View Full Version : Barbarian vs. 2h Fighter
NightbirdX
08-24-2007, 09:15 AM
I am just finishing up my Dwarven Tactical Fighter. Loads of fun to play. But, along the way I decided I wanted a Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian also. It looks insanely fun to swing a huge piece of metal and cut things in twain. I like the looks of a Barbarian. Pure hate and discontent unleashed upon the lands, and the Two Handed Fighter, master of offensive feats. I have been hearing that in Pure Numbers alone a Barb will own anyone. I have never played a barby so don't really know the mechanics of it. Is it pure pwnage from the extra Str? Does a 2h Ftr even have a chance vs the Barb? Do the added offensive feats make up for the lower Str?
Any input would be appreciated and if someone could show some numbers I'd appreciate that too. Not a good numbers person myself. /cheers
Blazer
08-24-2007, 01:11 PM
The huge barb advantage currently comes from two things - the ability to rage to 40 STR (yes, fighters can get to 40 STR, but that requires a human, max STR, raged, Madstone Raged, +3 STR tome, and +1 Human adaptability - obviously not something you see often) and even more importantly, the Critical Rage enhancements. Getting to crit 10% more often is a HUGE advantage and is what makes barbs the DPS kings they currently are. Gear and playstyle will help close the gap, but let's not kid ourselves - that Critical Rage enhancement line tips the balance.
Casta
08-24-2007, 02:17 PM
Human fighter could get 41 str 21 base 3 tome 4 fighter str 1 human str 2 rage 2 madstone rage clicky 2 madstone rage hidden effect.
Barbs lose 3 from the enhancement gain 10 from rage and cant double madstone rage so with the same gear a barb should be 5 str higher, not a huge diffrence its just much easyer for a barb to keep there str higher then a fighter to keep up that sort of str.
Fighter feats make up for the str diffrence, nothing they can get makes up for the extra crit range.
Strakeln
08-24-2007, 03:24 PM
Barbs... cant double madstone rage Not true. They most certainly can.
My calculations put a pure barb at 46 max str (49 with a +3 alchemical pot, if they exist for str) and 47 for a barb12/ftr2 (50 with alchemical if they exist):
18 base
3 levels
3 tome
6 item
6 greater rage
4 power rage
2 rage clickie
2 madstone clickie
2 madstone effect
= 46 for a pure barbarian (add +1 enhancement for barb12/ftr2).
Then add in alchemical bonuses if they exist.
Strakeln
08-24-2007, 03:31 PM
Heck, I know you're going to make me prove it: double-madstoned barbarian (http://home.stny.rr.com/chadman/ScreenShot00203.jpg)
(note: my barb is not str-maxxed... only has a +1 tome, and only put 2 out of the 3 level points into str... so you can take the str you see there and add 3 to get the current max without alchemical bonuses).
bandyman1
08-24-2007, 04:58 PM
Heck, I know you're going to make me prove it: double-madstoned barbarian (http://home.stny.rr.com/chadman/ScreenShot00203.jpg)
(note: my barb is not str-maxxed... only has a +1 tome, and only put 2 out of the 3 level points into str... so you can take the str you see there and add 3 to get the current max without alchemical bonuses).
No offense bro...but your will save needs some work :D .
*disclamer; Sorry, but had to rib ya.
Strakeln
08-24-2007, 05:39 PM
No offense bro...but your will save needs some work :D
*disclamer; Sorry, but had to rib ya.I find that between the kundarak delving boots and protection from evil, will save means a lot less. That said, this was a pic of me in total DPS mode (I'd just picked up a seeker +6 item and was trying to get a BIIIG crit)... I'm not wearing the kundarak boots, or a resistance item, or a wisdom item, etc etc.
Edit: hah - on closer inspection I see that I'm wearing rage clickie goggles instead of something useful... I think you get my point. When needed, I can sustain the will save in the 18-20 range, although I find it's pretty much unnecessary in the PvE world if you have the boots.
Casta
08-24-2007, 06:04 PM
Heck, I know you're going to make me prove it: double-madstoned barbarian (http://home.stny.rr.com/chadman/ScreenShot00203.jpg)
(note: my barb is not str-maxxed... only has a +1 tome, and only put 2 out of the 3 level points into str... so you can take the str you see there and add 3 to get the current max without alchemical bonuses).
Why won't it let me double madstone then?
Strakeln
08-24-2007, 06:10 PM
Why won't it let me double madstone then?I think you don't understand how double madstone happens. One is the clickie you are familiar with. The other is an effect that is occasionally applied when you are hit while wearing the boots (maybe on a crit? not sure).
So to get double madstoned, you need to hit the clickie then get someone to hit you.
Casta
08-25-2007, 01:08 PM
I think you don't understand how double madstone happens. One is the clickie you are familiar with. The other is an effect that is occasionally applied when you are hit while wearing the boots (maybe on a crit? not sure).
So to get double madstoned, you need to hit the clickie then get someone to hit you.
Ya i kept trying to rage then use the clicky, thats why it was never working for me, but still 1 min 30 seconds per shrine really doesn't count as standing str, even if it is nice to see your str that high.
Strakeln
08-25-2007, 04:28 PM
Ya i kept trying to rage then use the clicky, thats why it was never working for me, but still 1 min 30 seconds per shrine really doesn't count as standing str, even if it is nice to see your str that high.Agreed, in all fairness madstone boots should be excluded from the discussion.
