Mature Players/Role Players Speak Out about D&DO's Future

[Rason]

I have one rule for this thread and one rule only. I want constructive discussions here by mature players and role players alike. If you want to complain like a child, go elsewhere. There is a whole forum you can do that but not here.

Normally we have threads around on the forum of “What I would like to see…” where people list what they would like in Dungeons and Dragons Online. What I have here instead is a more human, mature approach about the game we have begun to know and love.

Rather than doing a list of what you would like or what you believe is wrong, I would like to see what everyone can come up with in a constructive reply resulting in a friendly discussion, something Turbine can see in the midst of the other posts.

I’ll start us off down the track.

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Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach is dying

We all know that the game we love to play in is hanging on by a thread and that I believe the developers believe Module 5 will save the day. Will it? Will it restore faith to all of those players who have left or are thinking about leaving?

I’m scared. That’s right. I’m 24 and I am scared of a game. Why? Because I love this game that is our community, albeit we have some oddballs but what neighbourhood or family doesn’t?

I came to Dungeons and Dragons Online in the Beta and I loved it although some parts needed fixing. A year after Beta I did return and those things had been fixed, most of them, and soon it is said that others will be as well. I am worried though that Turbine has taken too long and that the louder voices on the forum are those of people who are more hardcore than the rest of us as opposed to those of us who have been a geek at a table, dice in hand, telling the dungeon master that we fumbled while fighting a cloud giant.

While Dungeons and Dragons Online is being updated each month, or so, I don’t think Dungeons and Dragons is shining brightly in the online game as much as it could. Why? Dungeons and Dragons Online’s missions take much more effort to make than other MMOs like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings Online since ours are instanced all the time with three levels of difficulty all to a resemblance of the Dungeons and Dragons RPG; at least that is my reasoning.

Has anyone here had a look over at the Lord of the Rings Online forum and website to see what they have in game or are getting in the next update: Book 10: City of the Kings?

Lord of the Rings Online uses the same game engine as Dungeons and Dragons Online and it has started off on the foot I believe Turbine should have had with Dungeons and Dragons Online. Lord of the Rings Online is very role play friendly, has massive areas to walk around in and has a wonderful story to progress through.

There are some of the options in Lord of the Rings Online that if Turbine could think on it, couldn’t Dungeons and Dragons Online get some of those very options? Since I am a role player, I am biased in that behalf since I am beginning to sway away from Dungeons and Dragons Online slightly because of the tools in game with Lord of the Rings Online that help role players out even more.

Let me see…

Mood emotes is a small detail but even a non-role player would find fun in them. This emote gives an overall mood to your character while you are playing whether they are scared, happy, sad, etc.

Scalable UI is useful to everyone but this one may well be coming in Module 5 and the graphics overhaul, crossed fingers.

A RP Chat Channel would be grand but I have my doubts and I’ll explain below.

Hell, in truth…playable music would be great here too since a very large aspect to the Dungeons and Dragons universe is music, festivals and the like.

I won’t reiterate over what the Top 10 thread has mentioned since there is no need to double up there except for mentioning that it is a classic example of what players want to see in Dungeons and Dragons Online and I do hope the developers take notice to some of what is being said, if not all. That was the best aspect of the staff here was they listened to us.

The sad part is that Dungeons and Dragons Online is confined to just a city and its outer areas as such. There is no open transition areas with walking from A to B. That was one aspect that Dungeons and Dragons Online didn’t want so it was more friendly on the casual players but I am a casual player and in a way, I wish we had them still. Since Turbine made that decision upon creation, we cannot go back and the only way to fix this problem would be to remake the game. How else would we get mounts and the like? We have no use for them right now in 75% of the missions.

Without a remade game, how likely is it that we will ever see content we’d like from the Dungeons and Dragons books in Dungeons and Dragons Online? I for one love role playing and casual play but I doubt I will ever, EVER see anything that will make the game more focused on role players because the majority of role players left after the Beta and at this day the role players are now in the minority.

As an example, why should Turbine add a RP Chat Channel to all Dungeons and Dragons Online servers if only two servers did the majority of role play? Will Turbine bite the bullet and put all the finer details in that role players or mature players would love to see if the greater community wouldn’t appreciate it or would leave if it was changed? Money in the pockets keeps Dungeons and Dragons Online alive and I, as a role player, don’t have faith that Turbine would bite that bullet.

I am worried that Dungeons and Dragons Online will coast the line where Turbine doesn’t lose players from either side yet doesn’t make them both happy either. They will make this game appear like Dungeons and Dragons while making sure they do not focus on a selective niche.

Should Turbine make Dungeons and Dragons Online into what Ultima Online became? A role playing heaven for those who could speak in ye ol’ English and a world where life thrived, NPC and PC alike, should it become more like World of Warcraft with grinding, Lord of the Rings Online with its storyline or plain our just keep coasting along like it is?

I don’t really have an answer for that. I would like this game to be more like Lord of the Rings Online but I doubt Turbine would make that move since they need a healthy distinction between the two games so they can have players in both courts otherwise Dungeons and Dragons Online/Lord of the Rings Online would turn out to be a City of Heroes/City of Villains clone (mind you, paying one subscription for both would be wonderful! Wishful thinking :P).

Dunno.. I’m just blowing off steam with all this ‘doomsaying’ about. We need to make Turbine look at us and not Lord of the Rings Online so much. They are newer, sure, but we really are getting the short end of the stick and I think we need to make them think more positive o our future, at least publically. We need a bright torch in the midst of all the louder voices. We need to tell them that WE are here and we have some positive thoughts on how we can progress down a more Dungeons and Dragons-orientated track.

[dameron]

[B]


Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach is dying

We all know that the game we love to play in is hanging on by a thread and that I believe the developers believe Module 5 will save the day. Will it? Will it restore faith to all of those players who have left or are thinking about leaving?


A resounding yes!

A high level module stuffed full of undead that adds no new levels and no new classes or races is -exactly- what we need.

Of course "we" are the scant few who are still left, but apparently we love that kind of garbage, so it figures.

The game needs a complete overhaul and relaunch, but that ain't gonna happen.

I'll be stunned if I can:

1) Hold a 4th edition DMG in my hand, and
2) login to Thelanis

[bandyman1]

Gotta agree with ya Dameron.

As bad as I hate to fork out the dough for the whole set of a new edition, the DDO Insider applications are looking like a sure fire bet to do what this game should have; reunite my old PnP group who are scattered to the far winds. As soon as it was announced we were all in contact with each other and very excited.

We were all here for beta.....I'm still here. The rest left after two months :( .

I've made lots of friends in my time in DDO, but if Mod V ( and whatever updates ) doesn't drasticly change the way I feel about the game now.......I'll cut my losses first quarter next year.

[Kalanth]

The game has not changed much with the increase of levels and addition of content. So what are you looking for in a new Module that will only add new quests, spells, and enhance meta magic that you think will "save the game?"

I, for one, don't see this game as "dying" in any way. In fact, the server merge has made it feel stronger than before by finally recognizing that there were to many servers to begin with. It's easier to get a group, the LFM section is packed full of options (and not just PoP listed 12 different times). I have met many new and interesting people, and there are many more changes and additions planned for the future. When you manage to pull the information that shows the population number, and that number matches the number of active posters on the forums, then I will consider the game to be dying. But with out statistical numbers to back up your claims of the games demise, you have nothing but your opinion.

As for RP? I tried, several times, to enjoy RP in DDO. There was a bar set by another game I played in the past, and no game has even managed to get to withing sight of that bar. DDO, by far, is the worst RP experience I have had in an MMO all time. There is no conflict, everyone is on the same side for the same goal. There is no overlying story, and no one seems to want to make any. All the RP groups I have met want to RP the quests, but then go silent as soon as you are in the quest and act like the same quest grinding people that the power gamers tend to be. I don't agree on the need for an RP channel. If you want to clutter up my message box with RP, go ahead. Just do me a favor and stick to /say because I don't need to see your RP from across the entire city block as it does in General chat.

As always, there are exceptions to this rule. The exceptions are why I still have a character in the Lightstorm Dragonslayers RP guild on Sarlona. There are times when they have brilliant RP that is both engaging and entertaining. More times than not, however, I see OOC dominate the channel and no one wants to, or in some cases, remembers to RP.

In sumation, the foundation of the game is set, and has been there for some time. Don't expect the gameplay to change and wow you into staying anytime soon if that is where your doubts lay. What changes are to be made will be seen, and if 4th edition affects the game to force a rule change it may be a new version (DDO2) before a revision. Though many seem to have never heard of programs like Fantasy Grounds, the new tools from WoTC are not ground breaking and won't shatter DDO. D&D Insider is not much more than Fantasy Grounds in that its a basic program to allow "table top" play over the internet. These things have been around since before DDO and the game launched and did fine. When D&D Insider is launched it will be for a different purpose, and that is to RP with friends in a campaign. DDO is more intended as quest running and mindless fun with friends and strangers. The original designer said he was not focusing on RP, and he also came from MUDs which is why we have the "do it once, do it a thousand times" mentality on quest design. Accept the game for what it is, and I guarantee you that with 4th editions release the servers will still be up, people will still play, and D&D Insider will not destroy the game.

[LOUDRampart]

First, I enjoy playing DDO because I play it with a group of real life friends who I played DnD 20+ years ago when we were undergrads in college.

Second, when my friends and I played the gold box games, we dreamt of a time we could play together on-line and then we did in AOLNWN, DSO and now again in DDO.

Third, if we players want DnD Online done right, we need to let this game die so the next company can work with WotC and *hopefully* the next dev team will be led by someone with a better vision. (edit for clarification: not the current leader of the dev team, but the guy who lead the initial planning and development. I think this game is slowly getting better but the locked in design choices are hurting what could have been a much better game.)

Fourth, I'm still having fun playing this game, but that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed at times either...

[Rason]

I'm glad to see it is not just me who believes that for DDO to be truly fixed for role play it has to be remade.

D&D 4.0 will truly be the crux for Turbine with it coming out not long after D&D Online came out. I know I for one am having ideas about my campaigns and getting me more active in that department.

One aspect I would like to see come into D&D Online would be a Role Play Flag of some sort. Everquest had it and Lord of the Rings Online also has it.. It could then be obvious who is RPing and who is not. I doubt this would save the game but it would be a good addition to RPers.

Keep up the good talks guys. I'm brainstorming each day trying to think up more ideas of what could fix D&D Online yet most I come up with require the conceiving concept to be rethought-up.

Mind you, the game will probably still be fine if you don't care for RPing and you want a game that marginally feels like D&D but the main reason I came here was this IS D&D and it is great to be the rogue detrapping the traps we need not imagine but see on our screens. To fight in encounters like our tabletop and not the massively inflated monsters we fight now on harder difficulties.

[Rason]

Actually, I do have an addition: Where the hell is our Public Relations for D&D Online? Where is the publicity? Have we had any screenshots added to the website? What about trailers from the modules after Twilight Forge?

If I was a new player and didn't know anything about D&D Online and came to the website, I wouldn't like what I see since I love trailers and video clips. When I originally came here, Twilight Forge just came out recently so the clips were up to date.

Now it looks dead.

[Clawstorm]

I would like to see advertising! When another game releases new quests and new content they advertise...because you pay to buy the new content. Turbine gives us free content but never tells the people not playing the game that there is something new. Each module should be advertised with the same zeal as an xpack. Example:

In a gaming magazine splash "Dungeon's and Dragons's Online. Module 6 'Gate's of Fernia'. Come bear witness to the dark elven invasion - forces bearing mighty new magic from the Fire Giants! With the purchase of DDO you receive this module with Xxx number of new quests and for the price of monthly admission you continue to get module after module FREE!"

Then when Module 7 comes out they rinse and repeat.


**FYI - we had similar suggestions for AC2 but they let that game die too.

[Ironik]

I love this game. It will be around for awhile still. But, all good things come to an end eventually. So, yes, SOMEDAY we'll see the end, but I doubt it's in the near future.

But, I have a concern that DnD 4.0 will smother this game badly. But, who knows.

Also, it's funny to me that people mention 4.0 and how it will change everything so much and WOTC hasn't even realeased anything yet. No one knows much of anything about the rules. If you think you do, it was likely speculation.

