The "Riott" Tank - Original AC Intimitank

[Riot]

About Riott
As a DDO Player I've been playing since Alpha testing. Approximately 1 year prior to release.
As a DnD Player I've been playing since 1980 and continue to play today. I've been a play tester and a game designer all through out the latter part of the 80's and up until as recent as 2004.

**Anyway guys, All that being said, as of March 2010, I have cancelled my account, and I am retiring.
It's been fun, the imput here has been fun, both the good and bad. This thread sums up a ton of info and feedback and really goes back qutie a ways into DDO lore and how the game has changed.
Thanks all for keeping this thread alive and from what I can tell pretty popular.
I'm glad you've all enjoyed this build, and/or gleamed ways to customize and make your own builds.

Take care,**


So what made me design this build?
It was obvious in the early days of testing that DPS was going to be the "BLING" of DDO.
Finger fighters(aka sorcs) and damage dealers were going to have alot of fun in this system.
However in Alpha testing there were not many players on line at once at all, and the conventional group makeup was not always there.

I saw the definite need for a Defensive minded Intimitank build that really cut down on the expenditure of party resources. Especially if a Cleric was not available. And that was quite often.

It turned out really well. And even though with the high numbers of players on line after release, the defensive intimitank still acts in many ways to conserve party resources. It's not a build you "need" to have 2-3 of to be good. It only takes one to maximize a party's resources, but at the same time, having more does not cripple the party by any means.


The Riott Tank
=========================
The Riott Tank is a Pure Fighter Build that provides a High Intimidate, High AC, and High Saves while maintaining the capability for a respectable Damage Output. Because it stays straight Fighter it maintains the maximum BaB, and can feed off Paladins Auras and virtually any buff, which makes the top end of this build VERY HIGH in optimal conditions. And because it does not multi-class it is very Feat heavy. Which allows for extra HP on the back end.

Staying straight Fighter also keeps it attuned to gaining the most optimum fighter Enhancements as well.
The Riott tank is also geared for the Stalwart Defender PRC Enhancements.
But someone who values more balance could even make use of the Kensai Line of enhancements as well.

Please make a note of this.
AC builds in DDO are very gear dependent. While you can be quite good with basic gear, the top end AC builds do alot of raiding and crafting to get the optimum stuff. But as they say, "If I can do it, you can do it."

The Riott Tanks skills are superb. Intimidate, Jump, Tumble, Balance, and even other peripheral skills turn a healthy positive modifier to round out the character. That's the advantage of being human and the higher starting INT score.

A build like this however, comes with several understandings.
You're not going to out damage Raging Barbarians, Tempest Rangers, and Kensai. Accept it, and move on.
You can however do some excellent damage in 2 hander mode. But again, this is not your primary purpose and will always be a bit behind the mainstream DPS builds.

Secondly, this does require a certain nack or skill to play. Some folks aren't as "twitch" or are too "offensive minded". And they'll give up on it or defame it. A lot of people don't have the skill or patience to use the Intimidate skill very well. That's just the way it is.

**Evasion**
The choice to not take Evasion was simple.
Your Reflex saves are just as high as most hybrids, and evasion only applies to Successful Saves. With resist and protection gear a successful save will result in zero damage from the most popular AOE spells already. Casters rarely get to hit you 2-3 times with them anyway. And the benefit of not having to take 2 levels to get this ability come in the way of HP, BaB, Feats, and Enhancements.

The Riott Tank is a defensive minded hybrid for lack of a better term.
It's between a Totally Defensive build and a True Hybrid.
Being as defensive as possible while maintaining respectable offensive capability.

The Stalwart Defender Enhancements though push it toward a very defensive build.
While the Kensai line would put you more into the true hybrid category.

So without much further adieu, The "Riott" Tank Build.
=================================================
Race = Human

Attributes to start (28 points)
----------------------------
Str = 16 (10 pts)
17 at 4th lvl, 18 at 8th, 19 at 12th, 20 at 16th, 21 at 20th

Dex = 14 (6 pts)
Con = 12 (4 pts) (14 - 6 pts in 32 point build)
Int = 14 (6 pts)
Wis = 10 (2 pts)
Cha = 8 (0 pts) (10 - 2 pts in 32 point build)

Base Feats By level
F= Fighter Feat
H= Human Feat
-------------------
1- Luck of Heroes
1F - Dodge
1H - Lightning Reflexes
2F - Weapon Focus (Slashing)
3 - Iron Will
4F - Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
6 - Toughness
6F - Improved Shield Bash
8F - Improved Critical (Slashing)
9 - Skill Focus: Intimidate
10F - Combat Expertise
12 - Toughness
12F - Greater Weapon Spec. (Slashing)
14F - Shield Mastery
15 - Toughness
16F - Power Attack
18 - Toughness
18F - Improved Shield Mastery
20F - Greater Weapon Focus (Slashing)

Alternate DPS increase version
**Requires +3 Dex tome**
F= Fighter Feat
H= Human Feat
-------------------
1- Luck of Heroes
1F - Dodge
1H - Lightning Reflexes
2F - Weapon Focus (Slashing)
3 - Iron Will
4F - Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
6 - Toughness
6F - Power Attack
8F - Improved Critical (Slashing)
9 - Skill Focus: Intimidate
10F - Combat Expertise
12 - Toughness
12F - Greater Weapon Spec. (Slashing)
14F - Shield Mastery
15 - Toughness
16F - Cleave
18 - Two Weapon Fighting
18F - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
20F - Greater Two Weapon Fighting

==================================================
Skills Synopsis:

This is one of the Strengths of this build.
Level 20 = 115 skill points.

Intimidate - Base skill at high level you want to be in the 45 area. That will get most things all the time.
However, in the high end there's some mobs that require 50+ to "Never" fail on.

Also invest in Balance, Jump, UMD, Tumble, and whatever else floats your boat. You have tons of points.

==================================================
Action Point Synopsis:
With the ENH system now there's no "Sure fire" layout, because equipment will play a big factor especially in gaining EVEN numbered Attributes.

So Below is a synopsis of "Must Haves" for the TANK Type fighter.
The rest of the points are up to you.

MUST HAVES
Fighter STR - (between this and Human adaptability take what you need to provide an EVEN numbered STR score)

Fighter Weapon Alacrity at level 20 is a must. It is the capstone after all!

Human Versatility X (with the new elite mobs and increased elite bosses, the versatility of this ENH far outshines the fighter action boosts which must be taken separately) This is very nice to have, until you need to have Fighter Armor Boost for Stalwart Defender.

Fighter Intimidate 4
Armor Mastery (as high as needed to accommodate Dex) being a Stalwart Defender reduces this number
Tower Mastery (as high as needed to accommodate Dex) being a Stalwart Defender reduces this number
Toughness 3 or 4
Racial Toughness 2

Human Recovery 2 or 3
Item Defense 1 or 2 (for Stalwart Defender)

Human Adaptability : This is where Human pays off, being able to round out a Stat to the next Even number is BIG. It can save on ENH points and really helps when choosing gear.

**NOTE** this doesn't spend all your points....


==================================================

Stat reasons:
16 STR - as high as you can afford, and increase it with every bonus stat.
14 DEX - Mithral Full Plate will allow the extra AC, you get access to Dodge feat. (prereq is 13) and REFLEX Save is 1 higher. This alone will help you avoid those AoE's when yer taunting.
12 CON - As much as you can afford. Fort saves are a fighters main save anyway, so this is only really boosting HP. and you'll easily peak over 400 by level 20.
14 INT - Combat reflexes requires the 13. And for a 14, you get 13 more skill points over 10 levels. So it's worth it to take at level 1. Skills are not just trash stats in DnD.
10 WIS - avoiding the negative will save modifier.
8 CHA - the one thing you use CHA for is Intimidate, and it's a class skill you can max out. Boost this with magic when you can to defeat the negative modifier.

==================================================

Over the years I've been asked many times what my equipment is.
Gear takes on many combinations depending upon what I'm trying to achieve. So there is no set configuration.
However here is a list of the major items that I use regularly.

Gear Layout
=================================

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune, Blood rage Symbiont (Adamantine Ritual), Pouch of Jerky, Mummified Bat, Voice of the Master, Pearl of the Sirens, Bloodstone

Head: Intimidate +15, Helm of Mroranon

Eyes: Triple Negative Goggles with Alchemical Saves Ritual (Shroud) - full immunity line.

Neck: Stalwart Necklace, Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Weave Neclace of Mineral (Shroud) with Alchemical Saves Ritual, Amulet of the Stormreaver x2, Golden Cartouche

Back: Jungle Cloak X2, Greater Sonic Cloak, 45 Resist cloaks from Shroud (Cold, Electricity, Fire), Zephyr Cloak, Ice Cloak

Armor: Dragon plate with Greater False Life, Dex +6, +4 Insight AC Bonus, & Alchemical ritual, White Dragon Scale armor, Black Dragon Scale Armor

Wrists: Leviks Bracers, Chaosguards

Gloves: Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Weave Gloves of Mineral (Shroud), Bramble Casters, Spectral Gloves

Rings: Cinder's Ring, Chattering Ring, Seal of the Earth, Ring of the Djinn, Tumbleweed

Waist: Vorn's Belt, Daggertooth Belt, Belt of Mroranon, Belt of Brute Strength, Lion headed Belt Buckle

Boots: Boots of the Innocent, Madstone boots, Gyroscopic Boots, Kundarak Delving Boots

Shield: Levik's Defender, +5 Mithral Tower of Bashing

============================

Weapons

Triple Positive Longsword and Scimitar.
Mineral 2 Longsword - transmuter
Shining Crescents
Sword of Shadows
Standard Fun pack (Vorpal, Wounder, Disruptor)

Don't need Ghost Touch due to spectral gloves.

[Borror0]

Did you reconsider the efficient level for Figther Toughness since Mod 4.2? I know you have removed your con item, so I guess you hve also increase your fighter toughness?

[Tanka]

Riot, might you be working on a new fluff explination for Mod 4.2 now that it's out? The stuff you have now is woefully dated and may cause confusion and/or incomprehension with new players.

[Riot]

yeah yeah yeah... let me get the old post back first... still a little miffed they trashed a post on the front page with over a gazillion views...

[Tanka]

I doubt it was intentional, but, yes, it is a bit frustrating to lose such a thread.

[Maldini]

Especially since we lost a lot of valuable discussions in the many posts and pages of those older build threads.

[xberto]

My main toon, Gutter, was a dwarven version of the Riott Tank however with shards he has evolved into more of a tactical fighter. Gutter has become pretty successful so I thought I would start another fighter based on this build.

This time I'd like to stay more true to the build as an AC Intimitank. The only changes I have made are first; I decided to go with bludgeon weapon focus. My other toons are slashers so I wanted to build one that can use all the fine bludgeon weapons I find. The question I have is do bludgeon weapon feats affect shield bash?

The other change I made was swapping the feat positions of Iron Will and Toughness. I had a hard time getting the Riot recomended enhancements without have toughness earlier in the level progression.

With my extra Enhancements I'm going to take some AC action boost perhaps even dropping Toughness 3 for more of an AC boost however I'm still working this out.

Another thought was changing Iron Will for Bull Headed.

Anyway looking forward to the fun and how about my question concerning bludgeon weapon feats working on shield bash, anyone know for sure?

[Borror0]

No, blunt focus = no better SB.

[Riot]

Sure about that?

I thought Blunt Focus was supposed to affect Shield Bashing.
At least that's what we were told many moons ago.

[vyvy3369]

From looking at my character sheet, it doesn't appear that bludgeoning focus/specialization helps shields. @ BAB14 & 30 str I'm seeing +24 to hit and +5 damage with a heavy shield and +22/+5 w/ TS despite GWF:B & GWS:B.

[Maldini]

From looking at my character sheet, it doesn't appear that bludgeoning focus/specialization helps shields. @ BAB14 & 30 str I'm seeing +24 to hit and +5 damage with a heavy shield and +22/+5 w/ TS despite GWF:B & GWS:B.


I wanted to see if Improved Crit works with shields, but I'm too lazy and cheap to burn Shards on it :)

[Borror0]

Sure about that?

I thought Blunt Focus was supposed to affect Shield Bashing.
At least that's what we were told many moons ago.

Well, it SHOULD, but it doesn't.

[vyvy3369]

I wanted to see if Improved Crit works with shields, but I'm too lazy and cheap to burn Shards on it :)
Crits are 20/x2, so no.

[Maldini]

Crits are 20/x2, so no.


Yeah? Are you saying you have Improved Crit Bludgeoning on one of your characters?

[vyvy3369]

That's correct.

I remember this coming up a long time ago, but have no idea what the result was at that point. The website doesn't list shields under the Bludgeoning line of feats currently either, so unless it's a display bug, WF:B, GWF:B, WS:B, GWS:B, and IC:B do not apply to shields.

[Malachi_Stormlight2]

That's correct.

I remember this coming up a long time ago, but have no idea what the result was at that point. The website doesn't list shields under the Bludgeoning line of feats currently either, so unless it's a display bug, WF:B, GWF:B, WS:B, GWS:B, and IC:B do not apply to shields.

That sucks, it should, they are a bludgeon effect. Heck it even lists bludgeon on your inventory sheet next to the bludgeon damage the shield does.

[Maldini]

Yeah I thought according to PnP rules that bludgeoning feats should work on shields.

[vyvy3369]

The weapon categories was a DDO construct. PnP Feats require you to select one weapon to gain the benefits of those feats.

[Maldini]

The weapon categories was a DDO construct. PnP Feats require you to select one weapon to gain the benefits of those feats.

Bad news for bashers, but the devs should be more consistent. If they're gonna let the barb critical rage apply to shields, they should let Improved Crit apply to shields as well.

Looks like I need to post in the Dev forum.

[binnsr]

Sure about that?

I thought Blunt Focus was supposed to affect Shield Bashing.
At least that's what we were told many moons ago.
I tested this out back in beta .. it didn't work then, and to my knowledge, hasn't been changed since then.

[Riot]

Time for some Dev posts... I suppose.

[Riot]

Note to Self: More Jungle Cloaks!!!!

Those things kick much booty.

[Tanka]

Note to Self: More Jungle Cloaks!!!!

Those things kick much booty.
The Titan cloak? I prefer the Jerky myself.

But yeah, Heal over Time rocks.

[Blazer]

The Titan cloak? I prefer the Jerky myself.

But yeah, Heal over Time rocks.

