Attn: Sarlona RAIDers

[Teufel_Hunden]

First, allow myself to introduce....ermmm.....myself. I am Teufel Hunden. I hail from former Adar. My character names are: Hoggle (13 wiz), Allina (brd 14) and Vetinari (rgr/rg 11/1). Hello and well met.

I like to consider myself a friendly player who gets along with everyone (save for a few who are squelched for being plicks) and I believe i am very new-guy friendly. I have gotten several replies about my play style and attitude, and how many people like to group w/ me. I've made many friends on Adar. Been invited to many guilds, and not blind invites but "you're a good player" invites. I haven't joined a guild (except once a while back). I always pug, save for my wife and best friend, and occasionally his wife.

Now to the meat of the issue: RAID loot mechanics.
1st, i am tired of reading about it. Fight it, Fu@$ it, its all the same. Its going to happen. However, by all means, continue to discuss it and petition it or whatever makes you smile. I just skip those posts now. Unimportant, just thought i'd mention it.

2nd. I like to go on raids. Like i said, i pug alot (read: always). I'm reading on how Guilds and Raid leaders will make rules about rolling on items if you get it, so on and so forth. If you don't roll on the item, or agree to their terms, then you are black listed from further raids. OK. Let me put this out there now. I am not rolling on anything. IF I find something in my box, then i will keep it if I want it. If I don't want it, then I will trade/sell it to someone in the party who needs it. It is my item, and as such, my choice to do with as I see fit.

So, those from Adar who've played with me before. You know me. If you want to ban me from raids, or not play w/ me because of my choice, then so be it. Sorry to lose you as an online friend. All others, MY NAMES ARE: HOGGLE, VETINARI, ALLINA a Dale. I WILL NOT be forced into your raid rules, so if you think like this, then mark my names. Do me a favor, though and let me know your names so when you put up a LFM for raids, I'll know not to ask to join.

Thank you for your time, and Hello Sarlona!

Teufel
Semper fi

PS> To prevent any further confusion, here is some additional information so you don't have to sort through all the hate: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1290345&postcount=31

[Knightrose]

Hmm.

How about if you want something, you roll on it?

Don't pick your raids pick your raid leaders.

[Teufel_Hunden]

Hmm.

How about if you want something, you roll on it?

Don't pick your raids pick your raid leaders.

If that person who gets an item wants to put it up for roll, then sure, i'll roll on it, if i can use it. BUT, it was his decision to do that. It is my decision to not put it up for a roll. I will not ask for a roll on someone else's item. I'm not posting this to debate the mechanics on the Raid loot. That has been posted to death and has come back out the other side. No, i am posting because i wish to let the raid leaders know who i am, so they don't invite me, and so that they will, hopefully, post here to let me know who they are so I can not ask to join their raid. In effect, i am picking my raid leader, as you say. I just need to know who not to pick.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

...
To the OP.
....
I like you.
you make sense to me...
You should be very afraid right now...
And run away.

/HUGwithasloppykiss

:p

Warned you...

[Teufel_Hunden]

Well mrs. Blacksword...

Nice to meet you also. I look forward to questing with you.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

The stuff on the forums about the new raid mechanic has been so heated and pointless...

Glad someone else has a similiar view...
:D

[Kronik]

Im kinda like you in the fact that I run all PUGs. What I dont do is make demands on anyone who has invited me to run with them. Not really sure if that is what your saying or not, but if Im lucky enough to get in a good raid group, then I'll play by thier rules no matter what.

If you dont like the rules, then drop the group, which it sounds like you do anyways, so Im not flaming here. But reguardless of how you play, it is important to respect the wishes of the people running the raid. If you want to start your own raid and call the shots more power to you, but its kind of an a hole move to tag along with a group and then not play fair when the loots to be had.

Bottom line is that its up to the raid organizer to call out the rules early so people like you can drop and go find greener pastures to graze. Somehow I have a feeling that you are the kind of person who doesnt care about anyone else when it comes to loot anyways so this post is probably in vain. Oh well, we all gotta make a name for ourselves somehow!

[Knightrose]

Well I'm telling you right now then if you're in my PUG raid its a free for all. If the item benefits your character and you want it, then there's no reason you shouldn't roll on it.

I'm not down with class favortism. Too much variety in DDO to say things like 'well only a Cleric should get a Wisdome Tome'. That's sassafras!

[Tanka]

Manny, he's talking about the raid system going in with Mod 5, not what it is now. ;)

[HorridForm]

I raid so much it doesnt matter what system is used as long as we all understand it before the chest is open ^^

* I've participated in raids where each player was allowed to pick 1 item. If no one picked the same item as another player then when the chest was opened you would get what you picked if it dropped. All other items not picked are allowed to be rolled on.

* I've witnessed in guild raids all of the players debate who was in need of the item more so then any other person in the group. OMFG Raid items won by debating.

I may not adopt this as a permant raid style, but would definately raid with you just to see how my luck turns out.

[Teufel_Hunden]

Maybe it won't be too bad. There seems to be a few of like mind, and to that, i say ALLO! Pleasure to meet you! At least i'll have a 6 man raid going. LOL.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I can just imagine pug raid where e.g. cloudburst appears for Wiz and giant's snotty used handkerchief appears for barbarian. Debate ensues about swapping items as OP suggest, but since there is no mechanic in the game for simultaneous/atomic swapping of items from a chest it's potentially open for nasty /squelch add shenanigans. :eek:

Garth

[Necro_Jill]

I like your post. If a guild wants the raid to play by guild rules then keep it guild. If you open it to pug it should be a free for all if for no other reason than to prevent drama.

Too much drama comes of raids, I don't think this will change ever. We just have to find common enough ground when entering a raid. Man if you see my lfm up feel free to join. If we want to run a guild raid it will be just that a guild raid. Otherwise you have to play by unpredictable pug rules.

I have my guild toons and super secret unguilded ones as well, so I plan to expect both sides of the fence. This new system should prove interesting to say the least.

Sorry for repeating what has already been said by many.

[Knightrose]

Oh...

