Bard's Fascinate... overpowered?!?!

[Laith]

fascinate will have a save soon: something it is decidedly lacking at the moment. Or at least it's been hinted that the perform skill will have more of a purpose soon.

it will be an impossibly high save, that basically requires a roll of a 20, but it will have a save.

...and it'll be funny to watch the bard panic because of those 20's ;)

edit: here's to hoping my ninja powers don't go away with the forum maintanence.

[Spell]

Situation:
The group turns a corner and encounters 10 orcs.
The orcs see the group and charge.
Battle begins.
The bard hops around like a flea on crack and
fascinates everything. The mobs then sit there quietly while the group smartly takes them out one-by-one.
-----------------

Playing a caster, I am constantly having to make
saving rolls to hypontize mobs. And Hypnotic Pattern
lasts about as long as a Barbarian can make two swings.

Sorry Bards, but this just seems totally out of whack.

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?

[In_Like_Flynn]

Bard hate. That's new.

[Spell]

Bard hate. That's new.

Not Hate, really.
Just pointing out a wide discrepancy in fucntionality.
Or at least, so it seems to me.

[Laith]

I must have missed that tidbit.
Thanks.nothing concrete has been said, but there was a hint.

edit: ninj-OWNED!

[Spell]

fascinate will have a save soon, or at least it's been hinted that the perform skill will have more of a purpose soon.

it will be an impossibly high save, that basically requires a roll of a 20, but it will have a save.

...and it'll be funny to watch the bard panic because of those 20's ;)

edit: here's to hoping my ninja powers don't go away with the forum maintanence.

I must have missed that tidbit.
Thanks.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Bard hate. That's new.

I guess you missed the fireworks when PvP was first introduced.

[GeneralDiomedes]

It seems you have a very low mob-save tolerance. Or are you trying to cast un-heightened Hypnotism on enemy clerics and casters? Will saves of melee creatures in the 'Hold are _anything_ but god-like.

Skilled Enchanters in the 'Hold make it look easy, sorry to say.

[Zenako]

A few differences...

Bard fascinate DOES require fairly close proximity, meaning the bard needs to mingle with the intended fans. (now some haste, Displacement, GH, etc does make it easier). Also I believe I have been interrupted by failed Concentration or standing up status (been tripped) and not gotten off the intended effect. Unlike spells like Hypnotise which works at range, fascainte is a burst from the Bard with a "short range".

A skilled bard will have a bunch of songs available, BUT those same song slots are used for Spellsong, or Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatness, etc. As for going to needing a perfrom check, that would not be a huge obstacle for most bards keep it maxed anyway and have high boost items stashed away. It would also be interesting to see which save would apply? I suspect WILL and those are often the poorest saves for most mobs. I know my bard would have a net perform of about 40 off the top of my head with out even thinking about things like Rabbit gloves or extra feats. DC40 will saves...as mentioned, looking for 20s will be the name of the game.

[Draclaud]

They have enough nerfing to do without us giving them more ideas on how to nerf us. It already seems as though the have an us vs them mentality with their "NEW!:" Changes...Let's not give them any more targets shall we?

[Gypsy_Mouse]

The mobs then sit there quietly while the group smartly takes them out one-by-one.


Really? You've seen groups play smartly when there's a bard in the party? :eek:
I need to move to your server then because I NEVER get the chance to fascinate ANYTHING unless I race ahead of the group (which I'm not going to do just to use one ability of my bard).

In the rare cases where I get a chance, the group suddenly decides it's a race to see who can kill the fascinated mobs the fastest. :rolleyes: And half the time I'm STILL in the middle of the gathered mobs and wind up taking a second beating AFTER I've taken my initial beating from being in the middle of them and trying to get the song off. :mad:

You know what's even worse? When I get told, "Don't bother, we'll have them killed faster than you can play your song." ~sigh~ Thanks, I guess I'll just stand off to the side and watch out for our casters until you want a buff.


And like Zenako said, I've been interrupted (very rare at this point) and I've come out of my song beaten almost to a pulp. And the mobs do get a chance to save (I've seen the save shield pop up shortly after they've been fascinated), not to mention I've seen mobs NOT get fascinated (again, rare).
So it's not some tricked out range spell with no consequences for the bard.