Why not both? Throw in a Troll Ring and now you've got a fun regen rate going - assuming they all stack and I don't see why they wouldn't.

[Tanka]

Why not both? Throw in a Troll Ring and now you've got a fun regen rate going - assuming they all stack and I don't see why they wouldn't.
I know the Cloak and Jerky do not. Had a guildy test it, ran it Cloak then Jerky, and then tested Jerky then Cloak. Non-stacking, and the Cloak actually runs shorter than the Jerky does.

Not sure on the ring, as I don't know anyone in my guild with on. I do know one person, so I might ask him if I can borrow it to test it.

[Blazer]

I know the Cloak and Jerky do not. Had a guildy test it, ran it Cloak then Jerky, and then tested Jerky then Cloak. Non-stacking, and the Cloak actually runs shorter than the Jerky does.

Aww that makes me sad. :( Well, good to know so I'm not lining up for the next time the Cloak drops; I've got the Jerky already.

Sorry Riot for the mini thread hijack.

[Tanka]

Aww that makes me sad. :( Well, good to know so I'm not lining up for the next time the Cloak drops; I've got the Jerky already.

Sorry Riot for the mini thread hijack.
Just think of it as a mini-Jerky shot (without the Neutralize Poison or Remove Disease) for when you run out of Jerky charges. :)

[Riot]

What's the heal rate of the Jerky?
And how much does it heal?
And what slot is that taking up? Trinket?

[Tanka]

What's the heal rate of the Jerky?
And how much does it heal?
And what slot is that taking up? Trinket?
Every 4-6 seconds (I'll test it, uh, tonight? I think I'll have time).
2/count.
Trinket.

It lasts 5min for the Heal part, with the Neutralize Poison lasting 10min.

It also provides Greater False Life and Heal +13, which on my Wis 12 Fighter, heals about 100HP at a shrine.

[Blazer]

And of course, you don't need to leave it in there all the time. You can keep your Head of Good Fortune on full time, but swap in the Jerky, Eat Jerky, then put the Head of Good Fortune back in (or whatever other trinket you're sporting these days Riot). I do this on my fighter/paladin all the time.

[Tanka]

And of course, you don't need to leave it in there all the time. You can keep your Head of Good Fortune on full time, but swap in the Jerky, Eat Jerky, then put the Head of Good Fortune back in (or whatever other trinket you're sporting these days Riot). I do this on my fighter/paladin all the time.
Same. I leave the Mummifed Bat in almost all the time (unless I'm in a quest where I know I won't need FF to go through).

[Riot]

2 per Tick? That's it?

Jungle Cloak does 5 per Tick.

Yeah I know about the swap trick, I have 2 Jungle Cloaks, and use them like Regen Potions. Swap, Activate, Swap Out for Blur Cloak/Resist Cloak, and keep going while I regen at 5 per Tick.

[Tanka]

2 per Tick? That's it?

Jungle Cloak does 5 per Tick.

Yeah I know about the swap trick, I have 2 Jungle Cloaks, and use them like Regen Potions. Swap, Activate, Swap Out for Blur Cloak/Resist Cloak, and keep going while I regen at 5 per Tick.
The Jungle Cloak is a 2min Regen, if memory serves.

The Jerky is also GFL (static)/+13 Heal (static)/Neutralize Poison 10min/Remove Disease in the Trinket slot. That is what makes it so powerful, IMO.

[Riot]

Yeah that's cool.

But Poison and Disease can also be taken up in many many spots.
And with Potions and Clickies galore.

As a Tank, I want the max regen per tick I can get.
And the Jungle Cloak does that better.

I was curious about the jerky pouch though. I knew everything about it except the healing factor. Which is obviously lower due to it's other benefits. I may grab one some day for consolidation purposes. it's a nifty little item.

DQ raid just has so many cool things in it.

[Tanka]

Yeah that's cool.

But Poison and Disease can also be taken up in many many spots.
And with Potions and Clickies galore.

As a Tank, I want the max regen per tick I can get.
And the Jungle Cloak does that better.

I was curious about the jerky pouch though. I knew everything about it except the healing factor. Which is obviously lower due to it's other benefits. I may grab one some day for consolidation purposes. it's a nifty little item.

DQ raid just has so many cool things in it.
Agreed, DQ is actually where most of my raid loot is from. Seal, Cloak, Gloves, Kukri, Jerky (almost had a second last night, but two members didn't have on yet so I acquiesced), have a Belt in the bank...

So many great raid items.

[Riot]

The Belt Eludes me..... Thus far.....

Got the gloves finally.

[Riot]

Jungle Cloak plus Human Recovery 2... Regens at 6 Hp per tick instead of 5.

This ups the regen from 100 HP to 120HP.

Pretty sweet.

[Blazer]

Oh very cool. The only people I know with the Jungle Cloak aren't human characters, so I had no idea that would work. Hmm, I'll have to see if I know any humans with the Jerky from DQ also. Although, with only a 2 HP regen per tick, one would need Human Recovery 3 to actually see an increase from 2 to 3 HP per tick, right? 2 x 20% = .4 (rounded down I would imagine) whereas 2 x 30% = .6...would this get rounded up?

[Riot]

The Belt Eludes me..... Thus far.....

Got the gloves finally.

Belt is Mine at last.... I posted the Porcupine motif in another thread.
It's pretty funny to watch mobs kill themselves on your DR... Takes a while, but still funny.

[Riot]

I picked up the Jerky Pouch last night... With Human Recovery 2, it still goes at 2 per tick.

[Riot]

I just reached 57 AC unbuffed.
That's with Combat Expertise on.

And that's 61 AC with a Paladins Aura. For those who are keeping track.

[Borror0]

I just reached 57 AC unbuffed.
That's with Combat Expertise on.

And that's 61 AC with a Paladins Aura. For those who are keeping track.

Mind posting the break down, I'm always curious about that... :p

[binnsr]

aye .. same here.

[Blazer]

Just a guess here but I'd say Riot landed himself a +3 DEX tome and shifted his enhancements around to bump himself to 24 DEX. Maybe then added another point of Protection from a +4/5 item?

I don't know, just wild speculation here honestly since I don't know how expensive the enhancement line for FAM gets when you need to bump the max DEX bonus on +5 MFP from +3 to +7, ditto for the Tower Shield Mastery line from +4 (+5 MTS) to +7. That's a pretty hefty investment down two enhancement lines.

[Riot]

Curently...

+10 Base
+13 Armor, +5 Mith Full plate
+9 Shield, +5 Mith Tower of Bashing
+3 natural armor - Seal of Earth
+6 Dodge AC - Dodge Feat, Chattering Ring, Chaosgards
+5 Protection Necklace
+5 Combat Expertise Feat
+6 Dex Modifier (armor and Tower mastery required)
-------
57 AC (58 AC with Parrying weapon, But I don't usually use that)



+4 Paly Aura
-------------
61 AC

Simultaneously I can have 322 HP in this Unbuffed state as well. For those who are curious about the effect this has on HP.
However I usually run with 292 HP. (basically, my greater false life item does not replace an AC item)

[binnsr]

Just a guess here but I'd say Riot landed himself a +3 DEX tome and shifted his enhancements around to bump himself to 24 DEX. Maybe then added another point of Protection from a +4/5 item?

I don't know, just wild speculation here honestly since I don't know how expensive the enhancement line for FAM gets when you need to bump the max DEX bonus on +5 MFP from +3 to +7, ditto for the Tower Shield Mastery line from +4 (+5 MTS) to +7. That's a pretty hefty investment down two enhancement lines.

It's 18 APs to put a +6 Dex bonus on a MTS/MFP combo..

[Borror0]

It's 18 APs to put a +6 Dex bonus on a MTS/MFP combo..

Dwarf w/ Daggertooth FTW!! Now, all I need is a +3 Dex tome...

[binnsr]

My 48 standing (63 turtled) AC rogue loves the daggertooth belt .. I was referring to this build in particular (which is human, and a pure fighter - so the daggertooth belt wouldn't stack with his own Fighters Armor Mastery and Dwarven Armor Mastery isn't availabe.)

[Borror0]

My 48 standing (63 turtled) AC rogue loves the daggertooth belt .. I was referring to this build in particular (which is human, and a pure fighter - so the daggertooth belt wouldn't stack with his own Fighters Armor Mastery and Dwarven Armor Mastery isn't availabe.)

Yeah, I know all of this. I was showing of how ubah I was.

[Riekan]

Riot,
You have elluded in previous posts to having put UMD on Riott. What is your current UMD skill? Staying pure fighter, can you get it high enough to equip rr gear? I have a set of level 10 elf/drow +5 MFP that has a difficulty of 20. I'm pretty sure i can get there, but it would be a pain in the butt. Best I can figure would be:

7.5 Ranks
3/5 Cartouch/7 fingered gloves
2/3 4/6 Charisma item
4 GH
1/2 Luck item (I don't currently have one)
3-5 HV If you went down that road. Might make more sense now that you
can use them for AC boost too.

So I can get to 20, but it seems like a tough thing to do. What are your experiences?

[Riot]

Yes you can hit 20+.

There's also Command, and Persuasion gear you can use. to help that as well.
Bard songs also boost you when you run with bards.

Not all rr gear is 20 either. 20 is just that top end magic number.
But do keep in mind raising the level cap to 16 will add another 2 to your UMD as well. (sorta,,,, it goes from 7.5 to 9) The .5 doesn't do anything for you at this point.

[Riekan]

Riot,
If you were starting from scratch, would you consider changing a feat for Bastard Sword on this character is you had some nice ones already waiting, and if so, which feat would you drop?

[Riot]

The B sword / Khopesh question....

Well, it would have to be something completely off the wall amazing. (and I can't think of anything that would make me do it now).

But if I "HAD" to.... hmmmmm.... I guess Greater Weapon Focus would be the one to bite the dust...

Honestly, Longswords are not that far behind the Bsword and Khopesh, and comparitively, they are EASY to get.

[Riekan]

I agree that the BS is not typically that much better than longswords. The reason for my question is that I already have +3 Vorpal, +2 Paralyzer, and a few greater banes. I do not have this kind of loot stockpiled for longswords, so I was at least thinking about it.

[Riot]

Word of advise....

Vorpals and Paralyzers are vastly overrated.
Yes I've had both. (for those who think I've not tried them)

Running in a higher end guild, NOBODY uses Vorpals. And only some select archers use Paralyzers with any regularity. Otherwise it's just a toy someone breaks out every once in a while.

[Desteria]

I had the oportunity to run the abbot Preraid with riott the other day, I know the raid well, got melty lots of tiem tryign to figure questions out, and had saced mroe the one char alreay so i know the raid.
Was runnign with my Old tactics fighter, now really just a 2hd fighter that is smart, I know how much damage I noramly take and other guild 2hd tanks take, and I must say, with me and Riott in teh group it was smother I took almost nothing, his AC and intimidate, I saw stuff swarm to him after I'd just lit it up with Glancing blows, played well at least this build Does ROCK, sure at the end i had twice his kills but the dmaage taken was way less and the speed of quest was realyl now lower as the celrics had more time more time to use offesive spells.
Don't knwo if I'd want every tank in a gorup to be this build but having one of them and one or 2 other DPS builds is great, would definetly work nice with barbs in the group.

For refernec:
my build while noramly running 2hd DPS, still maintains 40+ AC, and hits, Mid 50's+ if I pull out my shield and turn combat exper on.
10 base
+14 Armor (white dragon)
+4 deflection (WDA)
+5 Dex (FAM2, DAM2)
+7 heavy sheild +5
+5 Dodge (cayos guards/Chatting ring
+5 Combat Exper
+1 pally self aura
+4 Nat armor (madstone click or curs It's realyl up most of the time +3 back up potion)
55 unbuffed.
Probably swapign Dodge feat back in soon never use stunning blow any more.
56.
If I actuly worked on AC I would have to look at enhancments to fit in some Tower mastery either get a +5 mith and level 1 or level 2 with my SR one.
for 58 ac.
+4 vs giants :).
No intimidate so would have problems holding attention against DPS fighters :)


In short Riott rocks, this build works well and rocks when combined with 1 or 2 DPS built melee's int he group at the same time.

[Desteria]

Word of advise....

Vorpals and Paralyzers are vastly overrated.
Yes I've had both. (for those who think I've not tried them)

Running in a higher end guild, NOBODY uses Vorpals. And only some select archers use Paralyzers with any regularity. Otherwise it's just a toy someone breaks out every once in a while.

I'd think my guild is up there I would say vorpals are definetly more situational now then they used to be, BUT they area great for things that have rediculess DR&/or huge HP, mostly it's lower str Two weapon fighting build that still use them, as buy odds they will vorp once in 3 attack sets.

I rarly ever use mine now except for stuff like orage named vamps, and some times other vamps(depends if the other peopel are vorping or DPSing), beacsue I have had poor luck getitng a great weapon for them, and they save vr's disruption a to much.

IF you have 3 TWF's and one 2hd guy and the 3twf are vorping you might as well vorp as well 7 vorps swinging = a 20 rolled by some one noramly well befroe that mod would have died to DPS, this is based and high level leet settign lower elvel and dif = mush less HP adn DPS set would be better.
They area mor situational based on what the gorup is useing as a whole imo.

Para heck I had problems selling para weaposn for BASE price on the AH this weekend, definetly rarly see any oen but a few archers or clerics useign them any more, Note a cleric thast not built as a battel cleric btu did nto totaly dump str and prevent a lot of damage swinging a parap weapon adidng minor DPS, and giving them selves even more time to swing the weapona and savign SP's.

my guild is Twilight Aliance, dont think that is in my Sig shoudl fix that :)

[Kaboth]

The B sword / Khopesh question....

Well, it would have to be something completely off the wall amazing. (and I can't think of anything that would make me do it now).

But if I "HAD" to.... hmmmmm.... I guess Greater Weapon Focus would be the one to bite the dust...

Honestly, Longswords are not that far behind the Bsword and Khopesh, and comparitively, they are EASY to get.

Well there is a new bastard sword that looks pretty sweet, but I would have to disagree that Khopeshes are not that much ahead of lonswords, unless you discount the times 3 crit multiplier. But as far as this concerns your build, the Khopesh and BS comparison, your build doesnt need one. Burst weapons do more on a khopesh vs a longsword on a crit, not to mention more crit damage.