:D

[Moonshine]

I dont no, But this thing does bad things to puging raids. as ppl gets greedy. I like the good old fashion loot distribution. leader decides wat class and who and who maynot roll for items. shows unity when guildies accepts the call even when they want the item.

as a result there is not a single guildie of mine tat does not have atleast 5 pieces of raid loot on them. and some well lets just say have over 40.... (everyone no its just a matter of time)

this dynamics does change in pug groups as raids are ran less frequent and the new change gives the deciding powers to ppl other than the leader. So from my point of view less raids are puged and since its designed for mod5. this would be interesting as it shows the true nature of player greed :D

[Catiriona]

All this will do Moonie is make us more careful who we raid with...I know you and the NSR guys will be fair..just like you know our guys will. I rarely PUG...don't concider you guys PUGing, but with the new system I really doubt I will PUG any raids.

[Nuckin]

LOL im not here to flame or nethin but if u seriously pull something u dont need and there is someone in the group that can use it ur either gonna sell it or try to trade it?

Wow just wow man lol u have no respect for fellow players at all. They probably did just as much work if not more then u in the raid and ur just gonna take an item u dont need if someone wont trade u something for it?

Wow just wow lol. I am a guild leader but invite pugs into my party anytime i do a raid no prob, and i have no discrimination if i have all guildies and 1 pug they are all treated equal when it comes to the roll on the loot! Which is how it should be!!

Like earlier today i 4 manned the reaver with 2 other guildies and a pug cleric. When it came to the items nothing cleric specific dropped so he rolled on something that no one really wanted. and if a cleric specified item had dropped it woulda gone to him over favoring guildies.

Go ahead and add all my toons to ur not raid with group man. wow just wow.

And im not saying that u should let people roll on an item u pull that u need, im saying if u dont need it u should offer it to the other people that helped u do the raid that can use it!! cuz without them u wouldnt even be looting that end chest in the first place!!

Try not being so greedy and grow up and have some respect for ur fellow players man!

gotta say it again wow just wow.

[Teufel_Hunden]

*snip*
Go ahead and add all my toons to ur not raid with group man. wow just wow.
*snip*

done. Thank you.

[Nuckin]

lol and i just read ur sig:

"It appears that Sense and Courtesy aren't as Common as we're led to believe"

lol no common sense and common courtesy are very common i guess just not for u since u obviously dont act on them, so y would anyone show u them in return?

lol bored :)

[rnor6084]

lol and i just read ur sig:

"It appears that Sense and Courtesy aren't as Common as we're led to believe"

lol no common sense and common courtesy are very common i guess just not for u since u obviously dont act on them, so y would anyone show u them in return?

lol bored :)

So Nuckin, I am looking at your MASSIVE trade/sell list. You seem to be very generous in RAIDS. Perhaps you could send some of that loot you obviously do not need my way. Its the same as finding something in a raid you do not need and passing it on right?

[Nuckin]

LoL if i actually got ne of that outa the raid and u were there to help me complete the raid then sure but seeing as how thats not the situation then cant help ya lol.

So ur sayin if u were in say the dragon raid on ur barb and u have been dying for the SOS and lets say the wizard in the group gets it and u have nothing for trade he wants so he takes it to vender it? there is no way u can even tell me that u wouldnt be insanely mad lol and if u do then ur lying. just saying man.


Say good bye to tomes and raid loot u want with guys like the op in ur party cuz even if they dont need it there gonna take it despite all ur hard work.

How can anyone even agree with the op? i mean come on, if i was on my sorc and the SOS dropped i would't vender it or trade it off lol i would have any of the tanks roll on it or if u dont want everyone to roll on it play favorites like the tank that contributed most or the 2 handed fighting speced barb wit power attack that would own with it but dont take it just cuz it was in ur chest lol. i mean come on and the favoring thing im still not that ok wit but w/e lol. But i mean man u seem extremely selfish to me.

edit: oh and i give alot of stuff away to people who deserve it! or arent expecting me to give it to them, not so much to people who are looking for free handouts, with the exception of new players that is lol.

[rnor6084]

Just as i thought. No, i do not want nor do i expect you to give me your loot for free. I was using absurdity to illustrate my point. Here are my toon names. Do me a favor and remember them.

BIGGRIN
PHERIN
LEAZRA
JIVUNDUS BELBAUE

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

:)
I was wondering why I was always so frightened of PUG raiding on Aerenal...
Have I moved to a kinder gentiler server...:eek:

Time for the hate!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D :rolleyes: :p

All this time...Nuckin? And we don't know eachother?

Wonder why....

[Invalid_6]

My thoughts.

1. The new mechanic will alleviate many issues with raid loot. Now we all have to barter on items we want, unless we actually pull what we're looking for. Saves me the pain of a barbarian rolling on a +3 INT tome for the skill points. :rolleyes:

2. When you have the star, you call the shots. When I have the star, I do. If I'm running a raid and you join my raid party, I expect that you follow the rules outlined by the leader. If that means rolling for an item, then so be it. I think it's only fair (and what I typically try to do) is outline the expectations, w/ respect to raid loot, prior to entering the quest. This way, if someone doesn't like the policy then we are able to move on and let everyone play the game the way they enjoy playing it.

Thanks for reading :)

[Nuckin]

:)
I was wondering why I was always so frightened of PUG raiding on Aerenal...
Have I moved to a kinder gentiler server...:eek:

Time for the hate!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D :rolleyes: :p

All this time...Nuckin? And we don't know eachother?

Wonder why....

lol Yvonne ive seen u around and u have moved to a kindler gentler server? lol hmmm

ok seriously how am i the bad guy here? so u all are telling me that if u have a raid item in ur chest that u absolutely cannot use and no one will trade u an item u will take it and sell it?

What has happened to everyone? i all of a sudded become the bad guy for giving everyone a fair chance that put time into gettting ready for and completeing the raid. And no i am in no way in favor for this new loot system for mod 5.

K so read this! I want to seriously know from everyone that has posted or that is gonna post that when the new system comes out that if u have a raid item in ur chest that u absolutely cannot use u will either try to trade it to the other party members? or u will simply take it and vender it if no one will trade u for it? am i the only one that thinks that is horribly wrong?

