Dragon Marks Considered Harmful?

[moorewr]

So, I've been busy leveling my new Human Barbarian/Rogue - he's 4B/1R now, and I plan to 12/2 when I'm done. He's got a high INT and DEX, and I'm happy with what I've done so far (Two Weapon fighting, Human Vitality, high UMD, etc).

So, in looking at my feats, I'm mighty tempted by the Sentinel or Passage Marks. Passage would I guess be largely a soloing/convenience thing (I have Barbarian speed boost); although being able to DD or Teleport can save a troubled quest...

Sentinel I can see being very useful for self-sufficiency with the lesser and greater marks. Protection, cool, and the globe of invulnerability I wish I had now. Dude.

So I can really see the power of either for soloing, but I'm not sure they are best use of three of my six feats. Anyone want to share a report from the field?

[Shrazkil]

Few classes can successfully take the dragonmarks without seriously jeopardizing their usefulness. Those classes tend to be Wizard/Fighter/Possibly cleric(if halfling).

For barbarians, i wouldn't do it.

[moorewr]

So, what are your six feats?

I admit all my other characters are casters, so I feel like there is a lot less feat pressure with this guy. :)


Few classes can successfully take the dragonmarks without seriously jeopardizing their usefulness. Those classes tend to be Wizard/Fighter/Possibly cleric(if halfling).

For barbarians, i wouldn't do it.

[Sojourner]

There are so many good feats for Barbarians, and they get to pick so few of them, that it is hard to justify dragonmarks.

In general, just about every barbarian is going to be carrying:
* Power Attack - Since 2-Handed weapons are the typical, the doubling that 2H weapons give this feat makes it very nice
* Improved Critical - Add to the Barbarian's critical range, and you can get a nice string of crits. 13-20 on a falchion is pretty.

Some Other very common ones for the other 3-4 feats
* THF / ITHF / GTHF - Several barbarians take these to improve the splash damage they do with 2-Handed weapons
* Toughess - You can really get some good use of it when combined with enhancements, but not worth taking more than once
* Weapon Focus - +1 to-hit never hurt
* Cleave/Great Cleave - Some take these as an alternative to the THF chain. Gives more damage to surrounding mobs, but less often.
* Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack used to be a common chain, but not so much anymore.

[moorewr]

Improved crit and power attack are definitely on my list. I have toughness already..

I went TWF, having invested in DEX for evasion down the line.

You're right of course that the full dragon mark series takes up too many feats for what you get, when you only get six.


There are so many good feats for Barbarians, and they get to pick so few of them, that it is hard to justify dragonmarks.

In general, just about every barbarian is going to be carrying:
* Power Attack - Since 2-Handed weapons are the typical, the doubling that 2H weapons give this feat makes it very nice
* Improved Critical - Add to the Barbarian's critical range, and you can get a nice string of crits. 13-20 on a falchion is pretty.

Some Other very common ones for the other 3-4 feats
* THF / ITHF / GTHF - Several barbarians take these to improve the splash damage they do with 2-Handed weapons
* Toughess - You can really get some good use of it when combined with enhancements, but not worth taking more than once
* Weapon Focus - +1 to-hit never hurt
* Cleave/Great Cleave - Some take these as an alternative to the THF chain. Gives more damage to surrounding mobs, but less often.
* Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack used to be a common chain, but not so much anymore.

[Thrudh]

There are so many good feats for Barbarians, and they get to pick so few of them, that it is hard to justify dragonmarks.

In general, just about every barbarian is going to be carrying:
* Power Attack - Since 2-Handed weapons are the typical, the doubling that 2H weapons give this feat makes it very nice
* Improved Critical - Add to the Barbarian's critical range, and you can get a nice string of crits. 13-20 on a falchion is pretty.

Some Other very common ones for the other 3-4 feats
* THF / ITHF / GTHF - Several barbarians take these to improve the splash damage they do with 2-Handed weapons
* Toughess - You can really get some good use of it when combined with enhancements, but not worth taking more than once
* Weapon Focus - +1 to-hit never hurt
* Cleave/Great Cleave - Some take these as an alternative to the THF chain. Gives more damage to surrounding mobs, but less often.
* Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack used to be a common chain, but not so much anymore.

