Please make DR matter

[paintedman]

It seems to me that DR/bubble gum works well in the beginning but towards the end of current mid level (eight or so) that mobs of any difficulty start realizing that you are indeed wearing bubble gum for dr and just plain hit harder.

I know that keeping it as low as it is keeps dr from becoming over-powerful, but it seems to me that right now the whole idea of taking feats and enhancements are more than a bit shy from a useful aspect of our characters.

Can we tweak this ability a bit?

How about making the feats themselves add +2 to dr? Currently the mobs are a little super charged so lets super charge some feats already no?

-paintedman

[In_Like_Flynn]

It seems to me that DR/bubble gum works well in the beginning but towards the end of current mid level (eight or so) that mobs of any difficulty start realizing that you are indeed wearing bubble gum for dr and just plain hit harder.

I know that keeping it as low as it is keeps dr from becoming over-powerful, but it seems to me that right now the whole idea of taking feats and enhancements are more than a bit shy from a useful aspect of our characters.

Can we tweak this ability a bit?

How about making the feats themselves add +2 to dr? Currently the mobs are a little super charged so lets super charge some feats already no?

-paintedmanDR is useless. Just ask Barbarians.

[Citymorg]

I'd like to see the static DR enhancement go up to 12/-, the action boost go up to 20 or 30 and the Titan Docent get either: More charges or last longer (min. 2 minutes)

[Kalanth]

The DR/- is right on par with PnP and can be enhanced beyond those numbers with the enhancements. It is not intended to resist massive amounts of damage in any way. Really, it's a little bonus for the low level, and an after thought for the high level. I am happy with that, and would not want to see it change (though it may in PnP with 4th edition comming out).

[paintedman]

If indeed DDO had kept in line with PnP, which I think anyone playing at high levels knows that is simply not the case. I think if DDO is going to change the amount of damage creatures are going to dish out then abilities such as DR should scale appropriately. I can tell you don't use DR, which is fine, but I do.

How about telling me how this will affect you so I can see your point rather than telling me that this particular ability is in line with PnP?

-paintedman

[Dingo123]

If indeed DDO had kept in line with PnP, which I think anyone playing at high levels knows that is simply not the case. I think if DDO is going to change the amount of damage creatures are going to dish out then abilities such as DR should scale appropriately. I can tell you don't use DR, which is fine, but I do.

How about telling me how this will affect you so I can see your point rather than telling me that this particular ability is in line with PnP?

-paintedman


The problem with DR is that if you make it too useful it suddenly becomes overmasteringly powerful.

Let's say we made it so the barbarian had a DR of 10. That DR effectively translates to extra Hitpoints on the barbarian that already has a whole lot of them.

Compare this to the already struggling to tank Fighter (because AC has been rendered useless at higher levels).

So now the main defensive strength has been not only negated (AC), but the primary competition for tankdom has given a massive leg up in that pursuit.

A canny Barbarian would start making a point to wear "Ice Guard" or Lightning Guard" items in the HOPES of getting hit as it would increase his tanking viability while potentially doing reasonable damage to every foe he came in contact with.

[Kalanth]

Actually, I only play Warforged, and only one of those forged does not have the DR enhancments (one is admantine body + the enhancements). And the proper way to put it is, "Kalanth uses DR knowing that it is as usefull as AC at high levels." I mean, you are not wrong in that the numbers are over inflated in the high end. I believe the main problem is the number of successful critical hits by the enemy compared to the dmg resisted. I don't think shooting for 20 - 30 DR would be reasonable. Seems a touch unstabling to me, just my opinion, of course. If they boosted it, or opened up the enhancments a touch to increase the amount potential, I would say they cap it at 15 / - (which is the max a monster can have under the current rule set). Certainly won't drastically reduce what you take, but it can save a life once in a while. And don't forget, the elemental dmgs bypass the DR because they are spell effects (though I am sure you are well aware of that).

[Dingo123]

Actually, I only play Warforged, and only one of those forged does not have the DR enhancments (one is admantine body + the enhancements). I mean, you are not wrong in that the numbers are over inflated in the high end. I believe the main problem is the number of successful critical hits by the enemy compared to the dmg resisted. I don't think shooting for 20 - 30 DR would be reasonable. Seems a touch unstabling to me, just my opinion, of course. If they boosted it, or opened up the enhancments a touch to increase the amount potential, I would say they cap it at 15 / - (which is the max a monster can have under the current rule set). Certainly won't drastically reduce what you take, but it can save a life once in a while. And don't forget, the elemental dmgs bypass the DR because they are spell effects (though I am sure you are well aware of that).