[WolfSpirit]

Dear Mr OP,
Please provide a listing of all your characters present and future.
All Bards will be sent this list to prevent any future buffing of your Bard-Hating Characters...
:D
j/k

On the serious side, We do love our fascinate just the way it is. Recent changes made our songs of peace and serenity cause instant HATE AND WANTON DESTRUCTION URGES from any nearby monsters. (Hence the flea on crack comment from observers)
Insult to injury would be after getting whacked to within inches of our death, only to have the monsters NOT stop all that whacking and finish us off... Sad day indeed when the Bard (secondary healer and possible raise deader) is no longer putting those lovely buffs on you because of over-wacking...

On a side note, I don't think there are many Bard builds that don't simply Max out the perform just because they may incorporate other effects into the skill.

[bigal4458]

First, caster are not underpowered. I play one. And the functionality of a bard is buff, CC, heal, although far from restricted to this as many have created some neat builds (i.e. battlebards). But the number of buff/heal/cc bards out there are few and far between, and that is because we get no offensive spells. They take patience and skill to play well.

Fascinate is powerful, yes, but far from overpowered. How does it compare to a sorc heightend PK, FoD insta-kill of multiple enemies?

[Furgulder]

Playing a caster, I am constantly having to make
saving rolls to hypontize mobs. And Hypnotic Pattern
lasts about as long as a Barbarian can make two swings.


Im sorry, how many Hypnottic Patterns can you cast as compared to my 17 songs per rest? Well of course that is 17 songs before I have to cast spell singer for you, and inspire courage/greatness for the melee characters.


:rolleyes:

I love how people always gripe "Nerf them, they can do something better than me!" or "They can do it, so make me more powerful!" in this game

[Zenako]

Yah...my Bard wants some wicked powerful IK spell in his repretoire now! I mean an awesome soundburst might give the mob an earache, but I want a SPLITING Headache, like FoD!!!....

Sorry, but we all have our powers and skills. I can stop the mobs in there tracks, BUT, they are still there and probably need to be taken out someway by melee or other spell. Kinda like a Timeout for the mobs. Gives the party a chance to sort itself out.

As for getting a party to use the skill of a bard to good effect, all it takes is some people with any experience to just show everyone how effective it Can be when done right. guild runs will make great use of those skills....

[Capstern]

Sorry Bards, but this just seems totally out of whack.

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?

Can you tell me how this is the case. Since the last mod or so my caster has become near all powerful. My guild members and I have 7 casters between us in a guild of about 5 active players and they are more or less godlike in their ability to kill anything. Reaver, titan regular mobs - heck I can even FoD the dang cat men most of the time and their SR is ********.

I have more sp I cast way faster and I dont really need my firewall to last 2-3 min. 40 second or so usually kills just about anything.

I can start at the door to one of the dragons and run the the rune and pop the skellies and kill everything thats there - live and laugh about it

I am totallly sick of all the casters out there bemoaning how they arent as powerful as melee...nope they arent they are way more powerful. By far.

[flowmaster]

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers.

Don't forget haste, gotta have haste, and dancing ball and firewall, yea, that's the ticket.

[The_Old_Sage]

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?
For the life of me, I don't understand posts like this. Why is it that individuals feel that the only solution to an apparent shortfall in their own characters is through the nerfing of other characters?

Seriously, the decision of casters to resort to PK/FoD has nothing to do with the perceived shortcomings of the various crowd control spells, it has everything to do with casters wanting to kill mobs directly rather than just control crowds for the melees to cut down.

Heighten is your friend. My wizard's PKs/FoD are resisted and saved against as much as his crowd control spells, and when comparing the use of mana vs. the net result, it's not always the most efficient.

[pastor_dex]

OP, if you want to just quit the game now, I won't even ask for your stuff. :cool:

[Bilger]

My main is a Bard and even in guild groups mobs die to fast for me to even attempt to fascinate. Even with any type of save unless mobs have a +40 to that particular save my bards 50 perform is going to stop everything unless a 20 is rolled.
As far as casters are concerned they are overpowered and I have a capped Wizard so know what I am saying.
For example even at low levels guild group 2 wiz and 3 sorcer 1 cleric levels 2-4 went through TR without deaths or any troubles at all charm is an amazing thing when put to good use in the right situation.
Lets not get into the mana thing either my bard has over a 1000 mana compared to the 1300 + on Wizards and 1800+ on sorcerers so overall who is overpowered not bards!!

[Spookydodger]

Here is why Fascinate is a much more powerful ability in this game than in PnP:

You can do it in battle. In PnP, once battle starts, or anyone even makes a threatening move, poof, fascinate is no more.

