



My plan was to duel weild Kopeshes since we'll be able to almost choose our end rewards from raids every 20 i was long term thinking 2 Kopeshes from DQ. Just think 1 point of life per hit and duel weilding :) ahh fountain of life.


Had to add my 2 cents.

Cheers

[spifflove]

I wouldnt count on being able to respec. As it stands Fred is a little hard headed. If he could offer, say, 3 respecs at once you could do it. Otherwise you will have to use 5 shards. The first two to change gthf and ithf to some some unwanted feat, another to change thf to twf, and another two to change the unwanted feats to itwf and gtwf.

[Bromm]

LOL well now you can play any type of character if you want to be in a full grp and SUCK mana just so you can do MAX dmg thats fine i was just offering a versitile charcter as some times it's not easy to always have a full grp around. I also like hte ability to save a party wipe if needed.



Re specing is for the Slashing Focus and Improved Crit Slashing to Pierce if you switch from D axes to Heavy Picks. 2 shards not 5. Read the posts before you go off. He wants a TWF i'm just saying if your going TWF and you only want MAX dmg go Barb i just offered my thoughts on a more rounded character.

Yes the Barb will out DMG me but i think i'll have more fun and be very close in DMG. Also i can be of use saving clerics mana buffing Characters like you with resists and save my plat and get a better high end AC with my Barkskin.

His call just laying out an option.

Yes anyone can slurp potions for barkskin/resists/protections but they take up space and cost alot of plat over time.

Not saying my character will out DMG your build just saying you might have more fun with mine with just a minor drop in DPS.

AS for Heavy Picks Vs Dwarven Axes he is going Dwarf so D Axes are better unless you have the Heavy Picks your talking about.

Untill then Heavy picks are 1-6 base VS Dwarven Axes with Enhancements 3-12 base

So average it out they are basicaly the same and D axes are very easy to come by UNLESS you have an uber set of Heavy Picks.

Yes at Very High End Heavy Picks vs D Axes Heavy Picks will win i agree.

Anyway make a character that siuts your style of play.

Above all else have fun it's just a game!