Barb Vs. 2h Ftr

[NightbirdX]

I posted this in the Fighter Forums also, but being a fighter myself, I know how jaded towards other damage dealers we can be, so I decided to get the other side of the coin from the Barbs :P Ty in advance for your input.

I am just finishing up my Dwarven Tactical Fighter. Loads of fun to play. But, along the way I decided I wanted a Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian also. It looks insanely fun to swing a huge piece of metal and cut things in twain. I like the looks of a Barbarian. Pure hate and discontent unleashed upon the lands, and the Two Handed Fighter, master of offensive feats. I have been hearing that in Pure Numbers alone a Barb will own anyone. I have never played a barby so don't really know the mechanics of it. Is it pure pwnage from the extra Str? Does a 2h Ftr even have a chance vs the Barb? Do the added offensive feats make up for the lower Str?

Any input would be appreciated and if someone could show some numbers I'd appreciate that too. Not a good numbers person myself. /cheers

[EinarMal]

Well in terms of strength a maxed out human fighter could hit 18 + 3 Levels +4 Enhancements +3 Tome + 6 Item = 34 (32 more likely).

Now consider grtr weapon spec adds +4 to damage or the equivalent of 8 more strength bringing the "effective" strength of the fighter to around 40 (which is pretty close to the raging Barb).

The difference really is critical rage II which increases the threat range of a weapon by +2. That is what the fighter cannot match. In general the Barb will also have more hit points, DR boost, and better will saves as well.

[tihocan]

Barb will do better (from a pure DPS point-of-view) mostly due to the higher strength while raged, the higher con, and critical rage enhancements. Since your AC will probably be low without a shield, DR also helps.
Looks like I just repeated the above post :D

[Renegade66]

Fighters are obsolete at the moment.

[Casta]

I have a few fighters, none can come anywhere near my barbs damage, he can hit for as much as a 1 hand fighter can crit. I don't have a pure damage two handed fighter but with half as many crits i can't see one getting more damage then me.

[ErgonomicCat]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....

[Shade]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....

Or you could go rogue4/bard6/barb4.

[Strakeln]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....Pretty sure the highest possible str in the game comes from a barb12/ftr2. :D

[PurdueDave]

I have a few fighters, none can come anywhere near my barbs damage, he can hit for as much as a 1 hand fighter can crit. I don't have a pure damage two handed fighter but with half as many crits i can't see one getting more damage then me.

Yeah. The crit difference is the killer.

[Casta]

Pretty sure the highest possible str in the game comes from a barb12/ftr2. :D

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.

[Slayer918]

18 base +6 item +3 levels +3 fighter enhancement +2 tome = 32 str +2 rage potion +4 madstone boots means maximum of 38 str... now GWS IS NOT EQUAL TO +8 STR WHEN THF BECAUSE OF x1.5... thats a mistake I see a lot of people make... so fighters have the equivelent of 44 str (+6 equivelent from GWS)... compared to a barb 18 base +6 item +3 level +2 tome +10 rage +2 rage potion +4 madstone rage = 45 so if your human then u could reach 46 str on a barb w/ only a +2 tome... however while it may look like you could then reach 46 equivelent on a human w/ a +3 tome... you actually cant then ur really sitting halfway between 44 and 46 (complicated I know but trust me it works out...)... so then Barbs get critical rage 2... makes a difference it DPS... pretty big 1 actually especially using greataxes...

I would say go 12/2 fighter/barb... for 3 min per rest you can actually hit the equivelent of 48 str... if your dwarf ur looking at probably 500-550 hp... now some barbs can beat that... not all can tho... saves... go to the barb... but a dwarf fighter can still get 20+ will save pretty easily... feats to spare on iron will... If your a twich player you can pick up cleave and great cleave but I would make THF line/Power attack/toughness/GWS/GWF/iron will more of a priority...

2 levels of barb also gets you access to barb power attack 1 which means ur only +4 damage behind the barb instead of +6... you wont miss w/ this guy unless ur debuffed and what not... (not saying barbs do just saying there is no reason not to take PA enhancement because its basicly +2 free damage)

A barb will be better... but then who doesn't have a barb nowadays? lol

When fighters can get there hands on l33t gear they can hit pretty ****ing hard... just not quite as hard as barbs...

[Strakeln]

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.Agreed, but there are more advantages to 2 levels of fighter than just one point of strength. 2 feats; full plate and tower shield proficiency; item defense; and melee alacrity enhancement, for example. Not to mention that crit rage 2 will still be there if Turbine ever gets past level 14 :p

I will admit that I may have hosed myself for level 20, it really depends on what barbarian enhancements are available at that time.

[Khurse]

Agreed, but there are more advantages to 2 levels of fighter than just one point of strength. 2 feats; full plate
<snip>


CAn Barabarians use all their abilities if they're wearing heavy armour?

[Strakeln]

CAn Barabarians use all their abilities if they're wearing heavy armour?Yep.

I think at one time there were calls to make a change similar to the evasion change, but I didn't see anything at d20srd.org that talked about losing bonuses due to heavy armor.

[Casta]

1barb 18 base +6 item +3 level +2 tome +10 rage +2 rage potion +4 madstone rage = 45


Barb rage and the madstone rage clicky don't stack, you cant use one while your in the other iv tried so your only at 43.

[Strakeln]

Barb rage and the madstone rage clicky don't stack, you cant use one while your in the other iv tried so your only at 43.Incorrect. They do stack. You just need to do it in a different order: madstone clickie rage, then barbarian rage.

[Strakeln]

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.Well, I found something interesting. The 1st melee alacrity boost puts a barb12/ftr2 at a higher DPS rate than a barbarian 14 with the +2 to crit threat range.

Here's the data and graph from the damage calculator: link (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=1&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=100&1phd=2d6&1phed=0&1phth=5&1phthreat=13-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=46&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=0&2label=2&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=115&2phd=2d6&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=14-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=46&2dex=10&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50). Note that I left both barbarians as equal except for the crit range and swing rate (so I did not take into consideration the extra point of str). Also note that the alacrity enhancement is a boost, so this argument only concerns max DPS, not max sustainable DPS.

What this means is that for periods of time, a barb12/ftr2 will be able to out-DPS a full barbarian, despite the smaller crit range.

[Casta]

Incorrect. They do stack. You just need to do it in a different order: madstone clickie rage, then barbarian rage.

Ok but its only 2 min per shrine so standing str is around 36 and 44 max.

[Shade]

What this means is that for periods of time, a barb12/ftr2 will be able to out-DPS a full barbarian, despite the smaller crit range.

No it doesn't. It means your graph is wrong. You cannot begin to properly calculate the difference in crit range and speed thru a simple graph, DDO is far more complex then that.

Your graph says the characters max crit is 100, and he hits 100 times in a minuit.. Both highly innacurate.

[Strakeln]

No it doesn't. It means your graph is wrong. You cannot begin to properly calculate the difference in crit range and speed thru a simple graph, DDO is far more complex then that.

Your graph says the characters max crit is 100, and he hits 100 times in a minuit.. Both highly innacurate.I think you should look a little more carefully at what we're comparing here. You can change the number of swings per minute to whatever you would like, so long as #2 is 15% more than #1... but guess what? While the curves will shift up or down, their position in relation to one another will remain the same. Same goes for the crit and non-crit damage, except that they need to remain equal to each other. Keep in mind that this is comparing the damage output of two very similar builds, the main point of the comparison being a 15% boost to attack speed vs a 5% boost to crit range.

Remember that we are talking about Damage Per Second, not damage per swing. The graph does not indicate a max crit anywhere in the data. It does indicate an average, non-power attack crit value (102).

Something I did think about though, if we're talking about boosts, I should give the straight barbarian their damage boost... since the barb12/fighter2 would not be able to use that boost at the same time as the alacrity boost.

The graph points out an additional side effect I did not think of. You'll note that the barb12/fighter2 (#2) DPS drops for higher AC mobs earlier than the straight barbarian. At first this doesn't make sense... the two have the same to-hit bonus. But if you think about it, it makes perfect sense - since #2 is swinging more often, he will roll lower than the mob's AC more often.

You should take a closer look at what that graph shows, and consider the purpose of the comparison. As far as DDO being "far more complex" than a bunch of crunched numbers resulting in a graph, you should note that DDO is nothing but that. As such, its behavior over time is predictable down to every last point of damage.

[Strakeln]

Ok but its only 2 min per shrine so standing str is around 36 and 44 max.Really depends on your definition of standing strength. Running around town? Heading into battle? My barb heads into battle at 40 str minimum (17 base + 3 lvl + 1 ftr enh + 6 item + 6 rage + 4 power rage + 1 tome + 2 rage spell = 40).