Oh and do me the favor and write my names down Rnor, i dont have many enemies in this game if u actually knew me ud know why, and i am a very forgiving person so if u dont wanna group with me add my names to ur list.

[todd31]

To the original poster... I don't agree with you trading an item that may bind to you and be useless to you. You needed those people to get you through the raid and you will actually have a bidding war going on or just keep the item? I disagree with this logic. I will have to ask what peoples policies are on this situation when in group now because I would let the rest of the group roll but not someone like you. You are the reason people will want to pug less. You should bow out of rolling on anyone else's loot then and make your position known going into the raid if you are inflexible to what is best for the group.

Once the item binds it's vendor trash so why not for the good of the group offer it up? Please announce your position on loot before accepting anyone else's loot as a give me or on a roll. Please drop from any party you ever see me in. Thanks.


Marlak

[Teufel_Hunden]

Todd, if you can post your names, i will add them to my list. Thank you.

I am not posting to debate. I refuse to debate over the internet. Special Olympics and all that. I will not respond to angry posts. I will not be cowed into submission or goaded into a fight. I don't know where all this hate is coming from. All I want is to know names. People don't agree with my views, and that's fine. No need for chest thumping; just tell me who you are and i'll jot you down. Its that simple. As for my stance, nothing is absolute. My Wife, my best friend, and his wife, then friends (in that order) have priority on an item i don't want. Other than that, it will be situational. That's all i will say on that subject.

Now, please, all you need to do is let me know your names. If you want to express your opinion, while I'm not interested in hearing it, you can. But why, except to make yourself feel better and establish dominance by thumping your chest like a silver back gorilla? All you need to do is let me know who you are.

Thank you.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

nope...been told in quests I could not roll on the wiz helm because that was reserved for clerics
SOS was for tanks.
KDS was for rogues...
and if a tome dropped that was for the character that had that particular trait as their main trait only...

was told once my bard should give her sirrocco to the tank.
and that isnt even raid loot.

stuff happens.

leaders favor their guildies...

the world isn't fair.

But if it is my loot. I should have some say in where it goes.

and if the joik wants it bad enough...he will make me a reasonable offer...

rather than give me a hard time for
1.) being unlucky enough to pull my "1 in 6 chance raid loot" and I can't use it

2.) using something someone else wants rather that giving it to someone they think deserves my "1 in 6 chance raid loot"

3.) giving me a hard time for keeping a raid item I could use because they thought they deserved it more.
I have been on more than 50 raids.
I have 2 pieces of raid loot. 4% chance?

KDS and CotSC...

No one in the party had even considered them slightly useful to my bard. At first...

She has been wearing them constantly for 6 and 3 months, respectively.

[Cidolfas]

First, when I'm in a pug raid and I get an item that I want I'm keeping it. When it's an item I don't need, I'll put it up for a roll.

Second, I don't want to be in a pug raid where it becomes "What do you have to offer me for it?" and the highest bidder wins it. But I understand some people play with greed in mind, and I don't discount that as a valid mindset. All I ask is that in the beginning of the raid it's made obvious what the distribution style is. That way, when I join the Titan/DQ/VON/GH/Necro raid and ask, I know to drop instead of wasting my time to wind up with somebody changing their minds when he gets a piece of raid loot I want and the barb can offer him more plat. As long as you're up front about it, I won't have an issue.

I abhor drama. Please, don't produce it just because you're greedy.

[todd31]

Todd, if you can post your names, i will add them to my list. Thank you.

Marlak, Marlik, Marlic, Marliki, Marlika, Marlock and Kilram. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to never have to group with you.

Just so people know, if I pull the napkin out of the Reaver on my barbarian, it will be up for whoever wishes to roll on it. I don't need to profit on a useless item that I pulled. I don't need to force those that worked hard in a raid with me to give me plat or have a bidding war for an item. I will make sure I am in group with like minded people when I pug a raid. I do thank the OP for making me aware that people have a different opinion on how loot should be handled.

It is the OP' choice to do what he wishes, it just not a very popular stance to take and not the right thing to do in my opinion. The new mechanic will take the decisions out of the leaders hands and put it into the players, I just hope we can all make the right choices and not end up with a server full of blacklisted players because of this. Do the right thing.

Marlak

[Teufel_Hunden]

Thank you for your names Todd.

I also say thank you for your post. It was informative, and well spoken. Not an attack against a person. Just you expressing your views in a calm manner. While we may not agree, i can at least respect your decisions. You got your point across without thumping your chest, throwing sticks or poo, and barring your fangs. *salute*. Since you think i'm this horrible guy, allow me to say something.

First off, i am not greedy nor selfish. I almost ALWAYS give money to my clerics in my party. I say "almost" because if I don't have any, i can't give any. You say "how can that be?" "bullcrap" "SHENANAGINS!!". Well i maintain, across all my characters, about 10k plat, sometimes less. WHY? Well, when i can, i give CS wands and anywhere between 2500-3000 plat for one dungeon to the Cleric or Bard. Also, since i play a ranger and bard, i am also buying CS wands and Scrolls of Heal, Raise dead, Mass Aid, Resurrection, Hero's feast, and potions. Lots of potions. Even with a high haggle, it adds up. I don't extort people out of money for items. IF i post something on the AH, my starting price is usually 1/2 of the item base price w/ a buyout of base price. So that Lvl 12 +2 Shocking Burst rapier of pure good vertigo +2 just sold (hopefully) for 9k plat. Now, that's not true figures, as i'm at work and don't have access to the game, but you get the idea. I give a lot of stuff away to my wife and Best friend, even to certain party members that show friendship comraderaie and esprit de corps. On the same token, Since i play a Ranger and Bard, I heal almost as much as the cleric. Either with my Wands or Scrolls. Case in point, my Ranger last night in PoP. cleric stayed out, guess who was keeping the party on their feet? I burned through 3 CS wands that run. My bard is there to lay down some raise dead/resurrect scrolls and the others that are mentioned above. He wands with the best of them. Want to know how much people give me? Take a guess. But i don't complain. never have. In fact, that run in PoP, where my ranger burned out 3 CS wands, I gave THAT cleric 3000 plat.

