Max 2handed fighter

[nbhs275]

Warforged Fighter 14

Str 38 (18 Base +3 enhancment +3 level +6 item +2 rage +4 madstone +2 tome)
Dex 18 (12 Base +4 item +2 tome)
Con 28 (17 base +2 enhancment +6 item +2 rage +8 madstone +3 tome)
Int 13 (12 base +1 tome)
Wis 14 (6 base +2 tome +6 item)
Cha 6

Feats:

1st: Adamantine Body
1st: Power Attack
2nd: Cleave
3rd: Weapon focus: Slashing
4th: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
6th: Great Cleave
6th: Two Handed Fighting
8th: Improved Two Handed Fighting
9th: Improved Critical: Slashing
10th: Greater weapon focus: Slashing
12th: Greater two handed fighting
12th: Toughness
14th: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Basic concept is splash damage. Yours a swinging fireball. Each normal hit does 45-55 damage, with each swing doing 16-20 splash damage to every mob around you. Then you have cleave and great cleave, for even more area damage. Im sure someone can come up with something more refined and defined, but this is just a simple mock up.



Damage: Sword of Shadows. 2d6+5 weapon +21 Str + 4 WS + 16 PA = 2d6 + 46

[Casta]

You left out lvls on your str, that puts you at 39. And don't think anything on a build should be done with double madstone and a +3 tome, the chance of you getting the tome are very low, iv done about 50 reaver raids and iv seen a few +2 tomes never a +3 of anything, and double madstone is 1 min 30 seconds a shrine not enough time to base a build around.

This leaves you realistically at 32 standing str, leaving out tomes becouse a +1 would just leave you at an odd number.

[Stealthbr]

Why dont you take toughness earlier for a small HP increase?

[nbhs275]

You left out lvls on your str, that puts you at 39. And don't think anything on a build should be done with double madstone and a +3 tome, the chance of you getting the tome are very low, iv done about 50 reaver raids and iv seen a few +2 tomes never a +3 of anything, and double madstone is 1 min 30 seconds a shrine not enough time to base a build around.

This leaves you realistically at 32 standing str, leaving out tomes becouse a +1 would just leave you at an odd number.

I've seen a total of three +3 con tomes. And this isn't a build i will actually make, its to show the max potential of a 2handed fighter, to give a base point to compare against a DPS 2hander barbarians.

To answer the question about toughness, the the extra 66 hp make a bigger difference toward the higher levels. Plus the 10 enhancement points and feat are two tight until you hit that 13-14 range.

[Stealthbr]

Ah i ended up going dwarf and instead of cleave, great cleave, and admantine body i took Iron will, lightning reflexes and luck of heroes. When cap goes up to 16 (probably in a long time) I will get cleave and G Cleave. Starting stats were 18Str, 14Dex, 17Con, 10Wis, 6Cha, 8Int. I took toughness at lvl 1 though. Can you take adamantine body at lvl 3 or is it only avaible at creation?

[Slayer918]

Or you could go 12/2 fighter/barb

str 42 (what you had + 3 mins of barb rage a shrine)
dex 18 same
con 32 (28+ rage) much more reasonably w/ a +2 tome and barb con I...
int you look like ur going for CE but don't actually take it? planning for the future? taking CE/Improved trip later down the road? If not I would drop this to 8 and raise wisdom w/ the points but it shouldn't matter a whole lot... go with what ever u feel like here its the backside of the build and wont make a huge difference

Feats the same (although I would probably drop Great cleave for iron will personal oppinion but I think the 5 second cool down on cleave should be good enough for what your trying to accomplish)
But since you have to drop a feat for the 2 levels of barbarian I would drop ady body... the 2 DR wont go that far and your AC won't really matter much IMO as the point is to kill things quickly...

Pick up barbarian power attack I along w/ WF power attack III

Damage 2d6 +24 str (42 :) ) +18 power attack +4 GWS +5 weapon = 2d6 +51 = 58 average average crits = 174 - 192 w/ a bloodstone

To-hit: 14 BAB 16 STR -9 PA +4 GH +5 weapon +2 GWF = +32/+32/+37/+42 plenty in GH elite...

Only problem is you wont be able to sustain barb rage/madstone the whole quest and when its gone u lose 4 to hit and 6 damage bringing you to +45 damage and +28 to hit still respectable and you shouldn't have too many problems hitting...