Let's say we gave a barbarin at level 14 15 DR.

In the span of ten hits it means he has 150 more hitpoints than the fighter sitting next to him.

In the span of 20 that's 300, and so forth.

DR can make a dramatic impact.

Try this, go make a Warforged Fighter, put him in adamantine, give him an adamantine shield. For all of your "natural" feat increases get improved damage reduction. Take all the damage reduction enhancements. I think you'll end up with, around level 14 with about 10 damage reduction. It'll make a BIG difference.

[Dingo123]

I will do all but the shield, because they don't stack, but otherwise. ;)

I know it makes a difference, and 5 more points would effective increase the difference to possibly bring things in line with the heightened melee potential from the enemy. But I am not really the one advocating a change, as I would rather see it remain as it is. As I said in my previous post, the DR (my highest being 7) feels about as effective as the 52 AC I can muster on my cleric in high end content. It's a nice number, but the enemy still beats on my like a $2 hooker who is stealing from her pimp.

You know, I always thought armor/shield adamantine DR stacked.

[Kalanth]

Let's say we gave a barbarin at level 14 15 DR.

In the span of ten hits it means he has 150 more hitpoints than the fighter sitting next to him.

In the span of 20 that's 300, and so forth.

DR can make a dramatic impact.

Try this, go make a Warforged Fighter, put him in adamantine, give him an adamantine shield. For all of your "natural" feat increases get improved damage reduction. Take all the damage reduction enhancements. I think you'll end up with, around level 14 with about 10 damage reduction. It'll make a BIG difference.

I will do all but the shield, because they don't stack, but otherwise. ;)

I know it makes a difference, and 5 more points would effective increase the difference to possibly bring things in line with the heightened melee potential from the enemy. But I am not really the one advocating a change, as I would rather see it remain as it is. As I said in my previous post, the DR (my highest being 7) feels about as effective as the 52 AC I can muster on my cleric in high end content. It's a nice number, but the enemy still beats on my like a $2 hooker who is stealing from her pimp.

[paintedman]

In the example of the fighter and ballarina, yes, your calculations are pretty close to on par, but you are ignoring the fact that while the barb may be smiling about the ten hits, the fighter is grinning under helmet about only getting hit at all five times. Given the amount of damage that mobs put out these days, I think that it is a fair trade off to have high dr vs not getting hit as often at all.

However, the calculation about max dr is nine I believe.

-paintedman

[Kalanth]

You know, I always thought armor/shield adamantine DR stacked.


Nah, take a look next time you get a chance. You should see two DR/- lines. At least, thats how it showed last time I looked. It's the reason my cleric carries a Wooden Tower Shield instead of an Adamantine one.

[Dingo123]

In the example of the fighter and ballarina, yes, your calculations are pretty close to on par, but you are ignoring the fact that while the barb may be smiling about the ten hits, the fighter is grinning under helmet about only getting hit at all five times. Given the amount of damage that mobs put out these days, I think that it is a fair trade off to have high dr vs not getting hit as often at all.

However, the calculation about max dr is nine I believe.

-paintedman


At higher levels AC, apparently, becomes meaningless.

[JosephKell]

At least, thats how it showed last time I looked. It's the reason my cleric carries a Wooden Tower Shield instead of an Adamantine one.So the rust monsters don't eat it?

[Kalanth]

So the rust monsters don't eat it?

No, thats just a concern overall cause the cleric is a Warforged...

[JosephKell]

No, thats just a concern overall cause the cleric is a Warforged...I understand now... So the Tower Shield is a tray to serve the Warforged on. :D

All the problems of DDO are the result of power creep and poorly thought out designs for 3rd edition (which stemmed from previous editions). Mainly that Attack Bonus is a dynamic scaling value derived from level, weapon, attribute, and feats. But Armor Class is completely static based off attribute, feats, and equipment.

So to make characters feel dynamic, the developers gave us excessive access to magic items. Plus... come on, if we were using +1 weapons and armors at level 4, people would quit DDO. Getting new magic items is half the fun.

[Harbinder]

At higher levels AC, apparently, becomes meaningless.

