Help with second tier Rogue skills

[Agarwaen]

I am building my first Rogue, and am confounded by second-tier skill choices. By second tier, I mean:

Balance
Bluff
Diplomacy
Jump
Listen
Swim
Tumble

Even with my 16 Int, there is no way to max all of these. After maximizing the "critical" rogue skills (Open, DD, Hide, UMD, etc.), I will only have about 57 points left for the second tier. Can anyone give me advice on how many points I should try to put into each, and which can safely be ignored--if any?

I have searched the web for hours and hours trying to find any little scrap of a hint, but have had little success. There is a great deal of variation in peoples builds, but here is what little I think I have learned:

Balance should be as high as possible.
Bluff and diplomacy are very useful but not critical, and diplo is a little finicky about when it works. I could find no mention of how many points you need to make either one successful. It also seems that investing in the Subtle Sneak Attack enhancements might make Diplomacy unneeded.
Jump, Swim and Tumble will be ok if they are in the 12 range. Although it seems to me I could just ignore swim and pick up an underwater action item.
Listen is nearly useless, but that may not be the case after a future update.

Is any of that correct at all?

The reason this is so important to me is because this rogue will be part of a static group, and if I were forced to reroll it would put all my mates on hold. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I am going with a Drow Ranger2/Fighter2/Rogue 10 build similar to the Leesa build in a prior thread. Starting stats are:
S 12
D 17
C 12
I 16
W 10
Ch 12

For feats I am choosing (in order) Dodge, Finesse, TWF, Mobility, Imp. TWF, Skill Foc: UMD, Imp. Crit: Piercing, and Great TWF. Most of my enhancements will go toward improving the core Rogue skills (except Drow Melee, the Dex increases and Suble Sneak if I have enough points)

Thanks again for any input you can give me guys.

[The_Silver_Griffon]

Listen is nearly useless, but that may not be the case after a future update.



NEW - Monsters that are hiding or invisible can no longer be tab (or `) selected unless a player can detect the monster using their Spot or Listen skills.

It looks like listen is about to become much more important.

[KoboldKiller]

I find Tumble and Jump useful.

[Shamguard]

I am building my first Rogue, and am confounded by second-tier skill choices. By second tier, I mean:

Balance
Bluff
Diplomacy
Jump
Listen
Swim
Tumble

Even with my 16 Int, there is no way to max all of these. After maximizing the "critical" rogue skills (Open, DD, Hide, UMD, etc.), I will only have about 57 points left for the second tier. Can anyone give me advice on how many points I should try to put into each, and which can safely be ignored--if any?

<snip>

Balance should be as high as possible.
Bluff and diplomacy are very useful but not critical, and diplo is a little finicky about when it works. I could find no mention of how many points you need to make either one successful. It also seems that investing in the Subtle Sneak Attack enhancements might make Diplomacy unneeded.
Jump, Swim and Tumble will be ok if they are in the 12 range. Although it seems to me I could just ignore swim and pick up an underwater action item.
Listen is nearly useless, but that may not be the case after a future update.

Is any of that correct at all?

<snip>

Thanks again for any input you can give me guys.

Balance is nice against those annoying trip attacks, so a maxed balance is useful.

Tumble can be used in combat but not as usful as in PnP. The only benefit from tumble is to negate or lessen falling damage. A good feather fall items also works here, though you don't get the fun back flips and dive graphics you get with high tumble skill.:)

Jump is useful for getting around in some dungeons.

Some swim can be useful for a few dungeons but I prefer an underwater action item, this is a good dump skill for those skill points you just don't know what to do with.

Looks like Listen may make a come back in mod 5. I give it a wait and see, though some skill points wouldn't hurt.

Bluff & Diplomacy once again if you have an extra skill point you don't know where to dump, pick one. If you do dump skill points here I would recomend one or the other and not splitting skill points between them.

So on your rogue levels you will have 11 skill points to divide, ranger levels 9 skill points, and fighter 5 skill points. I would first try to max out any base skills (Search, Spot, DD, OL, UMD, Hide, Move Silent) that lagged on your non rogue levels then any extra points after that I would put into Balance, Jump, Listen, and Swim in that order. Try to catch up as many to max ranks as your mutt build will allow.

I hope this helps.

[Agarwaen]

Thank you, Shamguard. That was most helpful. Your comment about Tumble, however, has me wondering if my investment in Mobility might be a waste? I was envisioning my character hitting with a big sneak attack, then using Tumble/Mobility to keep away from him until his agro switches back to someone else, but maybe that isn't a good strategy.

Regarding Listen and Swim and Diplomacy, would it be beter to have 10 ranks in each, or leave out Diplo and have 15 in Listen and Swim? I am having a lot of trouble deciding between diverse proficiency and narrow excellence. :/

[Shamguard]

Thank you, Shamguard. That was most helpful. Your comment about Tumble, however, has me wondering if my investment in Mobility might be a waste? I was envisioning my character hitting with a big sneak attack, then using Tumble/Mobility to keep away from him until his agro switches back to someone else, but maybe that isn't a good strategy.