As far as max strength, are you talking max possible strength in the game? Because it's not 44. Leaving out alchemical bonuses, I think the highest possible is a 48, with a human barb 12/fighter 2:

18 base
6 item
6 rage
4 power rage
3 tome
3 level
2 rage
2 madstone clickie
2 madstone boot on-hit
1 fighter str enhancement
1 human versatility
= 48

There might be some other combination that allows for a higher strength, but I can't think of it now.

[nbhs275]

WF pally can make an exceptional THF.

Str hits 40

18 base
3 level
3 tome
6 item
2 rage
4 madstone
4 bladesworn
__________
40

then 3 damage from DF, 4 from bladesworn, then 16 from PA.

Easily 2d6+42 standing, with 2d6+51 Buffed. Nevermind the advantage of being able to have a 45+ AC while doing this.

One other thing i can give you is this. DO NOT, take the THF feats. The splash damage is a decent increase to dps, but only effect those types of attacks. Which means whenever you throw on a shield, you lose the benefit. I find Cleave and Great Cleave enhance DPS alot more, giving area damage. Plus it works with one handers.

[Strakeln]

One other thing i can give you is this. DO NOT, take the THF feats. The splash damage is a decent increase to dps, but only effect those types of attacks. Which means whenever you throw on a shield, you lose the benefit. I find Cleave and Great Cleave enhance DPS alot more, giving area damage. Plus it works with one handers.I never tried out the THF feats, but I certainly love my cleave and great cleave! Great for agro management as well as damage.

[Renegade66]

Really depends on your definition of standing strength. Running around town? Heading into battle? My barb heads into battle at 40 str minimum (17 base + 3 lvl + 1 ftr enh + 6 item + 6 rage + 4 power rage + 1 tome + 2 rage spell = 40).

As far as max strength, are you talking max possible strength in the game? Because it's not 44. Leaving out alchemical bonuses, I think the highest possible is a 48, with a human barb 12/fighter 2:

18 base
6 item
6 rage
4 power rage
3 tome
3 level
2 rage
2 madstone clickie
2 madstone boot on-hit
1 fighter str enhancement
1 human versatility
= 48

There might be some other combination that allows for a higher strength, but I can't think of it now.

Forgot the +3 STR Potion. 51 Max STR for your Barb/Ftr. 50 Max STR if you choose not to gimp your Barbarian with levels of fighter and go straight barbarian.

[Strakeln]

Forgot the +3 STR Potion. 51 Max STR for your Barb/Ftr. 50 Max STR if you choose not to gimp your Barbarian with levels of fighter and go straight barbarian.I didn't forget it (note how I said "leaving out alchemical bonuses"). And I'd find it hard for you to justify barb12/ftr2 as gimped (see discussion above... there are huge benefits to 2 levels of fighter). Talking about barb18/ftr2, you might have a reasonable stance.

[Stealthbr]

Can someone tell me some advantages of a pure 2handed fighter over a pure barbarian or am I going to have to delete my 2H fighter and start a barbarian?

[NightbirdX]

Lol thats pretty much why I started this thread, to find out the advantages to both. It doesn't seem that there are very many advantages to a 2h Figther though. The only ones I can really think of are with all the feats that you can get as a fighter, you can specialize in different areas, such as a dwarven tactics fighter specializing in stunning, tripping, etc. From what I have gathered, the offensive feats a Fighter gets, won't put you over a Barb's DPS, so I was trying to think what feats would be worth taking that would make you want to go 2h Ftr vs going Barb. Not really coming up with any. I guess you could use the extra feats to make yourself more defensive also for turtle situations, but meh seems like I am stretching it thin just to say that a 2h Ftr is just as good as a Barb.

Don't get me wrong, I like 2h Fighters. I have a good friend that has a great 2h Ftr build that can stand tall with the best of them and still has great AC to stay alive, but in terms of raw unbridled power, its looking like the Barb will win.

[Shade]

you should note that DDO is nothing but that. As such, its behavior over time is predictable down to every last point of damage.

Your a nerd.

You might see DDO as a set of numbers and calculations, but I don't.

Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.

As such, the biggest thing that is plain wrong with the conclusion based on a linear formula is that DDO is not linear.

The number of swings I make in 1 minuits is never the same, it constantly changes based on many factors. Having a straight 15% boost is great, but its not a straight 15% more dps boost, not nearly. I have that exact boost on my fighter and my rogue and I know how it works and how it doesnt work. I know my bab9 rogue swings faster then my bab14 fighter, and as such works allot better for him.

Point is put the multiclass and pure guy in the same quest and I gaurentee no one will say the multiclass guy is better dps. Constant increase to crits, which often kill mobs in 1-3 hits provides far more overall boost to killrate then a limited 20 second boost. The boost does give the higher DPS in some cases, but to just say it always does, its flawed logic.

[nbhs275]

I think the fighter would have the advantage of being able to fit both the THF line and power attack, cleave, great cleave. Plus, being able to bring your AC much higher while 2handing has the advantage of not needing a wet nurse in non-gianthold quests.

I will mock up a build and post it in the fighter forums.

[Strakeln]

Your a nerd.Takes one to know one! :p


Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand."IT expert" explains your viewpoint a bit, I think. I'm a computer scientist, and as such, I don't see it the same way as you. To me, computers are an exact science, and all factors in software are calcuable. After all, it's the programmer who programmed it to act that way... the software didn't write itself. Bugs in software are shortcomings of the programming process used, not quirks that happen just because it is software.


As such, the biggest thing that is plain wrong with the conclusion based on a linear formula is that DDO is not linear. For this comparison, it is. Obviously enough, it is a hypothetical situation, where both characters are fighting the exact same mob, using the exact same equipment, etc. But you seem to be thinking I'm interpreting this as a constant, which I'm not. The graph shows performance over time. Consider it to be something akin to the graph created over 4 years of swinging, instead of running around in one instance.


The number of swings I make in 1 minuits is never the same, it constantly changes based on many factors. Having a straight 15% boost is great, but its not a straight 15% more dps boost, not nearly. I have that exact boost on my fighter and my rogue and I know how it works and how it doesnt work. I know my bab9 rogue swings faster then my bab14 fighter, and as such works allot better for him.Sure, I'll admit that it may not be a 15% boost. Change the number to whatever you feel like, the graph will probably show the same thing for anything over 10%.


Point is put the multiclass and pure guy in the same quest and I gaurentee no one will say the multiclass guy is better dps. Pfft. You know as well as I do it depends waaay more on the equipment and skill of the player behind the character than whether or not there is a splash of multiclass.


Constant increase to crits, which often kill mobs in 1-3 hits provides far more overall boost to killrate then a limited 20 second boost. The boost does give the higher DPS in some cases, but to just say it always does, its flawed logic.Read back over my posts. Did I say that it always applies? No. In fact, here is what I said, in the very same post where I put the link to the graph: "Also note that the alacrity enhancement is a boost, so this argument only concerns max DPS, not max sustainable DPS."

Stop trying to say that the graph (incorrectly) shows more than what it does. I'll try to clarify it again for you: The graph shows that, all other things being equal, a 15% attack speed boost will out-DPS a 5% increase crit range when using the sword of shadows. It does not say anything more than that.

[Stealthbr]

I guess my 2H Fighter will probably have better saves, better AC (not very decent though), cleave and great cleave in the near future and extra feat slots while the barbarian will be doing more dps, 10% barbarian speed, and some DR.

[mgoldb2]

I guess my 2H Fighter will probably have better saves, better AC (not very decent though), cleave and great cleave in the near future and extra feat slots while the barbarian will be doing more dps, 10% barbarian speed, and some DR.

Explain to me how a 2H fighter would have better saves. They on exact same progression as barbarians base wise. Barbarians get enhancements to increase will save while rage which is most of the time. Improve uncanny dodge for running thought traps etc when needed. Fort save will be higher on a barb due to huge con bonus when raging.

The only advantage a fighter might have is to be able to spend some feats on saves but they still properly fall behind a barb in saves.

[Stealthbr]

How much will save do barbarians get with rage? Also indomitable will only works against enchantments. I see what you mean with the fortitude though. Also, what about the spells that require a reflex save? You wont have improved uncanny dodge all the time and you can always get hit by surprise. Your not a rogue so you cant spot a trap also. Also, the barbarian can use little action points on the will save enhancement because they have little points to spend after getting all the main barbarian enhancements.

