What build would you vote for?

[jarlaxle_dourden]

I have these two builds ... One human Barb/Fighter and one Dwarf barb/fighter.

Obviously the big bonus for thre dwarfs are HP and a little extra con ... but because of all the toughness points spent I don't have anything left for the hardy and strength rages.

Also, I have +4 Fearsome Mith FP RR Human ... which is really making me smack at the idea of the human build.

Also with the extra feat with the human I was able to take power attack ... I was not able to take that with the dwarf build ... but still ... more than 60 HP more with the Dwarf build ... wow ...

Let me know what you think ....

Here are the two builds:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Human barbfighter
Level 14 Chaotic Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 348
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 4
Will: 3

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 17 17 18
Dexterity 11 11 11
Constitution 18 21 25
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 9

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 0 0 0
Bluff -1 -1 -1
Concentration 4 7 7
Diplomacy -1 -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1 -1
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 0 0 0
Intimidate 3 16 16
Jump 7 20 20
Listen 3 14 14
Move Silently 0 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1 -1
Search -1 -1 -1
Spot -1 -1 -1
Swim 7 20 20
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III

Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III

Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Rage
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III

Level 14 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution II





Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

dwarf barbfighter
Level 14 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 412
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 4
Will: 3

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 18 18 19
Dexterity 11 11 11
Constitution 19 22 27
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 6 6 6

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 0 0 4
Bluff -2 -2 -2
Concentration 4 8 8
Diplomacy -2 -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2 -2
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 0 0 0
Intimidate 1 14 14
Jump 7 19 19
Listen 2 2 2
Move Silently 0 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1 -1
Search -1 -1 1
Spot -1 -1 -1
Swim 7 17 17
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Listen (+3)
Skill: Swim (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Dwarf)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III

Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II

Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III

Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Rage
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Level 14 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV

[Shade]

Well sorry I refuse to vote.

Too hard to suggest a bad (human) or horrible (dwarf) build. To you. Really too many people trying to do something weird lately and messing it up.

Just make maldini build if you want human, or my build if you want dwarf, theres no benefit in multiclassing.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

The two levels of fighter give me two extra feats ... but I am interested in hearing why you think both the builds are bad.

[Girevik]

Well, I didn't really post to vote, I posted to question.

You stated the Dwarf didn't have room for the Power Attack feat, yet you took the Power Critical feat. Why? Do you really think Power Critical is a more useful feat, and if so, why?

I would have picked Power Attack first and used Power Critical as the "swing" feat. (Or even Luck of Heroes or some such.)

P.S. Personally, I like Dwarves. Not for the great enhancements (though those are nice), but for the camera angles when playing them. But, that plate looks nice, so go for the Human.

[Shade]

The two levels of fighter give me two extra feats ... but I am interested in hearing why you think both the builds are bad.

These builds are clearly about DPS, fighter levels just sacrifice that.
Massive drop in DPS due to loss of critical rage II. Its well worth 2 feats imo.

[Blazer]

Yeah what Shade said. But to dive a bit deeper into your builds, you spent feats on Toughness and Weapon Focus: Slashing. If there was any class that didn't need to spend feats on boosting HP or to-hit, it's the barbarian. You are already the HP kings and - when raging - you are the to-hit kings also...40ish STR will do that for you. I fail to see how selecting these feats helps you that much.

[Girevik]

Yeah what Shade said. But to dive a bit deeper into your builds, you spent feats on Toughness and Weapon Focus: Slashing. If there was any class that didn't need to spend feats on boosting HP or to-hit, it's the barbarian. You are already the HP kings and - when raging - you are the to-hit kings also...40ish STR will do that for you. I fail to see how selecting these feats helps you that much.

You too!

Why did you pick on Weapon Focus and not Power Critical? (The compendium states Power Critical is per weapon type, is this true?)

Isn't a +1 to Hit and to confirm criticals with any slashing weapon likely to be of more use than only a +4 to confirm criticals only when using a Great Axe?

