With the change to /death

[Cowdenicus]

I am requesting a potion to cure feeblemind.

Currently, the only way to cure it is to die, or to have the heal spell cast on you. Well if you are the cleric and get feebleminded in a quest you are basically screwed, because you have to die (xp penalty), get zoned out of the quest (-20% xp), and hope you can make it back to the quest.

A potion to cure the effect can solve the issue.

[Hvymetal]

One other way, have a 9th Level or above Pally w/ the 2nd level of the soverign(sp?) host enhancement it cures feeblemind also supposedly haven't had to try it yet.

[BUpcott]

One other way, have a 9th Level or above Pally w/ the 2nd level of the soverign(sp?) host enhancement it cures feeblemind also supposedly haven't had to try it yet.

I does cure it. And you don't need it on a pally, clerics get the enhancement as well and you can self cast it even with feeblemind ;)

[Hvymetal]

I does cure it. And you don't need it on a pally, clerics get the enhancement as well and you can self cast it even with feeblemind ;)Cool didn't know it worked on yourself when you are feebleminded, my Pally just got a bit more self-sufficient:)

[BUpcott]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

Even lizards eat and drink.

EDIT: Ninja'd a dev! woot not bad for my first

[Eladrin]

I am requesting a potion to cure feeblemind.

Currently, the only way to cure it is to die, or to have the heal spell cast on you. Well if you are the cleric and get feebleminded in a quest you are basically screwed, because you have to die (xp penalty), get zoned out of the quest (-20% xp), and hope you can make it back to the quest.

A potion to cure the effect can solve the issue.
Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

[Klattuu]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

Ironically though that while feebleminded I can select wands, aim, and shoot without difficulty or drink any other potion without an issue so in the current state of the rules I don't see an issue.

[bobbryan2]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

Or... you could just let us /death. :D

But Im' just of the opinion that no effect should be worse than death. Changing this, ceases to allow dominate/flesh to stone/feeblemind, etc to willingly degrade their status to dead.

So.. if the purpose was to make all these conditions worse than death.... then mission accomplished.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I am requesting a potion to cure feeblemind.

Currently, the only way to cure it is to die, or to have the heal spell cast on you. Well if you are the cleric and get feebleminded in a quest you are basically screwed, because you have to die (xp penalty), get zoned out of the quest (-20% xp), and hope you can make it back to the quest.

A potion to cure the effect can solve the issue.

That's why I loved feebleminding clerics in PnP :D Usually they made their saves but when they didn't...ouch. You do carry a sword right? Enjoy tanking until you die or hit a shrine :D



Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

Eh, you already let them drink every other potion and function fully. In D&D with an Int of 1 most DMs I know would have treated them like retards, kinda like you do with a CHR of 1.

I don't have a bit problem with my cleric staying stupid until he dies or hits a shrine. If there are no UMD types with a scroll then I should have to wait for a tavern or shrine.

[Shade]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?


If the target creature fails a Will saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex), its Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm), limited wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm), miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm), or wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) or a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard), takes a -4 penalty on its saving throw.

So out of those, only one we have is heal.
So another cleric could heal it. If none in the party, someone could use a heal scroll on the cleric to cure it (anyone with 20+ umd can do that, given enough rolls)
If no one has the spell or enough umd, theres still a way.. Infact the cleric can cure it himself. Simply aquire the black dragonscale armor and activate it to heal youself. Or another party member with said armor can do it.

While id like potions of heal... Without some serious restrictions they would be very overpowered in the current game. Maybe if they only dropped in stacks of say 5, as ultra rare loot, like +2 tome rare.. And weighed so much that only a 40+ str barbarian could even carry them, perhaps theyd be good... But as a regular potion... would make it a bit too easy for the tanks to stay alive.

Feeblemind is not currently a big deal, as such time to implement some change because of the /death change is not warranted.

ivIts not like we can't die. If the cleric has feeblemidn and wants to die to fix it, that really isn't a problem. All the melees have to do is pull over some mobs and let him get the **** beat out of him. Its funnier then /death and just as effective.

[BUpcott]

So out of those, only one we have is heal.
So another cleric could heal it. If none in the party, someone could use a heal scroll on the cleric to cure it (anyone with 20+ umd can do that, given enough rolls)
If no one has the spell or enough umd, theres still a way.. Infact the cleric can cure it himself. Simply aquire the black dragonscale armor and activate it to heal youself. Or another party member with said armor can do it.

While id like potions of heal... Without some serious restrictions they would be very overpowered in the current game. Maybe if they only dropped in stacks of say 5, as ultra rare loot, like +2 tome rare.. And weighed so much that only a 40+ str barbarian could even carry them, perhaps theyd be good... But as a regular potion... would make it a bit too easy for the tanks to stay alive.

Feeblemind is not currently a big deal, as such time to implement some change because of the /death change is not warranted.

ivIts not like we can't die. If the cleric has feeblemidn and wants to die to fix it, that really isn't a problem. All the melees have to do is pull over some mobs and let him get the **** beat out of him. Its funnier then /death and just as effective.