[mgoldb2]

How much will save do barbarians get with rage? Also indomitable will only works against enchantments. I see what you mean with the fortitude though. Also, what about the spells that require a reflex save? You wont have improved uncanny dodge all the time and you can always get hit by surprise. Your not a rogue so you cant spot a trap also. Also, the barbarian can use little action points on the will save enhancement because they have little points to spend after getting all the main barbarian enhancements.

Indomitable will is +4 and correct it only enchantments but can you name one will save check you ever made that was not an enchantment. I have tested the +4 even applies to mind blast from flayers. Which leave me not able to thing of anything it don’t apply too.

What do fighters get that could even match the +4 bonus?

Traps I don’t see am still getting a +4 reflex save bonus, barbarians get trap sense. At level 14 it +4 (will go up too +5 at level 15)

Spells am even with a fighter I suppose (when not using uncanny) but not seeing why a fighter would have more then me.

Now explain to me what bonus a fighter get that allow him to have higher saves or even keep up.

[Stealthbr]

Finger of death, PK, and disintegrate i believe are all spell checks. What about Chain lightning, fireball, cone of cold, earthgrab etc.? Those are all reflex saves that you really cant rely on improved uncanny dodge because monsters can use it all the time and you really dont know when they will use it. Does the barbarian get +2 will save with rage at lvl 14 w/o enhancements? My fighter has spare feat slots and action points to take iron will and luck of heroes which is +3 and +3 (not counting the +2 size bonus thing) from the dwarven enhancements while the barbarian has a small amount of spare points.

[Shade]

Yea indomitable will rocks. Only spell I know it doesn't work vs is bestow curse. Which is un-important as you can fix that with a quick potion.

Barbarians can easily aford the adittional will rage bonuses too, but there unneassary with indomitable will. Personally I maxxed dwarven spell resist instead.. So I get +5 from that, +3 from rage, +4 from indomitable will.

Then for reflex, you should consider that most barbarians go for more dex then fighters for obvious reasons. (medium armor vs heavy, ftrs have less skill points and often want combat exp so they go for INT over Dex)
Then barbarians get +6 reflex, for 2minuits per shrine with no cooldown - it can add up to over 80% of your important reflex saves if you time it well.

Then fort.. +6 con greater rage, and another +2 hearty rage.. Thats 8 con over a fighter, or 4 fort save. Often another +1 for rage potions, which many fighter avoid in favor of more AC.

[bandyman1]

Finger of death, PK, and disintegrate i believe are all spell checks. What about Chain lightning, fireball, cone of cold, earthgrab etc.? Those are all reflex saves that you really cant rely on improved uncanny dodge because monsters can use it all the time and you really dont know when they will use it. Does the barbarian get +2 will save with rage at lvl 14 w/o enhancements? My fighter has spare feat slots and action points to take iron will and luck of heroes which is +3 and +3 (not counting the +2 size bonus thing) from the dwarven enhancements while the barbarian has a small amount of spare points.

FoD, Pk, and Disentegrate are all fort saves ( PK you get a will, then a fort ), and it's already established the barb has higher Con. What about the reflex saves? They are the same base as your fighter without uncanny dodge. So again, where do you come up with better saves?

[Stealthbr]

Hmmm well you folks just convinced me to change my character. Let the re-rolling begin! Guess Grandpa Joe is no longer a fighter and is now a barbarian! I wish there was still the name Raged Joe avaible though =*(.

[nbhs275]

I still feel that DPS is very mixed in this game. Speed factors in, Actual damage matters, To hit, crit range and multiplier, all play a part in damage output. But the one alot of people forget is survivablity. If your AC is 12 and you don't have perm-displace your gunna be chugging potions more then attacking.

Now a barbarian does the extreme damage, but has the need for a wetnurse more often then not. A fighter can get DPS nearly as good (70-90% depend on builds) with an AC of 35-40ish, enough to prevent a good amount of damage.

BUT, as i said else where, a well built offensive paladin can outdo both these classes overall.

[Katianara]

Your a nerd.


You're. You're also posting on a D&D forum about if a Fighter outdamages a Barbarian, so I'm fairly certain you're not jet-setting the swingers circuit right now IT EXPERT



You might see DDO as a set of numbers and calculations, but I don't.


Which is too bad, because the only thing that matters when figuring out a theoretical maximum on DPS is by using methods such as Thott's graph. If you spent half the time you did posting on these forums as you did thinking about the theory behind it you'd get a lot farther.



Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.


AN IT EXPERT.

And you've completed the trifecta

[Riorik]

You guys do realize - all these calculations aren't really an IT problem OR something for a computer scientist. It's all really algebra and statistics.

In my opinion, introducing new topics to the discussion as new variables when they need to be kept as constants to provide any validity to the controlled test conditions, is a fallacious argument...not intended to really address the comparison, but to propose a whole new problem.

While I agree that there are a significant number of factors that could affect any given encounter between two players with these proposed builds, at some point you have to find a way to simplify the test or you'll never get it done. In my opinion, considering the similarity of these builds -- and an assumption of precisely equal player skill (more than that, we need to assume precisely the same responses) - what we're left looking at is a very concentrated distribution of results - swing by swing.

Nax

[bandyman1]

I still feel that DPS is very mixed in this game. Speed factors in, Actual damage matters, To hit, crit range and multiplier, all play a part in damage output. But the one alot of people forget is survivablity. If your AC is 12 and you don't have perm-displace your gunna be chugging potions more then attacking.

Now a barbarian does the extreme damage, but has the need for a wetnurse more often then not. A fighter can get DPS nearly as good (70-90% depend on builds) with an AC of 35-40ish, enough to prevent a good amount of damage.

BUT, as i said else where, a well built offensive paladin can outdo both these classes overall.


See, this is were your calculations go kapoot. 40 AC means zilch in the end-game elite. That is why barbs went to wearing robes. You have a 40 AC and the mob has +40 to-hit. Guess what happens? The barb has better saves and far more HPs. Were is this increased survivability?

Here's a simple breakdown for a TWFer

10 base
13 +5 MFP
4 pro. item ( far more common than a +5 )
3 DEX
30 base AC

Now the only thing a fighter can add to that, that a barb cannot, is +3 Armor mastery, possibly chaosguarde ( a rare drop ) and I'll give you the dodge feat too ( as fighter's have a lot of feats and barbs don't ). So, that's a 36 AC. Sure, it increases your chances to not get hit, but the barb still has more hit points, better saves, and better DR, and is still putting out better DPS.

You can't argue Combat expertise or going sword and board, as that will kill the DPS you have, which is already behind the barbarian.

Here's the kicker. In order to matain that 70-90% of the DPS of the barb ( your figures, not mine. ) you are using rage effects. So, that AC drops to the point of uselessness even on normal in the end game content. The barbs does too, but again the barb has better HPs, better saves, and better DR.

Not to mention the barb can hit uncanny dodge for a +6 boost when needed that doesn't effect his DPS at all.

[Grenfell]

(cross-posted to Fighter forums) When this thread is not descending into insults, there's some useful info all around. Getting back on track...

My take on it is that the two are different but fairly equal.

Get the easy stuff out of the way: Vs. Undead, Constructs, and anything that is crit-immune, the Barbarian advantage goes away as compared to a dedicated DPS THF. (Comparing some Tank-build Fighter to a raging Barbarian is pointless in the extreme).

Here's the base:

32 Str for the Fighter vs. 40 Str (raged) for the Barb.

Both can use Rage potions, both can use Madstone, etc. so leave those out for the time being.

Now, take GWS into account: +4, which is equal to +8 Str. Suddenly, we're at 40 Str vs. 40 Str functionally speaking (although the Barb does have a +2 to hit advantage, taking GWF into account). That is zero difference in plain-vanilla damage output.

But, the THF fighter can have nearly every DPS-oriented feat. For instance, my THF fighter has Greater THF and Cleave and Great Cleave. Those types of things are impossible to figure out numerically. But they do count, and they do matter.

If a Barb has GTHF, then he's missing Cleave/Great Cleave -- those DO add DPS, but how much and how often? Who can say. And vice versa. If a Barb has Cleave/Great Cleave, then he's missing GTHF -- and that adds significantly to glancing blows damage. But how much and how often? Impossible to predict.

But at base, without taking crits into account (as you would in an undead quest), we're really talking about +2 to hit for the raged Barb vs. the Fighter. In that scenario, I don't think it can be argued that the Fighter wins, although by the slightest of margins. You can easily check this out in Delera's or in WizKing by taking a THF DPS build and a Barbarian and giving them both equal weapons -- say a +5 Greataxe, no specials (of course, you have to assume equal player skill).