Obvioiusly, the first two are pretty much required...

But your list for the other 3-4 isn't all that impressive...

Sure the THF feat chain is nice, but it's not absolutely necessary to be good at DPS... Toughness is nice, but barbarians already have plenty of hit points... +1 to hit is nice, but certainly not the end of the world if you don't get it..

Cleave/Great Cleave are good choices, but again not absolutely necessary to be a decent barbarian...

Really it seems to me, you've proven his point... one COULD play around with Dragonmarks as a Barbarian and not totally gimp yourself (Halfling barbarian with all those cures/heals could be fun)...

Are Dragonmarks the best use of our limited feats? Heck no... There are quite a few feats that make you better at combat.... However, as long as you get Power Attack and Improved Critical: Whatever, you're not going to be a gimped barbarian.... Plenty of room out there for interesting creative builds...

I'm NOT recommending dragonmarks... They are usually the poorer choice... If this is your first barbarian, I'd stick with the more straightforward combat feats... Get Stunning Blow! Fun, Fun, Fun!

But I do think one COULD make an decent dragonmarked barbarian...

[moorewr]

Oh, yes, Stunning Blow is amazing!

I think if I was more focused on soloing that the Marks of Passage and Sentinel would be worth considering, but in a group setting they just aren't as vital.



I'm NOT recommending dragonmarks... They are usually the poorer choice... If this is your first barbarian, I'd stick with the more straightforward combat feats... Get Stunning Blow! Fun, Fun, Fun!

But I do think one COULD make an decent dragonmarked barbarian...

[spifflove]

I took a dragon mark along with the spring attack chain just to look like William Wallace :D

[moorewr]

I took a dragon mark along with the spring attack chain just to look like William Wallace :D

Freeeeedom!

That's as good reason as any, I suppose. :)


Say - I assume no dragon marks on half-orcs?

[RemoJr]

my barbarian (i use the tern loosly as he will be a 11 bar/2rag/1fgt) took the mark of the sentinal and I'm happy with him. I won't take greater mark until level 15 comes out, too many more important feats till then like my TWFing feats, toughness, imp. crit, and power attack. Bonus human feats and proper multi-classing does help.

[Karethon]

On a fairly solid character, Dragonmarks can work quite well. For Barbarians, I think that real benefit would be gained from either the Mark of Healing or Sentinel. My main concern would be whether you can use the abilities while raged.

Half-Orcs can get Dragonmarks, as part of House Tharashk. Those marks help find things that are hidden or lost, so they'll probably get Detect Secret Doors, See Invisible, and True Seeing, as a guess.

[moorewr]

On a fairly solid character, Dragonmarks can work quite well. For Barbarians, I think that real benefit would be gained from either the Mark of Healing or Sentinel. My main concern would be whether you can use the abilities while raged.

Half-Orcs can get Dragonmarks, as part of House Tharashk. Those marks help find things that are hidden or lost, so they'll probably get Detect Secret Doors, See Invisible, and True Seeing, as a guess.

Thanks for the info - I'd been wondering if Half-Orcs get marks. Not being an Eberron PnP gamer...

[DianWeiYan]

Half-orcs are part of House Tharashk and bear the Mark of Finding. I don't know what spells are associated with it though.

[RemoJr]

power choices in pnp for the mark of finding(pnp marks allowd a choice of what each level does):

least: identify, know idrection, locate object, +2 search checks
lesser: helping hand, locate creature
greater: find the path

none of these spells are in DDO and I'm not sure how any of them could be of use. I believe marked half-orcs could make fine rogues with their bonus to search.

[Maldini]

The only Dragonmark I would ever think about taking on a barbarian would be the healing line, but the barb would have to be a halfling.

I would also take a couple of the Extra Dragonmark enhancements. Having 3 uses of the Heal spell as a Barbarian can prove VERY useful.

[Lifespawn]

only thing being you can't use the healing dragonmarks when raged i've bug reported it and no answer yet as to if you should be able to use it.I think you should because it's an inate ability but with rage shutoff comming out it might not be as bad as it was when i considered it.

[oronisi]

only thing being you can't use the healing dragonmarks when raged i've bug reported it and no answer yet as to if you should be able to use it.I think you should because it's an inate ability but with rage shutoff comming out it might not be as bad as it was when i considered it.