Oh, and you need to keep playing.

If fascinate did need any tweak, I would say make it so that the bard toggles it on and off. As long as they play, and the mob is undamaged, viva la song.

Though as many have said, the required proximity and limited number of songs makes this a difficult prospect. If you want a useless ability, try the Suggestion ability. It lasts for so little time, and if the mob gets whacked at all while fascinated, your suggestion is down the drain.

[Deusxmachina]

Bards can break the game.

The amusing part of Fascinate, the most powerful thing in the entire game, is that it rarely has a chance to be used.

[Zenako]

one type of circumstance can let bards shine a bit. Try running near level quests with only 2 or 3 characters. THEN, you get a chance to use those songs well. The one tank in your party probably is more than happy to only wake up one mob at a time, instead of all 8 at once. I often run two man quests with my Bro-in-law, My bard, his Dwarf Tank.

[Freeman]

The funny part is that many bards have been asking for them to add a save to Fascinate for a long time. Fascinate would be overpowered if more groups took full advantage of it. Unfortunately, I've had far too many occasions where it was only used to give a group time to rez, heal, and generally recover from a near-wipe. If you have a party that works well enough together to actually take advantage of Fascinate, then you should consider yourself a very lucky player. At that point, you're going to defeat any enemy and breeze through any quest, regardless of whether a bard is with you or not.

[Klattuu]

Anyone else remember the days when there was thread after thread of people complaining how the Bard was practially useless and Fascinate was one the most useless skills in the game?

Amazing how a little fine-tuning and a few levels can do to change an additude.

[Dragonhyde]

Fascinat vs spells is all in the fact that you cannot fascinate across a room and you can hear a bard coming. I guess they could always bring the silence spell into the game but wait that would affect mages too.
Fascinate is a nice class ability but is not anymore overpowered than say maximize/empower added to damage spells. But when they do start doing dcs on fascinate then it needs to work better than that silly freedom song which only seems to use bard level.

[jaitee]

this post is just sad, really...you think a bard is superior to a caster?

some people dont even think my bard is a caster, and i have 2 bards!!

my sorc can clear quests in matter of seconds, zerg zerg zerg, my bard? he can stand around and play some tunes, hoping to not die, better yet, if i even get a chance to fasinate

when i run pop, you know who is on ball duty? and lever duty? my bard!!!

really i have all types of casters, and by far, the bard is the weakest, most undesirable class any groups wants

i know how to play my bards, but with the playstyle of today, their is no need for a bard, other then to play your tunes, and shut up for the rest of the quest

[wundernewb]

Really? You've seen groups play smartly when there's a bard in the party? :eek:
I need to move to your server then because I NEVER get the chance to fascinate ANYTHING unless I race ahead of the group (which I'm not going to do just to use one ability of my bard).



Maybe you don't need to change servers, but play with better listeners/non speed gamers. Any party I've been in, if the bard says they are going to fascinate, everybody waits, and then takes the mobs down one at a time. (after the bard has retreated)

Sometimes there are accidents, (usually an extra mob or two woken up early by a glancing blow from a 2-hander) but generally, bard's fascinate is respected. Here on Argo, anyway

[Prinstoni]

They have enough nerfing to do without us giving them more ideas on how to nerf us. It already seems as though the have an us vs them mentality with their "NEW!:" Changes...Let's not give them any more targets shall we?

Indeed. STOP NERFING/CHANGING CONTENT AND GIVE US SOME NEW CONTENT!!!!

1 week without playing now, and the last time I logged in I played 1 Titan raid. Before that I had another 1 week vacation. I am begining to think that my xbox is going to get worn out before I start playing DDO again.

STOP CHANGING CONTENT AND BRING US SOME NEW STUFF!!!

I am a proud supporter of the NON-NERF UNION!

[Mizyrlou]

Fascinate is not overpowered by any stretch.

I can count on one hand and still have fingers left over on the times my bard was able to fascinate and the mob wasn't snapped out of it be someone tearing into them with greatsword swinging.

It doesn't bother me to the degree it bothers other bards since I'm used to similar when I run my cleric main.

[Zenako]

bards revenge, just start charming the mobs...then they can't be hurt by the zerging tanks....grrrrinnn

[Radsyn]

Pretty much sums it up


A few differences...