Myth.

[Dingo123]

Myth.

Well it's a myth a whole lot of people believe in.

[paintedman]

Dingo, you just trying to stir the pot?

"Well it's a myth a whole lot of people believe in."

LOL, at any rate, I'll bite, I believe ac counts, 10 ac vs 60 ac, doubt a difference?

-paintedman

[Dingo123]

Dingo, you just trying to stir the pot?

"Well it's a myth a whole lot of people believe in."

LOL, at any rate, I'll bite, I believe ac counts, 10 ac vs 60 ac, doubt a difference?

-paintedman



When the BAB of the guys attacking you is 62...

not really.

[Eurytos]

DR is nice as it is. If you've ever done the Queen raid (legit, no exploits or safe spots) with a good DR spec tank, you would know. Here's my warforged tank at level 11 straight up tanking the DQ Raid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/radd2/GridDR.jpg

....of course this doesn't matter because no one does anything legit anymore

[paintedman]

10 ac, naked and no dex to speak of VS 60 AC, and you're telling me that there is no real difference. Tell ya what, I'll unarm my level 13 fighter and take him out and about in Giant Hold, then after the pink bar get about half way I'll re-arm him. I'll bet ya dollars to donuts that there is a large difference.

-paintedman

[Eurytos]

Um, AC is definately noticably better. Unless you have like 40-45ac like most people do, then it doesn't do ****. Once you're above 50 though you notice you take a lot less damage.

[Dingo123]

10 ac, naked and no dex to speak of VS 60 AC, and you're telling me that there is no real difference. Tell ya what, I'll unarm my level 13 fighter and take him out and about in Giant Hold, then after the pink bar get about half way I'll re-arm him. I'll bet ya dollars to donuts that there is a large difference.

-paintedman

Take him into a level 14 elite quest... then try it.

There's a reason barbs wear robes at that level.

[boldarblood]

10 ac, naked and no dex to speak of VS 60 AC, and you're telling me that there is no real difference. Tell ya what, I'll unarm my level 13 fighter and take him out and about in Giant Hold, then after the pink bar get about half way I'll re-arm him. I'll bet ya dollars to donuts that there is a large difference.

-paintedman

If your not breaking 50+ then AC does not matter imho.

[Aesop]

DR is nice as it is. If you've ever done the Queen raid (legit, no exploits or safe spots) with a good DR spec tank, you would know. Here's my warforged tank at level 11 straight up tanking the DQ Raid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/radd2/GridDR.jpg

....of course this doesn't matter because no one does anything legit anymore

I'm guessing that was Shield Blocking DR.

AS you appear to have DR 31 or so :)


Aesop

[Shade]

DR is useless. Just ask Barbarians.

I've played mainly barbarians since beta.. Id say DR works fine.

15 DR/- for 10 AP is very fair and works awesome in many cases.

It's not on par with PnP, its far far higher. In PnP a 14th lvl barbarian has a DR of 3/-, we get 5 times that.

[Aesop]

I've played mainly barbarians since beta.. Id say DR works fine.

15 DR/- for 10 AP is very fair and works awesome in many cases.

It's not on par with PnP, its far far higher. In PnP a 14th lvl barbarian has a DR of 3/-, we get 5 times that.

Is that a Boost or is that standing. Cause if that is standing then something is very wrong there


Aesop

[McSurlykins]

is a boost

[Tavok]

The DR/- is right on par with PnP and can be enhanced beyond those numbers with the enhancements. It is not intended to resist massive amounts of damage in any way. Really, it's a little bonus for the low level, and an after thought for the high level. I am happy with that, and would not want to see it change (though it may in PnP with 4th edition comming out).

Yea the only problem is that the mosters to-hit and damage is not on par with PnP, so why should the DR be?

[Aesop]

is a boost

yeah I was checking the possibilities

I can get a DR of 9/Adamantine by lvl 14 Standing but that's as high as I can get

Barbs can get DR 7/- fir lvl 14 and unless they get another Enhancment for it at 15 or 16 the next increase is not til 17. Then 20 ... so probably 1 more Enhancment along the way for a total of

DR 10/- at lvl 20 for the Barbs... although if they incorporate the Extra DR Feat then you can get a touch higher

Aesop

[Bombalo]

Guys the only place that AC is completely ineffective is the tor and raid on elite. Want proof go into PoP on elite and stand infront of one of the fighters. If he misses your more than 1 in 20 shoots on average your AC is helping. Now going up against the reaver...yeah AC probably doesnt matter but in most of the other quests even on elite AC helps. And there is still not a majority of barbarians that are wearing robes. Most of the elite barbarians still wear armor cause they know every little bit helps.