I don't think it's a bug. It's treated as a spell/spell like ability/ clickie. It removes combat expertise as well.

[Spakerman]

* Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack used to be a common chain, but not so much anymore.

I'm curious, why do they no longer take this series much anymore? I'm wondering because it's in my plan for the barb I'm making now.

[Maldini]

I'm curious, why do they no longer take this series much anymore? I'm wondering because it's in my plan for the barb I'm making now.


Because a barb's attack score is so high that the -4 penalty from moving doesn't affect us that much and we still hit mobs pretty consistently.

That's a waste of 3 feats on a barbarian.

[Maldini]

only thing being you can't use the healing dragonmarks when raged i've bug reported it and no answer yet as to if you should be able to use it.I think you should because it's an inate ability but with rage shutoff comming out it might not be as bad as it was when i considered it.


No, it would be the same as having the Black Scale Armor in terms of usefulness. If you really need healing, you can always dismiss your rage, then heal. But it's an ability, so they should allow us to use it.

[Taerdra]

Sure the THF feat chain is nice, but it's not absolutely necessary to be good at DPS...

To use an old addage, there are men barbarians and boy barbarians... The THF chain is the easiest way to separate them if both have PA and IC. Proper enhancement choices are the other.

[Sojourner]

Thanks for the info - I'd been wondering if Half-Orcs get marks. Not being an Eberron PnP gamer...


Yeah. The dev's have said that Half-Orcs will be geared towards barbarians and rangers. But I've got no idea how they're going to implement their marks. Bonus to search of course (given pnp version) but thats not terribly useful for either.

I'm betting one of their spell-like abilities will be "Wild Instincts" for a bonus to Listen and Spot. But after that who knows.





To use an old addage, there are men barbarians and boy barbarians... The THF chain is the easiest way to separate them if both have PA and IC. Proper enhancement choices are the other.

And the THF chain is for the boys?

It's a nice chain. But, like has been said above, it isn't a critical set of feats. It adds some DPS, but so do other feats. How much it adds compared to others is pretty setting specific so hard to say.

I would never recommend against anyone taking it. But, I wouldn't call anyone gimp just for their lack of it. (I might based on what they replace it with, but not just for the lack).

[teddok]

No, it would be the same as having the Black Scale Armor in terms of usefulness. If you really need healing, you can always dismiss your rage, then heal. But it's an ability, so they should allow us to use it.

I would have to agree with you on that one.

[Taerdra]

And the THF chain is for the boys?

It's a nice chain. But, like has been said above, it isn't a critical set of feats. It adds some DPS, but so do other feats. How much it adds compared to others is pretty setting specific so hard to say.

I would never recommend against anyone taking it. But, I wouldn't call anyone gimp just for their lack of it. (I might based on what they replace it with, but not just for the lack).

I'm glad you picked up on the joke... but like all jokes there is some truth in it.

If the debate is what feat chains adds the most damage to a barb after you take PA and IC, the THF is better than the rest of the options. Maybe I misread the question

Yes, you can go Stunning Blow... but so what they're dead in 1-3 swings anyway.

Yes, you can Cleave and Great Cleave... but the cooldown timers are somewhat painful and Glancing Blows are constant. I think you would find that Glancing Blows w/ G2HF will contribute more damage.

The rest are things you take after you have your DPS maxed out.

So, yes... 2HF separates the "men" barbs from the "boys" barbs based on the assumptions stated. I never said a "boy" barb = "gimp"... it's still a barb... It just doesn't produce the "wow"s ("... that the fastest I've seen the dragon go down", "... I've never had a fellow barb 4x my kill count before", etc.) that a truly maxed DPS, well-played barb can.

[lobode]

cleave/ great cleave are great for using special effect weapons on multiple mobs, like cursespewing/destruction/paralyzing. THF puts out constant damage on multiple mobs. So it really depends on what your going for as for Dragonmarks on barbs, i would stay away from it, as I believe there is much better Feats out there.
but to each their own, this game doesn't have to be played with a min/maxed toon as the player behind the toon is a big part of how well you do. I will probably never get a dragonmark on any of my characters but i have played with many who where the mark and have not seen any reason to doubt their abilities.