[Taerdra]

To everyone's point, a max Barb DPS build is actually quite simple:

1) MAX STR from the beginning.
2) KEEP CON around 14-16 depending on race to maximize rage length.
3) Max Rage enhancements.
4) TAKE PA and the Barb enhancements. I forgot to turn this on the other day... the fighter in the group asked how he was keeping up (within 20% of my kill count)... after I turned it on, I tripled him. Enough said.
5) Take all Two-handed weapons feats ASAP.
6) Critical Rage II. I literally didn't enhance at lvl 13, so I could add this on level up for 14. It is that good.
7) Grab all Greater Bane weapons you can. Have a basic HB of PG or a <Elemental Burst> of Maiming as you're standby.
8) DO NOT Multi-Class.

Yes, you may not like cookie cutter... but if you want to be DPS King this is the way to go.

[Mad_Bombardier]

You too!

Why did you pick on Weapon Focus and not Power Critical? (The compendium states Power Critical is per weapon type, is this true?)

Isn't a +1 to Hit and to confirm criticals with any slashing weapon likely to be of more use than only a +4 to confirm criticals only when using a Great Axe?I believe Power Critical is now applied to all weapon types. The Compendium is (once again) in error.

[Blazer]

You too!

Why did you pick on Weapon Focus and not Power Critical? (The compendium states Power Critical is per weapon type, is this true?)

Isn't a +1 to Hit and to confirm criticals with any slashing weapon likely to be of more use than only a +4 to confirm criticals only when using a Great Axe?

As Mad_B pointed out above, Power Critical now applies to all weapon types, making it slighly more useful. Regardless, Power Critical, Weapon Focus, Toughness - all unnecessary on a barbarian. Taerdra points out what to do in order to make a max DPS barbarian. Building one is not that hard...equipping one and playing it well is much more difficult.

[Stonebread]

I think it can be worth taking 2 lvls of Fighter IF you're going to do something interesting with the feats. Stunning blow comes to mind.

And if you're like me, and HATE failing saves, you might rearrange the feats to take Iron Will or Luck of Heros. I'd rather be held/dancing/feared/commanded 10% less than do 10% more damage. Seriously.

You aren't going to gimp yourself by missing out on 1 point of critical range.

[Sojourner]

Power Critical vs. Critical Rage -- In general, I would say that if you are hitting mobs all the time, you are going to get more out of critical rage. If you can confirm every possible crit you roll because your to-hit is so high, then you want to roll as many possible crits as you can. If you are having trouble hitting and sometimes only hitting on possible crits, then the power critical to help confirm the crits will be more use.

Working the numbers,
Assuming Crit Rage I, compare a Greate Axe and a Falchion:

To-hit = 6, crit-range = 18-20
Crits = 11.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 14.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 15.00% of the time
To-hit = 15, crit-range = 18-20
Crits = 4.50% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 7.50% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 6.00% of the time
To-hit = 6, crit-range = 14-20
Crits = 26.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 33.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 30.00% of the time
To-hit = 15, crit-range = 14-20
Crits = 10.50% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 17.50% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 12.00% of the time


So - If you're running with a weapon that has a high crit range, you're better with Power Crit. If you're running with a a weapon with a low crit rage it depends on the mobs you're facing. If you hit them all the time you're slightly better with crit rage. If you hit them some time you're slightly better with power crit.

I wouldn't have expected Power Crit feat to be better than Crit Rage enhancement, but there it is. Makes a very strong case for fighter-1/barb-13. Especially with the next level cap letting you get both power crit and crit rage II.



A couple other thoughts on your builds:

* Stay away from intimidate as a skill. Unless you're specializing on being a DR tank (doesn't look like either of these are) you don't want to draw any more aggro than necessary. Barbs have no AC, so mobs are going to chew them up. With our HPs we can take it for awhile, but no need drawing any more attention to yourself than you have to.

* There are going to be some changes to how Spot and Listen work in mod 5. But, I'm not sure how much faith I'd put in listen.

* I'd recommend putting your Listen and Intimidate points into Balance and Spot.

* For the Dwarf build - You're going to want much more Extend and Extra rages. Dump some of the Toughness and CON feats, try to get both Extend and Extra up to III. Your to-hit is already going to be pretty high, you can probably dump the Axe Attack enhancements also if you need more APs.