[Mhykke]

Most of the elite barbarians still wear armor cause they know every little bit helps.


Depends on where you're at for "every little bit" to help.

If you have a 2 handed weapon equipped, and your ac is, just pulling a number out, 30, then increasing that ac to, let's say, 33, on an elite end game quest, is absolutely meaningless. Mobs are hitting you on 2's either way you cut it.


When people say AC is meaningless, they're not exactly correct, or at least not giving the entire picture. Up to a certain point, AC doesn't play the factor it once did. What was respectable back in the day of mid 40s ac really doesn't cut it much today.

But if your AC is in the 55 range, then it very much still matters.

[Knightrose]

I have a 14 Fighter and 14 Barb. DR is FAR

FAR

From useless.

I love DR. Leave it alone.

[Shrazkil]

I don't know about Changing current numbers for say barbarians or enhancements, But simply allowing various forms to Stack would be sufficient.

At the very least, allow class/enhancement/race enhancements to stack with Spell DR.

[Eurytos]

I'm guessing that was Shield Blocking DR.

AS you appear to have DR 31 or so :)


Aesop

It is blocking DR. With me intimidating and blocking, everyone else is free to beat on her without worry.

Of course like I said, with the safe spot anyone can solo herwithout worry,,,

[GeneralDiomedes]

When the BAB of the guys attacking you is 62...

not really.

Which swing is that? High AC is still viable damage mitigation because the first swing will likely not have an attack bonus of 62. If there is a MOB who hits at that bonus on the first swing, then they are the exception, not the rule. Like a red named, for instance.

Having said that, a negative BAB progression would go a long ways to making AC a more viable damage mitigation strategy.

[Jundak]

Take him into a level 14 elite quest... then try it.

There's a reason barbs wear robes at that level.

They're cross-dressers? I knew there was something funny about them...

[Clerical]

unless we get some awsome new items for ac i think we may see 50 ac become useless when mod 5 hits us. As of right now 50 or higher is usefull in elite content.

[Sojourner]

Both DR and AC have their uses. But, they are fairly marginal unless your character is really working on it.

AC ->
40 for Gianthold
50 for Gianthold elite

Anything less than that, and it doesn't matter much. Mobs in gianthold normal seem to have around a +35 to +45 to-hit number (hard to get exact numbers, all you can do is stand there, let them swing at you and then calculate percentages).


DR ->
Every bit helps, but for most people it is rare to get above DR 5, if that. Over 10 swings, that would add up to 50 points. But, when mobs are doing 40 points of damage a swing, the difference between the cleric healing 400 points of damage and 350 points of damage is minimal, especially if a heal spell is going to cure around 380.


So, if you have an AC of 45 and a DR of 3, mobs are going to miss you a few itmes, and do a touch less damage when they hit you.

But, in order to really shine, you need to get your AC up around the 60 mark and your blocking DR up around the 30 mark. Put on a heavy fort item, max our your intimidate, and it doesn't matter if you have a AC or DR, you're going to have a pretty effective tank.

The AC tank would be more efficient than the DR tank, but the AC tank is equipment dependent.

I think max blocking DR without boosts is something like:
02 (Base)
07 (BAB/2)
05 (+5 Shield)
04 (Tower Shield)
03 (Shield Mastery Feat)
03 (Imp. Shield Mastery Feat)
03 (Dwaf Shield Mastery APs)
05 (Barb. DR)
---
32

[Knightrose]

Barbs can get DR7/- With Enhancements. 5base

WF with Adamantine Body can and Improved DR feat can get 6DR/Adamantine with Enhancements.

And anyone wearing, Stonemeld, Platemail of Giants or Golden Greaves can have a DR5/-

DR matters

So does Armor Class.

There's absolutely no room for argument on either. You've cooked up your own illusions if you think either is useless. You simply have not considered the right numbers to be affective. Or are plain ignorant.

[Chelsa]

There is room for argument and the ilusion is in thinking that there isn't.