If turbine had a brain and a pair of eggs they'd start working on a DnD MMO that stays true to the DnD rules a bit more and launch it as DDO 2 with 4.0 rules and a different campaign setting. Maybe a new one, or maybe not. A fresh new start, if they've learned from they're mistakes and successes, may be the best thing. But, on the same note, this community has been pretty sour as a whole so they may decide to avoid the flak and dump they're resources into LOTR, which has far LESS potential in my opnion then DnD.

One of the few things we do know is 4.0 will be far more 'modular' then previous additions. This should allow components to be added and removed without much effort. Programmatically this favors Game developers, allowing them to develop in modules that can be manipulated individually. I predict we'll see Obsidian or somone pick this up first but, I feel Turbine would benefit from such a move.

DDO is awesome and i'll be here until they decide to pull the plug, whenever that is.

[Ringlord]

I am not a gamer who does the RP thing. I don't have anything against those who do like doing it, but why should the game be redesigned for a minority player group? If more than 50% of the player base actually wanted to do RP then fine ask them to rework the game.

I hate traveling in a game from the quest giver to the quest and back, it is boring and a complete waste of time. If I want that I can get boat loads of it in WoW or any other current MMO. I used to fall asleep at my keyboard traveling around in WoW and have taken 15 minutes 1 way just to get from where I was to where the quest started and after I was done another 15 minutes to get back and do the turn in.

Mounts in game are nothing more than a useless status symbol since nobody has developed mounted combat yet so your mount is 100% useless in every quest. Btw that 15 minute travel time problem I mentioned about WoW was with a mount.

Now I certainly would love to see some things added that I think the RP community would love and I can't see any reason why they could not be ported over from LoTRO. I think the music system should definitely be added to DDO. Bards, and any other player should be able to create real in game music for RP purposes if they want. Hell I would probably even enjoy playing around with it myself.

Make it so players can actually sit in chairs or on benches, they already have an animation to make characters sit so why can't we actually sit on a friggin chair? Add clothing other than armor and gear needed for doing quests to the game. Development time would not be overly large and RP players would feel they can do things other than quests and have fun as they could have parties or celebrations.

Oh and Please Please Please change the original dance emotes for the human male and female characters or just get rid of them entirely. The human male dances like an effeminate and the human female dances like a drunk college student.

[Kanai]

I'd like to say that I'm currently working at PAX (Penny Arcade Expo) in Seattle...I work for Ubisoft, but have had the chance to check out the Bioware, Atari, and Turbine booths respectively (for Mass Effect, NWN2, and....DDO...or so I hoped).

DDO has NO presence at this gaming convention (with an attendance of 30,000 people!!), a convention where there is a whole floor dedicated to tabletop, p'n'p RP games. When I checked out Turbine's booth...it was ALL Lord of the Rings Onlilne, and NOTHING promoting DDO. At all. It is totally absent. I talked to a floor person for Turbine...she asked if I had played the LOTRO game...I told her no, but I play DDO...and she looked at me in a way that ensured me she had no idea what I was even talking about. :confused:

That is RIDICULOUS. I'm disappointed and this really just puts the cherry on the top of my sentiment that Turbine has stopped giving a **** about this game. It's almost like they want it to fizzle out, not reach any of its potential, and are just letting it cruise along as long as people will keep paying subscription fees. It's a **** shame, and upsets me greatly.

Now...on to my feedback.

I have to admit that I often enjoy RPing with people in our guild tremendously.

To be perfectly honest though, this game is not structured in a way that encourages or cultivates RP. Kalanth had a GREAT point in saying that there is endless repetition and absolutely no "sides" or conflict. That is the root of RP.

Ok....here is something dreadfully wrong, and I have felt this more and more as time goes on. You cannot play EVIL alignments. How the f**k are we supposed to truly RP if we cannot create a character that is evil???

This game was not developed for Roleplaying, and even though I've enjoyed many good RP parties and sessions (namely with guildmates, but also with other RPers not in our guild), I am swiftly losing my enthusiasm for RPing in D&D Online because I feel like it is pointless sometimes. (I've run every single quest many times with Kanai, my main character, have reached 2200+ favor, and pushing for "ELITE" on every quest to advance him further has absolutely NO RP basis whatsoever - yet that is what I want to do at this point because the game has become monotonous for me).

Basically, to continue having fun in this game to the degree I would like for paying 15 bucks a month, I want to level up alts and hit max favor with Kanai and tackle the high-end raids. All of these things have nothing to do with RP. At all.

In conclusion - for me to continue having fun in DDO and feel like I am milking the content and getting my money's worth - I am increasingly not interested in RP. It feels like a "treadmill" situation many of the times, where a wall is hit (because of the game's structure) and RP has to become a huge effort on the part of those participating, where we have to alter the very structure of the game or ignore shortcomings to be able to really RP. Not being able to sit in tavern chairs....that is HIGHLY symbolic of what I mean. That is just ******** to me, and show laziness and disregard on the developers part.

I think our guild can still have fun RPing, and I know we've done a lot of great sessions in the past, and will continue to...but I am also finding it necessary to simply play the game as a video game and for the gameplay itself (combat and pure advancement and item-hunting) to continue feeling like it's worth 15 bucks a month to play.

Sorry, but that is honestly how I am feeling about it nowadays. Turbine is letting this game idle (and possibly fizzle out) when it could THRIVE and has the potential for great things (especially as far as RP - the whole root of D&D). Very upsetting and highly disheartening.

[Rason]

I'd like to say that I'm currently working at PAX (Penny Arcade Expo) in Seattle...I work for Ubisoft, but have had the chance to check out the Bioware, Atari, and Turbine booths respectively (for Mass Effect, NWN2, and....DDO...or so I hoped).

DDO has NO presence at this gaming convention (with an attendance of 30,000 people!!), a convention where there is a whole floor dedicated to tabletop, p'n'p RP games. When I checked out Turbine's booth...it was ALL Lord of the Rings Onlilne, and NOTHING promoting DDO. At all. It is totally absent. I talked to a floor person for Turbine...she asked if I had played the LOTRO game...I told her no, but I play DDO...and she looked at me in a way that ensured me she had no idea what I was even talking about. :confused:

That is RIDICULOUS. I'm disappointed and this really just puts the cherry on the top of my sentiment that Turbine has stopped giving a **** about this game. It's almost like they want it to fizzle out, not reach any of its potential, and are just letting it cruise along as long as people will keep paying subscription fees. It's a **** shame, and upsets me greatly.

You have GOT to be kidding me? This is far beyond ridiculous.. D&D Online could be so much better than LotRO. As Marrra and I discussed here at the computers: LotRO has an ending since it is based on a story. D&D Online is based on D&D and it has no definable ending because it is a concept.

Turbine are letting a very good game go stale if they don't focus on publicising it to those who aren't aware of the game or have not been in it for some time.

All it would take is a few articles in a few magazines, online interviews, even a preview of upcoming content. How hard would that be when it would allow DDO to live a while longer, perhaps even be the start to the new beginning of D&D Online getting some player base back.

[Rason]

Discussion part way through watching some Buffy at home: What would the role players out there think if we put the idea forward for having an official RP dedicated server.

Other MMOs have them and we are D&D Online after all. How about a RP server where Thelanis and Sarlona players can migrate to either for free by Turbine or by paying for the Premium Transfer option.

The way I see it, Turbine wouldn't be losing any money over the transfer because if publicised correctly (That's right Turbine, publicise a RP dedicated server) then they will infact make more money out of the tabletop players out there who get one step closer to the D&D Online they wanted to begin with.

If a RP Flag option is created as well then the RP Server itself could have it on permanently and hence OOC comments would be done by various (()) <<>> etc methods.

I for one, would gladly, if I had to, pay for a transfer of my characters over to a sixth server.

Now, what would it be called? Well, as I look at the map of Khorvaire, I see some choices.. Mournlands, Eldeen Reaches, Shadow Marches, etc.. Yet something that has more of a RP ring would be more worthy.

This would bring me back towards DDO, a definite step forward at least. My only worry is the RP server turning into what World of Warcraft RP servers turned into.. well.. not very RP at all because the servers were nice and empty.

[thalion]

I just responded to a post asking "Which server is the RP server? "


I would recommend Sarlona ( Lightstorm's Dragonslayers ) or Thelanis ( prior home of Merlask :( ), of course that was prior to the possibly not so well thought out Turbine server merger...

This is my first online MMO and the only reason I dual boot to the Microsoft OS on my laptop to load this game is because it was D&D. The only reason I'm still here is I finally found my way over to Sarlona, started Dedicated Teams and ran into some great players, many from the ranks of Lightstorm's Dragonslayer.

Perhaps the :( part is that maybe Turbine did think about us during their ...secret..., no feedback requested, server merger plans. Either they don't care or we are such a minority that it doesn't matter to Atari/Turbine/Whatever/Whoever purchased the D&D rights (and/or unfortunately as mentioned earlier it was ignored by the designer).

I remember posting about Server Transfers, designate one server officially RP Sanctioned and allow a one time free xfr to it for all the marooned RPrs or from it for the Non-RPrs who prefer to leave. Then perhaps, like minded people can find the best home.

There are scattered RP guilds across all servers, they are still scattered. ****, just label a server and instead of all these +1 Loot/XP weekends and free shards just let us transfer once for free to a new home already!

[Snike]

I really wish these stupid doom threads would stop.

It's pretty sad, all these expert opinions threads explaining why the end is near. It's like watching some 17 year-old sub-urban kid talking about the war on Iraq with such vigor and truth of fact. It's getting old already.

[Luthen]

I have one rule for this thread and one rule only. I want constructive discussions here by mature players and role players alike. If you want to complain like a child, go elsewhere. There is a whole forum you can do that but not here.
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Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach is dying

Your first comment contradicts your "Rule" for this thread. Being a doomsayer falls under the immature genre. Discrediting all the other "Here is what I would like to see" threads by insinuating they are not "constructive" is not mature. I do not agree nor disagree with much of what you have said. However I disagree with the tone you are using when referring to some of your DDO brethren.

If you would like something constructive that might improve things for us, the player, then try this. I would like to see Turbine take some tips on customer service and interaction from their Euro-Server counterparts. This could go a along way to helping Turbine appease some of our frustration with their lack of events and how they choose to release information or "reward" us for length of membership.

[cdbd3rd]

DDO has NO presence at this gaming convention (with an attendance of 30,000 people!!), a convention where there is a whole floor dedicated to tabletop, p'n'p RP games. When I checked out Turbine's booth...it was ALL Lord of the Rings Onlilne, and NOTHING promoting DDO. At all. It is totally absent. I talked to a floor person for Turbine...she asked if I had played the LOTRO game...I told her no, but I play DDO...and she looked at me in a way that ensured me she had no idea what I was even talking about. :confused:



*Sadness*

Had already seen the varous postings about there being no DDO at PAX - but for the Turbine worker to be ignorant of DDO even existing? Wunnerful.:(

In regard to claims of "doom posting" ... We study history in the hopes that we can learn what pitfalls to avoid. If the signs of impending failure are repeating themselves, then we should all try to wake somebody up and try to steer clear of the same path that has been taken before.

[Kanai]

An update, friends and comrades:

I just walked up to the Turbine booth at PAX, before the hall was open to the general public. This gave me the chance to get three of the developers attention...

I asked them straight up why DDO is not present at all.

Their answer...

"Ummm.....uhhhhh....*exchanged a confused look* ... You know, that is a really good question." A really good question!! :eek: :eek:

I continued by telling them that I play the game, think its fantastic and has lots of potential, and was bewildered that they do not have it present and in the forefront for promotion and growth.

They exchanged another down-trodden, confused glance and one of them (the "main" dude of the three, I guess) said that Module 5 is coming out (yeah, duh) and that LOTRO is the newest game so that is why they have it and only it present at PAX. Basically, the other two guys looked over to him for feedback and he gave the "packaged" answer.

So there you have it...make of that what you will.

Oh, and Rason has a great suggestion with the idea of server that is officially for RP. That would be a great start to conglomerating the subculture of roleplayers in DDO. However, I would like to also see more open-ended, immersive, and RP-friendly material in the upcoming modules and expansions. Instead of simply adding formulaic and essentially hack-n-slash-intensive quests, Turbine should take this engine by the horns and really add some deeper dialogue, more complex conflicts, and the like.

BGII....NWN...KOTOR...these games were huge hits for a reason. They employ the D&D system, and provided extensive RP. True, two were single-player, but I would like to see at least an effort to include the elements that made these games so addictive and immersive included in DDO, with adjustments for the MMO environment as needed.