020 heroic duribility
120 fighter levels
024 barb levels
016 toughness
050 toughness enhancements
154 con
030 GFL
010 GH favor
424 enough

Saves:
F 11 base 11 con 4 GH 4 resistance item = 30 (baseline can be much more)
R 4 base 4 dex 4 GH 4 resistance item = 16 (again baseline)
W 4 base +2-4 wisdom 4 GH 4 resistance item 2 iron will = 16-18 depending on starting wisdom

P.S. you can only take ady body at level 1 and it doesn't really matter when you take toughness except for leveling up...

[Stealthbr]

Oh ok nvm then.

[nbhs275]

the reason i stay pure fighter with addy body is this.

10 base
8 body
5 docent
5 protection
4 dex
4 natural
4 shield clicky
____________
40 AC, enough to stay 2handed and not be hit extremly hard, on any normal content, and most elite non-gianthold content. You also have the choice to tank up.

The reason to not take dwarf is this. For 6 enhancement points the dwarf gains 2 damage to his greataxe. BUT, for six enhancement points, the Warforged gains 6 damage on ANY 2hander, and seeing the best 2hander is currently the SoS, thats a big advantage to the WF.

And as far as changing the feats, the cleaves give you more damage then the glancing blows, though together they are really strong. If you where to build on this base but still change feats, i would say the weapon focus and specialization would be less missed. Also, for the combat expertise and intel thing, yes when i did stats i was going to try and fit in both. But if you build this character with these feats, switch those points into wisdom.

[bandyman1]

Warforged Fighter 14

Str 38 (18 Base +3 enhancment +3 level +6 item +2 rage +4 madstone +2 tome)
Dex 18 (12 Base +4 item +2 tome)
Con 28 (17 base +2 enhancment +6 item +2 rage +8 madstone +3 tome)
Int 13 (12 base +1 tome)
Wis 14 (6 base +2 tome +6 item)
Cha 6

Feats:

1st: Adamantine Body
1st: Power Attack
2nd: Cleave
3rd: Weapon focus: Slashing
4th: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
6th: Great Cleave
6th: Two Handed Fighting
8th: Improved Two Handed Fighting
9th: Improved Critical: Slashing
10th: Greater weapon focus: Slashing
12th: Greater two handed fighting
12th: Toughness
14th: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Basic concept is splash damage. Yours a swinging fireball. Each normal hit does 45-55 damage, with each swing doing 16-20 splash damage to every mob around you. Then you have cleave and great cleave, for even more area damage. Im sure someone can come up with something more refined and defined, but this is just a simple mock up.



Damage: Sword of Shadows. 2d6+5 weapon +21 Str + 4 WS + 16 PA = 2d6 + 46


Human barbarian 14

Str 44 ( 18 base, +3 lvls, +1 adapatibilty, +6 item +8 rage, +2 pot, +4 madstone, +2 tome )
Dex 16 ( 12 base, +4 item )
Con 40 ( 16 base, +2 enhancement, +6 item, +2 tome, +4 rage, +2 pot, +8 madstone )
Int 8
Wis 18 ( 10 base, +2 tome, +6 item )
Chr 8

Feats:
1st THF, Power att.
3rd Toughness
6th ITHF
9th Imp. crit- slashing
12th GTHF

Exact same splash damage, but note that the barb will crit 10% ( or more considering a + 1 to-hit for 44 Str [ +17 ] vs. the fighters 38 Str and focus enhancements [ +14 +1WF +1GWF = + 16 ] more on their main target, and with +1 to-hit vs the fighter will land 5% more glancing blows.

Damage: Sword of Shadows. 2d6+5 weapon + 25 Str. +16 PA = 2d6 +46

AC:
10 base
13 MFP
3 Dex
5 protection
3 natural ( BS pots are cheap at lvl 14 )
4 shield clickie
39 AC, also have the option of hitting uncanny for a +6 boost to AC when ***** hits the fan.


There you go, a quick build for comparison.
Note that I only used a +2 tome where you used a +3 ( Con ), and I didn't use a tome for Wis.

I'm really not sure what you were trying to accomplish by posting this. This build will do excellent DPS true, but not enough to match the barb. Cleave and Greatcleave do excellent additions to splash damage, but the AC you tout is horse ****. You won't sustain it during damage mode, because you can't use the clickie while raged ( neither can the barb ), and when you " turtle up " and hit CE, your DPS falls to ***** without PA on ( can't have two stances going at once ).

I saw your last post about survivability, and I posted there as well. The barb posted has far more hps, better saves, and ( with the DR boosts ) far better DR. Therefore he/she will be around far longer to do that damage without outside support.

Edit: Wow. The filter won't let you use a word that starts with c and rhymes with wrap, or a word with an e on the end to change the pronounciation.