That's all fine and good, but hey, the Barb DOES have Critical Rage II. Now, of course, we have to take crits into account.

Crits vs. Barb Crits (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Crits&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12&1phed=0&1phth=&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barb+Crits&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12&2phed=0&2phth=&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=0&2ohth=0&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2sneakpct=0&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=0&report=on&minac=20&maxac=60)

According to that calculation (and I kept it as simple as possible by using non-magic weapons, etc.), the Barb has an enormous advantage thanks to the higher crit range on mobs that can be critted at all. But notice, the advantage decreases as the mob AC goes up.

At AC 20, there's almost a 20 hp per second difference between the two. At AC 60, there's no difference whatsoever (presumably, at some AC levels, it takes a 20 to hit and 20 to confirm, so an expanded crit range means squat if you still need to roll back to back 20's to land a crit). At AC 45, the difference is about 10 hp/sec.

Now, throw in Cleave/Great Cleave (or conversely, GTHF glancing blows) into the equation. Do they make up 20hp/sec difference? Hard to say -- I doubt the gap goes away entirely, but certainly the gap will narrow. Maybe the true difference isn't 10hp/sec but more like 5hp/sec? Maybe it's 2hp/sec? Maybe the Fighter actually has the advantage? At higher AC levels, which is what we expect to find at the endgame, is the gap 10hp/sec or is it closer to 2hp/sec? Is it no gap at all? Or does the Fighter actually have the upper hand? It's really impossible to say.

None of this takes any of the other ancillary things into account -- AC, saves, hp, etc. etc. It doesn't take Fighter Haste boost into account, which certainly increases damage output. It doesn't take the effect of specialty weapons like vorpals with Crit Enhancements, or Flanking bonuses, or any such thing into account.

But looking at just the damage output with the simplest assumptions, I think the gap is not as wide as people might think. Barbarians should still come out on top (if raged) but not by this enormous margin people think.

/gren

[mgoldb2]

Now, take GWS into account: +4, which is equal to +8 Str. Suddenly, we're at 40 Str vs. 40 Str functionally speaking (although the Barb does have a +2 to hit advantage, taking GWF into account). That is zero difference in plain-vanilla damage output.

I just want to correct this because way too many been saying this in regard too 2hf builds. This is only true in one handed build. In a 2 handed build 8 str = 6 damage. GWS remains at 4 damage.

It a +2 damage and to hit advantage.



At AC 20, there's almost a 20 hp per second difference between the two. At AC 60, there's no difference whatsoever (presumably, at some AC levels, it takes a 20 to hit and 20 to confirm, so an expanded crit range means squat if you still need to roll back to back 20's to land a crit). At AC 45, the difference is about 10 hp/sec.

This is true but I don’t recall fighting anything with 60+ ac except in the pvp arena. Another thing is that a sliding scale. Bards buff or other way to boost your too hit the scale shift to the right into ranges of ac we don’t usually see.


But looking at just the damage output with the simplest assumptions, I think the gap is not as wide as people might think. Barbarians should still come out on top (if raged) but not by this enormous margin people think.

Just talking damage on things that can’t be crited I can agree with the right build the dps not a huge margin. I do thing there other benefits to being barbarians such as speed as only one of many examples that make them a better choice for me personally.

[Mad_Bombardier]

(Crits vs. Barb Crits (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Crits&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12&1phed=0&1phth=&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barb+Crits&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12&2phed=0&2phth=&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=0&2ohth=0&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2sneakpct=0&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=0&report=on&minac=20&maxac=60)

According to that calculation (and I kept it as simple as possible by using non-magic weapons, etc.), the Barb has an enormous advantage thanks to the higher crit range on mobs that can be critted at all. But notice, the advantage decreases as the mob AC goes up.Not sure why your Barb is 15-20 crit range when the Fighter is only 19-20. Crit Rage II only adds 2 lowering your Barb Crit numbers. And Thott's doesn't include Barb Power Attack enhancement, which raises it back up a bit (although, you can fudge it by checking other boxes for bonuses). And the point where damage output equalizes is 50+ AC, which really only applies to bosses. And that equalization point can again be pushed even higher with Greater Heroism, +5 weapon, etc. not included in your simplified example.

[Grenfell]

Not sure why your Barb is 15-20 crit range when the Fighter is only 19-20. Crit Rage II only adds 2 lowering your Barb Crit numbers. And Thott's doesn't include Barb Power Attack enhancement, which raises it back up a bit (although, you can fudge it by checking other boxes for bonuses). And the point where damage output equalizes is 50+ AC, which really only applies to bosses. And that equalization point can again be pushed even higher with Greater Heroism, +5 weapon, etc. not included in your simplified example.

Ahh, Thott's doesn't have Crit Rage... so I lowered the base crit on the axe, which got doubled. Let me try to fix that. A Greataxe will crit on a 17 for a Barb, right? So I'll just make it 19-20 crit range.

I'll also add in some additional measures, which all it does is shift the range to the right. The point, nonetheless, is that there is SOME AC at which both the Fighter and the Barb will only crit on back-to-back 20's.

Edited Fighter vs. Barb Chart (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Fighter&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12+%2B5&1phed=0&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barbarian&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12+%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=20&maxac=70)

Still seems to be about a 15hp/sec gap between Barb and Fighter at around AC 45. Very significant, but not 150hp/sec gap either. Now throw in the "uncalculable" DPS from the fighting feats, such as Cleave, and who knows where that goes?

Again, there IS a gap; but as Mad points out, it's only a consistent +2 to hit and +2 to damage. Yeah, you can mess with PA enhancements, do more stuff to manipulate the DPS numbers, but what I get from all this research is this: Barbarians have an advantage. That advantage is not overwhelming. It makes a difference, but just from a DPS standpoint, the gap is not as huge as some might think.

This is not to say Barbarians don't have other advantages, nor to say Fighters don't have advantages. Simply that they're different, but not that far from each other in DPS.

/gren

[Mad_Bombardier]

This is not to say Barbarians don't have other advantages, nor to say Fighters don't have advantages. Simply that they're different, but not that far from each other in DPS.Numerically, not that different. But, you're looking at a 33% or more DPS difference. Which is to say that a 2H Fighter has at best only 75% the DPS of a Barb.

P.S. Check this chart (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Fighter&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12+%2B5&1phed=0&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barbarian&2bab=12&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12+%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phspec=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=30&maxac=60) and compare the yellow to blue lines. I attempted to simulate Barb Power Attack II -2 to-hit/+4 dmg by subtracting 2 from Barb BAB and adding both Weapon Specializations.

[A_Sheep]

Since people are using the Thott calculator, I'd like to take this time to point out that the Power Attack feature is broken. It does not multiply power attack damage on crits as it should. This can be worked around by simply not using the power attack feature and just subtracting from to-hit and adding to base damage.

Done with +5 Greataxes:
Attack feature vs. manual. (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Power+Attack+Feature&1bab=%2B14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12%2B5&1phed=0&1phth=%2B5&1phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=40&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Manually+Added&2bab=%2B14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12%2B5%2B10&2phed=&2phth=0&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50 )

Hope the link works!

[Grenfell]

Numerically, not that different. But, you're looking at a 33% or more DPS difference. Which is to say that a 2H Fighter has at best only 75% the DPS of a Barb.

P.S. Check this chart (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Fighter&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12+%2B5&1phed=0&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barbarian&2bab=12&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12+%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phspec=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=30&maxac=60) and compare the yellow to blue lines. I attempted to simulate Barb Power Attack II -2 to-hit/+4 dmg by subtracting 2 from Barb BAB and adding both Weapon Specializations.

No, my point is that it seems as if Fighter is 75% of a Barb, but once you take the "incalculable" damage into account, the gap is narrower than that.

There's surely a gap, but maybe (totally guessing) it's more like 90% of Barb DPS. That's the part we can't figure.

/gren

[Shade]

Since people are using the Thott calculator, I'd like to take this time to point out that the Power Attack feature is broken. !

Hah, i knew in my gut that nerd calc was busted and wrong. I didn't even look at it and I know its wrong.

And yea, GWS does not equal +8 str. Then theres power attack enhancements...

32 str vs 40 str = Barbarians rock and leave fighters in the dust as they are freakin +13 damage per hit ahead.
Want me to give you the breakdown on that? No. Just accept that its right, I know it in my gut, hell its probably more then that depending on how rounding is calculated.
Sorry but haste boost does not add up to 13 dmg per hit, so even vs crit imune stuff, fighters can go hide behind there shields where they belong.