[Kanai]

I really wish these stupid doom threads would stop.

It's pretty sad, all these expert opinions threads explaining why the end is near. It's like watching some 17 year-old sub-urban kid talking about the war on Iraq with such vigor and truth of fact. It's getting old already.

Nothing sad or stupid about it. Everyone here is providing constructive criticism and feedback. If you have a problem with that...well, don't read the thread and don't post useless criticism of our constructive feedback and factual references.

For the record, I am 27 years old, have played this game since initial launch, and I am working at PAX and personally spoke to Turbine's reps and developers at their booth. So your analogy to a 17-year-old spouting nonsense about the Iraq war is unfounded and frankly pretty ********. :)

[Rason]

Your first comment contradicts your "Rule" for this thread. Being a doomsayer falls under the immature genre. Discrediting all the other "Here is what I would like to see" threads by insinuating they are not "constructive" is not mature. I do not agree nor disagree with much of what you have said. However I disagree with the tone you are using when referring to some of your DDO brethren.

If you would like something constructive that might improve things for us, the player, then try this. I would like to see Turbine take some tips on customer service and interaction from their Euro-Server counterparts. This could go a along way to helping Turbine appease some of our frustration with their lack of events and how they choose to release information or "reward" us for length of membership.

My apologise, Luthen, I did not mean it to come out 100% that way.

I purposely stated I was not overwriting any other threads, infact I even mentioned about the Top Ten thread except that I wanted a different path for the discussion and so far I have got what I anticipated and more.

My tone is how I feel and wanted to catch everyone's attention. I wasn't going to pretend to be happy. I do customer service for a job through the week and now and then your foot has to go down but in a way to startle people into noticing what is going wrong. That was my choice on how to start and so I still back it.

Thank you too for your feedback. I forgot to mention about how the customer service aspect should be modified. Turbine in general, from what I have read, has a under par customer service department.

[Rason]

I just responded to a post asking "Which server is the RP server?"

...

I remember posting about Server transfers, designate one server officially RP sanctioned and allow a one time free xfr to or from it so like minded people can find the best home.

There are scattered RP guilds across all servers, they are still scattered. ****, just label a server and instead of all these +1 Loot/XP, free shards let us transfer already.

My only worry on this is they would need to give more free transfers for people who are not roleplayers to transfer off the chosen server and onto another. If there was infact another server generated then at least then they are only transferring the roleplayers to that server, the minority out of everyone in D&D Online.

I for one don't want to see any more +1 Loot/XP weekends thrown around because people ask for them or because of maintenance downtime or to gain free dragonshards.. both of these events ruin the economy inside the game and on top of that there are better ways to make us happy.

[Mattax]

I have supported this game from Beta and Headstart. It is the only MMO adaption to the DnD I have grown to love over my 27 years.

That is disheartening about the lack of presence at the Turbine booth. That is really sad. People were saying that might happen with Turnine banking on LoTRO being thier "main game." Frankly I think the gameplay mechanics are better in DDO. Much better. Plus the lack of wizards in LoTRO makes for a boring video game IMO.

DDO has everything it needs to be a GREAT game. Heck, even the BEST Fantasy MMORPG. But it needs more options. Evil alignments and conflict are a must for immersion. And even if you aren't an RPer everyone likes to be immeresed in thier game. Right?

More emotes, sitting in chairs and stuff are small things that we need. A more dynamic world would be nice as well.

All in all it is Turbine that was going for an MMO that "breaks the mold" with this game when it started. They quickly realized that some parts that are traditional in MMOs are there for a reason. They make for gameplay that people are willing to pay for.

Well us RPers are willing to pay for a product that support our playstyle. DDO has failed us so far. I really hope to see it at least TRY and attempt to meet some of our wishes that are not too hard to implement.

[Snike]

You could have discussed the DDO at PAX issue without making it another doom/future post which the forums seem to have a bombardment of the last couple months. So excuse me of calling it another stupid doom/future post.

[Attomic]

Just one question to offer, and please understand that it is no way a criticism of RP-oriented players in DDO:

How do you make up for the lack of a living, reactive, creative DM in an MMO? Much of the life of RP at the table comes from the live interaction of players and DM. Don't get me wrong - I understand that a lot of RP can happen even without a DM, but much of the most important, story-advancing RP is created between the players and the DM.

Again, not criticizing; I just don't get it and am genuinely curious.

[Rason]

You could have discussed the DDO at PAX issue without making it another doom/future post which the forums seem to have a bombardment of the last couple months. So excuse me of calling it another stupid doom/future post.

Well, this thread started without even knowing anything about PAX. It just happened to be a mature topic that has come up and we want to discuss. Just because this thread so far doesn't sound all positive, doesn't mean we have a heart for DDO.

Our discussion about PAX is moreso just to get some steam behind Turbine or our wheels on working out why they didn't do it and what we can do to help Turbine. At least that is how I look at the grand picture.

I hate 'doom' threads and I didn't intend this one to be that way, if you believe it is, feel free to go elsewhere while we try to help out Turbine/DDO in some way shape or form..

[Attomic]

Well, this thread started without even knowing anything about PAX. It just happened to be a mature topic that has come up and we want to discuss. Just because this thread so far doesn't sound all positive, doesn't mean we have a heart for DDO.

Our discussion about PAX is moreso just to get some steam behind Turbine or our wheels on working out why they didn't do it and what we can do to help Turbine. At least that is how I look at the grand picture.

I hate 'doom' threads and I didn't intend this one to be that way, if you believe it is, feel free to go elsewhere while we try to help out Turbine/DDO in some way shape or form..

I do wish Turbine would put as much into DDO as they do into LotRO.

[Rason]

Just one question to offer, and please understand that it is no way a criticism of RP-oriented players in DDO:

How do you make up for the lack of a living, reactive, creative DM in an MMO? Much of the life of RP at the table comes from the live interaction of players and DM. Don't get me wrong - I understand that a lot of RP can happen even without a DM, but much of the most important, story-advancing RP is created between the players and the DM.

Again, not criticizing; I just don't get it and am genuinely curious.

Don't apologise. It is a good question!

The way I play DDO when I am heading a RP party is that because most of us have run missions a number of times, we use creative licence. Some people change the quest they are about to do to be slightly different to allow for more creativity like adding more detail into the quest that doesn't hamper it in any way (mostly pre-quest meetup with this) or you just go with the flow.. Sure we don't have a DM but the party leader can be one to help feed information that spurs RP that may even be irrelevant to the quest like "Who did this.." etc.

It definitely is difficult to anticipate having a replacement for the DM chair in the game but all in all, with the games I've done, we all help each other to move the game along RP wise just as much as a DM does..

Sorry if this is mish-mash, at work at present..

[Rason]

I do wish Turbine would put as much into DDO as they do into LotRO.

Here here! I browse over their boards and it reminds me of how DDO used to be with the forums. I want those days back.

[LordFancyPants]

This has been mentioned several times on these forums, but I will put it in this thread as well. Turbine doesn't handle the marketing for DDO. Atari does. Turbine does handle the marketing for Lotro.... which is way they appear to market it more. If you want to know why this game isn't at PAX, ask Atari. Just an FYI.

[Rason]

This has been mentioned several times on these forums, but I will put it in this thread as well. Turbine doesn't handle the marketing for DDO. Atari does. Turbine does handle the marketing for Lotro.... which is way they appear to market it more. If you want to know why this game isn't at PAX, ask Atari. Just an FYI.

Thanks! I don't check all posts generally so I had no idea, thank you for this input :)

[Falco_Easts]

Biggest thing i would like to see is your choices reflected in what happens. You smash X% of crates in a quest and you slide towards chaotic. You choose complete a quest this way instead of that way and it has different results when you go back to quest giver or try to move onto next part of quest. Would take a lot of work coding that sort of thing but think it would be worth it.

[Rason]

Biggest thing i would like to see is your choices reflected in what happens. You smash X% of crates in a quest and you slide towards chaotic. You choose complete a quest this way instead of that way and it has different results when you go back to quest giver or try to move onto next part of quest. Would take a lot of work coding that sort of thing but think it would be worth it.

Alignment Change: Now out of all the ideas on the forum THAT one has to be the best :)

As for the mission paths, this is very much how Tabula Rasa is doing their missions with their Ethics System and it is something I would love to see in D&D Online since it is a genre which SHOULD have those sort of choices.

[Valdieron]

I think for the most part, DDO is what you make it. People will always have differing expectations and 'wants' from a game, but you can rarely (if ever) get them all, especially when there are so many variables for an Online game.

From what I have seen, people have been driven away from DDO by the loot wh*#ing which pervades nearly every group. I mean, who hasn't been in a group where someone "undeserving" has pulled a set of +5 Mith FP after doing nothing to help the group, where you might get your ghost touch shield for half an hours furious key-pressing to keep the rest of the party alive?? When people see this, they tend to get bitter. This is why guild groups do raids in small numbers, not only because they are greedy, but to decrease the feeling of let-down when the loot goes to someone else. With games like LOTR where the loot is 'fixed' ie you know what choices you can get at the end of the quest, and where 'in-quest' loot is the occasional potion and silver, you know that when you get done with the quest you can get the item you most feel like. In LOTR there is no 'rinse and repeat' for uber gear. Some people enjoy that. Me, I love running pop dozens of times in the chance of getting something good, that's what draws me back. Am I a loot w*#@e? Probably :-) But I like gaming that way. I'm not big on voice chat, I don't feel the need to express my opinion on every role of the dice from go-to-woe... "Awww did you see me vorpal that guy!", "my spell just hit for 75432 HP!", "Wonder what will happen if I press this button"... DDO for me is fun, testing my characters against the game and trying to get the best loot. I don't care too much for the RP side of it, if I did I would go back to PnP.

From someone who plays both DDO and LOTR, I think you will find people will be back. yes they leave DDO to play LOTR, but they will be let down. While good, LOTR is by no means great from an enjoyment point of view (beyond the 20 - 30 hour mark anyway). Combat is cheesier than my mums Lasagne, at least in DDO you can jump around and attack and fire bows and cast spells. People say "OK try moving in real life and firing a bow", but who the hell wants a game that simulates real life? Go play SIMS. This is what makes a fantasy world, abilities which defy what we as normal human beings are limited by. Where DDO is a grind from repetitive quest point of view, LOTR is a grind from the "OK I need 50 more ore, let me wait til it respawns" point of view. People will enjoy it or they won't. Like Everquest, it's not the be-all and end-all of a MMORPG.

So what will make DDO better??

Chain quests... More chain quests.... Quests where if you get to the end of the chain, the loot isn't necessarily RAID loot, but based on the difficulty of the quest and the fact you have fought your way to the end. Maybe quests where you know what the end reward will be, before partaking. Classed-based rewards are also cheesy, as they in no way reflect classes properly.


Crafting... Crafting in LOTR is monotonous, but good when you want to pass the time without questing or dealing with people or when the servers are quiet and your mates are all at the footy. What fails in LOTR is that the craft items are 'generally' **** compared to what you get for quest rewards. Unique recipes are what's needed, where anybody can find a recipe and then be able to quest for the items needed for said recipe. People need not be skilled in crafting, but be able to take the items to an NPC and pay for an item to be made.

SETS... I'm talking groups of items that add bonuses the more items of the set you have. ie, Dragoncrafted Armor, Dragoncrafted helm, dragoncrafted shield, dragoncrafted boots.... get em all, and give you a dragon-like ability to breath fire (and not piddly burning hands). Give us something worth grinding for.

Guild Halls.... Already been discussed. Many features you could bring with guild halls that would make people enjoy DDO much more.

Random Quests... Imagine you are standing in the Wayward Lobster, and instead of clicking on some goon, you are approached by an NPC who has a quest for you. You have 1 minute to assemble a party or he goes elsewhere. OK this might be biased towards guild groups, but hey get in a guild if you're not, and if you don't want to, then tough, you just miss out if you can't get a group formed.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't make me walk for 10 minutes to get somewhere! I really don't care to stretch my legs in the wilderness for more than a minute or 2. Threnal is good, a few goons to kill on the way, but I don't feel like I am running for half the night just to get to a quest! People will leave for that very reason. Some don't have the time to run for 15 minutes to get somewhere. Or if you bring in an instance like that where you can run / fight / loot / farm on the way to a location, at least make it so people can choose not to. yes you might have some where you need to run for 20 minutes fighting mobs every step of the way, that might actually be entertaining, but the dreaded Point A to Point B won't wash with a lot of people.