[Litz]

So my Wiz is awaiting them to come out with the "Monkey Grip" feat. Then I can dual wield 2handers I'm debating Great Axe vs. Greatsword. I know I will take a hit on my to hit by dual wielding, and I will have to give up my Combat Expertise inorder to afford the extra feat slot without giving up my metamagics, but think of the massive damage my wiz could do.. Any advise?

:D

[binnsr]

So my Wiz is awaiting them to come out with the "Monkey Grip" feat. Then I can dual wield 2handers I'm debating Great Axe vs. Greatsword. I know I will take a hit on my to hit by dual wielding, and I will have to give up my Combat Expertise inorder to afford the extra feat slot without giving up my metamagics, but think of the massive damage my wiz could do.. Any advise?

:D
Not to further derail the thread, but 'monkey grip' would be sick in the hands of a well-built barbarian with all the TWF feats and a pair of big axes ..

[Riot]

Not to derail the thread further, but that's Not what Monkey grip does....

Monkey grip (via the books) allows the use of Large/Giant sized weapons to be used (with a lesser penalty) by a creature who's size category is smaller.

This is not equal to a Greatword in one hand.
This is a Large Sized Longsword being used in one hand.

This is the way the feat was intended....

Yes, you can argue all day that a Greatsword is a Large Longsword. But in PnP that's been shot down over and over..... Turbine will ahve to make up it's mind if they ever use this feat.

[Twerpp]

Not to derail the thread further, but that's Not what Monkey grip does....

Monkey grip (via the books) allows the use of Large/Giant sized weapons to be used (with a lesser penalty) by a creature who's size category is smaller.

This is not equal to a Greatword in one hand.
This is a Large Sized Longsword being used in one hand.

This is the way the feat was intended....

Yes, you can argue all day that a Greatsword is a Large Longsword. But in PnP that's been shot down over and over..... Turbine will ahve to make up it's mind if they ever use this feat.

Eh, they let you do it that way in NWN2 though. And I built it with that overpowered little wood elf sub race just because it looked cool.

[Twerpp]

BTW this is an awesome build especially for first time players, very survivable, good damage contribution, and few mechanics to master.

[Riot]

yeah I know... but nobody ever accused NWN of being 100% accurate either. =P

[Riot]

Takes a lickin, and keeps on tickin.

[Riot]

Level 15 & 16 Feats.

At this point I'm pretty convinced it'll be:
15 - skill focus UMD
16 - Greater Weapon Spec. Slash

[Borror0]

Level 15 & 16 Feats.

At this point I'm pretty convinced it'll be:
15 - skill focus UMD
16 - Greater Weapon Spec. Slash

hehe, I was about to ask you... XD

Will you make the FoP change too?

[Riot]

Sorry, I'm having Acronym Amnesia.. FoP is what again?

[binnsr]

Force of Personality (new mod6 feat that uses your Charisma modifier for your will save instead of your Wisdom mod)

[Riot]

No I won't take Force of Personality.

That's the main reason I took Wisdom over Charisma during creation.
Saves me a Feat in the long run.

[maddmatt70]

No I won't take Force of Personality.

That's the main reason I took Wisdom over Charisma during creation.
Saves me a Feat in the long run.

Oh yeah you had the foresight whenever you made your character to think that Turbine may create a feat in the future called Force of Personality which you would then as a pure fighter with 9 bonus feats at 16th Level not take despite already investing multiple feats in your saves. Are you kidding me? You would have built your character differently with only an 8 wis higher charisma and taken this feat so you could raise your intimidate score and free up an equipement slot on your character - we all know that.

[Riot]

Oh yeah you had the foresight whenever you made your character to think that Turbine may create a feat in the future called Force of Personality which you would then as a pure fighter with 9 bonus feats at 16th Level not take despite already investing multiple feats in your saves. Are you kidding me? You would have built your character differently with only an 8 wis higher charisma and taken this feat so you could raise your intimidate score and free up an equipement slot on your character - we all know that.

I think you are reading way too much into my response.
But to answer your basic question.

There are several feats which provide saves from a different attribute.
They all exist in PnP, DnD. Way before mod 6 DDO. And YES, I was/am aware of them.
Turbine did not "invent" these feats. They've existed in PnP for quite some time.

Yes, I purposefully designed my character NOT to use them. And instead use the standard Attributes for saves.

As for Equipment slots, There's a +6 Wis +7 Intimidate helm. There's No comparison as far as Cha is concerned.

Switching 8Cha & 12 Wis to 8Wis & 12 Cha. Is a 2 modifier change.
Skill Focus in any relative skill, instead of Force of personality, is a 3 modifier difference. More bang for the specific Buck imho.

I'm Not a Paladin, so Charisma does not grant me any direct benefit other than Intimidate modification.
I don't plan on being a Paladin.

Ergo I did not plan on using Force Of Personality. And I still don't.

[maddmatt70]

Your taking both skill focus umd and skill focus intimidate so a higher charisma and force of persuasion would save you a feat. Do you usually wear only a +7 intimidate item and furthermore do you plan to wear a +7 item when the cap is raised to 16 when +15 intimidate items are more readily available? Finally, you have less ability scores to worry about so you dont have to carry around a charisma and wisdom item.... Why am I even bothering arguing your build it is outdated/inefficient anyway?

[sigtrent]

Why am I even bothering arguing your build it is outdated/inefficient anyway?

It is possible to try and make a point without being rude you know. Just leave off that last sentence and all would be well. Resist the urge to make things personal and the forums are a better place.

Personaly I do thing it is much more efficient all around to build with two paladin levels and tank Wisdom for Charisma. Ultimately it saves feats spent on saving throws and adds to the diversity of the character's abbilities. Of course the most efficeint way to do X is not the only good way to do it. Riott's build is only outdated in the sense that it was designed before some of the newer mechanics. All around it's a solid fighter build with no real flaws.

It is kind of silly to insist someone alter their build when the character is essentialy built and played. The best thing is to go make your own build to demonstrate how you think it can be improved on. Kind of a Put up or Shut up challenge.

[maddmatt70]

It is possible to try and make a point without being rude you know. Just leave off that last sentence and all would be well. Resist the urge to make things personal and the forums are a better place.

Personaly I do thing it is much more efficient all around to build with two paladin levels and tank Wisdom for Charisma. Ultimately it saves feats spent on saving throws and adds to the diversity of the character's abbilities. Of course the most efficeint way to do X is not the only good way to do it. Riott's build is only outdated in the sense that it was designed before some of the newer mechanics. All around it's a solid fighter build with no real flaws.

It is kind of silly to insist someone alter their build when the character is essentialy built and played. The best thing is to go make your own build to demonstrate how you think it can be improved on. Kind of a Put up or Shut up challenge.

Fair enough I get the rude award. There is nothing wrong with a dwarven fighter intimidate tank build other then the intimidate part. I was referring to the intimidate part's purpose/function not the overall build itself when I made that comment..

I actually posted an intimidate tank build on the forums here which alas had flaws (stupid halfling -4 intimidate and no dragonmark usage with CE) so I did take up the challenge...

[binnsr]

The best thing is to go make your own build to demonstrate how you think it can be improved on. Kind of a Put up or Shut up challenge.
Like this (http://www.housetharashk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28706&postcount=2)? :)

[maddmatt70]

Nice imtidate tank build binnsr.. I like the evasion..

[binnsr]

Nice imtidate tank build binnsr.. I like the evasion..
Thanks!
He's the culmination of building an intimitank fairly similar to riott's as well as two evasion pallys. Been a blast to play - at lvl7.4 right now and just about to grow into his +5mts that I just found for him. :)

[Riot]

To answer your question, No I actually don't wear the Dragon helm that often. I was merely pointing out that there is not a similar Charisma/Intimidate item available.

I personally use the straight Intimidate helm when I have too. However I don't have to quite often.

Yes I took skill focus UMD.

Here's there basic issue with flip flopping my stats and FoP.

Right now, I don't wear a single dedicated Charisma item. Yes my Charisma is boosted, but it's a byproduct from another item. ie: Charisma cloak of Greater Resist.

Which makes my now boosted Charisma 11. Since I had an 8, and used a +2 tome.
My Current Wisdom is 14, with helm it's a 20. +5 Bonus.

FoP would not do anything for me. Currently. So right now it's a no brainer.

Had I swapped. My adjusted Charisma would be a 15. +2 bonus.
And my Wisdom would be a 10, with helm a 16 +3 Bonus.
FoP would give me a -1 to my Wisdom save.

On top of that, Either my UMD or Intimidate would also be one lower, while the other would be 2 higher.

Actually, My curent thought process on the matter includes swapping SF Intimidate with Bull headed, which will give yet another +1 to Will Saves. But that final descision is based on Mob Intimidate numbers in the upcomming modules and fighter 16 Enhancement options.

To say the least, I'm still very satisfied with my descision to NOT opt to use the higher Charisma.
One advantage of Straight Fighter is having a ton of feats. And then some.

[Borror0]

To answer your question, No I actually don't wear the Dragon helm that often. I was merely pointing out that there is not a similar Charisma/Intimidate item available.

I miss the Reaver on a 2 with a 48 intimidate, with the Dragon helm, I'd be too far behind.

[Riot]

I could very well go back to wearing the Dragon Helm come Mod 6.

For starters Intimidate will go up by 2 just from leveling.
If there is another Enhancement Mod, that remains to be seen. Possibly 1 more.

And items should hit +15 which will increase from the +11 I use curently.

So Potentially I am looking at a +7 increase to Intimidate.

If mob Intimidates don't increase by 4 or more. I may very well drop Skill Focus Intimidate. And Pick up something else useful.

If mob Intimidates increase by 6-7 I'll swap SF Intimidate for Bull Headed.

At least that's the plan thus far.

[sigtrent]

Like this (http://www.housetharashk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28706&postcount=2)? :)

Bingo! Although I have to ask... Mobility?

[binnsr]

Bingo! Although I have to ask... Mobility?
Spring Attack and WhirlWind Attack at lvl15 (ftr10)
Which still leaves 3 feats for 17-19.

[sigtrent]

Spring Attack and WhirlWind Attack at lvl15 (ftr10)
Which still leaves 3 feats for 17-19.

Ok... so why mobility and whirlwind?

Generaly when I've played with intimidate based characters, they are most useful when standing still as it makes it much easier to deal wtih the monsters they have collected. So that makes mobility pretty pointless IMO.

Whirlwind I can see, but for the three feats, two of which are somewhat wasted, you could grab Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave. Both Cleave and Greater Cleave have shorter cooldowns than whirlwind and you get two of them. They don't have 360 coverage but the arc is pretty darn big, usualy only missing the monsters directly behind you.

[Riot]

Regarding those particulars, I have to agree, that using the spring attack/whirlwind route is not my preference either.
Nor is Evasion.

All for various reasons. Those arguments have been raked over the fire more than enough times.
If you want to use them, great, have at it. Flavor be yours!

[sigtrent]

I think evasion is certainly worth having if you can muster a decent reflex save, and most people can if they try.

It has a few drawbacks but overall I think it's a good thing to build for. Far from required but certainly handy in some situations and quite nice in PVP.

[Borror0]

I think evasion is certainly worth having if you can muster a decent reflex save, and most people can if they try.

It has a few drawbacks but overall I think it's a good thing to build for. Far from required but certainly handy in some situations and quite nice in PVP.

Like you said, nice in certain situation... but not needed most of the time. As long as I can do fine with floored/near-flooded relfex saves and 30 pts resists, I'll take the feat the fighter level gives me.... plus the Extra AC. :)

[sigtrent]

Like you said, nice in certain situation... but not needed most of the time.

I often say the same thing about intimidate...

[Borror0]

I often say the same thing about intimidate...

hehe, I won't hide it, you're right. But how many things are needed in this game? ;)

[binnsr]

I've found my own personal playstyle doesn't suit itself to turtling up unless i have to. With that in mind, I would rather not have my already meager attack bonus further eroded by a -4 penalty when moving into combat. What I typically do is charge in swinging, then mash intimidate to gather them in. Having spring attack helps me establish agro on the leading edges of the group of mobs before I hit intimidate upon reaching the majority of the mobs.
I'll probably pick up PA, Cleave and Great Cleave for my lvl17-19 feats.

I'll now return you to your previously scheduled build discussion and stop derailing Riots thread :)

[sigtrent]

I'll now return you to your previously scheduled build discussion and stop derailing Riots thread :)

Thanks for explaining :)

[Riot]

I fI had to make the choice of going for PA, Cleave Great Cleave, or working the Mobility, Spring attack, Whirlwind line,,,,,,,,,, I'd go with PA, Cleave, Great Cleave.

I think you benefits there are greater than the other line regarding an Intimitank build.
And that's putting it in a short sentence.

I do have a build with the spring attack line, but it's a DPS build that's lightly armored.

[yynderjohn]

you update this build for lvl 16 yet?

[Riot]

Yes.. I decided to go with Power Attack, for those times when DPS is the key. Two handing a SOS and Power Attack is just nasty.

[Borror0]

Yes.. I decided to go with Power Attack, for those times when DPS is the key. Two handing a SOS and Power Attack is just nasty.

So, I guess Cleave and Great Cleave are next?

[Riot]

It's hard to guesstimate at this point.

Depends on how the game shakes out over the next 2 levels to be sure.

[Illuminati]

It's hard to guesstimate at this point.

Depends on how the game shakes out over the next 2 levels to be sure.

Riott didn't share the catalyst for his decision to grab PA =)

Grats on the SoS AJ!

[Borror0]

Riott didn't share the catalyst for his decision to grab PA =)

Grats on the SoS AJ!

While I didn't take for that, I'm very happy to have Power Attack for the first part of The Shroud. When breaking portals, I pull out a two-hander, turn on PA and start breaking the portals. With the amount of CC around the portal, no one has to worry about AC, so the more damage, the better.

It's also a very nice feat for those Beholder/Mindflayer moments. Situtional, but very nice.

[Riot]

Yeah.. Beholders / Abbots / and caster mobs in general...

That's the main reason.

[Riot]

Update.... With the new mod 6, and the increased Mob to hit abilities.

The Human Versatility Enhancement is now highly recommended.

This is of course superior to the Fighter Action Boosts, since you get more versatility for the ENH points.
But the kicker is the +5 AC boosting. Which can take this build into the 70+ AC range buffed.

So, I'm updating my enhancement recommendations to include Human Versatility once again.

