Battle Bard Build

[Karethon]

This is a tanking bard build I came up with that. I've gotten the build up to level 10, and I'm still debating whether to take bard or another level of barbarian at 14. Currently leaning toward bard, for the greater heroism. I'm hoping to get +6 items for Strength, Constitution, and Charisma, to further enhance the abilities of the build.

Questions and comments welcome.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Neutral Good Human Male
(1 Barbarian \ 13 Bard)
Hit Points: 138
Spell Points: 480
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 9
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 12 12
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 20


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 5 17
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 6 18
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 1
Intimidate 5 15
Jump 7 22
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 7 21
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 5
Tumble 5 17
Use Magic Device 7 22

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Least Dragonmark of Passage
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 2 (Barbarian)

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 4 (Bard)

Level 5 (Bard)

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

Level 7 (Bard)

Level 8 (Bard)

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Passage

Level 10 (Bard)

Level 11 (Bard)

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 13 (Bard)

Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Warchanter I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

[Lifespawn]

your limiting the build i think powerattack is great but best used with a 2 hander drop the kopesh feat and use a slashing 2 hander

[A_Sheep]

I'm a huge fan of extend. I can't imagine bard life without it.

About the decision concerning barbarian: I'd much favor 1 level of fighter or staying pure bard. Level 14 grants another level of improved inspire courage, +1 to hit and damage for the whole party. I don't see how the limited amount of rage (which is +2 to hit and damage as well as other benefits) you'd get would make up for a constant +1 to hit and damage.

The Barbarian Rages (of which you'd only have 2) cut your spellcasting out, so you'd need your haste to last longer than your rage.

It does have an attractive burst appeal, but I'd think the extra fighter feat would outweigh the extra barbarian hit points. I guess barb also gives you barbarian power attack 1.

Pure Bard would still be my vote for a sword and board bard.

[Quartzite]

your limiting the build i think powerattack is great but best used with a 2 hander drop the kopesh feat and use a slashing 2 hander

Just pretend you are spending 1 feat to get a 5/- DR song. I think that's worth it for a defensive build.

[Karethon]

I came up with this build on a whim, as a way to incorporate a Dragonmark with the Warchanter specialty. And that left me with a few points that can be debated either way. The responses include some of them, so let me address them from my point of view:


your limiting the build i think powerattack is great but best used with a 2 hander drop the kopesh feat and use a slashing 2 hander

You are correct, using Power Attack is somewhat limited on this build. Keep in mind though, this is a Bard that doesn't start with an 18 strength. In normal quests close to level, Power Attack works fine, higher than that and I start to see more difficulty hitting, especially if I end up in a primary tank position for a bit. After I get some stat gear and a strength tome, it might be different, but for now I can't run with PA on full time. Also, as Quartzite mentioned, it is a prerequisite for Warchanter. I also happen to like the damage I'm getting with a khopesh now, next level that should be even better once I get Improved Critical: Slashing.


I'm a huge fan of extend. I can't imagine bard life without it.

...
Pure Bard would still be my vote for a sword and board bard.

You have some valid points. I already have a pure bard (ranged build) that has extend. This build is intended to be as much of a deviation from the other as possible, at least for now. At 15th I will probably take extend, as it will be nice with extended displacement, rage, and haste. My long term expectation is to end up 16 bard/4 barbarian, right now I'm not sure when the other barbarian levels will come in.

Taking fighter over barbarian would mean that a portion of the benefits from warchanter would be lost, same with pure bard. Call it "greedy", but if an enhancement gives you an additional use of an ability you can't access, what is the point of taking the enhancement? Sure it does other things, but what other enhancement do you take for 2/3 of the benefit? The increased movement speed is nice, and coupled with the Mark of Passage I don't need a striding item.

Right now I use the barbarian rage like others use the Mark of Shadow, a nice boost for named bosses. Once all of the other buffs are in place, enter rage and head in. If we don't have anyone else that can cast an extended haste, I can always drink potions of haste until the rage is over.

[skraus1]

I am not sure about taking the 3 dragonmarked feats ona bard. I mean you get DD as a spell, and can use teleport with UMD. Thus, I don't really see the benefit as compared to other feat you could be taking like wf, toughness and extend.