Like I said, no one can properly and accuratley take into account the huge number of factors that play into DPS, so stop even trying and just accept barbarians are the best and multiclassing is a bad idea.

[Shade]

Then consider the future too..

Feats vs more power rage:

Once were lvl40 and have 100 strength with 12 types of rage going that last 2 hours - fighters will have 75 strength and epic weapon spec x10 or whatever, despite those numbers evenining out the base numbers barbarians will still always come out on top.

Because as you go up the scale, the 50% bonus dmg from str for two handed wins, and feats which arent granted that bonus lose.

Tho at that point our rage will be so power that any creature that comes near will have to make a will save or run away in feat.. And if we hit them they will just die with no damage roll, just instant death from the shock of our power (fortitude save on crits or death) And will be so scary and godlike when we intimidate the targets around will get paralyzed and take -10 to there saves! Our sprint boost will be +2000% so we will basicly be able to teleport around at will. Our will rage save bonus will be like +20, so +50 will save, fort probably around +90. Epic two handed fighting will let us glancing blow for 80% dmg of regular, and do all special effects on every single swing of our10 attack combo chain.. heh.

[NightbirdX]

One thing a Ftr has over a Barbarian, is that he will be able to multi class with paladin and use his Cha towards his saves which can tip the balance in the save department quite a bit. He can also get the AC bonus from the Pld levels. These are things a Barb will never be able to get due to the alignment restrictions. But, if we are talking about a pure class Ftr vs. Barb, then I would give the edge to the Barb in the saves department, though the Ftr could use his 1,3,6,9, or 12th level feats to take any of the save feats or all of them. A Barb could do the same thing, though he has to make his feats count a bit more than a Ftr does since he only gets 5 feats at the moment, unless he is human, in which case he gets 6. Just thought I would throw this out there to add to the discussion. :)

[teddok]

Fighters are obsolete at the moment.
Sense when. My fighters all do very well. Cant quite mach the Barb for DPS but i come pretty friggen close.



The difference really is critical rage II which increases the threat range of a weapon by +2. That is what the fighter cannot match. In general the Barb will also have more hit points, DR boost, and better will saves as well.

Well i will agree with cirt range but as for more hit points....hahahaha my main Perren sit on 460 unbuffed. That more then most barbs raged.

[Renegade66]

Sense when. My fighters all do very well. Cant quite mach the Barb for DPS but i come pretty friggen close.

Well i will agree with cirt range but as for more hit points....hahahaha my main Perren sit on 460 unbuffed. That more then most barbs raged.

Since they nerfed AC. DPS is king, not AC anymore. If you think your DPS is pretty friggen close to Barbarian DPS then you are grouping with broken Barbarians. I can guarantee you that we could run the top 10 highest level quests on elite and you would not even approach 50% of my kills. I know that my own DPS fighter wouldn't. IMO the difference between having 420 HP and 490 HP is negligable. The longer you take to kill a monster the more time it has to whittle away at your HPs.

This goes for the rest of you trying to justify your DPS fighter builds on false statements of approaching 90% of Barbarian DPS. A straightforward, easy to build Barbarian with a Sword of Shadows and a Bloodstone will bury even the best Fighter builds or any combination Fighter type build.

The only exception would be a dual wielding wounding of puncturing build (fighter or ranger). Then again, this build is by far best made as a Barbarian.

Anyway, this is just the ebbs and flows of gameplay. Fighters ruled through cap 12, now they are gimped compared to Barbarians. That's why you see so many Barbs now, versus before. The next cap may bring AC back as king. Who knows. All I know now is that there's no sense playing my gimped fighter, when I have two uber Barbarians to run with.

[A_Sheep]

Is why the TWF 12/2 bard/fighter does more DPS than the Barbarian!

Here. (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=TWF+Bard&1bab=11&1atktype=dw&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5%2B7%2B5&1phed=2d6&1phth=%2B6&1phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4%2B5%2B7%2B5&1ohed=2d6&1ohth=%2B6&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1ohfocus=on&1ohlight=on&1ohcrit=on&1str=32&1dex=20&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=THF+Barb&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12%2B5%2B10&2phed=2d6&2phth=%2B0&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=42&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

While I think Shade is being a bit of a prick in this thread, it's true that it's tough for us to take into account a few things that this calculator doesn't: Glancing Blows (1st and 4th attacks gain +50% base damage, but also attacks while moving!) and GTWF (only 1 attack on first swing, but 2 attacks while moving, so you could get that extra attack in anyways if you hop around enough). Then, there's barbarian speed and the fact that the Bard will be hasted 99% of the time and the Barb likely will not.

You can fairly easily add some _estimated_ glancing blow damage in by hand. It's just 25% of the base damage (without extra damage dice and set crits on the calc to be 20/x1), which comes out to be +16 DPS in this specific situation. Now, if the Barbarian were always moving, it would be twice that (or +32 DPS).

The Bard's increase in DPS for moving all the time would be significantly less. All he gains is 1 more off-hand attack out of a regular of 4 main-hand and 3 off-hand attacks. (so, something in the neighborhood of +10% DPS)

(sorry to hijack the thread, you will now be returned to your regularly scheduled programming)

[Renegade66]

Is why the TWF 12/2 bard/fighter does more DPS than the Barbarian!

Here. (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=TWF+Bard&1bab=11&1atktype=dw&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5%2B7%2B5&1phed=2d6&1phth=%2B6&1phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4%2B5%2B7%2B5&1ohed=2d6&1ohth=%2B6&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1ohfocus=on&1ohlight=on&1ohcrit=on&1str=32&1dex=20&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=THF+Barb&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12%2B5%2B10&2phed=2d6&2phth=%2B0&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=42&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)



Thanks for the laugh. :D

[Grenfell]

Hah, i knew in my gut that nerd calc was busted and wrong. I didn't even look at it and I know its wrong.

And yea, GWS does not equal +8 str. Then theres power attack enhancements...

32 str vs 40 str = Barbarians rock and leave fighters in the dust as they are freakin +13 damage per hit ahead.
Want me to give you the breakdown on that? No. Just accept that its right, I know it in my gut, hell its probably more then that depending on how rounding is calculated.
Sorry but haste boost does not add up to 13 dmg per hit, so even vs crit imune stuff, fighters can go hide behind there shields where they belong.

Like I said, no one can properly and accuratley take into account the huge number of factors that play into DPS, so stop even trying and just accept barbarians are the best and multiclassing is a bad idea.

Welp, that's it. Shade has spoken. All discussion must cease.

I don't know why you even bother posting, Shade, on threads of mere mortals. Why don't you just Proclaim your Truth from some blog or something?

Since no one can properly and accurately take huge numbers of factors into account... we should just take your Word for it. Okay. Hey, I've got an idea. If we all agree to accept barbarians are the best and multiclassing is a bad idea, will your mission be complete and you no longer need to soil yourself by joining these inane discussions?

/gren

[EinarMal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Sheep http://ddoimages.turbine.com/forums/images/buttons/orange/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1319296#post1319296)
Is why the TWF 12/2 bard/fighter does more DPS than the Barbarian!

Here. (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=TWF+Bard&1bab=11&1atktype=dw&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5%2B7%2B5&1phed=2d6&1phth=%2B6&1phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4%2B5%2B7%2B5&1ohed=2d6&1ohth=%2B6&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1ohfocus=on&1ohlight=on&1ohcrit=on&1str=32&1dex=20&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=THF+Barb&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12%2B5%2B10&2phed=2d6&2phth=%2B0&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=42&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)




Thanks for the laugh. :D

The funny thing is that it is true sort of. A strength based TWF Bard does outdamage a max strength raging Barb considering only self buffs. That is how crazy powerful inspire courage is (and you get full credit on both hands when TWF).

Now the real trick is to make sure you don't sing next to the Barb;)

Ooops sorry Mr. Barbarian just missed you again :rolleyes:

[Grenfell]

This goes for the rest of you trying to justify your DPS fighter builds on false statements of approaching 90% of Barbarian DPS. A straightforward, easy to build Barbarian with a Sword of Shadows and a Bloodstone will bury even the best Fighter builds or any combination Fighter type build.

Prove it.

Take your straightforward, easy to build Barbarian with SoS and Bloodstone and compare it to a straightforward, easy to build DPS Fighter with SoS and Bloodstone and show that you will double the kills every time in every quest.

That will be SOME mathematical model involved to take Cleave and Great Cleave into account (or Greater THF into account, whichever your Barb did not take), or Crit Accuracy enhancements, or Haste boost.

I say it's impossible, and that the best-guesses based on limited data and analysis suggest the gap is much closer than you chest-thumping Barb fanatics want to believe.