Grenfell
08-27-2007, 08:51 AM
I've read the thread in Barb forum as well, and where it's not descending into insults, there's some useful info all around.
My take on it is that the two are different but fairly equal.
Get the easy stuff out of the way: Vs. Undead, Constructs, and anything that is crit-immune, the Barbarian advantage goes away as compared to a dedicated DPS THF. (Comparing some Tank-build Fighter to a raging Barbarian is pointless in the extreme).
Here's the base:
32 Str for the Fighter vs. 40 Str (raged) for the Barb.
Both can use Rage potions, both can use Madstone, etc. so leave those out for the time being.
Now, take GWS into account: +4, which is equal to +8 Str. Suddenly, we're at 40 Str vs. 40 Str functionally speaking. That is zero difference in plain-vanilla damage output.
But, the THF fighter can have nearly every DPS-oriented feat. For instance, my THF fighter has Greater THF and Cleave and Great Cleave. Those types of things are impossible to figure out numerically. But they do count, and they do matter.
If a Barb has GTHF, then he's missing Cleave/Great Cleave -- those DO add DPS, but how much and how often? Who can say. And vice versa. If a Barb has Cleave/Great Cleave, then he's missing GTHF -- and that adds significantly to glancing blows damage. But how much and how often? Impossible to predict.
But at base, without taking crits into account (as you would in an undead quest), we're really talking about +2 to hit for the raged Barb vs. the Fighter. In that scenario, I don't think it can be argued that the Fighter wins. You can easily check this out in Delera's or in WizKing by taking a THF DPS build and a Barbarian and giving them both equal weapons -- say a +5 Greataxe, no specials (of course, you have to assume equal player skill).
That's all fine and good, but hey, the Barb DOES have Critical Rage II. Now, of course, we have to take crits into account.
Crits vs. Barb Crits (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Crits&1bab=14&1atktype=2h&1spm=90&1phd=1d12&1phed=0&1phth=&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=10&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=Barb+Crits&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=1d12&2phed=0&2phth=&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d4&2ohed=0&2ohth=0&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=40&2dex=10&2sneakpct=0&2sneakd=1d6&2cleavepct=0&report=on&minac=20&maxac=60)
According to that calculation (and I kept it as simple as possible by using non-magic weapons, etc.), the Barb has an enormous advantage thanks to the higher crit range on mobs that can be critted at all. But notice, the advantage decreases as the mob AC goes up.
At AC 20, there's almost a 20 hp per second difference between the two. At AC 60, there's no difference whatsoever. At AC 45, the difference is about 10 hp/sec.
Now, throw in Cleave/Great Cleave (or conversely, GTHF glancing blows) into the equation. Do they make up 20hp/sec difference? Hard to say -- I doubt the gap goes away entirely, but certainly the gap will narrow. Maybe the true difference isn't 10hp/sec but more like 5hp/sec? Maybe it's 2hp/sec? Maybe the Fighter actually has the advantage? At higher AC levels, which is what we expect to find at the endgame, is the gap 10hp/sec or is it closer to 2hp/sec? Is it no gap at all? Or does the Fighter actually have the upper hand? It's really impossible to say.
None of this takes any of the other ancillary things into account -- AC, saves, hp, etc. etc. It doesn't take Fighter Haste boost into account, which certainly increases damage output. It doesn't take the effect of specialty weapons like vorpals with Crit Enhancements, or Flanking bonuses, or any such thing into account.
But looking at just the damage output with the simplest assumptions, I think the gap is not as wide as people might think. Barbarians should still come out on top (if raged) but not by this enormous margin people think.
/gren
PS: I just saw the post re: 1.5x strength bonus. Okay, 32 Str = +11; 40 Str = +15. 150% of those number is +16 (rounding down) for the Fighter and +23 for the Barbarian. Big difference, I know. Now add the +4 for the Fighter; now it's +20 vs. +23. The gap is equivalent to +6 Str; big, I know, but not overwhelmingly dominant. :) The graph above, by the way, takes the 1.5x into account.
Taerdra
08-27-2007, 09:12 AM
Gren,
I noticed that you didn't include PA. With enhancements, this will give the Barb some more advantage on Mobs that can't be critted, but obviously impacts to-hit where fighters can easily fit in WF/GWF while Barbs STR bonus applies to their to-hit as well. A Warforged Fighter can match that, but then they have no racial enh bonuses either.
Of course, this is getting into some very specific builds, but does give some additional nuance. Just was curious as to your thoughts...
Grenfell
08-27-2007, 12:40 PM
Gren,
I noticed that you didn't include PA. With enhancements, this will give the Barb some more advantage on Mobs that can't be critted, but obviously impacts to-hit where fighters can easily fit in WF/GWF while Barbs STR bonus applies to their to-hit as well. A Warforged Fighter can match that, but then they have no racial enh bonuses either.
Of course, this is getting into some very specific builds, but does give some additional nuance. Just was curious as to your thoughts...
I think it still remains the same -- meaning, I'm NOT denying that Barbs are the top melee DPS class in game. They are. What I'm suggesting is that the gap isn't this enormous thing that means Barbs do triple the damage of fighters. They have an advantage, sure, but it's fairly minor.
/gren
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