[CSFurious]

if you plan on fighting, you need more hitpoints

i would say you need at least 250 & that includes all of your buffs & any items you use on the build

haste & blur/displacement are great, but you need to be able to "take a licking & keep on ticking" imo to survive at end game

[~NakarJovane]

if you plan on fighting, you need more hitpoints

i would say you need at least 250 & that includes all of your buffs & any items you use on the build

haste & blur/displacement are great, but you need to be able to "take a licking & keep on ticking" imo to survive at end game

i agree... if you plan on getting up in the front-lines and taking advantage of your barbarian lvl, you should do everything you can for more hit points

[Impaqt]

Its been said, but the Dragonmarks are what hursts this build... ER and Teleport should be easily UMDable for a Bard... DD is a Class Spell.....

Replace the Dragonamarks with THF,ITHF,Extend and Replace Kopesh with. Well. I dunno. Mental Toughness Maybe?

[Karethon]

I'm not sure where folks got the impression that the build has 3 dragonmark feats, but that is incorrect. It does not have the greater mark. DD is a class spell, but there were other 4th level spells I would rather have and will use with more frequency.

As for the hit points, the build listed does not include a Con and/or greater false life item or a +2 tome, which would be available at end game. It also does not calculate in bonuses from rage, bard song, or greater heroism. The total might not hit 250 without temporary HP counted in, but this is not a fighter replacement. The character works well teamed with a fighter or barbarian.

I might juggle some feats later, after running more of the GH elite and capping, but for now the current build is working well and fun to play.

[Cirlandir]

Nothing benefits a party more than Inspire Courage. Thus the 1 lvl of Barbarian is all you should take. That will allow you to take Insp Courage 3 and be able to cast Greater Hero. Now if only you would get rid of the silly dragonmarks and get extend spell this would be a great build.

Too late now but why oh why waste INT on this guy?!?!?!?!

I agree you don't need, and shouldn't go with THF. I hate the pre-reqs for Warchanter. If you 2HF then you draw more aggro on the glancing blows and as a "squishy" tank you take a beating.

I haven't built him yet...but my feat selection:
lvl 1: PA, Extend
lvl 3: Khopesh (sword & Board style)
Lvl 6: WF-Slash
I am warchanter hear me roar
Lvl 9: Toughness (or SF-UMD for Tensers)
I am squishy need more HP
Lvl 12: Imp Crit

[Impaqt]

Questions and comments welcome.


Guess Not really eh?

If your having Fun then Have fun..... If you post your build here for "Questions and comments" Expect to get some.

[Karethon]

Nothing benefits a party more than Inspire Courage. Thus the 1 lvl of Barbarian is all you should take. That will allow you to take Insp Courage 3 and be able to cast Greater Hero. Now if only you would get rid of the silly dragonmarks and get extend spell this would be a great build.

Too late now but why oh why waste INT on this guy?!?!?!?!

I agree you don't need, and shouldn't go with THF. I hate the pre-reqs for Warchanter. If you 2HF then you draw more aggro on the glancing blows and as a "squishy" tank you take a beating.



For level 14, I have pretty much settled on Bard, but I do plan to take more levels of Barbarian in the future - at least it's my current thinking, but that is subject to change.

The decision to go with a 10 INT was for skills. I wanted to have one "social" skill that I was at least slightly good at, and with the bonus from Warchanter, opted for Intimidate. That combined with the other skills I wanted necessitated the 10 INT. Could have pushed the starting DEX up to a 14 instead, which would not be a bad thing.

I know a lot of people don't like the Dragonmarks, especially in build discussions, but it is working for now. I am considering trading out the DD feat, most likely for extend - leaving me with only the scrolls I loot. It's hard to express my reasoning behind not wanting to do so - especially without sounding defensive or argumentative (in a text format). I think that the dragonmarks lend a certain flavor to the character, and some are actually useful (IMO, at least).

[Cirlandir]

One other thing....grab the Barbarian sprint boost! Nothing better than getting to the top speed in the game :D

Thanks for posting this build Karethon.

