stop adding all this crazy equipment to your build please

[Reisei]

90% of the builds people post people factor in these insane +7 holy burstl vorpal +6 to all stats khopesh of greater everything bane equipment why cant you just post your build nude or with realistic equipment

unless you actually have a +6 stat item and +2 tomes in every stat dont add them to the build on the forum seriously...

[Ghoste]

Even if you do have +2 stat tomes for every stat, you know 99.99% of people dont, so what's the point of sharing such a build?

Actually I think I can answer that question: it's a **** measuring contest. If you leave out the tomes and +6 to every stat items, then so and so will post a build that includes them and will thus give the illusion of being a better build, just like a potatoe can be used to create another illusion.

[Blind_Skwerl]

Actually, there are a lot of people that do have this kind of equiptment. I'm not saying I do, but I know of many people that have used multiple +2 tomes, wear wizardry 7 helms, etc. It just takes lots of loot/raid running.

[adrinor]

I also know quite a few people that have these items. Though I haven't heard of a wiz 7 item.

[Ghoste]

Not the point. Adding all these items to the build is just bragging, and it distracts from the actual build. It assumes the only time you will spend playing the build is at lvl 13and above when you can equip that gear.

[Reisei]

Actually, there are a lot of people that do have this kind of equiptment. I'm not saying I do, but I know of many people that have used multiple +2 tomes, wear wizardry 7 helms, etc. It just takes lots of loot/raid running.

i know there are some people but it seems like 90% of the builds people post have that stuff. i say you shouldnt put stuff on the build that you dont actually have.

[Mhykke]

I think it depends on how someone posts it.

If they post +2 tomes for every stat, then yes, maybe that's a little overboard.

But that's not how most builds are posted.

Sure, a lot of them use 1 +2 tome, and usually awesome equipment, but that's pretty reasonable I believe. Everyone can get a +2 tome by getting the favor, and the equipment is simply something to shoot for.

I prefer people post builds w/ equipment included. It shows the potential of the character, and from there, it's easy to take off any items, or adjust items, for what you believe you'll have at cap.

I prefer that over a "nude" build, b/c then you have to try and add in all the equipment yourself, and you may miss a reason why a person did such and such with a certain enhancement, or something, b/c you're missing a piece of equipment that person was factoring in.

In short, simply look at the builds posted, and make adjustments in your head about what you believe you'll have at cap....You can see a person has X to hit w/ Y uber item, so take off the uber item, put in a weapon of your own, and readjust.

[Blind_Skwerl]

The wiz 7 was a typo. Sorry, I meant wiz 6. I have heard of race restricted wiz 7 but have never seen it, so I am skeptical of it's existance. I was in a hurry cause I am at work and my break was almost over.

Agreed, alot of these equiptment heavy stats are unrealistic for a casual or new player. The thing is, this game has been around about a year and a half. The recent server merge is evidence of a shrinking population in ddo. Not alot of new players here. Most of these folks have been playing since the game went live, or even beta. They have had plenty of time to accumulate nice equiptment, through their own loot runs, or through the spoils of a friend's soon to be cancelled account.

New players are regularly asking for 28 point builds, without using tomes or drow, and getting them. The guys on the class forum love taking requests for builds. It's their chance to try and outshine each other while not in the game.

[LastNameRage]

Wiz 7 does exist. And I don't see a problem with putting all the "uber" stuff into a build post, like some one said it shows it's endgame's potentail...and that's generally when a build comes into it's own and where it matters. I for one don't care in the slightest how well it performs in the early stages since those go by in 2 weeks. I do how ever care about how well it will performed pimped out at cap, since this is where our toons tend to sit for months until I level cap raise comes out.

threads like this appear every month or so, and they get no where because everyone out there can get these "uber" items eventually. And if they can't, may aswell cancell there subs or quit posting threads like this, the rest of us don't care what ppl put in their builds, it is "their" build after all, no one elses.

[Blind_Skwerl]

Hehe, asked about wiz 7 in guild, got to see 3 of them. they do exist. and here I am still using a crystalized widow's eye. :mad:

[Quartzite]

90% of the builds people post people factor in these insane +7 holy burstl vorpal +6 to all stats khopesh of greater everything bane equipment why cant you just post your build nude or with realistic equipment

The point of adding tomes and equipment is that stats don't make sense otherwise. Traditionally even numbered stats work best, but if you have a +1 tome and +6 item (or +2 tome and +5 item) waiting in the wings, then an odd number can work to bring the total to a positive. Factors like these are important to mention in builds designed for end-game potential.

I also think future level cap increases are important to take into account.