Anyway, I've babbled on long enough. Just a few reasons why I think people will be back to DDO (or its Replacement) and a few things I think would make it a better game. Please take what I have said with a grain of salt, and take no offense if you feel differently, these are just my thoughts and feelings.

Cheers,

[Kanai]

You could have discussed the DDO at PAX issue without making it another doom/future post which the forums seem to have a bombardment of the last couple months. So excuse me of calling it another stupid doom/future post.

I'll retort and then let this exchange die. I don't frequent these forums...and I'm not aware what is on other threads. Nor do I care. I am here to support a guildmates thread, and all my feedback is legit, based on fact and experience, and I can express whatever views I **** well please.

You, in turn, are interjecting in a well-stated, legit conversation in this thread with baseless criticism. No one is forcing you to read this thread, so just don't. It's really quite simple.

[Rason]

I think for the most part, DDO is what you make it. People will always have differing expectations and 'wants' from a game, but you can rarely (if ever) get them all, especially when there are so many variables for an Online game.

Just today this talk has occured on Sarlona's boards with concerns to RP actually.. :)


From what I have seen, people have been driven away from DDO by the loot wh*#ing which pervades nearly every group. I mean, who hasn't been in a group where someone "undeserving" has pulled a set of +5 Mith FP after doing nothing to help the group, where you might get your ghost touch shield for half an hours furious key-pressing to keep the rest of the party alive?? When people see this, they tend to get bitter. This is why guild groups do raids in small numbers, not only because they are greedy, but to decrease the feeling of let-down when the loot goes to someone else. With games like LOTR where the loot is 'fixed' ie you know what choices you can get at the end of the quest, and where 'in-quest' loot is the occasional potion and silver, you know that when you get done with the quest you can get the item you most feel like. In LOTR there is no 'rinse and repeat' for uber gear. Some people enjoy that. Me, I love running pop dozens of times in the chance of getting something good, that's what draws me back. Am I a loot w*#@e? Probably :-) But I like gaming that way. I'm not big on voice chat, I don't feel the need to express my opinion on every role of the dice from go-to-woe... "Awww did you see me vorpal that guy!", "my spell just hit for 75432 HP!", "Wonder what will happen if I press this button"... DDO for me is fun, testing my characters against the game and trying to get the best loot. I don't care too much for the RP side of it, if I did I would go back to PnP.

I am completely the same. Without my PC working at present and with all the whining around and the fact that DDO lacks some aspects I would love to see, I was ready to go to LotRO. Now though with all the PAX discussion, I am instead staying. I am very stubborn and for sure I won't let anyone push me away till my pants are set on fire from the ship going down.

Role play is very much a very big aspect for me and I want to try and get Turbine to listen to us to implement some features that are already in another aspect of their G3 engine, so why not put them here too.


From someone who plays both DDO and LOTR, I think you will find people will be back. yes they leave DDO to play LOTR, but they will be let down. While good, LOTR is by no means great from an enjoyment point of view (beyond the 20 - 30 hour mark anyway). Combat is cheesier than my mums Lasagne, at least in DDO you can jump around and attack and fire bows and cast spells. People say "OK try moving in real life and firing a bow", but who the hell wants a game that simulates real life? Go play SIMS. This is what makes a fantasy world, abilities which defy what we as normal human beings are limited by. Where DDO is a grind from repetitive quest point of view, LOTR is a grind from the "OK I need 50 more ore, let me wait til it respawns" point of view. People will enjoy it or they won't. Like Everquest, it's not the be-all and end-all of a MMORPG.

As above, I was about to go but I am too stubborn to leave.


So what will make DDO better??

Chain quests... More chain quests.... Quests where if you get to the end of the chain, the loot isn't necessarily RAID loot, but based on the difficulty of the quest and the fact you have fought your way to the end. Maybe quests where you know what the end reward will be, before partaking. Classed-based rewards are also cheesy, as they in no way reflect classes properly.


Crafting... Crafting in LOTR is monotonous, but good when you want to pass the time without questing or dealing with people or when the servers are quiet and your mates are all at the footy. What fails in LOTR is that the craft items are 'generally' **** compared to what you get for quest rewards. Unique recipes are what's needed, where anybody can find a recipe and then be able to quest for the items needed for said recipe. People need not be skilled in crafting, but be able to take the items to an NPC and pay for an item to be made.

SETS... I'm talking groups of items that add bonuses the more items of the set you have. ie, Dragoncrafted Armor, Dragoncrafted helm, dragoncrafted shield, dragoncrafted boots.... get em all, and give you a dragon-like ability to breath fire (and not piddly burning hands). Give us something worth grinding for.

Guild Halls.... Already been discussed. Many features you could bring with guild halls that would make people enjoy DDO much more.

Random Quests... Imagine you are standing in the Wayward Lobster, and instead of clicking on some goon, you are approached by an NPC who has a quest for you. You have 1 minute to assemble a party or he goes elsewhere. OK this might be biased towards guild groups, but hey get in a guild if you're not, and if you don't want to, then tough, you just miss out if you can't get a group formed.

Crafting is a big must and it should be unique as D&D's system is unique in itself. Although to have a system where it takes days would be impractical but perhaps base the time around where maybe a day ingame may end up being a few hours or such. Therefore our characters can be placed somewhere, started to craft, and in a day our time the item should be done. Perhaps even longer since in D&D the items we make may/can be much more powerful than WoW crafted items or LotRO etc. This will make people whine more but to me as a player and DM it is more logical to lengthen the times.

Random Quests I would love to see, period. Something out of the ordinary where the game engine rolls on an encounter table and it brings up one option: Save a Phiarlan of royal blood. It sends you to an area which is selected from a list much like a wilderness area and you go from there.. I know this is sketchy and will have flaws but its the idea in my head, far from fleshed out.

Guild Halls would be great when we can make furniture, banners, etc.. good ol' crafting at its finest :)

Sets would be interesting but reminds me a bit of Diablo 2. If it was more for looks, I would be all for it. If it was for extra bonuses, I don't think I would be one to appreciate that in D&D. But nice idea otherwise :)

Um.. whats left.. Chain quest.. I left this to last since this is an automatic hell yes.. the chain quests are the most enjoyable part of D&D Online and to have more variety in this department, more creativity, would be a life saver to a great game. It would be good if the Devs would approach people on the forum to give concepts for quests, not necessarily make it from scratch but give the general idea of a plot outline, possible monsters, encounters, etc. Then they could run with it or dump it.

I'd be up for helping on that if they ever offered. I would care not how the mission ended up except that I helped with spurring the brain juices in creativity :)



PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't make me walk for 10 minutes to get somewhere! I really don't care to stretch my legs in the wilderness for more than a minute or 2. Threnal is good, a few goons to kill on the way, but I don't feel like I am running for half the night just to get to a quest! People will leave for that very reason. Some don't have the time to run for 15 minutes to get somewhere. Or if you bring in an instance like that where you can run / fight / loot / farm on the way to a location, at least make it so people can choose not to. yes you might have some where you need to run for 20 minutes fighting mobs every step of the way, that might actually be entertaining, but the dreaded Point A to Point B won't wash with a lot of people.

I would like to see more missions that have you walk to the quest like Threnal, etc. Maybe have a scattering of subquests that all happen along the way. More of that I would love with some nice scenery or locations, etc. I know we have them but those honestly are what I love to see while we have some shorter missions where you enter a door and voila, you are there, for when we don't have so much time to play (i.e. a work night, etc).


Anyway, I've babbled on long enough. Just a few reasons why I think people will be back to DDO (or its Replacement) and a few things I think would make it a better game. Please take what I have said with a grain of salt, and take no offense if you feel differently, these are just my thoughts and feelings.

Cheers,

I enjoyed your reply immensely :) Phew.. anyway.. my day is almost over at work. This is it from me for now.

[Anastasios]

Let's take a look at the big picture, just a couple of things I've noticed recently that makes me wonder about the future of the game.

1. Go to any video game store, or your normal buy video game enterprise and take a look at the shelves. No DDO, no Prepaid cards. You will see LOTRO games and cards, but a big negative on DDO.

2. Server Merge, the removal of half the servers on DDO, of course we can only wonder where they went, lol...

3. Delays of monthly updates.

4. Go to the Turbine Employment page, take a look at the job postings and look for any information pertinent to maybe new hires for DDO, although there will be none specifically stating to work on DDO, it can be safe to say that the openings have no real bias towards a game already over 1 and a 1/2 years old.

Now let's put some reasoning together. Turbine is a private company and of course being a private company you have limited resources at your expenditure-layman's=deep pocket's aren't really a private company's strength. So Turbine has put most of it's available resources into LOTRO, this is a no brainer, and it's trying to ride LOTRO for all it is worth, because in the grand scheme of things, Turbine only made so much money from DDO since it's inception. Think of the licenses, think of the wages, think of everything possible Turbine has had to pay for in regards to DDO, and for those who have been around since beta and day one, think of how much of a failure this game in regards to how many people this game had the first two months, and how many they have right now.

Now think of how much LOTRO has cost Turbine. I personally think they paid double the total amount for the licenses than DDO, and probably put more money into development than DDO. I haven't touched LOTRO, but I'll tell you what, I see a lot of shelf space dedicated to it at Best Buy, I see jobs offered at Turbine in regards to it, and I bet the population on the LOTRO servers are at a higher number than they are here at DDO.

If Turbine were forced to keep only of these two games, which would be the one. Some might say LOTRO, some might say DDO, but we all really know the real answer, Frodo would not be homeless and Velah would surely recieve a kick to the curb. No sense to ride the old horse in the Derby when you got the young Filly ready to go. It's almost safe to say DDO was the test platform for what not to do, and LOTRO is the resolution of righting the wrong. That is how I look at it, or I would hope for Turbine's sake, that is what is going down.

Now, does DDO make money at this stage in its life? Of course I mentioned Turbine is a private company, we may never get the real answer, but I believe it would be safe to say overall, it has, but I would imagine within the past year it has made substantially less than its first 6 mos. Of course taking resources from DDO to LOTRO is something I've mentioned a few times, I would imagine the servers went there, I would imagine that is where a lot of the customer service personnel are at (think of when it was a 5 min window to get a GM, now think of how long it takes), and I would imagine that is where Turbine's focus is at in general.

So I believe it is safe to assume that DDO is in what you call a long term development cycle, and long term meaning that the initial plans for DDO are nowhere near the timeline they were 6 months ago. Monks, Half orc's, Guild Housing, these were all part of a plan, that plan has drastically changed since the launch of LOTRO, and I can only think that the incorporation of these ideas may someday hit but then again they might not. The future of DDO is going to be based on the success of LOTRO in my opinion, and that is what troubles me because if Turbine stays successful with LOTRO, then they will want to put more into that game. If Turbine starts losing on LOTRO, then they will want to put more into LOTRO UNLESS they have another game up their sleeves, and if they do not, they will push LOTRO more than DDO because of the popularity of LOTR, and because they have put more money into it.

The only way I see DDO ever making a comeback is if one of two things happen. The first being that LOTRO becomes the MMO to play, Turbine then might consider funneling money and resources into an expansion for it's 'dead' franchise. This would breathe new life into a good game, although it would be a risk, because of it's track record. The second thing would probably be a buyout of Turbine by a much larger company, think of WoW for those who know Blizzard's history, of course I believe any company that did put money and resources into DDO would only do so knowing they would make money and might change the game for the better or for the worse.

I think that I can only say that DDO is a MMO that is nearing its judgement day, and I believe that the financial bads easily outweigh the good in this game's situation. The recent changes, the recent delays, the recent other happenings at Turbine only reinforce this aspect and it is safe to say that DDO is not priority one, it might not even be priority two, and that does not necessarily mean bad for DDO, but it also does not bode well.

Eventually we might get some 'good' news in regards to DDO that has some real bearing upon this game, but why tell people this game is dead as a company when you can still make a buck or two. Not saying that that is happening here, but you never know, business is business, and they won't ever tell us the obvious, which we all already know-this game does need people to survive, and due to our population, I can only think that more people will leave due to boredom by the end of the year than there will be new players coming and playing this game and actually staying.

And when you really think about it, other games have much more to offer than this game anyways, I don't blame anyone for not sticking around and playing this game, considering the fact that most of the population has run these quests over and over and over again, I'd rather play something new with other new people and learn with them.