[nbhs275]

[QUOTE=bandyman1;1316999]Human barbarian 14


AC:
10 base
13 MFP
3 Dex
5 protection
3 natural ( BS pots are cheap at lvl 14 )
4 shield clickie
39 AC, also have the option of hitting uncanny for a +6 boost to AC when ***** hits the fan.
-4 rage
-2 rage potion
____________
33
-4 no shield clicky
29

So whenever you rage, your AC is not going to matter at all, and when your not raged, your not going to be doing any DPS either.

Also, I never took Combat expertise, by my "turtle up" i meant throw on a Mith tower shield.

I also made no claims about saves anywhere, just AC. So lets see, i have 400 hp and a 40 AC, i get hit about 1/2 of the time. You have 600 hp, and an AC of 29. You get hit every time. Who lives longer when your getting hit for 45ish every time? And as far as your DR boost, thats 20 seconds every thirty. I doubt that your only fighting for 100 seconds every shrine.



[QUOTE]

[bandyman1]

[QUOTE=bandyman1;1316999]Human barbarian 14


AC:
10 base
13 MFP
3 Dex
5 protection
3 natural ( BS pots are cheap at lvl 14 )
4 shield clickie
39 AC, also have the option of hitting uncanny for a +6 boost to AC when ***** hits the fan.
-4 rage
-2 rage potion
____________
33
-4 no shield clicky
29

So whenever you rage, your AC is not going to matter at all, and when your not raged, your not going to be doing any DPS either.

Also, I never took Combat expertise, by my "turtle up" i meant throw on a Mith tower shield.

I also made no claims about saves anywhere, just AC. So lets see, i have 400 hp and a 40 AC, i get hit about 1/2 of the time. You have 600 hp, and an AC of 29. You get hit every time. Who lives longer when your getting hit for 45ish every time? And as far as your DR boost, thats 20 seconds every thirty. I doubt that your only fighting for 100 seconds every shrine.





Here's the thing....you don't have 40 AC. You take the same -2 for a rage pot, not sure where you came up with a +4 natural armor bonus ( I was under the impression the addy body gave DR only, so correct me if I'm wrong ), so scale that back to a BS pot and +3.

That throws you down to a 37 and that is arguible. You don't wanna count DR boost and uncanny dodge? Why? You seem to think it's perfectly fine to count a clickie that you are gonna get about 150 secs of use out of. ( 1 min per charge, wait for cooldown and swap back to whatever equip you normally use in that slot equals = about 50 secs per charge ). By that logic, the barb could just use the clickie before they raged, and they'd still have their other boosts to use.

So a 33 AC. If you think that doesn't = getting hit every time in GH on normal then you've been playing a game noone else has. Sure you could go with a MTS for a 41 ( reasonable for normal ), but guess what? You just killed the DPS of your build. True you are only getting sucessfully hit on half the attacks, but you are now taking twice as many attacks because the barb is dropping opponets twice as fast. **** those extra 200 HPs are looking nice now aren't they?

If the barb wanted to they could " turtle up" with a MTS as well, pick up a heavy pick ( throwing him to a 37 AC, which you seem to think is viable, and a 43 for those really hard critters ) and still blow your DPS out of the water with both of you going sword and board. Granted they wouldn't get splash damage, but who cares. The extra DPS will drop their opponets quicker than you using cleave and greatcleave.

It's very simple. I have a sword and board tank. She's excellent at what she does. Tank.
DPS is very good ( for a one-handed fighter ), but it doesn't touch a barbs. Same goes for HPs, saves, and DR. The one place a barb can't touch me is AC. They don't even come close.

The minute you try to go THF DPS on a fighter to close the gap, you minimize the one thing that sets the fighter apart; higher defense.

[nbhs275]

[QUOTE=nbhs275;1317311]

Here's the thing....you don't have 40 AC. You take the same -2 for a rage pot, not sure where you came up with a +4 natural armor bonus ( I was under the impression the addy body gave DR only, so correct me if I'm wrong ), so scale that back to a BS pot and +3.

+4 from madstone rage. Rage potions are optional. Still at 40, before haste (+1), recitation (+2), paladin(+2-4) or fighter armor boost (+2-5) Add in choasguard(+2) and a chattering ring (+3) and your 2handed fighter is still not getting hit nearly as much. Thats a 43 that anyone can reach standing, and a 57 fully buffed, still using a 2hander. A well put together 2handed fighter can easily reach a working AC better then a 1handed barbarian.