Nude builds are cool for noobs, but for most people interested in min-max playstyles the numbers are important. The point of analysing builds is to find "the best" builds for given roles. And a build being "the best" relies on "the best gear". Lots of builds can be successful without being "the best", but why even bother sharing those builds? Anyone with a basic understanding of the game can make a build that can do its job 1-14 without help. But it's important to analyse and discuss the maths if you want to find the ultimate builds.

[WolfSpirit]

Even if you do have +2 stat tomes for every stat, you know 99.99% of people dont, so what's the point of sharing such a build?


Truth?

There is not a real point. I can't stand builds that do this either.

"Look at me, I've no Family/GF-BF/Lover/RL Friends/Employment/Whatever, nothing to do all day but run loot runs and have everything I need. So here is a build I've made for all my Uber Equipment and I want to share it with everyone to feel important."

Maybe my guess is on, maybe its not. But that is certainly the impression they are giving and the one I draw, right or wrong.

You can't even use most of the items used in these posts till your Maxed level or close. Why bother? A useless build till you hit the level cap? Considering that I've been playing for half a year (I'd say I'm the average person) and have only pulled 3 +1 tomes is proof that unless you are dedicating 6 or more hours each day, (I get about 3) then one tome every other month isn't worth designing a build around. This is certainly the case for the poor souls who just start the game and don't want to make a character that will fail.

Nude is the way to make a build post.
Lets see what it can do from lv 1, we will fill in the equipment when the time is right or we pull it. Every one of us out here has a good imaniganation, hence the D&D part that we love so much. Filling in the blanks with what we have is no long reach.

Stop helping new people when your no help at all!

(This post is not meant to anger anyone, if you fit the above profile then don't take it to heart or all will see your fit.)
:)

[EinarMal]

I disagree, items and tomes are just as important to a build as stats, skills, feats, and enhancments. If you can't subtract 1 from a stat to see what it would look like without the +1 tome you need more help than a build....

Assuming a +2 favor tome and a couple of +1 tomes is reasonable. You can easily buy/trade for +6 stat items by level 14. The one thing I do not like is posting raid gear as that is generally hard to get. Seriously what max charisma sorc build isn't going to get a +6 stat item for charisma by 14? Does it really make a difference if you list their charisma as 23 (naked), 26 (with enhancements), 32 (with +6 item), or 34 (with favor tome). Personally I like to see the starting number and a reasonable ending number which 34 would be.

I think it is ok to put down a couple of raid items that would be of interest to the build if you can get them. For example a two handed Barbarian listing a sword of shadows is fairly reasonable or any two handed fighter really. Do they have to have it to make the build work? No, but it is the best weapon you can get so it is certainly worth trying to get it.

[WolfSpirit]

Assuming a +2 favor tome and a couple of +1 tomes is reasonable. You can easily buy/trade for +6 stat items by level 14. The one thing I do not like is posting raid gear as that is generally hard to get. Seriously what max charisma sorc build isn't going to get a +6 stat item for charisma by 14? Does it really make a difference if you list their charisma as 23 (naked), 26 (with enhancements), 32 (with +6 item), or 34 (with favor tome).

I think it is ok to put down a couple of raid items that would be of interest to the build if you can get them. For example a two handed Barbarian listing a sword of shadows is fairly reasonable or any two handed fighter really. Do they have to have it to make the build work? No, but it is the best weapon you can get so it is certainly worth trying to get it.

Sorry my friend.
I'm sure we agree on a thousand things, but not this one.
To assume anything is the problem with 90% of these builds. Lets not assume anything for the moment. Lets not believe that a Super powerful weapon like the Sword of Shadows is somehow reasonable. Because its not even close to reasonable. And the average person out there have only done each raid maybe twice after half a year, and that is giving alot.
(I've only done the dragon raid twice and the first time was left dead before the great chest so the greedy people could loot the chest, also tried the titan once but failed, and never got enough relics yet to do the reaver so...)
I still don't have one character with 1750 favor, don't have the time to grind, I'll miss out on other runs.
Also...


If you can't subtract 1 from a stat to see what it would look like without the +1 tome you need more help than a build.....

Isn't this argument even more powerful if used from the opposite side?
"If you can't add 1 to a stat to see what it would look like with the +1 tome, you need more help than a build..."

I'm not totally against using items, just show us the goods after. Or when making the post, include that it is Item/tome heavy and will fail without said items or somesuch.
Seriously man, I've never even seen a sword of shadows.

(Lets keep this a friendly debate, don't get all hotheaded please)

[EinarMal]

I'm not totally against using items, just show us the goods after. Or when making the post, include that it is Item/tome heavy and will fail without said items or somesuch.
Seriously man, I've never even seen a sword of shadows.