As for your role play server, good luck, good idea for alot of the RPer's, sad part is, it could have been an easy thing for Turbine to do that would have breathed new life into this game, especially since they just did the server merge and EASILY COULD HAVE incorporated this. Sorry about your luck, although there are many other games that will accept you.

[Dingo123]

This game requires far too much in terms of player teamwork for it to last much longer.

I mean I WANTED to play recently...

but I couldn't.

First I set up my LFG flag.

And waited.

Then I tried to create my own team.

And waited.

Finally I started scanning for teams that I could just take part in with my character at all.

Nothing.

So I began scanning for teams my OTHER characters could take part in... but by then all that was left was two high level teams.

I logged off in frustration.

This is on argobar... one of the most populated servers...

I want this game to succeed SO BAD... but the Devs keep mucking it up.

[Attomic]

I'll retort and then let this exchange die. I don't frequent these forums...and I'm not aware what is on other threads. Nor do I care. I am here to support a guildmates thread, and all my feedback is legit, based on fact and experience, and I can express whatever views I **** well please.

You, in turn, are interjecting in a well-stated, legit conversation in this thread with baseless criticism. No one is forcing you to read this thread, so just don't. It's really quite simple.

FYI, proclaiming that your part in a discussion is "well-stated" and "legit" does not necessarily make it so. Self-analysis, brother.

[Anastasios]

This game requires far too much in terms of player teamwork for it to last much longer.

I mean I WANTED to play recently...
........................
.......................

I logged off in frustration.

This is on argobar... one of the most populated servers...

I want this game to succeed SO BAD... but the Devs keep mucking it up.

It's sad, you try doing something or getting something done, but most people are content with their 'peeps' or really don't like new blood. They'll tell you 'join our guild, we rock' and then you'll have the same problem coz IMO guilds end up limiting you to a certain degree. I wouldn't call this a dev problem, I'd put this up as a population issue, and in this game, it is a sad truth that this happens to people. Of course I'm guilty of it, but noone can tell me I don't outlet or mingle with people I don't know, I've been pleasently surprised recently by certain groups so hopefully you have better luck in the future.

[bandyman1]

FYI, proclaiming that your part in a discussion is "well-stated" and "legit" does not necessarily make it so. Self-analysis, brother.

FYI, I found his viewpoints totally legit. And I also see that he has more than enough experience with the game to offer some insight into this discussion. He's been here since the game launched. That gives him lots of understanding of the workings of the game with which to offer input.

[llevenbaxx]

While I dont agree with the dying thing, I do agree something big is missing. Since the merge I regularly group with players who are completely unfamiliar with game. Just a matter of making a bigger percentage of them stick with it.
The merge will be a play a huge part. With a greater number of quests than at launch to keep new players busy, there are now a sufficient number of people to get groups.

I do also think it is the role-playing/just hang out in the world(Stormreach) living their characters life type of players that are most noticably absent. I think they already figured this out though, they are adding many of the side things that will flesh out who a character is. Questing alone is not enough for a very large number of people imo, they need more. I think "the more" is coming, albeit a bit slowly.

[Kalanth]

1. Go to any video game store, or your normal buy video game enterprise and take a look at the shelves. No DDO, no Prepaid cards. You will see LOTRO games and cards, but a big negative on DDO.

I did just what you suggested, and man was I dissapointed! Not only did I find two boxes with several more behind the counter at the store in the mall, but the Best Buy, Circuit City, and Target all still had copies! **** it all, how am I going to live knowing that stores in my area are still selling the game?

[Rason]

I did just what you suggested, and man was I dissapointed! Not only did I find two boxes with several more behind the counter at the store in the mall, but the Best Buy, Circuit City, and Target all still had copies! **** it all, how am I going to live knowing that stores in my area are still selling the game?

Is that LotRO or DDO that they still stock?

I found Marrra's and my copies of DDO at a clearance sale for $30 AUD each which I am glad to say I got my hands on. Turbine and Atari need to bundle up a Module 5 version box to sell out there.

[Anastasios]

I did just what you suggested, and man was I dissapointed! Not only did I find two boxes with several more behind the counter at the store in the mall, but the Best Buy, Circuit City, and Target all still had copies! **** it all, how am I going to live knowing that stores in my area are still selling the game?

Clearance bins, bargain bins, they don't even publish the game anymore. What does that tell you, maybe the publisher has already given up?? I bought the game last month for 10 bucks for a friend to try out, hold on, even better go to Gamestop.com, or bestbuy.com. Tell me what you find.....Proof enough for ya, maybe you just wished those games were there and they just 'magically' appeared, lol.

[Drith]

I love DDO.

My entire guild loves DDO as well.

None of us are going anywhere anytime soon.

Most important of all the direction that Turbine is taking with the game moving forward has all of us very excited for the future of DDO and all of us are very excited in anticipation for MOD 5 and MOD 6.

Keep it up Turbine, you're going down the right path!

[Aesop]

I would like to see advertising! When another game releases new quests and new content they advertise...because you pay to buy the new content. Turbine gives us free content but never tells the people not playing the game that there is something new. Each module should be advertised with the same zeal as an xpack. Example:

In a gaming magazine splash "Dungeon's and Dragons's Online. Module 6 'Gate's of Fernia'. Come bear witness to the dark elven invasion - forces bearing mighty new magic from the Fire Giants! With the purchase of DDO you receive this module with Xxx number of new quests and for the price of monthly admission you continue to get module after module FREE!"

Then when Module 7 comes out they rinse and repeat.


**FYI - we had similar suggestions for AC2 but they let that game die too.

well then... maybe they need to do a Paid Expansion. Get some new money into the works something new to see on the shelves of the Geek Stores. It would have to be Epic though in nature... maybe make it the Prestige Class Release and add the City of Sharn the gate way to the mainland maybe have it include new abilities like flying. Maybe make that expand into Epic Levels.

anyway I think that would give a resurgence to the game.

Aesop

[Kanai]

FYI, proclaiming that your part in a discussion is "well-stated" and "legit" does not necessarily make it so. Self-analysis, brother.

For the love of god...a "conversation" involves more than one person. Go re-read my post, homes. I wasn't talking about MYSELF, I was talking about everyone's posts.

And I am pleased to see all the valid feedback that is continuing to come in. I hope that Turbine takes notice of our constructive comments and takes them to heart in their plans for the future.

Happy gaming, everyone.

[Rason]

And I am pleased to see all the valid feedback that is continuing to come in. I hope that Turbine takes notice of our constructive comments and takes them to heart in their plans for the future.

Happy gaming, everyone.

Thanks all. My only wish is that this thread doesn't get closed or pushed aside because it becomes bitter. Patience explained why PAX was like what it was (I believe it would have been better putting eggs in both baskets but that is me) and I would like to hope we could move onto the more constructive and, now that we've put down on the table about DDO being absent in general, try to fuel more ideas into DDO.

What else would you like to be seen/changed? What part of D&D did you absolutely love that you would have loved seeing in a game of today or perhaps believe that you won't see in a game since it is built more for tabletop pen and paper?

[Kalanth]

Is that LotRO or DDO that they still stock?

Hate to be a putz, but then again, I love being a putz. It was DDO, of course.

[smarta$$]Why would I say something like that about LoTRO when we are talking about DDO?[/smarta$$]


Clearance bins, bargain bins, they don't even publish the game anymore. What does that tell you, maybe the publisher has already given up?? I bought the game last month for 10 bucks for a friend to try out, hold on, even better go to Gamestop.com, or bestbuy.com. Tell me what you find.....Proof enough for ya, maybe you just wished those games were there and they just 'magically' appeared, lol.

Actually, they were brand new and at full price ($49.99) on the shelf. There are more than a few MMO's out there, btw, that still bring in new players but don't put the game on the shelf. Matrix Online is one, as it is bundled up with a special deal SoE has. I am sure some still play EQ 1 (if the servers are still up on it) and when was the last time you saw that for sale?

Atari is not a fan of pluging their old stuff, which is why there were not the best company to work with for an MMO. But, Turbine had little choice because Atari has the gaming rights to D&D computer games.

[Borrigain]

....that even the most well-intentioned thread degenerates after the first couple of posts?

Trolls, shoo....go elsewhere. Go stand on a street corner with a sign or something. We were trying to give ideas on what could help DDO.

As for what I think:

1) Extended chain-quests. Can't start the next until you complete the first. However, once completed, you can go back and repeat any chain-quest. (kinda like Threnal). The one I loved so dearly from PnP was G1-3, followed by D1-3, and cumulating in Q1.

2) Make a new city or village for that matter to travel to with a couple of quests there. BUT.........when you talk to marketplace NPC, he gives you the option to teleport there, OR.......allow you to travel there. This large open landscape is like public area and is a PvP free-fire zone (not sure how to handle contact with other parties for those who want to avoid conflict...maybe a "you come upon another party" dialogue box, "do you engage?" requiring both parties to say yes to initiate PvP). Also here is your collect 50 jackanapes for crafting and several "spawn camping" mini-quests for those who like that kind of thing.

3) Crafting from the collectibles you find in missions and the free-fire zone. Do this in town via paid NPC crafters, or have feat/enhancement for crafting that you can then do yourself in your Guild Hall.

Uh, oh, boss just saw me goofing off. Better get back to work.

Ideas people, remember, the OP is looking for ideas, not DOOOOOOOOOMMMM, :)
Borr.

[Rason]

[smarta$$]Why would I say something like that about LoTRO when we are talking about DDO?[/smarta$$]

It just sounded like the shop had ample copies both on shelves and behind the counter. Now I reread it, I notice you meant they had ample BEHIND the counter in a nice hiding place.. my bad.. :P

Anyway, on with the thread :)

Edit:


Ideas people, remember, the OP is looking for ideas, not DOOOOOOOOOMMMM, :)
Borr.

Here here :) Oh and the boss comment? I know the feeling, my boss is behind me :)

[Dane_McArdy]

*Sadness*

Had already seen the varous postings about there being no DDO at PAX - but for the Turbine worker to be ignorant of DDO even existing? Wunnerful.:(

In regard to claims of "doom posting" ... We study history in the hopes that we can learn what pitfalls to avoid. If the signs of impending failure are repeating themselves, then we should all try to wake somebody up and try to steer clear of the same path that has been taken before.

cdbd3rd, you should know better then to fall for that kind of reasoning.

All they are doing is writing their post to make it seem like the LoTRO staff at PAX had no idea DDO existed. Come on!

It's not facts, it's purple prose.


"The way she looked at me, the guilty expressions, the akward silence when ever I mentioned, nay, pleaded for any information on DDO, even crumb! But all I got was mocking laughs at my devotion to a game that died before it even began..."

Whatever.

[Kalanth]

It just sounded like the shop had ample copies both on shelves and behind the counter. Now I reread it, I notice you meant they had ample BEHIND the counter in a nice hiding place.. my bad.. :P

Actually, you got it right the first time. They had plenty on the shelfs and behind the counter. But, as you said, back to the originally scheduled thread.

[Twerpp]

Great post!

I'm not asking for a complete overhaul of the games mechanic, if that is something they are considering they should just do DDO2 and this time in Forgotten Realms please or Planescape, set this game in the city of doors and you literally can make all the people happy all the time, any quest, race, sub-race, class, etc becomes possible.

Adding classes and prestige classes..well the potential is there. They are called core classes for a reason...prestige classes are often just enhancements/additions/modification to a core class. For example a War Hulk, similar to fighter, stop giving the character BAB, give STR bonuses instead. That's oversimplifying I know, but if Turbine took what was already there and modified it, like re-skin PK tendrils brown and green and making them hold stuff, voila! Now you have entangle! Would that please people? It would work for me. I'm not a programmer, is that possible? Is it as easy as it sounds? Would it be that hard to implement the damage bonuses and critical multipliers of a weapon master? Or Dwarven Defender? And more importantly would it attract more players and create new interest for those of us already invested in the game? It would for me.

Throw in some sub races, take dwarves for example:
Would it be hard to give us Gold Dwarves, Duergar, Shield Dwarves (or their Eberron equivalent)? With different respective bonuses to stats, and slightly different enhancements? Maybe in creation lock out different skin tones for whatever sub-race applies. Can do the same for Moon/Wood elf they already have Drow. Half-Orcs? Well Orcs are already here, but I can see how that would be more difficult than sub-races. And then you start talking about shifters/druid shifting well then I can really see things taking a long time...is there a shifting animation? Where does their stuff go when they are a bear/badger/or dire giraffe or since this is Eberron maybe a dire clawfoot or something nuts.