[Taerdra]

So - If you're running with a weapon that has a high crit range, you're better with Power Crit. If you're running with a a weapon with a low crit rage it depends on the mobs you're facing. If you hit them all the time you're slightly better with crit rage. If you hit them some time you're slightly better with power crit.

I wouldn't have expected Power Crit feat to be better than Crit Rage enhancement, but there it is. Makes a very strong case for fighter-1/barb-13. Especially with the next level cap letting you get both power crit and crit rage II.


While I don't disagree with your numbers -- haven't run them myself -- I think you're drawing an inaccurate conclusion.

Barbs do not have a hard time hitting nor do they have a hard time confirming crits. Based on your own assessment, crit rage II is better than power critical if that is the case. Therefore, if you are talking about lvl 14, you're better off prioritizing Crit Rage than Power Crit. Yes, you can say it makes a better case for F1/B13, but the analysis isn't that conclusive because the preconditions are what they are: barbs don't have a hard time hitting or confirming.

The other point is that fundamentally you can have BOTH anyway. The question is more of a what's better choice at level 12, Power Crit or something else like G2HF or Great Cleave? The question becomes even more moot once the cap increase is included as a Barb 14+x/Fy can be readily had. I think then it is more a question of what's better: Barb 20 benefits or Fighter levels.

Again, not saying the numbers aren't valid, just pointing out how the reality of the context may change how relevant it is.

[Roguewiz]

If I had to choose between the two builds, I'd take the Human one. The HP difference isn't that big honestly. Anything passed 300 is a mana sponge :). Besides, the human build has more DPS than the dwarf.


You aren't going to gimp yourself by missing out on 1 point of critical range.
Finally, somebody that can think outside the box :)

[Renegade66]

To everyone's point, a max Barb DPS build is actually quite simple:

1) MAX STR from the beginning.
2) KEEP CON around 14-16 depending on race to maximize rage length.
3) Max Rage enhancements.
4) TAKE PA and the Barb enhancements. I forgot to turn this on the other day... the fighter in the group asked how he was keeping up (within 20% of my kill count)... after I turned it on, I tripled him. Enough said.
5) Take all Two-handed weapons feats ASAP.
6) Critical Rage II. I literally didn't enhance at lvl 13, so I could add this on level up for 14. It is that good.
7) Grab all Greater Bane weapons you can. Have a basic HB of PG or a <Elemental Burst> of Maiming as you're standby.
8) DO NOT Multi-Class.

Yes, you may not like cookie cutter... but if you want to be DPS King this is the way to go.


Well stated and pretty simple.

Dwarf is very nice for the axe bonuses. I like having Stunning Blow and went human to get the extra feat. Sword of Shadows holds its own even against the axe wielding dwarfs.

The best however is the Jellybean build. You must have the gear though (i.e. w/p rapiers, smiting rapiers, banishing rapiers, etc.).

In short, elven barbarian, all twf feats, stunning blow and no pwr attack reqd. Elven rapier to hit enhancements and enchanment resistance is nice. No match for w/p killing speed (crit on 13), especially on elite. Also, better aggro management over glancing blows delivered by my THF barb.
Good example was a Madstone Elite run awhile back. Two fighters and rogue combined for 10 kills. Jellybean had 154 (twin disrupting rapiers btw too).
With up to 45 STR, straight DPS for Reds is solid. However, cannot match up to THF/PA for high DR red bosses that cannot have their DPS bypassed (e.g. Stormreaver).

[Renegade66]

You aren't going to gimp yourself by missing out on 1 point of critical range.

This is like saying you're not going to gimp yourself by removing a thumb. Do the math or see it in action. Multiclassing your Barbarian is gimping it. I've yet to see a mutliclass Barbarian even approach 50% of the kills. Typically more like 10%.

[Sojourner]

This is like saying you're not going to gimp yourself by removing a thumb. Do the math or see it in action. Multiclassing your Barbarian is gimping it. I've yet to see a mutliclass Barbarian even approach 50% of the kills. Typically more like 10%.


The math is about 4 posts up.

If you're losing Crit Rage II but picking up Power Crit feat, the difference is pretty minor. In some situations you'll do slightly more damage, in some situations you'll do slightly less damage.






While I don't disagree with your numbers -- haven't run them myself -- I think you're drawing an inaccurate conclusion.