(Lets keep this a friendly debate, don't get all hotheaded please)

I am hardly hotheaded lol... The problem is what is reasonable? There are no guidelines and what one person thinks is reasonable someone else may not.

For example I think it is reasonable to eat a +1 dex tome at creation so that I can start with 16 dex and still take GTWF (requires 17 dex). Is that reasonable? It is clearly stated that you must do this or put a level up into dex. As long as you clearly state the items and reasoning of the build then so what?

Builds, at least in my opinion, are simply rough templates. If you do not like the items or tomes in them take them out yourself and decide if you still think it will work.

Because you don't want to grind for favor personally one shouldn't include a +2 favor tome. To me that is silly. I list it, and if you don't want to count it then take it out yourself and re-do the numbers and decide if it still works for you. You shouldn't be carbon copying things generally anyway. Your better off tweaking builds to fit your own playstyle.

As far as the sword of shadows, what you don't seem to get is no build is DEPENDENT on that. Find the best two handed weapon you can find and you will still be ok. The point of even mentioning is for the goal of what to use not what you HAVE to use. I think you take these things far too literally, or at least more than I do.

[JelloMold]

I think the real issue is that what is realistic and normal for some people is totally out of reach and kooky-talk for others. I'm more along your line Wolf, I've never even seen most of these items that people talk about like they are as common as a masterwork longsword. For people who constantly raid or do upper level loot runs, +2 every stat tomes, Sword of Shadows, multiple versions of the top weapon types, etc. are common. Most of these people run with people like themselves, and so they forget that a large chunk (I'd guess a majority) of the playerbase does not realistically expect to have half of this stuff EVER, much less enough to rely on it for a build. There are some people who don't run loot raids, don't raid regularly, and don't spend hours perusing the auction house. For people who play with what the game gives them, these builds are unrealistic. For those who do all the raiding etc., this is commonplace. It is reality for both. I have to keep reminding myself that most of the build posters are more likely to be the ones with all the stuff. As a result, I rarely look at all the details on the builds very closely.

[EinarMal]

I think the real issue is that what is realistic and normal for some people is totally out of reach and kooky-talk for others. I'm more along your line Wolf, I've never even seen most of these items that people talk about like they are as common as a masterwork longsword. For people who constantly raid or do upper level loot runs, +2 every stat tomes, Sword of Shadows, multiple versions of the top weapon types, etc. are common. Most of these people run with people like themselves, and so they forget that a large chunk (I'd guess a majority) of the playerbase does not realistically expect to have half of this stuff EVER, much less enough to rely on it for a build. There are some people who don't run loot raids, don't raid regularly, and don't spend hours perusing the auction house. For people who play with what the game gives them, these builds are unrealistic. For those who do all the raiding etc., this is commonplace. It is reality for both. I have to keep reminding myself that most of the build posters are more likely to be the ones with all the stuff. As a result, I rarely look at all the details on the builds very closely.

I agree in that I do not generally put much raid gear in and do not like builds (like a uber high AC build) that requires raid gear to function. Besides raid gear though I see +5/+6 items drop/trade/sell all the time. Anyone can get a "free" +2 tome, and +1 tomes are pretty common as well. Do people object to those as well?

Raid gear should not make the build and be required...but I have only seen a few builds ever that really required any of that stuff to function. A listing of the sword of shadows hardly means you have to have it. Just grab the best weapon you can and it hardly breaks the build.

[Impaqt]

I generally include the +2 Favor Tome and a +6 Item for the Primary stat. This seems resonable to me... my builds are 32 Pointers for the most part... Which means if your gonna roll it, you have a high level character already.

I also use a few +1 Tomes.. Which I feel are readily available.

But when it comes down to it, its not that hard to back off a few items to see what joe average can do with a particular build... what does a +6 Item [i]Really[/] do for a Build? +1 to hit... +1 to Saves.... 14 Hit points.... A Few Extra Spell points or +1DC.... None of that stuff nerfs a toon......

[JayDubya]

Yeah, I would never include raid gear in a build - it's too much of an insane time commitment to make it viable.

But BAM ore, Invader token, relic and scale-turn in equipment are not as unreasonable, since anyone can get them given enough effort.

Honestly, I think the build makers have been doing a pretty good job of classifying their builds - X is a great build for a new player, Y is a great build that requires no raid loot, Z is a build for someone who has unlocked drow favor, W is an uber build that requires significant raid loot.


As long as they're well-classified, I don't see what the problem is.

[Rameses]

Just wow... after reading this I am surprised that this has engendered such outbursts.

I've post 3 builds that Turbine was kind enuff to lose 2 of them. And yes I included Raid loot and "uber" gear that was aquired over time.
Reason is: This allows the reader to view what the optimal potential is for such a character build.
Raid loot is not hard to come by, the old arguement of get a good guild is alive and well in this regard.
Uber Gear is not hard to come, refer to Raid Loot. If a guild member is not willing to help you out with an item or two. Then I'd question if that guild is the right place for you.