Not asking for a 'HEAL' potion but rather a 'cure feeblemind potion'. So in theory it wouldn't be over powering if it was restricted to curing feeblemind.

[BlueLightBandit]

How about a -cleanse- potion... where you receive all of the curative effects of -heal- without all that silly healing.

[Kalanth]

Hmmm... Feeblemind...

Support your local dragon marked halfling and ask them for the cure. :)

[Riddikulus]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?
Any particular reason why you can't just make shrines cure feeblemind?

Edit: I always thought it was goofy that you can get feebleminded in Tempest Spine on Normal, which is below the level that clerics can cure feeblemind.

[Eladrin]

While id like potions of heal... Without some serious restrictions they would be very overpowered in the current game.
Whatever does come out of this, it won't be potions of heal.

I'm not particularly fond of effects that render some characters permanently-until-fixed, not-dead, but unplayable, even if "that's the rules!". Feeblemind may end up with occasional re-saves (Like Flesh to Stone), just so eventually it will go away if you don't have a friendly Cleric, Sov. Host Paladin, or UMD class with you on a long quest.


How about a -cleanse- potion... where you receive all of the curative effects of -heal- without all that silly healing.
The effect you're looking for is "Panacea", also too high level to fit into a potion. Certainly a worthwhile spell to put on "the list" though.

[binnsr]

Its not like we can't die. If the cleric has feeblemidn and wants to die to fix it, that really isn't a problem. All the melees have to do is pull over some mobs and let him get the **** beat out of him. Its funnier then /death and just as effective.

Even this isn't foolproof .. better hope you let your cleric incap while getting the snot beat out of him..

[Eladrin]

Any particular reason why you can't just make shrines cure feeblemind?

Edit: I always thought it was goofy that you can get feebleminded in Tempest Spine on Normal, which is below the level that clerics can cure feeblemind.
Good question. Maybe that's the simplest solution of them all.

[Tanka]

Any particular reason why you can't just make shrines cure feeblemind?

Edit: I always thought it was goofy that you can get feebleminded in Tempest Spine on Normal, which is below the level that clerics can cure feeblemind.
Well, if you have a Cleric with you, they can make a Caster Level check to use a Heal scroll. Might take a couple of tries, but they'll get it eventually.

[tihocan]

There is other stuff that makes your character permanently unplayable until he dies: negative levels and blindness. And, to a lesser extent, Bestow Curse (once it can be "cured" by death).
In these situations, /death seems like a valid tactics to me. It has the same effect as finding a group of mob (or some high enough fall) to kill you, and is less cumbersome. I'd really prefer if it stayed that way.

[Palmetto]

Well, if you have a Cleric with you, they can make a Caster Level check to use a Heal scroll. Might take a couple of tries, but they'll get it eventually.
If the cleric is below lvl 9 then he can't even put the scroll in his hand. ;)

[Riddikulus]

Well, if you have a Cleric with you, they can make a Caster Level check to use a Heal scroll. Might take a couple of tries, but they'll get it eventually.
I'd prefer that they just eliminate heal scrolls. Seriously.

[Tanka]

If the cleric is below lvl 9 then he can't even put the scroll in his hand. ;)
Shows how much I know about Clerics. :p

(I've tried my hand at two. I'm not a caster-player.)

[BUpcott]

There is other stuff that makes your character permanently unplayable until he dies: negative levels and blindness. And, to a lesser extent, Bestow Curse (once it can be "cured" by death).
In these situations, /death seems like a valid tactics to me. It has the same effect as finding a group of mob (or some high enough fall) to kill you, and is less cumbersome. I'd really prefer if it stayed that way.

you can already drink a pot for blindness. And even a cleric with X neg levels can still cast restoration to get rid of those levels. The /death tactic for neg levels was just to save sp, 1 rez would cost less than a couple restorations.

[Riddikulus]

Shows how much I know about Clerics. :p

(I've tried my hand at two. I'm not a caster-player.)
Of course at that point you could argue a level 8 cleric shouldn't be in a level 10-12 quest.

[Tanka]

Of course at that point you could argue a level 8 cleric shouldn't be in a level 10-12 quest.
They should absolutely be in TS on Normal. It used to be the XP farm run for 7-10.

But at that time, Feeblemind wasn't in the game, so you didn't have to worry about it. Now you need at least one L9 Cleric to get rid of it, and maybe two just in case the Cleric gets it.

Easier if you go 8-11, but the 11s in the group tear away some XP.

Eh, whatever. Perhaps they should strip Feeblemind out of TSN/TSH and leave it in TSE.

[Mirta]

Whatever does come out of this, it won't be potions of heal.

I'm not particularly fond of effects that render some characters permanently-until-fixed, not-dead, but unplayable, even if "that's the rules!". Feeblemind may end up with occasional re-saves (Like Flesh to Stone), just so eventually it will go away if you don't have a friendly Cleric, Sov. Host Paladin, or UMD class with you on a long quest.


The effect you're looking for is "Panacea", also too high level to fit into a potion. Certainly a worthwhile spell to put on "the list" though.