/gren

[Mad_Bombardier]

Since people are using the Thott calculator, I'd like to take this time to point out that the Power Attack feature is broken. It does not multiply power attack damage on crits as it should. This can be worked around by simply not using the power attack feature and just subtracting from to-hit and adding to base damage.Thanks A_Sheep. I never thought the PA numbers looked right, but wasn't able to pin it down. Good analysis.

[Sadus]

Just to troll a little bit... for 1 min out of 20 this is what my WF Pally can do THIS....

Base 30 Str
Rage +2
Manstone +4
Bladesworn Trans +4

= 40 Strength

Bonus damage
PA w/ WF PA = +16
DF = +3
Blades = +4
Wep Special = +2
Smite Evil = +37 (formula if you don't know is 10+ 3x (lvl -1))

= 62 + Strength damage (22.5 or 24 if madstone goes off again from ranadom effect) = 12 (Max Wep Damage)+ 86 + 5 (Wep Enhancement) x 3 +18 = Max Hit of 327 :P... if I did my math right :)


So... do I get a cupcake for best situational DPS :)

Obviously a Pally can't maintain this... but I do like to humble Barbs with the possibilities :)

[Renegade66]

Prove it.

Take your straightforward, easy to build Barbarian with SoS and Bloodstone and compare it to a straightforward, easy to build DPS Fighter with SoS and Bloodstone and show that you will double the kills every time in every quest.

That will be SOME mathematical model involved to take Cleave and Great Cleave into account (or Greater THF into account, whichever your Barb did not take), or Crit Accuracy enhancements, or Haste boost.

I say it's impossible, and that the best-guesses based on limited data and analysis suggest the gap is much closer than you chest-thumping Barb fanatics want to believe.

/gren

Can't empirically prove it. I only have experience to go with. I've been playing DDO for about 2 years (beginning of Alpha testing). I've played myriad versions of DPS fighters and more recently Barbarians. I've played along side the best DPS fighter builds Xoriat and now Thelanis/Tharask has to offer and have never met a fighter type that could consistently approach 50% kills of either of my TWF or THF barbarians.

Of course, the biggest factor is not build but instead fighting technique and skill. In no way am I saying that the DPS is twice a fighters, however, it is signficantly higher to the point where I no longer see a benefit to playing a Fighter over a pure Barbarian. +2 Crit Range is just that good. 46 STR is just that good. Mid 20's Will Saves is just that good. Sprint Boost and DR are just that good. You should try it and join the club.

[Shade]

Obviously a Pally can't maintain this... but I do like to humble Barbs with the possibilities :)

Well you won't humble any good barbarians..

But you should make fighters look pretty bad while you have that transformation up. +7 dmg + another +3 for DF.. +10 dmg,
vs ftr at +1 dmg str, +4 dmg gws, +5 dmg. (could be human for more str but then -6 dmg for power attack)
And the +1 to hit for greatswords is kinda neat too, well for SoS anyways. Smite spec WF pally is pretty cool build, esp with some rogue lvls for umd to self heal and be nigh indestructible.

Thing about barbarians for crit numbers.. Is they can get lucky and crit like 10 times in a row for 200+ per hit. That just doesn't happen on paladins. You can crit 300+, and maybe even 400+ with a heavy pick, but not many times in a row.

[Shade]

And yea even if Fighters were a bit better at DPS, I like many strong barbariasn could still get double there kills.

Never failing will saves, rushing ahead like a madman with sprint boost and barbarian speed along with massive hitpoints just plain leads to insane kill counts. Fighters cant even get to the fight by the time you have everything killed, even if they did do better damage. Run speed plays a big factor in killrate.

Hell I know a few rangers that cannot be outkilled by fighters.. Again - sprint boost is the reason.

For a fighter to get 50% of my kills mean they are extremely skilled and a awesome build, I love grouping with those types of fighters there great players. The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.

[Sadus]

And yea even if Fighters were a bit better at DPS, I like many strong barbariasn could still get double there kills.

Never failing will saves, rushing ahead like a madman with sprint boost and barbarian speed along with massive hitpoints just plain leads to insane kill counts. Fighters cant even get to the fight by the time you have everything killed, even if they did do better damage. Run speed plays a big factor in killrate.

Hell I know a few rangers that cannot be outkilled by fighters.. Again - sprint boost is the reason.

For a fighter to get 50% of my kills mean they are extremely skilled and a awesome build, I love grouping with those types of fighters there great players. The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.


lol... omg.... I lmfao...... dude.. Axer you are too much sometimes :).... Please pass me the doob :)

I'll play cleric.... you go in there with Hydro and Gerb.... and I'd love to see those 1/3rd and 1/8th kill counts your talken about :)

[Capstern]

I would gladly take Gerbillee in there head to head for a run for fun - that would be a hoot.

My little halfling chickie 12 rgr/1 rog/1wiz yeah baby

Not saying I would beat ya but I would bet I dont miss by more than 1-2 kills

[A_Sheep]

The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.

The problem is using kill counts as a metric. I will take an incredibly simplified scenario of 10 mobs with 500 HP each.

Barbarian does 100 DPS. Fighter does 75 DPS.

Let's look at it 3 ways:

Way 1: Both gang up on the same mob all the time.

Fighter is doing 43% of the DPS, Barbarian is doing 57% of the DPS. Just due to chance of landing the final blow, fighter ought to kill 4.3 of them and Barbarian ought to kill 5.7 of them. (this is not what typically the strategy people use)

Way 2: Both start at opposite ends of the line of mobs.

Barbarian kills 1 mob in 5 sec, fighter kills 1 mob in 6.66 sec. In the first 26 seconds, Barbarian kills 5 mobs and fighter kills 4. They are both now fighting the last mob and have the same chances as above of landing the killing blow. So, you could say fighter killed 4.43 of them and Barb kills 5.57 of them. (This is also not the typical strategy)

Way 3: Fighter and Barb start on different mobs right next to each other, when the Barbarian finishes his mob off, he works on the fighter's mob, then they each move to a new mob.

Barbarian kills 1 mob in 5 seconds and moves on to the nearly dead mob the fighter has been working on. Barbarian has a 57% chance to 'steal' the kill. They move on to the next mob and same thing happens. This leads to Barbarian getting 5 kills straight up and 57% of the other 5 kills (2.85), leaving the fighter with 2.15. Barbarian kills 7.85 and Fighter kills 2.15.

Via way 3, The fighter has only 21.5% of all the kills, but is contributing 43% of the damage.

Using the tactics in way 3, having even the slightest (1%) DPS advantage leads to getting at least 75% of the kills.

I'm not saying that the strategy in Way 3 is particularly wrong. It requires significantly less communication than Way 1 (which is probably the ideal way to kill stuff). It does, however, spread the agro around, while Way 1 will keep almost all the agro on the Barbarian (easier for cleric) and perhaps allows the fighter to flank (fighter's flanking?), possibly increasing the overall DPS of the group.

Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

[NightbirdX]

I find that all this talk about how no one can hold a candle to so and so's build and won't even get close to their kill count is a little bit dumb. I have never seen anyone in the game that will just absolutely obliterate anyone's builds. A well played, well kitted, well built Fighter will go toe to toe with a well played, kitted, built Barb. I merely started this thread as a fact gouge, not an e-peen measuring contest.

I pride myself in building very good builds, particularly fighter builds. I play the build then I find whatever is wrong with it and rebuild it better. I have never, and the Rock repeats NEVER, had any other melee outkill me 2 to 1. Most of the time I will lead kill count, and if I lose it isn't by a huge margin. That goes for both my Tactics tank, and my TWF DPS'er. If you are playing with a group of people that can't kill anything, you should just hand wands to them and have them heal you, because they are complete toolbags.

I'd even be able to take you up on that challenge Renegade if you want to have a go sometime. My Dwarf isn't even really a DPS'er he is more a versatility build that kills extremely well and stays alive (52 Buffed AC, 346 HP at level 13.) And I would be willing to bet you won't slay me 2 to 1.

[Spakerman]

...(good stuff)...
Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

I wish more people would read this and just stop looking at the kill count during quests ... period. In fact I wish it was hidden completely. It matters not who kills what... what matters is that they get dead before you do.

[Renegade66]

I'd even be able to take you up on that challenge Renegade if you want to have a go sometime. My Dwarf isn't even really a DPS'er he is more a versatility build that kills extremely well and stays alive (52 Buffed AC, 346 HP at level 13.) And I would be willing to bet you won't slay me 2 to 1.

Awesome. Sounds fun. At least something different than pharming Crucible & PotP.