[Blazer]

Hey Riot, just wondering if you've got any new benchmarks for us regarding intimidate? I seem to recall you stating that the toughest things before the cap went up were the Reaver on elite and the Gianthold Tor Keeper on elite. Is that still the case? I read how the difficulty and abilities of mobs on elite in the high end quests were supposed to ramp up with this new mod, so that made me wonder if the ability to intimidate them was also ramped up significantly.

Also, do you even bother trying to intimidate the Ghales (sp?) in Running with the Devils, especially on elite? They seem to have this maximized light spell that is undodgeable, has no save, never misses, and does upwards of 60pts of damage per shot. First time I went in there I was completely unprepared for getting blasted with four or five of those in short succession.

[Borror0]

Well, not Riot but...


Also, do you even bother trying to intimidate the Ghales (sp?) in Running with the Devils, especially on elite? They seem to have this maximized light spell that is undodgeable, has no save, never misses, and does upwards of 60pts of damage per shot.

I don't. Simply don't see the point. Of course, if someone else is about to get beated up... I'll do it. Otherwise, I let the DPS grab aggro (or the cleric so he can run the mobs into BBs) as theygot more HP than me... and it is all that matters against these.

[Riot]

Keeping Intimidate maxed, I can still hit Shroud bosses without fail. So right now with Intimidate maxed, with the level increase to 16, I can hit everything in the game reliably.... (pretty sure without fail now) Although I may still fail the reaver on a 1 or 2. I forget the exact number.

Intimidating Ghales..... Actually Yes I do. On occasion.

When there are multiple incoming, I will Intimidate and Move, not concerned with DPS for the initial engagement. Circle strafing with jumps to get them to miss with their rays. And it does work to some extent.

I have the HP to withstand a sustained attack, and since I'm the focus it's easy to heal me.

This initial move lets the party jump start the DPS/CC without being mauled. Especially lower HP builds.

--------------------------------------

With singles or doubles, I usually focus on DPS in that instance. Either way with Ghales I'm using a two hander with power attack.
Since AC isn't the factor when fighting them. I treat them pretty similar to how I treat beholders.

Turn em away from the party, Beat the snot outta them.

[Ryavin]

Riot,

How much of an increase do you get in damage reduction with
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery

Both are assumed while blocking and is it different for a heavy shield and a tower?

[Slayer918]

I believe its 3 points of blocking DR for each of those (6 for both)

[binnsr]

I believe its 3 points of blocking DR for each of those (6 for both)

that would be correct..

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Damage_reduction

[Borror0]

I forget the exact number.

If my memory serves me right, you need 50 Intimidate to floor the Stormreaver on Elite.

[Slayer918]

If my memory serves me right, you need 50 Intimidate to floor the Stormreaver on Elite.

I know 50 gets him and 48 does not, so its 49 or 50.

EDIT: Which means you would only need 48 or 49 in your skill to floor him since you'll get that +1 minimum from the roll

[Blazer]

If my memory serves me right, you need 50 Intimidate to floor the Stormreaver on Elite.


I know 50 gets him and 48 does not, so its 49 or 50.

Are you sure about this? I'm sure I've gotten him on a 43 combined on elite. I'll dig up a screenshot when I get a chance.

EDIT: Oh wait, my group always debuffs the snot out of him, so he's always got at least Bestow Curse and usually Symbol of Pain on him, each of which should drop his saves by 4 for an 8 total.

[Slayer918]

Are you sure about this? I'm sure I've gotten him on a 43 combined on elite. I'll dig up a screenshot when I get a chance.

EDIT: Oh wait, my group always debuffs the snot out of him, so he's always got at least Bestow Curse and usually Symbol of Pain on him, each of which should drop his saves by 4 for an 8 total.

Are you taking into account the -8 size bonus? You only need to show a combined number of 42 on your dice roll however since he gets that -8 to your intimidate the effective DC is 8 points higher (though its actually 41-42).

[Blazer]

Are you taking into account the -8 size bonus? You only need to show a combined number of 42 on your dice roll however since he gets that -8 to your intimidate the effective DC is 8 points higher (though its actually 41-42).

Yeah, I am taking the size modifier into account. Sometimes I accidentally have an Air Ele targeted and the + on the dice is larger for them than for him. As I said, I'll dig up a screenie just to satisfy my curiosity. If I don't have one, I'll get one when my timer is up in a couple days.

[Blazer]

Intimidating Ghales..... Actually Yes I do. On occasion.

When there are multiple incoming, I will Intimidate and Move, not concerned with DPS for the initial engagement. Circle strafing with jumps to get them to miss with their rays. And it does work to some extent.

I have the HP to withstand a sustained attack, and since I'm the focus it's easy to heal me.

This initial move lets the party jump start the DPS/CC without being mauled. Especially lower HP builds.

I'll have to try to improve my skill at the circle strafing then when I have their aggro via intim. I may have dodged a ray and not noticed, but it seems like they hit without error.

[Riot]

How much of an increase do you get in damage reduction with
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
you get 6 points total from the 2 feats. 3 pt's each.

27 DR with +5 Mith Tower
29 DR with Madstone Sheild


Intimidate UPDATE

Pit Feind = 50 or 51 To intimidate.

Got a real good chance to Tank him tonight.
This makes him the toughest Intimidate mob in the game.

Correction on my % of success, this means I can get him about 80% success rate.
Don't forget subtract your size modifier from you score as well, that's the kicker.
Makes him about a 58 total, 62 for halfers.

Reaver has gotta be low 40's. I don't miss him at all anymore.

[Riot]

I'll have to try to improve my skill at the circle strafing then when I have their aggro via intim. I may have dodged a ray and not noticed, but it seems like they hit without error.
The thing is you'll never dodge anything after you see it. Server side lag ensures that.
To dodge ray's / cones, you need just be in constant motion laterally from your target.
Circle strafing is the best method, and mixing in JUMPS helps alot too, ESPECIALLY if you have a high jump skill and get some good vertical height.

My Halfling hurler circle strafes Mind flayers all day, and his will save isn't the greatest thing in the world... it's just that they can't hit him at all with their cones.

[yynderjohn]

Can you post what gear you are wearing?

[Riot]

To be honest... the gear I wear depends on what I'm fighting/quest I'm in.

this is not bragging, but,,,,,
I have pretty much all the high end stuff out there, sans Abbot raid / Shroud raid.

Riotts been active since head start, and never been re-rolled.
Ergo he's pretty well equipped.

If you have a question about specific pieces and if I use them or what I use for certain scenarios I'll try to answer that more specifically.

[Snoggy]

Hi! I've been playing your build lately on a brand new fighter I rolled up. And it's been a lot of fun so far.

:)

[yynderjohn]

To be honest... the gear I wear depends on what I'm fighting/quest I'm in.

this is not bragging, but,,,,,
I have pretty much all the high end stuff out there, sans Abbot raid / Shroud raid.

Riotts been active since head start, and never been re-rolled.
Ergo he's pretty well equipped.

If you have a question about specific pieces and if I use them or what I use for certain scenarios I'll try to answer that more specifically.



Just wanted to know how you get 57 AC unbuffed.

[Illuminati]

Just wanted to know how you get 57 AC unbuffed.

10 Base
13 Amor (+5 Mith, Riott actually owned one of the first ugliest sets ever)
6 Dexterity (Fam III, TS Mastery III - Gem Shield)
9 Shield (+5 Madstone Shield)
5 Protection
3 Natural (Ring)
6 Dodge (ring, feat, bracers)
5 Combat Expertise
------
57

or something close to that

[Riot]

Yeah... that's one configuration....

It goes up and down depending mostly on resist gear I'm wearing, if any.
Raid buffed I'll be in the high 60's. And with AC boost I'll be in the low 70's.

[Blazer]

Just wanted to know how you get 57 AC unbuffed.

Back on pg 3 you can find this config for his gear. Granted this was posted back in Oct, but it's probably still fairly close.


+10 Base
+13 Armor, +5 Mith Full plate
+9 Shield, +5 Mith Tower of Bashing
+3 natural armor - Seal of Earth
+6 Dodge AC - Dodge Feat, Chattering Ring, Chaosguard
+5 Protection Necklace
+5 Combat Expertise Feat
+6 Dex Modifier (armor and Tower mastery required)
-------
57 AC (58 AC with Parrying weapon, But I don't usually use that)

+4 Paly Aura
-------------
61 AC

Simultaneously I can have 322 HP in this Unbuffed state as well. For those who are curious about the effect this has on HP.
However I usually run with 292 HP. (basically, my greater false life item does not replace an AC item)

Keep in mind, playing a defensive fighter is similar to playing an offensive fighter in that you can't have just one gear layout and be done with it. You need to be flexible and shuffle things around here and there when it's necessary. I know Riot has alluded to carrying around +5 Addy FP as well as White Dragon Armor, depending on the need. He'll also switch into the Amulet of the Stormreaver if he needs perma electric resist 30 going, and his AC only drops by 1 pt. I think he's made mention of at one point having the White dragon armor (30 cold), the Amulet (30 electric), and then a greater fire cloak on all at the same time. So now he's sporting undispellable cold/electric/fire resist and still tipping low-to-mid 50s AC. It's all about knowing the quests and what is needed vs what isn't.

I know I've been looking for a +5 MTS of Acid Resistance for my tank because then she'll always be immune to acid damage from stuff like Melf's, Burning Blood, Acid Fog/Cloud - none of these seem to ever do more than 10pts of damage. I found a +4 version, just need to track down the +5 one.

[yynderjohn]

Thanks, I was forgetting the Seal of Earth.

[Riot]

Seal of Earth has Acid Resistance 10.... =)

And I do have Black Dragon Armor as well...

[Blazer]

Seal of Earth has Acid Resistance 10.... =)

And I do have Black Dragon Armor as well...

Oh, I know about the 10 acid resist on the Seal, I just haven't been fortunate enough to land it when we were running DQ often. My guild has slacked off a lot recently when it comes to DQ. We've been spoiled by the lack of re-flagging needed for Titan, Reaver, etc. ;)

[Borror0]

Seal of Earth has Acid Resistance 10.... =)

I don't really see what to drop for the Seal, just find the Barkskin potions to be doing the job most of the time.

[Blazer]

I don't really see what to drop for the Seal, just find the Barkskin potions to be doing the job most of the time.

I'm sure Riot was posting a completely undispellable AC here. My pots get dispelled a lot in the vale.

[Borror0]

I'm sure Riot was posting a completely undispellable AC here. My pots get dispelled a lot in the vale.

Oh, I know that.

I just prefer to drink again than to give up a item slot... but that's just me.

[Riot]

Depedning on what I'm fighting I use bark pots as well and replace the seal of earth with something else....

However, the Stoneskin buff from that thing is at 12th level... And at 3/day that just rocks.... literally.
The ring is worth it for the buff alone.

[Blazer]

Yeah, if you're not fighting things that dispel, I could see you wearing something else in that ring slot (elemental resist, disease immunity, poison immunity, etc).

Riot, when you were tanking the Pit Fiend and found that new Intim number of 50-51, what was your AC and how was it holding up against him? Were you at your standing AC of 57? Were you buffed via ranger/pally/recitation/bard/haste? My tank is lacking the Chattering Ring and my groups tend to lack paladins (usually only have someone with 3 lvls of pally for +2 to ac/saves) and only rarely have a full ranger around, so I'm wondering if her 54-55ish AC is going to hold up well enough.

[Borror0]

However, the Stoneskin buff from that thing is at 12th level... And at 3/day that just rocks.... literally.
The ring is worth it for the buff alone.

Totally, I was trying to get one.. I'll reconsider now that you can have a CL 16 Stoneskin Green Steel items for less effort.

[Riot]

Riot, when you were tanking the Pit Fiend and found that new Intim number of 50-51, what was your AC and how was it holding up against him? Were you at your standing AC of 57? Were you buffed via ranger/pally/recitation/bard/haste? My tank is lacking the Chattering Ring and my groups tend to lack paladins (usually only have someone with 3 lvls of pally for +2 to ac/saves) and only rarely have a full ranger around, so I'm wondering if her 54-55ish AC is going to hold up well enough.

in Round 4 it was cake, Because you walk into that fully Buffed.... I was 63-64 ish, (no paladin)... But would use the +5 AC boost.

The difference was pretty noticeable, Among all the melees getting hit (via cleaving ect.) You could see the difference in HP levels easily.... Especialyl one particular Dwarf Fighter/Barb with over 500 HP... When his HP bar goes lower than mine, and he's almost at twice the HP, yeah... AC matters. =)

The big difference is in Round 5. When you are Unbuffed from the Start.

I hit a quick Buff, and Intimidated then Turtled using ISB for simple damage. The bramble casters did damage back to him... he hit for around 40-50 damage as I recall... With a 27 DR i wasn't taking too much at all, and the bramble casters do small damage back on top of that....

I kept that position until I was buffed up, then of course started swining away ala part 4 style, again using Intimidate as it recycled.

The other noticeable effect was the Advantage of Human Recovery 2. With Mass Cure's targting ont he Tanks, I easily capped off at each heal, while some less human fighters would not.....

I'm VERY happy with the Pit Feind fights, the Riott build gets a moment to really shine.

It's should also be noted that in part 2, I was tanking the Troll and Hobgoblin guys BOTH with minimal heals from a bard, This was in total Turtle mode, with sonic and fire resistance going. This was done due to various reasons I won't go into... (blame game).. hehehehehe......

[Snoggy]

Depedning on what I'm fighting I use bark pots as well and replace the seal of earth with something else....

However, the Stoneskin buff from that thing is at 12th level... And at 3/day that just rocks.... literally.
The ring is worth it for the buff alone.

Have you thought of getting an aspect of mineral greensteel item for 2 more stoneskin clicks, at caster level 16? My longsword currently does that, I really like it. And haven't had any luck getting a seal of earth yet.

Another quick question ... with your AC hitting a mark that does make a difference on the Pit Fiend, what weapon are you swinging at him? I've been using a 2hander in there because I didn't think I could get my AC to make a difference. It's good to hear that it can.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm VERY happy with the Pit Feind fights, the Riott build gets a moment to really shine.
In what way does it "shine"? Or rather, how does it contribute to the success of the party?

[Riot]

In what way does it "shine"? Or rather, how does it contribute to the success of the party?

Ask our Clerics.... It's all about the pocket books.... Less mana, Less mana potions, Less Heal scrolls....
Being able to Intimidate him and stop him in his tracks, good DPS.... Really, if you've been there and know this build the benefits should be fairly obvious....