You will get hit, no matter your AC. If you believe +50 is the end all then more power to you. If you believe high dps the same. You can have the maxed AC, DR or any other stat, and still get the snot beat out of you. This is a group game and its all about team work, not stats. Build the character like you want and understand its strength and weaknesses. If you can do that and find good team oriented groups you will be successful no matter what statics people throw at you.

[Casta]

If your a barb and blocking you can get up to about 40 dr, thats enough that things don't hit you for to much and with the amount of hp a barb can get the cleric will have no problems keeping you up. So if they change this for the average players who have 5-10 dr then the people who min max for dr will start become almost imposable to kill.

And even 5 damage every hit adds up to saving you from alot of damage, with greater resists your getting 30 dr and most stuff wont touch you.

[cforce]

WF with Adamantine Body can and Improved DR feat can get 6DR/Adamantine with Enhancements.


Actually, DR 9/Adamantine. You can take the Improved DR feat multiple times.

And, DR 9 certainly adds up. It's not going to make you invulnerable, by any means, but it ends up mitigating 1/4 -> 1/3 of incoming damage. Look at it this way: if everyone in a party was running with DR 9, it would be like giving the cleric an extra 1/3-1/2 of their spell point total in extra spell points. (4/3 to 3/2 of their original total).

On the AC front, I have to agree that reports of AC's death have been greatly exaggerated. Sure, there are a few Elite quests where you need 55-60 to be taking sustained aggro. However, there are definitely some of the level 14's on Elite where 45 will leave you plenty safe.

[Raithe]

There is room for argument and the ilusion is in thinking that there isn't.

You will get hit, no matter your AC. If you believe +50 is the end all then more power to you. If you believe high dps the same. You can have the maxed AC, DR or any other stat, and still get the snot beat out of you. This is a group game and its all about team work, not stats. Build the character like you want and understand its strength and weaknesses. If you can do that and find good team oriented groups you will be successful no matter what statics people throw at you.

I vote this post as the winner.

Well said.

[Aesop]

Barbs can get DR7/- With Enhancements. 5base

WF with Adamantine Body can and Improved DR feat can get 6DR/Adamantine with Enhancements.

And anyone wearing, Stonemeld, Platemail of Giants or Golden Greaves can have a DR5/-

DR matters

So does Armor Class.

There's absolutely no room for argument on either. You've cooked up your own illusions if you think either is useless. You simply have not considered the right numbers to be affective. Or are plain ignorant.




WF with Adamantine Body can take Improved DAmage Reduction Feat Multiple times.


aesop

[MtnLion]

This issue is around because instead of huge masses of mobs DDO must have a few mobs that deal damage on the same scale. The mobs that are encountered in DDO must hit as hard as several mobs in PnP making DR far less useful in DDO than PnP.

[Slayer918]

I think max blocking DR without boosts is something like:
02 (Base)
07 (BAB/2)
05 (+5 Shield)
04 (Tower Shield)
03 (Shield Mastery Feat)
03 (Imp. Shield Mastery Feat)
03 (Dwaf Shield Mastery APs)
05 (Barb. DR)
---
32

34... madstone shield is base 6 shield blocking DR

[darkgolem]

Dr is a funny thing.

A little dr is not that useful, though it still is useful. Heck, my wizard noticed a huge difference with items of invulnerability compared to not (robe).


But a lot of DR is very powerful.

Barbarian DR, I imagine, isn't so powerful, though the clickie enhancement probably is.

But my warforged fighter paladin has 6 dr at level 9 and it makes healing him cheap. At high dr's, it will make a big difference also.

Also, keep in mind that the effectiveness of DR is multiplicative with high armor class. That is, High armor class by itself is good. High dr by itself is ok. but ok X good = Great.. You not only get hit less often, but you also take much less per hit.

So while DR itself usually isn't a big deal once your are past your waterfront/harbor days, if you can have a big ac and DR your all set. Add in Heavy fort and you are very hard to kill, aside from energy attacks.

So maybe the OP should concentrate on AC first, and see how to work in DR after that. My fighter certainly enjoys it.

[Knightrose]

Heh, look it's very romantic to keep calling D&D a team-based game.

But the fact is in DDO, unless forced to have assitance, you can solo any quest.

So pick your poison.

But DR and AC do not need to be buffed. They need only be scaled for future level adjustments.

My 2pyreals.