Bard fascinate DOES require fairly close proximity, meaning the bard needs to mingle with the intended fans. (now some haste, Displacement, GH, etc does make it easier). Also I believe I have been interrupted by failed Concentration or standing up status (been tripped) and not gotten off the intended effect. Unlike spells like Hypnotise which works at range, fascainte is a burst from the Bard with a "short range".

A skilled bard will have a bunch of songs available, BUT those same song slots are used for Spellsong, or Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatness, etc. As for going to needing a perfrom check, that would not be a huge obstacle for most bards keep it maxed anyway and have high boost items stashed away. It would also be interesting to see which save would apply? I suspect WILL and those are often the poorest saves for most mobs. I know my bard would have a net perform of about 40 off the top of my head with out even thinking about things like Rabbit gloves or extra feats. DC40 will saves...as mentioned, looking for 20s will be the name of the game.

[Ishturi]

God-like saves? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT.

Step one: get the feats! Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus help! (I recommend: Necromancy)
Step two: get the Items! Get an Item that boosts the DC of a school. (I recommend: Necromancy)
Step three: get Enervation! This spell lowers the level AND the saves of creatures by 1d4. If a mob is saving too much, hit them with this.
Step four: Party! With Enervation, both Spell Focus feats, and the correct Items, you should be able to CC/PK/FoD most stuff out there (red mobs Excluded)

And don't tell me this doesn't work, I'm a level 14 Sorc. Spell Penetration feats/Enhancements/Items also help at higher level quests when mobs have SR.

[Hvymetal]

Why is it casters that are always complaining? You guys are just starting to come into your own yet you still find stuff to b*tch about. Sheeesh:rolleyes:
Complain when bards are out there soloing raid bosses. Wait, you guys already are.....

[Freeman]

Why is it casters that are always complaining? You guys are just starting to come into your own yet you still find stuff to b*tch about. Sheeesh:rolleyes:
Complain when bards are out there soloing raid bosses. Wait, you guys already are.....

Yep. Sorcs and wizards solo raid bosses. Bards try to use their charm, wit, and natural good looks to get the same result. In DDO, it is a little bit tougher than it would be in PnP, but I think Velah and the Demon Queen are starting to fall for me. Unfortunately, I think the Storm Reaver is now stalking me. He won't stop calling, leaving me PMs and text messages. I think I might have to get a restraining order. Which house handles that?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

House Denieth. Although House Kundarak could set up defenses at your residence.

[Shade]

I think the DC should be something like Perform/2 + cha mod.

So average 40 perform, = 20, and say 30 cha for +10, = DC 30. works on most ppl but pally can save vs it 95%.

Or maximum perform (over 70) = 35 + max cha (34) +12. 47 = almost no one will save, maybe a pally if he rolls a 19.

Just straight perform would be overpowered.

[Freeman]

I think the DC should be something like Perform/2 + cha mod.

So average 40 perform, = 20, and say 30 cha for +10, = DC 30. works on most ppl but pally can save vs it 95%.

Or maximum perform (over 70) = 35 + max cha (34) +12. 47 = almost no one will save, maybe a pally if he rolls a 19.

Just straight perform would be overpowered.

Since Charisma is already added into the Perform skill, it seems odd to half Perform, then add Charisma into it again. Also, you make the mistake many people make, and only consider end game. For a first level bard, the DC would probably be more along the lines of (4 Perform + 4 Charisma)/2 + 4 Charisma = 8 DC, which would be virtually useless. Even a first level spell will usually have a DC of at least 14 or 15, so the mobs would hardly ever fail. At 5th level, with a +5 Perform item and Heroism, it would likely be up to (13 Perform + 6 Charisma + 2 Heroism)/2 + 6 Charisma = DC 16. Since the spells would have minimum DCs of 17 for bards, you are still behind even your lowest level spells. Fascinate would only start catching up around levels 7-10. Your method would make Fascinate fairly useless for a long time.

And since adding ANY save would weaken it from the current state, a high save will still be less powerful than it is now. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a save added to it, but I don't think this method would work due to the way it would cripple low-level bards. I don't think it is overpowered now, since if it were, more people would be requiring a bard in their party. As it stands, I think it is a useful tool to have, but hardly a deciding factor on any quest. Like any other ability, a good party makes it powerful and a bad party makes it completely useless.

[Shade]

As it stands now, the ability is plain insanely overpowered at level1. It should not hold that type of power.