Barbs do not have a hard time hitting nor do they have a hard time confirming crits. Based on your own assessment, crit rage II is better than power critical if that is the case. Therefore, if you are talking about lvl 14, you're better off prioritizing Crit Rage than Power Crit. Yes, you can say it makes a better case for F1/B13, but the analysis isn't that conclusive because the preconditions are what they are: barbs don't have a hard time hitting or confirming.


Yeah, I'll agree that it is pretty rare for Barb's to need to roll much in order to land a hit. Betwen STR, Rage, and Buffs, most things short of a fumble are a hit. I did both the "need a 6 to hit" and the "need a 15 to hit" just to show the typical range for most players against most mobs. The Barb is most likely to be in the "need a 6 to hit" group.

So, for that "I hit on a 6 or better" barbarian -- if you have a small crit-range weapon like a greataxe, then the difference between Crit Rage II and Power critical is pretty minor -- You're going to crit an extra 0.75% of the time. Or, you get one extra crit every 140 swings of the axe. Not exactly a glaring difference between Crit Rage and Power Crit.

If you have a large crit-range weapon (SoS, Falchion, TWF Rapier, whatever) you're going to do slightly better with Power Crit instead of that Crit Rage II. 1 extra crit every 30 swings. That may be noticeable, but not hugely.


And, of course, yeah - having both will be better than having to pick between them.

I think really it comes down to how long do you think you'll be playing your barb and what are you willing to give up for it. Our next level cap should take us to 16, so what do you plan on taking for your level 15 feat. If you take that 1-fighter, you're definitely giving up Mighty Rage at 20 in order to get the feat sooner. But, do you plan on playing this character all the way to 20?

This are pretty much personal preference choices.

[Shade]

Thats the stupidest math i've ever seen.

Not only is the logic flawed and dumb, but what you compared is pointless. What were saying is dumb is getting feats vs crit rage II.. You compared only crit rage I for some ******** reason.

And even the most gimped barbarian in the game never ever needs to roll a 15 to hit, thats just stupid.

Hell I never need to roll more then a 2, with max power attack penalty. Only time i've ever seen a miss was vs some elite raid bosses with power attack on and no bard buffs.. Even then I just turn off power attack and im still critting on a 2.

[Taerdra]

Sojourner:
I started to try and follow your calculations, and I am a little slow or something because I can't see how Power Critical improves your chance to critical.

As I understand it, the combat math on criticals works like:
1) You must roll within the critical range of weapon to have a chance to confirm a critical. = Improved Crit
2) You then roll again with various other modifiers to see if you have confirmed the critical hit. = Power Crit

If that's the case, then (again, my limited math skills) Power Crit is a modifier on the critical rage that cannot increase the critical range. Power Crit can only increase the % of confirmed crits or the likelihood of a critical after the initial critical has been rolled.

So, in your 6 to hit case, I am at a loss to see how Power Crit can increase your criticals from 11.25% to 15.00%. It can only contribute to maximizing the 11.25%.

Do you see my question? What am I missing here?

[Girevik]

Sojourner:
I started to try and follow your calculations, and I am a little slow or something because I can't see how Power Critical improves your chance to critical.

As I understand it, the combat math on criticals works like:
1) You must roll within the critical range of weapon to have a chance to confirm a critical. = Improved Crit
2) You then roll again with various other modifiers to see if you have confirmed the critical hit. = Power Crit

If that's the case, then (again, my limited math skills) Power Crit is a modifier on the critical rage that cannot increase the critical range. Power Crit can only increase the % of confirmed crits or the likelihood of a critical after the initial critical has been rolled.

So, in your 6 to hit case, I am at a loss to see how Power Crit can increase your criticals from 11.25% to 15.00%. It can only contribute to maximizing the 11.25%.

Do you see my question? What am I missing here?

I'll try to tackle the math and see what he is thinking.

To-hit = 6, crit-range = 14-20
Crits = 26.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 33.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 30.00% of the time

Neither Ability in Play:
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-13 Normal Hit (40% of the time), and
14-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 35% of the time), which breaks down to:
25% x 35% Normal Hit (8.75%) and
75% x 35% Critical Hit (26.25%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 40% + 8.75% = 48.75%, and
Critical Hit = 26.25%.

