Weapon to use for a Bard

[Nitestalker]

I have prolly one of th silliest questions out there :D

I was going to use sickles on my Bard, but I am having a hard time finding any let alone fairly decent ones.

So my question would be, should I switch to somthing more common like a longsword? Or should I take a weapon feat to be able to use somthing like Knopesh, or Kukri's?

Any input and ideas are welcome.

[EinarMal]

I have prolly one of th silliest questions out there :D

I was going to use sickles on my Bard, but I am having a hard time finding any let alone fairly decent ones.

So my question would be, should I switch to somthing more common like a longsword? Or should I take a weapon feat to be able to use somthing like Knopesh, or Kukri's?

Any input and ideas are welcome.

Are you drow/elf? A rapier is your best bet if you are and is a very strong 1 handed weapon with racial enhancements. It is actually the equal of the Khopesh with the racial boost. Personally I find it easier to fit in the enhancements versus spending a feat. A rapier is also better than a longsword.

If you want to go two handed then you don't have much options, quarterstaffs are not great. If you are Dwarf then you would have to spend a feat on greataxe (2h) or dwarven axe (1h) to take advantage of enhancements.

For human/other then taking khopesh is the best choice if you really want to maximize one handed damage.

[Prinstoni]

Are you drow/elf? A rapier is your best bet if you are and is a very strong 1 handed weapon with racial enhancements. It is actually the equal of the Khopesh with the racial boost. Personally I find it easier to fit in the enhancements versus spending a feat. A rapier is also better than a longsword.

Not sure how a 1d6 rapier (17-20 crit) is better than a 1d8 longsword (19-20)(except for maybe the crit range). Longswords are much more common, and there are less creatures with dr to slashing than piercing.

With a Bard you would be wasting enhancements on personal gain to hit/to damage by taking the drow enhancements for rapier/shortsword, which means that you cannot fully spec out your songs. There just are not enough points to do both. Songs enhance the entire group and the latter only enhances your character.

I have tried both ways, and I personally think due to the availability of longswords, dr, and the enhancement points, you would be better off taking improved crit slashing, using longswords, and going with song enhancements.

That is granting that your str is 22 or better, versus going dex based to hit with a finesse feat and peircing feat for your rapiers.

The question should be "which is higher your dex or str?" That is what it should come down to. Either way, I wouldn't recommend taking all the drow melee feats. They just don't compensate what can be done for an entire party with fully enhanced songs.

[Nitestalker]

I am drow, and thought about the rapier/shortsword, but I also have a rogue twf finesse rogue, that tends to take all the good ones :D

Yeah I have thought that using enhnacements to increase thoughs would hinder the enhancements for songs, due to the lowered number of ap's for other things.

My DEX and STR are on par with each other, I think my STR currently is higher, since I am making more of a Melee bard than a healing bard. Of course all the good buffs will be available.

Sounds longswords will be my best bet, hope I can start pulling some nice ones, since I will be starting my rogue ont he favor grind here soon, now that he has finally reached lvl 13.

Thanks all for your input, if anyone has any other suggestions, Im more than happy to listen. :D

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I love using Gwylan's Sword, just for the shaken effect. Although, my bard that hasn't isn't focused on combat at all. It's just the the buffs make it easier :p

[sigtrent]

Why Rapiers are better than longswords...

Rapiers do on average 1 point less damage than a longsword, but they crit twice as often doubling thier base damage. If you do significant damage on a crit, then this crit damage outweights the extra base damage over time.

With improved cricical doubling crit ranges the rapier gets even better statisticly speaking. Indeed for many characters rapier/scimitar is statisticly better than bastard swords and dwarven axes. It still gets edged out by the Kopesh though. Scimitar gets less accolades because fewer characters have access to use it.

That said, if you have a longsword that is better than a rapier you have, then you should probably use the longsword anyhow (unless you are stocked up on the enhancments).

[MondoGrunday]

depends on ur build. if ya have str. then u have to melee (whatever turns your crank as far as swords)
I am drow and went with a fairly high dex after maxing my cha. i took rapid reload and heavy repeater feat and I love it! this is by far my fav toon to play. i buff us and debuff the enemy with my paralyzer or curse spewer.