Would cleric domains be that hard? A certain bonus here or there or the ability to cast whatever arcane spell...you could even throw the properties on a bound item if that makes it easier.

Anyway my point is maybe there are a lot of things that can be done on a faster timeline than "when are half-orcs coming? Mod whatever due whenevers we get around to it in the near future!" Things that would probably not only sate us for a while but maybe even attract more players...and with as little work as changing some stats around, apllying different weapon bonuses and skill checks, and misc bonuses and penalties to respective race/class/domain etc.

Would you guys rather see this stuff in weekly dev activities, or minor mechanic issues like

*Minotaurs may occasionally use thrown weapons if charging headlong at an opponent doesn’t seem to be working.

*Now if you are a divine caster and are using wands or scrolls of divine types and you happen to be under the effect of Quell’s Intercession, you will have to perform a UMD check just like every non divine caster type.

Who cares?

Imagine this instead

*Upon reaching 400 favor on any Dwarf/elf character, you will unlock and be able to create different sub-races of dwarves/elves respectively.
*In the character creation menu after selecting a dwarf/elven race and class you will be prompted for an optional sub-race. Your character will recieve the stat bonuses and penalties respective to its race (IE +2 CON -4 CHA for Duergar), and only be able to select avatar features such as skin tones common to that sub-race ie dark grays and blacks for Duergar.

ENHANCEMENTS
*Duergar will have the following enhancements

Stability 1
Cost 1 AP
+1 to save vs DC of trips,stun, etc

Stablity 2
etc etc Ive gone on with this for too long...but these are my suggestions y'all!

[salmag]

I have been with DDO since Beta. I would like to see the game marketed better. This will get people up to date on what this game is all about.

As for changes that I think this game needs:

1. New cities. Explore Xendrik and Korvhaire some more. Possibly open areas. In Asherons Call, one thing I enjoyed was coming upon someone and hearing their cry for help; going over to help them out, possibly making a new friend.

2. More races, and classes. D&D worlds are the most diverse in RPing. This should include psionics. Kalashtar, Shifters, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-orcs, Changelings, etc... Druids, Monks, etc... Add prestige classes after core races and classes have been brought in.

3. Guild homes, and class specific meeting halls. A place where guildies can gather, and where rogues, rangers, etc... can meet and possibly buy class specific items, do class specific quests, etc...

4. Crafting. The ability to dye armor, possibly improve armor and equipment, dependant on skills.

5. Quest chains. Random quests. Random dungeons. All great ideas, that I agree with.

I think that all this should probably be done with an expansion, and not through updates. D&D 4.0 is going to be released and this game should possibly have an update to bring it in line with those products.

As for Role Playing, I am all for opening a RP server. Overall, this product is a good one, but it can definitely be improved, if Turbine, Atari, and WotC care enough about the franchise. I enjoy DDO; I hope they do care enough about it. I don't play LOTRO, WOW, or EQ, because D&D is what I cut my I-teeth on.

Just my 2 cp.

[Rason]

As an addition to the guild housing, how about player housing? The way I read LotRO, their player housing will be instanced, therefore minimising the amount of houses scene. Perhaps you go into the 'neighbourhood' and it has various instances to accomodate houses.

Maybe it could be like Guild Wars and their solution which is you never see the house, you just 'teleport' there as such.

Would it be worthwhile even when there would be guild housing?

[Attomic]

FYI, I found his viewpoints totally legit. And I also see that he has more than enough experience with the game to offer some insight into this discussion. He's been here since the game launched. That gives him lots of understanding of the workings of the game with which to offer input.

Headstart here, man; don't let the "join date" fool you. The point I was making is that when a person starts talking about his own legitimacy is usually the point at which the listener should really start not accepting that legitimacy at face value. And just agreeing with an opinion does not make it any more or less legitimate.

Understand this: the expectations of the individual can and do always shade their perceptions. Understanding the difference between one's preferences and the realities of a situation is key to having a fully cognizant AND metacognizant perspective on one's own situation. Is Stormreach dying? No. It's just not living up to some people's opinion of what should be happening with it... and that's neither the game's fault nor those people's fault, but recognizing that cognitive gap helps everyone. Should Turbine be advertising DDO? I genuinely hate to do this, but let me answer that with a question: how much good will advertising actually DO? (I am VERY skeptical of the ROI from advertising.) Should they be flooding shelves with boxes? It doesn't make business sense to do so when the online download gets the job done - and the pseudo-advertising of having a physical box there is counteracted by the often-recounted story of biased, uninformed store workers steering people away from the game.

Most importantly, it really hasn't been that long since Gianthold/Stormreaver came out - patience would dictate that we wait and see exactly what this mod's going to do. I'm choosing to take the quasi-optimistic route of hoping they're taking so long because they're working their tails off to make it better, to make it worth the wait (which is what a lot of people said about GH).

As for the RP part... RPers have had their work cut out for them from the beginning, with the lack of an active DM. I can think of a number of different ways of handling in-group RP with both a static development situation and game growth, but that's a personal take on it. An RP server... I honestly have no idea what that would entail logistically and whether it would be financially feasible on Turbine's part. I guess that's my way of saying I don't have an opinion that matters on this one. :)

[Mattax]

Headstart here, man; don't let the "join date" fool you. The point I was making is that when a person starts talking about his own legitimacy is usually the point at which the listener should really start not accepting that legitimacy at face value. And just agreeing with an opinion does not make it any more or less legitimate.

Understand this: the expectations of the individual can and do always shade their perceptions. Understanding the difference between one's preferences and the realities of a situation is key to having a fully cognizant AND metacognizant perspective on one's own situation. Is Stormreach dying? No. It's just not living up to some people's opinion of what should be happening with it... and that's neither the game's fault nor those people's fault, but recognizing that cognitive gap helps everyone. Should Turbine be advertising DDO? I genuinely hate to do this, but let me answer that with a question: how much good will advertising actually DO? (I am VERY skeptical of the ROI from advertising.) Should they be flooding shelves with boxes? It doesn't make business sense to do so when the online download gets the job done - and the pseudo-advertising of having a physical box there is counteracted by the often-recounted story of biased, uninformed store workers steering people away from the game.

Most importantly, it really hasn't been that long since Gianthold/Stormreaver came out - patience would dictate that we wait and see exactly what this mod's going to do. I'm choosing to take the quasi-optimistic route of hoping they're taking so long because they're working their tails off to make it better, to make it worth the wait (which is what a lot of people said about GH).

As for the RP part... RPers have had their work cut out for them from the beginning, with the lack of an active DM. I can think of a number of different ways of handling in-group RP with both a static development situation and game growth, but that's a personal take on it. An RP server... I honestly have no idea what that would entail logistically and whether it would be financially feasible on Turbine's part. I guess that's my way of saying I don't have an opinion that matters on this one. :)

No Active DM doesn't matter. I played MxO, I currently play EVE Online. Both of those games are RICH with RP and USE it to keep the game experiance and immersion on a higher level. Granted MxO had crappy game mechanics (even after CR 2.0) and that is why I don't play it anymore. Plus PvP meant nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Now EVE Online, well you got something going there. I love that game. The story is deep and rich and your action MATTER in the game. You go blow up someones ship in PvP and that STINGS BAD! They are out hours or even weeks of game-play. Now I realize that EVE is hardcore and not for everyone, but EVERYONE agrees they like when thier actions make a differance in the game world.

RP tries to do this. In DDO how do you do that? Well you can't. At least not with the gameplay mechanics given to us. But with RP, we create storylines that integrate with what is given to us in game and we try to use it to immerse ourselves into the game more. In DDO it takes more work. This turns off many people who have RPed or would like to RP.

You don't NEED a human DM to RP in this game. There are other games out there that don't have one and have much better RP then this game.

When I started The Lightstorm's Dragonslayers we were a "Heavy RP guild" I would get a BUNCH of people to join with a lot of hopes of some HEAVY RP. After a few days or weeks they realized that heavy RP can't really exist in this game without having to work really hard at it. So they quit our guild and became powergamers or they quit DDO totally.

I had to change our guild type to just plain RP guild to attract anyone and also let people know we do other types of gameplay when we don't feel like working so hard at trying to immerse ourselves in RP.

We try to RP as much as possible. But we (and any others) are only going to do it if its fun. And lately its harder and harder to do that.

We have been more creative lately in how to incorporate RP into DDO and I think we may be coming to a turn around for that. Time will tell.

It sure would be great to get Turbine to help us out and throw us a bone...

[Anastasios]

No Active DM doesn't matter. I played MxO, I currently play EVE Online. Both of those games are RICH with RP and USE it to keep the game experiance and immersion on a higher level. Granted MxO had crappy game mechanics (even after CR 2.0) and that is why I don't play it anymore. Plus PvP meant nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Now EVE Online, well you got something going there. I love that game. The story is deep and rich and your action MATTER in the game. You go blow up someones ship in PvP and that STINGS BAD! They are out hours or even weeks of game-play. Now I realize that EVE is hardcore and not for everyone, but EVERYONE agrees they like when thier actions make a differance in the game world.


Agree wholeheartedly with you onEVE, I need to get back there and play some more and I am not a RP'r, but that game does a good job of intermingling the two IMO. Good call.

[oogly54]

There have been a lot of great ideas here, keep up the good work. My two cents:

DnD is so great (IMO) because of the ability to make any character type you want. The most important addition to this game is races and classes. Bring them in in hordes and people will come back to this game. I admit I hate running many of the lower level quest because I have ran them so many times, but I would run all of them again in a heart beat if it meant I could make a Dungeon Delver Deep Gnome. I would run them again if I could make any unique new character type.

We keep getting "monthly" updates, I would suggest adding content every other, and adding races/classes every other. Some of the big improvments of the game would come in a pay for expansion.

Most of the people who are left in this game are hardcore DnD guys & gals who love this game. I would pay for a 50$ expansion a couple times a year and still pay the 15$ a month. Right now our census is at ~30k subscriptions, charge us 50$ for a really good expansion and you make a quick 1.5 million and lure back easily another 30k subscriptions. Repeat in 6 months and lure more to the game, rinseand repeat. In January our subscription rate was at ~90k, half of the 60k that left since didn't leave because they disliked the game, they disliked the lack of content and lack of variety in the game. An expansion would bring many, many of them back. The advertisment and re-release at the stores would also bring in many new players. This game has so much more to offer new players than when we started, I can't see new players getting bored nearly as quickly as we did. They do not have to wait for level increases and fresh content. It is here.

ATARI, TURBINE, WOTC
IF YOU CONTINUE TO TREAT THIS MANY PEOPLE POORLY, YOU WILL NOT ONLY LOSE THEM IN THIS GAME, BUT WE WILL HAVE NO FAITH IN YOU FOR FUTURE GAMES! MARKET AND ADVERTISE PROPERLY AND AT LEAST TRY OR LOSE MANY PEOPLE FOR LIFE!!! NO PRESENSE IN A GAMING CONVENTION IS RIDICULOUS, NO PRESENSE IN GAMING STORES IS CRIMINAL!

[teddok]

Nice I love this thread very well thought out.

[Ringlord]

Well I just checked ebgames.com and gamestop.com and both places had DDO for sale and a download version as well for $29.99

Granted that is not a physical presence in actual stores, but it is still out there and still being published. I could not find the game on Best Buys web site, but they sell so much more than just gaming stuff they are much more limited in the merchandise they offer. Hey they did not even have the pre-order for Conan or the next WoW expansion like EB and Gamestop did so does that mean those two products are going to fail?

My request for the future of DDO is for forum posters to lighten up on the paranoia over perceived doom and gloom. I know it is tough to do since we go through this about every 6 months on these boards and this is the third time I have watched the same type of threads come and go and we will very likely see it all happen again come February 2008.

[oogly54]

I think the dooom and glooom is coming more from the fact our subscriptions are down, we are getting very little response from GM, and there is little to no advertisment going on for the game. We have lost 65%-75% of our subscriptions and comparing our game date to other games, we are not doing well.

Check this out:

http://mmogdata.voig.com/

Click on subscriptions and see the trends of all the major MMOs since 1997.

The pay for expansion is the way to go to have continued growth for the game. Guild wars is ran by expansions and if you look at the growth they have had it is step like, corresponding to the release of new expansions, pay to play. In no way is Guild Wars as good a game as this. But the method for attracting customers and building excitment is in the release of new content through expansion and advertisment for that expansion. A relatively crappy game, but GW has grown to over 3.5 million subscribers to date.