Might I suggest Madstone Crater Elite? It's a long enough quest to get a good sample size and has a nice mix of hefty monsters.

The bet is simple. You have to get at least half the kills of Jellybean.

If you do, I will publically humble myself with an "I was wrong" statement on this forum (better yet a new one) and side with the fighters against Shade and other Barbarian lovers.

When you... I mean if you lose, you need to join the Barbarian bandwagon and help us spread the truth that Fighters are currently gimped compared to pure Barbarians. No more talk about how "fighters can hold their own", etc. This should be easy as you will have experienced first hand how an uber fighter couldn't even muster half the kills of an elven Barbarian.

Let's line up a couple clerics and a couple casters to assist. Self buffing only with the exception of haste from the casters. We progress through the quest in the normal manner (i.e., no one gets left behind to die, we gather for group heals, hastes, etc.). Casters cast crowd control only (in addition to haste). Meaning, no firewalls, FoDs, PKs, etc. Webs, dancing balls, gay bars, flesh to stone, hold monster, etc. allowed.

Fair enough?

I have my Fantasy Football draft tonight, but this weekend should be good. How's your schedule look?

Ren

[nbhs275]

hmm... Maybe we should do this kind of thing on khyber... Get a DPS Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger. Everyone goes in with only self buffs and no healer. Whoever gets the most kills before dieing wins.

I think the best of each class i can think of on khyber is

Fighter: ???? alot of good fighters, but not any DPS ones that really stand out

Barbarian: Malidini comes to mind, he would be a good pick i think

Ranger: Either Squal, or Infidel. Both **** good rangers.

Paladin: I feel kinda bad nominating my paladin, but there are simply too few DPS paladins out there.

[bandyman1]

hmm... Maybe we should do this kind of thing on khyber... Get a DPS Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger. Everyone goes in with only self buffs and no healer. Whoever gets the most kills before dieing wins.

I think the best of each class i can think of on khyber is

Fighter: ???? alot of good fighters, but not any DPS ones that really stand out

Barbarian: Malidini comes to mind, he would be a good pick i think

Ranger: Either Squal, or Infidel. Both **** good rangers.

Paladin: I feel kinda bad nominating my paladin, but there are simply too few DPS paladins out there.

Geez, you wouldn't stack the odds in your favor, would ya? I mean, that's kinda the benefit to a paladin, you know, self-healing? Just like the benefit of the barb is unmatched DPS.

[Xundrin]

if anyone wants to make any friendly wagers before the contest feel free to pm me. I offer the following odds:


Jellybean: -250
other fighter: +200

for those of you who are unfamiliar with the system:
you want jelly bean to win you put up 250 to win 100
you want other guy to win you put up 100 to win 200

no friendly wager will be accepted until the plat transfers hands.

if someone knows the exact number (round about) of possible kills in madstone, we can do a point spread instead

[PurdueDave]

if anyone wants to make any friendly wagers before the contest feel free to pm me. I offer the following odds:


Jellybean: -250
other fighter: +200

for those of you who are unfamiliar with the system:
you want jelly bean to win you put up 250 to win 100
you want other guy to win you put up 100 to win 200

no friendly wager will be accepted until the plat transfers hands.

if someone knows the exact number (round about) of possible kills in madstone, we can do a point spread instead

You should clarify if a Jellybean win constitutes > 2/1 kill margin vs. the fighter, as noted in the posts, or a straight kill win.

[Xundrin]

You should clarify if a Jellybean win constitutes > 2/1 kill margin vs. the fighter, as noted in the posts, or a straight kill win.

2/1 kill margin vs fighter,

[sigtrent]

I'd say they both need to use equivilent weapons of the same type, or if that isn't possible +5 stock weapons of prefered type.

Otherwise gear is really going to play a huge factor. Sword of Shadows is not a "build" neither are dual Wounding/Puncturing rapiers.

[NightbirdX]

Might I suggest Madstone Crater Elite? It's a long enough quest to get a good sample size and has a nice mix of hefty monsters.

The bet is simple. You have to get at least half the kills of Jellybean.

If you do, I will publically humble myself with an "I was wrong" statement on this forum (better yet a new one) and side with the fighters against Shade and other Barbarian lovers.

When you... I mean if you lose, you need to join the Barbarian bandwagon and help us spread the truth that Fighters are currently gimped compared to pure Barbarians. No more talk about how "fighters can hold their own", etc. This should be easy as you will have experienced first hand how an uber fighter couldn't even muster half the kills of an elven Barbarian.


Sounds good. I work Friday and saturday nights, but depending on your schedule, I play early morning Eastern standard time, normally 7-10am after work, or we can do it sunday evening. If those times don't work, we can work something else out and set up a time.

I don't think we should put limitations on weapon types. I think that starts to restrict the challenge a little much. I can make a full list of the weapons I use, I have nothing to hide.

I do believe that Barbarians are the top DD's, but like Grenfell, I really don't think that the margin is that great vs. a 2h DPS Ftr. But, myself being an experienced gamer, and D & D player, I think this will be fun to see what will happen. Am I nervous that I might actually get slayed and humiliated? Sure I am, but I really don't think that it is going to go like that. But of course, first and foremost I am a man, and can give credit where credit is due, and will be the first to post a forum on both the Fighter and Barbarian forums with the results of the contest, and either my humble congratulations, or gracefully accept Renegade's humble congratulations.

[Shade]

Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

No its not, like I said its due to have a far higher run speed.
None of your scenario would happen in any groups im in. 8 mobs ahead? .. All 8 are dead before the fighter gets there, there nothing for him to damage for me to "steal".

And in terms of a team working together.. Sometimes my teams prefer I run ahead so we can do the quest faster.. Infact they usualy expect it.

Re: imposing a set of stupid rules then competing for kill count. Thats just the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Competing for kills can be fun, but why would you set some kind of rules of what can be done to skew things in your favor? Thats just like automatically admitting your ******** and can only perform under ideal conditions.

No one really cares if its rigged in your favor. Do it normally with no rules. The game shows the score and makes the rules, we don't need to go any further then that.

[Renegade66]

Let's shoot for Saturday morning then. I should be on Jellybean around 8am EST. I've found a couple guys to help so far. Since I know them, I'm instructing them to heal normally, but if there's any question to heal you first. If you have a caster and cleric you want to bring that would be cool too.


Sounds good. I work Friday and saturday nights, but depending on your schedule, I play early morning Eastern standard time, normally 7-10am after work, or we can do it sunday evening. If those times don't work, we can work something else out and set up a time.

I don't think we should put limitations on weapon types. I think that starts to restrict the challenge a little much. I can make a full list of the weapons I use, I have nothing to hide.

I do believe that Barbarians are the top DD's, but like Grenfell, I really don't think that the margin is that great vs. a 2h DPS Ftr. But, myself being an experienced gamer, and D & D player, I think this will be fun to see what will happen. Am I nervous that I might actually get slayed and humiliated? Sure I am, but I really don't think that it is going to go like that. But of course, first and foremost I am a man, and can give credit where credit is due, and will be the first to post a forum on both the Fighter and Barbarian forums with the results of the contest, and either my humble congratulations, or gracefully accept Renegade's humble congratulations.

[loki523]

First off, on Madstone elite, I'm pretty sure there are only a handful of people in game that can even get 20% of Jellybean's kills much less beat him. That said, I know I can do it on my ranger I just haven't pulled it off. Closest I came was 10 less kills but I was dead for a significant portion of one of the seer fights (prior to that I was up by 10).

Secondly, anyone on Thelanis think their straight fighter can beat my battle cleric solo? I want to make some money too... :D

[EinarMal]

I think like Shade that the run speed difference is what really makes it and will be the difference. If you were in a group that went at the same pace I would give the fighter a good chance of staying close. Without that the Barb will win hands down if your zerging as fast as possible. Every fight will start with the Barb getting 1 more kill plus half of the next mob before the fighter even gets 1 swing in.

[Renegade66]

I think like Shade that the run speed difference is what really makes it and will be the difference. If you were in a group that went at the same pace I would give the fighter a good chance of staying close. Without that the Barb will win hands down if your zerging as fast as possible. Every fight will start with the Barb getting 1 more kill plus half of the next mob before the fighter even gets 1 swing in.

Are you suggesting I not move fast? Isn't that one of the inherent benefits of a Barbarian? Maybe we should ask him to not wear armor, because it's unfair that he will get hit less than me.

With that said, I do plan on waiting up, getting a group haste then proceeding forward as a team. I may even want him go first into the fray, since he's better suited to take the aggro. In the end, this won't be a test of who can zerg furthest ahead.