Regarding Listen and Swim and Diplomacy, would it be beter to have 10 ranks in each, or leave out Diplo and have 15 in Listen and Swim? I am having a lot of trouble deciding between diverse proficiency and narrow excellence. :/

Right now there is one dungeon (The Crucible) where swim really makes any difference and even then I feel it's limited. Listen in mod 5 is suppose to help in locating hidden mobs, a good spot does this already. Without knowing what this change is going to do in live play, it's hard to make that call. I don't use tumble in combat that much mainly because I tend to sneak attack from behind the fighters. I find the mechanic for switching in and out of tumble mode cumbersome at best, but it may just be me. A feather fall item is much better to prevent the falling damage though. If you have no problem with the use of tumble in combat then do put some ranks in it, but be careful where you tumble to when you have the agro.:) Fighters hate having to chase down mobs running after wayward rogues and rangers.:)

As long as you can keep the basics maxed it's hard to go to far wrong with your secondary skills. They do tend to be more character flavor than function.

But most of all remember to have fun.

[Fennario]

If you have no problem with the use of tumble in combat then do put some ranks in it, but be careful where you tumble to when you have the agro.:) Fighters hate having to chase down mobs running after wayward rogues and rangers.:)


That's where Diplomacy can come in handy. Diplo the uglies right back to the fighters and stab them in the back.:)

[Riekan]

Don't skimp on tumble. In the Reaver raid, gravity gets reversed and you slam into the ceiling taking damage. Then it corrects itself and you get slammed into the floor taking damage. Feather fall does not work when gravity is reversing, so tumble is all you've got and healing in the air to stay alive.

[Roguewiz]

I am building my first Rogue, and am confounded by second-tier skill choices. By second tier, I mean:

Balance
Bluff
Diplomacy
Jump
Listen
Swim
Tumble

Even with my 16 Int, there is no way to max all of these. After maximizing the "critical" rogue skills (Open, DD, Hide, UMD, etc.), I will only have about 57 points left for the second tier. Can anyone give me advice on how many points I should try to put into each, and which can safely be ignored--if any?

I have searched the web for hours and hours trying to find any little scrap of a hint, but have had little success. There is a great deal of variation in peoples builds, but here is what little I think I have learned:

Balance should be as high as possible.
Bluff and diplomacy are very useful but not critical, and diplo is a little finicky about when it works. I could find no mention of how many points you need to make either one successful. It also seems that investing in the Subtle Sneak Attack enhancements might make Diplomacy unneeded.
Jump, Swim and Tumble will be ok if they are in the 12 range. Although it seems to me I could just ignore swim and pick up an underwater action item.
Listen is nearly useless, but that may not be the case after a future update.

Is any of that correct at all?

The reason this is so important to me is because this rogue will be part of a static group, and if I were forced to reroll it would put all my mates on hold. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I am going with a Drow Ranger2/Fighter2/Rogue 10 build similar to the Leesa build in a prior thread. Starting stats are:
S 12
D 17
C 12
I 16
W 10
Ch 12

For feats I am choosing (in order) Dodge, Finesse, TWF, Mobility, Imp. TWF, Skill Foc: UMD, Imp. Crit: Piercing, and Great TWF. Most of my enhancements will go toward improving the core Rogue skills (except Drow Melee, the Dex increases and Suble Sneak if I have enough points)

Thanks again for any input you can give me guys.

I personally view Rogue skills as the following: (For DDO only, for PnP, that changes because Hide/Move Silently are more useful..thus, not broken)

Primary Skills: Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, Spot, UMD, Balance
Secondary Skills: Jump, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Listen
Tertiary Skills: Haggle, Diplomacy, Buff

Just IMO at least.

[daniel7]

I think it is nice to have one of the following: bluff, intimidate or diplomacy for npcs. A rogue should take diplomacy since you can use it on a whole mob. You might need jump to get to trap boxes. Everyone benefits from balance and it should be a must a for you since you are a melee type, a some what squishy melee type as a twf. Like it was said before, although listen isnt used that much right now it seems like it a rogue skill that might one day be expected from you. Hide and move silently I think are almost worthless most of the time. My favorite rogue build of mine didnt put a single point into that ****. You couldnt get a party to wait on you to sneak around anyways. And one day there might be a quest that sneak might be helpful but not neccesary. I have one rogue that has tumble and my main rogue doesnt. I dont actively use it but its not a waste for reasons already stated. Some skills you dont have to max out for them to be useful.Cant chose b/t jump and balance? Do both. Where as balance is more useful then jump for instance you will have a high dex modifier but a low str modifier so feel free to put a point into balance one level and jump the other. Anyways I hope I said something useful here. Have fun with your build.
Eternal level 13 rogue(first build)
Adept level 11/3 rogue/paladin

[daniel7]

Oh and two more things. Swim, heal, and repair are not useful for any class(i noticed you had swim up there). But also remember you can use rogue action boost to help you swim, jump, and sell stuff. Oh also I think that int is only important to rogues for skill points not for actually searching or disabling devices. In the long run an int of 16 or 10 is only +3 to these skills. No big deal. So when you roll up a rogue just find out how many skill points you need.

[Hvymetal]

The thing is with a lot of these skills they don't have to be maxed to be effective. (Although personally I like having a high Diplomacy because it won't work on high level stuff with a low value and same with bluff). Listen also, as mentioned earlier just figured to get more important along with spot.