[Karethon]

One other thing....grab the Barbarian sprint boost! Nothing better than getting to the top speed in the game :D

Thanks for posting this build Karethon.

The sprint boost is something I really would like to try. I plan to do a full respec of my enhancements close to cap and would love to find a way to fit at least one tier of it in.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Baervan]

Dragonmarks and that exotic weap feat don't help your build out IMO.

[Karethon]

Dragonmarks and that exotic weap feat don't help your build out IMO.

So....what would you take in their place?

[Baervan]

So....what would you take in their place?

Just my 2 cents but looking over your guy you placed quite a few skill points towards intimidation. I'd capitalize on all the attention you're capable of drawing and take Cleave and Toughness feats as replacements. For the third replacement, Extend Spell is always a handy feat to have and you'd most likely use it more frequently than your Expeditious Retreat or Dimension Door Dragonmarks combined. I agree with Impaqt that a you can always UMD scrolls if the need arises for Dimension Door.

[hazur]

Greetings,

Well to get straight to the point, I would go with two handers on this build. You're really not going to get a super AC with a bard, so I would rely more on the wonders of displacement. This would allow you to switch out your kopesh feat for Extend Spell. Where you will be hitting things, I imagine its best not to lose those buffs too quickly. Personally I would also ditch the dragonmarks. I think they are neat and all, but you can always use scrolls, and I usually have DD as a spell on my bards...I always seem to have a level four slot open for it. Seeing as I use it a lot for wonderful tricks and escapes, I prefer to have it as a spell anyway. OKAY, so what can you get with the ditched dragonmark feat holes! Well, of course Skill Focus: UMD is always great. You can also pick up the 2 enchantment focus feats for added crowd control power. Then of course there's the mental toughness feats that would allow you to cast many DD's or whatever you wanted! Also I don't think you really need the weapon focus feat. You will have plenty to hit with all your buffs. That would leave you open to grab SF: UMD as well as both enchantment feats if you wanted. Either that or you could pick up the THF feats for the extra splash damage. Personally if I were to make a bardbarian I would make it a dwarf so I could do crazy things like get a toughness feat that's worth about 65 HP. I'm no fan of the whole HP craze, and I will tell you from thousands of hours of bard experience that a 200 hp bard with the proper buffs can survive end game content if you pay attention, however, more hp allows for a slower reaction time. Have fun with it!

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Typical Bard Feats, these are the ones on 99% of builds. All of these feats are better than the dragon mark selections.

CC Caster Feats:
SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment
Heighten

Misc Feats:
Extend
SF UMD
MT
Toughness (Really good for Dwarfs)
IMT

Combat Feats (Two Handed):
Power Attack
Weapon Prof (Pure Bard Only)
Improved Critical
Stunning Blow
Weapon Focus

Combat Feats (TWF):
TWF
ITWF
GTWF (IF BAB Permits need 2 Levels Fighter/Barb or Level 15)
Improved Critical
Stunning Blow
Power Attack
Weapon Focus

Combat Feats (One Handed Human):
Khopesh
IC Slashing
Power Attack
Weapon Focus
Combat Expertise (Not typical)

So, basically it is OK to go one handed and a shield but you really have to commit to AC to make it worthwhile. In the end game you need to be able to consitently reach ~50 AC to justify the damage drop off from using a two hander.

10 Base
10 Mithral Breastplate
5 Max Dex Bonus
3 Barkskin Pot
6 +5 Mithral Shield
4 +4 Protection Item
2 Dodge Chaosgaurde
=40 AC

That is still not enough, you would need things like a chattering ring, +5 protection item and combat expertise to hit 48 AC which is getting close to being solid at the high end. So if you really want to build a bardbarian tank I would consider combat expertise or your AC is just not going to get high enough (I personally would not do this but it IS POSSIBLE to reach 50 AC with a Bard if you really try and can get a few outside buffs).

If you do not want to commit to AC and get a lot of items to support the shield you are better off going two handed. Feats that I personally would take for your human.