Now you say i'm greedy for selling my item to a party member. You (not a personal you, general "you") ASSUME i'm going to sell it for 1mil gold or 500k plat or whatever. You (general) think you know me. Well, if i did intend to sell it, it would be for base value. If 2 or more individuals wanted it, then i'll put it up for a roll. Example:
Beginning of Quest:
"welcome to "X" raid. There are no rules to the end loot. Finders Keepers and all that. Feel free to do with the loot as you see fit. Me, if i find something that I, my wife or friend can't use, i'll put it up for either trade or sell at base price. If more than 1 wants it, i'll put it up for roll. Winner gets it at base price. GL and may the force be with you."
*Quest ends*
ME: SoS! ****, can't use it. Honey (my wife), can your pally use it? NO? OK. Friend, Can you? NO? Ok. Hmmm. No current friends in party. Ok. Anybody interested in SoS.."

See not too bad. I would sell the item that i got if I or wife/friends couldn't use it anyway, so no big difference there. I get a little bit of money, they get their item. The cleric(s) get their money. Everyone's happy. If you still think i'm greedy or mean and hateful, then OK. Please think before you judge a stranger's character based off 2 words.

Wow, my fingers are tired.

Teufel
Semper Fi

[todd31]

Ok, it sounded different to me when I read it. This clears up a lot. I understand your situation now and it makes more sense. From what I read before it seemed to sound a bit more harsh. I don't have an issue with what you posted here. There were more than two words posted and I formed an opinion based on them but this seems direct to the point and explains your exact situation. Based on this, no issues on my part.

Thanks



Thank you for your names Todd.

I also say thank you for your post. It was informative, and well spoken. Not an attack against a person. Just you expressing your views in a calm manner. While we may not agree, i can at least respect your decisions. You got your point across without thumping your chest, throwing sticks or poo, and barring your fangs. *salute*. Since you think i'm this horrible guy, allow me to say something.

First off, i am not greedy nor selfish. I almost ALWAYS give money to my clerics in my party. I say "almost" because if I don't have any, i can't give any. You say "how can that be?" "bullcrap" "SHENANAGINS!!". Well i maintain, across all my characters, about 10k plat, sometimes less. WHY? Well, when i can, i give CS wands and anywhere between 2500-3000 plat for one dungeon to the Cleric or Bard. Also, since i play a ranger and bard, i am also buying CS wands and Scrolls of Heal, Raise dead, Mass Aid, Resurrection, Hero's feast, and potions. Lots of potions. Even with a high haggle, it adds up. I don't extort people out of money for items. IF i post something on the AH, my starting price is usually 1/2 of the item base price w/ a buyout of base price. So that Lvl 12 +2 Shocking Burst rapier of pure good vertigo +2 just sold (hopefully) for 9k plat. Now, that's not true figures, as i'm at work and don't have access to the game, but you get the idea. I give a lot of stuff away to my wife and Best friend, even to certain party members that show friendship comraderaie and esprit de corps. On the same token, Since i play a Ranger and Bard, I heal almost as much as the cleric. Either with my Wands or Scrolls. Case in point, my Ranger last night in PoP. cleric stayed out, guess who was keeping the party on their feet? I burned through 3 CS wands that run. My bard is there to lay down some raise dead/resurrect scrolls and the others that are mentioned above. He wands with the best of them. Want to know how much people give me? Take a guess. But i don't complain. never have. In fact, that run in PoP, where my ranger burned out 3 CS wands, I gave THAT cleric 3000 plat.

Now you say i'm greedy for selling my item to a party member. You (not a personal you, general "you") ASSUME i'm going to sell it for 1mil gold or 500k plat or whatever. You (general) think you know me. Well, if i did intend to sell it, it would be for base value. If 2 or more individuals wanted it, then i'll put it up for a roll. Example:
Beginning of Quest:
"welcome to "X" raid. There are no rules to the end loot. Finders Keepers and all that. Feel free to do with the loot as you see fit. Me, if i find something that I, my wife or friend can't use, i'll put it up for either trade or sell at base price. If more than 1 wants it, i'll put it up for roll. Winner gets it at base price. GL and may the force be with you."
*Quest ends*
ME: SoS! ****, can't use it. Honey (my wife), can your pally use it? NO? OK. Friend, Can you? NO? Ok. Hmmm. No current friends in party. Ok. Anybody interested in SoS.."

See not too bad. I would sell the item that i got if I or wife/friends couldn't use it anyway, so no big difference there. I get a little bit of money, they get their item. The cleric(s) get their money. Everyone's happy. If you still think i'm greedy or mean and hateful, then OK. Please think before you judge a stranger's character based off 2 words.

Wow, my fingers are tired.

Teufel
Semper Fi

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

*snip*
and if the joik wants it bad enough...he will make me a reasonable offer...
*snip*

I did say that...
I wonder when I said I would sell it for onbahzilliongillion plats...
Or the highest bidder...?

I said I wanted a say in where MY loot went.

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els...but I bet they got something on them I would like...

:)

[todd31]

I did say that...
I wonder when I said I would sell it for onbahzilliongillion plats...
Or the highest bidder...?

I said I wanted a say in where MY loot went.

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els...but I bet they got something on them I would like...

:)

So, punish the world. I didn't get what I wanted so now all of you will pay. Please just let people know that you would not do the same for them when they out of the kindness of their own heart allow you to take a piece of loot without having to offer up the shirt off your back. If everyone was able to recall the forum discussions and see that you would make them offer up an equal item then I am sure they would not let you roll on the loot they can't use ,not because you weren't the right class but because you would not do the same for others.

I could have swore VCA had a guild full of level headed people. This is not the type of person I expected to run across from this guild. Greed before need I guess.

Marlak

[Grinndal]

So this seems like such a useless thread. I dont run many pug raids but with your greedy beliefs i wouldn't want you to join. So names are in the sig so go ahead and write them down. I know everyone is out to better there toons but come on. I hope you get the boots and forget to take them out your inventory and suddenly cant cast a heal on yourself.

[Teufel_Hunden]

jmccn - names have been added, thank you.