It's so powerful that a maxxed out wizard with every raid gear item available would be better off taking 1 level of bard for the best crowd control ability in the game. AOE no fail stop everything song..

You can get more then DC8 at lvl with my idea.
You can get
4 (4 rank, +1 item, +3 skill focus 8/2 or human and +1 enhancement +2 HV1)
5 (20 charisma) (drow, or 18 +2 item, or +1 item +1 tome, reasonable number, even higher is possible)
=9 (or up to 12 if you have max tomes and AP available)

Since your level1, you'd be using this on kobolds.. Which have a -1 will save. So theyd have to roll a 10 to save.. That equals 50% chance, which is very fairly balanced for such a powerful ability that can stop a horde of kobolds in there tracks. And later on it can scale up to the point where it 95% effective against the most elite mobs.

[Freeman]

As it stands now, the ability is plain insanely overpowered at level1. It should not hold that type of power.

It's so powerful that a maxxed out wizard with every raid gear item available would be better off taking 1 level of bard for the best crowd control ability in the game. AOE no fail stop everything song..

You can get more then DC8 at lvl with my idea.
You can get
4 (4 rank, +1 item, +3 skill focus 8/2 or human and +1 enhancement +2 HV1)
5 (20 charisma) (drow, or 18 +2 item, or +1 item +1 tome, reasonable number, even higher is possible)
=9 (or up to 12 if you have max tomes and AP available)

Since your level1, you'd be using this on kobolds.. Which have a -1 will save. So theyd have to roll a 10 to save.. That equals 50% chance, which is very fairly balanced for such a powerful ability that can stop a horde of kobolds in there tracks. And later on it can scale up to the point where it 95% effective against the most elite mobs.

So, a level one character with maxxed out gear, skill focus, and maxxed charisma will have a 50% chance of success against regular kobolds on normal difficulty?(That's if they have a -1 Will save. From my experience, most mobs saves are bumped up much higher than their PnP counterparts) And then it only works for approximately 6 seconds(It may start out higher, but I don't think it is much higher), unless they take damage first. Yeah, that's a powerful ability there. For your wizard example, the duration would be the same. I wouldn't exactly call that a powerful ability. I've seen lag stop things for longer than that.

Seriously, I've heard people talk about how the wizard/sorc FOD'd everything, or hit them with Flesh to Stone, many times both on the boards and in game. Fascinate is currently the most powerful CC ability in the game. It has been since the game started. Yet I've never seen a wizard take a level of bard to gain the ability. Most characters who splash a level of bard are doing it for healing wands and UMD. Fascinate can be a powerful ability, but the limitations on it are the reason that it is rarely used. I don't use it that often on my bard. In most cases my spells work faster and just as well. Against any named mobs, it is completely useless.

The mechanics of Perform are overpowered on paper, due to the lack of a save for the ability(There should be a save, but I see no reason to make it as low as you want). But in practice, the ability's practicality of use makes it a highly situational tool. Even then, it requires a decent party to leverage the advantage it gives you. I've mentioned using it several times during a quest and had other party members comment that they had completely forgotten about it. If people forget the ability exists, I don't think it is an overpowered aspect of the game.

[Riorik]

It is true, fascinate is incredibly overpowered primarily because of the complete lack of game mechanics in a MMO environment to handle the conditions that are intended to limit it's utility in PnP. In short, you really can't fascinate when you're fighting somebody - and pretty much ANY hostile type environment would destroy it...aka, more than merely being directly attacked, but simply witnessing hostile behavior (against others) where you could reasonably assume you were next...would break it.

However, because DDO is pretty much a combat game, not a roleplaying game, if that was actually implemented, you'd almost never be able to use it. It's exactly like how Charm & Suggestion are incredibly overpowered for what PnP allows them to do. Hint Hint - there's a lot more than merely Fascinate that's out of whack with DDO.

All that's well and good - but what's really the problem with Bards getting this ability anyways? Considering DDO is setup as a cooperative play game, ONLY, what's really the issue other than PvP - which was always regarded as a secondary add-on for the game. Further, the developers said from the very first that they would not modify game play or rules to accomodate PvP -- admittedly, they did a bit when they limited the spells you could use in the taverns, but that really didn't impact the questing component.

So in the end, I'd say I'm wholeheartedly against any modification to the Bard Fascinate ability - partially because to be consistent, Turbine would have to expend (waste?) developer time adjusting everything else that's over/underpowered compared to PnP and frankly, there's years of work there - and partly because it's just a waste of time to fix something that really isn't broken.