[Anastasios]

Well I just checked ebgames.com and gamestop.com and both places had DDO for sale and a download version as well for $29.99

Granted that is not a physical presence in actual stores, but it is still out there and still being published. I could not find the game on Best Buys web site, but they sell so much more than just gaming stuff they are much more limited in the merchandise they offer. Hey they did not even have the pre-order for Conan or the next WoW expansion like EB and Gamestop did so does that mean those two products are going to fail?

My request for the future of DDO is for forum posters to lighten up on the paranoia over perceived doom and gloom. I know it is tough to do since we go through this about every 6 months on these boards and this is the third time I have watched the same type of threads come and go and we will very likely see it all happen again come February 2008.

OK, call me crazy, last night before I posted for people to look online at Gamestop.com and Bestbuy.com, I specifically made sure that I wasn't posting some garbage and be disproved, after reading your post I went online and checked for some verification as to what you happened to post, and what do I see, the same thing you mentioned. Keep in mind I was on the Gamestop website last night making sure DDO WAS NOT there, and I know it wasn't, I searched everywhere on Gamestop.com to make sure I was right in my words.

I'm kind of stunned and I will tell you why. A month or so ago, one of my friends was planning on trying the game out. Now mind you I tried to find a copy of the game within about a 50 mile radius from where I live. I've got 2 major cities within and many many many suburbs. To no avail could I find a copy when I searched online at BB.com, eb.com, walmart.com, and CC.com. So I decided to go to a gamestop, eventually they called another gamestop 25 miles away which said they had one, and that it was on sale for 10.99, so I went to go get the copy and it was the only copy and it was in a bargain bin-you know, the bin that is reserved for the games that are outdated, games noone wants but will sell at low prices. I asked them if they carry game cards and they said no, they checked to see if anyone does and the same answer was no. DDO used to have game cards, maybe that was an Atari deal also. Fact is I know a month ago you couldn't get the game online at these websites, and I know yesterday night before my post DDO was not in the list of games at Gamestop or EB.com (same diff I know). I will tell you this, last night I did see AC2 on the list, and I did double and triple check, and all I found in regards to DDO was the Prima Strat guide.

Along with my searching a month ago, and after my search last night (I hope someone else searched last night also and can vouche for me which would be funny) and then seeing it up there 5 mins ago, I'm aghast, pretty weird, I wonder if we have spies checking up on us and making sure that certain worries are ill-founded and that the ship is being righted. Crazy, I'm speechless...weird coincidence?? Beats me, who knows...

[Mercules]

The pay for expansion is the way to go to have continued growth for the game. Guild wars is ran by expansions and if you look at the growth they have had it is step like, corresponding to the release of new expansions, pay to play. In no way is Guild Wars as good a game as this. But the method for attracting customers and building excitment is in the release of new content through expansion and advertisment for that expansion. A relatively crappy game, but GW has grown to over 3.5 million subscribers to date.

It's not so obvious when you look at CoH which only had a stand-alone/expansion. The majority of their content update is FREE. Then again they do have presence on the shelves of stores by releasing their product again. CoH was re-released in a DVD version that included a new power/cape. CoV while stand alone also expanded CoH. The Good Vrs. Evil was nothing new, just CoH and CoV packaged together. However, these occasional reminders of the game are enough to keep consumers aware that the game is still out there.

DDO -lacks- that shelf presence and thus the general public's awareness that the game exists and is still going. A re-release of the game with some special bonus for buying the updated version might generate new interest in the game. If nothing else it reminds consumer X that the game is still going and that they had thought about trying it out.

[JTsays]

Excellent thread gang, hats off.

I’ve found the combat in DDO to be absolutely great, IMO. I’ve only played AC, so that’s my single game for comparison, but I have heard this from a few others too. I think this feature can keep DDO around for some time. I figure the RP’rs just kinda make their own game without a DM, and the encounters are a real enough DM for that portion of questing. I’ve not done it so I cannot really comment much, however if there was a dedicated server, I can roll up a free guy on that server and jump in if I felt adventurous.

I like how this game is friendly for the casual gamer. The quest series can be picked up where you left off and completed when you find the time again. We have power gamers too. I believe that Turbine started to fragment these as since some are prerequisites to raids, there was some complaining about the repetitiveness of the chain. I am referring to the Vons vs. the desert quests. I like chains, so long as they are independent of raids. From a story line point of view, they kinda should be directly related , but, a compromise may be needed.for balancing what different folks want out of the game. Or, possible both, the chain may flag you forever for the raid, like the Stormreaver.

I am fond of the city for getting access to quests, the continent in AC was, well, really big. This kept me in this game, you know, not running forever just to start a quest. There are time constraints in the real world. I like the random NPC idea as well, so long as it bestows the quest to everyone present, ie. no camping the NPC . I’m not sure if you have to run it immediately or within a certain time frame or whenever you get a chance.

Character development is big part of DDO too. There seems to be a bunch of debate about building cookie cutter builds and multiclassed optimized min/max’ers. Adding a bucket-load of races and sub-races may add enough variety to the mix there will be no real optimized build. And the prestige classes will keep the hardcore players interested, giving them something between content releases. I’d be cautious about making any race/class overpowered.

The monty haul loot is overpowering in DDO. I don’t really think you can fix it, this may be a problem. When gianthold opened for business it started to sprinkle vorpals and smiters and such. So much so, the baddies in the Tor has blanket immunites! What will happen when the level cap rises again and it starts to rain uber loot? Will there be more quests with untouchable monsters? It may be the only fix, I’m not sure.

I barely played PnP, but I did play D&D. This is what brought me to DDO, well rl friends too. Of the folks I run in to who have just started playing DDO very recently, most say the same thing, the D&D aspect brought them here. I know from this thread and experience it isn’t marketing the product that bringing new customers into Stormreach. However, it is far, far cheaper to retain existing customers and even regain old ones than to get a new one. I hope Turbine / Atari are attempting any/all of the three.

Well sorry to ramble on so much , maybe I actually like this game.

I’d better go catch some employees goofing off on that intar-web thingee.

[Twerpp]

I think the dooom and glooom is coming more from the fact our subscriptions are down, we are getting very little response from GM, and there is little to no advertisment going on for the game. We have lost 65%-75% of our subscriptions and comparing our game date to other games, we are not doing well.

Check this out:

http://mmogdata.voig.com/

Click on subscriptions and see the trends of all the major MMOs since 1997.

The pay for expansion is the way to go to have continued growth for the game. Guild wars is ran by expansions and if you look at the growth they have had it is step like, corresponding to the release of new expansions, pay to play. In no way is Guild Wars as good a game as this. But the method for attracting customers and building excitment is in the release of new content through expansion and advertisment for that expansion. A relatively crappy game, but GW has grown to over 3.5 million subscribers to date.
Wow it says DDO went from 90,000 subsrciptions to 25,000 from March to April....thats a serious pay cut if its true.

[Snike]

How they get thier data is pretty flawed, it's not good #s like what the companies could provide. Look at Runescape. Seriously doubt they went up 5 million subs in 2 months.

Not saying DDO subs havent dropped to 25k from 90k, but I seriously doubt it happened in a month span.

[Attomic]

No Active DM doesn't matter. I played MxO, I currently play EVE Online. Both of those games are RICH with RP and USE it to keep the game experiance and immersion on a higher level. Granted MxO had crappy game mechanics (even after CR 2.0) and that is why I don't play it anymore. Plus PvP meant nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Now EVE Online, well you got something going there. I love that game. The story is deep and rich and your action MATTER in the game. You go blow up someones ship in PvP and that STINGS BAD! They are out hours or even weeks of game-play. Now I realize that EVE is hardcore and not for everyone, but EVERYONE agrees they like when thier actions make a differance in the game world.

RP tries to do this. In DDO how do you do that? Well you can't. At least not with the gameplay mechanics given to us. But with RP, we create storylines that integrate with what is given to us in game and we try to use it to immerse ourselves into the game more. In DDO it takes more work. This turns off many people who have RPed or would like to RP.

You don't NEED a human DM to RP in this game. There are other games out there that don't have one and have much better RP then this game.

When I started The Lightstorm's Dragonslayers we were a "Heavy RP guild" I would get a BUNCH of people to join with a lot of hopes of some HEAVY RP. After a few days or weeks they realized that heavy RP can't really exist in this game without having to work really hard at it. So they quit our guild and became powergamers or they quit DDO totally.

I had to change our guild type to just plain RP guild to attract anyone and also let people know we do other types of gameplay when we don't feel like working so hard at trying to immerse ourselves in RP.

We try to RP as much as possible. But we (and any others) are only going to do it if its fun. And lately its harder and harder to do that.

We have been more creative lately in how to incorporate RP into DDO and I think we may be coming to a turn around for that. Time will tell.

It sure would be great to get Turbine to help us out and throw us a bone...

Interesting, although I don't agree with the bit about persistence; how does a persistent world (i.e., one that you can change permanently by your actions) not put less-than-full-time gamers on the back burner?

One thought that comes to me about DDO RP: you could always treat each day and every dungeon like a tabula rasa, starting effectively from scratch each time you start a new day or run the same dungeon. Or you could make it a point to do each and every quest out there and not just a core group; this would certainly expand the continued-RP possibilities. Are these viable ideas for your RP approach?

The reason I was putting the focus on a live, human DM is that the only RP style I'm familiar with is a fully-interactive, flexible, mutable world, which does require a live DM. But you mentioned the difference between "light" and "heavy" RP - what are those and how do they come into the equation?

[Rason]

One thought that comes to me about DDO RP: you could always treat each day and every dungeon like a tabula rasa, starting effectively from scratch each time you start a new day or run the same dungeon. Or you could make it a point to do each and every quest out there and not just a core group; this would certainly expand the continued-RP possibilities. Are these viable ideas for your RP approach?

They are :) Because I play with a variety of people at times, and telling the newcomers exactly, in RP, where each trap is, etc, is verging on non-RP. The clean slate idea works well and I know it can get monotonous if you replay them over.. and over.. and over.. but there is enough quests to give us a variety for now :)

[Attomic]

They are :) Because I play with a variety of people at times, and telling the newcomers exactly, in RP, where each trap is, etc, is verging on non-RP. The clean slate idea works well and I know it can get monotonous if you replay them over.. and over.. and over.. but there is enough quests to give us a variety for now :)

If I were doing RP, I'd scratch that "verging on" and replace it with "definitely". :)

[Rason]

If I were doing RP, I'd scratch that "verging on" and replace it with "definitely". :)

Okay, so I was stepping over that gently. I tend to get very political at times :D

*jumps over the line* See? Happy? :D

[Strakeln]

I read the OP's post, and while I think he is making some good points, the desire to have "big areas to walk around in" is just getting old. I know other MMOs have that. I'm glad we don't. As it is, I burn through thousands in plat paying for teleport scrolls on my sorc, bard, rogue, and ranger... just to get from house to house. I don't want to spend my free time walking and loading, I'm much rather spend it playing.

Besides, I would argue that the areas you ask for already exist. Go explore tangleroot, or the desert, or gianthold, or the c. hills, or atraxia's haven. Or walk between the desert and gianthold.

[Rason]

Good points everyone. It is good to see everyones ideas and where they stand. Let us see how long we can keep this thread alive :)

[Ildaron]

One of the things I believe would help the game is if it helped captured immersion. Something I remember the developers saying very early on in the game. I would love it if when I put away my weapons they appeared on my character. Swords at the side, bows on my back, a quiver of arrows. (I'd love to see a cloak with a hood up and hood down feature.) To be able to sit down at the tavren and chat with my friends as if I were truly in Stormreach.

Or have my little Wizard sit inside his little magic lab and make himself some cloudkill scrolls, or perhaps some deminsion door scrolls for my sorceror. Craft a magic sword or three, make a few wands and magic rings as he complains about Arlos once again being captured in water works and how many raises Venn will need before he stops getting killed.

Pants! I want pants.. I don't care if they have no stats at all. I have used a feat and enhancement points for my sorceror just so he will not be running in a dress. Yes my sorceror is powerful and can kill all the level 1 villagers in town, but that still doesn't stop the pain in his heart for running around in a dress. Yes he is an elf, but really everytime he wears a robe he is mistaken for a girl. I don't want to have to use a feat and enhancement points to look like a guy. He is one!