Now, we up our confirmation rolls by +4 with Power Critical and recalculate:
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-13 Normal Hit (40% of the time), and
14-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 35% of the time), which breaks down to:
5% x 35% Normal Hit (1.75%) and
95% x 35% Critical Hit (33.25%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 40% + 1.75% = 41.75%, and
Critical Hit = 33.25%.

Now we start over, but we try going from Crit Rage I to Crit Rage II (presumable seeing whether it is worth it to multiclass for the Power Critical feat):
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-12 Normal Hit (35% of the time), and
13-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 40% of the time), which breaks down to:
25% x 40% Normal Hit (10.0%) and
75% x 40% Critical Hit (30.0%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 35% + 10% = 45%, and
Critical Hit = 30.0%.

His numbers check. I think what you might be missing is the difference between a Critical Threat and a Confirmed Critical. That is where the Power Critical comes in.

(Note: I am not necessarily jumping in to agree with him, I am just checking the math under the assumptions provided.)

Oops! I checked the wrong set of numbers above. :(

To-hit = 6, crit-range = 18-20
Crits = 11.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 14.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 15.00% of the time

Neither Ability in Play:
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-17 Normal Hit (60% of the time), and
18-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 15% of the time), which breaks down to:
25% x 15% Normal Hit (3.75%) and
75% x 15% Critical Hit (11.25%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 60% + 3.75% = 63.75%, and
Critical Hit = 11.25%.

Now, we up our confirmation rolls by +4 with Power Critical and recalculate:
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-17 Normal Hit (60% of the time), and
18-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 15% of the time), which breaks down to:
5% x 15% Normal Hit (0.75%) and
95% x 15% Critical Hit (14.25%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 60% + 0.75% = 60.75%, and
Critical Hit = 14.25%.

Now we start over, but we try going from Crit Rage I to Crit Rage II (presumable seeing whether it is worth it to multiclass for the Power Critical feat):
1-5 Miss (25% of the time),
6-16 Normal Hit (55% of the time), and
17-20 Maybe a Critical Hit (remaining 20% of the time), which breaks down to:
25% x 20% Normal Hit (5.0%) and
75% x 20% Critical Hit (15.0%).

So,
Miss = 25%,
Normal Hit = 55% + 5% = 60%, and
Critical Hit = 15.0%.

[Taerdra]

Got it. I was thinking the initial number didn't have the misses in it yet. Thank you.

The problem is Barbs are never struggling to hit on only a 6 or higher. Using Shade's missing on a 1 or a 2, the analysis would look like:

18-20 = 15% Crit
Reg Confirm on 3-20 = 13.5% Crit
Power Crit on 3-20+4 = 14.25% Crit

17-20 = 20% Crit
Reg Confirm on 3-20 = 18% Crit

Same is true on the Falchion example:
14-20 = 35% Crit
Reg Confirm on 3-20 = 31.5% Crit
Power Crit on 3-20+4 = 33.25% Crit

13-20 = 40% Crit
Reg Confirm on 3-20 = 36.00% Crit

On short crit range weapons, Crit Rage 2 gives you 26% more criticals than Power Crit. On large crit range, the gap is smaller at ~ 8%. The fact that you create 26% more often at x3 on a greataxe means a lot. I appreciate the math, but as I said it overstates the conclusions and misses the reality of barbs versus other classes.

[Stonebread]

This is like saying you're not going to gimp yourself by removing a thumb. Do the math or see it in action. Multiclassing your Barbarian is gimping it. I've yet to see a mutliclass Barbarian even approach 50% of the kills. Typically more like 10%.

I don't really care about the math even though I do believe a max DPS build would take Critical Rage II. I'm just saying that there are other things to consider besides DPS (shocking I know!). You'll still be a powerhouse without that enhancement.

Heck, I might even suggest 2 lvls of rogue for Evasion and skills! Totally Gimp! Probably couldn't even run PoP elite!

:rolleyes:

[Sojourner]

Thats the stupidest math i've ever seen.

LOL - "Yer usin math!! Yer Stupid!!" Now there is a barbarian counter-argument if I ever heard one.