[nater]

this all is so confusing but i feel if i cant use soemthing i want someone to have it that can use it . i dont want to have to pick who gets it or who my friends are by giving it away , if an item drops that i dont want or cant use then i pefer that all interested roll on it .
i dont expect to have to pay or trade for a raid item that drops . the reason we raid it to better our self our equipment , and to learn from each other .
i respect other raiders and there for expect to be respected in turn .
i follow the age old rule . (do unto others as you have them do unto you.)
(you get as good as you give .)
thank you for letting me express my .02 cp worth

[Dragonhyde]

It is up to the raid organizer to set up any "rules" at the beginning and up to each player to decide if they want to quest under those conditions. In a freeform pug I do not see any rules being put up but if you decide to join a guild group more than likely there will be. If you disagree with those conditions then do not stay with the group.

The only issues will come from people pulling the old lightning rod ninja move and grabbing loot and running. Or from people deciding this is their chance to milk as much plat for a bound item as they can get. But those type of people are few and far between and will be weeded out of most raid groups in time.

For myself, if I opt to join a raid with rules then I will abide by them as long as I was told in advance. I have been in situations before where I was not told until the end that I was not allowed to get any loot if you have rules it needs to be clear and upfront. If there are no rules it will be just like any other named item I pull, if I can use it then I will if not then it goes to friends in group or I will just ask who wants this silly blankety blank great sword:D.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I am sorry...This is so hard to read.

So, punish the world. I didn't get what I wanted so now all of you will pay.
Huh...is that what I said? huh...
I thought I said that when I was in pug raids (sorry that was before I was ever in VCA and once when I was in a guild that enjoyed harrassing its members to their friends...but I digress...)
Punish the WORLD?...come on. Lets be reasonable....
I guess asking for something I could actually use and I would consider fair trade...Must always be +5 vorpal, banishing, paralyzing flaming burst, holy burst one handed greataxes...instead of a similar stat item, or a weapon I could use...Sorry...I will be less greedy in the future.


Please just let people know that you would not do the same for them when they out of the kindness of their own heart allow you to take a piece of loot without having to offer up the shirt off your back.
The only RAID items I have ever gotten have been while in full VCA guild raids... Honey...we really don't know each other...do we? I have been on more than 40..(that is pronounced for-tee) raids and I have 3 (got the boots this weekend for my tank[/bootlove]) total raid loot items, 5 capped characters. I usually think my guildies deserve the rewards more than I and I only roll on an item once every month or two...Though I raid twice a week. Ususally..sometimes 3.

If everyone was able to recall the forum discussions and see that you would make them offer up an equal item then I am sure they would not let you roll on the loot they can't use ,not because you weren't the right class but because you would not do the same for others.
...And where you got that from...I have no idea...It ok..you must know me well...


I could have swore VCA had a guild full of level headed people. This is not the type of person I expected to run across from this guild. Greed before need I guess.

Marlak
VCA tends to run all guild raid runs. Because of the fact that we run the raids so that our characters (in the guild) will receive the rewards.
We will rarely invite a PUG member along, usually, that member is well known to the guild officers. And well trusted to be both a good player and that they are reasonable.

The raid mechanic has long been a matter of some contempt to many players on the forums.

Others, who prefer to 2 man the raids, will now be the ones having the problem with it.

Raids were never meant to be run with less than 6 (IMHO) and so there are developing attempts to ensure they are run as intended.

1 in 6 chance of getting loot was intended (IMAO) from the beginning.
The fact that the devs thought we would all get along and play nice and that we haven't has caused them to change the format.

And now, dear forum members, I fear I might have stepped over the edge into the oblivion from which there is no return, I had once put up a thread of those I would miss the most...most of them have already passed into legend...I have tried to struggle on...but it becomes more painful to watch some rip each other apart, make unfounded and unchecked allegations without recourse. I will not allow a misinterpretation of my words defame the name of my guild. If you knew us...You would join us.

Viglin, Bluelightbandit, Ciaran...wait for me!...I am coming!

[Knightrose]

;1289135']My thoughts.

Saves me the pain of a barbarian rolling on a +3 INT tome for the skill points.



Hey man I resent that.

[Kronik]

ME: SoS! ****, can't use it. Honey (my wife), can your pally use it? NO? OK. Friend, Can you? NO? Ok. Hmmm. No current friends in party. Ok. Anybody interested in SoS.."

Teufel
Semper Fi

What if you have other friends in the party? Or a half-friend you know from way back. I guess you gotta really be in tight with you for that common sense thing to start kickin in huh?

Too much drama for me...

[Ciaran]

So, punish the world. I didn't get what I wanted so now all of you will pay. Please just let people know that you would not do the same for them when they out of the kindness of their own heart allow you to take a piece of loot without having to offer up the shirt off your back. If everyone was able to recall the forum discussions and see that you would make them offer up an equal item then I am sure they would not let you roll on the loot they can't use ,not because you weren't the right class but because you would not do the same for others.

I could have swore VCA had a guild full of level headed people. This is not the type of person I expected to run across from this guild. Greed before need I guess.

Marlak

Yvonne is a level-headed member of our guild and she is extremely fair and giving. Beyond that she is a friend and the least greedy person I know. She constantly heals and raises us when we die doing some hair-brained antic or another and never asks for scrolls or gold. She has given away more items to guildies (new members and old alike) than she's traded for. Same thing goes for PUGs (who didn't behave like idiots in a quest, of course).

Your assessment of her is totally wrong and totally out of line. One would hope a fellow player would show enough tact and restraint to not base their opinion of another person (and by extension, a guild) on a simple comment in which it is clear that there's a misunderstanding. She's saying the same thing (in her own way) that the OP clarified in a later post to you and you said you saw his POV and reneged on your earlier statements. Considering she's saying the same thing, I hope you have the maturity and humility to do the same here.

[todd31]

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els...but I bet they got something on them I would like...

:)

You asked where I got my earlier statement from and here it is quoted. You want an equal item to raid loot? Come on. You only after the fact stated that you would take something lesser. At least if you are going to accuse people of misquoting you read back and make sure you didn't say what you claim you didn't say.