[EinarMal]

Not sure how a 1d6 rapier (17-20 crit) is better than a 1d8 longsword (19-20)(except for maybe the crit range). Longswords are much more common, and there are less creatures with dr to slashing than piercing.



There is your answer the wider crit range easily overcomes the +1 base damage. The only creatures that slashing affects that piercing does not are zombies and dread zombies I believe which hardly matters.

I personally do not find it hard at all to fit in the drow racial enhancements as well as all the major song enhancements. I stay at lingering song 2 and do not take extra song.

[EinarMal]

The question should be "which is higher your dex or str?" That is what it should come down to. Either way, I wouldn't recommend taking all the drow melee feats. They just don't compensate what can be done for an entire party with fully enhanced songs.

In your opinion which I definitely do not agree with....it is very easy to fit them in without sacrificing inspire courage enhancements.

And yes a rapier is better than a longsword.....especially with the improved critical feat. Even without the racial enhancements and just improved critical it is still better. With enhancements it is even more of an advantage.

Consider a Bard with +20 damage on a swing, pretty easy to get with song enhancements/strength/weapon etc...and assume they have the appropriate improved critical feat. For simplicity we will assume all criticals are confirmed and you only miss on a 1.

Longsword 1d8 (4.5 avg) 17-20 x2:
1-0
2 thru 16 - 24.5
17 thru 20 - 49

Total = 24.5 (15) + 49 (4) = 563.5

Rapier 1d6 (3.5 avg) 15-20 x2:
1-0
2 thru 14 - 23.5
15 thru 20 - 47

Total = 23.5(13) + 47(6) = 587.5

That is without any enhancements at all. It is actually even more of a difference than that since you probably can find some shocking burst rapier that makes the critical difference even more pronounced. If you even take Drow Melee Attack and Damage to level 1 the rapier will DESTROY the longsword as it is already better without it.

[Schmackdown]

The wide crit range on rapiers and kukris is also great for crit-specific effects like puncturing, banishing and smiting. Also nice for the multiplier-agnostic Holy Burst payload.

[nbhs275]

bard weapons range. If your trying for just pure dps and are taking either a melee dip or a proficiency feat then Greatsword is the way to go. If your build is a caster who wants a little melee power then either longsword or rapier for the lack of devotion it needs to use.

As far as quarterstaffs, I use them on my battle bard and im only outpaced by high power fighters and barbarians. 1d6 +13 str+5 weapon+10 PA+6 songs=35-40. Add on the fact that i was easily able to find high power quarterstaffs and it works out well.

[Prinstoni]

In your opinion which I definitely do not agree with....it is very easy to fit them in without sacrificing inspire courage enhancements.

And yes a rapier is better than a longsword.....especially with the improved critical feat. Even without the racial enhancements and just improved critical it is still better. With enhancements it is even more of an advantage.

Consider a Bard with +20 damage on a swing, pretty easy to get with song enhancements/strength/weapon etc...and assume they have the appropriate improved critical feat. For simplicity we will assume all criticals are confirmed and you only miss on a 1.

Longsword 1d8 (4.5 avg) 17-20 x2:
1-0
2 thru 16 - 24.5
17 thru 20 - 49

Total = 24.5 (15) + 49 (4) = 563.5

Rapier 1d6 (3.5 avg) 15-20 x2:
1-0
2 thru 14 - 23.5
15 thru 20 - 47

Total = 23.5(13) + 47(6) = 587.5

That is without any enhancements at all. It is actually even more of a difference than that since you probably can find some shocking burst rapier that makes the critical difference even more pronounced. If you even take Drow Melee Attack and Damage to level 1 the rapier will DESTROY the longsword as it is already better without it.

Here is the thing. I do not dispute the fact that rapiers will do more damage on average, assuming you confirm all crits (assuming) and the creature you are attacking can be critically hit.

However, not many bards will have enough feats to totally spec out on any weapon because a bard is somewhat of a generalist character. Their true power comes from songs and buffing spells.

Longswords are more common, so chances of getting holy/elemental burst of greater bane are more likely (constant damage not needing confirmed crits)

The new dungeons that the devs are comming out with will likely have a lot of npc's with immunity to crits (heavy fort or undead). There are already lots of undead who are immune to crits. In those dungeons, the longsword will reign supreme to the rapier.