Famailairs! Ones that give bonuses. Animal compaions to run around. Or for those who like PVP I can see two nice options. An arena with team battles where players can bet on the winners. (Tallid ranking systems of wins and losts in order to tally the bets) If a player is caught cheating the arena league will take away all their money and some items. The coin lords don't take kindly to fxing matches.

The houses having orginized tournments. Carry a House standard and prove yourself to be their champion. Earn points and win prizes!

[BuilderD]

Sorry if anything I say is repetitive as I have not had the chance to read all of the posts, especially since my original post here was deleted. Anyways if anyone pays attention to other games you'd know that there a a few new breathtaking mmos that will hurt DDO, especially since Conan online uses the same combat style as DDO except they raised it a notch...or three

It would be really cool for something like, just as an example, in Conan where you can build your own city with a guild, vendors and such will move in and then you can declare war on an enemy town PC or NPC controlled. Now this is a stupid idea to add to DDO but just something really new and breathtaking to get DDO back n the spotlight

And randomized dungeons would be great for that. Random instances in the town would also be amazing. Imagine, you’re browsing a mag and seeing great graphics, great graphics, great graphics and then boom! A game where the dungeons aren’t the same thing every single time, the dangers are unpredictable and every once in a while you may see a dragon fly overhead or have to fight off a kobold force attacking stormreach from within the sewers.

The one thing DDO really shouldn’t change is the centralized city for everything. It would be nice to be able to be evil, go out to a temple out of town and pledge your service to an evil god, roaming the countryside for peasant followers. But it’s much better to be able to get a quest and reach the entrance in the same hour. If you really want a new area to wander around in, just as an example, the mark of death could make an appearance. “All of a sudden I was thrown back by a massive shockwave and when I stood up to look for the source I saw a massive stronghold being cradled by a large crater in the midst of stormreach. As I stood there in awe I noticed a shadowy drow take a few faltering steps out of the gates, and collapsing. After a bit of investigation I found that this drow mage was a bearer for the long lost death mark”. This could add a new bit of storyline, a new feat, a dragonmark no less, several quests, a new area and possibly a raid where you must go to a demigod’s plane of existence and kill him to stop the corruption spreading through stormreach.

Well that’s my own rambling two bits. I hope some of your amazing ideas are used by Turbine in the, hopefully near, future

[Dkmafia]

DDO is dying in such a textbook way though :( It's like they are afraid to think outside the MMO handbook even though they created a fresh and new MMO.

Think back Turbine. Think about when DDO launched what the #1 complaints were. None of them was lack of power. We complained melle's got that stupid +10 boost. That was about the only game breaking issue. We loved the game.

As you make us more powerful, you make the game easier and as a direct result people get mad when they are challenged. The focus of builds has changed dramatically so that "tanks" are no more. It's DPS thats dependent on casters with overly large spell pools.

Here is what I would do if I owned DDO. I would launch a marketing campaign geared towards my 7day trial and add a new server for those people. These new people would get to enjoy DDO the first time they way it was intended.

I have personally introduced this game to 100's of people. Only a tiny fraction stayed (I would guess about 1-2%) and it's mostly my fault. I twinked them and zerged them through the content. I can't help it. I don't have that new and fresh/friendly perspective anymore that made me love DDO. I still play because I am preparing for new content. And for one whole week I will be surprised and have fun.

No matter what your public says, they HAVE to be challenged. Right now they are not. I see terrible builds and playing habits make due on a daily basis. They are so used to being untouched they complain about everything that touches them.

I dont see the content becoming random, mabye a new quest could. But older content seems to be staying like it is. But try in some new content. And fro god sakes let new people have that fun perspective we hold onto. If you have to separate them and make a newbie server for the first 4/5 levels then do it.

So to summarize:

We need to be challenged.
We need random content.
You need to find a way to identify/separate your first time players to preserve that initial DDO experience.

[Snioc]

First, I enjoy playing DDO because I play it with a group of real life friends who I played DnD 20+ years ago when we were undergrads in college.

Second, when my friends and I played the gold box games, we dreamt of a time we could play together on-line and then we did in AOLNWN, DSO and now again in DDO.

Third, if we players want DnD Online done right, we need to let this game die so the next company can work with WotC and *hopefully* the next dev team will be led by someone with a better vision. (edit for clarification: not the current leader of the dev team, but the guy who lead the initial planning and development. I think this game is slowly getting better but the locked in design choices are hurting what could have been a much better game.)

Fourth, I'm still having fun playing this game, but that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed at times either...

Greetings....

Nothing to add to this subject, just a hello to a former AOLNWN and DSO player. So greetings...


In AOLNWN I was known as NightForge and a member of the Shadow Alliance.



Snioc

Shadow Alliance
Thelanis


www.shadowalliance.com

[Vi'Aed]

I dont see the content becoming random, mabye a new quest could. But older content seems to be staying like it is. But try in some new content. And fro god sakes let new people have that fun perspective we hold onto. If you have to separate them and make a newbie server for the first 4/5 levels then do it.


Hehe. I got my butt chewed off hi and lo for making a suggestion similar to this re: raising the level camp past 10. Have the higher level players segregated from the lower level players. Make it a different city or some such. Of course, that was way back when we had a much larger player base.

But in general I really like the idea of lower level characters being separated from the higher. You address a lot of twinking and power-player v casual player issues that way. Just my opinion though.

[Attomic]

I barely played PnP, but I did play D&D.

Just noticed this - sorry to quasi-necro...

Uh, PnP = D&D. PnP means "Pencil and Paper", i.e., the tabletop version as opposed to the online version. What did you actually mean here? :confused:

[Karlayla]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the DDO Forum so please be nice :)

From reading comments in the forums I believe one of the main issues with DDO is the boredom that sets in for high level players, and also the lack of RP for others.

I think DDO is an excellent game which I believe can only be made better. Here are a few of my ideas to maybe help DDO become the MMO of choice.

Expand the PvP aspect of the game. To do this:
Make sneaking, invisibility etc. work properly; that is, if you are sneaking and hidden you are not visible to others unless they are able to see/hear you (just like the Mobs).
Make more spells, like lightning bolt etc., work in public areas (of course for game playability some spells still need to be unavailable in public).
Put evil alignments into the game and make alignments able to shift due to your actions.
Give Rogues the pick-pocket ability (a PvP-only ability).
Make the harbour, marketplace and house areas of DDO PvP-able. Players would start in non-PvP mode and could use a switch to turn their PvP mode on.
NPC's would be in a permanent non-PvP mode.

If in PvP mode you can:
Attack others who are also in PvP mode unless they are in your party. If you attack someone whilst you are PvP you cannot turn off PvP for a period of time, say 5 minutes. This gives others a chance to retaliate.
Rogues can attempt to pick the pockets (treated as an attack) of other players whilst in PvP. If successful they can take something from the 'attacked' toon's backpack or 'x' amount of coins. On failure the attacked toon would be notified and the Rogue should be 'marked' to show their nefarious activity, thus allowing others to take matters into their own hands.

Expanding the idea further, toons, by their actions (constantly attacking others, stealing from others unsuccessfully), would end up with a bounty on their heads. Wanted toons would lose the right to non-PvP and be open to attack at any time unless they cleared their names, say by hefty fines.

Toons which have attacked others in self defence, of course, would be exempt from any penalties. Only those that initiate an attack would face penalties. Some penalty must also be taken on death, maybe the loss of an item in your possession or money to the victor.

If in non-PvP mode you are exempt from attack, but of course you can't attack anyone.

Effectively, what I'm saying is that if in PvP mode everyone who is also in PvP is treated the same way as a Mob. If not in PvP mode then things would be as they currently are.

Some may say that these ideas would result in anarchy and chaos on the servers - however, I believe the opposite would occur as guilds would create their own peace keepers, whilst others may create thieves guilds etc.; and don't forget, if you don't want to PvP and get involved in this side of the game then no-one is forcing you to.

Allowing PvP like this also allows such things as Guild Wars, and I'm sure others have ideas of how they could constructively use the PvP mode.

I know that these ideas may not bullet-proof but I thought that constructive ideas were better than the doom and nay-saying I see occasionally.

Happy Adventuring to all

[Marrra]

Rogues can attempt to pick the pockets (treated as an attack) of other players whilst in PvP. If successful they can take something from the 'attacked' toon's backpack or 'x' amount of coins.
Yes to coin (coin is easy enough to earn back) but a big NO to items. Losing your favourite item from your pack would only lead to trouble and griefing. Believe me, I know from experience on games such as NWN where this was implimented that people are happy (read: accepting) enough to lose a little cash but all hell breaks loose (in a BAD way) when a treasured item goes missing. Besides, from a realism point of view, it's easy to pick coins from a pocket - how easy is it to rifle through someone's pack to pull some armour?

[Rason]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the DDO Forum so please be nice :)

....

I know that these ideas may not bullet-proof but I thought that constructive ideas were better than the doom and nay-saying I see occasionally.

Happy Adventuring to all

I feel privileged that our thread is your first :) I don't agree on the PvP side of things but that is cause I'm not much of a PvPer, depending on the situation as I was in Guild Wars and loved the PvP matches there now and then.

But we are all to our own devices and they are good ideas nonetheless to those who enjoy it :) I do agree with Marrra to about losing items as it may start verbal fights and possible bannings yet the loss of coin isn't such a hard blow.

Again, thank you for posting and I hope you enjoy your stay :) We have many good ideas here and I would like to point people over to the Guide Program (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119833) as there are some good ideas there (and some odd ones too but you get that).

[Silverblade-T-E]

The game started to go wrong as soon as thd devs started playing fast and loose with the rules (enhancements), and playing to the MMORPG idiot crowd (Monty Haul and over powered characters).

-They have done a very good job on the missions.
-They did a PATHETIC job of Stormreach, it's so...sterile, bland :( It has lot of potential but, meh, the city doesn't grab me like it should.
-D&D is NOT about items, good grief...4th ed is specifically gonna ditch a lot of the way folk get more and more loot and are defined by loot, hurray! :) Getting cool items is fun in D&D, but it's been ridiculous in DDO. I wanted to see rods, and all the weird, fun things, not just another "vorpal +12 hackmaster", jeesh ;)
-Devs broke core rules of D&D by messing with loot and enhancements, leading to the arms race that ripped the guts out of the game, as I predicted at the START of the game. This leads to disatisfaction from D&D players. To hell with "WoW lewt kiddies", the core player base of THIS game is/was D&D players,a nd they voted with their feet.

Yes, more RP would be awesome, unsure of ways to implmement it in game universally though, but it is needed.

:)

[Rason]

I think the enhancement system wasn't such a bad move although it is a big step away from D&D right now. Although from what I have read about D&D 4.0, the enhancements are sorta like what they have in mind for being able to enhance racial abilities, etc.

Oh, and I am back now. PC is on order and should have it just after the weekend. I'm going from bottom-of-the-barrel PC to very high settings.

Now, I thought it was time to bring this back to life since I've noticed we have more newcomers of late who might have some input into the realm of "How to make a fun game without nerfing or dragging it away from the D&D experience"

[RobDBlackwolf]

To add my few copper:

For me, roleplaying is interaction. Hunting together is fine and dandy, but sitting in the tavern after the hunt is better. That's one thing I miss: You can't sit down in chairs. I think it would help if people could sit around a table in a tavern and roleplay their characters winding down after a hunt or quest.

About the Chat. I am not a fan of the chat windows. In the other MMO's I played so far you also saw the words over the character who spoke, that way you knew who was talking. In DDO you see the name in the chat window and have to figure out who spoke... Was that character actually near you?

And last but not least: I'm a roleplayer and I don't want to wear my armor all the time. Granted it's just a light chainshirt, but the gambeson my character has to wear under it is getting a bit stinky and itchy with the time.
I would love to see some non-armor outfits. And cloaks.

Of course, I might be a bit spoiled because I also play UO. Which is, in my opinion, the best MMO for fantasy roleplaying.

[KiwiPhil889]

..,that would help i think. precisely because DDO is instanced, i would have thought that adding in an "evil aligned" instance or area wouldn't be too hard. Following on from that, conflict areas/instances would add another dimension. Where good vs evil could go about their lives doing whatever it was that they do.

As for LoTRO?? i liked the game story,but hated the combat system. After DDO's combat?? LoTRO seemed very slow?laboured? rigid?. Crafting was nice but not a huge thing,just a point of difference.

Consider Evil,and instances that could be alignment sensitive??

...just an idea.