Just remember, most would let the group roll on the item that is useless to you if friends, guildies or family were not in the pug. You would make them trade with you though and not put it to a roll? That's pretty lame. Even if it is a lesser item, the thing binds and will be wasted. You are not a very nice person in my opinion to have this approach to loot.

Also in regards to your officers knowing people, they know me as I have grouped with them a bunch on Aerenal. They know me as Marlik, Marlak, Marlika, Marliki, a leader of Clan Doombringer. That is why I can say that I know a lot of you and this attitude is not one that I would expect from VCA.

Marlak

[todd31]

Yvonne is a level-headed member of our guild and she is extremely fair and giving. Beyond that she is a friend and the least greedy person I know. She constantly heals and raises us when we die doing some hair-brained antic or another and never asks for scrolls or gold. She has given away more items to guildies (new members and old alike) than she's traded for. Same thing goes for PUGs (who didn't behave like idiots in a quest, of course).

Your assessment of her is totally wrong and totally out of line. One would hope a fellow player would show enough tact and restraint to not base their opinion of another person (and by extension, a guild) on a simple comment in which it is clear that there's a misunderstanding. She's saying the same thing (in her own way) that the OP clarified in a later post to you and you said you saw his POV and reneged on your earlier statements. Considering she's saying the same thing, I hope you have the maturity and humility to do the same here.

Lmao. You are just way to funny to defend her when I based everything I wrote on her words. If she wishes to put her stance on a subject in a public forum then she will have to deal with the interpretations of her words. I quoted what she said above in the previous post and you saw my response. She stated that she would trade the item for an equal item. She never said once that she would put it up as others would do for a roll.

Please don't come in here and try protecting your guildie who is only receiving responses to her skewed point of view. Let her deal with it herself. I mean I appreciate the character reference and all but come on. She wants to trade her useless to her raid loot for something that is just as good and that she can use instead of putting it to a roll for others that would allow her to roll on their loot should the rolls be reversed? The OP said he would put it up for a roll if friends , family or guildies didn't need it. She just stated it was for trade for equal loot in her post that I responded to. In my opinion, keep her in your guild groups and don't let her pug, she will make herself look bad if she tries to trade raid loot to a raid group when most people feel they would put it up for a roll and expect that level headed people would do the same for them.

If she has a different outlook to this and just hasn't shared it yet then tell her to please state it. At the end of the day it is her loot and she can do what she wishes with it. With the stance she took on trading it for equal loot she left a very poor impression of her self on me.

Marlak

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

You are just way to funny to defend her when I based everything I wrote on her words.

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els(e)...but I bet they got something on them I would like...
ok..you quoted me...but did you read me?
the part you quoted ...about something not seeming to be equal value to somone else?
if i can't use an item then it is worth base value to me...or equivilent stat item (minus the extras) or something...might even be something the owner cannot use...therefore worth base value to them...perhaps.
why is this so hard.

If, however, it is stongly desired by someone that acted the fool, treated others with a lack of respect, or fluffed his/her ego, unendingly...

well...
it might be worth quite a bit more.

I don't ever want to feel obligated to hand over one of my rewards...to anyone...I don't feel...deserved it...for whatever reason.

a guildie gets it free. a worthy ally the same.
an adversary unknowingly, reviled by all?
that individual has to come up with some good reason it should not stay in my guild.

This is how I feel about my loot.

And my guildies?
This is how they are. We defend eachother. We support each other. We run raids together. We share our loot. We enjoy each other's company.
And we stick together...

Ciaran, I told you...

I know you came here because you will not let a guildie go down in flames.
I hate that you had to come back to defend me. But I love you for it.
It does no good. He has an opinion about me that will not change based on fact, intervention of others or any valid argument.
I will follow all the advice I got on this attack on my person and will do what I know I have to do.

[soupertc]

all I can say is WOW!!! This has gotten a bit out of hand!!!! VCA are good peeps, Clan Doombringer are good peeps too. I've run with both of ur guilds......alot. I myself would let the group roll as a whole....even if I myself could use it if I were in a PUG. Guild or buddies....if I could use it take it....if not the others roll. Would I ever trade or sell.....nahhhh probably not. Do I disagree with those who do.....ummmmm kinda, but it's their $15 dollars ya know. Tellin someone how to do Raid Loot is almost as bad as tellin someone how to play their Toon.

Good Luck all.

[hinura]

And this is why I never ever go on pug raids on my cleric---well there are a few exceptions to guilds that I would go with but I would never in my wildest dreams try to auction off loot I couldn't use just because it appeared in my chest.

[todd31]

You were flamed because of a statement you made and then denied making.

I am done posting in response to you.

Marlak



ok..you quoted me...but did you read me?
the part you quoted ...about something not seeming to be equal value to somone else?
if i can't use an item then it is worth base value to me...or equivilent stat item (minus the extras) or something...might even be something the owner cannot use...therefore worth base value to them...perhaps.
why is this so hard.

If, however, it is stongly desired by someone that acted the fool, treated others with a lack of respect, or fluffed his/her ego, unendingly...

well...
it might be worth quite a bit more.

I don't ever want to feel obligated to hand over one of my rewards...to anyone...I don't feel...deserved it...for whatever reason.

a guildie gets it free. a worthy ally the same.
an adversary unknowingly, reviled by all?
that individual has to come up with some good reason it should not stay in my guild.

This is how I feel about my loot.

And my guildies?
This is how they are. We defend eachother. We support each other. We run raids together. We share our loot. We enjoy each other's company.
And we stick together...

Ciaran, I told you...

I know you came here because you will not let a guildie go down in flames.
I hate that you had to come back to defend me. But I love you for it.
It does no good. He has an opinion about me that will not change based on fact, intervention of others or any valid argument.
I will follow all the advice I got on this attack on my person and will do what I know I have to do.

[Ciaran]

You were flamed because of a statement you made and then denied making.

I am done posting in response to you.

Marlak

No, she got flamed because you refuse to try and let her clarify what she means and you refuse to listen to someone who actually groups with this person regularly and has been doing so since she joined our guild and knows what they are talking about.

You know nothing about her, save what you have incorrectly gleaned from a post of hers on the forums. You refusing to listen says nothing about her personally and everything about you.