At the moment I use a +4 Transmuting longsword of Righteousness..... I'm loath to build a new one until all the combos are pretty much discovered. It works fine for now.....

[Riot]

Have you thought of getting an aspect of mineral greensteel item for 2 more stoneskin clicks, at caster level 16? My longsword currently does that, I really like it. And haven't had any luck getting a seal of earth yet.
Thought about it...... probably won't do it.

There's no material difference between the 16 and 12th level stoneskins EXCEPT the 16th can absorb 4 more hits.... Which is better, but the DR through the first 12 is the same....

SO theoretically if you pop it as it runs out, there's no let up in the benefit.... As it stands now I rarely run out of my 3 uses on my ring as is.... So 2 more wouldn't really be that beneficial over another aspect that I may use mroe often..

[Angelus_dead]

Ask our Clerics.... It's all about the pocket books.... Less mana, Less mana potions, Less Heal scrolls....
Being able to Intimidate him and stop him in his tracks, good DPS....
In what way do they use less mana or fewer scrolls? Your blocking DR is about 30, right, so he's still hitting you for around 20, isn't he?

So he's intimidated (for 6 seconds)- ok, so what? How is that better than when he wasn't intimidated?


At the moment I use a +4 Transmuting longsword of Righteousness..... I'm loath to build a new one until all the combos are pretty much discovered. It works fine for now.....
It seems very unlikely that any raid-craftable items will be able to bypass DR/Silver, so you wouldn't need it for this purpose. But for general use, I'd imagine you'd want a Holy Shocking Burst Longsword of +4 AC. It's the latest rage (although more people get the khopesh version, it seems). I also think you'd be interested in goggles of +6 charisma skills.

[binnsr]

In what way do they use less mana or fewer scrolls? Your blocking DR is about 30, right, so he's still hitting you for around 20, isn't he?

So he's intimidated (for 6 seconds)- ok, so what? How is that better than when he wasn't intimidated?

because 20 damage/hit vs 50 damage/hit is 5 more hits before the cleric has to toss a Heal on you.

And if he's intimidated, then he's not whaling on the other tanks and the cleric doesn't need to be tossing mass cures around as often.

With my 42 base intimidate, I get him about 50% of the time (need to get myself a Head of Good Fortune still :( to up that) in part 4 (haven't done part 5 yet)

[Angelus_dead]

because 20 damage/hit vs 50 damage/hit is 5 more hits before the cleric has to toss a Heal on you.
20 is less than 50, but 0 is less than 20. If you're not going to do serious damage to the pit fiend, why not step back so that he's not hitting you (or anybody)?

Besides, clerics do not typically use Heal spells while fighting Arraetrikos. They cast Maximized Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, which costs the same mana to heal any number of tanks who may be fighting the boss. If one of the tanks was less hurt than the others, that's no real benefit, because you pump the same healing into all of them.

Heal spells are normally only cast in reaction to Delayed Blast Fireball, which isn't something AC or DR can protect you against.


And if he's intimidated, then he's not whaling on the other tanks and the cleric doesn't need to be tossing mass cures around as often.
The description above implied that the other tanks (who had more total hp) were getting damaged while he was there, and at a faster rate than him. Are you saying that while intimidated, Arraetrikos stops doing his Great Cleave move?

[Riot]

It seems very unlikely that any raid-craftable items will be able to bypass DR/Silver, so you wouldn't need it for this purpose. But for general use, I'd imagine you'd want a Holy Shocking Burst Longsword of +4 AC. It's the latest rage (although more people get the khopesh version, it seems). I also think you'd be interested in goggles of +6 charisma skills.
I was useing the Chaos blade for a while.... and it's still a toss up as to which is best. Bypassing his DR seems to work pretty darn good...

We're dropping this guy in guild faster than I've seen any Pug do it. Granted we're coordinated. but still. IN Pug raids I see 8 or so melee involved... In guild we do it faster with 3 melee...

And the healing needed isn't even close in comparison.


20 is less than 50, but 0 is less than 20. If you're not going to do serious damage to the pit fiend, why not step back so that he's not hitting you (or anybody)?
Yer implying I don't do good damage.... But failing to take into the amount of damage I do personally PLUS the damage I induce by proxy. PLUS the damage I reduce by proxy.

Keep in mind, he hits me alot less than he hits others... That's damage reduced... Every time I get agro, Mob damage is reduced.
Evern for 6 seconds out of 10.... In a 10 minute fight, that 6 minutes of reduced damage.


Damage inflicted is personally is more than adequate. +6 transmuting weapon with specialization and 32 STR is nothing to scoff at.
PLUS count the additional hits on the mob which benefit from a +2 flanking bonus, and then include sneak attack damage. All that is contributed to the benefits of an Intimidate Tank.

These are the benefits.


Besides, clerics do not typically use Heal spells while fighting Arraetrikos. They cast Maximized Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, which costs the same mana to heal any number of tanks who may be fighting the boss. If one of the tanks was less hurt than the others, that's no real benefit, because you pump the same healing into all of them.
Maximized? hehehe, that's not Typical when we raid... That's desperate...
We're completing this quest with 14th level clerics, and they aren't huffing and puffing through it. I've seen pugs use 4, level 16 clerics and running out of mana, in part because they don't use Intimitanks well.



The description above implied that the other tanks (who had more total hp) were getting damaged while he was there, and at a faster rate than him. Are you saying that while intimidated, Arraetrikos stops doing his Great Cleave move?
Great Cleave is not whirlwind..... People need to learn positioning. That's the problem you see with Pugs.
There's some very good old school EQ lessons, that are more than applicable to this particular raid.

In DDO you can win with brute force.
But that doesn't mean it's the most efficient.

[Angelus_dead]

I was useing the Chaos blade for a while.... and it's still a toss up as to which is best. Bypassing his DR seems to work pretty darn good...
Against Arraetrikos, Chaosblade is definitively inferior to a +4 transmuting of righteousness. The disparity is doubled or quadrupled on hard or elite.


Maximized? hehehe, that's not Typical when we raid... That's desperate...
There's nothing "desperate" about it. It's simply the more efficient way to cast the spell. The only reason ever to not maximize it would be if you don't have the feat, don't have time to toggle the feat, or the players are so minorly hurt that it would overheal them (and in that case, why bother healing at all?).

Normal Mass Cure Moderate is 50 hp for 35 sp. ratio = 1.4
Maximized Mass Cure Moderate is 100 hp for 60 sp. ratio = 1.6

Assuming your tanks have about 400 hp, you simply wait till they're 25% down and then throw an MMCMW.


PLUS count the additional hits on the mob which benefit from a +2 flanking bonus, and then include sneak attack damage. All that is contributed to the benefits of an Intimidate Tank.
You get those benefits 91% of the time regardless.


Great Cleave is not whirlwind..... People need to learn positioning.
The Great Cleave feat strikes in a 360 degree circle, so why does it matter if it's whirlwind or not?

[Riot]

In our guild take care of our clerics, as far as buying then resources for the raid. In return we've been monitoring just how much they are using to know how well our "defense" is overall.

It's a mark of efficiency if nothing else.

The interesting thing is that while we expected our defense to increase we did not expect our offense to increase either.
But it did... And not just marginally... It was pretty close to what I'd call linear...

Which, yes did shock me and a couple of others as well.

The cause, had more to do with our stragey and coordination than any real monetary or item benefit.

Again, in case someones readin this thread for the first time.... I'm NOT advocating that EVERYONE needs an Intimitank....
I'm saying that having just ONE in a raid, increases efficiency....

[Dimz]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.

Question: Why human, as a 16 fighter you should have more then enough feats to achieve anything, I would use humans more for... Sorc (still a stupid idea imo, WF and Drow FTW), Bard (some bards need that extra feat), Barbarian (kinda gimped still, extra feat sure but Dwarves/Warforged are the beasts here), Batman (extra feat does help out, and human versatility for skills)

Wouldnt Use:
Pure Fighter (too many feats, no need), Wizard (no self healing, do not need feat, more for Halfling and Warforged)


Hope this helps. Not trying to hate on your fighter, but its not so special as your trying to make it out to be, its common sense.

Valkary

[Riot]

or the players are so minorly hurt that it would overheal them (and in that case, why bother healing at all?).
hmmmmmmmm... By George I think he's got it.


Assuming your tanks have about 400 hp, you simply wait till they're 25% down and then throw an MMCMW.
Who needs 400HP to tank this guy?

I have Bards in guild that can keep me alive with 320ish.

I know they are GREAT Players and all, but I think the build and strat has a little something to do with it.

To be honest, you are basing your info off of your experience.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Kudos.

But so am I. neither of us have to be wrong.
I'm not trying to disprove your method/experience. So please do take this as such.

[Riot]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.

Question: Why human, as a 16 fighter you should have more then enough feats to achieve anything, I would use humans more for... Sorc (still a stupid idea imo, WF and Drow FTW), Bard (some bards need that extra feat), Barbarian (kinda gimped still, extra feat sure but Dwarves/Warforged are the beasts here), Batman (extra feat does help out, and human versatility for skills)

Wouldnt Use:
Pure Fighter (too many feats, no need), Wizard (no self healing, do not need feat, more for Halfling and Warforged)


Hope this helps. Not trying to hate on your fighter, but its not so special as your trying to make it out to be, its common sense.

Valkary


Can't/won't argue with ignorance... there's no point...

Sorry you feel this way. have a nice day.

[Nick_RC]

Just thought Id check in on this post to see how you are interpreting AC vs the pit fiend.

I have alot of experience in that raid. We just completed it on hard 3 days ago (no rangers used good old fashioned barb beatdown) and i was trying to see how low hp tanks (sub 500 at 16 - not rangers) can be useful in it. I still have yet to find a need for them. in fact they seem to be taking a valuable slot in the party. from memory you have around 300hp correct? In my experience you will get smoked by him in the blink of an eye with that many hp. You can argue the shield block technique but then you are doing no damage and just taking it.... your hit point bar will be a rollercoaster ride for the clerics when you stop blocking. His attacks dont appear to be directed at just a single target in those 6 seconds you hit intimidate. It seems more like an area affect of damage.

I have been a sorc, cleric and tank in there to completion. From what i can see you have no place fighting him in melee with sub 400-450hp. Our barbs try and hit 550-600 to smooth the clerics job.(Bare in mind we are treating this as a loot run now so minimising all costs - no majors etc etc.)

With all due respect riot you cant argue dps - compared to a barb or ranger ur transmuting longsword pales...with no PA ur doing about mid 20s a hit? considering the amount of hp the fiend has...

All the sneak bonus and flanking that you mention can be more than handled by another high hp high dps toon.... thers 4 people attacking for eg. 3 will get the bonus no matter what...wouldnt it be better if all 4 were putting out massive dps with massive hp to backit up?

Im not having a dig at you here - i truly would like you to shed some light on it for me so I can make use of some similar builds in guild.

Cheers

N



Yer implying I don't do good damage.... But failing to take into the amount of damage I do personally PLUS the damage I induce by proxy. PLUS the damage I reduce by proxy.

Keep in mind, he hits me alot less than he hits others... That's damage reduced... Every time I get agro, Mob damage is reduced.
Evern for 6 seconds out of 10.... In a 10 minute fight, that 6 minutes of reduced damage.


Damage inflicted is personally is more than adequate. +6 transmuting weapon with specialization and 32 STR is nothing to scoff at.
PLUS count the additional hits on the mob which benefit from a +2 flanking bonus, and then include sneak attack damage. All that is contributed to the benefits of an Intimidate Tank.

These are the benefits.

[Robeling]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.

Question: Why human, as a 16 fighter you should have more then enough feats to achieve anything, I would use humans more for... Sorc (still a stupid idea imo, WF and Drow FTW), Bard (some bards need that extra feat), Barbarian (kinda gimped still, extra feat sure but Dwarves/Warforged are the beasts here), Batman (extra feat does help out, and human versatility for skills)

Wouldnt Use:
Pure Fighter (too many feats, no need), Wizard (no self healing, do not need feat, more for Halfling and Warforged)


Hope this helps. Not trying to hate on your fighter, but its not so special as your trying to make it out to be, its common sense.

Valkary

Human Versatility seems like a pretty big component to this build. Difficult to take Human Versatility when you're not human. Having the additional feat and human adaptability line seems to work well with the build too.

I would disagree that being a pure class in any class automatically gimps a build. Pure fighter has many advantages.

[Riot]

Just thought Id check in on this post to see how you are interpreting AC vs the pit fiend.
That's pretty easy...
Miss
Miss
Miss
Miss
Hit
Miss
Miss
Hit....(repeat)

Vs.

Hit
Hit
Hit
Hit
Miss
Hit
Hit
Miss....(Repeat)

It's not hard to tell how many attacks a mob has, and when you are being attacked.
And watch animations for Cleave/Great Cleave.


I still have yet to find a need for them. in fact they seem to be taking a valuable slot in the party.
This may be completely true... From your expereince... It doesn't mean it's not true altogether though.

I can count on one hand how many good intimitanks I've played with.


from memory you have around 300hp correct? In my experience you will get smoked by him in the blink of an eye with that many hp. You can argue the shield block technique but then you are doing no damage and just taking it.... your hit point bar will be a rollercoaster ride for the clerics when you stop blocking. His attacks dont appear to be directed at just a single target in those 6 seconds you hit intimidate. It seems more like an area affect of damage.

322 unbuffed.
I don't get smoked at all, I'm probably the most soild tank in the group. And that's considering I probably have agro at minimum half the time.
My HP bar goes down, who's doesn't, but like I said, a bard has kept me alive before.
He does Cleave, Great Cleave, and AoE attack. Those are Area of Effect, but 2 of those are avoidable. That playing smart. And I think we can all agree that not everyone does that.

I only sheild block if I have too, keep in mind though when he does hit me my Lions Belt and Bramble casters do say hello as well.
And I'm far from helpless... 2D6 + 11 from bashing... It's > than 0.


I have been a sorc, cleric and tank in there to completion. From what i can see you have no place fighting him in melee with sub 400-450hp. Our barbs try and hit 550-600 to smooth the clerics job.(Bare in mind we are treating this as a loot run now so minimising all costs - no majors etc etc.)
Have you ever been a High AC Intimitank? I wouldn't try tanking him as a Sorc or Cleric either.