Not like this game strictly follows the rules anyway. So many rules are broken to pimp out mobs. Why not break one or two to actually benefit us players? Just give us heal potions and be done with it.

[Tanka]

Not like this game strictly follows the rules anyway. So many rules are broken to pimp out mobs. Why not break one or two to actually benefit us players? Just give us heal potions and be done with it.
Uh, because a 100pt refresh would be stupid broken if it came in potion form?

[BUpcott]

Not like this game strictly follows the rules anyway. So many rules are broken to pimp out mobs. Why not break one or two to actually benefit us players? Just give us heal potions and be done with it.

Cause that is highly overpowered. A potion that heals 100+ HP!

[tihocan]

you can already drink a pot for blindness.
Obviously. However at low levels there are many people (mostly new players) who do not necessarily carry them.


And even a cleric with X neg levels can still cast restoration to get rid of those levels.
You don't necessarily have a cleric with you.


The /death tactic for neg levels was just to save sp, 1 rez would cost less than a couple restorations.
And my point is, you can still die by other ways in order to achieve the same goal, it's just going to be a bit more annoying. Whatever this change is supposed to fix, I doubt there was no other way to do it...

[rpasell]

There is other stuff that makes your character permanently unplayable until he dies: negative levels and blindness. And, to a lesser extent, Bestow Curse (once it can be "cured" by death).
In these situations, /death seems like a valid tactics to me. It has the same effect as finding a group of mob (or some high enough fall) to kill you, and is less cumbersome. I'd really prefer if it stayed that way.

There is so much wrong with this. Does everyone just want an "Easy Button" for everything? Do you really think you should win everytime? /death because you have curse on you is silly. A potion of curse is a simple thing to carry around. Negative levels? Good for the mob that did it to you. I ran around the Catacombs (I think it was Catacombs maybe it was Necro) with 3 negative levels till I could shrine each one away. I couldn't hit much, but I made it. Blindness? Again carry a potion, or use blindness ward. It's not like getting a blindness ward item is difficult, they drop like candy.

Maybe your right though, maybe there should be no strategy or preparation needed in the game. Maybe it should be a game where all you have to do is run around wildly swinging and casting at everything in sight, nothing ever fights back, and we can all blissfully power level our way to cap without ever facing a challenge. What.........World of Warcraft already does that? Oh sorry didn't know.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm not particularly fond of effects that render some characters permanently-until-fixed, not-dead, but unplayable,.

good point



Any particular reason why you can't just make shrines cure feeblemind?
.


Good question. Maybe that's the simplest solution of them all.

Excellent idea. I think feeblemind should hurt a lot but as Eladrin said, no point making a char completely unplayable. This is a great compromise and is constant with how DDO now treats some other long term disabling effects.

[BUpcott]

Obviously. However at low levels there are many people (mostly new players) who do not necessarily carry them.


You don't necessarily have a cleric with you.


And my point is, you can still die by other ways in order to achieve the same goal, it's just going to be a bit more annoying. Whatever this change is supposed to fix, I doubt there was no other way to do it...

considering the idea of this thread leaned more towards a cleric getting feebleminded and not being able to take care of it with a heal scroll, having another cleric cast heal, etc etc

[Riddikulus]

Cause that is highly overpowered. A potion that heals 100+ HP!
It's not any more overpowered than a stack of 200 CSW pots.

[BUpcott]

It's not any more overpowered than a stack of 200 CSW pots.

Yes it is. 4-5 CSW pots would equal 1 heal pot. Better yet why not just give every class a couple 100 point LoHs.

[Tanka]

I understand that.

But having 200 CSW pots (per slot mind you) is broken overpowered anyway, so what's the big deal about heal?
Because a CSW is ~25HP. Every six seconds.

A Heal is 100HP. Every six seconds.

100HP is a far, far bigger buffer than 25HP. If you're soloing or trying to get your party to a Rez shrine by your lonesome, popping one of those is much, much better than popping 5 CSWs over the course of half a minute.

It's returns. One 100HP pot means I can continue swinging unabated without any issue. Five 25HP pots is at least 5 seconds where I'm not swinging, and probably more because you're running away to heal up.

Ed: Ninja!

[Riddikulus]

Yes it is. 4-5 CSW pots would equal 1 heal pot. Better yet why not just give every class a couple 100 point LoHs.
I understand that.

But having 200 CSW pots (per slot mind you) is broken overpowered anyway, so what's the big deal about heal?


But that's beside my main point anyway... All of these should just be eliminated. You can buy CLW pots, maybe CMW pots and that's it. Every other kind of healing should be a limited treasure item IMO.

[binnsr]

I understand that.

But having 200 CSW pots (per slot mind you) is broken overpowered anyway, so what's the big deal about heal?


But that's beside my main point anyway... All of these should just be eliminated. You can buy CLW pots, maybe CMW pots and that's it. Every other kind of healing should be a limited treasure item IMO.