Not only is the logic flawed and dumb, but what you compared is pointless. What were saying is dumb is getting feats vs crit rage II.. You compared only crit rage I for some ******** reason.

And even the most gimped barbarian in the game never ever needs to roll a 15 to hit, thats just stupid.

Hell I never need to roll more then a 2, with max power attack penalty. Only time i've ever seen a miss was vs some elite raid bosses with power attack on and no bard buffs.. Even then I just turn off power attack and im still critting on a 2.

Yes, we're comparing a feat to an enhancement. Not normally done, but it is applicable here because you can't take the enhancement if you multiclass, but you can take the feat.

And, no, we're not comparing PowerCrit to CritRage I, we're assuming the build has CR I and has to decide between pure barb for CritRage II and a level of fighter for Power Crit. The CritRage I is built into the assumption because a Fighter-1/Barb-13 build would take the CritRage I.

If you're unable to keep up with the math and conversation, don't feel like you have to post just to be able to say something.




Got it. I was thinking the initial number didn't have the misses in it yet. Thank you.

The problem is Barbs are never struggling to hit on only a 6 or higher. Using Shade's missing on a 1 or a 2, the analysis would look like:

..

On short crit range weapons, Crit Rage 2 gives you 26% more criticals than Power Crit. On large crit range, the gap is smaller at ~ 8%. The fact that you create 26% more often at x3 on a greataxe means a lot. I appreciate the math, but as I said it overstates the conclusions and misses the reality of barbs versus other classes.

Not 26% more often, or even 8% more often. If you really are hitting most everything on a 2 or more, then you're critting about 5% more often with Power Crit II.

Not sure I believe that every mob is a 2 to hit, on every swing in your progression. Think in Gianthold their average AC is in the 30-50 range depending on mob type and difficulty setting. Maldini posting to-hit numbers with his build, in the range of 31 or more before buffs. So, yes, a 2 will hit on a number of swings. But, on elite there are also mobs you're needing a 10 to hit on your first swing.

Best case numbers for CritRage is a 2 or better hits the mob.

To-hit = 2, crit-range = 18-20
Crits = 14.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 14.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 19.00% of the time
To-hit = 2, crit-range = 14-20
Crits = 33.25% of the time
Crits w/Power Crit = 33.25% of the time
Crits w/Crit Rage = 38.00% of the time


Take the numbers for what they are --- In gianthold missions, a pure barbarian doesn't have a huge advantage over a 13/1 multiclass. In mod 5, who knows if that will swing one way or another, since we don't know what mob AC will be yet.

But, either way, the differences are pretty minor. Not enough to say "if you don't build this way, you're gimped."

[Taerdra]

19% is actually 26% better than 14.25% (19%/14.25% - 1 = +26%). That math is indisputable.

Again, I never said someone was gimp. I think Barbs are one of the best classes at the game. I said that the barb w/o Crit Rage II is not doing nearly the same amount of damage. My point has always been you were overstating or drawing the wrong conclusions from your analysis. I stand by that statement.

[Sojourner]

19% is actually 26% better than 14.25% (19%/14.25% - 1 = +26%). That math is indisputable.



Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure where the 26 had come from.

[Taerdra]

I don't really care about the math even though I do believe a max DPS build would take Critical Rage II. I'm just saying that there are other things to consider besides DPS (shocking I know!). You'll still be a powerhouse without that enhancement.

Heck, I might even suggest 2 lvls of rogue for Evasion and skills! Totally Gimp! Probably couldn't even run PoP elite!

:rolleyes:

Just wanted to say that I was only trying to discuss the DPS build. There are other good ways to play a barb. I wasn't trying to comment about those as I haven't played one, though a barb-base evasion/batman build is on my list of things to do.

[Maldini]

Maldini posting to-hit numbers with his build, in the range of 31 or more before buffs.


42 Strength = +16 or 46 Strength Double Madstoned = +18

+16/+18 Strength
+5 Weapon/+7 with +3 Greater Bane Weapon
+14 BAB
+1 Battle Coin
+1 Haste Potions

So you're looking at +37 - +41 depending on if you don't use a million clickies before you run in. Bard Songs and other boosts buff this up over 50 which is nice since barbs take a big penalty from Power Attack.