You sound like you have some sort of grudge or axe to grind, but all you are really doing is creating sparks. I suggest you try to actually listen to other people when they have something to say about a friend. I didn't come here to stir up strife -- hell, you and I have grouped together in the past and I found the experience to be enjoyable -- I came here because I saw that a friend, (first and foremost, that she's a guildie is a distant second) was being misunderstood and flamed. I tried to help by giving some FACTS about Yvonne, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears.

By all means, carry on if you must. At the end of the day you've accomplished nothing but leaving a bad taste in several people's mouths.

Oh, and don't presume to tell me not to come to the defense of a friend. I do what I want when I feel it is necessary and I make no apologies for it.

[todd31]

No, she got flamed because you refuse to try and let her clarify what she means and you refuse to listen to someone who actually groups with this person regularly and has been doing so since she joined our guild and knows what they are talking about.

You know nothing about her, save what you have incorrectly gleaned from a post of hers on the forums. You refusing to listen says nothing about her personally and everything about you.

You sound like you have some sort of grudge or axe to grind, but all you are really doing is creating sparks. I suggest you try to actually listen to other people when they have something to say about a friend. I didn't come here to stir up strife -- hell, you and I have grouped together in the past and I found the experience to be enjoyable -- I came here because I saw that a friend, (first and foremost, that she's a guildie is a distant second) was being misunderstood and flamed. I tried to help by giving some FACTS about Yvonne, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears.

By all means, carry on if you must. At the end of the day you've accomplished nothing but leaving a bad taste in several people's mouths.

Oh, and don't presume to tell me not to come to the defense of a friend. I do what I want when I feel it is necessary and I make no apologies for it.

Look, your guildie is not being misunderstood by me. Her position on loot was made quite clear.

This has all started to escalate to places neither side will wish to go.

Your leader has contacted me over this. I would suggest you drop this right now and let us deal with this as there is much more at stake than a couple people with hurt feelings.

Marlak

[Ciaran]

This isn't directed at any one person as I'm just musing out loud, but I'm shocked this thread has stayed open this long -- I thought threads that said "Do not group with XYZ" will not be tolerated and that seems to be what this thread is (or has become, anyway).

I'm just saying this topic is divisive in nature (or has the potential to become divisive very easily and quickly) and why it's been left open makes me ponder if some lines aren't just drawn arbitrarily and next thing you know, you've stepped over one...

[todd31]

This isn't directed at any one person as I'm just musing out loud, but I'm shocked this thread has stayed open this long -- I thought threads that said "Do not group with XYZ" will not be tolerated and that seems to be what this thread is (or has become, anyway).

I'm just saying this topic is divisive in nature (or has the potential to become divisive very easily and quickly) and why it's been left open makes me ponder if some lines aren't just drawn arbitrarily and next thing you know, you've stepped over one...

There have been much worse that have gone on for far longer. :eek:

Marlak

[Ciaran]

Look, your guildie is not being misunderstood by me. Her position on loot was made quite clear.

This has all started to escalate to places neither side will wish to go.

Your leader has contacted me over this. I would suggest you drop this right now and let us deal with this as there is much more at stake than a couple people with hurt feelings.

Marlak

Fine. I stand by what I have said and I take full responsibility for it. Neither of our guilds should have hard feelings towards the other as this is just between the three of us.

[Ciaran]

There have been much worse that have gone on for far longer. :eek:

Marlak

Yep, which just proves my point about the lines seeming arbitrary.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

To Teufel Hunden,
I apologize for tuning your thread posted in order to fin like minded and un-like minded got turned into The I Hate Yvonne Club...
Honestly, The membership has been dwindiling lately and it needs a new leader.

I also appologize for offending those who disagree with me. It is highly unlikely that I will ever group with people where I am not wanted, so if you join my guilds raid, I will politely make my excuses in officer chat and wish them well.

I hope you all get the raid loot you want. Me?
I just won some last weekend and, true to form, will support raiding in my guild, but will not roll on anything (or accept it if the update comes through before then and the Gods of Lucky Blind Die Rolls grant me one) for at least a month.

You may call me greedy, this is your right.

It is my opinion I should have the right to refuse grouping with those I have had it with.

It is my opinion that if I pull any loot I should have some say in where and to whom it goes.

Our guild regularly runs raids.
I have been with the guild since November and am not a founder.
For a time we were runing up to 4 a weekend.
Recently that has slacked off a bit but we are recovering.

Raid loot I have received
February-KDS> because I was the only light armor wearer in the party able to pull something from the chest, it was awarded without roll.
April-C of the S C> awarded to me without roll when I showed interest after months of raiding and refusing to roll on a single item. Not rolling was an attempt to assure all other regular raiding members and new member had a chance to get some, get some.
August-dragon boots>won the die roll, again, after months of raiding and refusing to roll on a single item.

While the first two are blatant examples of the kindness of the guild, and the third a lucky roll, it does demonstrate that I don't often demonstrate greed above need. But If anyone wishes to have the opinion that I am all about getting my greasy little hands on all the loots loots loots...well, that is your right.
It is my arrogant opinion, that none of my characters need raid loot to be playable. They just aren't build that way. It is nice to have, but not game ending SuX0r not to have.

[Teufel_Hunden]

Well, I don't hate you Yvonne. :)

I am disappointed that the thread turned into what it did. It was not my intention for anybody to be flamed, nor was it my intention for such division. My ONLY intention was to find out with whom *I* personally should not ask to join a raid. The only thing that should have been said is either:
- Hi, my name is Looter McRollsalot, I do not wish to have you in my party. My names are Iliketoroll, Itsmyrules, Guildonly.
- Hi! My name is Lawerence VonLikeminded. You can pug with us anytime. Look for me. My names are Ilikefreeforall, and Itsyourlife O'Dowhatyouwant.

Thank you for your apology Yvonne, while not necessarily needed, was a welcome change.

For any future posters. Please, lets just smile, play our game the way we like, and if not get along, then at least be civil to one another. This from an old Jarhead who's seen to much to be bothered by trifles.

[BlueLightBandit]

Cheers to all those who posted their opinions without attacking others.

Cheers to all those who posted their beliefs about others opinions.