First, you can only have 100 pots in a stack (my potion-packing fighter knows that!)
Second, if they removed cure serious potions, it would put an even bigger strain on the resources of clerics. My ability to self-heal would be nixed because I'm not going to refill my 350hp self on cure light wounds potions. Besides, if you thought it was silly to carry 200 CSW pots, just imagine if folks were packing 600 CLW pots instead?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I understand that.

But having 200 CSW pots (per slot mind you) is broken overpowered anyway, so what's the big deal about heal?


But that's beside my main point anyway... All of these should just be eliminated. You can buy CLW pots, maybe CMW pots and that's it. Every other kind of healing should be a limited treasure item IMO.

I'd agree with that if we had the HP we are supposed to. Unfortunately this game has turned into HP madness and we are running around with the hitpoints a diety should have. We therefore need more access to healing potions than you would expect in D&D.

Part of me wouldn't mind seeing healing scrolls and cure serious wands dispear from the vendors. I do enjoy using them but if they didn't exist it would make the players more self reliant and possibly more careful. (eh, who am i kidding)

[Tanka]

But that's beside my main point anyway... All of these should just be eliminated. You can buy CLW pots, maybe CMW pots and that's it. Every other kind of healing should be a limited treasure item IMO.
Since this was added after I replied, I'm addressing it separately.

The Craft Potion feat allows spells of up to 3rd level be made into potions. Which is up to CSW potions.

So there's the reason CSWs exist -- because they exist in PnP as per the crafting feat's specifications. It's why no Cure Crit pots exist.

[samhuinn]

So out of those, only one we have is heal.
So another cleric could heal it. If none in the party, someone could use a heal scroll on the cleric to cure it (anyone with 20+ umd can do that, given enough rolls)
If no one has the spell or enough umd, theres still a way.. Infact the cleric can cure it himself. Simply aquire the black dragonscale armor and activate it to heal youself. Or another party member with said armor can do it.

While id like potions of heal... Without some serious restrictions they would be very overpowered in the current game. Maybe if they only dropped in stacks of say 5, as ultra rare loot, like +2 tome rare.. And weighed so much that only a 40+ str barbarian could even carry them, perhaps theyd be good... But as a regular potion... would make it a bit too easy for the tanks to stay alive.


Of the spells listed (why doesn't it quote your quote??) the only other one we are even high enough to cast is Limited Wish (Sorc/Wiz 7), all the others are 9th level spells. I don't see why this spell can't be implemented in a limited fashion. Would give another viable and less costly option to Feeblemind and add a fairly standard D&D spell to the game.


Limited Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost

300 XP or more (see above).

Obviously some adjustments would have to be made, but seems like a decent option to me.

[Riddikulus]

First, you can only have 100 pots in a stack (my potion-packing fighter knows that!)
I stand corrected. I must have them confused with something else.


Second, if they removed cure serious potions, it would put an even bigger strain on the resources of clerics.
No it wouldn't. It would force people to use better tactics or die. It would be a painful transition, but it would happen eventually.


My ability to self-heal would be nixed because I'm not going to refill my 350hp self on cure light wounds potions. Besides, if you thought it was silly to carry 200 CSW pots, just imagine if folks were packing 600 CLW pots instead?
I'd be all for just eliminating the vendors altogether, turning them all into brokers instead. So you won't have a problem with 600 CLW pots either. ;)

[ahpook]

I am requesting a potion to cure feeblemind.

Currently, the only way to cure it is to die, or to have the heal spell cast on you. Well if you are the cleric and get feebleminded in a quest you are basically screwed, because you have to die (xp penalty), get zoned out of the quest (-20% xp), and hope you can make it back to the quest.

A potion to cure the effect can solve the issue.

Well, this is misleading because you don't have to /death first. Simply recall. Get healed at a tavern and run back. No death penalty. Just 'cause you used to /death to solve the problem doesn't mean you still have to. I wouldn't mind a means to cure feeblemind but this comment hit my nitpick radar.


Whatever does come out of this, it won't be potions of heal.

I'm not particularly fond of effects that render some characters permanently-until-fixed, not-dead, but unplayable,

I don't know why you would have a problem with this. Death is unplayable (and due to the graphics much more irritating) and we are (obviously) OK with that. Last night our bard died in the first 10 feet of the dungeon and we had to drag him along through the first half of the quest until we found a shrine. I doubt that was any more fun more for him than if he followed along due to feeblemindedness.

[Tanka]

I'd be all for just eliminating the vendors altogether, turning them all into brokers instead. So you won't have a problem with 600 CLW pots either. ;)
I think the game needs more money sinks, not less.

This means keeping potions in. And I feel people should carry potions, but most don't. I keep 300 CSW on my fighter. I burn through about 150 when soloing WK and Chains.

When restocking that many in the desert (bad choice, but I'm too lazy to run out to House K or J), it costs me about 20kpp+. And that's not even counting Haste potions.

[binnsr]

With 4 L14 chars I think I just had a noob moment... Are the prices of potions/wands/scrolls not the same at every vendor?