Power Attack (Required for Warchanter)
Weapon Focus (Required for Warchanter)
Extend (Constant Haste/Displacement is your Friend)
IC Slashing (Good for GAxes and GSwords)
SF Enchantement (Help bolster your non-maxxed CC spell ability)

Last feat is more open (this would depend on your playstyle really). If you like to use high DC scrolls then SF UMD is a good choice. If you want more spell points then take MT. If you like casting CC spells GSF Enchantement would be a good choice. Finally if you want to bolster your hit points the Toughness with Barb Tough I would net you 21 more hit points at level 14. You could even go with blunt weapons and stunning blow as well. With a weighted weapon and ~26 top end strength that can be a very effective strategy. If you go blunt and Mauls then swap out slashing above for blunt.

[geezee]

This is a great candidate for a reroll. To begin with, why put points into dex and int, when you could have started with 18 str for the same price? Why take a level of barbarian when youre not using martial weapons or sprint even?

CHA is too low to do any high end cc, so I assume you are trying to deal damage with this character. So why not go warchant? And why no power attack?!! So many of your feats are screwed up that it would simply be easier to start over than to pay fred all that money.

Heres a basic bardbarian template. (28 point)

Dwarf Bard 10/ fighter 2/ barbarian 2
STR 18 DEX 8 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 12
feats: SF:UMD, power attack, WF:slash, THF, ITHF, IC: slash, GTHF

Nothing fancy, just plenty of brute force. No crowd control spells. Spell points go for buffs, perma rage, and perma haste. Warchant and barb enhancement give you 3 barbarian rages. Turn on power attack, grab a big axe, and kill things very fast.

[Karethon]

Also I don't think you really need the weapon focus feat. You will have plenty to hit with all your buffs.

Thanks for the feedback...good stuff I'll add to my list of considerations. I did want to comment on this bit, however. Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for the Warchanter, so without giving up that specialty, I can't give up WF or PA.


This is a great candidate for a reroll. To begin with, why put points into dex and int, when you could have started with 18 str for the same price? Why take a level of barbarian when youre not using martial weapons or sprint even?

CHA is too low to do any high end cc, so I assume you are trying to deal damage with this character. So why not go warchant? And why no power attack?!! So many of your feats are screwed up that it would simply be easier to start over than to pay fred all that money.

Did you actually read the build? The character is a warchanter, with power attack. I explained why I added points to INT in a previous post, please refer back to that. As for the DEX, I'll just say that a build doesn't have to be completely Min-Maxed to be viable. DEX provides more benefit than just AC, so it actually can come in useful later.

[geezee]

My apologies to the OP. No more drunken posts. After reading the build without double vision, I see you did take PA and warchant. So its not quite as weak as I thought, compared to other bardbarian builds.

The min/max issue is a separate debate. In my opinion, strength helps this type of character much more than anything else. You're giving up +1/+1 attack/damage and 1 point of jump, trip DC, resisting trip, for 2 reflex, 2 balance and some points into tumble and intimidate?!!! The only person youre going to intimidate is the priest at the inn after you get your rear end handed to you. Although this kind of a character can deal a ton of damage, he is not designed to draw any additional agro. You will already find yourself dying a lot with this type of character without intimidate. Intimidate will just make that worse. I guess intimidate is good if youre the type of player who likes to run to the kitchen to make sandwiches while your party carries your lifestone to the shrine.

And I still don't understand why you took barbarian and khopesh at the same time. You need to drop khopesh and grab a 2-hander, which does nearly double the damage of a khopesh. And also drop those silly dragonmark feats. The feats I have suggested willl make your character far more effective. Which means rerolling unless you're sitting on a heap of dragonshards or cash to buy them.

Or you can keep playing this gimpy toon if you enjoy it. That's the most important thing. He's still a bard and can do a lot of things. I was just telling you how to improve the character, since you asked.

[ErgonomicCat]

So, here's my version of this - thoughts on it?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

s
Level 14 Chaotic Good Human Male
(1 Barbarian \ 13 Bard)
Hit Points: 159
Spell Points: 549
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 9
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 12 12
Constitution 15 15
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 5 18
Bluff 1 2
Concentration 6 19
Diplomacy 5 19
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 5 14
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 1
Intimidate 1 2
Jump 3 6
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 5 19
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 5
Tumble 5 18
Use Magic Device 5 19

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 2 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I

Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I

Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Warchanter

Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II

Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music IV

Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II

[Karethon]

Wanted to respond to some of geezee's points (and reiterating for others), but not really finding anything to directly quote that would make sense.