That throws you down to a 37 and that is arguible. You don't wanna count DR boost and uncanny dodge? Why? You seem to think it's perfectly fine to count a clickie that you are gonna get about 150 secs of use out of. ( 1 min per charge, wait for cooldown and swap back to whatever equip you normally use in that slot equals = about 50 secs per charge ) Well, shield clickies are only 60 seconds a charge, but there is no limit to the number you have. So even if i only get a working 50 seconds from each charge, thats still five minutes of shield from six charges.. By that logic, the barb could just use the clickie before they raged, and they'd still have their other boosts to use.

So a 33 AC. If you think that doesn't = getting hit every time in GH on normal then you've been playing a game noone else has. Sure you could go with a MTS for a 41 ( reasonable for normal ), but guess what? You just killed the DPS of your build. True you are only getting sucessfully hit on half the attacks, but you are now taking twice as many attacks because the barb is dropping opponets twice as fast. **** those extra 200 HPs are looking nice now aren't they?

If the barb wanted to they could " turtle up" with a MTS as well, pick up a heavy pick ( throwing him to a 37 AC, which you seem to think is viable, and a 43 for those really hard critters ) and still blow your DPS out of the water with both of you going sword and board. Granted they wouldn't get splash damage, but who cares. The extra DPS will drop their opponets quicker than you using cleave and greatcleave.

It's very simple. I have a sword and board tank. She's excellent at what she does. Tank.
DPS is very good ( for a one-handed fighter ), but it doesn't touch a barbs. Same goes for HPs, saves, and DR. The one place a barb can't touch me is AC. They don't even come close.

The minute you try to go THF DPS on a fighter to close the gap, you minimize the one thing that sets the fighter apart; higher defense.

Im not sure why your debating this man, i NEVER SAID that this build would do more hit-for-hit DPS then a barbarian, just that it would do comparable damage with far more area of effect damage then the average barbarian.

The fact is that the average barbarian has an AC so low while raging, that even medium level content still hits them enough to cause signifigant damage.

[bandyman1]

[QUOTE=bandyman1;1317459]

Im not sure why your debating this man, i NEVER SAID that this build would do more hit-for-hit DPS then a barbarian, just that it would do comparable damage with far more area of effect damage then the average barbarian.

The fact is that the average barbarian has an AC so low while raging, that even medium level content still hits them enough to cause signifigant damage.

For rage pots to be optional, you sure didn't have a problem using them when you figured your builds DPS or broke down my barbs AC, and I would gain one natural from my original figures because of the madstone effect. Still at 32. Use a shield clickie before raging, now at 36. Before haste ( + 1 ), recitation ( +2 ), paladin ( +2-4 ), or uncanny dodge ( +6 and it's a boost too ). Add in a chattering ring ( +3 ) and ( can't do the chaosguarde ) you have a 53. That's 39 anyone can reach standing and a 53 fully buffed. Sure you want to stay in THF mode and let the barb use a +5 MTS? He'd have the same AC as your fighter. And has more HPs, better saves, and far better DR.


Shield clickies. You are right. BUT...with all the gear this build uses, you'll be hard pressed to find slots to keep them equipped at all times. Which is where it breaks down. You swap equipment, use the clickie, then swap back. Tell us you are seriously going to stop attacking and do that in the middle of a fight. No, you are going to use it before the fight. Same goes for the barb. Just use it before you rage.


Now, as to why I'm debating you. The one str a 14th lvl fighter has over a 14th lvl barbarian is his AC. That's it.
By building a fighter to try and compare to the barbs DPS, you gimp your one strong point.

[nbhs275]

What a fighter really has over barbarians is the using lots of Trip//improved trip// stunning blow. Who gives a small mammals hind end what seperates a fake fighter in an electronic game and a make-believe barbarian in an electronic game? This build was, and I quote from my original post" Basic concept is splash damage. Yours a swinging fireball. Each normal hit does 45-55 damage, with each swing doing 16-20 splash damage to every mob around you. Then you have cleave and great cleave, for even more area damage. Im sure someone can come up with something more refined and defined, but this is just a simple mock up.

I said it wasnt perfect. I said there is ways to tweak out more damage. But it really doesnt matter whether you swing 30% faster or crit 10% more. When your at 5+ pieces of raid loot like these two builds we're debating, its gunna be a marginal, and overall, useless difference. .3 second either way isn't going to matter.


Though to pidgeon hole fighters striktly into AC builds is rather odd.