*shakes head* man I need to pay more attention to the little details...

lol.. you're not the only one :D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

When restocking that many in the desert (bad choice, but I'm too lazy to run out to House K or J), it costs me about 20kpp+. And that's not even counting Haste potions.

With 4 L14 chars I think I just had a noob moment... Are the prices of potions/wands/scrolls not the same at every vendor?

*shakes head* man I need to pay more attention to the little details...

[Tanka]

With 4 L14 chars I think I just had a noob moment... Are the prices of potions/wands/scrolls not the same at every vendor?

*shakes head* man I need to pay more attention to the little details...
Yup. If you've done certain quests, each House and the Marketplace gives you a discount (and I think the Harbor too). House K's is CoK, and the potions afterwards are about 80pp with Cha 6 and 0 Haggle. Cha 12, Haggle 13 item, a GH and a Good Luck 2 (Head of Good Fortune) brings it to ~78pp for one (if memory serves, I'll double check tonight).

In the Desert, they're about 82pp per after all those buffs.

Ed: My memory might be off, actually. Maths not adding up. Or I'm not paying attention to my own cash and 150 CSWs isn't 20kpp. Closer to 12kpp.

[Ustice]

Good question. Maybe that's the simplest solution of them all.

There is a problem with this. What if the cleric gets it twice? Since you can only use the rest shrine once, it prevents this from being a viable solution.

There are several possible solutions:

Have some items that have the Heal affect (maybe a rod/staff?)
Have a periodic save, although I do not like this since it would mean that you just sit around and wait while your cleric puts his head on straight. That could slow the game down considerably.
Change the rest shrine mechanics so that they can be used multiple times (Like Rez shrines). This will of course take a bit of a rethink. Maybe have a 1 in 6 chance of a random mob spawn (and interupt the rest) when resting, but you can use it several times. It would certainly help with the problem for clerics needing so many wands and scrolls.

[GramercyRiff]

Good question. Maybe that's the simplest solution of them all.

Perhaps, when you guys make a change, you should think of that changes ramifications first.

[Dragonhyde]

Whatever does come out of this, it won't be potions of heal.

I'm not particularly fond of effects that render some characters permanently-until-fixed, not-dead, but unplayable, even if "that's the rules!". Feeblemind may end up with occasional re-saves (Like Flesh to Stone), just so eventually it will go away if you don't have a friendly Cleric, Sov. Host Paladin, or UMD class with you on a long quest.


The effect you're looking for is "Panacea", also too high level to fit into a potion. Certainly a worthwhile spell to put on "the list" though.

So we will be changing the game mechanics to make it easier and less challenging by adding potions to get rid of all bad things. There are already several ways to get a cure for feeblemind. I even have a halfling fighter who can cast heal from his dragonmark.

[Katrina]

If the cleric is below lvl 9 then he can't even put the scroll in his hand. ;)

Not to be nitpicky but the minimum level is 7 for a heal scroll. You can use one on a successful caster check. I forget how the roll works but as I was moving my lowbie cleric through the levels I could heal on a roll over 10.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Perhaps, when you guys make a change, you should think of that changes ramifications first.

That is why it's on a beta server. The best way to ferret out the truly important ramifications is to throw them out there and see what sticks.

[Capstern]

Does anyone have any idea about what would happen to Kargon if we gave him a potion to cure feeblemind?

[Alavatar]

Am I mis-reading something? I thought that Feeblemind only affected INT and CHA. If WIS is not affected, then why can't clerics cast Heal on themselves?

[Tanka]

Am I mis-reading something? I thought that Feeblemind only affected INT and CHA. If WIS is not affected, then why can't clerics cast Heal on themselves?
It stops spellcasting ability as well.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?I must strongly disagree. Feeblemind is a high level magic malady and it takes a party Cleric or Brother/Sister to remove it. If you add a potion to cure it, people will next be asking for Potions of Greater Restoration for their 10 negative levels. Then Potions of Raise Dead. :mad: (aside from once a year, semi-rare jelly cakes. those are neat-o. :) )

There are still MANY ways to die in a quest without /death if you have no Cleric in the party and don't want to exit/reenter the quest. Please don't pander to the mob just because they haven't thought outside of their /death box.

I also disagree with Feeblemind being removed by a Shrine. Death should NOT be the only recourse. I do, however, agree with Arcanes needing a spell that will remove it. As Shade said, in PnP we have Limited Wish and Wish. I understand that we will probably never get those in DDO, but maybe Greater Dispel Magic or Break Enchantment could also remove Feeblemind.

[tihocan]

There is so much wrong with this. Does everyone just want an "Easy Button" for everything? Do you really think you should win everytime? /death because you have curse on you is silly.
The fact is, if devs didn't want us to die on purpose to get rid of this kind of negative effects, these effects would just not disappear when dying. Note how they instead changed Curse to be removed when dying... so we can purposedly die when we want to get rid of it.

This change to /death will not prevent us from dying on purpose in such situations, and thus does not "fix" anything for this. There must be other exploits involved and changing /death must have been the easy way to fix them.