First, you're right, the stats might be a bit off. Dex and Int are definitely not priorities on a build like this, but for the lower end content that I had to go through to get leveled, the Dex helped somewhat. As for the Int, I made it a 10 for a "silly" reason, mainly because I wanted a "social skill" for in-quest NPCs. Warchanter gives a bonus to intimidate, so it seemed like a good idea. I wanted the other skills, and couldn't justify (to myself) losing any of them. If someone said "hey, that's a cool idea, how do you make a character like that?" I would probably suggest they not follow my build exactly, but I would tell them what I did and my personal reason for it. As of this moment, the stats are working, so I don't plan to re-roll on that account (if later play proves differently, I might reconsider it).

Second point, the main reason I can see for not going with a 2-handed weapon is that it would tend to draw more aggro. They might be dead quicker, making it a non-issue, but it is a concern for me. If I come across a good greataxe I might give it a shot and see how things work. I'll have to see if I have one or two sitting in the bank somewhere this weekend.

Lastly, on the subject of the Dragonmarks, it has become increasingly obvious that nobody likes them in builds. I'm currently reviewing my spell list to see what I can swap out in the event that I choose to drop those feats. The primary downside is that I would have to give up the "cool tattoo" that comes with it:) . Although having to expend SP for those spells is a "downside", too. The latest gifting has left me with 7 high end dragon shards, so that won't be an issue...although I hate giving any mindflayer money, if you know what I mean.

I'm hoping to get some play time on the character this weekend, and hopefully hit 13th level in the process. I think that with the gear I have set aside for 13th, that will be a good test of viability in the end.

[Karethon]

So, here's my version of this - thoughts on it?



Would it be better to take the Improved Two Handed Fighting at 9th, and then Improved Critical: Slashing at 12th?

[ErgonomicCat]

Would it be better to take the Improved Two Handed Fighting at 9th, and then Improved Critical: Slashing at 12th?

I thought about that - I think that will mostly depend on how I feel at level 9. If I'm constantly short on SPs, and it's really hurting me, Mental Toughness.

If I feel like I'm just not killing things at all, then ITHF and IC:Slash.

[geezee]

If you have dragonshards, and dont mind using them, you could really improve the character by swapping 3 feats.

1) Drop Khopesh. Until you get the SOS, greataxes do far more damage than any other single melee weapon. Yes, there is an issue of increased agro. But with some minor adjustments to your playstyle, this can be remedied. When you are fighting one-on-one, you have agro anyway. So it behooves you to kill the target as fast as possible.

In a large crowd, you want to isolate a target on one of the edges when youre using a 2 hander. You need to be careful not to hit other mobs with splash damage. The other adjustment is that becomes crucial when you are using a big 2-hander is to follow a tank, or even better, 2 tanks into the fray. The other time you need to be careful with the 2-hander is when you are fighting a boss. In this case it is best to fight like a rogue. Let the fighters and mages get his health down to about 2/3 before you attack him. Just stand back and debuff or heal someone for a few seconds first. If you follow these simple precautions, you shouldnt have any problems with increased agro from the big 2-hander. You will do a lot more damage and get a lot more kills. And actually get hit less. But for god's sake dont go intimidating any mobs.

Replace Khopesh with skill focus:UMD. This is such a useful feat on a STR-based bard it's hard to emphasize it enough. There's a big difference between your self-buffed UMD of 29 or 30 and a UMD of 32 or 33 when your toon gets capped. Not failing with rez scrolls by itself is huge.

2) Drop the dragonmark feats. Yeah its gonna cost you your cool tatoos and a little bit of mana for those times you want to cast DD. If you took mental toughness as one of your feats, you would actually end up with more mana. For the other feat, toughness, THF, and improved mental toughness are all good candiates. THF increases the amount of damage you do with a 2 hander. If you find yourself running out of mana when you perma-haste and perma-rage, then IMT would serve you best.