[Prinstoni]

The wide crit range on rapiers and kukris is also great for crit-specific effects like puncturing, banishing and smiting. Also nice for the multiplier-agnostic Holy Burst payload.

Very true, but so is a schimitar (17-20 crit range). Which a bard specked for slashing can still use with a -4 to hit without the feat giving the same crit range for those affects of 15-20 (I use one on my bard for his banisher, and he still hits most targets on a 2 or higher).

If you can find a schimitar of smiting and/or a banishing schimitar it will still crit on a 15-20 when you are specked for slashing.

[Vardak]

I have prolly one of th silliest questions out there :D

I was going to use sickles on my Bard, but I am having a hard time finding any let alone fairly decent ones.

So my question would be, should I switch to somthing more common like a longsword? Or should I take a weapon feat to be able to use somthing like Knopesh, or Kukri's?

Any input and ideas are welcome.

Get your hands on a Sirrocco.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

It is always going to depend on what weapons are available/found/affordable and your play style.

I think it is a shame, with the versitility and UMD of a bard to stick with just one weapon type...

She uses longswords, shortswords, rapiers, daggers, sickles, light repeaters, heavy and light maces, morningstars etc...

I hate being tied down to one type with her...She has been a dumping ground for ubers nad semi ubers with race/alignment restrictions...

She has some cool stuff...a lot of RR stat damagers/crowd control weapons...:rolleyes:

She usually prefers to use her repeaters so she can move around and still do damage while working her spells and singing.

But sometimes...she has to get down and dirty with the baddies.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :D

[EinarMal]

Here is the thing. I do not dispute the fact that rapiers will do more damage on average, assuming you confirm all crits (assuming) and the creature you are attacking can be critically hit.

However, not many bards will have enough feats to totally spec out on any weapon because a bard is somewhat of a generalist character. Their true power comes from songs and buffing spells.

Longswords are more common, so chances of getting holy/elemental burst of greater bane are more likely (constant damage not needing confirmed crits)

The new dungeons that the devs are comming out with will likely have a lot of npc's with immunity to crits (heavy fort or undead). There are already lots of undead who are immune to crits. In those dungeons, the longsword will reign supreme to the rapier.

If you cannot critical then the lonsgword is better if you cannot spare 2 enhancement points. Just taking Drow Melee Damage I makes the rapier and longsword equal on average against not critcal mobs and of course much better against everything else.

As for availability rapiers are indeed harder to find so if you have a better longsword then by all means use it. In general rapiers are better though.

[Lillitheris]

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B5&1phed=&1phth=5&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=20&1dex=20&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=20&2dex=20&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

Both have their respective Improved Critical and Weapon Focus feats taken into account. Assuming a strength of 20 and a 10 BAB (14 Bard).

So, with the Drow rapier/shortsword racial enhancements the rapier is better.
As an added bonus, shortswords are also piercing weapons (Imp. Crit. Piercing).

[EinarMal]

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B5&1phed=&1phth=5&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=20&1dex=20&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2str=20&2dex=20&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

Both have their respective Improved Critical and Weapon Focus feats taken into account. Assuming a strength of 20 and a 10 BAB (14 Bard).

So, with the Drow rapier/shortsword racial enhancements the rapier is better.
As an added bonus, shortswords are also piercing weapons (Imp. Crit. Piercing).

The thing is you didn't look at damage with Bard buffs and other things like shocking burst added in. That is more realistic and will put the rapier farther ahead. People don't use plain +5 weapons with 20 strength and no buffs. The more extra damage you get the better the rapier will do.

[Lillitheris]

The thing is you didn't look at damage with Bard buffs and other things like shocking burst added in. That is more realistic and will put the rapier farther ahead. People don't use plain +5 weapons with 20 strength and no buffs. The more extra damage you get the better the rapier will do.

So what you're saying is.. instead of showing a clear example that a rapier is better than a longsword, I should've posted the gazillion different scenarios á la +2 Shocking Burst Rapier of Pure Good vs +1 Holy Burst Longsword? (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B2+Shocking+Burst+Rapier+of+P ure+Good&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B2&1phed=2d6&1phth=2&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=20&1dex=20&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B1+Holy+Burst+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B1&2phed=2d6&2phth=1&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=3d6&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=20&2dex=20&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50) With a plain and simple +5 vs +5 example it's easy to see that a rapier is always better than a longsword of equal properties (Shocking Burst, Pure Good and what not).