So my complaint was mainly that, instead of doing whatever needs to be done to fix these exploits, they changed /death, resulting in giving us player more trouble with no effective change in gameplay mechanics (since we can still find ways to die when we want to).

[Shamguard]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Edit: Though I'm not entirely sure what the specifics will end up being. Can someone with the intellect of a lizard know which potion to drink, or should someone feed it to them?

I don't know about that, but I see managers drink from the right coffee pot every morning.:D
Of course they only have a couple to choose between.:cool:

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This change to /death will not prevent us from dying on purpose in such situations, and thus does not "fix" anything for this. There must be other exploits involved and changing /death must have been the easy way to fix them.).

Whatever their intent, stopping this silly play is a good side benefit.

What they were stopping, just from the things I know of, are at least three cases where it was easier to make it through an area while dead and being carried by an evasion build. At least one of these cases allowed for the easier completion of a raid.

[Riddikulus]

There is a problem with this. What if the cleric gets it twice? Since you can only use the rest shrine once, it prevents this from being a viable solution.
If the cleric is getting feebleminded more than once per shrine, then there are other issues at play here.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

[Shade]

It was posted in another thread..

While incap you will be able to /death and not auto release.

As such, just going into a fight with suicide in mind will have the same results as the old /death, so the elimination of this tactic doesn't result in a new problem of someone stuck feeblemind for a long time, it requires a more realistic way of getting killed.

Anyways, just posting because im not a fan of making up new rules because someone thinks that something maybe might be bad in some case in the future here.. Let there be a precident before you make new rules imo. I doubt there will be.

[Jaggie]

I'm going to miss my random acts of /death in the market place. and my random acts of evilness by /death in front of permadeathers. Was so much fun. and the exp dept was worth it.
Now I just have to find new and more creative ways of dieing in front of them. >:3

[Palmetto]

Not to be nitpicky but the minimum level is 7 for a heal scroll. You can use one on a successful caster check. I forget how the roll works but as I was moving my lowbie cleric through the levels I could heal on a roll over 10.
The minimum lvl on a raise dead scroll is 7. Are you sure the minimum lvl on heal is also 7? I thought it was 9.

[Riddikulus]

The minimum lvl on a raise dead scroll is 7. Are you sure the minimum lvl on heal is also 7? I thought it was 9.
You are correct.

[Cowdenicus]

Not to be nitpicky but the minimum level is 7 for a heal scroll. You can use one on a successful caster check. I forget how the roll works but as I was moving my lowbie cleric through the levels I could heal on a roll over 10.

Heal is a level 6 spell. So min caster level check starts at 9 not 7.

[Cowdenicus]

Listen all, I am just going off what I see on Risia.

I am not happy with the change to the new mechanic, but it is going live. I am just reporting on some possible issues I see.

A cleric running around with feeblemind is debilitating to a group, yes there MAY be other options of curing it, other than the heal spell (Arcanes are supposed to be able to cure feeblemind also but have no way of doing it in game at the present time).

Yes maybe asking for additional saves may not be strictly accurate according to P&P or having a potion of cure feeblemind may not be in P&P also, but limited wish is in there, and not in game.

True if you found a halfling who spent three feats on the dragon mark and hasnt used all of their heals already, or found a paladin in group who happened to go with one specific line on enhancements and they are in party you might be in luck. Otherwise you are out of luck.

I guess my point is this, in P&P there are 4 ways to cure feeblemind, in DDO we will never see 3 of them. All I am asking for is a second common way to cure it.

[Cowdenicus]

Well, if you have a Cleric with you, they can make a Caster Level check to use a Heal scroll. Might take a couple of tries, but they'll get it eventually.

Incorrect.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Well, if you have a Cleric with you, they can make a Caster Level check to use a Heal scroll. Might take a couple of tries, but they'll get it eventually.

Incorrect.How is that incorrect?

[Palmetto]

I guess my point is this, in P&P there are 4 ways to cure feeblemind, in DDO we will never see 3 of them. All I am asking for is a second common way to cure it.
Just currious (and lazy), what are they?

[Riddikulus]

How is that incorrect?
Well it's incorrect only if the cleric is below level 9... can't even wield the scroll in that case.

[roughdoughnut]

i got 4 ways to cure a cleric of feeblemind in a quest

have the other cleric in the group do it
have the bard in the group use a scroll
have the rogue in the group use a scroll
have the sorceror in the group use a scroll

i havent read all the posts but has anyone mentioned this yet?

such a minor issue should be overlooked

[Mad_Bombardier]

Well it's incorrect only if the cleric is below level 9... can't even wield the scroll in that case.That I understand. A conditional note is acceptable. A blanket "incorrect" is just as wrong.

A positive note with this change is that, in those few cases where death is the only recourse, it forces us to die in fun and creative ways. :D

[Cowdenicus]

How is that incorrect?

because if the cleric is feebleminded, they cannot use scrolls period.

[BUpcott]

because if the cleric is feebleminded, they cannot use scrolls period.

I think they were implying another cleric.

[Cowdenicus]

Thank you.

no worries.

/double Ninja.

[Cowdenicus]

Just currious (and lazy), what are they?

Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, Wish.

[Palmetto]

Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, Wish.
Thank you.

[Cowdenicus]

Well it's incorrect only if the cleric is below level 9... can't even wield the scroll in that case.

if the cleric is feebleminded, they cannot use a scroll. they cannot use a wand, they cannot cast anything.

[Riddikulus]

if the cleric is feebleminded, they cannot use a scroll. they cannot use a wand, they cannot cast anything.
Well as I found out with the other thread and the Restless Isle case, if you have a feebleminded cleric, have him zerg & die, then you can take his stone to a rez shrine.

I'd prefer they just add cure feeblemind to the shrines and that will be that.

[Cowdenicus]

I think they were implying another cleric.

Well if you have 2 clerics in a group, I guess then it is not as big a problem, but that does not seem to be a very common occurance.

[Mad_Bombardier]

because if the cleric is feebleminded, they cannot use scrolls period.Again, a conditional negative. In that case, we have Greater Dragonmark Halflings and UMD Bards/Palys/Rogues/Sorcs.

[Riddikulus]

Again, a conditional negative. In that case, we have Greater Dragonmark Halflings and UMD Bards/Palys/Rogues/Sorcs.
Unless you are a party of 8th levels doing TS normal. :D

[Cowdenicus]

That I understand. A conditional note is acceptable. A blanket "incorrect" is just as wrong.

A positive note with this change is that, in those few cases where death is the only recourse, it forces us to die in fun and creative ways. :D

or they could put on another save, or they could create a pot to cure this ailment, or they could let a rest shrine cure it.

Listen, I dont want some huge boon here for the gamers. All I want is a secondary way to cure a status ailment that we should have 4 ways to cure, but do not, (and odds are really really good will not get as I do not see the wish or miracle lines making it into game.)

[Cowdenicus]

Well as I found out with the other thread and the Restless Isle case, if you have a feebleminded cleric, have him zerg & die, then you can take his stone to a rez shrine.

I'd prefer they just add cure feeblemind to the shrines and that will be that.

If they added cure feeblemind to shrines I wouldn't mind it as much, but there is still the entire finding a new way to die thing.

[Cowdenicus]

Again, a conditional negative. In that case, we have Greater Dragonmark Halflings and UMD Bards/Palys/Rogues/Sorcs.


True, but since I am pretesting the new content, I figured it was kinda my job to bring up the issues I see coming with new content.

[blakbyrd]

Of the spells listed (why doesn't it quote your quote??) the only other one we are even high enough to cast is Limited Wish (Sorc/Wiz 7), all the others are 9th level spells. I don't see why this spell can't be implemented in a limited fashion. Would give another viable and less costly option to Feeblemind and add a fairly standard D&D spell to the game.

Obviously some adjustments would have to be made, but seems like a decent option to me.

Oh I hope wish spells in any format are never attempted in such a game. Wish spells are nightmares, and as the names imply they can be so varied in their application and use that the game itself can't contimplate every use it may have....that requires a real live, living, human DM to distinguish and judge, which is something a computer simply cannot replicate properly and no matter how it would be implemented people would be crying left and right wanting to know it isnt able to do this or that.

Just as the quoted definition of the limited wish spell states, it can be used to replicate nearly any effect. DDO is already far too limited on the available spells now, yet a limited wish could even produce effects not even in an avilable spell, which is something the game cannot compensate for.

I can only image the problems even trying to click on such a spell icon would be. It would have to pop up a window, basically showing you every single spell in the game to choose from, and potentially even more options than that, which would just be a window filling up nearly your entire screen of choices, and by the time you choose what you wanted it to do, you probably wouldnt even need it anymore.

Granted I love the wish spells in PnP, but in a computer run gameworld where the rules cannot be questioned, changed, bent or even reconsidered, there is no place for such spells here...not properly, and if you can properly institue a spell like that, it shouldnt be available. Not to mention wish spells are quite often entirely at the DMs discretion on how they work or how they will produce what is wished for, which means the effects of such spells change from game session to game session, from DM to DM, at which point you could hardly create a hardset code of rules for such a spell that is going to suit the desires or understanding of what the spell is to everyone, which in turn will probably just create headaches and nightmares for the Devs later on.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Listen, I dont want some huge boon here for the gamers. All I want is a secondary way to cure a status ailment that we should have 4 ways to cure, but do not, (and odds are really really good will not get as I do not see the wish or miracle lines making it into game.)I totally agree with the need for a secondary method. See post #55 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1321424&postcount=55). I just don't think that method should be a purchased consumable or a shrine.

[Tanka]

Well if you have 2 clerics in a group, I guess then it is not as big a problem, but that does not seem to be a very common occurance.
I was, in fact, speaking about having a second Cleric in a TSN run. Even if they aren't L11, one that is L9-10 can use a Heal scroll with a Caster Level check.

[Cowdenicus]

I was, in fact, speaking about having a second Cleric in a TSN run. Even if they aren't L11, one that is L9-10 can use a Heal scroll with a Caster Level check.

true.