With all due respect riot you cant argue dps - compared to a barb or ranger ur transmuting longsword pales...with no PA ur doing about mid 20s a hit? considering the amount of hp the fiend has...
I never argued superior DPS. But 1d8 + 20 bypassing 17-20 x2 and By passing all DR is not 'weak'.

When he hits me, he takes damage as well. it's small, but what is 8 points of damage over 100 or so hits right?..... 800 is what it is!

And for the record when it's Gnoll Time, I use Power Attack 32 STR and a Sword Of Shadows with weapon focus and Spec.


All the sneak bonus and flanking that you mention can be more than handled by another high hp high dps toon.... thers 4 people attacking for eg. 3 will get the bonus no matter what...wouldnt it be better if all 4 were putting out massive dps with massive hp to backit up? In theory this arguement holds up... But in practice it's a horrible application.
I don't even know where to begin to explain the issues of bouncing agro vs. high hitting mobs.
And frankly I've beent hrough this arguement enough times at this point, that if you don't see it, I'm not going to explian it any more.

It's fine and dandy you can beat the raid with gobs of Barbarian DPS and HP power.... Welcome to DDO, where you don't have to be optimal to be successful.... Or even close for that matter....

You could fix a sink with enough duct tape, but that still doesn't change the fact a wrench makes the task a bit more effcient.

[Snoggy]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.


Well besides the build itself, this entire thread contains a lot of the OP's tests and information regarding both Armor Class and the DC's for using Intimidate. Very useful information, and nice to have in the Fighter Forum, in a build thread about being a fighter based on AC and Intimidate. One might say it's almost logical to have all that information in the same place, and have a guide on how to build such a fighter for people new to the game or the class.

Not trying to hate on your hatred, but, you have to remember that class specific forums tend to focus on very specific aspects of those specific classes.

[maddmatt70]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.

Question: Why human, as a 16 fighter you should have more then enough feats to achieve anything, I would use humans more for... Sorc (still a stupid idea imo, WF and Drow FTW), Bard (some bards need that extra feat), Barbarian (kinda gimped still, extra feat sure but Dwarves/Warforged are the beasts here), Batman (extra feat does help out, and human versatility for skills)

Wouldnt Use:
Pure Fighter (too many feats, no need), Wizard (no self healing, do not need feat, more for Halfling and Warforged)


Hope this helps. Not trying to hate on your fighter, but its not so special as your trying to make it out to be, its common sense.

Valkary

I don't understand this particular build myself valkary because at this point in the game it makes very little sense and I agree with you regarding humans, but the rest about pure fighters being gimped at end game I have issues with.... Norg can stand in there with any of those you mention. He isn't gimped..

Oh and by the way Riot keeps bumping his own thread hence it has not digressed to page 4 or what have you..

[Angelus_dead]

I don't understand this particular build myself valkary because at this point in the game it makes very little sense and I agree with you regarding humans
Whether or not you think playing a character like this is a good idea, it's still useful to have a thread documenting what a build like this can do.
That way people considering trying a defensive fighter can see what kinds of numbers they'd reach at high level, and they can make informed choices as to whether they want to play something like that, or prehaps take only 90% fighter levels and X of paladin or Y of rogue, or whatever.

[Riot]

Wait a minute.. You guys just bumped my thread!!!! Doh So did I!!! All guilty!!!

Look, I post new info and what I'm doing as it occurs. Perhaps you are newer to DDO. But this build has been psoted since launch, and until the forum wipe, it was the largest class thread of any class. You may not be interested, but apparently some folks are.
Seriously, if you don't care for the straight fighter build, don't click the thread to open it.

You don't see me in the sorcerer forums, and there's a reason for that.

[Aeneas]

With a 46 intimidate (50 skill boosted) i'm having an exceedingly hard time intimidating the pit fiend with any frequency (on hard). When i do get him, it seems his aggro does not change. Will test more tonight on normal hopefully. Apparent intimidate score is 63 on hard.

[binnsr]

With a 46 intimidate (50 skill boosted) i'm having an exceedingly hard time intimidating the pit fiend with any frequency (on hard). When i do get him, it seems his aggro does not change. Will test more tonight on normal hopefully. Apparent intimidate score is 63 on hard.

My intimidate is identical to yours (will add one once I respec out my enhancements for Fighters Intimidate IV - and another two once i start running the reaver again and get a HoGF), and on normal (haven't hit him on hard yet :(), I've found that I'm intimidating him successfully on a 9, but not an 8 (unboosted), making it a 55 on normal.

[Riot]

We're doing another Hard run at him tonight. I'll check back with results.

That Pit Fiend is a bugger.... His whirl attacks and agro seem weird. And he doesn't always seem to "face" the right direction.

However we know that Intimidate helps for sure.
We took note of a damage comparison from when I used Intimidate and when I didn't using Melee Rangers on his back side.
The damage was much less on them when I was Intimidating.
Our clerics also agreed to that assessment.

[Riot]

Last night on hard, both part 4 and 5.

A 55 intimidate check FAILED.... However a 58 Succeeded both times.

I never did roll a 56 or 57....

He's also got very very high to Hit Bonus. He can hit me a bit. But nowhere near as often as he hits sub 50 AC's. Those are automatic to him it appears.

Intimidate works best on part 5 where you can stop him in his tracks when he tries to move. However those checks are tough to make with regularity.

[Strykersz]

I fail to see why this build is even posted, anyone whos been playing this game for more then 2 months would know the common sense to building a fighter, you get alot of feats, you spend those feats. Pure fighter's end game are gimped, (unless halfling). Not enough efficiency.

Question: Why human, as a 16 fighter you should have more then enough feats to achieve anything, I would use humans more for... Sorc (still a stupid idea imo, WF and Drow FTW), Bard (some bards need that extra feat), Barbarian (kinda gimped still, extra feat sure but Dwarves/Warforged are the beasts here), Batman (extra feat does help out, and human versatility for skills)

Wouldnt Use:
Pure Fighter (too many feats, no need), Wizard (no self healing, do not need feat, more for Halfling and Warforged)


Hope this helps. Not trying to hate on your fighter, but its not so special as your trying to make it out to be, its common sense.

Valkary

Human or dwarf are probably the best races for a build of this type. The dwarf gives efficiency by getting more hp(through dwarven toughness enhancements). The human gives efficiency by getting the recovery enhancements.

[Borror0]

Last night on hard, both part 4 and 5.

A 55 intimidate check FAILED.... However a 58 Succeeded both times.

I never did roll a 56 or 57....

I was in on Normal tonight, 42+9 and 46+5 worked, but 46+4 failed! (Part 5)
So, I'd need a 54 Intimidate to never fail, currently at 50. Not worth it, hehe. At least, I'm flooring the Reaver. :)

For AC, really nice in part 4, lesser but ok in part 5... and I had 63ish, but no debuffs.

[Mhykke]

I was in on Normal tonight, 42+9 and 46+5 worked, but 46+4 failed! (Part 5)

So, I'd need a 54 Intimidate to never fail, currently at 50. Not worth it, hehe. At least, I'm flooring the Reaver. :)

Hmm, 51 on normal, let's say 57 on hard....around 63 on elite.......hmmm, that elite intimidate might be a little tough.....

[Blazer]

Hmm, 51 on normal, let's say 57 on hard....around 63 on elite.......hmmm, that elite intimidate might be a little tough.....

Yeah, may need to craft something that gives you that + to CHA based skills if it will be 60+ on elite to intimidate.

[DaveyCrockett]

I have alot of experience in that raid. We just completed it on hard 3 days ago (no rangers used good old fashioned barb beatdown)

(Bare in mind we are treating this as a loot run now so minimising all costs - no majors etc etc.)

If you were indeed moving to minimize all costs, wouldn't you want to use a different tactic than the 'barb beatdown', and include a few rangers into your group? :D

[Nick_RC]

Our barbs are pretty brutal....its just faster we get him in 3 landings or something so clerics dont really go through anything in 4

That and we dont have any rangers ;p

[maddmatt70]

Our barbs are pretty brutal....its just faster we get him in 3 landings or something so clerics dont really go through anything in 4

That and we dont have any rangers ;p

We just did part 4 in one round last night. We had 1 ranger, 1 rogue, 2 clerics, a warchanter bard, and the rest were barbarians or fighters... None of them were intimidate tanks by the way..

[Snoggy]

Yeah, may need to craft something that gives you that + to CHA based skills if it will be 60+ on elite to intimidate.


Or do it the cheap/economic way, and wait for the level cap to increase.

;)

[Mhykke]

Or do it the cheap/economic way, and wait for the level cap to increase.

;)

We'd have to have 10 more lvl increases to get a decent chance of an intimidate roll of 63, if most modifiers are in the mid 40's right now.

[Snoggy]

We'd have to have 10 more lvl increases to get a decent chance of an intimidate roll of 63, if most modifiers are in the mid 40's right now.


Just saying the content gets easier with 2 to 4 more levels, the gear and stat boosts available on that gear increases with 2 to 4 more levels, and the quest on elite begins to actually match the level of people in the quest. Hence why it's the cheaper/economic route.

:)

And by the time the level cap starts to catch up with the shroud raid on elite ... there'll be quite a bit more crafting options both in that raid and in general (if general crafting is to be released in mod 7 or 8 as rumored), so the chance to achieve the desired number may possibly be much more attainable.

Of course, the other shoe drops, and the cutting edge content will have moved past The Shroud, onto other, most likely much harder to intimidate monsters/bosses/raid encounters.

All that being said ... I do think it's rather appropriate that it's difficult to "intimidate" a Pit Fiend. Just looking at it from a storytelling point of view and all.

;)

[Blazer]

All that being said ... I do think it's rather appropriate that it's difficult to "intimidate" a Pit Fiend. Just looking at it from a storytelling point of view and all.

;)

I agree here. Back when the cap was 10 or 12 I was having a discussion with someone in game about the difficulty they were having intimidating renders/reavers on elite in Co6 and Threnal. I pretty much said the same thing, from a story/RP perspective, why would an evil outsider be intimidated by "you". :)

[Borror0]

Why would an evil outsider be intimidated by "you". :)

I'm that badass. ;)

Seriously, totally agreed there. Still a little too high in my mind, but I sort of see the logic.

[Illuminati]

I'm that badass. ;)

Seriously, totally agreeed there. Still a little too high in my mind, but I sort of see the logic.

Intimidation is also 'taunting'. 'Hey big stinky!" or "Your moma is an orc with a wooden leg!" seem to work pretty good.

[Borror0]

Intimidation is also 'taunting'. 'Hey big stinky!" or "Your moma is an orc with a wooden leg!" seem to work pretty good.

Yes and no, it's what it is in DDO, not D&D...

[Illuminati]

Yes and no, it's what it is in DDO, not D&D...

I wouldn't go into what's DND here because I would run out of space from character limitations.

[Hadrian]

Besides, give me a good reason why an evil outsider wouldn't be intimidated by someone who has already killed thousands of them by now in melee combat. That sounds fairly intimidating. Evil_Outsider_9183 had better be scared!

[Riot]

I'm adding this to this thread because it's jsut something I want to keep in a place where I can find it.

It came from a discussion about Barbarians & fighters, and if AC and Intimidate matters anymore....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We've been tracking Heal scroll usage, spell point pools, and Mana pot usage on the Shroud part 4 and 5 since the begining of our raiding it.

Here's just a small snippet with Riott in a Normal & Hard Raid. both successful.
Both times we used 3 Melees, and Barbarian, Riott(Fighter), & a Paladin.

Using 1 Cleric assigned to 1 Melee Each.PARTS 4 & 5.
Keep in Mind I am Intimidating all through the fights as well.

Normal Raid
-------------
The following quotes were posted by a guildmate....

3 clerics,
Cleric A used 58 Heal scrolls, no pots.
Cleric B used 2 Heal scrolls, no pots (not a typo). Riott
Cleric C used 23 Heal scrolls, no pots.

Cleric B was using the hell out of the mana pools, and yes, Riott, was also healing you (now we'll never hear the end of THAT one).

Cleric A had almost half a bar of mana left after part 5, and probably 1/3 of a bar after part 4.

Just FYI,
Cleric A was healing a 600 HP Barb.
Cleric C was Healing a Paladin.


Hard Raid
-------------

Cleric A(healing Riott) - 178 Heal Scrolls, 1 Major Pot, 1 Greater Pot
Cleric B (healing a Paladin) - 35 Heal Scrolls, 12 Major Pots
Cleric C (healing the SAME 600 HP Barb) - 139 Heal Scrolls, 2 "normal" Pots - oh, and a Raise Dead scroll


I found this interesting. Here's why.

After the Normal runs, one would assume I wasn't taking any damage because either:
A) I didn't do jack for DPS, or
B) Intimidate doesn't work.

After the HARD Run it's quite apparent that either or both of those thougths are false.
My increase in healing came from one source or the other.

A) Either my DPS was greater than the Barbarian - unlikely or
B) Intimidate is effective - most likely. And to me proven.


Now 3 things are immediately obvious
The PF's AC obvisouly increases making the fights longer. Which costs in healing resources.
The PF's DPS obviously increases, costing us more in healing resources.
And the Intimidate Target Number increases making less Agro Control possible.

From the numbers, and From the fight, it's obvisous that all 3 players were Viable DPS sources. The agro was spread pretty good.
It was also obvious that while HP does help the BARB, it's not a Defacto savior or defense.
It was also obvious that the Intimidators AC/Saves played a key role.
And from being there, it's obvious that the Paladin was more than capable of holding his own PLUS providing some key bonuses to both of us.

All in all, it appears to me AC and Intimidate are still viable and valuable. Both to success and resources.

[Borror0]

From the numbers, and From the fight, it's obvisous that all 3 players were Viable DPS sources. The agro was spread pretty good.

Here is were I disagree on the analysis. To me, the aggro wasn't spread good at all.

Explain me how a paladin, who have lower AC than Riott (and similar saves) get damaged less? It's not because AC is irrevelant, the barbarian got damaged much more than the paladin and it's not because that Riott's damage was close to the barbarian's, I think that everyone will agree on that.

So, we must conclude that the barbarian got damage most than everyone else because he was pulling the aggro when intimidate was on the cooldown and that Riott got most damaged because of intimidate. It is very unlikely that the paladin pulled the aggro from the barbarian at any time, so his damage was caused by the AoE attacks of the PF. Riott needing less healing than the paladin on normal proves his AC and intimidation being useful, as he took less damage than the paladin who had probably only AoE attacks on him.