So what if you get fascinated in the taverns - deal with it - and, figure out what you can do different to accomodate if you feel the urge. If you're a caster, Arcane OR Divine, there are lots of options. My experience is that bards are a bit weak on their Fortitude saves - try Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death if you're arcane, Destruction if you're a Cleric. If you've got any ranged abilities at all - use them and look at stat damaging OR effects such as Crippling, Weighted(Stunning), Hamstring, Trip, etc etc. Most Bards also aren't going to have the Strength to avoid most of the above.

Yes, it is quite possible to build some kick-booty BattleBards - I've met a few really good ones - the things I'm mentioning more or less work against the more common builds...even then, nobody is invulnerable...it's all a matter of adapting to the approach that works.

Personally, I highly recommend making your own Bard - often the best way to learn a given characters (build) weak points, is to actually play it and experience it first hand.

[jaitee]

bards already suck as they are now, its weird to see people keep complaining about how powerful they are when all they have is one little fasinate song

when bards gets spells like FoD, and Pk, then start nerfing fasinate, untill then a bard's only worth of playing is his songs, and how they can help the group

[Freeman]

...how they can help the group

Isn't that really the only way any character is measured? A good bard can do a lot more than play a few songs. We just look sexiest when we are playing our instruments ;)

[Shade]

So, a level one character with maxxed out gear, skill focus, and maxxed charisma will have a 50% chance of success against regular kobolds on normal difficulty?(That's if they have a -1 Will save. From my experience, most mobs saves are bumped up much higher than their PnP counterparts).
No. Read my previous post to see accurate numbers.

And 6 seconds is more then long enough to kill someone. I was mostly refering to PvP.. 6 seconds gives a wizard plenty of time to cast hypno, ottos and hold on someone rendering them completed screwed for over a minuit.

Really facinate is an unneassary power at low lvls, and if it is used frequently and with good success it can make any quest very trivial. As such it having a low DC at low lvl is fine.

My idea still gives it an insane unresistable DC at high lvl, but requires good perform item and enhancement, so it seems fair to me.

[Freeman]

No. Read my previous post to see accurate numbers.

And 6 seconds is more then long enough to kill someone. I was mostly refering to PvP..

The only numbers I used were the ones you gave. I would ask you which ones were accurate and which ones were inaccurate(Tough to figure out, since I only used ONE number, the 50% figure that you used for a level 1 bard), but I see you are concerned with PvP. Now I no longer care. Have fun!

[Hvymetal]

The only numbers I used were the ones you gave. I would ask you which ones were accurate and which ones were inaccurate(Tough to figure out, since I only used ONE number, the 50% figure that you used for a level 1 bard), but I see you are concerned with PvP. Now I no longer care. Have fun!
Agreed nerfing Bards for PvP :rolleyes:

[Cowdenicus]

this post is just sad, really...you think a bard is superior to a caster?

some people dont even think my bard is a caster, and i have 2 bards!!

my sorc can clear quests in matter of seconds, zerg zerg zerg, my bard? he can stand around and play some tunes, hoping to not die, better yet, if i even get a chance to fasinate

when i run pop, you know who is on ball duty? and lever duty? my bard!!!

really i have all types of casters, and by far, the bard is the weakest, most undesirable class any groups wants

i know how to play my bards, but with the playstyle of today, their is no need for a bard, other then to play your tunes, and shut up for the rest of the quest

and collect loot.... jeez :eek: :D

[Hvymetal]

and collect loot.... jeez :eek: :D

And buy and sell stuff :D

[dragonofsteel2]

LMAO, bards are what people worrying about being overpowered. This got to be a joke. I have high level bard, they are fun and have lots of tools if you know how to use them. Though my 14 level wizard makes that bard look like a little girl. If want to know the class that is overpowered look no further then the casters. Damage spells, crowd control, and Wait instant death spells. I have done crucible runs in 20-25 min with all caster group. Using maybe 10potions, if was not for couple parts needing two people I could easily solo this quest with enough pots and going out for shrines. Casters in this game just going to grow in power to. Although I do see the game giving npc deathward very soon on all there new quest. It will be almost impossible to make quest a challenge if can just instant kill the mobs. The other solution will be giving lot of mobs high saves.

[iamsamoth0]

Bards are not overpowered.