[bandyman1]

What a fighter really has over barbarians is the using lots of Trip//improved trip// stunning blow. Who gives a small mammals hind end what seperates a fake fighter in an electronic game and a make-believe barbarian in an electronic game? This build was, and I quote from my original post" Basic concept is splash damage. Yours a swinging fireball. Each normal hit does 45-55 damage, with each swing doing 16-20 splash damage to every mob around you. Then you have cleave and great cleave, for even more area damage. Im sure someone can come up with something more refined and defined, but this is just a simple mock up.

I said it wasnt perfect. I said there is ways to tweak out more damage. But it really doesnt matter whether you swing 30% faster or crit 10% more. When your at 5+ pieces of raid loot like these two builds we're debating, its gunna be a marginal, and overall, useless difference. .3 second either way isn't going to matter.


Though to pidgeon hole fighters striktly into AC builds is rather odd.

Not really bro, if you look around most peeps agree that the barbs win on every other point of comparison. But I concede the point about it ultimately making no difference. I'll also give you the stragety on the fighter, that's why I decided against GTHFing in favor of stunning blow on my own barb build :). Currently I'm at lvl 6 with a 28 str ( 30 with a rage pot ) and it lands quite often.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Not really bro, if you look around most peeps agree that the barbs win on every other point of comparison. But I concede the point about it ultimately making no difference. I'll also give you the stragety on the fighter, that's why I decided against GTHFing in favor of stunning blow on my own barb build :). Currently I'm at lvl 6 with a 28 str ( 30 with a rage pot ) and it lands quite often.Hi all. After looking at the comparison numbers in the Barb forum, I thought I'd post them here. The discussion was equally built/minmaxed 2H Barb versus 2H Fighter.

My post is sheerly informational. I like both Barbs and 2H Fighters. :) I did do some significant tweaking in the graph data (the fields don't allow for everything) and am happy to post all the info if anyone has questions.

Fighter vs Barb, Sword of Shadows (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Fighter+SoS&1bab=13&1atktype=2h&1spm=86&1phd=2d6+%2B15&1phed=&1phth=5&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=18&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=35&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barbarian+SoS&2bab=11&2atktype=2h&2spm=86&2phd=2d6+%2B19&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=42&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=30&maxac=60) ~80% DPS
Fighter vs Barb, +5 GreatAxe (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Fighter+GA&1bab=13&1atktype=2h&1spm=92&1phd=1d12+%2B15&1phed=0&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=18&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=35&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barbarian+GA&2bab=11&2atktype=2h&2spm=92&2phd=1d12+%2B19&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=42&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=30&maxac=60) ~75% DPS

The only things not accounted for are THF glancing blows. Both classes are assumed to have the feats, so that is no change. However, Barb's base damage is a little higher, giving a little more glancing blow damage. Which is why I (minorly) rounded down the DPS to even % numbers.

So, equally built, the Barb is going to win out in straight damage. The fighter gets more feats for tactics/combat feats, but also needs them because his STR is lower (a Fighter needs to take ImpTrip just to equal the Barb's normal trip with higher STR). But, a Fighter can still take other combat feats and enhancements for them increasing his effectiveness. And that is his way to add to the party.

[Shade]

Whys the discussion about AC and DPS vs a barb?

AC does not matter on a DPS build. The idea is to kill your enemies before they deal much damage, and this build would do that fine. AC is like DPS, you need to specialize heavy in it for it to really matter, so its not a factor here really. You could drop adamantine body at lvl14 and wouldn't notice a difference in any lvl14 quest. Barbarians AC isn't that bad because they get the free +6 boost and are unflankable unlike fighters for +2 ac vs anything behind you. Also the rage penalty is -2 not -4.

Obviously this build will have great DPS...

But its defenses are the weak point, i mean there non-existant, don't think he wants any.
I mean, average AC might help in the mid lvl quests a bit..

Bad reflex save will hurt versus some bosses.
No will save to speak of will completely suck ass vs mind flayers and other nasty will effects.

Add to that a rather large hitpoint pool and WF status makes for a fun time finding a group.

You could pick up a bit of wisdom.. Drop a point of con to do it won't hurt. Then drop cleaves for iron will, resiliance or luck of hero's.

I dunno, overall I don't see the point of the build, barbarian could do everything better then this build imo.
-Better dps, crit rage
-More con, more hp, more fort save
-Have an actual will save, and a good one if wanted
-Great reflex save situationally (2min per shrine)
-Much better DR (2-4 vs 7-15)

Only loss would be cleave, which is really unnessary anyways if you have GTHF.

[nbhs275]

i dont intend to build this character. It was to try and see what the advantage of a dps fighter was. After some things i've seen in multiple threads like this, i have actually rolled up a barbarian of my own.