So, we can pretty safely assume an intimitank does reduce the amount of healing in The Shroud.

[Gunga]

Fair enough I get the rude award. There is nothing wrong with a dwarven fighter intimidate tank build other then the intimidate part. I was referring to the intimidate part's purpose/function not the overall build itself when I made that comment..

I actually posted an intimidate tank build on the forums here which alas had flaws (stupid halfling -4 intimidate and no dragonmark usage with CE) so I did take up the challenge...

I think the intimitank is becoming more relevant with all the rogue dps and twf tempest ranger builds running around.

[Illuminati]

I think the intimitank is becoming more relevant with all the rogue dps and twf tempest ranger builds running around.


True enough. That, and how hard it is for a Max Barb to DPS 4k worth HP before it is wounded/punctured.

Just and FYI, when they change Paladins Divine Righteousness to 60 second duration (+100% aggro) (most will have at least 9 per rest) it can basically hold aggro against anyone except force taunts. Couple that with Intim, Cleave, Ggleave on a multiclass and you got one heck of a tank.

[Riot]

B man, do note, that the Barbarian did Die.
And due to the paladin using Twohanded weapon, Plus his abilities, I pretty much suspect his DPS was higher than mine. At least in bursts if nothing else.
So while the Barb recouped, the Paladin shared that slice of Agro from DPS alone in between the Intimidates.

The Paladin's AC is superior to the Barbs. As are his saves.
I only took more Damage from the "Hard" mob due to Intimidating. Which is the conclusion we draw.

Again we have more than just two examples. But I didn't have all day to post.

When I said agro was spread pretty good, what I meant to say was that VIA Direct Damage, agro was spread pretty good.

Let me clarify that.... Sorry for the misspeaking.

We all had our bursts and through DPS alone, AND various weapon combinations each one of us could find their way to the top of the DPS Agro list. (The optimum weapon is not always what everyone should use, think about it). If you wnat to control agro, there's some very old school EQ lessons, that can be implemented in the way of weapon selection.

But Intimidate obvisouly tilts the scales in a rather grand fashion.

And just for the Barbs rep, he's a great player with great gear. Not just a random PUGer. He's what I'd call a choice DPS barb build.
Turning a high 40 STR, with high crit range and steller gear.

[binnsr]

If you wnat to control agro, there's some very old school EQ lessons, that can be implemented in the way of weapon selection.

Care to enlighten those of us who never played EQ .. let alone Old School EQ?

[Snoggy]

Care to enlighten those of us who never played EQ .. let alone Old School EQ?

EQ had weapons that would proc a hate/aggro increasing effect. So instead of extra damage when it went off, it would have extra hatred when it went off. So I assume Riott is referring to a very specific DDO weapon here?

BTW, EQ's version of Snoggy ... was the first warrior in his guild to complete the Warrior Epic. Lightsabers baby! Lightsabers! But alas I moved on to Scepter of Destruction later, since wow that thing was beastly.

[binnsr]

The only weapon that I know of with 'extra hate' on it is the Maul of Malice from Inferno - but that's a 2-hander and kinda negates the sick AC that Riot runs around with..

[Riot]

Sure...
The easiest way is with this example.

Lets say you want to beat down the Pit Fiend. He's got a good DR and some vulnerabilites. ie: holy, good, ect...
let say you have 5 Identical Melee, but You want to focus agro on just of them.

instead of having everyone using Holy/Good weapons.
Instruct 1 of them to use Holy/good and the rest to use JUST Good.

This is obviously the kiddie version.

But mix in Transumiting, Righteousness, Greater BANE, and Elemental Alignment weapons into the mix, as well as One handed VS. two handed, and Power Attacking On/Off. And you can really Fine tune your agro management.

ESPECIALLY when Mobs are Mobile.

Now Exand this example to Include dedicated healers PER Melee.

You have 8 Melee and 2 healers. Each healer is mroe than capable of healing 1 target with confidence. But via AOE healing it would be iffy and costly.

Fine tune the weapons and attacks so that 2 MELEE have a DPS advatage. Thereby standing above the rest. And focusing your healing resources.

Obviously Intimitanks are an EXCELLENT way to do this. With an Intimitank in group you merely need to select the HIGHEST DPS person OTHER than the intimitank. Since agro will bounce between the two almost certainly. The rest of the Melee are almost virtually self sufficient.

How much time do you lose when a mob moves out of range?
Alot, because you miss / have to chase it.
By doing this you reduce Agro bounce and thereby keeps mobs in the "kill zone" longer.

Basically this is where discipline and teamwork comes in. The Longer the fights, the more opportunity for efficiency.
Right now, Shroud 5 is best example of this in game. But that's not to say it's not usuable anywhere else.

And with Intimitanks, you can duplicate this efficiency with groups of mobs. Which is where their power comes in to play.

[Riot]

EQ version of Riott was a Monk....

"Put down that bo staff of Fury You draw too much agro!!!"

hehehehe

[Scapey]

EQ monks from Classic through Velious were godly. Even more so since we had our own playground, and most raids felt like they *had* to have a monk in PoH :D

Post Velious... I couldn't hack it anymore, got tired of the grind.

[Hadrian]

In this analysis of healing required, did you factor in reflex saves and their effect on the delayed blast fireball damage?

Were you all popping fire protection potions to refresh the protection when hit, or did you use some other strategy to reduce this damage? Was anything you might have done applied evenly to all three of you? (For example, maybe two of you had potions to use the whole way, while one of you did not bring any or ran out.)

Were you all getting hit with the fireballs, or were you spread out so that only one or two of you were hit with a given fireball?

Lastly, how long did you spend shield blocking? I am going to assume that the other two were using two-handers and so did not block at all. Did you shield block when intimidating, or just keep swinging?

[Borror0]

I think an intimitank's reflex should be included into it's effectiveness, period.

[Riot]

In this analysis of healing required, did you factor in reflex saves and their effect on the delayed blast fireball damage?

Were you all popping fire protection potions to refresh the protection when hit, or did you use some other strategy to reduce this damage? Was anything you might have done applied evenly to all three of you? (For example, maybe two of you had potions to use the whole way, while one of you did not bring any or ran out.)

Were you all getting hit with the fireballs, or were you spread out so that only one or two of you were hit with a given fireball?

Lastly, how long did you spend shield blocking? I am going to assume that the other two were using two-handers and so did not block at all. Did you shield block when intimidating, or just keep swinging?

I'll answer as best I can.... And we all know that nothing is perfect, but we did keep things as balanced as best we can.

I'm certain we all had Greater Fire resist items. But no, we don't bother to pop fire protection one after the other. I'm sure each of us probably refreshed our own via pots between waves on part 4, but that's about it. And maybe occasionally on part 5.

The Paladin and I were sword and board. The Barb 2 handed.

I Only Sheild Blocked if I was getting Very low on HP, (under 20%). And I can tell you that YES, it saved me more than once. Other than that I was swinging away. Plus with ISB I was still attacking.

I hit Intimidate every time I could.

Our formation around the Pit Fiend was a triangle formation. Fireballs hit us all at that range.

On our guild raids, each member is required to bring a certain number of items and potions. I personally did not run out of anything, and I do not beleive they did either. On these two particular runs, things went pretty smooth.

Buffs were all Evenly applied.

If there's any disparity, it's usually the clerics. I always get the Lowest SP pool cleric, or the least healing specialized cleric.
That's because I take the least damage. It's more efficient that way.

Just a note, I have been running a cleric on the Shroud lately, and am getting a really good idea of what Clerics are going through as well. So I am seeing the other side of the coin.

And one last note... We've never bugged him out either... The quest was run as intended the whole way.

[Riot]

Low 60's AC vs. the normal Pit Fiend is pretty much ridiculous. The only damage you are really taking is the fireball damage.
Boosting AC vs him to about 66-68 I beleive floors his to hit ability. ie: he needs a nat 20.

On hard it seems as though he's about an extra +10 to hit. So the Low 60's AC is keeping him well under a 50% hit ability.

Just jotting these notes down here....

[maddmatt70]

Low 60's AC vs. the normal Pit Fiend is pretty much ridiculous. The only damage you are really taking is the fireball damage.
Boosting AC vs him to about 66-68 I beleive floors his to hit ability. ie: he needs a nat 20.

On hard it seems as though he's about an extra +10 to hit. So the Low 60's AC is keeping him well under a 50% hit ability.

Just jotting these notes down here....

Yes, its the every other week occurrence of Riot's bumping of his own thread. Cheers mate..

[Riot]

Do we have to cover the fact that you just bumped it too?
or can we call that old teritory covered?

Cheers back.

[Illuminati]

I can't wait to go in there with 74 AC on my ranger / monk / pali with full DPS =)

10 Base
14 Dex
6 Armor
6 Dodge
6 Wisdom
5 Natural
2 Aura
2 Tempest
3 Favored
5 Protection
4 Insight
5 Combat Expertise
1 Haste
4 Shield Spell (have around 150 titan cookies saved up!)
1 Halfling
------
74 AC duel wielding ftw!

[Riot]

That's just sick...
We seriosuly need Improved CE back.

[Illuminati]

ahhh, those were the days =)

Remember that and Fighters Combat Boost Armor +7 lol

[Riot]

And Fighter Dodge....

And what was it, +10 to Hit boost?!!?!

heheeh

[Vua]

When you have the improved shield bash feat, do you keep your blocking DR or just the extra AC?

[Riot]

You Keep Both.

[QuantumFX]

Yes, its the every other week occurrence of Riot's bumping of his own thread. Cheers mate..

Well, you could bump the thread (and add to the conversation) by following up on the adventures of the 70ac rogue (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1622801&postcount=5). :)

[Vua]

You Keep Both.

Thank you. Just wanted to make sure before grabbing it. I'm mostly barb so I need to make the feats count.

[Sayntfuu]

Any reason not to take combat expertise instead of skill focus intim at 12? Is there a leap forward in intim difs at that level that make the extra +1 more important than the +5 AC? Since i dont have access to a chattering ring or better than +3 protection I could really use the ac now.

I also just wanted to say that this has been a very fun build. I use it in a trio with a wizard/thief and a cleric and we have a blast.

[Riot]

Go ahead and take CE in your case.... The AC is definately worth it by level 12.

Most of my feats have been rearranged in order to accomodate the ones I want.


Skill Focus is +3 to intimidate. The reason for this feat is twofold. First, high end boss mobs still take a good number to hit so you want all the bonuses you can get.

Secondly, having this feat can allow you to use different gear combinations that you otherwise might not, in certain situations.

For example, I have a +6 Wis helm of Intimidate 7. (Dragon helm) With SF this still gives a 10 intimidate bonus total, and the benefits of a +6 Wis. +10 is solid enough for just about any "normal" level run. I wear this often.


Or I can use the +15 Intimidate helm for "elite" mobs and have a +18 bonus. Which is for big boss mobs and "elite" runs.
This of course is overkill for Normal Runs, and is a waste of resources.

[Borror0]

Most of my feats have been rearranged in order to accomodate the ones I want.


Your OP says:

Riot's Current Modified Feat configuration in testing
**NOTE** This configuration is Not a Starting Config, it's modified with Dragon Shards.

... that's been there for months. Is it still in testing?:D Might want to change it everywhere and put the order you'd pick if you'd be creating the character from scratch.

[Sayntfuu]

Skill Focus is +3 to intimidate. The reason for this feat is twofold. First, high end boss mobs still take a good number to hit so you want all the bonuses you can get.

Ah for some reason I missed that it was +3. That makes much more sense actually.

I took CE and GWF Slashing and the change in AC has been very noticeable. I can always respec it out if I want I suppose.

Thanks again for the build.

[Epitome]

New change to Intimidate should be kinda cool.

NEW Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate now have a 6 second cool down instead of 10 seconds.

Should be able to retain mobs 100% of the time now as long as your checks are high enough.

[Reisz]

Check out the Dev discussion for mod 7. Intimidate will have a 6 sec cool down and we can eek out another 2AC through the stone of change!

[Epitome]

Hell yeah, some good updates for intimi-tanks to be sure.

Will be kinda nice to have the ability to shield block more on elite dungeons with this cooldown change to intimidate.

[Riot]

Rogues of the world Rejoice!

Intimidate cool down plus more hate = Backstab heaven.

[Tanka]

Rogues of the world Rejoice!

Intimidate cool down plus more hate = Backstab heaven.
Clerics of the world rejoice. They can concentrate on the singular Intimitank in the group now, and occasionally throw a Heal at another party member.

[Riot]

Update:

The changes to intimidate are very nice. It recycles faster, and generates more "hate". Basically you can hold mobs with Intimidate alone if need be. It's definately a noticable difference. You can even spin mobs around alot easier too.

Devil Raid - He's easily Tankable. Not hard to Intimidate at all. And along with some elec resist he's pretty much a cupcake.

Hound Raid - XyZZY is another cupcake. Easy to Intimidate, you can hold him in one place all day. And here's the tip of the day.
Sheild Blocking will prevent him from knocking you over. You can't hurt him, so Turtle up AC wise, get Acid resist on, and watch the lil guys do their job all the while keeping XyZZY focused on you.

Named mobs inthe underground are likewise not big threats at all, I've easily held agro on 4 Orthons plus the named one without much damage taken at all.

Overall I like the new zone and the new raids, the only thing I personally would change, is the Shrines appearing around every corner. They could probably eliminate about half of them, and still have more than neccessary. Curently it's more of a hoard run than anything really organized or tactical, mainly because "there's a shrine right up there".

[Borror0]

Devil Raid - He's easily Tankable. Not hard to Intimidate at all. And along with some elec resist he's pretty much a cupcake.

What was your AC?


Hound Raid - XyZZY is another cupcake. Easy to Intimidate, you can hold him in one place all day. And here's the tip of the day.
Sheild Blocking will prevent him from knocking you over. You can't hurt him, so Turtle up AC wise, get Acid resist on, and watch the lil guys do their job all the while keeping XyZZY focused on you.

Seriously? I'll have to try that on Elite Wednesday.

[Riot]

Let me see, For the devil I was 60 Base, Hasted, 61. (because I was wearing 2 resist items).
And for the life of me can't recall any other buffs, except stoneskin. (Since I do that myself).

I do know that I did drop CE at one point to DPS a little better, and it didn't have much of an effect.

As for XyZZy, what we've done so far, is send me and a cleric right into the middle.
I've tanked XyZZY, the little hounds and a Reaver or 2 at the same time. And it's not a problem.