And for you Loki, don't hijack my hijack. :D

[Renegade66]

I didn't say it wasn't fair I just said that is why he will lose. The only way he can compete is in a group that stays together (you know those that post in the message "team players only" and "no zerging"). That was my point, that only in "take it slow" and "stay together" groups would the fighter be able to stay close in kills.

As I said, he will not lose because of that. We will stay together and take it slow and methodically.

[EinarMal]

Are you suggesting I not move fast? Isn't that one of the inherent benefits of a Barbarian? Maybe we should ask him to not wear armor, because it's unfair that he will get hit less than me.

With that said, I do plan on waiting up, getting a group haste then proceeding forward as a team. I may even want him go first into the fray, since he's better suited to take the aggro. In the end, this won't be a test of who can zerg furthest ahead.

And for you Loki, don't hijack my hijack. :D

I didn't say it wasn't fair I just said that is why he will lose. The only way he can compete is in a group that stays together (you know those that post in the message "team players only" and "no zerging"). That was my point, that only in "take it slow" and "stay together" groups would the fighter be able to stay close in kills. If you do let him go in first then I would be very interested in the results as you would think it would be more even.

[Fallout]

Just post the results. This is pretty entertaining.

[Capstern]

No its not, like I said its due to have a far higher run speed.
None of your scenario would happen in any groups im in. 8 mobs ahead? .. All 8 are dead before the fighter gets there, there nothing for him to damage for me to "steal".

And in terms of a team working together.. Sometimes my teams prefer I run ahead so we can do the quest faster.. Infact they usualy expect it.

Re: imposing a set of stupid rules then competing for kill count. Thats just the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Competing for kills can be fun, but why would you set some kind of rules of what can be done to skew things in your favor? Thats just like automatically admitting your ******** and can only perform under ideal conditions.

No one really cares if its rigged in your favor. Do it normally with no rules. The game shows the score and makes the rules, we don't need to go any further then that.


Fortunately Gerb pretty much runs as fast as you :) or close enough to really matter

Figure axer would get a moderate lead in the open room and then its a foot race mob to mob - 30% stride plus ranger turbo and haste even that up more or less

You said spyrals barb was really close to you in kills one time and I know I stopped him mercilessly the time he ran with us...so would be fun fun....

Like I told you one day - you are the last real Tor challenge left on khyber L:)

[Casta]

I think im going to have to test this, I know someone who plays a 2 hand fighter, i think he will beat my barb because he has cleave bound to a foot peddle and has slightly better stuff but ill try it.

I think what will happen is cleave will outdamage two handed fighting because hes one of the few good fighters that constantly uses it, most fighters don't use it nearly enough to outdamage thf.

[Fallout]

Fortunately Gerb pretty much runs as fast as you :) or close enough to really matter

Figure axer would get a moderate lead in the open room and then its a foot race mob to mob - 30% stride plus ranger turbo and haste even that up more or less

You said spyrals barb was really close to you in kills one time and I know I stopped him mercilessly the time he ran with us...so would be fun fun....

Like I told you one day - you are the last real Tor challenge left on khyber L:)

Haste and strider boots don't stack.

A big factor is who has better weapons/greater banes etc.

[Shade]

You said spyrals barb was really close to you in kills one time and I know I stopped him mercilessly the time he ran with us...so would be fun fun....

Like I told you one day - you are the last real Tor challenge left on khyber L:)

His barbarian? Nah don't think I did it with him, wouldn't be that close anyways. I outkilled barbarians on my sorcerer in melee there lol. His ranger cay was pretty close. I also did it with maldinis barbarian, that was fun.

Usually I slaughter the kill count in tor cuz I go solo either side at the split and send the group the oposite way leave all those giants for me to bury my axe into. Tho I don't care that much which way ppl go as long as we split up for speed.

[Shade]

Haste and strider boots don't stack.

A big factor is who has better weapons/greater banes etc.

My weps only a +2 greater bane, kinda crappy. Twitch skill is the deciding factor really.

[Nemonon]

this looks like a hell of a fun time. i currently play grenfells round mound of astound with a few modifications of my own and i destroy every fighter and barbarian within two lvls of me in kills every quest i've played. keep in mind i'm only lvl 6 at the moment. i'd be interested to see how grens 32 point mound would do in this "contest". i guess a wounding/puncturing ranger would probably beat out the benifits of the dwarven axe's increased base damage and enhancements not sure about the math on it. i still think the mound is a solid choice for the ranger slot in this contest. hell bring em both and let the numbers answer for us. just one sugestion though. go the best 2 outa 3 . that way you can make sure it wasn't a lucky run......looking forward to hearing more about this one.............= )

[Strumpoo]

:D Spawnd SMASHES puny fleshling fighters into dust!!


Stupid fleshlings.... Always in the way of spawnd's hammers and mauls..

SMASH SMASH SMASH!:p


I would say the barb would win in a straight DPS/kill count fight. That is their sole purpose in life.....To Kill. All their feats and enhancements are used for just that purpose.

Fighters get confused and worry about AC and saves and things with their feats and enhancements. Barbs have no need for armor or saves, they may not even know what they are!! :D

[nbhs275]

:D Spawnd SMASHES puny fleshling fighters into dust!!


Stupid fleshlings.... Always in the way of spawnd's hammers and mauls..

SMASH SMASH SMASH!:p


I would say the barb would win in a straight DPS/kill count fight. That is their sole purpose in life.....To Kill. All their feats and enhancements are used for just that purpose.

Fighters get confused and worry about AC and saves and things with their feats and enhancements. Barbs have no need for armor or saves, they may not even know what they are!! :D


A barb without saves is a dead barb.

But as far as barbs being alive solely to kill. Got that right. I mean, my lvl 4 barb(made him yesterday) has so far had 90% of all kills in every quest, even with fighters, rangers and pallies 1-3 levels above him being in the party.

[Jaysensen]

player skill + fast PC + decent connection > build + gear

[Renegade66]

player skill + fast PC + decent connection > build + gear

player skill > fast PC + decent connection + build + gear :D

[Renegade66]

Challenge results posted in new thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119954

Thanks again to NightbirdX for a good time.

[NightbirdX]

moved.

[Crabo]

I have a fighter with the SoS and all the 2 hander feats and also a barbarian (no SoS yet) with the 2 hander feats. Without getting into too much detail with maths etc, it is quite obvious that the barb has the edge in damage, hp, DR and saves.

But really in terms of practical gameplay , you would notice little difference in their effectiveness if they were both played by the same person. The barb hits a little harder, the fighter hits a little more often ....the barb has more hitpoints, but rarely has this been the difference between success or failure.

I really think for clickie lovers, fighters are a good option (cant clickie while raging) , but if you like seeing big numbers Barbs are the way to go.

[XFracture]

Your a nerd.

And you're an r-tard.

You might see DDO as a set of numbers and calculations, but I don't.

Fair enough

Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science...

Yeah? What a coincidence... so am I. And I think you're a frickin idiot. Either that or you're a liar. Computers ARE an exact science. 101010, It's that simple; True or false, positive or negative, there is no room for negotiation here. A computer does exactly what you tell it to do, it doesn't have a will of it's own nor does it up and say, "Hey, you know what? I think I'm done with all this mathematical mumbo jumbo that these guys are throwing at me. I think I'll just up and do what I want to do today."

Wherever you got your degree (if you even have one) I'd march right back there and ask for your money back. Prolly got an associates or worse yet, a certification from ITT Tech. You are NOT an expert if this **** is coming out of your mouth.

...many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities.

Wrong again "Einstein". Every, and I mean EVERY, known nuance of communication technology is calculable. What you're talking about is human error. In otherwords a Developer who, by chance of oversight, does not catch a mathematical innaccuracy in the coding. Which the COMPUTER then compensates for in a CALCULATED fashion. Thus creating what online gamers refer to as "bugs".

Someone needs to take a refresher course on metadata.

If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.

Yet another reason you're a liar or a poorly educated poseur.

You just answered your own question. Human error. Humans aren't exact but computers are. It does what you tell it to, nothing more and nothing less. Just because the Developers had a hard time tracking what part of their coding was causing the problem doesn't mean that it wasn't doing exactly what it was programmed to do.

Whether the dev's meant to program it (DDO) to do what it (DDO) was doing is a whole 'nother story.

You seriously need to go back to your university. While you're at it, hit up some basic English classes too. Unless English is a second language to you, in which case nevermind.



I realize there are several pages in this thread but I stopped at this point because people who pretend to know what they're talking about, but clearly don't, need to get stomped out immediately and unequivocally.