Cheers to all those who remained calm and level headed while particpating in such a heated discussion.

Jeers to all those who felt the need to debase other players because their views did not coincide.

It's sad the forums in general has become this way. It's sad that some people cannot accept the changes that are inevitable. It's sad that people take this game so seriously. It's sad that people are trying to exclude others from grouping them.

But that's the way some people want to play, and it is in no way my place to say anybody else is wrong. It is also in no way my place to criticize another person for their beliefs. I can stress heartily my disagreement with them, but never am I allowed to promote a personal attack on them.

To the OP, kudos for sticking your neck out there. You have a valid point. I wish you would never be excluded from playing with people just because you don't share common beliefs, however such is life, and such is an MMO. To those who agreed/disagreed... I applaud your conversation. To those who actually wrote names down, I feel sad that you have now made your world a smaller place.

If we pug as a guild, everyone is welcome to join. If you get a raid item you cannot use and you think it's best to keep it and sell it at a vendor, fine, that's your choice.

The simple fact is that there is nothing the party leader can do to change that. I hope people understand that very few of the changes Turbine has implemented so far (human versatility, spell points, rogue evasion, new enhancement, etc.) have turned out that bad. Sure some people don't like it, but in the end the game moves on, and the posters on the forum find new things to complain about.

It's just too bad things get personal around here.

[todd31]

It is exactly this type of thread that is needed to get your finger on the pulse of the effects of the new raid loot mechanic. You now know how serious and committed people are to this change and how committed folks are to making sure people do the right things in pugs.

If you have a skewed version of how raid loot works and it is not a popular stance then it is better that you let people know up front. Some of the views that have been posed here will cause a pug a lot more grief at the end of a pug raid. Try spending a couple hours in the Titan raid with a pug to have someone offer up an item they cant use to the highest bidder and then choose to broker it when everyone is mad. Sure you can do what you will with your loot but come on, represent all that is good with you and your guild and do the right thing. If you think the right thing is hoarding a useless to you item that other pug raiders really need with the intention of trading it to the highest bidder or just selling it then you are probably just being a jerk and trying to stick it to the party that you are with and deserve blacklisting and a boot from the party.

I will say this again, make your loot intentions known up front and let the party decide if they wish to keep you. Don't sit there, roll on an item that someone else puts up to a roll and then tell the group that you will only trade your item. This looks bad on yourself as a person, makes your guild look bad and will get you on so many blacklists that every party you join someone will bail on you because of your server reputation. Again folks, in a pug do the right thing. The right thing is let a group know up front your loot beliefs or go with the popular loot opinion once the raid is over. Don't expect to roll on someone elses loot when they were kind enough to offer it up and then expect to get a trade on yours.

As far as personal attacks are concerned, I agree..... I was in the wrong with the flat out attack but my opinion on this topic and the poster that I offended still stands. Maybe she would wish to quote herself and announce a retraction, clarify her view or maybe her statement was bottom line her feeling on the subject. Any way she flat out said that she would look for an equal trade, she knows that someone must have something she needs and in my opinion this is a terrible approach to raid loot in a pug.

I chose to post a follow up to this because it seems that this viewpoint to this argument needs to be explained and I am the one that posed it so....... here I am. This is a great way in my opinion to get to the bottom of this subject, heated or not. I have sat in meetings in the real world where people were screaming at each other and the outcome was that a lot was accomplished and the team was stronger for working though it with high emotions. If you are gonna post in a public forum it is my opinion that you should have thick skin and be able to defend your position. Again, I am sorry that there was a comment made about the caliber of player that VCA accepts but the simple fact is, if you have an opinion to put out you better be ready to deal with the backlash that you may get especially if your opinion is not the popular one. With that being said I will soon take my leave. :D

I ask that everything in regards to past posts go to a private discussion between myself and the VCA leader from here on out. If you have a different opinion on what I said above, please share it but the past issues need to be dealt with by myself and VCA from here on out in a private forum. Feel free to pick apart my stance on the loot and how it should be dealt with as that is what this post turned into.

Marlak

[Teufel_Hunden]

And knowing is half the battle!

GEE EYE JOE................

[Kronik]

But that's the way some people want to play, and it is in no way my place to say anybody else is wrong. It is also in no way my place to criticize another person for their beliefs. I can stress heartily my disagreement with them, but never am I allowed to promote a personal attack on them.

To the OP, kudos for sticking your neck out there. You have a valid point. I wish you would never be excluded from playing with people just because you don't share common beliefs, however such is life, and such is an MMO. To those who agreed/disagreed... I applaud your conversation. To those who actually wrote names down, I feel sad that you have now made your world a smaller place.



Well said BlueLight. No one will ever agree on a right way to do things.

You say that you wish that people would never be excluded from playing with people because you don't share common beliefs. This idea is very possible...its called compromise. You must give a little and take a little in order for this to work. My point was simply to listen to the person who is generous enough to take you on a raid and respect their rules. It is sad to me that some people are not willing to bend from their beliefs and would rather not play. While this statement in itself is a bit judgmental, it is not my opinion, but rather a truth. It is true that if we all bend a bit from what we want to do, then we can all coincide in a much more peaceful and happy game world.

So you don't get to get your loot the way you want! Is that really that big of a deal that you are willing to pass on possible new friendships and miss a possible raid you have been wanting to run. Heck for all we know in advance, you might end up pulling a Vorp or Uber in one of the non raid chests. What is sad is we are here arguing over loot, when it comes so plentiful nowadays.

That being said I will rescind my wish to not want to play with anyone for any loot related issues. If you see me on and need a good player to help, just Haller at me!!!!!!!

[CoolHand_Luke]

ahhh, I feel the love!!! OBTW, if my character cant use an item, it's up for a roll. I don't care how loot is distributed. I don't care if one person sells it, don't care if someone gives it to a friend. With the new loot mechanics it is just like anyother chest now, but with a bound item. I am just worried now and will have to take that extra second or two to make sure I don't click away like at all other chest loot I come across.:eek:

As long as everyone states thier plan before hand on a raid... oh what fun discussins I will listen too for sure, I am good to go. So, please don't add me to any list, on either side... (I hate hate-list):D