I am, Rameses!

[WolfSpirit]

Honestly, I think the build makers have been doing a pretty good job of classifying their builds - X is a great build for a new player, Y is a great build that requires no raid loot, Z is a build for someone who has unlocked drow favor, W is an uber build that requires significant raid loot.

As long as they're well-classified, I don't see what the problem is.

This works, but I don't ever see it. I see:
"Turtle Build, no raid gear"
Then after reading it (Because I have a real interest in it) The thing has EVERYTHING Except raid gear!
OMG! A tome of each Stat?!?
+5 Mith of everything armors/shield?

Ok, maybe there is no raid gear, but this is certainly nothing an average person could ever aquire. Even if he/she saught out Plat farmers and bought their ill gotten goods, they still would sit the AH for months trying to get all the equipement.

I just like to see realistic builds, that the masses can do. Not some 10-12 hr per day players idea of how great they are for all they have to make a gimped character viable.

Its just a peave of mine I guess. Its like almost lying, but not quite...

[EinarMal]

This works, but I don't ever see it. I see:
"Turtle Build, no raid gear"
Then after reading it (Because I have a real interest in it) The thing has EVERYTHING Except raid gear!
OMG! A tome of each Stat?!?
+5 Mith of everything armors/shield?

Ok, maybe there is no raid gear, but this is certainly nothing an average person could ever aquire. Even if he/she saught out Plat farmers and bought their ill gotten goods, they still would sit the AH for months trying to get all the equipement.

I just like to see realistic builds, that the masses can do. Not some 10-12 hr per day players idea of how great they are for all they have to make a gimped character viable.

Its just a peave of mine I guess. Its like almost lying, but not quite...

Other than AC builds honestly almost no other builds I see really require the listed tomes and equipment to be effective. About the only exception are those that advocate eating a +1 tome in int for combat expertise or a +1 dex tome for GTWF.

To me you just sound lazy, copy the build to excel, take out what you don't like then decide if it still works for you. Learn to think and plan for yourself and use them as starting templates not the gospel according to XXXX.

[Quartzite]

I personally don't see the point of a non-optimised build?

"hai gaiz, i can make a sub-par character!"

Min-max theory is the whole reason to build discussion. And min-maxing requires maxed out loot.

My highest character is a level 6, but I plan builds and play according to what I ultimately want. I love build theory, I love planning and goal setting. Making sub-optimal builds is just useless.

[Blind_Skwerl]

I don't understand how it can be so hard to get some of this stuff? Yes, I realize that if the build lists stuff like wizardry 7 and multiple +3 tomes, it may be tough for most people to obtain. But I only get to play about 3-4 times a week, and have 3 capped characters, 3 more around level 10, and then my newest creation at a tender, young 3. Ransack PoP and a few other gianthold quests on elite and you too can be swimming in +1 tomes, banishers, disruptors, paralyzers, and the occasional vorpal or +5 mithral cs/bp/fp.

[Bombalo]

whenever im thinking through a build as a rule I only include +1 tomes (1 +2 for favor) and no higher than +5 stat items. And absolutely no raid loot. All the above are fairly easy to obtain and unless your a new person to the game you should be able to pick most up off the auctions house.

[Quartzite]

whenever im thinking through a build as a rule I only include +1 tomes (1 +2 for favor) and no higher than +5 stat items. And absolutely no raid loot. All the above are fairly easy to obtain and unless your a new person to the game you should be able to pick most up off the auctions house.

I'm a "new person" and I picked up a +1 Wis tome in my first PuG TS raid last night, as a level 8. I'm sure I'll be able to trade it for any other +1 tome.

[WolfSpirit]

I'm a "new person" and I picked up a +1 Wis tome in my first PuG TS raid last night, as a level 8. I'm sure I'll be able to trade it for any other +1 tome.
Nice pull Quartz, but good luck with the trade. There is a trade thread for your server, I've gotten the VERY few tomes I've pulled in my time of playing sit without a trade for a long time. You may continue with your luck though my friend. Welcome and may your luck continue!

As for the rest, I would like to add...

In Theory it’s possible to create a microscopic Black Hole in a laboratory using a particle accelerator.
Which could fall (or devour its way) to the center of the earth and destroy the earth, and in time, become just a small black hole going around a doomed Star.
Of course the odds are so small that it doesn’t stop scientists from using the accelerator anyway.


To simplify, I think its a very small possibility that new people or even well experienced players each have all the equipment included some of these builds.
Sure, they all have a chance of getting them, but...