[Riddikulus]

I totally agree with the need for a secondary method. See post #55 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1321424&postcount=55). I just don't think that method should be a purchased consumable or a shrine.
Why object to changing the shrines?

I think feeblemind not being cleared at shrine is an oversight.

I understand it only removing one "tick" of negative level or stat damage, but it removes all other stat damaging effects completely (enervation, enfeeblement, etc), so what makes feeblemind "special"?

[Cowdenicus]

I totally agree with the need for a secondary method. See post #55 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1321424&postcount=55). I just don't think that method should be a purchased consumable or a shrine.

I could go with that, except for the whole break enchantment mechanic when playing with these over buffed mobs.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Why object to changing the shrines?

I think feeblemind not being cleared at shrine is an oversight.

I understand it only removing one "tick" of negative level or stat damage, but it removes all other stat damaging effects completely (enervation, enfeeblement, etc), so what makes feeblemind "special"?In PnP, Feeblemind requires high level magic to remove; Clr6,9 or Sor/Wiz7,9 spells. Allowing it to be removed with a good night's rest just isn't right. It's not a temporary drain but a permanent enchantment effect. "She turned me into a newt! ...I got better." Curse and Blindness do not go away from a shrine, nor should the higher level Feeblemind.

Heck, I'd love to see integrated voice and type chat automatically turned off for Feebleminded players. "The affected creature is unable to <snip> understand language, or communicate coherently." Ok, maybe it can post an auto message of grunts whenever they try to use type chat. :D Now that would be fun!

[Cowdenicus]

In PnP, Feeblemind requires high level magic to remove; Clr6,9 or Sor/Wiz7,9 spells. Allowing it to be removed with a good night's rest just isn't right. It's not a temporary drain but a permanent enchantment effect. "She turned me into a newt! ...I got better." Curse and Blindness do not go away from a shrine, nor should the higher level Feeblemind.

Heck, I'd love to see integrated voice and type chat automatically turned off for Feebleminded players. "The affected creature is unable to <snip> understand language, or communicate coherently." Ok, maybe it can post an auto message of grunts whenever they try to use type chat. :D Now that would be fun!

LMAO

[Tanka]

Heck, I'd love to see integrated voice and type chat automatically turned off for Feebleminded players. "The affected creature is unable to <snip> understand language, or communicate coherently." Ok, maybe it can post an auto message of grunts whenever they try to use type chat. :D Now that would be fun!
That would actually cause me to quit. Sorry, but while I do think we should stick to PnP as much as possible, that would certainly be a complete wash for a game that (more or less) requires active speech to be able to complete without due frustration.

Funny idea, but not a fun one. And a game needs to be fun in order to be a success.

[Cowdenicus]

That would actually cause me to quit. Sorry, but while I do think we should stick to PnP as much as possible, that would certainly be a complete wash for a game that (more or less) requires active speech to be able to complete without due frustration.

Funny idea, but not a fun one. And a game needs to be fun in order to be a success.

True, but if it happened just every once in a while it would be hilarious. or better yet, if it made you run around on all 4's.

[Mad_Bombardier]

That would actually cause me to quit. Sorry, but while I do think we should stick to PnP as much as possible, that would certainly be a complete wash for a game that (more or less) requires active speech to be able to complete without due frustration.

Funny idea, but not a fun one. And a game needs to be fun in order to be a success.Ok, fair enough. I think it would be fun, though. I use voice, so if I was Feebleminded, I'd lose my green voice indicator. If I tried to type, no matter what I typed, my text would appear to others as, "Ygh. Kfunikapah!" Hopefully, my party would catch on and help me out. (Maybe the Feebleminded icon could stay visible above my head, too.)

I have several guildies that play without voice. They use type chat for normal play. Same thing would happen. Their text would do the same. We'd see unusual chat (think Hobgob and Orc battle cries) from them in Party chat and we'd help out.

[Cowdenicus]

Ok, fair enough. I think it would be fun, though. I use voice, so if I was Feebleminded, I'd lose my green voice indicator. If I tried to type, no matter what I typed, my text would appear to others as, "Ygh. Kfunikapah!" Hopefully, my party would catch on and help me out. (Maybe the Feebleminded icon could stay visible above my head, too.)

I have several guildies that play without voice. They use type chat for normal play. Same thing would happen. Their text would do the same. We'd see unusual chat (think Hobgob and Orc battle cries) from them in Party chat and we'd help out.

or it could just all come out as YARK YARK YARK......

Boy I hope the forum Kobold doesnt see this. :D

[Palmetto]

or it could just all come out as YARK YARK YARK......

Boy I hope the forum Kobold doesnt see this. :D
Let me get this straight. Did you say KK is feebleminded? :D

[Cowdenicus]

Let me get this straight. Did you say KK is feebleminded? :D

Oh NO NO NO NO NO. You aint getting me to go there. Uh Uh No way. :cool:

[Palmetto]

Oh NO NO NO NO NO. You aint getting me to go there. Uh Uh No way. :cool:
Oh well, there went my chance to agree with you. :eek: :D :p