Anybody can figure out that when crit-immunity etc. are taken into account, the results will be different. It's just not feasible to represent a matter as simple as this with multiple different variations when the easiest example is enough to prove the point.

[EinarMal]

So what you're saying is.. instead of showing a clear example that a rapier is better than a longsword, I should've posted the gazillion different scenarios á la +2 Shocking Burst Rapier of Pure Good vs +1 Holy Burst Longsword? (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B2+Shocking+Burst+Rapier+of+P ure+Good&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B2&1phed=2d6&1phth=2&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=20&1dex=20&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B1+Holy+Burst+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B1&2phed=2d6&2phth=1&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=3d6&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=20&2dex=20&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50) With a plain and simple +5 vs +5 example it's easy to see that a rapier is always better than a longsword of equal properties (Shocking Burst, Pure Good and what not).

Anybody can figure out that when crit-immunity etc. are taken into account, the results will be different. It's just not feasible to represent a matter as simple as this with multiple different variations when the easiest example is enough to prove the point.

No using 20 strength and no bard buffs to show what weapon a bard should use is not a clear example it is a stupid one. You should at the very least include inspire courage and normal bard buffs to the damage. Your example is misleading because they are not as close as the appear because you are not representing a realistic situation. Someone might look at that and say that they are so close that they might as well use a longsword when in fact with typical weapons and buffs the difference is larger.

[Lillitheris]

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (24 Str, IC: +2 att/dmg, IG: +2 att.) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=&1phth=9&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=24&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B7&2phed=&2phth=9&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=24&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)
+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (28 Str, IC: +4 att/dmg, IG: +2 att.) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B9&1phed=&1phth=11&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=28&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B9&2phed=&2phth=11&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=28&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

Oo, a whole lot of difference right there.

However that's a bit beside the point. I said that with the Drow racial enhancements the rapier is superior. Let's see.

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (24 Str, IC: +2 att/dmg, IG: +2 att. AND for the rapier: (Drow MA/MD II: +2 att/dmg)) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B9&1phed=&1phth=11&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=24&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B7&2phed=&2phth=9&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=24&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

How about providing some examples of your own?

[EinarMal]

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (24 Str, IC: +2 att/dmg, IG: +2 att.) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=&1phth=9&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=24&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B7&2phed=&2phth=9&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=24&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)
+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (28 Str, IC: +4 att/dmg, IG: +2 att.) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B9&1phed=&1phth=11&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=28&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B9&2phed=&2phth=11&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=28&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

Oo, a whole lot of difference right there.

However that's a bit beside the point. I said that with the Drow racial enhancements the rapier is superior. Let's see.

+5 Rapier vs +5 Longsword (24 Str, IC: +2 att/dmg, IG: +2 att. AND for the rapier: (Drow MA/MD II: +2 att/dmg)) (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+Rapier&1bab=10&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B9&1phed=&1phth=11&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=24&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+Longsword&2bab=10&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B7&2phed=&2phth=9&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=24&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50)

How about providing some examples of your own?

No thanks I hate that thing I just calculate it myself and it is too much work to put AC into the calculations because I am too lazy to calculate it. The first two suffice the seperation is much more evident when compared to your first example. All I am saying is that for people to get a sense of how much better a rapier is for a Bard even before racial enhancements you should include Bard buffs which does add more seperation between the two. You first example above clearly shows it. Essentially the higher your strength and damage modifier, not to mention any weapon based critical effects, the better the rapier will do as long as you can critically hit the mob.

[hazur]

Greetings,

If you plan to be a sufficient damage dealer, I would go with a level of fighter and then you can choose whatever weapons you wish (two handers!). Other than that it really does not matter what one handers you use. I usually have a rapier or two, longswords, maces and at least one quarterstaff on my pure 14 bard. Even at 26 strength and buffs he is not getting near fighters on damage, but he can take care of himself. I generally use things like paralyzers and vorpals on him anyway.

-Booser