Sheild blocking keeps you on yer feet. Turning a 30ish DR helps too. I even drop my HP down for this fight now to get the extra DR from the Symbiot.

As logn as we have the DPS sweepign the outside, this raid goes smooth. If not, then I'm usually the last one standing or close to it.

[Borror0]

Let me see, For the devil I was 60 Base, Hasted, 61. (because I was wearing 2 resist items).
And for the life of me can't recall any other buffs, except stoneskin. (Since I do that myself).

I had 62, and I was getting trample. At 58, though, the Orthons were sissies.


As logn as we have the DPS sweepign the outside, this raid goes smooth.

I had two failures on hard this morning, for a lack of DPS. (PuG groups.)

[Riot]

I bet I was probably around 70 to be honest. Paladin aura, and a +5 barkskin pretty much puts me there.
that's AC 68-69 right there.

Recitation bumps that to 70.

So I was probably in that range. Folks were having more trouble with the adds than with him.
Although his lightning can be annoying to squishies it wasn't that big a deal to me.

[Borror0]

I bet I was probably around 70 to be honest.

That's more likely, I'm still short on my GS item... :( (That's -4 AC, sooooooo unbalanced raid loot.)


Although his lightning can be annoying to squishies it wasn't that big a deal to me.

They just have the war a GLR item or csst Resit on them... Ring of the Djinn has gotten better though.:p

[Illuminati]

That boss is great for intimidators since you can do 0 dps to him for a bit.

[Borror0]

That boss is great for intimidators since you can do 0 dps to him for a bit.

You mean the Hound, right?

[Tanka]

That's more likely, I'm still short on my GS item... :( (That's -4 AC, sooooooo unbalanced raid loot.)
An Intimitank without his Shroud weapon? Shame, Borr, shame!

[Borror0]

An Intimitank without his Shroud weapon? Shame, Borr, shame!

Blame school and illness.

[Tanka]

Blame school and illness.
Sorry to hear about that. :(

(The school, that is. :p)

[Borror0]

(The school, that is. :p)

Guess who has a summer of vacation now?:p

[Riot]

You mean the Hound, right?

yes.. the Hound.

[Tanka]

Guess who has a summer of vacation now?:p
Blah blah blah. Look at me, I have lots of time off! Ooooh ooooh oooh!

:p

[Blazer]

Blah blah blah. Look at me, I have lots of time off! Ooooh ooooh oooh!

:p

Heh, have you noticed that the green light showing "online" status never goes off for Borror0 anymore. ;)

[Borror0]

Heh, have you noticed that the green light showing "online" status never goes off for Borror0 anymore. ;)

:rolleyes:

[Illuminati]

Grats Riott et all tanks, these two new encounters definately benefit from them.

Have to dust off mine though..... =)

[Nikorr123]

Just an FYI for those of you interested in this build or one like it, works great with monks for lvling - I have wanted to roll this build for awhile but dreaded XPing again. I pop my intimitank and 5 monks into a quest and fly. (granted i twinked the heck out of him had lot of gear saved for when i got around to lvling him IE Mith fp and TS for every level as I went up etc)

[maddmatt70]

Grats Riott et all tanks, these two new encounters definately benefit from them.

Have to dust off mine though..... =)

Not altogether sure this is an accurate statement. Intimidate is an effective strategy, but so is a more heavy dps laden strategy. I have been a part of both and can say that dps still is very very effective. Instead of having an intimidate tank just add a high dps high hit point barbarian even with the curse issue on VOD you can easily make the case that the barbarian as focus is more effective..

[Riot]

Last night's Devil raid... I was the last one standing with the 4 named orthons, MR. Ugly, and 2 Devils....
I was backed up nto a corner, back against the wall.

I Sheild Blocked, Hit AC BOOST.
I then quickly hit the Rez clickie from my Triple Positive sword and Rezed the Cleric.
And then Intimidated.

I repeated the Sheild Boost action and Drank a couple Cure Serious potions, while Sheild Blocking.
The whole raid was brought back to it's feet. All the while holding all the mobs in one place via Intimidate.

Gotta love those moments.

[Aeneas]

Intimidating the hound on hard or elite = no fun at all for anyone.

He's a large/huge creature and we get slapped with the size penalty. I'm thinking a high 40's intimidate is more or less necessary to wrangle him. I hit somewhere in the low 50's on hard and still couldn't nab him so i gave up and joined the party by the portals killing holders instead.

I know your intimidate is a couple points higher than mine, let me know if you can get an exact number when you hit her up on hard.

[Borror0]

I hit somewhere in the low 50's on hard and still couldn't nab him so i gave up and joined the party by the portals killing holders instead.

So, doesn't land often on Hard... looks like I might not try tonight on Elite.

[Riot]

I just landed my tier 3 necklace which has +2 to all CHA skills on it... Might need to go a couple rounds with the doggie to check it out....

[Tanka]

Tier 3 should be +3 to all Cha skills. ;)

[Riot]

Actually I took the Cha bonus at the second level... +2... Took somthing else at the third level.

[Tanka]

Actually I took the Cha bonus at the second level... +2... Took somthing else at the third level.
Ah. Just a miscommunication, then.

[Aeneas]

Not altogether sure this is an accurate statement. Intimidate is an effective strategy, but so is a more heavy dps laden strategy. I have been a part of both and can say that dps still is very very effective. Instead of having an intimidate tank just add a high dps high hit point barbarian even with the curse issue on VOD you can easily make the case that the barbarian as focus is more effective..

Yipes, sorry i disappointed you Norg. Through my left-shift loving eyes it seemed like the intimitank runs go smoother than the others on anything above normal. By my count we used roughly 20 fewer majors in the Moths run on elite than in the run i did on Eulogy.

[maddmatt70]

Yipes, sorry i disappointed you Norg. Through my left-shift loving eyes it seemed like the intimitank runs go smoother than the others on anything above normal. By my count we used roughly 20 fewer majors in the Moths run on elite than in the run i did on Eulogy.

You haven't disappointed. I think the primary reason on the second run that our costs went up was I feel the melee overall did a poorer job then the first run and yes I was on my cleric on the first run and my fighter on the second run because we were not very coordinated as a group when the horned devil hit 20% health. We didn't stay together and fight as a group and nobody pulled the devil away from the group of tanks when the tanks were fighting the add ons. I have run about 4-5 hard runs and I have not noticed a significant difference with or without an intimidate tank (whether the run went less smooth or more smooth; hence, my comment regarding different strategy not necessarily better or worse).

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Not altogether sure this is an accurate statement. Intimidate is an effective strategy, but so is a more heavy dps laden strategy. I have been a part of both and can say that dps still is very very effective. Instead of having an intimidate tank just add a high dps high hit point barbarian even with the curse issue on VOD you can easily make the case that the barbarian as focus is more effective..

High AC high DPS rangers are even better, 'cause they don't need a tenth the heals, and do just as much (if not more) DPS. :)

[maddmatt70]

High AC high DPS rangers are even better, 'cause they don't need a tenth the heals, and do just as much (if not more) DPS. :)

But if they die a few times they start sucking because they dont have the hit points to fall back on..

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

But if they die a few times they start sucking because they dont have the hit points to fall back on..

Who says they're gonna die? The only part that can be real nasty for them is the fire bats, and they can put fire protection on themselves...

[Aeneas]

But if they die a few times they start sucking because they dont have the hit points to fall back on..

Big agree - death and taxes are now one and the same. Beware the death toll. Dolurrh repossessed my house on one of those runs.

[Riot]

just an update - For those whoo use the Jungle Cloak, the leviks bracers and Human recovery stack.

With a 40% total increase the Jungle Cloak regens at 7 a tick.
Jerky pouch still at 2....

Seriously considering trying the 50% boost to see if the jerky will hit at 3 a tick.

[The_Phenx]

Bracers stack with dragonmarks as well..

[Riot]

Been discussing Healing with guild clerics lately...

Here's some interesting commentary.


When I heal Riott I tend to stick to heal scrolls and cure serious spell. I have the full wand/scroll (+40%) and life magic (+40%) enhancement lines. If I feel its worthwhile I will, and have, used divine healing on Riott (I have the second level of this enhancement). I generally don't use divine healing on most "tanks" because the small bursts of healing don't help to offset much damage and I end up using a heal spell anyway. With Riott's particular build it seems to work well, he is able to mitigate damage fairly well and has points invested in the healing amp line.

Heal Scroll 120HP
+ 40% (W&S Mastery) = 168HP
+ 50% (H Amp.) = 252HP

Cure Serious 26HP (Avg.)
+ 40% (Sup Pot) = 36.4HP
+ 40% (Life Mag.) = 47HP
+ 50% (Empower) = 60HP
+ 50% (H Amp.) = 90HP

Can cast one scroll and one spell in a 9 second period = 38 HP/sec

Divine Healing II (2d3 every 2 secs for 30 secs) = 4 HP/sec, 120HP/min (Avg., if not full HP)

We did the math on Regen actually.
DV3 would hit me for about 11-12 HP every 2 seconds with my mods.
Jungle cloak for 7 per 6 seconds
And Ham for 7 per 6 seconds.

All in All I'd heal 47-52 HP per 6 second Round!!!!!


Another Cleric

OK I will have to add to this. I am setup for full healing 9% crit chance, +40% healing, 2.50 x heal on crit, all 3 emprower healing enhancements. I then have 9% crit item, Sup 7. So that is 18% chance to crit with 2.5 times number. I always run with emproper healing on. I only use mass cure, and mass mod. If I am healing you Riott I only use scrolls unless you get burst hit. If I am on timer i use heal spell which his you for about 500 non-crit.
Now when you are tanking dogs in Hound. I just use mass mod and keep your health up as the dogs.
I did notice in VoD the people that had healing bonuses I was healing for alot more.
I do not even have non mass heals on my bar. But that is how I roll.


Cleric 3


Your giong to find that most likely every cleric in the guild heals differently. I'm instinctive in my healing, I don't really factor in numbers. I toss a cure scrit and gage the result. Most melees get the heal, excepting lower hp rogues.

You (**meaning Riott**) heal like a wizard on my radar.

I run all the time
Empowered healing
40% life magic
40% wand and scroll mastery

I load up cure mod(25 mana empowered), cure crit(35 mana empowered), heal(45 mana), mass light(50 mana) and mass mod(55 mana)(along with heal scrolls, mass cure serious scrolls) on my main hotbar. I tend to use heal the most by far. Cure mod is there for speed healing mostly. I don't deal well toggling off IEH.

Crits are for ***** measuring IMO, so i do not spec for em.

LoL

Anyway, there's some guidl persepective clerics on healing me personally.
Seems that they've pretty much stopped using the heal spell on me all together.
We figured and tested that Cure Serious spells can hit me for over 100 Hp. wich is roughly one third of my total.

And a Crit will obviously double that.

With my damage intake being so slow it's actually more mana efficient.
ESPECIALLY when you factor in the Regen capabilities from DV's and self regen.

pretty cool stuff imho.

[Bycrom]

Hey, was wondering what would be the best green steel weapon to build first. Should I go to improve my intimi skill and char or dps? I have 31 at 11, hope to get that to 45 at 16. With a good role, I should be able to agro most critters.

What did your final intimidate skill end up at Riott? I did not find it in this thread.

I see 61 but is that with a 20 role? or is it actaully 61? If so, i have no idea how you got it that hi!

Any help would be awsome

Thraxs, aka Canard 16 Cleric , Thelanis

[Riot]

The Mineral 2 Weapon is a great weapon.
+4 insight AC, and transmuting are the kickers. Pluse the stoneskin buff.

It's a beast to make, but well worth it.

I'll have to get back to you on the Intim skill. Gotta get logged in first.

[binnsr]

IMO, its not worth taking charisma on a weapon for an intimitank.. +CHA skills on an item, yes though..

While a Mineral II weapon is nice and all, I went with Lightning II on my intimitank's weapon for that little extra oomph against acid-immune mobs (like the current crop of Raid bosses :D). Or, I should say, I'm going.... still collecting larges to go to tier III on his sword since I decided to get a set of mineral II goggles out of the way on my other project first :D

More important than what Riot was able to get is the current benchmarks -- if you can't get to a +58/62/63 with buffs, don't bother trying to hold agro in Hound on n/h/e.
Sulu is easier to pin, but I'm not 100% sure on the numbers. A +40 or so seems to be all you need for holding trash mobs and normal bosses.

[Deathseeker]

Dont forget the size penalty on intimidate with your dwarf, which hurts (I think it's -4 against most mobs)...

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Dont forget the size penalty on intimidate with your dwarf, which hurts (I think it's -4 against most mobs)...

No specific size penalty for dwarves, as far as I know. Just halflings.

[Tanka]

No specific size penalty for dwarves, as far as I know. Just halflings.
Correct. Dwarves are Medium size, Halflings are Small.

[Deathseeker]

When fighting against certain mobs I'm definitely seeing it. Maybe its the size difference between you and the mob? So its not dwarf, but anyone fighting a giant gets it?

Sorry to create any confusion...I only run a dwarf intimidater, so my sample size wasn't very large :)

[Tanka]

When fighting against certain mobs I'm definitely seeing it. Maybe its the size difference between you and the mob? So its not dwarf, but anyone fighting a giant gets it?

Sorry to create any confusion...I only run a dwarf intimidater, so my sample size wasn't very large :)
For every size difference there is between you and the mob in question, it's a cumulative -4 to the skill's check. So a Dwarf vs a Giant is at -4, a Halfling vs a Giant is at -8, etc.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

When fighting against certain mobs I'm definitely seeing it. Maybe its the size difference between you and the mob? So its not dwarf, but anyone fighting a giant gets it?


Correct. For each difference in size, you'll have another -4 penalty. So halflings intimidating a giant sized creature will have -8 to their intimidate rolls.

You'll also see some goofy rolls in the hound raid with the pollination effects. First time I noticed that, I thought that my intimidate helmet was broken or something. :D

[Osharan_Tregarth]

More important than what Riot was able to get is the current benchmarks -- if you can't get to a +58/62/63 with buffs, don't bother trying to hold agro in Hound on n/h/e.


What are these numbers based on Binnsr? Are these taking account the penalties from the pollination or something?

Pretty sure that I've at least grabbed the hound (on normal) with a 1 for a roll and 53 intimidate.

Or was that aimed at a halfling build?